Mind-Affecting things don't get Mind-Affected

[Golden Ladybug]

So, Mind-Affecting spells are infamous for being really powerful, but really easy to get immunity to. Sleep, Charm, Dominate, Ego Whip, Mindrape...All of them are really potent, but only against a certain subset of foes.

Now, is there a way of Bypassing that? Obviously, you could Dispel someone's Mind Blank, but is there a way of dealing with Immunities granted by Type, such as Undead or Constructs?

In any case, I doubt that there is a way of doing this, but it doesn't hurt to ask :smallsmile:

[Zaq]

There's a half-written suggested adaptation of the Nightmare Spinner that vaguely suggests that they be able to break through immunity to mind-affecting stuff with their mind-affecting stuff, but it's not really RAW. Overall, it's tough to get past that sort of thing.

[Golden Ladybug]

Let me take a gander at my copy of Complete Mage...

Okay, so its about in the same realm of legality as Unarmed/Arcane Swordsage, and they see a decent amount of play, but you're right about it being half-written and vague. Still, its a start.

Thanks a bunch, Zaq

[Hirax]

Very few things are immune to polymorphing. Baleful polymorph can be used to strip innate mind affecting immunity granted by type, at which point you can mindrape (or whatever) the creature. Ghost trap can be used to make incorporeal foes vulnerable to baleful polymorph, and any way of getting more spells in a turn can be used to cast mindrape before a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its original form. I believe that leaves liches and gaseous form creatures that still need a workaround. edit: oozes and plants also can't be polymorphed apparently.

Necrotic cyst and necrotic dominate can also get by mind affecting immunity.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dread Witch bypasses Fear immunity. How this interacts with blanket immunity to mind-affecting, which most fear effects are, is up to you and your GM.

I generally rule that it allows you to hit things immune to mind-affecting with fear effects unless they are mindless (going by the Intimidation rules), but that is a house-ruling based on game balance and an agreement between GM and player.

[Golden Ladybug]

Yeah, I suppose I can be satisfied with that. Working it out with the DM, or turning what I want to cast Mind-Affecting spells on into something not immune to Mind-Affecting, will probably be the best option.


Very few things are immune to polymorphing. Baleful polymorph can be used to strip innate mind affecting immunity granted by type, at which point you can mindrape (or whatever) the creature. Ghost trap can be used to make incorporeal foes vulnerable to baleful polymorph, and any way of getting more spells in a turn can be used to cast mindrape before a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its original form. I believe that leaves liches and gaseous form creatures that still need a workaround.

Necrotic cyst and necrotic dominate can also get by mind affecting immunity.

Necrotic Dominate doesn't have any Mind-Affecting tags, so its not quite what I'm looking for, but it certainly mimics the effect nicely enough. Damn that Libris Mortis and its creepy Mother Cyst feat...

However, the Polymorph idea is quite nice. Do Mind-Affecting effects that still linger on the target when the Polymorph effect's duration expires get negated by their Immunity, or does it keep on trucking?

[Hirax]

However, the Polymorph idea is quite nice. Do Mind-Affecting effects that still linger on the target when the Polymorph effect's duration expires get negated by their Immunity, or does it keep on trucking?

It would depend on the effect. I'd probably say dominate would stop. However, mindrape wouldn't, due to it being an instantaneous effect. Reverting back to their original form doesn't unscramble their thoughts or cause their memories to become intact, it just removes your ability to manipulate them further. Nor do you unlearn any information you gleaned while you were in their head. This is very much subject to DM interpretation though.

edit: an ad hoc litmus test for whether something would stay might simply be whether dispel magic would end it under normal conditions. Dispel magic, for instance, can dominate person, or polymorph any object and other spells with a duration of permanent, but not instantaneous ones, such as mindrape, reincarnate (in the case of getting their original body back), and wall of stone.

[Acanous]

Dread Witch doesn't give the ability to bypass Mind Effecting Immunity.
See the Fear spell, which is tagged as [Evil][Fear][Necromancy] but not as [Mind Effecting]. So a Dread Witch can hit a Golem with Fear, but not with Phantasmal Killer.

YMMV, though. Just how I'd rule it based on RAW.

[Ellrin]

The feat Requiem (Libris Mortis) let's you affect undead with bardic music, most of which is mind-affecting. But yeah, I don't think there's really much for letting general mind-affecting effects/abilities work on things with racial immunity.

[Thurbane]

There's a +1 metamagic feat from Dragon Mag (reprinted in the Dragon Compendium) called Song of the Dead that allows mind-affecting spells to affect intelligent undead (mindless undead are still immune).

[Benly]

Dread Witch doesn't give the ability to bypass Mind Effecting Immunity.
See the Fear spell, which is tagged as [Evil][Fear][Necromancy] but not as [Mind Effecting]. So a Dread Witch can hit a Golem with Fear, but not with Phantasmal Killer.

YMMV, though. Just how I'd rule it based on RAW.

From the SRD's Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) section under Fear: "All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects."

So there's that.

[Chronos]

Very few things are immune to polymorphing. Baleful polymorph can be used to strip innate mind affecting immunity granted by type, at which point you can mindrape (or whatever) the creature.

Two of the major categories of things immune to mind-effecting, undead and constructs, are also immune to Baleful Polymorph (since it offers a Fort save and doesn't effect objects). Polymorph Any Object, though, will still work.

[stack]

Pathfinder has a +2 meta-magic, Threnodic Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic), that changes a mind-affecting spell to affect ONLY undead.

Also one to make them vulnerable to level/energy drain and death effects.