[3.P] Party Balance Experiment

[Psyren]

If one wanted to DM a game and came up with the following guidelines:

- No T1 or T2 classes
- T3 classes can be played as-is
- T4 classes can freely gestalt with an NPC or T6 class (except Adept.)
- T5 classes can freely gestalt with another T5, T6 or NPC class (except Adept.)

What effect might this have on party balance? Can the lower-tier gestalts keep up with a T3, or will they still be outshone? Are there any key roles that might end up missing from such a party? Are there any general challenges that a 4-man party following these guidelines wouldn't be able to overcome? Has anyone ever run a game using these or similar rules?

Finally, if you wanted to adjust the power level of such a game down just a little further still, how would you do it?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Looks fine to me.
They should have no problems.

[LordBlades]

- T4 classes can freely gestalt with an NPC or T6 class.


Might want to exclude adept from the NPC classes allowed to do this. It's way above any other option imo.

[Psyren]

Might want to exclude adept from the NPC classes allowed to do this. It's way above any other option imo.

Good call - amended.

A party like this wouldn't be missing anything then? (Assuming they made an effort to fill all roles - melee, control, skills, face, potentially a healing class if they wanted one.)

Would they do just as well in a lower-wealth campaign? (Both well compared to CR-appropriate challenges, and well compared to each other.)

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Good call - amended.

A party like this wouldn't be missing anything then? (Assuming they made an effort to fill all roles - melee, control, skills, face, potentially a healing class if they wanted one.)

Would they do just as well in a lower-wealth campaign? (Both well compared to CR-appropriate challenges, and well compared to each other.)
They will not break (too much) the campaign, but if they decide to optimize, they can make trivials most battles.

[OracleofSilence]

Well it should be noted that most Tier 3 classes are capable of becoming tier one with some dedicated work, and even a well built Warmage can become a solid Tier 1 with the right classes (Rainbow Servant if text trumps table).

In line with this, PrC's would need to be carefully restricted to maintain this balance. For example, a Beguiler, humble Tier 3 that it is, can become a veritable (or literal) living God with Shadowcraft Mage. Of course this is all obvious, but prestige classes that alow this may be a bad idea in a game balanced along these lines.

[Gullintanni]

Agreed...PrCing is where I'd see a problem come up. A Warmage//Expert might be problematic with PrCs, but otherwise, the most powerful Gestalt I can see coming out of this is a Monk//Healer. Good Wis synergy. But the fluff actually works pretty well and this character'd present as a semi-competent unarmored priest. Cleric lite :P

[Novawurmson]

Depends a little on where you place each of the new Pathfinder classes (and DSP classes), but I don't think you'd have a problem. Direct would-be Wizards to the Magus and the Alchemist, Clerics to the Inquisitor... Druid might be a little harder. You might want to homebrew a 2/3 casting version of the Druid to make sure there's a "nature caster" option. You might also consider a "2/3 manifesting" option for Psions.

Summoners would probably be the most powerful casters if you rank them as tier 3 (because of their "reduced" spell costs); if you rank them as tier 2, well, they're out of the picture anyway :P

I would say that the only tier 5 classes in Pathfinder are the Fighter and the Cavalier (unless we're talking core-only, in which case the Monk replaces the Cavalier). Remember that Paladins and Monks (and maybe Rogues) are generally considered more tier 4.

Really, the gestalting is kind of unnecessary. Chop off tiers 1, 2 and 5, and three and four can play nice together. Maybe give tier 4's a bonus feat or two?

Edit: I'd just like to say, I'm currently DMing a 3.P party with a Summoner, Rogue, Swift Hunter Ranger, and a Warblade, and part balance is fine; everyone can do something great, everyone can contribute a little to every situation, but nobody can do everything.

[Gullintanni]

I wasn't considering Pathfinder at all in my answer. Or Psionics for that matter. You could probably throw together a Divine Mind/Lurk thing with one of the other T5's to make something pretty competent.

But really that's all I'm seeing here. Your T5//T5 hybrids will act like T3's on the powerful side and high Tier 4's on the low side, being either highly specialized in a niche (most likely Melee) role for T4, or they'll have multiple options that wouldn't be much on their own, but should allow them to participate meaningfully in lots of situations.

The end results should be a game that plays around T3-T4, with Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Bards and Psychic Warriors stealing the show, as examples of mid/high Tier 3s.

With Pathfinder in mind, certain Paladin Archetypes can kick them up to Tier 2-3, so keep that in mind, and Qinggong/Hungry Ghost Monks may actually perform at low Tier 3 or high Tier 4. Zen Archery Monks I'd place around Tier 4 as well.

[Psyren]

They will not break (too much) the campaign, but if they decide to optimize, they can make trivials most battles.

True. If there are any powergamers in the group I might bar them from the T3 choices.


Well it should be noted that most Tier 3 classes are capable of becoming tier one with some dedicated work, and even a well built Warmage can become a solid Tier 1 with the right classes (Rainbow Servant if text trumps table).

In line with this, PrC's would need to be carefully restricted to maintain this balance. For example, a Beguiler, humble Tier 3 that it is, can become a veritable (or literal) living God with Shadowcraft Mage. Of course this is all obvious, but prestige classes that alow this may be a bad idea in a game balanced along these lines.

Argh. That's a layer of complexity I didn't foresee.

Perhaps if one restricted available sources for PrCs, and then modified or denied individual choices on a case-by-case basis?
Rainbow Servant would definitely be out.

Where archetypes are concerned I'm not too worried - I haven't seen any that raised a T3 or below class to T2 just yet, so they would fall into one of the existing categories and be treated accordingly.

[OracleofSilence]

To be fair, in Pathfinder, all classes have been modified a little bit. I would personally argue that most classes have been geared down to the fewer options, so most likely, even a wizard could be fairly easily fit into this play style since a lot of their really broken options come from the PrC's ad general power creep.

Its still a stretch, but more or less possible.

[Gullintanni]

Where archetypes are concerned I'm not too worried - I haven't seen any that raised a T3 or below class to T2 just yet, so they would fall into one of the existing categories and be treated accordingly.

There's only one I'm aware of and it's highly debateable, but the Sacred Servant archetype on a Level 16 Paladin lets them permanently have a Planetar following them around 24/7. Planetars cast as 16th level Clerics, and they're pretty strong in Melee to begin with, so you're basically letting a Tier 4 summon a Tier 1.

The Planetar will never see 9ths, but I would argue this Archetype lands at the bottom of Tier 2, or at the very least the highest possible top end of Tier 3. That's the only one I'd even look at twice given the rules you want to use. Also, it's not until the Paladin can summon said Planetar that I'd peg him at close to Tier 2, so if your game isn't going to get to level 16, then I don't see a problem.

[LordBlades]

Agreed...PrCing is where I'd see a problem come up. A Warmage//Expert might be problematic with PrCs, but otherwise, the most powerful build I can see coming out of this is a Monk//Healer. Good Wis synergy. But the fluff actually works pretty well and this character'd present as a semi-competent unarmored priest. Cleric lite :P

There are other much more powerful builds out there (unless said healer makes it to level 17....hello gate:smallyuk:). Even a straight Dread Necromancer, Beguiler or ubercharger would do much better.

[OracleofSilence]

I can't speak for Dread Necromancers, but straight beguilers (if well played) can even give Tier 1 classes a run for their money. They have a fairly excellent capstone, and a really really good spell list if misdirection is your thing.

[Gullintanni]

There are other much more powerful builds out there (unless said healer makes it to level 17....hello gate:smallyuk:). Even a straight Dread Necromancer, Beguiler or ubercharger would do much better.

I was referring to the most powerful Gestalt build using Psyrens rules. Of course the T3s will outperform the Monk//Healer. Sorry if I was unclear.

Edited original post for clarity.

[OracleofSilence]

Regardless, one other thing needs to be considered. A lot of monsters would become immensely powerful relative to characters, For example, not only would Solars still be a fairly deadly combatant, they would now have nearly unmatched spellcasting might. Mainy Demons and Devils would have access to SLA's that characters would be hard pressed to replicate. And ToB would stomp its way through the universe cackling with righteous adamantine edged glee, exhorting their pitiful item crafters to greater lengths of servitude (not that that is a bad thing f course...)

[Gullintanni]

I don't see ToB classes taking over the world, as it were. Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Wildshape Rangers, Binders and PsyWars would be just as potent as ever. And I'd rather play any of them over a ToB class.

I have nothing against ToB, in fact I like the idea. I've just never learned the system, so I'd be inclined towards other options. Not to mention, the five classes I mentioned above are all awesome. :smalltongue:

[OracleofSilence]

Well not maybe to that scale, but they would suddenly be a lot more then "just the best a warrior can do". Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Wilders would indeed remain as good as or better then them, but that is still a lot closer to the top then before.

[Psyren]

There's only one I'm aware of and it's highly debateable, but the Sacred Servant archetype on a Level 16 Paladin lets them permanently have a Planetar following them around 24/7. Planetars cast as 16th level Clerics, and they're pretty strong in Melee to begin with, so you're basically letting a Tier 4 summon a Tier 1.

Good call; I'd probably end up tweaking that substantially.


Regardless, one other thing needs to be considered. A lot of monsters would become immensely powerful relative to characters, For example, not only would Solars still be a fairly deadly combatant, they would now have nearly unmatched spellcasting might. Mainy Demons and Devils would have access to SLA's that characters would be hard pressed to replicate. And ToB would stomp its way through the universe cackling with righteous adamantine edged glee, exhorting their pitiful item crafters to greater lengths of servitude (not that that is a bad thing f course...)

I'm not too worried about ToB monsters - after all, all three ToB classes are eligible choices under these rules, so it comes down to proper CR-assignment

I also agree that there are definitely monsters with T1-2 power that would be tough fights under this system... but I think a well-built T3 can handle them, especially if the DM plays them as suggested in their entries. For instance, a Pit Fiend would be a very hard fight under this system, but still beatable provided it is fought at a CR-appropriate level. It is loathe to use its Wish, so a brutal party could take it out quickly enough before it could, and if they're high enough then at-will Blasphemy isn't as lethal as it sounds etc.

[OracleofSilence]

I'm not too worried about ToB monsters - after all, all three ToB classes are eligible choices under these rules, so it comes down to proper CR-assignment

I was technically talking about the classes, but I should have been more clear. The point i was attempting to make though, is that in a weird way, this would penalize lower tiers even more. Low tiers would now lose access to most of the buffs that makes them playable.

Just something to consider.

[Gullintanni]

I also agree that there are definitely monsters with T1-2 power that would be tough fights under this system... but I think a well-built T3 can handle them, especially if the DM plays them as suggested in their entries. For instance, a Pit Fiend would be a very hard fight under this system, but still beatable provided it is fought at a CR-appropriate level. It is loathe to use its Wish, so a brutal party could take it out quickly enough before it could, and if they're high enough then at-will Blasphemy isn't as lethal as it sounds etc.

I think that's the nice thing about this kind of system though. A properly prepared T1 can steamroll any CR appropriate encounter with relative ease. Mind Blank and True Seeing are conveniences, for example.

In a T3 world, Mind Blank and True Seeing become commodities. They're extremely difficult to obtain. CR appropriate creatures become a much greater struggle. All in all, I approve :smallamused:


I was technically talking about the classes, but I should have been more clear. The point i was attempting to make though, is that in a weird way, this would penalize lower tiers even more. Low tiers would now lose access to most of the buffs that makes them playable.


I feel like I was just having this conversation :smallwink:, but an IC Bard would make up for lack of a buffbot Cleric...at least where combat prowess is concerned. The rest you can hopefully make up for via a clever gestalt.

[OracleofSilence]

In retrospect, that is true. I would only recommend this syle of game to veteran players though.