Babylon 5 : Why are you posting here? [Spoiler] [Archive]

Cikomyr

2012-02-03, 04:44 PM

Hello! I just went through the entire serie (including the actually interesting, albeit sub-par and at times tedious Season 5. The worst parts, overall, were the love scenes between Byron and Lyta).

Well, after a bit o' break and a season of Battlestar Galactica, I decided to go back to B5 again, and watching everything with the perspective of hindsight.

A few things I was wondering:

Do you think Ironheart became relatively on the same scale as the Vorlons/First Ones? He said "see you in a million years", do you think it was him we saw at the end of the "Future Perspective" season 4 episode? Why wasn't Kosh and the Vorlons more involved in this event? After all, psychic power is right in their "interest" domain!

The Corps. Why was the Corps allied with the Shadows? Wouldn't it had been a nice surprise reveal if the Corps's "benefactors" were actually the Vorlons? (used as foreshadowing of the Vorlons's ruthlessness before the genocidal hammer fell). After all, the Corps's promoted ideals of ruthless obedience was more into the Vorlons's lawful philosophy of disciplines. Plus, who else than the Vorlons could help the Corps boost psychic powers?

Also, the Vorlons clearly declared dibs on the Humans (or so understood from Kosh's words in "Shadows and Portents". Would make sense if the Vorlons already started their agenda.

I felt really sorry for G'Kar after re-watching "Mind War". He said the fact that there were things bigger than us, that we couldn't understand, to be a reassuring thing. Well, squat with that after season 4, eh?!?

Aotrs Commander

2012-02-03, 05:44 PM

Me and my Mum watched through most of it (we have just got Crusade, the Lost Tales and the epilogue episode to get around to watching) about a year or so, really the first time I'd watched it since it was first on. Twenty years later, I could appreciate it on new levels, and I think it still stands the test of time as being the best sci-fo show.

Hell, some of the starship battles were really, really tense, (the one between the Earth Force and B5 after it went independant was one of the best), something that Star Trek and Andromeda didn't quite manage to get to that same level.

The special effects actually held up much better than I thought they might, actually...

warty goblin

2012-02-03, 06:28 PM

Hell, some of the starship battles were really, really tense, (the one between the Earth Force and B5 after it went independant was one of the best), something that Star Trek and Andromeda didn't quite manage to get to that same level.

The special effects actually held up much better than I thought they might, actually...
There really is something about the FX that does stand up better than it should. Part of it I suspect is that the art design is generally very strong, so the smaller poly count and lower res textures don't stand out as much as they otherwise might. They also look a lot better Season 2 and onwards, both technically and in terms of camera direction.

But yeah, B5 is one of my favorites, I think I've watched all of it at least twice, and much of it three or four times. There's some episodes I don't like as well anymore, so I skip, but overall it's absolutely stood the test of time. Severed Dreams is without a doubt my favorite TV/movie space battle ever.

Cikomyr

2012-02-03, 06:41 PM

I just love Strazynsky's love for every. single. details. Even in SF shots or background elements, everything was carefully planned.

He'd hand-pick which aliens, which models would make an appearance, because he already had an explanation planned out for it, even if it would never actually come up in the plot. Truly, a master of storywriting. I understand why the Giant looks up to him.

(although I could hardly say Rich is a pushover in the matter of quality storytelling)

Cyrano

2012-02-03, 07:50 PM

The Corps. Why was the Corps allied with the Shadows? Wouldn't it had been a nice surprise reveal if the Corps's "benefactors" were actually the Vorlons? (used as foreshadowing of the Vorlons's ruthlessness before the genocidal hammer fell). After all, the Corps's promoted ideals of ruthless obedience was more into the Vorlons's lawful philosophy of disciplines. Plus, who else than the Vorlons could help the Corps boost psychic powers?

Also, the Vorlons clearly declared dibs on the Humans (or so understood from Kosh's words in "Shadows and Portents". Would make sense if the Vorlons already started their agenda.

While I agree that Corps ideals are totally in line with the Vorlons, I've always thought there were two reasons they weren't in league together. First of all, an controlling authority is a Vorlon ideal. That authority is the Vorlon Empire. I'm not sure they would care overly much about the governmental form of what is, to them, a gaggle of children closely matching their own. Maybe when they've "matured" and their opinions could be seen, generously, to "matter." Secondly, coups, shadowy secrets, ruthlessness, pretty much the actual achievements of the Corps are also totally Shadow ideals. There was a civil war that came out of it too. Pretty Shadowy, I've always thought. And just like the Vorlons, I've felt the Shadows mostly cared for results.

J-H

2012-02-03, 08:51 PM

One reason the FX hold up is that they aren't doing shots just for "wow cool, look at the special effects!" All the shots are showing something happening to tell the audience about what is going on.

Also, actual displays of inertia and realistic flight mechanics!

Now, for those who dare a dark tale spanning a decade or more, of dastardly deeds, detailed history, displayed n a over a million words:

http://www.b5-dark-mirror.co.uk/

The mirror is dark indeed, and you shall never look at B5 quite the same... for it fits.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-04, 01:10 AM

I'm currently rewatching the show for the first time since it came out (my husband is watching it for the first time) and I have to say I'm amazed it even managed to catch an 7-9 year old's interest to begin with. (But then again we're talking about the same kid who watched the x-files before going to bed without any issues...)

What I really like about it is the fact that it actually has a proper, overarching plot with very few plot holes in it, really the writing is more on the level of a good novel than a sci-fi show. (No offense meant to start trek and andromeda here, I'm a fan of them myself, but their plot holes could swallow planets, and in the case of andromeda I believe it did...) And the attention to detail, read up on some of the "fun facts" about the show sometime and you'll see what I mean. Things such as NASA wanting to use the star fury design (don't think they ever did use it, but still...) to move stuff around in space; the show being the first to use newtonian principles for their spacecrafts meaning they actually behaved like a spacecraft and not an airplane. Or my favorite, B5 actually does rotate at a speed that would create near Earth gravity on the station. Does those things actually matter in the show? Not really, but for those who do know and do notice it does adds to the suspension of disbelief.

And something that always bugged me about say star trek. Meet one alien of one race and you've met them all, a klingon is a klingon and a vulcan is a vulcan and so on. But Babylon 5 actually took care to give them depth and personality. Sure they have very different cultures as is to be expected, and of course it colors who they are (like a lying Minbari? Might happen under extreme circumstances, but not likely. A Centauri on the other hand? Yhea pretty likely.) but they're still individuals. And of course that things aren't black and white all the time. Well except for Sheridan, he tends to always get showed as being right or doing the right thing no matter what. Sure it's a bit of a personality trait, but sometimes the hero portrayal of him rubs me the wrong way.

And I'm rambling, so I'll stop with this. In my opinion B5, while it might be in use of a little remastering to get it up to HD quality, still sets the bar when it comes to sci-fi's and so far, in my opinion, nothing in the same category has even come close again. (In it's own category I mean sci-fis that are set far into the future and takes themselves seriously.)

Corvus

2012-02-04, 02:48 AM

B5 was my first sci-fi show - I never got into Trek or Star Wars but right from the start I was hooked on B5. Only Firefly rivals it as my favourite sci-fi show still.

I've just started rewatching it myself, and am 7 episodes into season one. With hindsight you see things that at first you didn't.

Re: Ironheart. Yes, he became a 'First one', or the equivalent of what the humans became one million years later. The B plot of that ep involved the Walkers of Sigma 957 which on first viewing are just a mystery but in hindsight you can see that there is a commonality between the A & B plots.

Coidzor

2012-02-04, 03:08 AM

dehro

2012-02-04, 03:20 AM

we have just got Crusade, the Lost Tales and the epilogue episode to get around to watching

don't bother.. the lost tales are decent filler...crusade is utter crap. underproduced/financed, badly put together, sub par acting, even lower quality CGI.. a product that was dropped halfway through and still somehow cobbled together.. and it shows
it's like watching some of the worst episodes of Hercules..in the wrong order.

Aotrs Commander

2012-02-04, 04:59 AM

don't bother.. the lost tales are decent filler...crusade is utter crap. underproduced/financed, badly put together, sub par acting, even lower quality CGI.. a product that was dropped halfway through and still somehow cobbled together.. and it shows
it's like watching some of the worst episodes of Hercules..in the wrong order.

I have already seen Crusade; when it first came out. I think it had a lot of potential, and I liked the characters. The fact that chronologically, it's a bit of a mess is a shame, though not the fault of the show (particularly as they were going to try fixing it later down the line). Bearing those faults in mind, I think it still hols up. Not as much as B5 itself, but there you go. It's early culling was a tragedy, as much as the failure of Legend of the Rangers was (that had a lot of potential, too.)

But even B5 suffered with the executive meddling, which is why we got the space-shatteringly awesome season 4, and then the less good season 5, since they'd wrapped up nearly all of the previous plotlones and had to make one self-contained. So it was ever liekly that it couldn't be as good as season 4!

Andromeda was really good in the first season, season and a half, and then steadily tailed off as it went on. By the time they hit season 5, I think it had probably just barely managed to stay it's welcome, and I'm pretty non-critical at the best of times. (I liked the SW prequels, for example...!)

As far as sci-fi shows go overall, I think Stargate SG-1, in the end, is the only one that comes close to B5 (I didn't mentioned in last time, as one can hardly accuse SG-1 of having many full-on starship battles! They did a few, granted, but not to the same level of proficiency - as of course, it wasn't like they used starships nearly as much...)

B5 had a lot more (often understated) humour than I remember - which was excellent - but Stargate always had a sort of levity to it (I blame the entire cast and crew for that) that particularly draws me. Seriously, they did a documentary on Stargate on the Lowdown and it was absolutely side-splittingly hilarious. Also, the 200th episode is the only time I laughed so hard I threw up. (Which is double impressive, what with me being a Lich and all. Atlantis (of which I've only seen the first couple of seasons, I think) was mostly made by Rodney, and though it was good, it never quite approached the same level as SG-1's dynamics at their best.

Cikomyr

2012-02-04, 11:59 AM

Oh 12 gods were those horrible. Hated that entire plotline. :smallyuk:

The idea behind the plot was interesting, to say the least. Some moments were awesome (Bester single-handlely mind-manning a groupd of 20 telepaths in seconds), but overall, the story was weak, stretched, and stupid.

SERIOUSLY, BYRON? Your first card on the table when dealing with the Alliance is to REVEAL YOU HAVE STOLEN ALL THEIR SECRETS?!?!

Couldn't you just have ASKED first, garnered sympathy, and then blackmail a few of the reticent delegates with your data? You have much to learn.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-04, 01:36 PM

Aotrs Commander

2012-02-04, 02:03 PM

I honestly don't blame B5 for it's bad season 5 myself. It was originally intended to run for five seasons, then they got the word that after season 4 it'd get cancelled so they moved everything up to season 4, then with season 4 done they changed their mind and let the show have it's 5th season, meaning they somehow had to fill it out with something else. So I tend to think of season 5 as an epilogue season, optional, not quite as good as the main story, but still part of it and a nice way to wind things down.

Granted I've just hit season 3 in my rewatch so my opinion on season 5 might change once I get to it, right now I'm just going by what I remember.

Exactly. They did the best they could with what the had left over from season 4, and had enough time to fit in one season.

Also, yes, Byron annoyed the crap out of me, and I hated that he screwed up Lyta, who was, until they got through that story line, a rather more likeable character. (Me and Mum both felt sorry for Zack in that one seen in River of Souls with her - they would have been a much more interesting couple.) Byron just had the sort of attitude, as Zaphod Beeblebrox would have put it, you just wanted to hit with a brick.

Ravens_cry

2012-02-04, 10:23 PM

warty goblin

2012-02-04, 10:32 PM

As someone with a certain fascination for early CGI and hearing a lot of good things about Babylon 5, I dove in through the magic of streaming video.
And . . .eh, some of the characters were all right, but something about the acting for many of them just set my teeth on edge. I don't know how to describe it, which also infuriates me because translating sensation into words is one of the few things I am good at.
Too high expectations?
Again, I don't know.
The first season is not the best. It's the part you watch so season 2 makes sense. And the first episodes of season 1 are probably some of the worst of the entire show. What B5 does well are long plot arcs leading up to one or two brilliant episodes where everything hits the fan at once. Once the show gets going things can start to build, but at the beginning there really isn't any arc going yet. I find it worth the slower beginning to get there, but there's no denying that the first time through the opening is rather weak.

(It actually gets better the second time, because you get to notice all the important bits.)

Unless you started with the pilot. If you did, try very hard to forget it, because the pilot is godawful.

Corvus

2012-02-04, 10:57 PM

Unless you started with the pilot. If you did, try very hard to forget it, because the pilot is godawful.

Yeah, it is pretty bad. It was what got me hooked on B5 though, as bad as it was. I wanted to know what Kosh looked like...

McStabbington

2012-02-04, 11:44 PM

B5 is a bit like a reverse-turd sandwich. There's a lot of good stuff in there, it's just that you've got to get past the crap bookends.

That being said, it's important to remember what B5 is good for. Put simply, it's the very first sci-fi show to move past the episode-by-episode format and tell one overarching story. And the overarching story? It's actually pretty killer, and I think still holds up to this day as an excellent long-form story. Moreover, in that story, you have some characters that undergo some very significant change, growth and genuine pathos. Without going too far into it, I still think that Lennier and Marcus Cole are two of my favorite literary characters, of any kind, in any medium.

But killer story doesn't necessarily equate to killer series, and I can certainly see why there are non-fans and there are detractors. The budget was always shoestring, the CGI was often shoddy and, let's face it, a lot of the actors in this series were not very good. Commander Sinclair could give Harry Kim a run for his money as most wooden main cast member in a science-fiction show ever, Sheridan could be incredibly hammy at times and there's a reason why the actress who played Lyta is known primarily for her stunt work. If you take the best of B5 and compare it straight on with it's peers within the sci-fi genre, particularly DS9 and TNG in the acting department, and it's not even a contest. Only a few actors (namely Jurasik and Katsulas) could even possibly compare with an average Patrick Stewart performance, and when you compare the best efforts of Picard with the best of Mollari or G'Kar, Stewart blows them out of the water. The Long Twilight Struggle will make you cry. The Inner Light will make you sob years afterwards.

So yeah, I think it's a very good show. More than that, it's deeply underrated by every fan of genre television, and never got the appreciation it deserves. Not only that, it's a forerunner of every modern genre television show: in retrospect, TNG was the last great episodic-format science fiction show, while Babylon 5 was ahead even of Deep Space Nine in creating one large, overarching story arc and then following through on it. But it's also got some very stiff competition at the very top of that science fiction pyramid. Firefly, the first two seasons of Battlestar Galactica, and even Deep Space Nine are all serious contenders that many respects are superior programs.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-05, 01:43 AM

And before anyone comes a long to point out that Deep Space Nine actually started airing before Babylon 5 (which is true) Babylon 5's overarching plot and the outlines for the episodes were already written long before that.

And I agree sometimes the acting can be a bit... awkward (as I've pointed out, Sheridan often grates on my nerves) but I do find that I more or less always enjoy some characters and the acting by those actors. (Londo, G'Kar and Ivanova..) But even with the acting not being as great as TNG (come on it has Patrick Stewart which makes any argument completely and utterly irrelevant, no matter ow much I hate Picard as a character.) the character development is far, far better. I mean there's not much difference between a TNG character compared to the first episode of the show and the last. (I wont' say anything about DS9 I've only seen the first 18 episodes of the first season and I've been told to not judge the show by that.) B5 However? Londo Mollari in season 1 compared to say season 4? Two very, very different character. Same with G'Kar and most of the other characters, even if Londo and G'Kar are the most obvious examples.

As for the Pilot, lets just all agree to pretend that never happened, please? >.<

Lord Seth

2012-02-05, 01:58 AM

factotum

2012-02-05, 09:23 AM

Jimorian

2012-02-05, 09:57 AM

Regarding the whole season 4/season 5 thing, the way I see it is that if the show had gone as planned for the 5 year run instead of being interrupted by the assumed cancellation, what turned out to be season 5 would have been the primary "B" arc of the combined 4 and 5 seasons, while season 4 was the "A" arc of those 2 years squeezed into 1.

Somewhere in the back of my mind is a project to re-edit the last 2 seasons to reflect this idea and see how it works, but then I regain my sanity. :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry

2012-02-05, 10:18 AM

And DS9 did something similar as well and technically aired before Babylon 5.
By less than two months admittedly.

paddyfool

2012-02-05, 10:29 AM

And DS9 did something similar as well and technically aired before Babylon 5.
By less than two months admittedly.

DS9 pretty much has to concede precedence to B5 on this front - see post #19 by Nikita.

Mercenary Pen

2012-02-05, 10:44 AM

That being said, it's important to remember what B5 is good for. Put simply, it's the very first sci-fi show to move past the episode-by-episode format and tell one overarching story. And the overarching story?

What about Robotech, which came about 10 years earlier? (and for that matter, Robotech's source material came even earlier)

I think you mean the first non-animated American-made sci-fi show to move past the episodic alien/planet of the week format- considering that the Japanese for example had already produced a number of shows that did this including Super Dimensional Fortress Macross- which was later converted into Robotech, though I would tend to cite shows like Space Battleship Yamato (Star Blazers in the US), and Legend of the Galactic Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_Galactic_Heroes) as prime examples.

To be honest, I'd say that B5 has pretty much spoiled me for any series that doesn't have a coherent overarching plotline, simply because that plays to my preferences, and it made me realise how dire the alternative was.

Yora

2012-02-05, 10:47 AM

The Main Plot of DS9 starts at the last episode of Season 2. There were a few hints dropped earlier, but I'm not sure if they were just browsing through little details of the first season that would make good hooks for a bigger plot.
Before that, there are some self-contained story arcs with power strugles in the bajoran government, but no actual overarching storyline. That was all pretty much alien of the week.

My favorite part of B5 is Londo and G'Kar. To me, the humans are just supporting cast who get a lot of screen time. But in the end, they are just part of the setting in which Londo and G'Kar are making their character developments.
The humans have their wars and explosions, and Sharidan has some interesting, but rather simple parts with Kosh, but all the deeper parts that reflect on things that have real meaning revolve around these two men who hate each other, but are completely defined by their relationship to the other.

dehro

2012-02-05, 11:36 AM

Ravens_cry

2012-02-05, 11:42 AM

@Yora:
Oh, I agree, the interactions of Londo and G'Kar were certainly the highlights of what I saw. Too bad the other Centauri actors couldn't have Londos simply fabulous accent.

Mercenary Pen

2012-02-05, 11:45 AM

regarding the DS9 Vs. B5 controversy...I seem to remember reading somewhere that the author of B5 tried pitching his "creature" to the star trek franchise, was well received but in the end told they weren't going to run it, and then found other producers to shoot a revised product which ended up being B5..
and then found out that Star Trek came out with DS9 which borrowed heavily from the material he'd presented "back then"... and lawsuits ensued..

can anyone tell me if this is a correct recollection or if I've dreamt it up?

Well, that rings a bell, but I can't really say that it's 100% accurate- to the internet.

Edit: This is what wikipedia turned up on the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_trek_deep_space_nine#Deep_Space_Nine_and_Baby lon_5)

Ravens_cry

2012-02-05, 11:49 AM

@Yora:
The Prophets storyline of DS9 started in the very first episode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissary_%28Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine%29) and was basically the bookends for the series.

warty goblin

2012-02-05, 11:59 AM

Who did what first in terms of lengthy plot arcs doesn't really interest me. B5 did them, and did them well. That should really be all that matters.

Weezer

2012-02-05, 12:39 PM

Who did what first in terms of lengthy plot arcs doesn't really interest me. B5 did them, and did them well. That should really be all that matters.

Especially since "first" in this case is a matter of a few months, it's like arguing who "really" invented calculus, Newton or Lebniz.

Ravens_cry

2012-02-05, 01:01 PM

Coidzor

2012-02-05, 01:09 PM

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-05, 01:30 PM

There is one advantage of a more episodic format, accessibility. You can watch almost any episode of TNG and enjoy it in itself, but a strictly arc based show you'd pretty much have to watch from the beginning to understand the context.
In this day and age of DVDs of series, that's less of a problem, but it is still a considerable investment of time.

I can't argue with you on that one, even if I know people who's jumped into things like B5 right in the middle and still enjoyed it a great deal, but you're going to get "wtf?!" moments and miss out on a whole lot of goodies when you do that.

Biggest pain is when TV channels rerun old, good shows like this and then move the episodes around. Like the first rerun of the show in Sweden they started with the pilot, then picked some episodes from season 3, then back to season one, then season 4 and so on. They pretty much showed them by the viever ratings they had gotten the first time around. >.<

warty goblin

2012-02-05, 01:32 PM

@Yora:
Oh, I agree, the interactions of Londo and G'Kar were certainly the highlights of what I saw. Too bad the other Centauri actors couldn't have Londos simply fabulous accent.

Back in the rare occasions that I held nerdy enough company, I'd occasionally talk in Londo's marvelously ludicrous accent.

I also used to have Talk like a Vorlon days every now and then, just annoy people. The rules were simple; if the question was open ended answer yes or no. If it was a yes or no question, reply with an ambiguous sentence.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-05, 02:13 PM

Back in the rare occasions that I held nerdy enough company, I'd occasionally talk in Londo's marvelously ludicrous accent.

I also used to have Talk like a Vorlon days every now and then, just annoy people. The rules were simple; if the question was open ended answer yes or no. If it was a yes or no question, reply with an ambiguous sentence.

You forgot "answer any statement about how annoying you're being with "Good." and walk away." :p

Ravens_cry

2012-02-05, 02:23 PM

Biggest pain is when TV channels rerun old, good shows like this and then move the episodes around. Like the first rerun of the show in Sweden they started with the pilot, then picked some episodes from season 3, then back to season one, then season 4 and so on. They pretty much showed them by the viever ratings they had gotten the first time around. >.<
Oh dear gods!:smalleek: That's just, ow, you have my sympathies.

Coidzor

2012-02-05, 02:51 PM

Biggest pain is when TV channels rerun old, good shows like this and then move the episodes around. Like the first rerun of the show in Sweden they started with the pilot, then picked some episodes from season 3, then back to season one, then season 4 and so on. They pretty much showed them by the viever ratings they had gotten the first time around. >.<

...Words... Words fail me. Utterly. :smallconfused:

How are people that fail? How?

Yora

2012-02-05, 03:29 PM

They thought it was just like a saturday morning cartoon. Those usually don't have any plot.

Lord Seth

2012-02-05, 04:45 PM

And before anyone comes a long to point out that Deep Space Nine actually started airing before Babylon 5 (which is true) Babylon 5's overarching plot and the outlines for the episodes were already written long before that.By that logic, anyone who wrote up an overarching plot for a series should be credited as the first, even if the series was never picked up.

A better reason for giving Babylon 5 this over Deep Space 9 is that Babylon 5 launched into its arc earlier.
regarding the DS9 Vs. B5 controversy...I seem to remember reading somewhere that the author of B5 tried pitching his "creature" to the star trek franchise, was well received but in the end told they weren't going to run it, and then found other producers to shoot a revised product which ended up being B5..
and then found out that Star Trek came out with DS9 which borrowed heavily from the material he'd presented "back then"... and lawsuits ensued..

can anyone tell me if this is a correct recollection or if I've dreamt it up?I don't believe there were any lawsuits. You can see what the creator of Babylon 5 said about it here (http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-3367) though.

Coidzor

2012-02-05, 08:55 PM

They thought it was just like a saturday morning cartoon. Those usually don't have any plot.

...They thought that a prime time television show that focused on a long-running overarching plot was a saturday morning cartoon.

Well, I hope they sacked whoever had the bright idea to not even watch any of the show before they bought it. Or failed to pick up on it while they were translating the bloody thing before they aired the translations. That's the real humdinger.

factotum

2012-02-06, 02:40 AM

You can see what the creator of Babylon 5 said about it here (http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-3367) though.

Is there a list anywhere of these "major, non-generic points" where the DS9 pilot was similar to the B5 one? I don't recall either of them particularly clearly, but I certainly don't remember noticing any similarities at the time (other than them both being set on space stations, of course).

dehro

2012-02-06, 05:56 AM

Is there a list anywhere of these "major, non-generic points" where the DS9 pilot was similar to the B5 one? I don't recall either of them particularly clearly, but I certainly don't remember noticing any similarities at the time (other than them both being set on space stations, of course).

there ya go (http://www.firstones.com/wiki/Similarities_between_Babylon_5_and_Star_Trek:_Deep _Space_Nine)

SanguisAevum

2012-02-06, 06:32 AM

Had to post in this one.

B5 is, for me, the best of all the sci-fi shows to date (Your wrong sheldon Cooper, your wrong!) and i'll tell you why.

Three reasons...

The Story.
The characters.
The "believability"

I LOVE the fact that the entire show is planned out and there is ONE defeinitive story to tell. When i sit down to watch my collection i find myself wanting "one more episode" in order to get to the reveals. I just dont get that with other shows and their one story per episode format. Plus... the story itself is brilliantly crafted, you can tell it is well thought out and very well planned.

I second the notion that Londo and G'Kar provide some of the best intercharacter conflict, best character growth, and in my opinion... some of the best acting i have seen in a sc fi series. i really FEEL their hatred, their pain, and their loss when i watch those scenes.

Lastly, unlike most other sci fi shows... i actually can believe that such technology and such a situaton, could be possible in some future.

I find it "believable" in a way that shows like star trek and other just aren't...

Yora

2012-02-06, 06:51 AM

there ya go (http://www.firstones.com/wiki/Similarities_between_Babylon_5_and_Star_Trek:_Deep _Space_Nine)

Which includes lots of very generic points.

dehro

2012-02-06, 07:10 AM

Which includes lots of very generic points.

and a fair number of rather specific ones

DeltaEmil

2012-02-06, 07:10 AM

My key favorite scene in the entire series is when Londo looks down in horror on the Narn homeworld, when the Centauri fleet starts bombing the planet with their mass drivers.

A scene showing the tragic path of Londo Mollari, and the blood that is shed for his (ultimately futile) dreams of a strong Centauri Republic.

dehro

2012-02-06, 07:12 AM

I kinda like vir cotto's happy moment.

Aotrs Commander

2012-02-06, 07:19 AM

I kinda like vir cotto's happy moment.

The "and wave like this" moment? That, for me, was the highlight of the entire series. It was fragging AWESOME.

Cikomyr

2012-02-06, 07:29 AM

I there first season, there is an episode which plot is about the rise of xenophobia from the humans (and was the opening note to the "Let's make Ivanova emotionally suffer constantly").

I remember when the guy is telling his plan to Sinclair: "Our associates will kill all aliens ambassadors on Earth while we will kill all four major alien ambassador here. Delenn, G'Kar, Londo and Kosh".

I remember telling myself: "How about you start with Kosh. If you succeed, I'll join you!"

dehro

2012-02-06, 09:11 AM

The "and wave like this" moment? That, for me, was the highlight of the entire series. It was fragging AWESOME.

that's the one.

the low point on the other hand was Delenn's morphing into half-human..it makes sense I guess, plotwise..but it also doesn't.

Cikomyr

2012-02-06, 09:26 AM

that's the one.

the low point on the other hand was Delenn's morphing into half-human..it makes sense I guess, plotwise..but it also doesn't.

Don't leave such bomb without further explanation mate! :smalltongue:

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-06, 09:32 AM

that's the one.

the low point on the other hand was Delenn's morphing into half-human..it makes sense I guess, plotwise..but it also doesn't.

Agreed, I like the character development that follows I suppose, but it could have been done without the half-human thing going on physically at least. Especially since the Minbari is such a spiritual people that just her getting closer to human values and ways of thinking would most likely have had the same effects in the long run. (Her getting kicked out of the Gray Council and so on)

The "and wave like this." scene is absolutely epic, and a little disturbing since it shows off a side of Vir we didn't even know existed up until that point, but it is a wonderful moment.

Also am I imagining things, but I could swear Na'Thots voice changed between the first season and the second one? Did they switch actor for the character or am I going insane?

factotum

2012-02-06, 09:50 AM

You mean Na'Toth? She was played by Mary Kay Adams and Julie Caitlin Brown--not sure which way round they appeared. But yes, she was played by two different actresses.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-06, 09:55 AM

You mean Na'Toth? She was played by Mary Kay Adams and Julie Caitlin Brown--not sure which way round they appeared. But yes, she was played by two different actresses.

Yhea I got the spelling wrong, but at least now I know I wasn't imagining things.

Also I tend to like the moments with Lennier and Vir meeting in the bar, complaining and finishing each others sentences. I don't know why but I do like them.

pffh

2012-02-06, 09:55 AM

My key favorite scene in the entire series is when Londo looks down in horror on the Narn homeworld, when the Centauri fleet starts bombing the planet with their mass drivers.

You and me both friend. The look on Londos face as the bombardment starts is chilling and is one of the main reason I either go full mass drivers in sword of the stars if I want to be an "evil" empire but avoid them if I want to be a "good" empire.

Cikomyr

2012-02-06, 10:06 AM

It was a powerful scene, for sure. Although I really loved G'Kar's 29 lashes. Such buildup. Such emotions. And all in a countdown we knew EVERYTHING hinged upon...

Another scene:

Delenn: This is Ambassador Delenn of the Minbari to Earth Force vessels. Babylon 5 is under our protection. Retreat, or be destroyed.

Human Commander: Negative Minbari fleet. We have jurisdiction here. Do not force us to open fire.

Delenn: the only human commander to ever survive battle with a Minbari ship is behind me. You, are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else

Damn it.. I got chills..

factotum

2012-02-06, 12:52 PM

Damn it.. I got chills..

Especially since that scene occurs not long after the Churchill, badly damaged and unable to fight, deliberately rams one of the enemy ships since that's the only way they can still do any damage...

Muz

2012-02-06, 04:44 PM

Oh 12 gods were those horrible. Hated that entire plotline. :smallyuk:

Also, yes, Byron annoyed the crap out of me, and I hated that he screwed up Lyta, who was, until they got through that story line, a rather more likeable character. (Me and Mum both felt sorry for Zack in that one seen in River of Souls with her - they would have been a much more interesting couple.) Byron just had the sort of attitude, as Zaphod Beeblebrox would have put it, you just wanted to hit with a brick.

I always refer to Byron as "telepath Fabio." I HATE that guy. I do sometimes wonder if his low WIS score might be a little easier to take without the hair.

I wonder, suddenly, what it would be like if someone were to remake B5. It happened to BSG, after all. I think it would be a bad idea (yes, there's room for improvement in many places, but also so many potential pitfalls in doing a remake that I've got to think it wouldn't end in anything but disaster), but it's not as if the entertainment industry hasn't tried things so foolish before...

pffh

2012-02-06, 04:49 PM

Get the whats his name that made the original to make a new one. But with a twist. You see he says he flipped a coin to determine if Londo or G'kar would be the villain and this time around he the other guy is the villain. I'd like to see how that would change the story.

Kato

2012-02-06, 04:54 PM

I liked the scene when Garibaldi and G'Kar met again after G'Kar was imprisoned (I think) and he walks up to him and Garibaldi gets all intimidated and then he hugs him like a teddy bear or something...
Something like that did happen at some point... right? Right?

Heck, I need to watch that show again...

Cikomyr

2012-02-06, 04:59 PM

I always refer to Byron as "telepath Fabio." I HATE that guy. I do sometimes wonder if his low WIS score might be a little easier to take without the hair.

I wonder, suddenly, what it would be like if someone were to remake B5. It happened to BSG, after all. I think it would be a bad idea (yes, there's room for improvement in many places, but also so many potential pitfalls in doing a remake that I've got to think it wouldn't end in anything but disaster), but it's not as if the entertainment industry hasn't tried things so foolish before...

The thing is, B5 was a very satisfying and filling story to begin with. You don't need to re-do it much except correct a few key story elements like the one I mentioned in the OP (like the Vorlon/Psi Corp alliance).

If there is a serie I want to see a remake of, it'd be a dual Voyager/Deep Space 9 serie. Having a harsher view of Voyager, where the magic reset button doesn't automatically heal the scars of yesterday's battles, would be great. You could make a case where Voyager is lost behind the Worm Hole in the Gamma Quadrant after the Prophets/Sisko closed the wormhole would be such a great story to tell. The ship caught behind enemy lines.

And a modern story telling, where the writers aren't afraid to smash the character status quo would be awesome. What would have happened if Worf had joined Gowron in Way of the Warrior instead of clashig with him? You could have a storyline about him finally assuming his role as a Klingon politician/councilman. Worf clashing with the Hawk Martok about the Empire's policies.

You could have Kira actually joining Dukat in his guerilla against the Klingons. If only to turn her back to him later. or Bashir ACTUALLY joining Section 31.

The point is, DS9, for all its strenghtd, has so much more unrealized potential than B5, and if you unleash Moore there, you have all the building blocks you could hope for a long-lasting serie.

bloodtide

2012-02-06, 05:54 PM

Do you think Ironheart became relatively on the same scale as the Vorlons/First Ones?

Not even close. One person 'jumping ahead' is nothing compared to a whole race of beings that have been ahead for years. So I'd put Ironheart somewhere in-between 'normal human' and 'First One'.

He said "see you in a million years", do you think it was him we saw at the end of the "Future Perspective" season 4 episode?

No, not at all.

Why wasn't Kosh and the Vorlons more involved in this event? After all, psychic power is right in their "interest" domain!

We don't know that they weren't. of course. But even 'all knowing, all powerful aliens' miss some things some times. The Vorlons would never have thought that a human could 'jump ahead' like that......or maybe they did. Maybe part of the whole telepath plan was to have folks jump ahead from time to time.

The Corps. Why was the Corps allied with the Shadows? Wouldn't it had been a nice surprise reveal if the Corps's "benefactors" were actually the Vorlons? (used as foreshadowing of the Vorlons's ruthlessness before the genocidal hammer fell). After all, the Corps's promoted ideals of ruthless obedience was more into the Vorlons's lawful philosophy of disciplines. Plus, who else than the Vorlons could help the Corps boost psychic powers?

Telepaths, and by extension Psi Corps was created by the Vorlons. The Shadows simply 'stole' them and used them for their own things. When the Shadows woke up they found allies in both the Earth government and the Corps. The Corps was founded long before the Shadows woke up, very likely with some Vorlon aid and influence. The Shadows, and the Earth government 'bad guys', both used the telepaths and the corps.

Also, the Vorlons clearly declared dibs on the Humans (or so understood from Kosh's words in "Shadows and Portents". Would make sense if the Vorlons already started their agenda.

I don't think they called 'dibs' on a whole race.

Cikomyr

2012-02-06, 07:01 PM

I don't think they called 'dibs' on a whole race.

They sure did with the Minbari

Muz

2012-02-06, 07:25 PM

The thing is, B5 was a very satisfying and filling story to begin with. You don't need to re-do it much except correct a few key story elements like the one I mentioned in the OP (like the Vorlon/Psi Corp alliance).

Since when has that stopped an entertainment executive? :smallbiggrin: And didn't the Shadows infiltrate Psy Corp specifically because they knew the Vorlons had seeded telepaths and wanted to both sabotage one race's supply and subvert telepaths for their own uses so their ships would be more TP resistant? Also, humanity did seem to have the most organized telepaths (at least I don't remember about any of the other races having a Psy Corps equivalent), so that's an anthill that could use some kicking over right there, so far as the Shadows are concerned. "Hey, a nice, organized telepath organization. Let's bork that all up with some chaos and see where the marbles roll!"

Also, the Vorlons clearly declared dibs on the Humans (or so understood from Kosh's words in "Shadows and Portents".

It's also possible Kosh was just calling dibs on the people (of various races) on Babylon 5, or the younger races as a whole. (i.e., "Stop messing the younger ones up with your so-called 'guidance!' Ours is the right way!") It at least fits in with what the Vorlon/Shadow conflict had become at that point.

On a side note, I read somewhere that the Shadows seeded the Technomages the way the Vorlons seeded the telepaths, but I don't remember where I read that anymore. Has anyone else heard this, or is that just a product of my fevered imagination?

Cikomyr

2012-02-06, 07:48 PM

On a side note, I read somewhere that the Shadows seeded the Technomages the way the Vorlons seeded the telepaths, but I don't remember where I read that anymore. Has anyone else heard this, or is that just a product of my fevered imagination?

That's what the B5 wiki also reports. Apparently, the first Technomages were created by the Shadows in a specie like the Minbari. They were meant to be agents of chaos and destruction, but they rebelled and fled to other worlds, recruiting as they went.

Lord Seth

2012-02-06, 08:59 PM

What would have happened if Worf had joined Gowron in Way of the Warrior instead of clashig with him? You could have a storyline about him finally assuming his role as a Klingon politician/councilman. Worf clashing with the Hawk Martok about the Empire's policies.

You could have Kira actually joining Dukat in his guerilla against the Klingons. If only to turn her back to him later. or Bashir ACTUALLY joining Section 31.Except those would be out of character. I really don't think DS9 would be improved by those changes.

It is true, however, that Voyager had great potential that it for the most part squandered.

McStabbington

2012-02-06, 09:45 PM

Except those would be out of character. I really don't think DS9 would be improved by those changes.

It is true, however, that Voyager had great potential that it for the most part squandered.

Pretty much. Worf as a character was often hidden behind the rote notions about honor and stereotypical Klingon drivel, but I think Dorn and the writers (Ronald D. Moore and Ira Stephen Behr especially) did a lot of great work crafting a great, and entirely consistent character out of that germ of an idea. Because the thing about Worf? He longs for his homeland, but he has no real idea of what his homeland is like. He grew up isolated and filled his head with all the stories about Kahless, but then he keeps butting up against the fact that real Klingons aren't like the Klingons in the stories. It's like if Martians raised a human child from infancy and only gave him Captain America comics to tell him what the whole "being human" deal is about.

There's actually a tremendous amount of pathos in that, and a pretty great story to tell about the fact that, given the choice between giving up his loneliness or giving up his honor, he always picks the former. But it also means he would never take the patently dishonorable way out that Gowron offered.

It also points sidelong to something that I think people don't give DS9 enough credit for: while B5 did a better job with character growth, DS9 did a better job of character rounding. In Season 4, Ivanova had grown as a character, sure, but if you know the single central issue of her life (without spoiling too much, Psi-Corp screwed her family up royally), you can still predict with about 95% certainty how she'll react to any given situation. By contrast, knowing the Kira Nerys was a former child soldier and resistance fighter could tell you maybe 20% of what she's going to do, and yet she never acts out of character or inconsistently. The reason is that while her "growth" consisted mostly of softening and knocking off her rough edges rather than changing her fundamentally, the show also took pains to show that she was a fully fleshed individual, with her own thoughts on religion, friendship, romance, etc. that were independent of her experiences as a child. Just like most of our conceptions about religion, friendship, romance, etc. are. Really, when you think about it, there are actually fairly few people for whom the "one great trauma" theory of psychology truly applies, but it applies to virtually every character in B5.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-06, 09:55 PM

I always refer to Byron as "telepath Fabio." I HATE that guy. I do sometimes wonder if his low WIS score might be a little easier to take without the hair.

I wonder, suddenly, what it would be like if someone were to remake B5. It happened to BSG, after all. I think it would be a bad idea (yes, there's room for improvement in many places, but also so many potential pitfalls in doing a remake that I've got to think it wouldn't end in anything but disaster), but it's not as if the entertainment industry hasn't tried things so foolish before...

I can't see it happening to be honest. It was never a huge enough success to warrant it, and it's spin-offs didn't make it either. But IF they did? I can't see it ending well at all. Heck I'd be skeptical even if they decided to just re-shoot the entire thing with original scripts and all, just new casts and better CGI, I'd still be skeptical. (Someone else play Londo, really? I hope I never live to see the day.)

@McStabbington I'll agree with you on Ivanova to a certain degree. She's very focused around what happened to her family (her brother died in the war, thus she joined the military, her mother goth messed up by the psi corp, thus she doesn't trust telepaths.) but she also seems like the kind of character that really would get stuck on those things. For some people one betrayal is enough, after that the trust is gone. And when she finally did trust a telepath (psi corp one!) well it turned out the psi corp had programmed her to basically spy on them and self-destruct if she got caught, so there went the trust again.

But yes, plenty of the characters have certain triggers that will trigger certain (predictable) behaviors and they are relevant in the show as thy pop up every so often.

Again I won't say anything about DS9 since I haven't seen anywhere near enough to make the comparison.

TheThan

2012-02-07, 12:07 AM

Wow I thought I posted in this thread already.
Anyway I’ve seen Babylon 5 about 4-5 times over the years. It’s one of my favorite Sci-Fi tv shows.

Someone mentioned that the story isn’t really about the humans, and to a degree he’s right. You can easily sub title the whole series “The rise and fall of Londo Molari”. Because that’s pretty much what its about, he’s a central figure in just about every major plot point in the series. Heck he’s even important in some of the back-story to the series (The Earth/Mimbari war). The humans have their own plots running (the earth alliance civil war, the telepath stuff). While most of that is pretty good, Londo really does carry the story.

Yora

2012-02-07, 09:42 AM

The humans do have their important stories, but they are usually about different things that are only losely connected to each other.
But Londo and G'Kar are a single continous red thread that runs from the first episode to the very last.

Cikomyr

2012-02-07, 09:57 AM

Except those would be out of character. I really don't think DS9 would be improved by those changes.

It is true, however, that Voyager had great potential that it for the most part squandered.

And that is the beauty of an alternate timeline gimmick. You aren't forced to keep the exact same character traits for everyone. What if Worf acted under order/suggestion by Sisko, saying that "even if you cannot stop this invasion, you would do more good over there than here"?

Same overall plotline. But differen events, different characterizations and choices, and more status quo shattering. Having a minor plotline with "Worf in the High Council" running in the background just like Helo's would be interesting.

It would also have a much, much deeper meaning when Worf finally and openly turn his back to Gowron, right in the middle of the Council, as opposed to a random Bird of Prey, in private.

Thufir

2012-02-07, 11:01 AM

I don't think they called 'dibs' on a whole race.

They kinda did, but I don't think the Shadows cared.

To the people saying B5 isn't really about the humans, etc, I agree and disagree. Yes, to a great extent the story of B5 is the story of Londo. But equally, to a great extent it's the story of G'Kar. And in a very real sense, it is also the story of Sheridan and Delenn. It's too big a story to be attributed to any one character.

Cikomyr

2012-02-07, 11:21 AM

They kinda did, but I don't think the Shadows cared.

To the people saying B5 isn't really about the humans, etc, I agree and disagree. Yes, to a great extent the story of B5 is the story of Londo. But equally, to a great extent it's the story of G'Kar. And in a very real sense, it is also the story of Sheridan and Delenn. It's too big a story to be attributed to any one character.

Again, I still hold that one of the serie's theme was "let's make Ivankva suffer in the most horrible ways possible without ever giving her a break"

Hey! Commander Sinclair meet an old flame with whom he never successfully have a working relationship. Everything turns out for the best and they will marry!

Hey! The very next episode, Ivankva meet an old flame she had to leave because of career orientation. He turns out to be the leader of a xenophobic terrorist organization and she has to betray him!!! Everything turns out for the best except Ivanova.

Look, a Psi-Corp member becomes so convinced of Ivanova's being right about the Corp she will reject her loyalty!! They even develop a romantic relationship! Except that said person ends up having a death of personality and betray her every secrets over to psi corps. She was a cover agent too!!

Look, a nice guy finally does his best to warm up her ice demeanor, she might even start to like him.. Except that he sacrifices himself to save her life.

Seriously, no wonder she ended up a bitter admiral.

Muz

2012-02-07, 11:41 AM

And if she hadn't left the show at the end of season 4, she would've been the one to hook up with Telepath Fabio instead of Lyta (according to JMS). The woman's got worse luck with relationships than Samantha Carter. :smallwink:

Lord Seth

2012-02-07, 11:49 AM

Same overall plotline. But differen events, different characterizations and choices, and more status quo shattering. Having a minor plotline with "Worf in the High Council" running in the background just like Helo's would be interesting.I think what we got was perfectly interesting. But even from a storytelling perspective, I think your proposal would be a bad idea. Let's remember: Worf just joined the show. And the first thing to do after that would be to kick him off to a plot line in which he has no direct interaction with the rest of the characters? Bad idea.

Cikomyr

2012-02-07, 11:59 AM

I think what we got was perfectly interesting. But even from a storytelling perspective, I think your proposal would be a bad idea. Let's remember: Worf just joined the show. And the first thing to do after that would be to kick him off to a plot line in which he has no direct interaction with the rest of the characters? Bad idea.

Well, obviously not. Since in a DS9 remake, there probably wouldn't be any TNG. So you don't need to introduce him as "character coming from another show". Just add him as character in the storyline when the Klingons are becoming relevant.

Think a re-imagination of DS9. Don't let yourself be influenced by whatever hold out existing in the old serie. I just want a storyline where things are less static and Paramount/Berman aren't huge ***** about forcing bottle episodes and maintaining the status quo. They had to negotiate with the network to have a 6- parter opening of season 6. Just compare network attitude then to how it is in contemporary storytelling since 24, Lost or BSG.

Lord Seth

2012-02-07, 12:12 PM

Honestly, if we were to do a DS9 remake, I don't think the issue of whether Worf would join Gowron would even be an issue because they should just skip the Klingon conflict this time around...ultimately, its main purpose was just to fill up a season anyway.

ArlEammon

2012-02-07, 12:21 PM

One of my favorite plot twists was that The Vorlons are azzholes too!

The Succubus

2012-02-07, 12:43 PM

I'd have liked to have seen another series of Babylon 5: Crusade. I really felt that had potential before they canned it.

My favourite character? Londo and G'Kar come pretty close but I just frikking *love* Morden. Friendly, sociable and capable of obliterating your enemies in the blink of an eye.

dehro

2012-02-07, 01:05 PM

I'd have liked to have seen another series of Babylon 5: Crusade. I really felt that had potential before they canned it.

meh...I kinda swallowed it when I first saw it because I was still high on B5.
on the other hand the comparison between the two was what first made me realize how average Crusader was... now it's been a while that I've seen either, all I remember is how good one was and how bad, by comparison, the other.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-07, 01:09 PM

Douglas

2012-02-07, 11:28 PM

Look, a Psi-Corp member becomes so convinced of Ivanova's being right about the Corp she will reject her loyalty!! They even develop a romantic relationship! Except that said person ends up having a death of personality and betray her every secrets over to psi corps. She was a cover agent too!!
That one, at least, had a redemption/recovery in the original plan. The original plot called for Talia to be restored to her real personality with the "cover agent" personality eliminated, by means of an intervention by Kosh using data he had recorded in the episode Deathwalker, but the actress quit before they could do it.

Cikomyr

2012-02-07, 11:44 PM

That one, at least, had a redemption/recovery in the original plan. The original plot called for Talia to be restored to her real personality with the "cover agent" personality eliminated, by means of an intervention by Kosh using data he had recorded in the episode Deathwalker, but the actress quit before they could do it.

So Ivanova got shafted both by the script and real-life circumstances?

Poor girl. Shed would had a better chance having a relation with the Federation Ambassador.

McStabbington

2012-02-08, 12:26 AM

dehro

2012-02-08, 12:11 PM

with a woman at the wheel..what do you expect?

*runs very fast and hides in the nearest bushes

Worguron

2012-02-08, 12:20 PM

Ivanova had a very hard life, but there were many worse things out there. For instance, she could have been Counselor Troi, who combines the powers of complete uselessness outside of exposition and a list of potential sexual harassment defendants larger than most phone books.

I mean, say what you will about Ivanova, but she was always smart, capable and on only one occasion I recall crashed her ship into something. To be fair, there was a second time where, for reasons beyond her control, something crashed into her ship, but that doesn't count. The important thing to remember is that once happens to be one less than the number of times Counselor Troi has crashed the ship she was piloting into something, which is pretty impressive when you consider we only saw her take the helm twice.

Ivanova = Uber-badass of the series. Sure, she didn't end up with the political power that many of the characters had, she wasn't a psychic powerhouse, and she often got sidelined in the various plots, but I'll be damned if she wasn't one of my favorite characters (the others are Marcus, G'kar, Zathras, and Vir). When she did get a chance to shine, she had some of the best lines -

Susan Ivanova: This is the White Star fleet. Negative on the surrender. We will not stand down.
Captain Thomson, Earthforce: Who is this? Identify yourself!
Ivanova: Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova. Commander. Daughter of Andrei and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance, and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am Death Incarnate, and the last living thing that you are ever going to see. God sent me.

Susan Ivanova: All love is unrequited, Stephen. All of it.

David Corwin: So from now on, I guess the operational phrase is "trust no one".
Susan Ivanova: No. Trust Ivanova, trust yourself. Anybody else, shoot 'em!

Lord Seth

2012-02-08, 12:22 PM

The important thing to remember is that once happens to be one less than the number of times Counselor Troi has crashed the ship she was piloting into something, which is pretty impressive when you consider we only saw her take the helm twice.To be fair, I believe both cases were times when even a really good pilot might not have been able to avoid a crash.

Yora

2012-02-08, 02:11 PM

Ivanova = Uber-badass of the series. Sure, she didn't end up with the political power that many of the characters had, she wasn't a psychic powerhouse, and she often got sidelined in the various plots, but I'll be damned if she wasn't one of my favorite characters (the others are Marcus, G'kar, Zathras, and Vir). When she did get a chance to shine, she had some of the best lines
"Ivanova is god!"

I think a major difference to the character is that she had to deal with normal things. The others lived mostly in their fancy world of high society politics, but Ivanova actualy worked with normal people, who very often were not normal at all.
The comanders and ambasadors always existed in their idealized fantasy-glitter world, but Ivanova and Garibaldi existed in a world of actual people with mostly normal problems, just out on a space station.

My favourite character? Londo and G'Kar come pretty close but I just frikking *love* Morden. Friendly, sociable and capable of obliterating your enemies in the blink of an eye.
Morden is a character you love to hate. :smallbiggrin:

Mercenary Pen

2012-02-08, 02:23 PM

Morden is a character you love to hate. :smallbiggrin:

Closely followed by Alfred Bester.

TheThan

2012-02-08, 04:12 PM

Yes, totally yes!
I’ve always believed that a great villain is a character the audience loves to hate. Walter Koenig puts on a stellar performance as Bester. Its also nice to see Koenig in something other than star trek. The character is well, he irritates EVERYONE.
As for Morden, he came off as a sleazy grifter. You knew he was running some kind of scam, but you just didn’t know what. But Morden did provide what Vir really wanted.

warty goblin

2012-02-08, 04:15 PM

Closely followed by Alfred Bester.

The thing I loved about Bester was that he was very often this close to being a reasonable human being taking sensible, proportionate action against his adversaries. It was just that little extra bit that drove him into villain territory, but it kept him believable and just a bit sympathetic.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-08, 04:30 PM

The thing I loved about Bester was that he was very often this close to being a reasonable human being taking sensible, proportionate action against his adversaries. It was just that little extra bit that drove him into villain territory, but it kept him believable and just a bit sympathetic.

I couldn't agree more. Every time I see an episode with him I end up feeling that on a logical level I should be agreeing with him, but I also want to punch him in the face. Before spacing him.

Morden... He fills his purpose, but honestly I always felt he was a little to obvious. Even the first time you see him you know he plays a vital role, is bad and most certainly isn't running some small-time scam. I dunno, I just never connected with him on any other level than "Well here the Shadows go again.". But I suppose it's poossible they didn't want the audience relating to him at all. (No, I'm not being sarcastic, I do believe it's possible they didn't want people relating to him.)

Aotrs Commander

2012-02-08, 04:45 PM

I couldn't agree more. Every time I see an episode with him I end up feeling that on a logical level I should be agreeing with him, but I also want to punch him in the face. Before spacing him.

Morden... He fills his purpose, but honestly I always felt he was a little to obvious. Even the first time you see him you know he plays a vital role, is bad and most certainly isn't running some small-time scam. I dunno, I just never connected with him on any other level than "Well here the Shadows go again.". But I suppose it's poossible they didn't want the audience relating to him at all. (No, I'm not being sarcastic, I do believe it's possible they didn't want people relating to him.)

I concur with the aforementioned logic.

Bester was an excellent villain, ranking high in the "how villains should be done" whereas I found Mordern to be just a bit too smug and full of himself. Bester sometimes looked a bit worried, whereas Morden was smug-gitty until the very last (which was, admittedly EXTREMELY satisfying!)

Yora

2012-02-08, 07:00 PM

I’ve always believed that a great villain is a character the audience loves to hate. Walter Koenig puts on a stellar performance as Bester. Its also nice to see Koenig in something other than star trek. The character is well, he irritates EVERYONE.
Not only that. The moment you hear "Bester is comming", you know your day is already ruined. It doesn't matter why he is comming or if he wants anything from you. But by the time he leaves, you have a bunch of corpses on your hand and will feel really dirty inside. Not so much because you didn't stop him from whatever he had been doing, but because doing so was actually the lesser of two evils.

GenericGuy

2012-02-10, 02:54 AM

I liked B5, but I do have a few complaints about it.

Minbari: were we supposed to like this race? I get they held the “High Men” position in the classic fantasy racial hierarchy, but really these people do pretty terrible and despicable things and seem to rarely get called out on it by other characters and races. In casual conversations everyone says how “noble” the Minbari are, but that never comes across on screen.

Narn: over all I loved the Londo and G’kar character development, and know that we couldn’t have gotten them if the series didn’t play out the way did, still I think it would have been nice change of pace if the victimized people continued down the path of darkness and become the pawns of the Shadows. Having the Centauri take the position seemed a little predictable.

Centauri: dumbest looking aliens ever…I like everything else though.

Marcus: I don’t know why, but instead of the snarky badass ranger they were going for, he came across as smarmy and his acts of badassery artificial. More like Okona from that awful TNG episode.

Coidzor

2012-02-10, 03:11 AM

Minbari: were we supposed to like this race? I get they held the “High Men” position in the classic fantasy racial hierarchy, but really these people do pretty terrible and despicable things and seem to rarely get called out on it by other characters and races. In casual conversations everyone says how “noble” the Minbari are, but that never comes across on screen.

Yeah, I never really got why they kept saying that while the show showed us otherwise. I mean, if it was just the Minbari claiming to be noble while being damned dirty space elves and viewed as such by other races, that I could see.

Marcus: I don’t know why, but instead of the snarky badass ranger they were going for, he came across as smarmy and his acts of badassery artificial. More like Okona from that awful TNG episode.

Yeah, his look and tone overall just didn't really go well for snark. I mean, as a smarmy bastard he got a couple of laughs from me, but it mostly just seemed like he wasn't quite where or what he should've been both in delivery and in role.

dehro

2012-02-10, 08:04 AM

I liked B5, but I do have a few complaints about it.

Minbari: were we supposed to like this race?
I think not...and that that's half the point of the show. the high and mighty aren't any better than any of the other races.. they too have their egomaniacs, make fatal errors, are arrogant to a fault and quite racist...also, as it turns out, only higher class pawns of a race as evil and selfish as the main contenders. in the end they rose above things as a collective, but mostly they were pulled there by a couple of exceptional individuals.. so..not so superior after all..which made it so that I could appreciate and relate to them

Narn: over all I loved the Londo and G’kar character development, and know that we couldn’t have gotten them if the series didn’t play out the way did, still I think it would have been nice change of pace if the victimized people continued down the path of darkness and become the pawns of the Shadows. Having the Centauri take the position seemed a little predictable.

it's an interesting idea, but I don't dislike how they turned out

Centauri: dumbest most hilariously looking aliens ever…I like everything else though.
edited that for you
Marcus: I don’t know why, but instead of the snarky badass ranger they were going for, he came across as smarmy and his acts of badassery artificial. More like Okona from that awful TNG episode.
I think that's a case of wrong casting.. better actors could have done much better with the same lines
fillerfiller

ArlEammon

2012-02-10, 08:10 AM

Yeah, I never really got why they kept saying that while the show showed us otherwise. I mean, if it was just the Minbari claiming to be noble while being damned dirty space elves and viewed as such by other races, that I could see.

Yeah, his look and tone overall just didn't really go well for snark. I mean, as a smarmy bastard he got a couple of laughs from me, but it mostly just seemed like he wasn't quite where or what he should've been both in delivery and in role.

So then, Minbari are like the Klingons of Babylon 5. Klingons are Uber warriors who can all fight par to par with Kratos, God of War, but can be beaten up by a tiny pregnant wrinkly nosed woman.

Cikomyr

2012-02-10, 09:11 AM

The Minbari are shown to have a very stable and peaceful internal society. They do live in an utopia.

However, when it comes to the Minbari's relation with other species, they are no better than any other. They are xenophobe arrogant jerks who become berserk and vindicative to a fault when violence erupts.

A Minbari doesn't back out of a fight. Ever. He fights and will cripple or sacrifice himself to ensure the death of his enemy (and the safety of other Minbari).

They command respect, but only due to their technological superiority, not their so-called enlightened morals. The only element they have proved to be ahead of other races when it comes to moral license is that they know of the Shadow menace, and they are quite willing to commit a lot of resources to the Shadow War unconditionally.

But yhea. Remember: Minbari are a proud and dangerous berserker race. Treat them well, find a way to make yourself worthy of their respect, and they will show you a very enlightened side. Just don't become their enemy.

Ever.

Worguron

2012-02-10, 11:05 AM

Narn: over all I loved the Londo and G’kar character development, and know that we couldn’t have gotten them if the series didn’t play out the way did, still I think it would have been nice change of pace if the victimized people continued down the path of darkness and become the pawns of the Shadows. Having the Centauri take the position seemed a little predictable.

But that wouldn't have been a twist, that would have been giving in to a trope. The very fact that the long victimized people who could have been easily seduced by the powers of darkness that offered them power managed to stay on the right path is what I love so much about them.

Cikomyr

2012-02-10, 11:12 AM

But that wouldn't have been a twist, that would have been giving in to a trope. The very fact that the long victimized people who could have been easily seduced by the powers of darkness that offered them power managed to stay on the right path is what I love so much about them.

They didnt looked to much on the "right" path during season 1, that's for sure. Hell, Morden wasn't interested in G'Kar only because his ambitions were too violent and purposed only toward destruction and death.

G'Kar's dream of Centauri was fulfilled at the end, but he had no hand in it, tho.

Thufir

2012-02-10, 12:03 PM

They didnt looked to much on the "right" path during season 1, that's for sure. Hell, Morden wasn't interested in G'Kar only because his ambitions were too violent and purposed only toward destruction and death.

Actually, the reason was I believe because G'Kar's ambitions only went so far. G'Kar wanted to destroy the Centauri, but afterwards he would've had no further interest in anything the Shadows had to offer. Londo wanted to make his people great again, which as ambitions go has a lot more scope. Londo also had much more personal ambition.

Friv

2012-02-10, 01:04 PM

Actually, the reason was I believe because G'Kar's ambitions only went so far. G'Kar wanted to destroy the Centauri, but afterwards he would've had no further interest in anything the Shadows had to offer. Londo wanted to make his people great again, which as ambitions go has a lot more scope. Londo also had much more personal ambition.

Yeah, that was what I got. Let's see if I can find the quote...

G'Kar: “The Centauri stripped my world. I want Justice ... I want to suck the marrow from their bones and grind their skulls to powder ... to tear down their cities, blacken their sky, sow their ground with salt ... to completely utterly erase them.”
Morden: "And then what?"
G'Kar: “I don’t know. As long as my homeworld's safety is guaranteed, I don’t know that it matters.”

G'Kar was filled with hatred, but his hatred was focused on one group, and ultimately boiled out of his desire to protect his people rather than a desire for power or glory. He wasn't going to start a campaign of galactic aggression like the Centauri would.

Cikomyr

2012-02-10, 01:07 PM

I don't know about you, but I find that saying "a campaign of galactic aggression" to be very cool to say. :smallcool:

Aotrs Commander

2012-02-10, 01:18 PM

Yeah, that was what I got. Let's see if I can find the quote...

G'Kar was filled with hatred, but his hatred was focused on one group, and ultimately boiled out of his desire to protect his people rather than a desire for power or glory. He wasn't going to start a campaign of galactic aggression like the Centauri would.

I think it said something about the high standard of memorable acting, because I automatically read that quote in G'Kar's voice...

Cikomyr

2012-02-10, 01:28 PM

I think it said something about the high standard of memorable acting, because I automatically read that quote in G'Kar's voice...

Its a tribute to good comedy writing that I also remember SFDebris's follow-up line to that clip:

"
- And you named THIS guy to be your diplomat?
- Off course! Everybody else was too extremist!"

Yora

2012-02-10, 06:25 PM

Yeah, I never really got why they kept saying that while the show showed us otherwise. I mean, if it was just the Minbari claiming to be noble while being damned dirty space elves and viewed as such by other races, that I could see.
I liked that the Minbari were very well aware of their own faults. There are several episodes in which they have internal conflicts and spend even greater efforts on making sure that nobody becomes aware that they don't even treat themselves by the standards they demand of others. A lot of stupid things that Minbari are shown doing is entirely to keep the facade.

But that wouldn't have been a twist, that would have been giving in to a trope. The very fact that the long victimized people who could have been easily seduced by the powers of darkness that offered them power managed to stay on the right path is what I love so much about them.
The interesting thing is, that G'Kar has to really work extremely hard to keep them in check. It is not because of the inherent goodness of the Narn that they restrain themselves. If left unchecked, they would definitely had pulled off the entire genocide show. They have the potential for evil just like anyone else, which I think is an important realization for G'Kar as a charakter. Sure, the Centauri were the agressors, but the positions could very easily have been the other way round and it wouldn't had made any difference.

I think it said something about the high standard of memorable acting, because I automatically read that quote in G'Kar's voice...
When I first played Primal on PS2, I actually noticed Andreas Katsulas in the credits during the intro. And there was much rejoicing.

And he turned out to be one of the two main characters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp4s5RWPAfI&feature=related#t=40s), who has about 60% of the games lines.

dehro

2012-02-10, 08:26 PM

the one thing that confused me with B5 was that the climaxes of the story arches seemed to happen somewhere halfway the seasons instead of in a classic "finale" like with..well..almost any other tv show I know off.
I'm not complaining..I liked it a lot when they would wrap up the tales with further episodes dedicated to goodbyes and generally speaking "relatively minor events" related to the big climax they had just gone through...to show how that affected the universe after it had passed.
it seems like good storytelling and sets the tone for further events..
but it was still confusing the crap outta me, initially.

bloodtide

2012-02-11, 03:11 PM

I finally got to see Legend of the Rangers last night....and wow was it bad. It was bad enough with a story of all 'young punks', but the story itself was even worse.

Ok...lets see there is an even older race then the shadows. So guess that makes them the 0 ones?(as the shadows are 1st ones). And they are trapped on another reality(thirdspace?) But now they are back and ready to take over the universe.

Er, ok....well that's cool and all, but evil aliens more powerful then the shadows is just boring. It's soooooo comic booky. You can't just have a new alien menace. Nope they have to be bigger and badder and more cool then all the old aliens. And like the shadows, the aliens are just too cool to give their race a name. As it's so hard to say 'we are the 'Vox' or whatever.

Oh, but of course they can't be 'too cool', as then they would kill everyone. Oh, so they only send 'toys' to kill the good guys as they are 'so cool and bad' that they, er, want the good guys to win.

And then for no reason other then to waste time....er....the ship is haunted?

And then for no reason other then to waste time, SF money and look cool to a 10 year old who is playing a Wii while watching the movie....to fire weapons the gunner has to float in a zero g room and 'air punch and kick'. While the nice wrap around view room is classic Minbari tech, the whole Wii aspect is dumb. You sure don't want your gunner working up such a sweat just to fire the ships weapons. After say a couple dozen air punches she'd get tired, and would not react or punch as fast. So what do you do, ask the bad guys for a time out while the gunner rests.

And the Valen gets taken out with like one shot, but the tiny little ship takes dozens of hits?

And what was the plot anyway. So they found the ruins of the Hand?(the ninjas that are always trying to kill Wolverine?) So they have a bunch of diplomats go to look at the ruins? Odd. The diplomats would just 'ooohh' and 'aaahhh' at the ruins...because, well, they are diplomats. It's not like they were there to do any like diplomacy.

It's shocking MJS even wrote this...what was he thinking?

Aotrs Commander

2012-02-12, 01:30 PM

Cikomyr

2012-02-12, 05:41 PM

Mercenary Pen

2012-02-12, 05:44 PM

I am currently watching "And now with a word from our sponsor". During a council meeting, Sheridan clearly says to Londo:

"Babylon 5 is neutral territory. I will NOT allow this station become a staging ground of weapon depot"

Kinda hypocrite of him to say, since B5 was used as a staging ground not 4 episodes earlier by EarthForce, in "Ground Pounder"?

Yes, but Sheridan had no means of veto in "GROPOS" considering that he was subject to the chain of command. Also I don't know that he saw any other option at the time.

Cikomyr

2012-02-12, 05:48 PM

Yes, but Sheridan had no means of veto in "GROPOS" considering that he was subject to the chain of command. Also I don't know that he saw any other option at the time.

Still. I really felt GROPOS was a bit of a bottle episode, even if it wasn't meant to (nor doesn't feel like it). The strategic presence gained by EarthForce is never referenced again. The implication of using B5, what had been universally agreed as neutral territory, as a staging ground for an invasion is never brushed upon.

We also never, ever see Franklin's father again.

warty goblin

2012-02-12, 09:39 PM

I am currently watching "And now with a word from our sponsor". During a council meeting, Sheridan clearly says to Londo:

"Babylon 5 is neutral territory. I will NOT allow this station become a staging ground of weapon depot"

Kinda hypocrite of him to say, since B5 was used as a staging ground not 4 episodes earlier by EarthForce, in "Ground Pounder"?

B5 is in neutral territory, but it's still an Earth Alliance military base. It's plenty sensible for the Earth Alliance military to move its troops through there, and still get tetchy when third parties use it as a convenient way to ship weapons around.

B5's general status is always a bit vague.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-12, 11:54 PM

B5 is in neutral territory, but it's still an Earth Alliance military base. It's plenty sensible for the Earth Alliance military to move its troops through there, and still get tetchy when third parties use it as a convenient way to ship weapons around.

B5's general status is always a bit vague.

This.

And it really does happen in real life too. Diplomatic meetings are held at a military base because of the relative ease to keep it safe, and no one thinks twice about the country hosting it having their own troops moving around on that base. But if one of the visitors suddenly wants to borrow a warehouse to store weapons in? Yhea that's not gonna sit to well with them.

Honestly, the thing that surprises me more is that B5 is considered an Earth-Alliance base considering Earth wasn't the only civilization involved in building and maintaining B5.

factotum

2012-02-13, 02:39 AM

Honestly, the thing that surprises me more is that B5 is considered an Earth-Alliance base considering Earth wasn't the only civilization involved in building and maintaining B5.

Except Earth *was* the only civilisation involved in building and maintaining B5--what makes you think otherwise? The whole point of the Babylon stations was to try and prevent a future recurrence of the disastrous misunderstanding that sparked the Earth-Minbari War, but the Minbari had nothing to do with their construction.

GenericGuy

2012-02-13, 03:10 AM

Except Earth *was* the only civilisation involved in building and maintaining B5--what makes you think otherwise? The whole point of the Babylon stations was to try and prevent a future recurrence of the disastrous misunderstanding that sparked the Earth-Minbari War, but the Minbari had nothing to do with their construction.

Yes, but they seem to have had an awful lot of pull in deciding who ran it originally. The Minbari joining of Babylon 5 was originally conditional that Sinclair be put in charge, when Sheridan (the only human to have won a victory against the Minbari) became station commander, they threw a hissy fit over the “insult.”

Mercenary Pen

2012-02-13, 05:56 AM

Except Earth *was* the only civilisation involved in building and maintaining B5--what makes you think otherwise? The whole point of the Babylon stations was to try and prevent a future recurrence of the disastrous misunderstanding that sparked the Earth-Minbari War, but the Minbari had nothing to do with their construction.

Not entirely true, by the time Babylon 5 was constructed, the Babylon project as a whole had cost the earth alliance enough that they needed external support to keep the project from failing- and the Minbari (and to a lesser extent the Centauri) gave it to them, at a price.

Source (http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Babylon_project)

Cikomyr

2012-02-13, 10:00 AM

The Earth Alliance are still the ones who pay the operating expenses. So I guess it make sense they are the ones allowed to use it as they see fit.

And the Minbari paying for B5, when you think about it, is simply long overdue payment for their purchase of Babylon 4! They are lucky not to believe in compound interest, however. And they merely paid the price for a smaller, cheaper station.

Yhea, the boneheads really skiffed the human taxpayers on that deal!!

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-13, 10:48 AM

And the AI operating the station came from the Centauri... So that's two alien races involved in the station right there.

Cikomyr

2012-02-13, 10:59 AM

And the AI operating the station came from the Centauri... So that's two alien races involved in the station right there.

Where did you got that?

And Sparky was disconnected as soon as possible. I doubt it credited as an asset to whomever installed that wreck of a software.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-13, 01:29 PM

Where did you got that?

And Sparky was disconnected as soon as possible. I doubt it credited as an asset to whomever installed that wreck of a software.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105946/trivia

Pretty sure it's on the DVD's somewhere too, just can't go through them all and look for it right now. :) (I'd love to, but knowing me I'd end up spending a weekend going through all the extra material. :p)

dehro

2012-02-14, 06:03 AM

(I'd love to, but knowing me I'd end up spending a weekend going through all the extra material. :p)

tell me about it.. the thread had spurred me into rewatching the whole thing back to back..and the blooper reels on youtube
I've slept 4 hours in 3 nights ... this can't be healthy :smalleek:

Cikomyr

2012-02-14, 07:25 AM

tell me about it.. the thread had spurred me into rewatching the whole thing back to back..and the blooper reels on youtube
I've slept 4 hours in 3 nights ... this can't be healthy :smalleek:

Where you don't rest your body, you surely rest your soul :smallwink:

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-14, 01:26 PM

bloodtide

2012-02-14, 07:11 PM

tell me about it.. the thread had spurred me into rewatching the whole thing back to back..

One of the great things about B5 is that it's made to be watched on DVD or otherwise not 'live commercial television'. It was so hard to watch on normal TV. It was bad enough waiting the week to see what happened, but even worse when you somehow missed a show.

And my local station was a sports station too:smallannoyed: So I'd tune in to watch the show, and nope, game was on.

Even better is that on DVD you can skip some of the annoying stuff (like when they go to fight the Shadows for the first time and HALF of that episode is Doc Franklin and the Whitney Huston want-to-be:smallannoyed: )

Cikomyr

2012-02-14, 07:59 PM

One of the great things about B5 is that it's made to be watched on DVD or otherwise not 'live commercial television'. It was so hard to watch on normal TV. It was bad enough waiting the week to see what happened, but even worse when you somehow missed a show.

And my local station was a sports station too:smallannoyed: So I'd tune in to watch the show, and nope, game was on.

Even better is that on DVD you can skip some of the annoying stuff (like when they go to fight the Shadows for the first time and HALF of that episode is Doc Franklin and the Whitney Huston want-to-be:smallannoyed: )

Yhea.. tell me about it. The girl who pushed me to watch this serie can't stop telling me about the summer-long cliffhanger about what happened to Sheridan at the end of Season 3