Best way to use vow of nonviolence/peace?

[Con_Brio1993]

In general what are the best ways to get around the restrictions (or at least minimize) while maximizing the benefits?

Kind of a short question, but people could have varying views and anecdotes so I felt a thread was appropriate.

[Dumbledore lives]

Well neither of them prohibit non-lethal damage so you can make a pretty decent unarmed fighter with them. Maybe 2 levels of monk, some barbarian, fist of the forest, and frostrager and you'll be set for a fairly decent build.

They also work quite well on a healer, making one incredibly difficult to hit and able to wander around the battlefield uninjured by normal weapons, which is pretty cool in terms of fluff.

[Con_Brio1993]

Well neither of them prohibit non-lethal damage so you can make a pretty decent unarmed fighter with them. Maybe 2 levels of monk, some barbarian, fist of the forest, and frostrager and you'll be set for a fairly decent build.

They also work quite well on a healer, making one incredibly difficult to hit and able to wander around the battlefield uninjured by normal weapons, which is pretty cool in terms of fluff.

How well do they work with Diplomonsters?

I know Binders have a vestige that allows taking 10 on diplomacy without penalty in battle. Combined with Marshal and some other classes I good maximize my diplomacy roll.

[Xefas]

Due to some players' reactions to having a party member with this feat, it may further the cause of peace and maximize your benefits if you simply murder all of your acquaintances before taking the vows.

No pesky sinners to get in the way of your exalted mojo.

[Black_Zawisza]

Beguilers can put Vow of Nonviolence to good use upping their illusion DCs.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguilers can put Vow of Nonviolence to good use upping their illusion DCs.

This - not a single spell on the Beguiler class spell list violates Vow of Peace or Vow of Nonviolence. You may as well pick up VoP as well and go Beguiler 6/ Apostle of Peace 2/ Mystic Theurge.

It gets a bit complicated when your whole party wants to kill every Orc, Goblin, and Kobold they run into, but your character insists that they be captured and given a fair trial. Having a PC with the authority to try them on the spot a la Judge Dread can easily get around this, though.

[sonofzeal]

+1 for Beguiler.

Note that the "allies can't kill" clause only really comes up for CDG. In mid to high level combat, enemies generally drop straight from "alive" to "dead" without pausing in "bleeding out". And if they are bleeding out, you can just leave them there and they'll die naturally more than half the time. It's really not that big an imposition unless you make it an issue, or your group has some really bloodthirsty members. Just run the concept by the other players before the game starts, and everything should be okay.

[Zaq]

If you ignore the broken parts of it, AoP actually is a fun class.

[Shalist]

Some of those sacred vow feats would go great on an animal companion or special mount, particularly VoP with it's 'sustenance' effect. For some of the larger and more exotic mounts (I'm looking at you, Tarrasque), that would single-handedly saves you from needing to follow behind them with several dedicated portable holes and a readied action just to avoid being thrown out of the city :P

[Psyren]

Beguiler is indeed great with VoN. But screw VoPe.

[Con_Brio1993]

Beguiler is indeed great with VoN. But screw VoPe.

Why is VoPe not worth taking?

[Psyren]

Why is VoPe not worth taking?

It turns you into party nanny and invites DM screw.

[sonofzeal]

It turns you into party nanny and invites DM screw.
The problems with it are usually either overstated, or result from not reading it carefully enough. I've gone whole campaigns without needing to CDG anyone, and that's about the only time the "nanny" thing kicks in.

[Con_Brio1993]

It turns you into party nanny and invites DM screw.

The wording of the feat confuses me. When it says I can't use anything to weaken or incapacitate enemies, does that mean I couldn't use Illusion magic to distract orcs while my party slays them?

edit: What does CDG mean?

[Psyren]

The problems with it are usually either overstated, or result from not reading it carefully enough. I've gone whole campaigns without needing to CDG anyone, and that's about the only time the "nanny" thing kicks in.


You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them.

I can't think of a single offensive spell that doesn't "incapacitate or weaken" in some way. So it's basically (a) telling you not to use offensive magic at all, or (b) telling your party not to kill anything that you use your magic on.

And no, your party is quite capable of accidentally killing something without CDG, unless your DM tells everyone how much HP things have.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

edit: What does CDG mean?

Coup de grace.

[Con_Brio1993]

And no, your party is quite capable of accidentally killing something without CDG, unless your DM tells everyone how much HP things have.

Isn't it acceptable for them to kill anything not helpless?

A demon clawing at our faces with stupidly sharp claws is not helpless.

[sonofzeal]

I can't think of a single offensive spell that doesn't "incapacitate or weaken" in some way. So it's basically (a) telling you not to use offensive magic at all, or (b) telling your party not to kill anything that you use your magic on.
The former is pretty easy. Beyond healing, you've got a wealth of buffing and general utility options open to you, not to mention battlefield control. Most illusion magic is fine, for example. And nonlethal damage doesn't contribute towards death, so that's categorically okay too.

So yes, VoPe reduces your options somewhat, depending on what your character concept was. But it doesn't turn you into a "nanny" unless you're trying to step outside of that - and the fact that it does let you branch out into a bit of debuff if you're careful about it, rather than categorically blocking it, is something I'd consider a feature rather than a bug.

[Psyren]

The problem is that VoN increases your save DCs, aka the effectiveness of your offensive magic. Then VoPe penalizes you for using offensive magic. So my point stands, you have no reason to take both.\


Isn't it acceptable for them to kill anything not helpless?

A demon clawing at our faces with stupidly sharp claws is not helpless.

"Living" is the prohibition given, not "helpless."
And no, fiends are not excepted from this.

[sonofzeal]

Let's put it this way. Party roles are usually something like this....

- Social
- Sneak
- Healbot
- Utility
- DPR
- Buff
- Debuff
- Battlefield Control


...and viable party rolls for a VoPe character are....

- Social
- Sneak
- Healbot
- Utility
- DPR
- Buff
- Debuff
- Battlefield Control

I don't think that's unmanageable, if you knew that when setting up your character concept.

[sonofzeal]

The problem is that VoN increases your save DCs, aka the effectiveness of your offensive magic. Then VoPe penalizes you for using offensive magic. So my point stands, you have no reason to take both.
Calm Emotions Aura, and the Shatter effect on manufactured weapons that hit you, both benefit from that DC increase. Anything along those lines is okay too. Sanctuary comes to mind as a purely defensive spell that offers a save. Battlefield Control Illusions also often offer saves.




"Living" is the prohibition given, not "helpless."
And no, fiends are not excepted from this.
YOU can't kill "living". Your ALLIES can't kill "helpless". This was in reference to your "nanny" comment. CDG is the only situation where having a VoPer in the party makes a significant difference, and even then it doesn't make the VoPer fall, it just gives you a piddly little penalty for an hour.

[Psyren]

A lot of Battlefield Control is out too (Glitterdust surely counts as "weakening" for instance, and Holy Word "incapacitates.") You lose some Utility too (Dispel Magic on a creature weakens it.)

And what do you gain for throwing your offense out the window? Paltry NA and deflection bonuses, another paltry AC bonus that doesn't apply to touch attacks, an ability you can gain from an item, and a 2nd-level mind-affecting spell. I'm not impressed.

And let's not forget a DM that actually makes you RP drinking through a strainer and the other ridiculous stuff.


YOU can't kill "living". Your ALLIES can't kill "helpless".

Whether they are helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) or not is irrelevant - if your allies kill them at any point after you did something to weaken them, you fall. "Helpless" is a specific condition that is not mentioned in the feat.

I see your confusion - you're mixing up VoN and VoPe. VoN is the one that only cares about helpless opponents.

[Telonius]

Knight is another good chassis for a Vow of Peace build. It depends heavily on uses of the Knight's Challenge, but it can effectively end a fight by forcing people to attack him, then either having their emotions calmed through his aura or shattering their weapons if they manage to make all their Will saves.

[Con_Brio1993]

To avoid making a thread, I have a character idea. I would very much appreciate if someone could quickly glance over it and let me know if it would perform reasonably well in a low-mid op game.

Human Beguiler (7)

1. Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence (bonus from VoPo)
2. Vow of Peace (bonus from VoPo)
3. Bind Vestige (Naberius)

At this point I make it to level 7, and I intentionally break my vow (assuming magic items outweigh the benefits of the feat). I may even break it earlier. I still have the feat (but not the benefits of it) so RAW I can enter into Apostle of Peace at level 8.

Beguilar 7/AoP (10)

At this point I live life as an Apostle of Peace. I now have a number of divine spells I can cast per day, in addition to my beguiler spells.

Thanks to Naberius I can use Diplomacy in combat without penalty, and take 10. I also have a calm emotions aura, and the ability to calm enemies down with a touch attack. In short, I am a diplogod.

Of course diplomacy can't solve every problem. When it doesn't I simply buff my allies and use illusions to sow discord. I'm not the one causing harm to enemies, so I shouldn't be in violation of my vows.

There are probably far better ways to accomplish diplomastery, but I very much like the theme of a vow character and the RP restrictions involved.

[Ellrin]

To avoid making a thread, I have a character idea. I would very much appreciate if someone could quickly glance over it and let me know if it would perform reasonably well in a low-mid op game.

Human Beguiler (7)

1. Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence (bonus from VoPo)
2. Vow of Peace (bonus from VoPo)
3. Bind Vestige (Naberius)

At this point I make it to level 7, and I intentionally break my vow (assuming magic items outweigh the benefits of the feat). I may even break it earlier. I still have the feat (but not the benefits of it) so RAW I can enter into Apostle of Peace at level 8.

Beguilar 7/AoP (10)

At this point I live life as an Apostle of Peace. I now have a number of divine spells I can cast per day, in addition to my beguiler spells.

Thanks to Naberius I can use Diplomacy in combat without penalty, and take 10. I also have a calm emotions aura, and the ability to calm enemies down with a touch attack. In short, I am a diplogod.

Of course diplomacy can't solve every problem. When it doesn't I simply buff my allies and use illusions to sow discord. I'm not the one causing harm to enemies, so I shouldn't be in violation of my vows.

There are probably far better ways to accomplish diplomastery, but I very much like the theme of a vow character and the RP restrictions involved.

And if Diplomacy doesn't work, swift feint to distract and run the **** away. And if anybody asks about it later, glibness Bluff until they think up is down and kittens are tarrasques in disguise.

I love beguilers.

[Medic!]

If you no longer meet the pre-requisites for a feat, you no longer meet the pre-requisites for anything requiring that feat afaik. I tried a poverty/non-violence/peace beguiler once, and loved him for the 1 and a half rounds he lasted before the DM smote him with not-even-remotely-disguised-fiat. The two biggest pieces of advice I can give anyone wanting to play a vow of X character are 1) Discuss it with your DM and party before you even start, making sure they understand the implications and making sure they are ok with it, and 2) Don't use the Vow of X feats unless you need them to make a character concept workable. They aren't made for mechanical advantage, they're made to give unique concepts a leg to stand on where they would otherwise be horrible.

Also I haven't seen it mentioned, and I'm AFB atm, but I know one of the feats (either non-violence or peace) specifies humanoids, so if you discuss it with your DM ahead of time the restrictions on your party members and your contribution to the fight may not be such an issue in most situations if everyone is on the same page.

[Con_Brio1993]

If you no longer meet the pre-requisites for a feat, you no longer meet the pre-requisites for anything requiring that feat afaik. I tried a poverty/non-violence/peace beguiler once, and loved him for the 1 and a half rounds he lasted before the DM smote him with not-even-remotely-disguised-fiat. The two biggest pieces of advice I can give anyone wanting to play a vow of X character are 1) Discuss it with your DM and party before you even start, making sure they understand the implications and making sure they are ok with it, and 2) Don't use the Vow of X feats unless you need them to make a character concept workable. They aren't made for mechanical advantage, they're made to give unique concepts a leg to stand on where they would otherwise be horrible.

Also I haven't seen it mentioned, and I'm AFB atm, but I know one of the feats (either non-violence or peace) specifies humanoids, so if you discuss it with your DM ahead of time the restrictions on your party members and your contribution to the fight may not be such an issue in most situations if everyone is on the same page.

I plan on discussing this with my DM of course.

Also if what you say is true, then I wont break the vow of poverty until after I prestige into Apostle.

I suppose I don't really need the feats to accomplish the character personality I want.

[Medic!]

Also if what you say is true, then I wont break the vow of poverty until after I prestige into Apostle.

RAW that would make you lose the benefit of your Apostle of Peace levels as well. Your DM may be able to work something out with you. Rule 0 always applies, the rules are all really just guidelines.

Since you're just wanting the vow of poverty to qualify for AoP, if your DM has no issues with doing so I'd say offer up a "Vow of Charity" or some such where you donate a % of your cut of loot and gain limited benefits of VoP, like a partial bonus exalted feat progression, and allow that to qualify for AoP.

I haven't really looked all that much at AoP, so I have no opinions on how the class would be affected by allowing it to use magic items though.

[Chronos]

Vow of Peace does not prohibit you from weakening enemies-- You need to finish reading that sentence.


You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them -- If you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner(emphasis mine)

In other words, Hold Person (for example) is fine. What's not fine is if a party mate asks you "Hey, can you paralyze this bugbear so I can finish him off?".

And really, most of the best spells don't violate Vow of Peace, anyway. Web? Fine. Stinking Cloud? Fine. Sleep or Color Spray? Fine. Hold Person? Fine. Solid Fog? Fine. Grease? Fine. Baleful Polymorph? Fine. In fact, almost all of the save-or-suck spells, aside from those that kill outright, are within the bounds of the vow.

[sonofzeal]

A lot of Battlefield Control is out too (Glitterdust surely counts as "weakening" for instance, and Holy Word "incapacitates.") You lose some Utility too (Dispel Magic on a creature weakens it.)

And what do you gain for throwing your offense out the window? Paltry NA and deflection bonuses, another paltry AC bonus that doesn't apply to touch attacks, an ability you can gain from an item, and a 2nd-level mind-affecting spell. I'm not impressed.

And let's not forget a DM that actually makes you RP drinking through a strainer and the other ridiculous stuff.



Whether they are helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) or not is irrelevant - if your allies kill them at any point after you did something to weaken them, you fall. "Helpless" is a specific condition that is not mentioned in the feat.

I see your confusion - you're mixing up VoN and VoPe. VoN is the one that only cares about helpless opponents.
1) I seriously dispute your definition of "weaken". Dispel Magic for example. It removes a prop, but the actual creature's abilities are unchanged. It's the difference between debuffing, and un-buffing.


2) What part of "a halfway intelligent player can avoid weakening enemies" don't you understand? Take 4th level Beguiler spells for a moment. Crushing Despair counts as weakening, and Confusion's out too. But Charm Monster and Rainbow Pattern could be used without violating the vows, as can Phantom Battle. And the majority - Freedom of Movement, Greater Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Locate Creature, Mass Whelm, Solid Fog - can all be used with carte blanche.

That's 2 definitely out, 3 situational/debatable, and 7 that are perfectly fine... including the king of crowd control, Solid Fog.


3) Even if you weaken them, you don't automatically fall. The key phrase is "so that your allies can kill them". The English construction "X so that Y" can be rephrased as "X for the purpose of Y". If I as a VoPe Beguiler cast Charm Monster to stop the Ettin from eating our Rogue, I'm in the clear even if it dies later that fight. It's a bit of a tightrope, sure, but one that I've walked before.


A sadistic DM might reinterpret the rules the way you're doing, but nothing in the actual wording suggests that. And if you have to resort to DM fiat smite to show how bad the Vow is....

[Con_Brio1993]

Hmm... actually the whole Apostle of Peace thing seems like a bad idea. I get nearly the same diplomacy score with a straight Binder.

I guess I could go straight Beguiler with Sacred Vow/VoN. I'd fulfill the same concept with the benefit of increased save DCs.

[Psyren]

*snip*
A sadistic DM might reinterpret the rules the way you're doing, but nothing in the actual wording suggests that. And if you have to resort to DM fiat smite to show how bad the Vow is....

I don't consider it DFS to treat the feat as written, but we can agree to disagree.

What I will say though is that I don't see anything in the benefits of the feat strong enough to be worth the hassle - and that goes for being goody-two-shoes exalted every bit as much as the additional restrictions of the Vow itself. Not to mention the additional dead feat for entry.

The only half-way interesting ability is the "break weapons on hit" which carries the wonderful consequence of auto-sundering your loot.

[sonofzeal]

I don't consider it DFS to treat the feat as written, but we can agree to disagree.

What I will say though is that I don't see anything in the benefits of the feat strong enough to be worth the hassle - and that goes for being goody-two-shoes exalted every bit as much as the additional restrictions of the Vow itself. Not to mention the additional dead feat for entry.

The only half-way interesting ability is the "break weapons on hit" which carries the wonderful consequence of auto-sundering your loot.
I've quoted you the rules of the feat as written. The "so that" clause softens it considerably. What you seem to be advocating is running it without that "so that" clause, which is not how the feat was written.

Also, the Calm Emotions aura is massively powerful since the DC's going to be so high. I played with it once, and in the entire campaign I think someone might have saved against it exactly once, and it could completely change the pace of encounters.

The Break Weapons thing only came up once or twice, but was pretty cool when it did. By our reading no damage gets dealt if the weapon fails its save, which resulted in me taking a shotgun blast at point blank and not getting a scratch. But it's the Calm Emotions that allowed me to reshape the campaign.

[Con_Brio1993]

I don't consider it DFS to treat the feat as written, but we can agree to disagree.

What I will say though is that I don't see anything in the benefits of the feat strong enough to be worth the hassle - and that goes for being goody-two-shoes exalted every bit as much as the additional restrictions of the Vow itself. Not to mention the additional dead feat for entry.

The only half-way interesting ability is the "break weapons on hit" which carries the wonderful consequence of auto-sundering your loot.

Personally I'm mainly interested in the feats because of the roleplaying restrictions.

[Toliudar]

I'm having tremendous fun with a VoN bard (thank you Togo!). It can indeed cause a reshape of the way that the entire group deals with a whole swath of enemies, so discussing with the other players before you introduce this character is indeed a Very Good Idea.

[Wings of Peace]

If you no longer meet the pre-requisites for a feat, you no longer meet the pre-requisites for anything requiring that feat afaik.

I thought that rule only applied to prestige classes? Also, biggest perk to the vow feats, you don't lose them when you break your vows, they just become useless. So you can still become an Apostle of Peace after your murderous rampage :P

[Grendus]

The entire Vow line was never intended to be great, powerful feats (I believe the designer even said as much). They were intended to be feats that allowed players who wanted to play a certain archtype, be it the paladin who has forsworn worldly possessions or the wizard who believes using magic to kill corrupts it's purpose, to remain viable in a party who may or may not share their beliefs. There's a reason it has a mature tag on it, and it's not because of the artwork. If your DM likes to set the Paladin up to fall, you should leave the BoED at home. It's not for everyone, it seems that it's second only to ToB for the most commonly banned official sourcebook.

[Morithias]

Conjours also make good vow of peace if you want to be cheesy. The rules say "YOU" cannot do damage. There's no rule saying your monsters can't.

[smasher0404]

If we are going with spells, the 8th level spell temporal stasis does not cause either harm or suffering, or damage but still permanently renders a foe useless in combat assuming the casters are some how kept from casting freedom or dispel magic. Also theoretically, there is nothing stopping you from trying to use wish to wish away the special clause of any vow
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous.
Charm Person and similar allows combat to end if your enemy fails its will save, however does not cause "harm or suffering" yet still ends combat.

[Stux]

Vow of Peace states "You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them".

I read that as meaning it is fine to incapacitate or weaken a foe (though not cause them pain or suffering), so long as your character intends to take them prisoner and is convinced that their allies do not intend to use it as an opportunity to kill the foe.

[Zero grim]

I like the vows, especially the big three (none violence, peace, poverty), they stop you from being able to mindlessly kill and you don't get any shiny loot but so what? you can find other solutions, I've never been in a fight where the only possible outcome was killing the opponents, I've had many a character defeat hordes of orcs by just bluffing my way into their camp and getting some more connections.

For vow of non-violence and peace you can only break your vow if the party goes "hey can we kill this guy, possibly you could use a spell to help?" and you respond with yes, if you do that then your not really vowed for peace are you, your just a sheet of paper with peace written on it throwing out numbers.

If the DM pulls "you didn't run the water through a strainer" or any such thing to deny your peace you can very easily follow up with the fact that humans don't get swallow whole, so it wouldn't do anything, Fiat cuts both ways, if a DM doesn't respect his players then why should they do the same?

so in all three feats grants you, +6 AC, +4 DC to non damaging spells and abilities, aura of calm, sundering skin, the morality oath (gives allies penalties to kill helpless people) and +2 diplomacy, that's a lot of tricks from just a few feats, I think its worth it, I could see it not being a great feat to have on a dungeon crawl but then again I don't play/run much of that myself, that's my 2 cents.

Whats the best way to use those feats: mechanically id say they are for making the healer/illusionist tougher without much effort, for RP I cant see anything better then a true apostle of peace teaching the party that mindless murder in fact isn't lawfully good (unlace its gnomes you murder, obviously)

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: N-n-n-necro-breaker! Please don't do thread necromancy.