[3.5]Suggest a sneaky class

[Lord Il Palazzo]

To give the short version, I'm running a campaign from which one of my players left several months ago. Now the player's coming back and wants to start in with a new character. He played a rogue before and is still looking to play a sneaky character who can deal be manipulative when he need/wants to, but doesn't want to be a rogue again. Neither of us has a huge amount of experience beyond core so advice would be much appreciated.

The party into which this character is going to be added includes a universalist wizard (mostly buffing and debuffing with a bit of blasting on the side), a druid and a TWF mobility-focused ranger who's just starting to take swordsage levels. Everyone's at level 8 and the new character will be as well.

Swordsage, of course, did come to mind, but with the ranger already taking levels in it, I don't think the player who's rejoining wants to step on any toes. I may suggest a dip for a few maneuvers and stances, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to focus on it.

I'm planning to suggest Beguiler, Factotum and Ninja (I'm willing to let him use the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) as the 3.5 one looks pretty weak and the PF one seems at least a little better (or at least more customizable)) based on how he's described the character he wants to play. Are there any other options you would suggest? Are there any prestige classes the player should consider aiming for?

Thanks much and I look forward to seeing you suggestions.

[Acanous]

Factotum is what he's looking for, here.
That or maybe a shadowcaster, they can be sneaky.

[Zaq]

Psychic Rogue, maybe? They're pretty cool. There's also the Lurk, but it's not as good. Beguilers are pretty sneaky, too. Scouts can sneak, but for some reason, I don't generally think of them as being sneaky (probably because sneaking is totally unrelated to Skirmish, while it can trigger Sneak Attack). Spellthieves are fun as well, but finicky.

[HunterOfJello]

Typical Sneak Classes:

Beguiler
Factotum
Rogue
Psychic Rogue
Scout
Ninja
Ranger
Spellthief
Ranger/Scout (Swift Hunter Build)


Other potentially Sneaky Classes:

Able Learner [Feat] + Human + 1 level from a class above
Bard
Swordsage
Shadowcaster (needs house rules to become fully viable)
Dread Necromancer (has Hide, but not MS)
Swashbuckler/Rogue (Daring Outlaw Build)
Rogue , Wilderness variant
Wizard, Illusionist with Shadow Shaper variant
Prestige Bard
Expert


Binder (?) - not sure about this one, but I would not be surprised in the slightest if they can pull it off

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler from PH2, it's extremely easy to play - just look over the spell list whenever you run into an obstacle.

It's best taken single-classed, though with a single level dip into a prestige class which advances spellcasting between the 5th and 6th levels. Mindbender is preferred, but just about anything will work as long as it advances spellcasting. Obligatory handbook link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0).

[Black_Zawisza]

I would definitely go with Factotum. The Druid and Wizard have casting pretty much covered, and I bet the Ranger would appreciate someone else fighting at the front lines. Factotum is quite good at the manipulative social stuff while still being good at skillmonkeying overall. If you were to be a Whisper Gnome as well, you'd be the god of sneaking: 4 INT + 6 ranks + 4 racial + 4 size + 2 DEX = +20 Hide. At Level 3. With a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, this can go higher, and you get Hide in Plain Sight to boot. :smallbiggrin:

For the manipulative social stuff, a one-level dip in Mindbender (Tome and Blood/Complete Arcane) gives you telepathy. Mindsight (Lords of Madness feat) gives you mindsight, allowing you to pinpoint creatures with an INT of at least 1.

To sum up, my suggestion: Whisper Gnome Factotum X/Mindbender 1.

[gallagher]

bard or spellthief are sneaky and all kinds of fun

[Ellrin]

If he's looking for a manipulative sneak, there is nothing better than Beguiler.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm thinking that I'll advise him toward either beguiler or factotum, depending on how magical he wants to be. The party does have a druid and a wizard, but the druid is frankly more intersted in riding his leopard (he's a gnome) into the fray and bashing some heads with his Shillelagh (with occasional wildshaping) so a bit more casting wouldn't necessarilly be a bad thing (especially when it's applicable in non-combat situations).

The player has specifically said he doesn't want to be a bard (for whatever reason) and I don't think I want to bring any alternate magic (or magic-like) systems (shadowcaster and various psionics) as my group's pretty new to the game (this player especially) so I don't want to cause confusion. (I'd consider if a player specifically asked me to, but thus far this is a non-issue.)

[Black_Zawisza]

Here are some additional feat suggestions...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

The most powerful non-cheesy option for a Factotum is the above Font of Inspiration - as many times as you can, cause it only gets better the more you take it.

Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Arcane, I think) allows you to leave a spell slot open and spontaneously cast any spell from the Sorc/Wiz list once a day. Great if you like/need to have that silver bullet on hand occasionally.

Vow of Nonviolence (Book of Exalted Deeds) is excellent for a Beguiler; most uses of his spells qualify for the +4 to DC, especially illusions and enchantments. As mentioned above, Mindbender + Mindsight are great for both Factotums and Beguilers.

[Psyren]

Psychic Rogue or Factotum are my choices, but if you'd rather not mess with those then PF Ninja should be fine - just give him trapfinding instead of the poison stuff.

[Chronos]

He played a rogue before and is still looking to play a sneaky character who can deal be manipulative when he need/wants to, but doesn't want to be a rogue again.We need to know why he doesn't want to be a rogue again-- Otherwise, he might just say of whatever we say "nah, that's too much like a rogue".

Oh, and nobody else has mentioned the possibility of a bard, either. They usually aren't built to use it, but bards do have Hide and Move Silently. And they're also the most manipulative of the core classes, while still having a completely un-rogue-like set of abilities as well.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I think the reason he wasn't too eager to play a rogue again was just that he didn't think he contributed much. Sure he could be the party face and skill monkey, finding and disabling traps and whatnot, but whenever combat came up (and he played in a time when the campaign was pretty combat heavy) he felt like all he could really do was hide, take a shot with a crossbow for sneak attack damage and repeat.

He's settled on a beguiler and we had a brief session this afternoon. He seemed to like it a lot better as the spells give him a ton more options and more to do in and out of combat.

Thanks for all the help.

[Endarire]

A Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) with the Trickery and Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) Domains should do.

[Gavinfoxx]

combat came up (and he played in a time when the campaign was pretty combat heavy) he felt like all he could really do was hide, take a shot with a crossbow for sneak attack damage and repeat.

Why wasn't he flanking with two weapon fighting and mixing it up in melee and dealing lots of D6's of damage? Or why wasn't the Wizard Greasing enemies for the rogue to deal crazy amounts of damage? Or why didn't he have a fighter dip (or whatever) to be able to two weapon fight and sneak attack with two handed elven courtblade or spiked chain and armor spikes? Rogues can be competent at melee combat -- especially with one of the 'if you flank, you deal half the d6's of your sneak attack damage on even sneak attack immune creatures' alternate class features from various places, but the player needs to think of them as melee creatures that deal huge numbers of attacks, first and foremost...

Maybe you and he should go over the handbook?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233

[hex0]

In order of awesome (according to me)

1. Factotum
2. Psychic Rogue
3. Trickster Spellthief (though you lose skills and skill points)

Honorable Obscure Mention: Rokugan Ninja

2 dip of Monk tends to work out ok for most things.

[Psyren]

In order of awesome (according to me)

1. Factotum
2. Psychic Rogue
3. Trickster Spellthief (though you lose skills and skill points)

Honorable Obscure Mention: Rokugan Ninja

2 dip of Monk tends to work out ok for most things.

Beguiler should be top 3 imo

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Why wasn't he flanking with two weapon fighting and mixing it up in melee and dealing lots of D6's of damage? Or why wasn't the Wizard Greasing enemies for the rogue to deal crazy amounts of damage? Or why didn't he have a fighter dip (or whatever) to be able to two weapon fight and sneak attack with two handed elven courtblade or spiked chain and armor spikes? Rogues can be competent at melee combat -- especially with one of the 'if you flank, you deal half the d6's of your sneak attack damage on even sneak attack immune creatures' alternate class features from various places, but the player needs to think of them as melee creatures that deal huge numbers of attacks, first and foremost...

Maybe you and he should go over the handbook?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233My group is fairly new and doesn't go in for much optimization. He preferred to fight from range so he fought from range. Is that such a difficult idea to grasp?

[Namfuak]

My group is fairly new and doesn't go in for much optimization. He preferred to fight from range so he fought from range. Is that such a difficult idea to grasp?

Well, that's actually a very important distinction. If he doesn't plan to do so again, and his beef with the rogue was that it did not feel powerful enough in combat to him, that makes all the choices we are suggesting seem fairly good. However, if he wants to do sneaky archery again, straight factotum or beguiler would probably not be the way to go - instead, we might suggest a sneaky Swift Hunter build (maybe with a couple rogue levels to take the other feat that combines skirmish and sneak attack dice), or maybe a factotum/zen archery cleric build.

[Gavinfoxx]

My group is fairly new and doesn't go in for much optimization. He preferred to fight from range so he fought from range. Is that such a difficult idea to grasp?

The rogue is not designed as a ranged class, without a lot of optimization... If you want a ranged class or build, use a class or set of classes designed, or competent for such, or use methods that tend to work for the class in question. So for the rogue, you could with quickdraw and two weapon fighting and precise shot and point blank shot and stuff a whoooole lot of alchemist's fire. And as long as you have a ring of blink, or the wizard has greased the enemies, you can get sneak attack with every single throw!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0

Rogue CAN be a competent ranged character, if you know what you are doing...

look at the rogue handbook, specifically this bit:

"Splash Weapons
Description: This form of combat involves throwing splash weapons (Acid, Alchemist's Fire, Alchemist's FrostECS, Alchemist's SparkECS) at enemies and Sneak Attacking with them. These Sneak Attacks deal the same type of damage as the splash weapon would normally deal.
Advantages: The main advantage of using splash weapons is that all of them are resolved as touch attacks, so they're much easier to hit with. You also get to full attack using them, which makes them more effective at dealing damage than ray or orb spells. They work fine even in Anti-magic Fields, and they have enough range that you can potentially be outside full attack melee range while using them.
Disadvantages: These splash weapons deal typed damage, so certain enemies may resist them, though you have four types to choose from. Their range is pretty small, so you'll have to be pretty close by for them to work, meaning you're often in pounce range or even regular full attack range if an enemy has reach. The biggest problem is that alchemical vials can be fairly expensive if used in bulk, so this can be a hit to your WBL if you use them too much (though that's much less important at high levels)."

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157722

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Gavinfoxx: Just in case you hadn't realized:

1) This thread asked for suggestions for a non-rogue class, not an explanation for why my player (who was playing for the first time, mind you) was using his rogue wrong.

2) Neither of your posts had a single thing to do with what the thread was actually asking for.

3) Even if they had, my player has a new character he's quite happy with (as per my post at 7:12 last night), and has since before you first posted in here, so your posts would have been kind of pointless even if they were on topic.

Thanks to all who contributed suggestions.

Mods: The question has been answered and I think this thread can be safely closed.

[HunterOfJello]

Here are some additional feat suggestions...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

The most powerful non-cheesy option for a Factotum is the above Font of Inspiration - as many times as you can, cause it only gets better the more you take it.


LOL you might want to take back the non-cheesy part. If you take Font of Inspiration enough, it can become pretty cheesy. It's great if you limit it or the player doesn't go overboard, but it gets every so deliciously cheesy when you take it and begin gaining 6 or 8 extra inspiration points from the feat.

Normal Inspiration Progression
level 1 = 2
level 3 = 3
level 6 = 4
level 9 = 5

Human with only Font of Inspiration feats up to level 9
level 1 = 2 +1 +2 =5
level 3 = 3 +1 +2 +3 =9
level 6 = 4 +1 +2 +3 +4 = 16
level 9 = 5 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 = 20

[Chronos]

Although, you'll probably have a hard time using all that inspiration until you get to Cunning Surge at level 8.

[Manateee]

Given the way people treat the Factotum's sneak attack as equivalent to the Rogue's, there's enough inspiration to last *maybe* one round of attacks at level 7.

[Ellrin]

I think the reason he wasn't too eager to play a rogue again was just that he didn't think he contributed much. Sure he could be the party face and skill monkey, finding and disabling traps and whatnot, but whenever combat came up (and he played in a time when the campaign was pretty combat heavy) he felt like all he could really do was hide, take a shot with a crossbow for sneak attack damage and repeat.

He's settled on a beguiler and we had a brief session this afternoon. He seemed to like it a lot better as the spells give him a ton more options and more to do in and out of combat.

Thanks for all the help.

Awesome. I broke my D&D cherry on beguiler. Love 'em.

I mean, I was super stressed about the whole "WOW I HAVE SO MANY SPELLS WHAT THE HECK DOES THIS ONE DO," but I loved it nonetheless.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Question answered, thread closed by request of OP.