MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (Please Read the First Post)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 240 pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous four) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.


For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
For other analysis, check section 4
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 5



Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7252), so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.

Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.

Notes:

Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.

Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's First look at MitD:

:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"

Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:

:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."

Nature of the darkness around MitD:

Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?


Section 1b: Other Info

Legal IssuesPlease see section 5a - Inappropriate topics. Discussion of RL law topics is against board rules. What follows is my write-up of the issue, but further discussion will be reported to the moderators.
Many ideas proposed in this thread have been the Intellectual Property (IP) of major multinationals. As such, all such ideas have been grouped in section 3c, "copyright ideas". The use of any of these ideas for MitD could potential land Rich Burlew into a heap of trouble, but there are provisions for this in copyright law, under fair use. However, it is likely that fair use cannot be applied to MitD:

If you go to the page on fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) in the wikipedia, it tells of four factors all of which must be included to consider a use of copyright fair use. The first is "purpose and character" and, broadly, says that the parody must be of the copyrighted work, and not of something else - that you may use barbie dolls to parody barbie culture, but not use a photo to parody the US culture in general is the example. MitD might be a parody of D&D, since the comic itself is, but I believe we can all agree that it is not parodying either pokemon or FF or any other work. Indeed, MitD on his own hardly parodies anything. And if it did, MitD would then be an original creation of Rich, just like his "Evil Kitty" brand of umbrella, and as such would violate Rich's assurance that he didn't make MitD up.

The second factor is nature of the copied work. Not being an IP lawyer, I don't understand it fully, but seems to say the copyright holder has a worse chance at retaining copyright if the original work is non-fiction. Since every proposal discussed here is fictional, this is of little relevance - e.g. Square Enix obviously has copyright over any and all of their unique creations, there is no "public interest" in making, say, FF's Black Mages belong to the public domain.

The third factor is amount and substantiality. Since MitD would be a very small part of the original work, this is the only grounds in which Rich might have solid grounding. Recent developments in copyright law, however, have made this target smaller and smaller. Notice that Rich was worried about even single-panel use of some other cartoonists' IP property in the last Dragon Magazine comic.

The fourth factor is effect upon work's value. The important thing here is that the copyright holder need only demonstrate that "such uses in general, if widespread, would harm the potential market of the original". For example, in the case of Final Fantasy's black mage, that its presence in webcomics could potentially harm Square Enix's own plans for a webcomic down the line. This is a very wide allegation, that Rich could not defend against - people might get tired of having FF Black Mages as characters in comics. (Note that parody and criticism are specifically singled out in this category as valid uses, and that MitD is neither).

Finally, outside of the actual law basis, there is one last consideration, that I suspect is at the forefront of Rich's mind when dealing with copyright issues: what is known as the "chilling effects" (scroll down to 'Fair use as a defense'), which comes down to: if accused of copyright violation, it is the defendant (i.e. the person reusing a copyright, i.e. Rich) that has the burden of proof. Square Enix only has to send a lawyer to say before the judge "copyright violation", and Rich would then have to prove it is not. This is almost unsurmountable for an individual that is not in extremely firm ground, and Rich is nowhere near that.
The Escape
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subejcts of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)


The Tower SceneIt is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10268123&postcount=1294), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10273181&postcount=1311) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10276066&postcount=1314).


Section 1c: Useful Links

Every single MitD Strip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11262558&postcount=427) (probably not being maintained)
lothos' explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR



Version History
1.0 Up to date to end of Previous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189676) thread
1.4 Up to date to end of page 20
1.6 Up to date to end of page 30
1.8 Up to date to end of page 40

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
BodyRedCloak suggest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
DietMitD is almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)

GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other.
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"


LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. He also leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker). The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.

Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large).
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never bigger ones smaller.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)
RedCloak was able to lift him and his box onto a wagon in SoD
Due to RedCloak's likely build (spell-oriented cleric), this can be disregarded as a clue, since it is entirely possible that RC isn't strong enough to lift even the empty box, never mind MitD's weight inside (unless MitD is buoyant).

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower in nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into Account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into Account:

It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense.

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O'Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into Account:

MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:

During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. But at the circus, he has to rock his box to get to the stew. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O'Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though.
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O'Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
Speechthe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)

This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).

It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.

Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following:
- NOT a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
- NOT Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
- NOT Ooze (has a body)
- NOT Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
- NOT Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Challenge RatingRich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:

He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes

DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind)
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" by another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters and RedCloak (see Section 1a) have claimed to know what he is, while what looks like a wizard in the circus audience admitted he'd never seen anything like it. MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is.
It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.

Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.

Section 2d: AugmentationA number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding tempaltes, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.

Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will

*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.

*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.

The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:

Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.

Cons:

No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).


Templated/Mixed lineage CreatureA whole range of possibilities, it suggests MitD is a stack of Templates rather than a specific monster type.
Pros: Can be templated to have:

Teleportation
Psionics
Earthquake
Unnerving Gaze

Cons:

No Wish template
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these"
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents

Proposed combinations:

half giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One

Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg

Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 18 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")
ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control

PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the "big 3" scenes of MitD: the circus scene (particularly the requirement to both be a circus act where nothing is done, and the varied response from the public), the tower scene (that is, the ability to punch a person and a horse through a wall when trying to "hit light") and the escape scene (i.e. teleportation of O'Chul and V). The proposals may still have other objections (such as size problems, or simply that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D), but must NOT belong to the discarded categories (see Section 2c: Categories), unless they are somehow exceptional (e.g. an undead that eats burgers and sleeps).

Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:

28 Strength
Effective caster level 16th would allow him to have greater teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
 Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water) Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)

Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.

Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells

Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:

Great strength (53)
teleportation (plane shift) abilities
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Has no languages, thus being surprising it can talk.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.

Cons:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its powers are psionic-based (see 2b Psionics).
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)

Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can use a teraport to teleport
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a SF character from another comic in his fantasy comic.

Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one fits in the box/umbrella. Black only in the box.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk. Unless, that is, slaads usually talk like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html) (but this is probably Rule of Funny)
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


Uvuudaum (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html#uvuudaum)Pros:

greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box (not so much under the umbrella)
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.

Cons:
Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.



Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.
Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite, nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has been in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light.
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold


Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 1b Legal Issues)

Boggart (Harry Potter)
Diawolf
Domo-kun
Father (KND)
FF Black Mage
FF Red Mage
Godzilla & pals
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump
Kirby
SnorlaxA great fit, since "They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes", is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping. It also grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11''). Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
Shadow (from Babylon 5)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (from Megami Tensei)
Skull (from PvP)
Tonberri
Vatch (from Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (from Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (from Dr. Who)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi
Q (from Star Trek)

Section 3d: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all 3 major MitD scenes (circus; tower; escape. See 3a)

Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel might be a form of teleport (unclear), fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:

Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.

Cons:

Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children


Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
CuatlCannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough), since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:

Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish
Fairly powerful
Cons: Too big
No parent
Unlikely to change morality (since it is a denizen of a morality plane)
Low CR
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gozilla (& family)Too big, unclear how they account for the escape. Copyright issues possible
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)Too many eyes, and unclear how it accounts for the escape.
GrendelUnclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength, defences, earthquake ability.
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being gargantuan, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Psionic powers could explain the earthquake, but not the tower scene.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accoutns for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
JaberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jaberwocky is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these".
King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lamassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish

Cons:

Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
SnarkCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.

Section 3e: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever: http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/funny-pictures-you-have-a-very-dangerous-box.jpg
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):
-A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
-It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
-Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
-Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
-It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
-I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
-The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!
A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 4: Appendices

This space is for discussion of topics only tangentially related to MitD, but that nevertheless keep coming up

Section 4a: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.


The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).

From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:

{TABLE]Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils|Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons|Lawful Good: Archons
Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons|True Neutral: Rilmani|Neutral Good: Guardinals
Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons|Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi|Chaotic Good: Eladrin[/TABLE]


Section 4b: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 4c: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.
Section 4d: Recognising MitDThere have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.

On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 4e: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 4f: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:

I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.

On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.

As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 5: Thread Information

Section 5a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:

CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread


What I can't do

I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section 5b - Inappropriate Topics
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.


Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Postive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post (usually at the end of every page divisible by 10), I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request the voting to happen, you need the normal +2 votes.

Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:

Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 4a). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.

Section 5b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:

Semi-public vote: votes will be PM'ed to me, the curator, to prevent the thread from being spammed by multiple short "vote for X" posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping. To prevent fraud, please be ready to reaffirm your vote if someone else PMs you to ask about it.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting (and pithy name, if you can think of one).
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.


Section 5c: FAQ

Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.

If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).

If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.

For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time. But, time permitting, every ten pages (at the end of page 10, 20, 30 & 40) I do "first post refreshes" where I add all new proposed ideas, and I may add entire new sections. See rules for the refreshes in section 5a.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Proposals are added during first post refreshes (every 10 pages, unless I am very busy). For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:

Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.

Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by consensus are:

Have an explanation for the escape. Current standard is "at least as good as teleport"
Have an explanation for the Tower scene. Current standard is Strength 28+, and defences decent enough to ignore Miko's attack
Have an explanation for the Circus scene. Must explain both the act (an unrecognisable "IT" that just stands there) and the reactions (vomiting, nausea, and other indications of disgust)
Not belong to any of the categories in section 2c - categories, unless it is an exception to the reasons listed.

Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 5a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and excepts us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates. There remains a lot of material to explore.

[Savannah]

Complete list of MitD strips (in progress)

Key:
Purple = strips prior to Rich knowing what the MitD is
Italics = MitD mentioned but does not appear


Start of Darkness

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Rainforest, 29 years ago
Page 49|MitD captured
Page 50|SBGH surprised MitD can talk, is in this part of the world[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Circus (3 years ago)
Page 83|MitD likes stew, about to be revealed
Page 84|CIRCUS SCENE, it's hard for MitD to be looked at by a lot of people at once
Page 85|MitD knows Right-Eye's family, playing with toys
Page 88|MitD meets Redcloak, Redcloak says he could escape if he wanted to
Page 89|Redcloak is going to free MitD
Page 90-95|Breaking MitD out of the circus
Page 96|Xykon meets MitD, :xykon:: "You sure are one ugly sumbitch", MitD can be mind-controlled[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Taking Dungeon of Dorukan (6 months ago)
Page 100-101, 103, 105, 107, 109|MitD given control of zombies to attack tower, can't remember what to do, gets tacos instead
Page 110|MitD being carried into dungeon[/table]


Dungeon Crawlin' Fools

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Introductions
23 Meanwhile... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html)| MitD's first appearance, he wants out of the shadows
37 Evil, But Cost-Effective (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html)| Watching Roy set off the trapped door
47 But is it High Definition? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html)| Team Evil scrying on Order of the Stick/Linear Guild, MitD wants to watch Belkar and Yikyik fighting
82 Beats Pay-Per-View (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html)| Eating popcorn and watching Durkon and Hilgya have sex. MitD is (currently) in magical darkness[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
The Gates
85b A High Turnover Career|Panel 8: Xykon says MitD whines a lot
95 Dead Men Tell Tales (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html)| Panel 3: Redcloak says MitD is attracting more demon-roaches
96 Gate? What Gate? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html)|MitD can't see/doesn't recognize as gate/instantly forgets ginormous gate.
97 Evil Plans (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html)|Joining in a hearty evil villain laugh.[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Fighting the Order
103 Practice Makes Perfect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html)|MitD practicing for his big reveal
105 Hordes of Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)|MitD waiting behind the throne
106 A Sure Bet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)|Waiting, :mitd:: "Wait, what gate?"
109 Tensions Rise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html)|Still waiting
110 Revenge is Best Served Really Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)|Ditto
113 Memories, Like the Edges of My Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html)|Ditto
114 Exciting Climax (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)|MitD about to jump out of the shadows
117 Delayed Gratification (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html)|Wants to kill and eat the Order
120 The End of the Beginning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)|Fleeing through tunnel with Redcloak[/table]



No Cure for the Paladin Blues

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Recap
??|MitD appears briefly in Elan's finger puppet recap of the events of the previous book
??|MitD is given a brief introduction on the Cast of Characters[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Recruiting the hobgoblins
147 The Light at the End of the Tunnel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html)|MitD wants to hold Xykon's phylacetry but can't because he might break it. Excited to get out of the shadows. Introduction of pink umbrella.
148 Hobgoblins and You (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html)|Grumbling about umbrella
149 Cultural Differences (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html)|Watching Redcloak become hobgoblin supreme leader.[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Retaking Xykon's tower
190 A Lesson in Resource Management (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html)|MitD respects how Redcloak isn't going to send hobgoblins to their deaths, despite hating them
191 Dungeon Real Estate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html)|MitD scared to go into Xykon's old tower, :xykon:"there's nothing in there any scarier than you - Correction: any scarier than you SHOULD be."
192 Everything Sits Better on a Ritz (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html)|Outside Xykon's tower
194 You Light Up My Life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html)|MitD wants lantern archons to hit him with their light attacks
194a Quit Dragon My Heart Around|Xykon and Redcloak can't see MitD - he's permanently shrouded in magical darkness according to Redcloak
194b Post-Dragon|Reading a pamphlet from the forces of good
195 Book Nook (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html)|Watching while Redcloak and Xykon search for Serini's diary
196 The Diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)|Plot exposition for Xykon's plan, :mitd: "What "gate" do you guys keep talking about?"[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Preparing to march
299 A Calling Missed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html)|MitD wants to help, according to Redcloack the only way he can help zombify monsters is to volunteer as raw materials or gain five levels in cleric overnight[/table]



War and XPs

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Recap & Bonus
?? | MitD is mentioned on the Cast of Characters page
?? | MitD mentioned in passing in Vaarsuvius' plot recap
Round 4 commentary bonus cartoon | MitD is too tall to be a kobold[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Marching
331 For the Future (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)|MitD marching with the hobgoblins[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
The Tower
368 All Along the Watchtower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) | MitD says he eats to fill the loneliness
369 Fight! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) | Cheering Redcloak against Miko
371 The Road to Heck (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) | Watching Redcloak, Xykon and Miko talk
373 Caged (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) | MitD is waiting for Miko after she escapes
374 Black and Blue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) | TOWER SCENE, Miko's attacks just tickle MitD, who can hit the lightest competition
375 Undeliverable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) | MitD eats the letter Miko was carrying, gets papercut on his tongue
376 All Too Easy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) | Xykon left MitD to guard Miko so that she would be sure to escape[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Preparing the Attack
414 Noble is Goodble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html)|MitD is playing yahtzee with Xykon and Redcloak
415 Idiot Box (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)| Watching TeeVo with Xykon and Redcloak, :mitd:: "Gate?"
415a Hey, What's Wrong with Crayons?|MitD drew tactical plan, wants to smash through Azure City walls[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}
Battle of Azure City
422 March to War (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html)|MitD shocked that Redcloak is bossing "Xykon" around
426 Three of a Kind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html)|Hanging out in the back with Redcloak and "Xykon", doesn't understand why there are three "Xykons"
428 It Takes a Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)|Still hanging out in the back
431 My Three Xykons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html)|MitD still doesn't get the multiple Xykons, even after Redcloak explains it
447 Guarding the Sapphire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html)|In the back with Redcloak
450 Wands Are for Suckers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html)|MitD visible as tiny dot in back with Redcloak
451 Change of Direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)| Wants to devour someone and get a new pet to ride
463 Shattered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html)| Having a tea party when O-Chul drops in
474 The Body Snatcher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html)|MitD having a tea party with O-Chul and Roy's corpse; Belkar tracking MitD :belkar:: tracks are weird, definitely not hobgoblin or undead Roy
Crashing the Party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)|Belkar and Haley try to take O-Chul and Roy's corpse back from MitD; MitD yells loud enough to shake the ground and blow hair/cloaks back, is excited to eat moldy cheeseburgers, thinks he's seen Haley and Belkar somewhere before
476 I Don't Suppose You Have Any Nutmeg? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) | MitD remembers he was supposed to devour Haley and Belkar
477 Shock and Awwwwww (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)|MitD can't decide if he should devour Haley and Belkar now, doesn't even notice a full attack from Belkar, gives a tiny stomp and creates a massive earthquake (:mitd:: "Wow! I didn't know I could do that!!") after which he is suddenly tired
484 At the End of the Day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html)|MitD dragging O-Chul into Azure City[/table]


Don't Split the Party (in progress)
{table=head]{colsp=2}
Introduction
??|MitD appears on Cast of Characters page[/table]


Online strips (coming soon)

[ThePhantasm]

Love the new thread name.

[Fitzclowningham]

About Sabine's speech bubbles - a big part of a Succubus' MO is to appear to be something other than a demon to seduce (demi)human(oid)s. The ability to speak the same way as her prey would go hand in hand with her change shape ability. The MitD doesn't appear to have the guile to deliberately alter his speech, so I think we could deduce something from it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

About Sabine's speech bubbles - a big part of a Succubus' MO is to appear to be something other than a demon to seduce (demi)human(oid)s. The ability to speak the same way as her prey would go hand in hand with her change shape ability. The MitD doesn't appear to have the guile to deliberately alter his speech, so I think we could deduce something from it.

Note that the exact comic I linked in the explanation is of Sabine in her natural form, and yet her speech remains unchanged. While it could be that she is faking her voice while revealing her bat wings, that is more of a stretch than the possibility that not all demons have deep, black-on-red voices.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is, however, no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box or MitD, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring that is not present on either.
Strip 830 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) shows us a room that is dimensionally locked while not being visually altered in any discernable way. Granted, Redcloak doesn’t capitalize “dimensionally locked” so it might be under the effect of a Forbiddance spell as opposed to Dimensional Lock proper, but Tsukiko doesn’t strike me as the Lawful Evil type, and she showed no evident damage when Redcloak found her in his study. Point is, Dimensional Lock might not have the same visual effect as Dimensional Anchor.

Wish or some kind of reality revision still explains the Escape scene better than any version of Teleport, but the first post is overly exclusive of the possibility of Dimensional Lock being placed on the box.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Strip 830 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) shows us a room that is dimensionally locked while not being visually altered in any discernable way. Granted, Redcloak doesn’t capitalize “dimensionally locked” so it might be under the effect of a Forbiddance spell as opposed to Dimensional Lock proper, but Tsukiko doesn’t strike me as the Lawful Evil type, and she showed no evident damage when Redcloak found her in his study. Point is, Dimensional Lock might not have the same visual effect as Dimensional Anchor.

Wish or some kind of reality revision still explains the Escape scene better than any version of Teleport, but the first post is overly exclusive of the possibility of Dimensional Lock being placed on the box.

The outside of the room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) has a green tinge that might be just a poor taste in interior decoration, or it could be the visual sign of dimensional lock.

Grey Wolf

[Gift Jeraff]

Love the new thread name.Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

I really love my idea for MitD VI, but I'll save it for when the time is right...

[Qwertystop]

The outside of the room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) has a green tinge that might be just a poor taste in interior decoration, or it could be the visual sign of dimensional lock.

Grey Wolf

Wow, nice catch.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's the same colour as most of Xykon's Tower, though, as seen in the last 2 strips and even the exterior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html).

[Zerter]

I don't think dread linnorm and neothlid fit at all. If it turned out to be either it would require way to much explaining the cons away (sure it's possible with the right backstory, but it's also possible the MitD is an ant with the right backstory). The others could fit though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's the same colour as most of Xykon's Tower, though, as seen in the last 2 strips and even the exterior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html).

I am aware, that's why I hedged with poor taste. Nevertheless, there is no way to know if the green outside RC's is just paint or cleverly camouflaged visual cue. On the other hand, we have positive evidence that anchor lock does have a visual cue. A certain visual cue on one side, with an uncertain one on the other still suggests both are visual cues (or Rich just forgot in the case of the office).

Edit: I'm going to add that the inside of the office isn't green, so it isn't that the tower's building blocks are that colour.

Edit 2:

I don't think dread linnorm and neothlid fit at all. If it turned out to be either it would require way to much explaining the cons away (sure it's possible with the right backstory, but it's also possible the MitD is an ant with the right backstory). The others could fit though.

I'm guessing that you've only looked at the forerunners. You also seem to misunderstand the purpose of the category.

Grey Wolf

[Savannah]

Alright, gotta run to the store, but there's at least the beginnings of a index of strips.

[Zerter]

I'm guessing that you've only looked at the forerunners. You also seem to misunderstand the purpose of the category.

I've actually read the entire thread. I might not understand the purpose of the category (I thought it was the category for the ones most likely to fit), but those that I named above and Snorlax (which just fits so perfectly that I hope one day someone violates some law to find out if there's been any contact between oots and whoeever owns Pokemon around 2004) are the only ones I see of having any shot at fitting.

[Irish Musician]

GW , I know you are going to hate me for asking this, esp on a nice clean brand new thread and all, but how fineis the "line between something [Rich] made up and something someone else made up?"

Also, awesome new thread by the way, do love the name, excited to be here for one that starts from scratch!!:smallbiggrin:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

GW , I know you are going to hate me for asking this, esp on a nice clean brand new thread and all, but how fineis the "line between something [Rich] made up and something someone else made up?"

For the sake of the discussion, picture a person who knows absolutely nothing of D&D. Mothers and grandmothers are good picks for this. Imagine you go to this person and explain about this book you read, where there is a character that is surrounded in mystery, and that you think it is either a Tarrasque or a therblewurkersaurus.

Do you think this hypothetical person will see a difference between the two? Or is she going to think that they're pretty much the same thing, an invented creature? That's what the fine line is: every single idea being discussed in this thread is an invention of a human mind, since in the real world there are no creatures that fit under an umbrella who can punch horses through walls. So when Rich tells us that the human mind that invented the creature is not his human mind, he is just drawing a line in the desert. There is sand on both sides and, to an independent observer, there is no difference between the sand on one side and the other.

Grey Wolf

[Zerter]

Hey, I have a question, how come the hello kitty umbrella is apparantly not in violation of the copyright law, but a bunch of mitd-related ideas are (probably anyway)?

[Irish Musician]

Right, I mean I get that part of it. I guess what I am asking is, what exactly is on either side of that line in the sand. Does that mean that the MitD is something that is already thought of and published and that he did no modifying what-so-ever to it, or is it something that has been published that he might have changed or tweaked at all. I know you h ave gone over it, however I would greatly appreciate you going over it one more time so in the future I don't go too far off course in my guessing what MitD is, thanks GW.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hey, I have a question, how come the hello kitty umbrella is apparantly not in violation of the copyright law, but a bunch of mitd-related ideas are (probably anyway)?

It's an evil kitty, i.e. a parody of the hello kitty icon, not the hello kitty icon itself.


Right, I mean I get that part of it. I guess what I am asking is, what exactly is on either side of that line in the sand. Does that mean that the MitD is something that is already thought of and published and that he did no modifying what-so-ever to it, or is it something that has been published that he might have changed or tweaked at all. I know you h ave gone over it, however I would greatly appreciate you going over it one more time so in the future I don't go too far off course in my guessing what MitD is, thanks GW.

We cannot know how much he has modified it, but we know he almost certainly has: the base creature of MitD almost certainly can't talk. The difference between this modification and any other being proposed is that this one was lampshaded.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Hey, I have a question, how come the hello kitty umbrella is apparantly not in violation of the copyright law, but a bunch of mitd-related ideas are (probably anyway)?
First, it's not a "hello kitty" umbrella--it's a "hello mutant" umbrella. Yes, that matters; see Dungeon Crawling Fools, which, unlike the online strip, carefully avoids using the words "illithid" or "mind flayer."

Second, it's a pink umbrella, a humorous prop, not a fairly major character.

The second clause is why the creature in the darkness is probably not going to turn out to be a "Snarlox."

[Zerter]

Let me rephrase the question: can't Rich use the same workaround for the actual MitD? How come he can use Hello Kitty (ONLY IT'S A PARODY!!, sorta) for the umbrella, but not Snorlax (ONLY IT'S A PARODY!!, sorta) for MitD? What's the difference?

I might just not understand your answer, they say there are no dumb questions, but what kind of questions do dumb people ask? And who are "they" anyway.

EDIT: Wow, someone answered before I asked the actual question, psychic powers detected X____X. Wonder if the guy that answered has the powers or me.

[Irish Musician]

We cannot know how much he has modified it, but we know he almost certainly has: the base creature of MitD almost certainly can't talk. The difference between this modification and any other being proposed is that this one was lampshaded.

Grey Wolf

Right...and I believe one of your points in the past is that if he modifies it too much, then it creeps over the line and becomes a creature of his own making, yes?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Let me rephrase the question: can't Rich use the same workaround for the actual MitD? How come he can use Hello Kitty (ONLY IT'S A PARODY!!, sorta) for the umbrella, but not Snorlax (ONLY IT'S A PARODY!!, sorta) for MitD? What's the difference?

A parody of what, precisely, would MitD be? It's a straight characterization of monsters lurking in the darkness. Parody is not a magical word you can just bring out to defend yourself against copyright violations, you have to be able to demonstrate it is a parody before a judge. Hello Kitty puts their silly icon on everything under the sun, from band-aids to heavy weaponry (http://www.kittyhell.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/hello-kitty-ar-15-rifle1.jpg), and so you can parody that tendency by making your own almost-same icon, but evil, and having evil characters use a similar brand to show just how absurd the idea is (and it is, indeed, very absurd). There was a very famous case of someone using barbie dolls to parody the barbie doll culture, who successfully won the copyright infringement case.

Now, I am of a position that MitD is not a parody of anything. Can you contradict me?


Right...and I believe one of your points in the past is that if he modifies it too much, then it creeps over the line and becomes a creature of his own making, yes?

No, not exactly. I would define my position as "if Rich modifies it at all without lampshading the fact he has, then it would be a creature of his own design, and would make the guessing game rather unfair, if not impossible".

Grey Wolf

[BlackestOfMages]

Let me rephrase the question: can't Rich use the same workaround for the actual MitD? How come he can use Hello Kitty (ONLY IT'S A PARODY!!, sorta) for the umbrella, but not Snorlax (ONLY IT'S A PARODY!!, sorta) for MitD? What's the difference?.

He could do so, if it was in fact a parody. the problem with a parody version of a monster would be a creature that rich made up to parody something else. thus it directly violates the "I didn't make it up" statement.

If MiTD is a parody, then it's his parody, thus his creation, and he can't actually use the origional without permision. There's also the fact that a parody - by law - isn't a parody unless it's obvious. if the "parody" is not obviously a parody (which MiTD isn't because we're trying to guess what he is) then it's just copyright infringment.

hope that helps

EDIT: also, theumbrella's a minor gag - and a recreation of merchandice - rather than an actual character. major difference there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He could do so, if it was in fact a parody. the problem with a parody version of a monster would be a creature that rich made up to parody something else. thus it directly violates the "I didn't make it up" statement.

If MiTD is a parody, then it's his parody, thus his creation, and he can't actually use the origional without permision. There's also the fact that a parody - by law - isn't a parody unless it's obvious. if the "parody" is not obviously a parody (which MiTD isn't because we're trying to guess what he is) then it's just copyright infringment.

hope that helps

This is an excellent point. I think I'm going to add it to the first post. Huh, never thought of it that way.

Thanks!

GW

[Irish Musician]

No, not exactly. I would define my position as "if Rich modifies it at all without lampshading the fact he has, then it would be a creature of his own design, and would make the guessing game rather unfair, if not impossible".

Grey Wolf

Ah, ok I gotcha. I don't disagree with any point you have made, just wanted to get my head straight, and you always seem to be able to explain things that makes sense to me, so thank you.

[Zerter]

Now, I am of a position that MitD is not a parody of anything. Can you contradict me?


Yes, I can. I could think of creature the MitD might be that would make it a parody. I won't actually do it though, because those creatures would be stupid.

EDIT: I also see my line of questioning lead to a change in the original post. No need to thank me!

[CloakedDancer]

Wow I'm late to the (new) party. A whole page in already. I just wanted to say that I really like the new first post(s). I'm also excited to see that list of strips MitD has appeared in.

[DaggerPen]

A quick thought about MitD's limbs- we've already stated that his limbs seem to be dextrous enough to hold crayons (if he's not using psionics or something, of course), but could it further be said that he needs to have either fine motor control enough to move the Go pieces (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) or some type of telekinetic ability in his game with O'Chul?

Actually, that whole scene is an interesting one. Assuming that MitD is not moving it with any type of telekinesis, how is he moving the pieces? He must be moving them under his own power- if O'Chul were moving the pieces for him, he would have told him where he wanted the piece to go at some point in their exchange, and wouldn't have had to tell O'Chul it was his turn. The pieces are all on the ground, so if he's reaching through the window thing, he must have reasonably long arms (compare the height of the window with O'Chul's kneeling height), which could be further indications of either a larger size or shapeshifting abilities. I don't really see any other way for him to reach the pieces, either.

[PseudoPserious]

Hey GW,

Minor typo in Section 2d in the Psychic block: "psichic" in the sub-bullet.

Thanks for all the effort,
PP

[silversaraph]

A quick thought about MitD's limbs- we've already stated that his limbs seem to be dextrous enough to hold crayons (if he's not using psionics or something, of course), but could it further be said that he needs to have either fine motor control enough to move the Go pieces (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) or some type of telekinetic ability in his game with O'Chul?

Actually, that whole scene is an interesting one. Assuming that MitD is not moving it with any type of telekinesis, how is he moving the pieces? He must be moving them under his own power- if O'Chul were moving the pieces for him, he would have told him where he wanted the piece to go at some point in their exchange, and wouldn't have had to tell O'Chul it was his turn. The pieces are all on the ground, so if he's reaching through the window thing, he must have reasonably long arms (compare the height of the window with O'Chul's kneeling height), which could be further indications of either a larger size or shapeshifting abilities. I don't really see any other way for him to reach the pieces, either.

I've thought about this, and I'm actually really surprised it's not in the first post. Especially since you'll notice he's looking straight ahead, and not leaning down or anything. Additionally, the art of that might give another clue... how he can manipulate something as tiny as Go pieces without looking at them? In the sixth panel, he is also looking directly at O-chul and not at all at the pieces, yet notices a detail so small. Reminds me of a floating eyeball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) kind of ability

We know that the MitD CAN look down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html). Why doesn't he, in a situation requiring careful, precise movements? It's almost like the giant is telling us "because he doesn't HAVE to."

...waved away as "art style and nothing else" in three, two, one...

[Brahamut]

Now that I know the origin of the Hagunemnon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Gu ide_to_the_Galaxy#Haggunenons), I want the MitD to be one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A quick thought about MitD's limbs- we've already stated that his limbs seem to be dextrous enough to hold crayons (if he's not using psionics or something, of course), but could it further be said that he needs to have either fine motor control enough to move the Go pieces (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) or some type of telekinetic ability in his game with O'Chul?

Actually, that whole scene is an interesting one. Assuming that MitD is not moving it with any type of telekinesis, how is he moving the pieces? He must be moving them under his own power- if O'Chul were moving the pieces for him, he would have told him where he wanted the piece to go at some point in their exchange, and wouldn't have had to tell O'Chul it was his turn. The pieces are all on the ground, so if he's reaching through the window thing, he must have reasonably long arms (compare the height of the window with O'Chul's kneeling height), which could be further indications of either a larger size or shapeshifting abilities. I don't really see any other way for him to reach the pieces, either.

I don't have an answer for you, sorry; hopefully someone will have an idea. But any explanation also needs to take into account that he couldn't get to his stew in the circus, and had to rock the box to hook the bucket with a rivet.

I think - but can't really support - that the Go game was a mere prop for the conversation and that Rich didn't want to break the flow of talking by adding "OK, place mine in between your two over there. No, not there, a bit to the left. The other left."

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

I think - but can't really support - that the Go game was a mere prop for the conversation and that Rich didn't want to break the flow of talking by adding "OK, place mine in between your two over there. No, not there, a bit to the left. The other left."

Grey Wolf

I think I am on GW on this one. It very well might be a clue, but there are so many other instances where the MitD is holding things, we just don't see his limbs on account of Rich not wanting to give us too much of a clue. I mean he holds money, the bucket for the soup, and I believe there are a couple other of instances where he is "holding" things.

So while that is a very good observation, I don't think it is a clue, really. However I could be completely wrong :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

So. MitD has some vaguely-defined connection to the Astral Plane. Now, what does that imply?

[Gift Jeraff]

It's not a game-changer, but it looks like creatures tied to the Astral Plane will get bonus points.

EDIT: Ninja.

[Aldreck]

New strips up, and a new bit of info with it: MitD likes being on the astral plane, despite having no memory of ever having been there.

edit: ninja'd

[KillItWithFire]

This new comic (833) seems to imply that MitD is from the Astral Plane. If that is true it would narrow our choices a lot.

Wow, triple ninja.

[DaggerPen]

This new comic (833) seems to imply that MitD is from the Astral Plane. If that is true it would narrow our choices a lot.

It could also imply that he at one point messed around with Plane Shift and ended up there, I think, though we'd have to explain why he didn't know he could do anything like teleporting people. I doubt he managed to trigger plane shift while trying to teleport later, though, or else how would he have gotten back to the tower?

Though, didn't MitD at one point talk about other planes like he wasn't quite sure what they were? I'm on my way out the door, so I can't look up the reference, but it was the one where he was talking about someone checking O'Chul's shoes. Don't really have time to speculate on it now, but thought it was worth pointing out.

[Lvl45DM!]

Dude now he's just toying with us. And I don't know how it works in 3.5 but in 1st edition you had to go through the astral to get to any outer plane.

[Madwand]

Dude now he's just toying with us. And I don't know how it works in 3.5 but in 1st edition you had to go through the astral to get to any outer plane.

So.. should we find the old edition of Monstrous Compendium and start search for per-3.x edition mosters? Haley father is "1st edition rogue" so maybe MitD can be 2ed moster?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And yet he doesn't remember having been there, and it is surprising (to Xykon, anyway) that he would have. It's not really much of a solid fact - it can easily spin any way you want it to. It's not going to discard any creatures. Those with no connection can use MitD's goofiness. Those with some connection (but still belonging to the material plane) can mention it. Those belonging to the outside planes can mention him having passed through it to the material plane. Nope, nothing much. But at least we are getting a few shards here and there, and if we are lucky (I doubt it, I think we're about to cut to the OotS now) we'll get a few other hints in the next few comics.

Edit:

So.. should we find the old edition of Monstrous Compendium and start search for per-3.x edition mosters? Haley father is "1st edition rogue" so maybe MitD can be 2ed moster?

He might be, but he'd need a reason not to be trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with every other 2nd ed monster.

Grey Wolf

[Seharvepernfan]

I'm kinda surprised nobody proposed the astral dreadnaught.

Pros:
-his father was very big
-he eats a lot
-high str
-ugly, yet beautiful
-surprising to find one on the material plane

Cons:
-endless tail
-MitD has two eyes
-MitD doesn't fly
-Xykon: "When the hell were you ever on the Astral Plane?" surely Xykon or Redcloak would know what an astral dreadnaught its

[Lvl45DM!]

So.. should we find the old edition of Monstrous Compendium and start search for per-3.x edition mosters? Haley father is "1st edition rogue" so maybe MitD can be 2ed moster?

What? No. I'm saying that by that editions rules if MitD was from ANY outer plan from the Seven Heavens to the Nine Hells, he would've come through the Astral to get to the Prime. But I don't know how it works in 3.5 maybe he could've skipped the whole shebang

[Hatchet]

It may or may not have been on the Astral Plane, but at the very least it knows some things about it.

Maybe it has Knowledge(Planes)?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Though, didn't MitD at one point talk about other planes like he wasn't quite sure what they were? I'm on my way out the door, so I can't look up the reference, but it was the one where he was talking about someone checking O'Chul's shoes. Don't really have time to speculate on it now, but thought it was worth pointing out.

Dagger Pen, you want this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) comic. General impression is that he has no idea of what the planes are. Rule of Funny is in effect, though.


I'm kinda surprised nobody proposed the astral dreadnaught.

The astral dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm) is also colossal, so it doesn't fit under the umbrella, has only one eye, and as far as I can tell has no way of explaining the escape.

Grey Wolf

[Lvl45DM!]

Could also be another application of his high Int. Afterall he only talks about the plane after he sees it. Silvery is self explanatory and he saw Xykons fortress floating when X cast "Summon Plot Exposition" :smalltongue:
No but seriously could just be a result of high Int, deducing what he sees

[BaronOfHell]

It may be the rule of funny in effect, but I can't help but notice that when MitD sees something, it seems to be able to gain information about it, but not about the gates.

Though this is only from what I remember, there may be cases that goes against this idea, which I have forgotten about.

Something else is that the MitD seems able to grant people what they want to a large extend, despite not trying to do this specifically. The Earthquake the roaches wanted, Miko's escape, the ritual, O-Chul escaping. In all these cases there was at least one party which gained something positive from his display of power. Again this may merely be rule of funny in effect.

[Hatchet]

I think all the arguments for the Pseudonatural template also just got a bit more convincing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Something else is that the MitD seems able to grant people what they want to a large extend, despite not trying to do this specifically. The Earthquake the roaches wanted, Miko's escape, the ritual, O-Chul escaping. In all these cases there was at least one party which gained something positive from his display of power. Again this may merely be rule of funny in effect.

You are conflating circumstances that are not really the same. Yes, MitD does cause things to happen: it is called advancing the plot. The roach's description of the first earthquake strongly suggests that it accomplished nothing. Xykon and RC were counting on MitD letting Miko escape due to his general incompetency. MitD did not give Tsukiko much, only a starting point, and it wasn't from a "display of power".


I think all the arguments for the Pseudonatural template also just got a bit more convincing.

No, I don't really think they have. As I found for DaggerPen, MitD has admitted to knowing nothing about the planes before. And his admission on today's strip is pretty much null value. Yes, I'd be inclined towards the possibility that he has seen it before, possibly briefly. But a creature born in the planes would be far more certain of having been there, and Xykon would not be surprised if his pet Cthulhu had mentioned liking the outer planes.

Grey Wolf

[Dark Matter]

There's another potential clue here. "I don't remember".

Maybe he's NOT a child and he's just childlike because he's got amnesia?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's another potential clue here. "I don't remember".

Maybe he's NOT a child and he's just childlike because he's got amnesia?

Because we can all hope that Rich will not fall back on that terrible cliché?

Edit:
Well, the astral plane comment from 833 sounds like another huge hint at what mitd is supposed to be. His comment strongly suggests he's been on the astral plane before, and not just knows about it.

Every new bit of info always feels like "huge" when it first comes out. This one is hedged three ways till Tuesday, and it is vague to boot.

GW

[Hardcore]

If he had been on the Astral plane while in a trance state, then it could explain why he could recognise it, but not directly remember it.
Actually, a "astral dreadnaught" could very well be MitDs form in such a state.*
Note that he doesn't need to look the same on the material plane!

*I read GWs link and found that the "endlessly long tail" could actually be a chord to the real creature on the material plane.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Note that he doesn't need to look the same on the material plane!

How so?

GW

[Savannah]

His comment strongly suggests he's been on the astral plane before, and not just knows about it.

Or, ya know, that he has a crazy high Knowledge (the planes) modifier, so he immediately knows about it the way he immediately knew that the ritual was half a ritual.

[Hardcore]

Well, because it is a projection. In Katerin Kerrs books (based on celtic mythology) the looks of the astral body is subject to will, among other things. Dark practitioners like to make their projections gruesome with severed heads as ornaments etc.
Then the astral bodies of Westlanders (elfs:)) appear as a flame on the astral plane. (That is a racial thing.)

I don't know if the DnD rules give any pertinent info on this, and I doubt Kerr is using DnD as basis for her books... [shrug]
But I think you see what I mean.

Hm, now that I think about it him being the creature that project the image of an astral dreadnought doesn't help us much.
Oh well

[zql]

The fact that Xykon reacts with surprise tells us that being in the Astral Plane is not usual to the monster's species, it doesn't matter if MitD itself have been in the Astral Plane or not.

But, well, negative results are still results. We do know thanks to Xykon that MitD's species is not related to the Astral Plane.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, because it is a projection. In Katerin Kerrs books (based on celtic mythology) the looks of the astral body is subject to will, among other things. Dark practitioners like to make their projections gruesome with severed heads as ornaments etc.
Then the astral bodies of Westlanders (elfs:)) appear as a flame on the astral plane. (That is a racial thing.)

I don't know if the DnD rules give any pertinent info on this, and I doubt Kerr is using DnD as basis for her books... [shrug]
But I think you see what I mean.

I do know now, although I had not heard of this Kerrs person before. However, unless there is a D&D fluff we can find that says the same thing, I'm not sure it can be used to promote his idea.

I just saw your edit, and I was thinking on the same lines of the silvery thread, so the fluff might exist somewhere (just not on the page I found). But if anything, like the idea of class levels or reincarnation, that only makes things worse: so what if his astral plane tranced aspect is this creature? We'd still need his species in the actual world, and adding the idea that in trance or asleep he becomes this creature doesn't help explain anything he has done in the material plane.


The fact that Xykon reacts with surprise tells us that being in the Astral Plane is not usual to the monster's species, it doesn't matter if MitD itself have been in the Astral Plane or not.

But, well, negative results are still results. We do know thanks to Xykon that MitD's species is not related to the Astral Plane.

Yes and no. Xykon is notoriously indifferent to subtlety. If MitD is not obviously from the outer planes, Xykon may not have given a thought to the possibility. Some creatures from the outer planes (like the Slaad) are strange, but not so strange they wouldn't look out of place next to some other weird material plane creatures (like the linnorm).

Grey Wolf

[Tryfan]

Yes and no. Xykon is notoriously indifferent to subtlety. If MitD is not obviously from the outer planes, Xykon may not have given a thought to the possibility. Some creatures from the outer planes (like the Slaad) are strange, but not so strange they wouldn't look out of place next to some other weird material plane creatures (like the linnorm).

Grey Wolf

Is it significant that Redcloak seems to be talking to Jirix while the planes conversation is taking place and so is not paying attention to this conversation?

Taken with the fact that when V escaped Redcloak was not around I'd say this mean that Xykon probably doesn't know exactly what the MitD is, even though Redcloak does.

Not that this helps us to find out out what MitD is though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is it significant that Redcloak seems to be talking to Jirix while the planes conversation is taking place and so is not paying attention to this conversation?

Taken with the fact that when V escaped Redcloak was not around I'd say this mean that Xykon probably doesn't know exactly what the MitD is, even though Redcloak does.

Not that this helps us to find out out what MitD is though.

We have long suspected in the thread that while Xykon and RC both know MitD's species name, only RC has a deep knowledge of him (including such things as powers, stats, etc.) while Xykon is happy with knowing he's strong, ugly, big eater and powerful which, in the end, is all Xykon cares about.

Grey Wolf

[CanusDivinus]

I feel that having been to the astral plane is another point of evidence in favor of being an atropal. Being an aborted fetal god, it would have formed on the astral before it was brought to the prime material plane by its "daddy".

[Quild]

I'm really surprised no one mentionned genetic memory for an explanation of why the MitD remembers the Astral Plane. I immediatly thought about this and a few searches shows that the concept of genetic memory exists in D&D.


The astral dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm) is also colossal, so it doesn't fit under the umbrella, has only one eye, and as far as I can tell has no way of explaining the escape.

Grey Wolf

We already know that we shouldn't focus on size :

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large faeries)
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)

Still, the MitD really seems medium sized to me, that makes a huge gap of sizes.

[Ancalagon]

I'd also agree that Xykon might know what the monster is but totally does not care about details or specifics. And I think only Redcloak is the one who would try to find out what he did not already know.

What I find interesting is that the Monster immediatly knows what the astral plane is and connects something with that knowledge.
If it somehow had moved there due to his (possibly existing) wish-ability, then it would know about a silvery, interesting place with weightlessness, but it'd not connect that with "Astral Plane" at once.

So whereever its knowledge comes from it must be deeper than "walked/wished in there by accident".

Also I am not sure if we can or should conclude it "does not remember to have been there". The monster in is very insecure in these regards and if Xykon said "Wuh? You have been there?" it would say "Maybe I was not there", even if it could remember it very clearly including the day and time when it was there, what it ate before, during and after the trip and every other detail as well.
It does seem like it cannot remember, but it should still be kept in mind it simply might show more of its insecurity or does not bother to actually think about it (as it seems to do a lot).

If I had to take a shot, I'd interpret this scene as indicating the Monster either comes from that plane or has been there in a very early stage of its development.

This of course sheds a totally different light on "his father who ate a lot and was much bigger". Before, it seemed like the father was a physical being. What if the father was some big astral.... thing? A god or some astral monster or... (no, I am not re-suggesting the Snarl at this stage).
So the father now can be astral, material or some dual-being. But without him being necessarily limited to the material plane... I do not know what this means, but it seems to open the scope of possibilties.

[ThePhantasm]

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large faeries)
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)

That's a possible explanation if MiTD is revealed, in the end, to be a colossal creature in medium sized art form. But we have no reason to assume that Rich wouldn't be faithful to the creature's size at this stage. We can only work with the data we have, and we don't have any data suggesting that Rich has "messed around" with the size of MitD.

There is a precedent for artistic flexibility regarding size but that doesn't make it the norm. In MitD's case where we are supposed to be able to guess what the monster is, I find it more likely that Rich would take extra care to make the creature something close to the proper size.

[Fish]

Regarding what Xykon and Redcloak know: can we be sure that they agree on what they know? If it's a creature that changes shape, appearance or aspect, or appear as something different to each viewer (as with Red Dwarf's pleasure GELF), they might not necessarily agree what they know.

Everyone in the audience reacted differently. We've been looking for a single set of form and stats that enables all those responses at the same time, assuming it's the same form. Xykon sees something powerful and evil; O-Chul sees a good man. Can they both be right?

[BlackestOfMages]

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large faeries)
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)

but even if we discount size (though from small/medium and collosal (50ft size) to medium is a bit more of a jump), there's still no way to explain the escape scene.

there's also the problem astral deadnoughts constantly project a 60ft antimagic cone from their eyes. that's not something any two mages want to have around them, ever, and we've seen both Xykon and Redcloak cast when MiTD has been looking right at them. Thus, may not work due to that ability.

I don't remeber correctly, but don't you touch the astral plane when teleporting? if so, it might mean that MiTD's managed to teleport himself somehow before, but then my memory on the astral planes foggy.

though from the strip we don't have enough to say wether MiTD just knows a little something about the plane, or has been there before, since he contradicts himself.

[Ellye]

The most important bit of information for me, in this newest comic, is Xykon's reaction.

:xykon: "When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?"

For me, this implies that the MitD is not a being native to the Astral Plane (or, if he is, Xykon isn't aware of that). Or else this would be a pretty silly question.

Xykon might not know exactly what MitD is, but he's an Epic Sorcerer who has been alive (uh, un-alive) for quite a long time. I believe by now he'd recognize the majority of the most obvious outsiders. So, if the MitD is from the Astral Plane, he might be one of those that don't really look like they are.

[Thagorn]

I think we should note that the MitD didn't react when Xykon first said "We need to make a pit stop on the Astral Plane first."

He doesn't make a comment until he looking through the Gate.

My opinion would be that he has innate Knowledge(Planes) or looking through the Gate triggered a memory that was covered for some reason.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm really surprised no one mentionned genetic memory for an explanation of why the MitD remembers the Astral Plane. I immediatly thought about this and a few searches shows that the concept of genetic memory exists in D&D.

What, precisely, does that tell us about MitD?

Edit: To clarify, does this genetic memory suggest one species or group thereof above others? Or could any creature fit because, at some point, all species where created in the Astral Plane by the gods and thus there is no particular reason why one would remember and not the others?


We already know that we shouldn't focus on size :

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large faeries)
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)

Still, the MitD really seems medium sized to me, that makes a huge gap of sizes.

Rich has never made a creature smaller than what it should be, only larger. While there could be an exception for MitD, it is unlikely and, if anything, he may have been made larger than he should be.

Grey Wolf

[BlackHumor]

I don't know if the new evidence is much of a clue to MitD's species. It's definitely a clue to its history; it seems to not only have been to the Astral Plane but to know what the Astral Plane is. But Xykon's question implied that MitD's species is at least not obviously native to the Astral Plane.

So it's been there, but it doesn't have to have been there. So it's definitely NOT something like an Astral Dreadnought, because (besides the teleport issue), if it was Xykon would not be at all surprised it had been to the Astral Plane. But it's substantially more likely to be something like a Slaad that definitely wouldn't be out of place visiting the Astral Plane.

[DaggerPen]

From a quick google search, it looks like the astral plane has few natives, especially of reasonable CR, but is the plane traveled through to teleport or to get to other planes.

Given that the MitD did not seem to know what other planes were, and only recognized the astral plane after the portal was opened, my bet is that he is not native to there, but that he has passed through it briefly at some point without really knowing what it was. Since he obviously did not go with O'Chul and V when they teleported, I doubt he saw it that way. I also doubt that he saw it by accidentally teleporting or planeshifting before, since he clearly had no idea he could do such a thing. I also doubt he saw it afterwards, because, if he had teleported or planeshifted, how could he have returned to the tower? It's possible that he has some type of astral projection ability, but I think it's more plausible that the MitD saw it only briefly when very, very young, too young to really remember properly, and that he is from another plane and was either brought into the rainforest by his father or transported by accident and adopted by another creature. This means little, though- he's probably from another plane, but that isn't guaranteed, and I don't think it really impacts much on our discussion.

[Holy_Knight]

I've actually read the entire thread. I might not understand the purpose of the category (I thought it was the category for the ones most likely to fit), but those that I named above and Snorlax (which just fits so perfectly that I hope one day someone violates some law to find out if there's been any contact between oots and whoeever owns Pokemon around 2004) are the only ones I see of having any shot at fitting.
A lot of people say this, but I've never understood how it's supposed to account for the circus scene or Xykon's reaction. As I've pointed out before, Snorlax is neither ugly nor very unusual looking, and is similar enough to other creatures that the (presumable) wizard in the audience's comment that he's "never seen anything like it" doesn't fit with the Snorlax's appearance. Even aside from copyright issues, unless there's some explanation for these problems we can safely discard the Snorlax from consideration.


Regarding what Xykon and Redcloak know: can we be sure that they agree on what they know? If it's a creature that changes shape, appearance or aspect, or appear as something different to each viewer (as with Red Dwarf's pleasure GELF), they might not necessarily agree what they know.

Everyone in the audience reacted differently. We've been looking for a single set of form and stats that enables all those responses at the same time, assuming it's the same form. Xykon sees something powerful and evil; O-Chul sees a good man. Can they both be right?
This idea has always seemed very promising to me, too, especially the bolded line. That would explain quite a bit, including not only what you've mentioned already, but also:

--Why the MiTD says it's hard to be looked at by many people at once (trying to appear as multiple things at the same time).

--Why the audience members' reactions include all of 'feeling funny' by looking at it, vomiting, or seeing it as 'beautiful'. These could all be explained by a shifting form rather than ugliness--and in fact, only Xykon ever actually says that the MiTD is ugly.

--Why Redcloak, unlike the SBGHs, gives no indication of being surprised that the MiTD could talk. They saw what they wanted to see or how the MiTD appeared to them--a rare, valuable creature to bring them fame and fortune--whereas Redcloak saw a creature with appearance-altering abilities and correctly identified it. This would also explain why they just assumed such a powerful creature could be contained by a simple box, while Redcloak by contrast expressed surprise that the MiTD didn't just kill his captors and escape. We know that the MiTD's personality explains why he doesn't do that, but the SBGHs would have had no reason to just assume that he wouldn't if they had really understood how powerful he is.


Changing topics for a second, while it probably doesn't help much in terms of identification, I think we can presume that the MiTD's alignment is not Evil. Not just because his personality would support that now, but because in terms of game mechanics, it's extremely likely that O-Chul used Detect Evil on him at some point.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

only Xykon ever actually says that the MiTD is ugly.

Not true. A member of the audience describes him as "horrible".


Why Redcloak, unlike the SBGHs, gives no indication of being surprised that the MiTD could talk.

We have been through this. He could have been told they would talk to him after the show off-panel, and by the time they got there he'd have been over his surprise.

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

We have been through this. He could have been told they would talk to him after the show off-panel, and by the time they got there he'd have been over his surprise.

Grey Wolf

He could have, but we have no direct evidence that the scene played out like that. It could have very well gone just as how Holy Knight said.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He could have, but we have no direct evidence that the scene played out like that. It could have very well gone just as how Holy Knight said.

Yes, could, which means it is not in direct support of his idea, which requires RC to not be surprised (since what he sees isn't surprising it can talk). But he might have been surprised, and have a good poker face. He could have been told in advance of the creature that talked to them, and just be mildly puzzled when he saw it but, having no reason to distrust his nephews' word, just went with it. No, it is a weak argument, as it was the first time Holy Knight offered it.

Edit: To be clear, this is my biggest problem with his argument - the rest is quite good, that's why I do not comment on it. I can accept that RC and the Hunters did indeed see different creatures, just not based on RC's lack of surprise at the sight of him.

Since I'm at it, I have to add: MitD's exhibition was touted as this "IT" no-one can identify - and there is a good number of people in attendance. And yet if everyone sees something different, whether or not it is their worst nightmare (the most usual thing to see, shared by both HP Boggarts and Dream Larva both), most people would look at it and recognise it, either because they fear real things or because they have limited imaginations to produce new creatures on demand. And yet the show survives, without hundreds of complaints of "that was just a snake/spider/werewolf/etc." No - if people each see what they want/fear, the show would not have worked as it did (notice the immediate complaints to the following act, the "bearded lady" that turns out to be a female dwarf).

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

It just occured to me that the cirkus scene can be explained by individual reactions on something they never seen before, because the object does not belong to their game system!
In other words something totally alien. It would be like plastic LEGO men started to turn up in our streets. Being alive and sentient.
An impossibility, but yet there in front of our eyes.

Problem is that it would haved affected the Goblins too, in the same way.

EDit: this was support for something like the snorlax. I have no idea what it is , except that it is pokemon, and not DnD.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It just occured to me that the cirkus scene can be explained by individual reactions on something they never seen before, because the object does not belong to their game system!
In other words something totally alien. It would be like plastic LEGO men started to turn up in our streets. Being alive and sentient.
An impossibility, but yet there in front of our eyes.

Problem is that it would haved affected the Goblins too, in the same way.

EDit: this was support for something like the snorlax. I have no idea what it is , except that it is pokemon, and not DnD.

This has been suggested several times before. The biggest problem is that even things from outside OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.htmlr) get OotS-ized when they come into the system. And I might as well add: I don't think anyone would vomit at the sight of a lego being able to talk and move about.

Grey Wolf

[IronWilliam]

What about a shadowcloak elder? (Lords of Madness PG 143) They have "shadow blend" which gives them total concealment in any condition except full daylight, they can cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer, and a "moan" ability that can cause fear, nausea, and stupor. It only has STR 26, but that's it's highest stat. The usual conditions for it needing to be younger apply, but it's only huge normally so a young one could be medium. They can speak, but they normally only speak under common, so one could surprise the Big Game Hunters. And, of course, we could chuck whatever templates we want on it to make it fit better.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What about a shadowcloak elder? (Lords of Madness PG 143) They have "shadow blend" which gives them total concealment in any condition except full daylight, they can cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer, and a "moan" ability that can cause fear, nausea, and stupor. It only has STR 26, but that's it's highest stat. The usual conditions for it needing to be younger apply, but it's only huge normally so a young one could be medium. They can speak, but they normally only speak under common, so one could surprise the Big Game Hunters. And, of course, we could chuck whatever templates we want on it to make it fit better.

MitD doesn't need a shadow blend power: why would he need to "stay in the shadows" if it can conceal anywhere? 26 is indeed not quite enough, and if he needs to be smaller than usual it is even more of a problem. The SBGH where surprised he could talk at all, not just in common. Also, a 7th level sorcerer can't cast anything like the Escape, since they can only cast up to 3rd level spells, and even the basic teleport is 5th level.

Grey Wolf

[IronWilliam]

MitD doesn't need a shadow blend power: why would he need to "stay in the shadows" if it can conceal anywhere?

Grey Wolf

But he DOES need to stay in the shadows, that's why red cloak makes him use the umbrella while above ground. The shadowcloak's shadow blend only does not function in actual daylight, thus explaining why he didn't need to hide when in the tower retrieving serini's journal. He could have more powerful sorcer abilities then normal for his race, or just give him any one of the many templates that let's him teleport people, and a template could increase his strength. They can also plane shift 1/day to or from the plane of shadow, which could explain how he had been to the astral plane before. (if he has) you make several good points that I agree with, including his low strength score, but I think overall it fits the bill as well as a dread linoworm, which has two heads and is immune to mind effecting abilities.
Also, the big game hunters might not be experienced enough to know that shadowcloaks spoke under common and assumed they didn't talk. This could explain why red cloak was unsuprised.

[Holy_Knight]

Not true. A member of the audience describes him as "horrible".
Actually, this isn't quite correct. First, "horrible" is not the same as "ugly". While the former could be used to connote the latter, it isn't necessarily indicative of such. Secondly, the audience member's phrase is "It's horrible!", which could mean that the shifting is horrible, not that the monster has a (stable) form which was ugly to behold.



We have been through this. He could have been told they would talk to him after the show off-panel, and by the time they got there he'd have been over his surprise.


Yes, could, which means it is not in direct support of his idea, which requires RC to not be surprised (since what he sees isn't surprising it can talk). But he might have been surprised, and have a good poker face. He could have been told in advance of the creature that talked to them, and just be mildly puzzled when he saw it but, having no reason to distrust his nephews' word, just went with it. No, it is a weak argument, as it was the first time Holy Knight offered it.
Yes, we have been through this, but with respect, Grey Wolf, it is your explanation that is weak. Here's an analogy. You take your nephews to the zoo, and they tell you about their favorite exhibit--a bird that can talk like people! You're glad the kids are excited, but don't think that much about it--after all, you're well aware of talking birds. You sit in an auditorium waiting for the demonstration to begin, fully believing your nephews that you're about to see a talking bird. Finally, the zookeeper raises a curtain and reveals...

...a bald eagle. Which convincingly mimics human speech.

Are you surprised? Of course you are. You believed your nephews, and you expected to see a talking bird, but what you saw was not a parrot or other species known to have such capabilities, but one which has never been known to do so. You might have even--off-panel--asked your nephews before it spoke, "Wait, this is the bird you were talking about?", and they said "Yeah!", so you were warned in advance for what you were about to see. You'd still be surprised when it did talk, because a bald eagle shouldn't be able to do that. By the time you got up to the eagle to talk to it with your nephews, you would not have gotten over your surprise--you'd still find it strange and comment-worthy that it could talk, despite having had time to process that it had happened.

Now, it's true, Redcloak could have just been putting on a "poker face" to conceal his surprise, but at the very least, we have no particular reason to assume that that's what he was doing. That "could" is no more likely than the alternative, and is probably less so given Redcloak's personality. Redcloak is sufficiently curious to ask the MiTD why he doesn't just kill his captors and leave. Why not also ask him how it is that he can talk, given that that behavior also (by hypothesis) is contrary to what he would have expected? Both are fairly relevant questions given Redcloak's motivations, but he doesn't ask the second one. Why not comment on it at all, even in passing, especially given Redcloak's declaraton that "I know what you are"? That all makes perfect sense if in fact Redcloak was never surprised by the talking to begin with. On the other hand, the other interpretation means we have to assume either that he is reacting unnaturally (like just accepting that a bald eagle can talk without thinking much more about it) or, for unexplained reasons, simply not questioning it and concealing his surprise.



Edit: To be clear, this is my biggest problem with his argument - the rest is quite good, that's why I do not comment on it. I can accept that RC and the Hunters did indeed see different creatures, just not based on RC's lack of surprise at the sight of him.
Thank you, and however the other part comes down, I think that is a fruitful line of speculation.



Since I'm at it, I have to add: MitD's exhibition was touted as this "IT" no-one can identify - and there is a good number of people in attendance. And yet if everyone sees something different, whether or not it is their worst nightmare (the most usual thing to see, shared by both HP Boggarts and Dream Larva both), most people would look at it and recognise it, either because they fear real things or because they have limited imaginations to produce new creatures on demand. And yet the show survives, without hundreds of complaints of "that was just a snake/spider/werewolf/etc." No - if people each see what they want/fear, the show would not have worked as it did (notice the immediate complaints to the following act, the "bearded lady" that turns out to be a female dwarf).

Grey Wolf
I don't know, I think what you say here requires some assumptions that we don't necessarily need to make. Most significantly, if he was constantly trying to shift to appear as all of their fears/desires/whatever at once, he might seem unrecognizable even if the things he was attempting to appear as were recognizable themselves.

[TheHarshax]

This has probably been suggested before. I would post more, but I'm late for dinner. I look forward to having my theory shot full of holes by the time I get back.

I was think the MitD is some kind of Illithid thing: some kind of twist on a brain golem and a an Elder Brain. While Rich has said that we could guess what the MitD is, has he ever said, the the creature has actually be statted out? The 2E supplement, the Illithiad, suggests a lot of interesting Illithid variants. There's also some snippet about what happens to illithid tadpoles when they grow to large, or if the spawning pool is somehow damaged. But I can't find it.

Here's what jives with the MitD being some kind of illithid spinoff:
1. He has to stay in the dark.
2. Xykon is surpised that the MitD has been to the Astral plane, where Githyanki roam in greater numbers.
3. It is child-like, suggesting that the the MitD might be one of these tadpoles that grew into an Illithid without the benefit of his people to support him.
4. It would explain why he would want to eat sentient beings.
5. Being a 2e Illithid can account for any arrangement of powers.
6. The MitD can be highly resistant to suggestion, or mind affecting powers.
7. Illithid are known for communicating telepathically, not via speech.

[Qwertystop]

I say it's:
:redcloak:: ("I know it's very dangerous, and my nephews and niece are here. I won't question it speaking.")
:redcloak: Hi!

[Fish]

This idea has always seemed very promising to me, too, especially the bolded line. That would explain quite a bit, including not only what you've mentioned already, but also...
Xykon sees the MitD as powerful and ugly. Redcloak sees the MitD as powerful enough to escape his captors, yet willing to remain a prisoner. O-Chul sees the MitD as a good man.

Is it possible that each of those people sees in the MitD ... something about himself?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But he DOES need to stay in the shadows, that's why red cloak makes him use the umbrella while above ground.

He got the order to stay in the shadows in the throne room of Dorukan's Dungeon, which was in the deepest part of the mountain, with nary a window in sight. Why would he need to stay in the magical darkness cast in a corner of the room, if he could just self-shadow. That was, and still is, my question.


He could have more powerful sorcer abilities then normal for his race,

Or he could be a superhero. Except either would be something Rich invented


just give him any one of the many templates that let's him teleport people, and a template could increase his strength.

Templates are a terrible explanation for anything, particularly when involved in hand-waves to make poor fit creatures into less-poor fits. For the record, as far as anyone has been able to uncover in this thread, there are no templates that give wish-like abilities.


I think overall it fits the bill as well as a dread linoworm, which has two heads and is immune to mind effecting abilities.

Irrelevant. First, that is a ridiculously biased opinion. For seconds, so what? If you are suggesting it should be a forerunner, it does not fit the requirements.


Also, the big game hunters might not be experienced enough to know that shadowcloaks spoke under common and assumed they didn't talk. This could explain why red cloak was unsuprised.

SBGH are stereotypically good at recognising what they hunt.


Actually, this isn't quite correct. First, "horrible" is not the same as "ugly". While the former could be used to connote the latter, it isn't necessarily indicative of such.

hor·ri·ble   [hawr-uh-buhl, hor-]
adjective
1. causing or tending to cause horror; shockingly dreadful: a horrible sight.
2. extremely unpleasant; deplorable; disgusting: horrible living conditions.

It is always indicative of ugliness in the extreme. While you can argue that it was the shifting that he was commenting on, you cannot worm out of admitting that two people, not just Xykon, have commented on how disgusting MitD looks. I would also add the vomiting to it, by the way.


Secondly, the audience member's phrase is "It's horrible!", which could mean that the shifting is horrible, not that the monster has a (stable) form which was ugly to behold.

If the monster shifts, then his appearance at some times is ugly. Now, if you want to stand by your guns and insist that you were specifically talking about the characterisation of "ugly" rather than any other synonym, then sure, whatever. People vomit at the sight of MitD, regardless of semantics.


Here's an analogy. <snip> Are you surprised?

No, I would not be surprised - at least not in any way that you could tell. I'm sorry if my passive looks when I drag children around run contrary to your expectations, but I'm not one to point and gawk and makes "o" shapes with my mouth. When the unexpected happens I just consider it calmly and react in consequence. And certainly not RC, who can watch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) people be devoured without showing the slightest hint of emotion. A talking <whatever MitD is> wouldn't really shock him, I don't think.


Redcloak is sufficiently curious to ask the MiTD why he doesn't just kill his captors and leave. Why not also ask him how it is that he can talk, given that that behavior also (by hypothesis) is contrary to what he would have expected? Both are fairly relevant questions given Redcloak's motivations, but he doesn't ask the second one.

Excuse me, but I disagree completely. RC's not motivated by curiosity in this scene. He is not enquiring MitD about his nature or studying him. He is trying to recruit him for the protection of the goblin village. He already knows he can talk - asking him about it is not going to further the goal of springing him out. Asking him why he doesn't escape when he can - thereby establishing his propensity to be a guard; i.e. making sure that when he springs him, he won't leave a week later - is far more relevant to RC's motivations. RC doesn't satisfy his natural curiosity by asking questions, he does so by reading books, a fact that has been established over and over. But he cannot read on MitD's loyalty by reading a book, only by asking, and when he does, he discovers he can have him as pet just by asking.


Most significantly, if he was constantly trying to shift to appear as all of their fears/desires/whatever at once, he might seem unrecognizable even if the things he was attempting to appear as were recognizable themselves.

That will depend on the creature, won't it? An HP boggart, for example, clearly changes into each shape in turn, while a dream larva can be all the things at once, which each person seeing what they fear most, and the dream larva actually turning into those things, for real, at the same time (it doesn't need to make sense, it's D&D). So, and this brings us pretty much to where we ended last time, IIRC, if there is a shapechanger that behaves in that manner somewhere, by all means bring it forth. But it has to be a very specific shape changer + mind reader + everything else, and we simply don't have anything of the sort. It is not just "a creature that turns into something you don't recognise".


Here's what jives with the MitD being some kind of illithid spinoff:
1. He has to stay in the dark.
2. Xykon is surpised that the MitD has been to the Astral plane, where Githyanki roam in greater numbers.
3. It is child-like, suggesting that the the MitD might be one of these tadpoles that grew into an Illithid without the benefit of his people to support him.
4. It would explain why he would want to eat sentient beings.
5. Being a 2e Illithid can account for any arrangement of powers.
6. The MitD can be highly resistant to suggestion, or mind affecting powers.
7. Illithid are known for communicating telepathically, not via speech.

1- since there are illithids in the 3rd edition, whatever they were in 2nd is irrelevant - all creatures get updated to the newer edition of 3.0 and 3.5 as it comes out, as we saw on the first strip, and those that didn't have an official conversion ended up in Dorukan's dungeon.

2- MitD is not "highly resistant to suggestion, or mind affecting powers.", so no idea why you think that's a plus.

3- the usuals: not enough strength, no explanation for the escape*.

Grey Wolf

*I think they only have plane shift; but they are product identity, so I can't find their stats in a quick google search.

[silversaraph]

A lot of people say this, but I've never understood how it's supposed to account for the circus scene or Xykon's reaction. As I've pointed out before, Snorlax is neither ugly nor very unusual looking, and is similar enough to other creatures that the (presumable) wizard in the audience's comment that he's "never seen anything like it" doesn't fit with the Snorlax's appearance. Even aside from copyright issues, unless there's some explanation for these problems we can safely discard the Snorlax from consideration.



Back to Snorlax...

To me, he IS very strange looking, but that's subjective. So on a different way of looking at it, he also knows dream-eater and nightmare, which can account for all reactions if one person's nightmare is another person's fascination or disgust. Use your imagination, there are plenty of good examples.

Regardless, you can't excuse it for something like that... the biggest problem is the copyright, no question about that, everything else fits too well.

Edit: Can Snorlax be listed as a forerunner, but with the obvious con bolded or whatever? It's an extremely big con, but with the other forerunners as they are, I think it still fits better than the rest.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Back to Snorlax...

To me, he IS very strange looking, but that's subjective. So on a different way of looking at it, he also knows dream-eater and nightmare, which can account for all reactions if one person's nightmare is another person's fascination or disgust. Use your imagination, there are plenty of good examples.

Regardless, you can't excuse it for something like that... the biggest problem is the copyright, no question about that, everything else fits too well.

Agreed. Back in the first thread, there were several people who hated the sight of any pokemon. Now, even if he does have dream-eater or nightmare, whatever those do, that would be an action on his part (I understand they are pokemon powers, right?), so they can't fit the circus scene where he does nothing. But it could be as simple as "some people just don't like pokemons, while others think they are beautiful", or as complex as "that's a subtle dig at the pokemon episode that caused seizures".

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

Xykon sees the MitD as powerful and ugly. Redcloak sees the MitD as powerful enough to escape his captors, yet willing to remain a prisoner. O-Chul sees the MitD as a good man.

Is it possible that each of those people sees in the MitD ... something about himself?

I never saw that view before, but it stops when you see the SBGHs and the circus.

The SBGHs see something that shouldn't be able to talk. People at the circus see unspecified strangeness.

[GreenSerpent]

For some reason I have the odd feeling he could be some sort of templated Fihyr (Monster Manual 2). There are a few discrepancies - ok, quite a few. But they do have yellow eyes, as for the appearance... Cthulu might be worried. Tentacles. Lots of them.

Will post up a number of pros and cons later.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For some reason I have the odd feeling he could be some sort of templated Fihyr (Monster Manual 2). There are a few discrepancies - ok, quite a few. But they do have yellow eyes, as for the appearance... Cthulu might be worried. Tentacles. Lots of them.

Will post up a number of pros and cons later.

Going from this info (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822) on the greater Fihyr: too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.

GW

[Savannah]

Xykon sees the MitD as powerful and ugly. Redcloak sees the MitD as powerful enough to escape his captors, yet willing to remain a prisoner. O-Chul sees the MitD as a good man.

Is it possible that each of those people sees in the MitD ... something about himself?

....I don't know of any monster than can do this, but I really, really hope it turns out to be the case.


3- the usuals: not enough strength, no explanation for the escape*.

*I think they only have plane shift; but they are product identity, so I can't find their stats in a quick google search.

Base mind flayers have at-will plane shift. The Monster Manual also has a mind flayer with sorcerer levels, so there is precedent for them being casters. (Technically, their powers are psionics, but they're one of the monsters where their psionics are just normal magic if your campaign doesn't use psionics, which would allow Redcloak to still be unsure if the world was using psionics.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Base mind flayers have at-will plane shift. The Monster Manual also has a mind flayer with sorcerer levels, so there is precedent for them being casters. (Technically, their powers are psionics, but they're one of the monsters where their psionics are just normal magic if your campaign doesn't use psionics, which would allow Redcloak to still be unsure if the world was using psionics.)

Yeah, I was expecting something like that. They're still not know for being able to punch horses through walls, though. Rather weak-limbed, from what I remember from the novels, in fact.

GW

[Savannah]

Str 12. Better than your average human, but only just barely.

[Alienist]

He got the order to stay in the shadows in the throne room of Dorukan's Dungeon, which was in the deepest part of the mountain, with nary a window in sight. Why would he need to stay in the magical darkness cast in a corner of the room, if he could just self-shadow. That was, and still is, my question.


Excellent question, but even more than that we can see from previous comics, and reinforced by todays comic that he actually likes the light and shiny stuff.

My previous favourite: Prismatic Dragon has Gate, but Elder Titan has plane shift (as well as greater teleport). Elder Titan also has this:



Spells
An elder titan can use arcane spells as a 29th-level wizard or divine spells as a 29th-level cleric, from the cleric list and from the Knowledge and Magic domains. He will also possess the knowledge of at least three epic spells and the means by which to develop them, though he may not have done so himself.

Change Shape (Su)
An elder titan can assume the form of any Small to Huge humanoid or giant. The titan retains its oversized weapon special attack regardless of form.


Both of which look like convincing explanations for some of the things people have been struggling with: (a) how does the MitD know about the epic ritual which is both arcane and divine and (b) the size of the MitD - why is it so small in proportion to its strength and appetite?

[Holy_Knight]

hor·ri·ble   [hawr-uh-buhl, hor-]
adjective
1. causing or tending to cause horror; shockingly dreadful: a horrible sight.
2. extremely unpleasant; deplorable; disgusting: horrible living conditions.

It is always indicative of ugliness in the extreme. While you can argue that it was the shifting that he was commenting on, you cannot worm out of admitting that two people, not just Xykon, have commented on how disgusting MitD looks. I would also add the vomiting to it, by the way.
No, it really isn't. Neither denotationally nor in terms of how people colloquially use the word. Neither "dreadful" nor "horror-causing" are synonymous with "ugly". It can be used to mean that, but to say that it always is is just false.

Furthermore, you seem to have missed part of my point about the vomiting (and the little girl feeling funny). Lots of things, including visual stimuli, can cause people to feel nauseated and vomit, and not due to the stimulus in question being ugly. Something which shifts and changes in a certain way, even in discernible patterns, or the appearance of certain types of motion, can produce those reactions, not because of being ugly but because of their disorienting effects. Both of those reactions could then be explained in that way, without any need for the MiTD to actually be ugly--and, as I've said, neither of them actually use that word.

On that note...



People vomit at the sight of MitD, regardless of semantics.
It's not semantics. It's an alternative explanation, which you haven't ruled out.



No, I would not be surprised - at least not in any way that you could tell. I'm sorry if my passive looks when I drag children around run contrary to your expectations, but I'm not one to point and gawk and makes "o" shapes with my mouth.
And that's not the point. Whether you gawked, pointed, or did any other such nonsense is irrelevant to whether you were in fact surprised, which you would have been, because your expectations would have been subverted. Rather dramatically, in fact. Whether an outside observer would have been able to see visible signs of that makes no difference. (With one exception, as we'll see below.)



When the unexpected happens I just consider it calmly and react in consequence. And certainly not RC, who can watch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) people be devoured without showing the slightest hint of emotion. A talking <whatever MitD is> wouldn't really shock him, I don't think.
Again, it's not about being shocked, or visibly shocked, or what have you. The question is whether Redcloak would have expected the MiTD to talk or not, and what he would do with that information. The one visible sign that would be relevant is whether he would inquire into why the MiTD was talking, if in fact he would have expected him not to.



Excuse me, but I disagree completely. RC's not motivated by curiosity in this scene. He is not enquiring MitD about his nature or studying him. He is trying to recruit him for the protection of the goblin village. He already knows he can talk - asking him about it is not going to further the goal of springing him out. Asking him why he doesn't escape when he can - thereby establishing his propensity to be a guard; i.e. making sure that when he springs him, he won't leave a week later - is far more relevant to RC's motivations. RC doesn't satisfy his natural curiosity by asking questions, he does so by reading books, a fact that has been established over and over. But he cannot read on MitD's loyalty by reading a book, only by asking, and when he does, he discovers he can have him as pet just by asking.
When someone who is well-studied and booksmart discovers something in the real world that defies what he's come to understand from his book studies, he doesn't just say "oh well" or take it at face value. He wants to know what has caused the discrepancy. By asking why the MiTD isn't acting like he would have expected, of course he's enquiring about his nature and studying him. He's not motivated by curiosity simply for its own sake, no, but he would be curious about the monster as part of checking its suitability to be employed in helping Redcloak achieve the ends of the Plan. That doesn't just mean in terms of loyalty or springing him out, it means making sure Redcloak knows what he's dealing with and can be reasonably confident about what to expect from the monster. Something like "Is this creature really what I believe it to be?" or, at the very least, "does this creature have some sort of unique qualities that make it noticeably different from the rest of its species, and why?" is a pretty basic part of that endeavor. Thus, like I said, Redcloak has a pretty good motivation to wonder and inquire about why it is talking, unless he would have expected it to talk in the first place.



That will depend on the creature, won't it? An HP boggart, for example, clearly changes into each shape in turn, while a dream larva can be all the things at once, which each person seeing what they fear most, and the dream larva actually turning into those things, for real, at the same time (it doesn't need to make sense, it's D&D). So, and this brings us pretty much to where we ended last time, IIRC, if there is a shapechanger that behaves in that manner somewhere, by all means bring it forth. But it has to be a very specific shape changer + mind reader + everything else, and we simply don't have anything of the sort. It is not just "a creature that turns into something you don't recognise".
I never said it was "a ceature that turns into something you don't recognize". Also, mind-reading doesn't seem necessary to me, at least in the traditional sense. The important thing is that the appearance-shifting would go a long way toward explaining and synthesizing a lot of the information we do have, while also offering alternative meanings of some of what we take to be clues--which I see as one of the most important functions of this thread. We're trying to base guesses upon the evidence that we have, but different plausible interpretations of that evidence are going to be key in doing so, lest we inadvertently lead ourselves astray in what we rule out or promote. So, we're only back to where we ended before in the sense that I still find your response to the surprise idea unsatisfactory. I do have some memory of creatures like that, but I also hope that other people will think of suggestions and candidates based on that idea too, just like the rest of the speculation we're all engaged in.

--HK

[Savannah]

Having casting as a 29th level wizard and cleric does cause major problems with the scene where MitD can't help Redcloak raise zombies.

And for the horrible/ugly debate, I've gotta say I'm with Holy Knight. Heck, if we're sharing personal stories of reactions, I can say I've never seen something ugly enough to make me want to vomit, but I've certainly been nauseated by weird swirling visual stimuli. ....come to think of it, smells are far more likely to make me want to vomit than sights. Maybe that odor that MitD always forgets to apologize for is what's making people sick, not the sight of him.

[Crusher]

Thinking about Holy Knight's comments, and I need to go check SoD to confirm this, but now that I think about it RC's reaction upon first seeing the MitD at the circus is a little off.

Because the bird analogy isn't quite apt. MitD is some kind of unrecognizeable epic-level beast, right? If that's so, it raises two questions. First, how on earth were the goblin kids able to accurately tell RC what it actually was? Telling RC that its a talking bird is one thing. But if its a Sharktopus that happens to speak common, the fact that they even know what the heck a sharktopus is would be the big surprise and the fact that it speaks common is surprising but kinda on a different level.

Second, if the kids didn't really know what it was but kinda thought it was one thing (a talking fish or whatever) and excitedly told RC that it was, for example, this funny looking talking fish, that takes care of how they'd recognize it in the first place. But then, RC would come into the circus scene expecting to see a talking fish (maybe like CR3 or something, tops, and mostly interesting as a curiosity) and actually sees a talking sharktopus which he knows is an epic monster, then his reaction is going to be "yeah, its surprising it can talk, but the bigger surprise is that my idiot brother is taking his family to repeatedly see something that could casually destroy the whole town". In time he learns that MitD just doesn't have the personality for wanton destruction, but he didn't know that on first viewing.

If RCs brother was able to recognize it (he was a medium level adventurer but not overly inquisitive so it could go either way), then he might have been able to give RC the more nuanced explanation, but that still raises the question of why HE didn't grab his family and flee the first time they saw it.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe the MitD talked during his act, so the goblin kids don't need to be part of the equation.

[whitelaughter]

Obviously the latest titbit concerning the Astral plane will get people speculating, but going back a bit:

Do Redcloak and Xkyon know that MitD can teleport people?

It seems unlikely - if they did, why hike through the wilderness after the fiasco at the Tower? Why didn't they consider that MitD was responsible for the escape?
If they know what he is, but don't know that he can teleport, is that a clue to what he is? (ie, teleport is rare/templated/requires a minimum age)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I never said it was "a ceature that turns into something you don't recognize".

Err... yes, you did, when you suggested that in the circus' public didn't recognise it because it was shifting into multiple things at once. Which made me think of a problem with what you are suggesting: on one hand, you suggest that what the SBGH saw and what RC saw were different, SBGH!MitD looking like a non-talking creature and RC!MitD looking like a talking one - but then you were forced to add that in the circus, MitD is shifting to a mess of things because it can't decide which shape to adopt (to get around the "Wouldn't be much of an act if it appears like a great big spider").

I still think it is a very big risk for the circus to have something like that as the act; while we saw a full house, there must be times when small groups come, groups that all share similar fears (fears do tend to run in families, particularly if they are all thinking of the same traumatic experience like the village's fire that killed half their population). Sooner or later, people are going to complain, like they did with the bearded lady, that MitD isn't unrecognisable, it's just a <common fear>. For the circus act to work, MitD must NOT be recognisable and statistics alone will eventually turn a shape-shifter into something that at least a few people in the audience can recognise. Not to mention that the circus people itself are bound to look at MitD individually from time to time and see something recognisable.


Also, mind-reading doesn't seem necessary to me, at least in the traditional sense.

No, it doesn't to you because you are content with hand-waving away the details. You have yet to define the nature of the shift, which is why I have to keep going in circles around it: does Shifter!MitD turn into people's fears? People's vomit triggers? People's beautiful-but-disgusting ones? And whatever he turns into, how does he know how to tailor it to the individual? I assume that requires a form of telepathy, not the traditional one, but something.


The important thing is that the appearance-shifting would go a long way toward explaining and synthesizing a lot of the information we do have, while also offering alternative meanings of some of what we take to be clues--which I see as one of the most important functions of this thread.

No, it really wouldn't. You've constructed this scenario to explain why the SBGH were surprised to find a talking animal and RC wasn't. Where I interpret that as a very clear lampshade, which by definition is an author's way of pointing out a plothole so he can move on without explaining it and without ever having to worry about it again, you need to posit this strange shifting creature with variable rules and undefined abilities that matches nothing I've ever heard of. Yes, shifting would account for the reactions in the circus - it is how the protean explains it, after all - but it is by no means a requirement. You cannot use this to discard any ugly creature, because extremely ugly creatures can cause vomit. And you cannot use RC's lack of surprise to discard anything because for all you say, I remain utterly unconvinced that he must display the emotion. There are reasons to think he wasn't particularly surprised, and there are reasons to think he might have been surprised, and just not been shown in the comic. For example: he watches MitD stand there, shifting or whatever else he does, curtains close and bearded lady comes out. Uninterested, he turns to his older nephew and asks, "and that thing talks?" "Sure. In fact, once you get him started the problem is making him shut up." "Huh, weird. OK". At that point RC has seen the creature, and has an adult's word on it, and sincerely, I don't see why he'd need to be "oh, gosh, I'm so surprised".


Maybe the MitD talked during his act, so the goblin kids don't need to be part of the equation.

The act is specifically described as one where he does "nothing but stand there."

Edit:
Obviously the latest titbit concerning the Astral plane will get people speculating, but going back a bit:

Do Redcloak and Xkyon know that MitD can teleport people?

It seems unlikely - if they did, why hike through the wilderness after the fiasco at the Tower? Why didn't they consider that MitD was responsible for the escape?
If they know what he is, but don't know that he can teleport, is that a clue to what he is? (ie, teleport is rare/templated/requires a minimum age)

Xykon doesn't, RC likely does, but RC wasn't present at the Escape, and Xykon seemed convinced that "the elf" had teleported away (not unlikely, being a spellcaster, and there are plenty of spells that can trigger an escape like that) and besides, Xykon was far more interested in recovering the phylactery than tracking down an incompetent spellcaster (remember he gets a lot of do-gooder adventurers attacking him for no reason other than he is a Lich bent on world domination) and a prisoner that was stopping him from pursuing his actual goal (Xykon complained several times about it).

Grey Wolf

[Dark Matter]

I'm really surprised no one mentionned genetic memory for an explanation of why the MitD remembers the Astral Plane. I immediatly thought about this and a few searches shows that the concept of genetic memory exists in D&D.Don't some of our potentials reproduce by budding?

[FlawedParadigm]

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madwand
So.. should we find the old edition of Monstrous Compendium and start search for per-3.x edition mosters? Haley father is "1st edition rogue" so maybe MitD can be 2ed moster?

He might be, but he'd need a reason not to be trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with every other 2nd ed monster.

Grey Wolf

That might be why SBGH are surprised to see MitD "in this part of the world" - they expect him to be with all the other outdated monsters.

[Spacewolf]

Don't some of our potentials reproduce by budding?

well Aboleths have genetic memory im not sure if its been suggested though, would have to be a huge Aboleth mage to have a challenge rating worthy though.

Unless its been waiting so long that its effectiveness has been reduced to reasonable challenge rather than TPK machine

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Don't some of our potentials reproduce by budding?

Yes, several, I would imagine. The carbosylicate amorph sprints to mind, of course, and the protean might, for all I know. We have several plant-like beings too that might reproduce by literally budding. The Slaads have a weird reproduction system that involves cocooning. I'm sure an exhaustive read through all proposed ideas will bring up a few others, as well. But that's not the same as assuming all those have genetic memory - only the carb-amorph has it, to the best of my knowledge. That's why I enquired on the fluff - I'm not sure how it would help, but I know very little of the concept.


That might be why SBGH are surprised to see MitD "in this part of the world" - they expect him to be with all the other outdated monsters.

Fair enough, that could be it. Not sure the SBGH would know about Dorukan's dungeon, though, and it is strongly implied they have seen others like MitD elsewhere.

Still, I should add that the last time we checked a few 2nd ed creatures, there was a sizable gap in power. By this I mean that creatures that were ported gained stats (so a creature that used to have 20 strength now might have 26 or more), but we know that creatures not updated retain their old stats, even if that makes them weaker and more vulnerable in the "modern" world (don't have a will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html), for example). I'm not saying it can't be, just that any 2nd ed creature is going to have the deck stacked against them from the start.


-------ooOoo-------

@Holy Knight's Shifter Argument

I keep thinking about this, and I get the faint suspicion we are talking past each other, so I'm going to go ahead and explain what I understand your position to be, and remove all the side arguments that have been cropping up that are obscuring the issue (for example, whether or not "horrible" means "ugly" in the context of the circus scene is neither here nor there).

I've put comments in square brackets on the points I'm currently confused about.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that:
1) MitD must/might [delete whichever is inappropriate] a shifter
2) The shifter shows itself differently to the SBGH and RC. The SBGH see a valuable creature that shouldn't talk. RC recognises it as a shifter.
3) The shifter is appropriate for the circus because with large crowds it shifts uncontrollably, causing the reactions of disgust [how do you explain the beautiful comment?]
4) The shifter changes depending on some characteristic of the watcher [which one, or do you understand that several could work?]
5) RC was definitely not surprised to see MitD talk [as you know, this is where I disagree most vehemently with you; I do not see it anywhere near as clear cut], or otherwise he'd have asked him about it during the escape scene.

Correct? Any point I am missing?


-------ooOoo-------

Edit:
well Aboleths have genetic memory im not sure if its been suggested though, would have to be a huge Aboleth mage to have a challenge rating worthy though.

Unless its been waiting so long that its effectiveness has been reduced to reasonable challenge rather than TPK machine

Aboleths (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm) have not been suggested, and like every other of its type, it shows just how absurd the "you haven't found it yet, you must be doing something wrong" argument is.

- Strength: 28. Not quite to the 30 officially used, but close enough to be considered.
- Escape: 5th level arcane caster. While it is not usual for him to have it, he could have teleport. Arcane spells do have the problem of requiring conscious preparation, though, which doesn't quite work with MitD*.
- Circus: for once I don't need to hedge with a "sounds disgusting". It actually says it is in the description: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" (my emphasis).
- Size: Huge. Too big for the umbrella, but not for the cage. Not completely impossible, in other words.
- Language: psionic creature, so surprising it speaks, although it can speak three non-common languages. Subaquatic, too, so could be fluffed to say that, like some mermen, it can only speak underwater.

I have to say, unless someone comes up with a good reason against it, this might just end up in the forerunners. Several of them are tight squeezes - particularly strength - but it is remarkably fitting for the standards I set for the forerunners. I might go ahead and add "size, no bigger than huge" so I can drop a few of the older, way-too-big ones and slim the category a little.

Edit to the Edit: There seems to be some version of this creature that is pure psionic. Can someone look it up, and tell me how it fares in the strength and escape sections in that version? Thanks.

Grey Wolf

*Am I right here? Something in the back of my mind tells me there was a discussion on how certain arcane casters might not have to prepare spells, but for the life of me can't recall the specifics.

[Spacewolf]

Im not familiar how a mind effecting attack would effect a psi creature and how would that fit for RC not knowing about if psis existed or not. Of course MitD's lack of powers could of been the reason for his scepticism.

As for the TPK comment it was simply that a CR17 for the huge varient would mean at this point he would be about the right level for the OOTS rather than the ball in the hole Xykon seems to think he is.

PSIloth link if this is the sort of thing your looking for

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psionic_Aboleth

[Binks]

The Aboleth is an interesting candidate all things considered.

Pros:
High Strength
Possible casting (I've seen at least 2 version on a quick internet trawl that have casting abilities. Neither has teleport, but that doesn't mean there's not one out there with it).
Normally not seen in a jungle environment (normally found in underground lakes and rivers)
Racial memory and the ability to gain the memory of anything it consumes(!?). That would certainly explain the recent remembering of the astral plane if he ever ate someone who'd been there, or if his dad ever ate someone who'd been there.
Big, heavy, grows as it ages (so his dad would have to be much bigger than him, perhaps a few size categories bigger)
Long tentacles for grabbing, and 4 of them.
Species generally are more concerned with enjoying themselves than wasting time subduing other races
Omnivorous, will eat any organic matter. Fluff says they usually like living prey to gain memories too, but MiTD might not like the memories (explaining the 'doesn't eat babies' thing?)
Darvision, assuming that's a bonus
Aberations eat, sleep and breath
High will save, but no immunity to mind-affecting
Depending on how fluff is handled might gain high DR from being out of the water. Fluff says that should also make it unable to do anything though.

Cons:
Normally too big to be medium
Not too great defenses, but with size adjustment could have 20AC
No version I've seen has any way to explain the escape
Normally dries up on land
Aquatic subtype, would need amphibious or some other explanation for why it can live in air. Interestingly the fluff states that it 'drags itself along with its tentacles on land' despite it not being able to breath on land.
Mature in about 10 years, so no idea why MiTD hasn't grown up yet
Sadly the best supplement for information on them (Lords of Madness) came out in 2005. It's close enough that Rich might have known something about what was in there, but that's pure guessing. The other supplemental official information sources are mostly from after that, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of 3.5 official aboleth support pre 2004.

Scenes assuming an Aboleth:

Big Game Hunters - Makes perfect sense that they would be surprised to find one so far from its natural habitat, not frozen in place on land, and speaking common.
Circus - Sickening look, not sure why some would find it beautiful unless it accidentally used some illusion psi-like ability. Then again I think the picture looks cool, not sickening, so who knows.
Redcloak knows - Yeah, an Aboleth could probably kill quite a few people there. Base is CR 7, but the mage is CR 17, which puts it above Redcloak up until very recently, and we've seen how a CR 17 can handle a bunch of low-CR enemies.
Xykon's first look - Makes sense
Xykon's mind control - Aboleths are capable of consuming creatures. No immunity.
Darkness around him - Nothing to say here

Legal issues - On the SRD. Variants might have legal issues.
Escape - No idea on this one. Possible for the mage to have access to a spell that does it, but there are the aforementioned issues with the mage itself (have to prepare spells) as well as the fact that this would technically not be a pre-existing creature anymore (though that's a pretty minor technicality IMHO since it's 1 spell). Would be best to find an old enough variant that has some means of explaining this.
Breaking the wall - Bit of a problem here, as the aboleth isn't strong enough. Spellcasting might negate the issue but none of the built-in stuff seems able to do this (psi-likes are illusions). Also if he 'hit' Miko with a tentacle then the slime Ex ability might come into play, which we don't see in that scene.
CR - Below min bounds assuming scary = powerful. Assuming scary = terrifying, however, anything from the Far Realms should pretty much auto-win. Unsure on this one, as the Aboleth Mage's CR is a bit low at just 17.

Anyone know of any variants that were published pre-2004? Or is there something in the 2005 LoM book that fits perfectly that Rich might have known about early?

[zimmerwald1915]

I may be misremembering, but doesn't an aboleth have three eyes, stacked one on top of another?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I may be misremembering, but doesn't an aboleth have three eyes, stacked one on top of another?

Most do (http://images.wikia.com/forgottenrealms/images/7/79/4e_aboleth.jpg), some don't (http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/081/f/e/Aboleth_by_shiprock.jpg). The last one does have three red orbs that are likely its eyes, but you could easily call the two side-orbs it, too.

Grey Wolf

[Schadrach]

Possible for the mage to have access to a spell that does it, but there are the aforementioned issues with the mage itself (have to prepare spells) as well as the fact that this would technically not be a pre-existing creature anymore (though that's a pretty minor technicality IMHO since it's 1 spell).

The Aboleth Mage casts as a wizard. Accordingly it prepares spells from something equivalent to a spellbook, and it's spell levels and DCs are based on intelligence. The spells listed are even described as "typical" spells prepared. This is certainly a more minor deviation from a published critter as published than is necessary for some of the other frontrunners, I mean it's not like we're lopping off a head and shrinking it three size categories or anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Aboleth Mage casts as a wizard. Accordingly it prepares spells from something equivalent to a spellbook, and it's spell levels and DCs are based on intelligence. The spells listed are even described as "typical" spells prepared. This is certainly a more minor deviation from a published critter as published than is necessary for some of the other frontrunners, I mean it's not like we're lopping off a head and shrinking it three size categories or anything.

Indeed, but as I mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12675754&postcount=108), it brings its own set of problems. MitD is never seen studying spells. We have Word of God saying that he was unaware of his ability to cause the escape. An arcane caster doesn't fit either of those things, unfortunately. If the psionic version is from after strip #100, then it is not such a good fit.

Grey Wolf

[Schadrach]

Indeed, but as I mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12675754&postcount=108), it brings its own set of problems. MitD is never seen studying spells. We have Word of God saying that he was unaware of his ability to cause the escape. An arcane caster doesn't fit either of those things, unfortunately. If the psionic version is from after strip #100, then it is not such a good fit.

Grey Wolf

The psionic version isn't even an Aboleth Mage, merely an Aboleth, they have distinct stat blocks, rather like Ogre and Ogre Mage, rather than being simply a $creature with class levels. If it cast as a sorcerer, the whole studying thing wouldn't apply (the Aboleth Mage casts as a wizard and thus prepares/uses Int rather than knows/uses Cha, but for reference to other creatures with actual arcane casting the as a wizard/sorcerer divide is important).

If it's background involved the overused cliche of amnesia (via the programmed amnesia spell, perhaps?) it's technically possible that it prepared those spells before it was discovered and was made to forget that it had done so, or was even capable of doing so). Prepared spells do not fade until cast, after all. But that's getting kinda silly and difficult to guess.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The psionic version isn't even an Aboleth Mage, merely an Aboleth, they have distinct stat blocks, rather like Ogre and Ogre Mage, rather than being simply a $creature with class levels.

Yes, I know that the Psionic Aboleth is distinct from the Aboleth Mage, from my wiki search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboleth#Dungeons_.26_Dragons_3.5_edition_.282003-2007.29). I was hoping it'd be about as powerful as the mage version, but with psionic powers that would fit better. Since then, I've found (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/abolethPsionic.htm) it (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psionic_Aboleth), and unfortunately can't explain the escape. As you said, it is closer in power to the base Aboleth than the Mage one.

Grey Wolf

[PseudoPserious]

...
Racial memory and the ability to gain the memory of anything it consumes(!?). That would certainly explain the recent remembering of the astral plane if he ever ate someone who'd been there, or if his dad ever ate someone who'd been there.
Big, heavy, grows as it ages (so his dad would have to be much bigger than him, perhaps a few size categories bigger)
...


Maybe MITD ate someone who had a much bigger and hungrier dad, and MITD's recollection of "his" dad wasn't really his own?

His comments about his father were sort of wishy-washy, just like his comments about the astral plane.

PP

[Branco]

The MitD is Rich Burlew!


-it's his comic he can give himself any superpower he wants. (like wishing ppl away for no reason)
-he didnt make himself up but hes not copyrighted either
- his ugliness could be self- deprecating humor
- its entirely possible to guess

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The MitD is Rich Burlew!


-it's his comic he can give himself any superpower he wants. (like wishing ppl away for no reason)
-he didnt make himself up but hes not copyrighted either
- his ugliness could be self- deprecating humor
- its entirely possible to guess

See last time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12606011#post12606011) this was suggested, about a week ago.

GW

[MDR]

Has the idea that the darkness around the monster is needed as something other than as a running gag been kicked around? I mean, the Order is barely on Team Evil's radar, and unless the MitD is *still* more powerful than the lich or the 17th level cleric, a 'big reveal' won't make much sense. Especially since they are not in a situation where a 'big reveal' is likely to happen.

It just seems to me that the original intent for the darkness has expired, and neither member of Team Evil has the patience to deal with Monster's constant complaining about being in the dark.

I understand that being in the Dark is intrinsic to the character and is a long running gag, I'm just wondering if there isn't more significance.

Potentials?
1) possible legal ramifications if his form is seen too much (i.e. belongs to somebody else who might overlook/agreed-to a few appearances but not a lot)
2) stops people/creatures from 'looking at him', stressing out his abilities (requires truly concealing darkness)
3) ???
4) profit (sorry, couldn't help it after the question marks :) )

In addition, at one point in the past a lantern archon confronted the Monster. Has that creature's, a Lawful Good creature's, reactions, or lack thereof, been taken into account. I do not have the books in front of me, but I don't think it was surprised that one of the invading bad guys was the MitD.

Minor thought, if the lady at the circus that found The MitD to be 'strangely beautiful' was a druid of some sort, even a really ugly creature might be seen as 'beautiful' from a certain, naturalistic, point of view. But that wouldn't be easy to discern from what we saw. I think.

Another minor thought. A lot has been made about the circus audience's reactions, but what about the circus performers' reactions? I think their (lack of) reaction to the Monster shows that a normal person can become 'immune' to the Monster's visage, whatever it may be.
Now that I think about it, was the circus the last time we saw mixed reactions? I mean, 'years later' the goblin and hobgoblins around him didn't seem very affected, Tsukiku didn't seem to have problems, and Haley and Belkar didn't have any adverse reactons to seeing the Monster. Perhaps that was a stage the Monster grew out of, or it was an ability he has learned to control? Which might suggest he is maturing, and is more mature than his intro in SoD (taking into account his mental growth has probably been stunted by Team Evil).

Or I might be reading waaaay to much into small details. :smallwink:



Oh, and as for the aboleth...it would explain not wanting to eat babies. What experiences do they have to absorb? An aboleth just might not see the point.

[BlackestOfMages]

The MitD is Rich Burlew!


-it's his comic he can give himself any superpower he wants. (like wishing ppl away for no reason)
-he didnt make himself up but hes not copyrighted either
- his ugliness could be self- deprecating humor
- its entirely possible to guess

Rich can punch people through walls and make them teleport? And before we say "he's the author, he can do whatever he wants", I'd like to remind you that that justification for any creature makes it impossible to guess.

aslo, I understand the general concencus for us Gaming-nerds is rather negative, but I don't think I've met someone who feels we can't talk (or that it'd be OK to sell us to a circus)


Has the idea that the darkness around the monster is needed as something other than as a running gag been kicked around?

I don't have the quote itself at hand, so this is a paraphrase but rich has stated he knows what the monster is, has known from strip 100 and is guessable. so, we're trying to, y'know, guess.

also, even if he is something crápé, we still want to know, goddamnit! MiTD may not be a major plot point, it may be less impressive than Xykon, but that dosen't stop us wanting to try and figure it out :smalltongue:

also, just due to Rich's writing style of not leading us on for a major letdown, I'd be rather offput if he did turn out to be worthless, since it'd clash very badly with the rest of the comic.

Lastly, considering how much RC and Xykon are focused on results (and Xykon's previous response to lazyness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), from something less lazy than MiTD I may add), I doubt they'd have kept him alive/with them this long unless he was something at least very impressive.

[MDR]

I don't have the quote itself at hand, so this is a paraphrase but rich has stated he knows what the monster is, has known from strip 100 and is guessable. so, we're trying to, y'know, guess.


I'm sorry, but I do not really understand this response to my post. At what point did I say we should stop guessing or that guessing was a waste of time? Or anything or the sort?




also, even if he is something crápé, we still want to know, goddamnit! MiTD may not be a major plot point, it may be less impressive than Xykon, but that dosen't stop us wanting to try and figure it out :smalltongue:


Again, I get the feeling you misread what I posted. At no point did I say we should not be trying to guess.



also, just due to Rich's writing style of not leading us on for a major letdown, I'd be rather offput if he did turn out to be worthless, since it'd clash very badly with the rest of the comic.


Ah, maybe that is where we are missing each other. When I talk about the 'big reveal', I meant the reveal to the Heroes, not to the Readers. The original reason Xykon put him in the darkness in the first place. Decades ago, storywise.
The point I was trying to make is that keeping the Monster in the darkness for the purposes of a 'big reveal' to the Heroes doesn't make a whole lot of sense anymore.

[WhamBamSam]

Another minor thought. A lot has been made about the circus audience's reactions, but what about the circus performers' reactions? I think their (lack of) reaction to the Monster shows that a normal person can become 'immune' to the Monster's visage, whatever it may be.
Now that I think about it, was the circus the last time we saw mixed reactions? I mean, 'years later' the goblin and hobgoblins around him didn't seem very affected, Tsukiku didn't seem to have problems, and Haley and Belkar didn't have any adverse reactons to seeing the Monster. Perhaps that was a stage the Monster grew out of, or it was an ability he has learned to control? Which might suggest he is maturing, and is more mature than his intro in SoD (taking into account his mental growth has probably been stunted by Team Evil).None of them actually looked at the MitD onscreen though. Redcloak saw him at the circus, and Xykon opened the box to look at him, but he was in the shadows/box when the other circus performers, goblinoid mooks, Tsukiko, Haley, Belkar, etc. interacted with him.

[WowWeird]

On the Tower scene (that is what we call it, right?:smallconfused: With Miko and Windstriker getting punched through a wall?), is it possible that MitD was using the dungeoncrashing feature from Dungeonscape? I don't have the book, and I've never read it, but Rich a( apparently wrote the book (Woah:smalleek:) and b( used it in OOTS #808 [ Relevant forum post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11982830&postcount=391) ] for Thog.

Pros- Similar to Nerdanel's proposal, but with double the Strength damage (which we can presume to be massive) and a slightly better base damage (with an average of 12 for 4d6)

Confirmed to exist in the comic-(again, see OOTS #808)

Explicitly damages the structure AND the subject, explaining the holes in the wall easily.

Cons- Is technically a Bull Rush action. While the actual event happens offscreen, it seems unlikely that the MitD would shove someone in a contest of "who can hit the lightest?" (Maybe he tried to just lightly bump Miko/Windstriker? Implausible, but so is a creature that punches people and horses through walls)

Requires Fighter levels. I think this is the biggie- no evidence exists to give MitD fighter levels, or any class levels whatsoever. Again, though, it isn't impossible.

Sending Miko/Windstriker flying. While the rules cited in Rich's forum post say nothing about shooting targets into the atmosphere, I don't have the book- I don't even know what happens when you break the structure you're damaging, let alone other details. Could possibly be Rule of Funny/simply MitD's ridiculous strength.

Timing of Dungeonscape release- the other killer. Dungeonscape was published February 2007, according to Wikipedia. This definitely rules out anything that has a variant on Dungeoncrasher without levels, as whatever MitD is existed in 2001. However, the actual strip is copyrighted 2006. Were it late 2006, I could see Rich having already secured the book deal, and while smoothing out the gaps, deciding to incorporate it into the MitD's repertoire, confident that Dungeonscape would be published soon enough to have readers see it before MitD was revealed (given his long-term plans for the comics, this could be seen as almost a certainty). I don't know at what point during '06 the strip was published, though- there are too many variables on when it was published, when Rich wrote Dungeonscape (with his partner, Jason Buhlman), if/when they knew it was to be a fully-supported 3.5 sourcebook, if they tried to write it and submit it once completed, rather than getting a book deal and writing towards that... I just don't know. Definitely one of the weaker points of the theory.

So, Dungeoncrashing fits very well statistically with what we see in the story, with a small exception- the Fighter levels (is it levels, or level?) we never see MitD use or reference throughout the comic. When brought into the real world genesis of the mechanic, however, everything gets a lot trickier. So, a nice theory statistically, but not something that really holds up under very tight scrutiny.
Maybe... maybe MitD's just really strong and punched them through the wall as a mix of Rule of Funny and the necessity to have Miko escape for the plot?
Naw, that's just overly complicated :smalltongue:
Comments/clarification on Dungeoncrashing wholeheartedly supported!:smallsmile:

[Copper]

We should add the information that he's probably been to the astral plane. Of course any creature could have at some point, but that seemed a lot like Rich giving us a pretty big clue.

[WhamBamSam]

We should add the information that he's probably been to the astral plane. Of course any creature could have at some point, but that seemed a lot like Rich giving us a pretty big clue.It could easily just be indicative of a high Int mod and his species having ranks in Knowledge(The Planes) or something like Hypercognition, much like his knowledge of the ritual.

[thereaper]

On the Tower scene (that is what we call it, right?:smallconfused: With Miko and Windstriker getting punched through a wall?), is it possible that MitD was using the dungeoncrashing feature from Dungeonscape? I don't have the book, and I've never read it, but Rich a( apparently wrote the book (Woah:smalleek:) and b( used it in OOTS #808 [ Relevant forum post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11982830&postcount=391) ] for Thog.

Pros- Similar to Nerdanel's proposal, but with double the Strength damage (which we can presume to be massive) and a slightly better base damage (with an average of 12 for 4d6)

Confirmed to exist in the comic-(again, see OOTS #808)

Explicitly damages the structure AND the subject, explaining the holes in the wall easily.

Cons- Is technically a Bull Rush action. While the actual event happens offscreen, it seems unlikely that the MitD would shove someone in a contest of "who can hit the lightest?" (Maybe he tried to just lightly bump Miko/Windstriker? Implausible, but so is a creature that punches people and horses through walls)

Requires Fighter levels. I think this is the biggie- no evidence exists to give MitD fighter levels, or any class levels whatsoever. Again, though, it isn't impossible.

Sending Miko/Windstriker flying. While the rules cited in Rich's forum post say nothing about shooting targets into the atmosphere, I don't have the book- I don't even know what happens when you break the structure you're damaging, let alone other details. Could possibly be Rule of Funny/simply MitD's ridiculous strength.

Timing of Dungeonscape release- the other killer. Dungeonscape was published February 2007, according to Wikipedia. This definitely rules out anything that has a variant on Dungeoncrasher without levels, as whatever MitD is existed in 2001. However, the actual strip is copyrighted 2006. Were it late 2006, I could see Rich having already secured the book deal, and while smoothing out the gaps, deciding to incorporate it into the MitD's repertoire, confident that Dungeonscape would be published soon enough to have readers see it before MitD was revealed (given his long-term plans for the comics, this could be seen as almost a certainty). I don't know at what point during '06 the strip was published, though- there are too many variables on when it was published, when Rich wrote Dungeonscape (with his partner, Jason Buhlman), if/when they knew it was to be a fully-supported 3.5 sourcebook, if they tried to write it and submit it once completed, rather than getting a book deal and writing towards that... I just don't know. Definitely one of the weaker points of the theory.

So, Dungeoncrashing fits very well statistically with what we see in the story, with a small exception- the Fighter levels (is it levels, or level?) we never see MitD use or reference throughout the comic. When brought into the real world genesis of the mechanic, however, everything gets a lot trickier. So, a nice theory statistically, but not something that really holds up under very tight scrutiny.
Maybe... maybe MitD's just really strong and punched them through the wall as a mix of Rule of Funny and the necessity to have Miko escape for the plot?
Naw, that's just overly complicated :smalltongue:
Comments/clarification on Dungeoncrashing wholeheartedly supported!:smallsmile:

How does this help us guess what MitD is?

Answer: it doesn't; it makes it harder.

Assuming class levels is the same as "pimp my tarrasque".

[Savannah]

I think the biggest issue with a dungeoncrasher fighter is that the whole point of dungeoncrasher is crushing the enemy between you and the wall. If it was severe enough to break the wall (and those would have to be really crappy walls), the MitD would fall though the wall as well. Furthermore, there's no way it could send someone flying as far as Miko and Windstriker did, even if MitD went through the wall as well.

[WowWeird]

How does this help us guess what MitD is?

Answer: it doesn't; it makes it harder.

Assuming class levels is the same as "pimp my tarrasque".

I agree that assuming levels is certainly bothersome, particularly in regards to the therblewurkasaurus issue, but is one class level (again, I assume- I don't have the book:smallredface:) really the same as stacking Phrenic and Half-Tarresque and Psuedonatural and Radiant and Half-Earth Elemental and Half-Dragon (...and Half-Celestial, Half-Fiendish, and so many others that could be it were it not for the fundamental stupidity of the premise)? I don't really know.
Oh, another con- The ability was written (or co-written) by Rich. While potentially an avoidable problem due to semantics ("I said I didn't invent the CREATURE, not it's abilities."), I think we all know Rich is capable of a lot more than that kind of cop-out.
So- Dungeoncrashing, variably depicted as "statistically valid answer, with strange out-of-story limiters" and "Pimp my Tarresque v. 2.0".
:smalltongue:

[Morthis]

It could easily just be indicative of a high Int mod and his species having ranks in Knowledge(The Planes) or something like Hypercognition, much like his knowledge of the ritual.

To me the statement "I love the astral plane" does not mesh well with just a knowledge (The Planes) check. If he said some basic facts about it like "The Astral Plane is weightless and silvery in color", sure that could be a knowledge check, but saying that you love the Astral Plane has little to do with knowledge. Based on information about the Astral Plane, I might say it sounds cool, I think I'd love it because being weightless sounds like it'd be fun, but it's hard to say for a fact I love the Astral Plane, I've never been there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We should add the information that he's probably been to the astral plane. Of course any creature could have at some point, but that seemed a lot like Rich giving us a pretty big clue.

Not going to happen. The entry would read something like "MitD might or might not have been to the astral plane at some point" which is as useless as you can get, conveying no relevant information about his species whatsoever. I am considering making a note that he is unlikely to be obviously extraplanar, but even that is depending on Xykon to be well-informed and thus of very little value.

No, as much as everyone wants it because it is fresh in our minds, the information is simply too wishy-washy to be added at this time.

Grey Wolf

[Savannah]

I agree that assuming levels is certainly bothersome, particularly in regards to the therblewurkasaurus issue, but is one class level (again, I assume- I don't have the book:smallredface:) really the same as stacking Phrenic and Half-Tarresque and Psuedonatural and Radiant and Half-Earth Elemental and Half-Dragon (...and Half-Celestial, Half-Fiendish, and so many others that could be it were it not for the fundamental stupidity of the premise)? I don't really know.

Two class levels, minimum. Dungeoncrasher comes online at 2nd level and improves at 6th.

[resound]

Now that I know the origin of the Hagunemnon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Gu ide_to_the_Galaxy#Haggunenons), I want the MitD to be one.

I hate to rehash this topic, but how can Wizards of the Coast borrow the Hagunemnon from Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (the Haggunenons of Vicissitus) without violating copyright? I'm not really familiar with copyright law and fair use, but it seems like if WoC can "borrow" this creature from Douglas Adams (maybe the paid him??) then Rich could "borrow" a creature that someone else had created as the MitD. Wouldn't it always be seen as parody because of the context?

BTW: I also am pulling for MitD to be a Hagunemnon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I hate to rehash this topic, but how can Wizards of the Coast borrow the Hagunemnon from Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (the Haggunenons of Vicissitus) without violating copyright? I'm not really familiar with copyright law and fair use, but it seems like if WoC can "borrow" this creature from Douglas Adams (maybe the paid him??) then Rich could "borrow" a creature that someone else had created as the MitD. Wouldn't it always be seen as parody because of the context?

By checking the first post, and seeing that WotC made their own version called a Protean.

GW

[resound]

But say Rich used a Snorlax... Wouldn't it be considered fair use because he would be using it in a parodying way?

Edit: Similar roots, but slightly different meaning - paradoxical and parodying.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But say Rich used a Snorlax... Wouldn't it be considered fair use because he would be using it in a paradoxical way?

First: I think you mean "parody". Second, check the first post, section 1b (notice a pattern here?). Third, MitD is not a parody of anything.

Edit: If you actually meant "why can he use the protean and not the snorlax?" the answer is simple: the comic is parodying D&D, and as such he can use all of the D&D resources (except possibly the trademarked ones and product identity ones like the Illithid). If Protean is or not a copyright violation of Douglas Adam's work, that is a fight between Douglas Adam's state and WotC. Rich has nothing to do with it.

Grey Wolf

[Vierbryn]

I noticed that in SoD Xykon tells MitD to "devour him [Redcloak] whole". It means that he either has ability to somehow swallow human-sized victims or is bigger than it looks like.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I noticed that in SoD Xykon tells MitD to "devour him [Redcloak] whole". It means that he either has ability to somehow swallow human-sized victims or is bigger than it looks like.

So did we. It's on the first post, even. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12658225#post12658225) to when it was suggested.

GW

[resound]

I re-read the information in the first post. Unfortunately, I disagree with some of the assertions therein. It's true that MitD might be a parody of a D&D creature. It is a character in a comic that is sometimes a parody of D&D. However, the "Evil Kitty" umbrella is definetly a parody of "Hello Kitty", and it is used out of context of the "Hello Kitty" genre. I disagree that parody can only be used within the context of the genre (e.g., Barbie dolls can only be used to parody the Barbie culture). In fact, I believe Barbie dolls have been frequently used to parody American culture, and the artists have been defended under the fair use doctrine.

That being said, I'm not sure how Rich would justify using a Snorlax, other than some sort of cross-gaming reference (since Pokemon and other card-based games owe a lot to D&D). I just don't think that we should discount the possibility that Rich could reveal the MitD as a parody of copyrighted material. Perhaps we could agree to disagree... :smallsmile:

P.S. I doubt we'll know if MitD is a parody until it's revealed.

[Irish Musician]

But that's the thing. The MitD isn't parody at all, despite what he might end up actually being. The umbrella is a parody because it is making fun of the fact that EVERYTHING has "Hello Kitty" on it now adays. I don't think there is a product out there that hasn't had some sort of Hello Kitty remake of itself, from shirts to pencils, to socks to lunch boxes, to most everything else you can think of, SOOOO Rich is making fun of the fact that even an evil moster that is a horrendous creature can have a "Evil Kitty"(Hello Kitty) umbrella.

The fact that you think the MitD is a parody shows you don't quite understand what exactly parodies are. The MitD isn't going to be a parody of anything, because Rich isn't making fun of any specific monster. The only thing you could say about the MitD making fun of, is that the Villain always has a "ace in the hole" moster up his sleeve, but that wouldn't protect Rich from using any copy-written material for the MitD.

[WhamBamSam]

To me the statement "I love the astral plane" does not mesh well with just a knowledge (The Planes) check. If he said some basic facts about it like "The Astral Plane is weightless and silvery in color", sure that could be a knowledge check, but saying that you love the Astral Plane has little to do with knowledge. Based on information about the Astral Plane, I might say it sounds cool, I think I'd love it because being weightless sounds like it'd be fun, but it's hard to say for a fact I love the Astral Plane, I've never been there.Given the MitD's childish personality, I wouldn't find it all that surprising. For example, a child watching Cookie Monster might decide that they love cookies before they ever ate one. If instead of watching it on television, we suppose that the child had an in built understanding/genetic memory of cookies or was reading the thoughts of someone else who was eating one, or whatever, it probably wouldn't make them any less likely to act in that way.

[WowWeird]

Two class levels, minimum. Dungeoncrasher comes online at 2nd level and improves at 6th.
Thank you for the clarification.

[BlackestOfMages]

The fact that you think the MitD is a parody shows you don't quite understand what exactly parodies are. The MitD isn't going to be a parody of anything, because Rich isn't making fun of any specific monster. The only thing you could say about the MitD making fun of, is that the Villain always has a "ace in the hole" moster up his sleeve, but that wouldn't protect Rich from using any copy-written material for the MitD.

This.


par·o·dy/ˈparədē/
Noun:
An imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect.
Verb:
Produce a humorously exaggerated imitation of (a writer, artist, character or genre).
Synonyms:
noun. travesty - skit - burlesque - spoof - mockery - send-up
verb. travesty - mimic - burlesque - mock

And even if he could e a parody, you can't really parody abilities without changing them, thus he'd still be guessable. his persoanlity could quite eaisly e a parody of another MiTD from some other work (or of typical monster enforcers), but that wouldn't make MiTD a pardoy himself. He's also - quite clearly - a humerous take on the typical hidden monster idea, and could be a parody of that

and since a parody is a humerously exagerated imitation, if miTD was a parody of a DnD monster, for it to be a parody he must be recognisable as the base monster, or else it's just something Rich made up and not a parody of anything, so MiTD being a parody of a creature or not actually has no bearing except perhaps on apperance and in-world reaction :smalltongue:

[Irish Musician]

Yes, MitD might be a parody overall, but whatever monster type he is, most likely, isn't a parody of anything. The exaggeration comes in the fact that he never got to do his "Big Reveal" and is stuck under this shroud of darkness until he can be revealed. So, yes, the idea of MitD might be parody, but the monster type itself is most likely not, which wouldn't protect Rich from taking from other copywritten material. And whther or not he is a parody does have a bearing because if he is a parody, then that opens up pandora's box of fantasy monsters that were ever made before strip 100. If he isn't a parody, then that limits our guesses to those that Rich would be able to write on without infringement.

[resound]

Yes, MitD might be a parody overall, but whatever monster type he is, most likely, isn't a parody of anything. The exaggeration comes in the fact that he never got to do his "Big Reveal" and is stuck under this shroud of darkness until he can be revealed. So, yes, the idea of MitD might be parody, but the monster type itself is most likely not, which wouldn't protect Rich from taking from other copywritten material. And whther or not he is a parody does have a bearing because if he is a parody, then that opens up pandora's box of fantasy monsters that were ever made before strip 100. If he isn't a parody, then that limits our guesses to those that Rich would be able to write on without infringement.

If you assume that MitD will turn out to be a known D&D monster, and not some other creature or character from a different genre, then effectively the parody is of D&D generally. The point is we don't know what MitD is. When it is revealed, it could turn out to be Rich parodying a Pokemon. It's not like Rich has never parodied anything from a well-known genre - Star Wars...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you assume that MitD will turn out to be a known D&D monster, and not some other creature or character from a different genre, then effectively the parody is of D&D generally. The point is we don't know what MitD is. When it is revealed, it could turn out to be Rich parodying a Pokemon. It's not like Rich has never parodied anything from a well-known genre - Star Wars...

{Scrubbed} MitD is not a parody of star wars, or pokemon or anything else. MitD is already present in the comic, whatever he is, and thus if Rich had picked a copyrighted creature, any lawyer could point at any of the 100 comics he is in and say, "not a parody".

But lets assume for a second that it was indeed a parody. Like three people have told you so far, that would make it a Rich creation, just like "evil kitty" is both a parody and a Rich creation.

But lets assume that Rich had picked something that was both a parody and also not his creation, although I cannot think of an example*: it would still be a copyright infringement because, like I already pointed out to you, "parody" is not a magical word that protects from the law, it is but a small piece of copyright infringement, which in this case will not protect Rich for the reasons explained in section 1b. Read it.

And now, for detailed explaining:

When it is revealed, it could turn out to be Rich parodying a Pokemon.
MitD has been present in well over 50 comics. Point at a single one of them that is "parodying Pokemon", by all means.


If you assume that MitD will turn out to be a known D&D monster, and not some other creature or character from a different genre, then effectively the parody is of D&D generally.

Irrelevant. No-one is applying the "can't be a parody" problem to D&D creatures, unless they happen to be product identity - as you have already been told.


It's not like Rich has never parodied anything from a well-known genre - Star Wars...

And it was a self-contained joke commenting on the thing being parodied, and making a funny moment out of it. That is how you parody something. Notice that MitD does not do that, and as such everything you are telling us is utterly irrelevant when talking about MitD.

Grey Wolf

*Edit: if Rich had used a creature that was already a parody, it would be a copyright violation of the parody creature; just because it's a parody doesn't make it any less of a copyright to the author of the parody.

[resound]

This is an opinion. How can I be wrong? I don't like the tone of the responses in this thread. Thanks for making me feel unwelcome.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is an opinion. How can I be wrong?

How? By expressing a concept that is orthogonal to reality. If I state that in my opinion the sky is green with purple polka dots, and that is why MitD is Mickey Mouse, the fact that it is an opinion doesn't stop it from being wrong. The purpose of this thread is to determine facts about MitD. The specifics of its legal status are one of such facts. Since it is a rather important one, the basics of it are in the first post, for everyone to read before bringing it to the table, so that anyone wanting to discuss it can start where the discussion last left of - the general point that while MitD could be defensible as parody under the "small piece of the whole" aspect, it still cannot claim parody status. There might be arguments to be stablished against it, but if so you have not brought any to the forefront.

Edit: and I might as well add: how is your post "an opinion"? And how would we know? It is redacted as an establishment of factual position, and thus subject to counterpoints.


I don't like the tone of the responses in this thread. Thanks for making me feel unwelcome.

I don't like the fact that you don't respond to other's comments except by repeating the same thing over and over (to whit: "MitD is a parody") without addressing other's concerns or arguments. If our tone has deteriorated and made you feel unwelcome, it probably is because it gets tiresome to say the same thing over and over again with the feeling that we are being ignored. The fact that you feel the need to address personalities rather than arguments is fairly telling.

Grey Wolf

[Bulldog Psion]

I kind of hope that this "parody" thing will be a short lived fad, much as I hope that the "funeral" and "sexual orientation" threads will lose their glamor shortly.

There is no evidence that MitD is a parody of anything. Just saying "maybe he's a parody" doesn't prove anything. Though I can't tell you ladies and gentlemen what to post and what not to, I can still express a hope that we can stop cluttering up the new thread with walls of text about parodies, which are utterly unhelpful when it comes to figuring out what the MitD is.

Grey Wolf has put a LOT of work into this thread, and repeating what amounts to pointless fluff over and over again, with absolutely nothing substantial added to the discussion, does nothing except get everyone irritated and waste space in this thread. I mean, we're already 10% of the way to the thread being closed and a new one started.

[Irish Musician]

Agreed Bulldog, let us move on from the pointless, "he's a parody" argument, because it will get us no where.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I kind of hope that this "parody" thing will be a short lived fad, much as I hope that the "funeral" and "sexual orientation" threads will lose their glamor shortly.

The good news is, it'll pass, I'm sure. We get fads, and they last a few weeks and then they are left behind (until they get resurrected, usually through no fault of the necromancer, who simply was not around). There was the Snarl. And oh-Thor-not-again-Tarrasque. Templates, of course. And now parody.

The bad news is that there will be other subjects discussed to death.


There is no evidence that MitD is a parody of anything. Just saying "maybe he's a parody" doesn't prove anything.

Indeed. The only way forward in this topic is if they showed how MitD is a parody. I don't think he is, but I have been wrong in the past, a lot. All it takes is the appropriate argument. Which, unfortunately, "maybe MitD is a parody" isn't.

Someone did touch the edges of an argument at some point up-thread: MitD could be considered a parody of "lurking in the shadows" monsters - particularly its sunny disposition, innocence and desire to not be in the darkness. But since there isn't an archetypical copyrighted creature that is "The" monster in the darkness, MitD is not a parody of it as much as an inversion, maybe with a pinch of deconstruction thrown in. Or, in short, he is the Evil Team's comic relief, mirroring Belkar's role for the Good Guys (paraphrased: "Some of us have to tell jokes for a living, you know?")

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

The good news is, it'll pass, I'm sure. We get fads, and they last a few weeks and then they are left behind (until they get resurrected, usually through no fault of the necromancer, who simply was not around). There was the Snarl. And oh-Thor-not-again-Tarrasque. Templates, of course. And now parody.

Grey Wolf

Hey, I was thinking.........maybe the MitD is a Tarrasque :smallamused::smalltongue:

[resound]

I think I see the problem. When I suggest that MitD might be a parody of some other creature or character, I'm talking about the unrevealed creature or character hidden in the darkness, not the MitD as it has been presented all along. I'm not disputing that MitD as it has been presented to date is not a parody. I cannot think of any thing that it would be parodying. I am not trying to prove that MitD is a parody. I'm trying to offer an alternate opinion that the creature or character hidden in the darkness, once revealed, could even turn out to be something like a Snorlax or an alien, Youngling, Sith Lord.

I realize you are attempting to collect and present evidence in order to deduce the true identity of the creature or character behind the darkness, but I don't not see any reason why people cannot offer alternate opinions about your evidence or your reasoning without being summarily dismissed as false or wrong. If you don't want to engage in polite debate, then please don't post. :smallannoyed:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think I see the problem. When I suggest that MitD might be a parody of some other creature or character, I'm talking about the unrevealed creature or character hidden in the darkness, not the MitD as it has been presented all along. I'm not disputing that MitD as it has been presented to date is not a parody. I cannot think of any thing that it would be parodying. I am not trying to prove that MitD is a parody. I'm trying to offer an alternate opinion that the creature or character hidden in the darkness, once revealed, could even turn out to be something like a Snorlax or an alien, Youngling, Sith Lord.

There is no difference between MitD before the reveal and after the reveal. Let me give you an example. MitD finally steps out of the shadows, and it turns out it was Mickey Mouse all along. Were Disney Corporation to hear of this, and one of his lawyers took Rich to court over the use of a Disney copyright, said lawyer would point at every single appearance of MitD and show to the judge that it was not used as a parody of Disney. Rich would then loose, and be forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in penalties, as well as erase every single comic that had MitD from his website. Just because it is not being drawn it doesn't mean it is not the same character, and even though I've said this to you now, what, four? times, you have as of yet given me a reason why I might be wrong.

And even if I am wrong, as I have explained to you already, "parody" isn't a magical shield that will simply liberate Rich of all legal troubles. Parody is but one piece of what constitutes copyright infringement through fair use. But I do not believe I am wrong. MitD as a character exists before and after the reveal, as is obvious from the fact Rich has said it can be figured out: hints that, put together, identify MitD's species are in the comic, and any lawyer worth its salt would use those to show the judge that the creature was always the one copyrighted to his company. The fact that they also have Rich's word on it ("around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since.") is only one more damning piece of evidence.

As such, whatever creature is hidden in the shadows is what it is before and after the reveal. If it is a Black Mage from final fantasy, Square Enix will have very solid ground on which to sue Rich. Rich, being aware of this, will not have used the copyrighted material from any company with more lawyers than sense.


I realize you are attempting to collect and present evidence in order to deduce the true identity of the creature or character behind the darkness, but I don't not see any reason why people cannot offer alternate opinions about your evidence or your reasoning without being summarily dismissed as false or wrong. If you don't want to engage in polite debate, then please don't post. :smallannoyed:

Polite debate involves two people giving arguments for their positions. My complaint about your posts has been, and continues to be, that you are merely stating positions from personal authority, with no actual fact or argument behind them. I consider that impolite.

As to summarily dismissing your opinions: as I said above, there is no indication in your posts that these are "opinions". And even if they are, they are subject to the same scrutiny of any other position, if they are attempting to establish a position. If your "opinion" is that "MitD may be a parody" but you don't argue how, nor address all the arguments against it, and merely repeat, over and over again, that "it might be a parody" as if that were enough to shield Rich from copyright laws (hint: it doesn't) and for all the world you make it seem like you only glance at everyone else's posts, then of course it looks "summarily" dismissed. There is nothing to discuss in a post empty of content. You say "it might be a parody" and we give you basic arguments why it is not. Then you repeat "but it might be a parody", at which point all we can do is say, "no, for the reasons we said above". Which is precisely what we are doing. Summarily, certainly, because there is nothing more to say that has not already been said.

Grey Wolf

[Whiffet]

I think I see the problem. When I suggest that MitD might be a parody of some other creature or character, I'm talking about the unrevealed creature or character hidden in the darkness, not the MitD as it has been presented all along. I'm not disputing that MitD as it has been presented to date is not a parody. I cannot think of any thing that it would be parodying. I am not trying to prove that MitD is a parody. I'm trying to offer an alternate opinion that the creature or character hidden in the darkness, once revealed, could even turn out to be something like a Snorlax or an alien, Youngling, Sith Lord.

I realize you are attempting to collect and present evidence in order to deduce the true identity of the creature or character behind the darkness, but I don't not see any reason why people cannot offer alternate opinions about your evidence or your reasoning without being summarily dismissed as false or wrong. If you don't want to engage in polite debate, then please don't post. :smallannoyed:

Okay, so what you're trying to do is tell people to keep an open mind and not dismiss something because it is copyrighted, right? Because if something is a parody, it is considered Fair Use?

What people are trying to tell you is that in order to be a parody, MitD has to actively be, well, parodying something. Rich can't throw in a Snorlax or a Sith Lord and claim parody if there was no sign of it in the vast majority of the comic. Just because we didn't see the Snorlax until MitD is finally revealed doesn't mean the copyrighted character wasn't a major part of the comic. Fact is, if the MitD is a parody of a copyrighted character then we need to be able to see that since Rich first decided what MitD is. We need to see that MitD is a way for Rich to poke fun at a specific character or franchise.

Basically, if MitD was a parody of something besides the concept of "secret weapon concealed until the end" we would have to know about it in order for it to actually be a parody. Otherwise, it isn't a parody.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Well, I haven't jumped in for a while, but I'm going to toss out two suggestions.

First, is my usual assertion that the MitD is in fact Minya, son of Godzilla (http://godzilla.monstrous.com/minya.htm). Usually this is shot down as a gross violation of Toho Corp's copyright of at least two of their monsters. BUT! Parody is allowed under Fair Use, and was in fact used by Nickelodeon for the characters "Reptar and friends," in the Rugrats TV series; a clear spoof of Godzilla and the other monsters of Monster Island. So instead of specifically saying the MitD is Minya, I am going to say the MitD is a spoof of Minya, or basically the son of the most powerful monster ever.

Second, here is my other choice for a monster to be the MitD: Teddy's Healing Bears. Here is the creator's quote as posted by Rich on Rich's Kickstarter Profile page:

Each is unique and made with love from repurposed, sustainable materials. At once strange yet comforting, grotesque yet beautiful.

SoD Spoilers:
This quote is almost word for word what was said about the MitD at the circus.

And seriously, what monster is more powerful than a teddy bear? What CAN'T a teddy bear do? Teddy bears protect children from EVERY OTHER monster while they are sleeping. (Somebody posted a "D&D Demotivator" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216977) with a teddy bear and a wooden sword holding off a dragon while his child lay sleeping. It is the 28th post, I couldn't figure out how to post to a specific post as a hyperlink.)

Rag teddy bears have been around for quite some time. And rag dolls have been protecting children from long before President Teddy Roosevelt refused to shoot a captured bear cub.

[DaggerPen]

Well, I haven't jumped in for a while, but I'm going to toss out two suggestions.

First, is my usual assertion that the MitD is in fact Minya, son of Godzilla (http://godzilla.monstrous.com/minya.htm). Usually this is shot down as a gross violation of Toho Corp's copyright of at least two of their monsters. BUT! Parody is allowed under Fair Use, and was in fact used by Nickelodeon for the characters "Reptar and friends," in the Rugrats TV series; a clear spoof of Godzilla and the other monsters of Monster Island. So instead of specifically saying the MitD is Minya, I am going to say the MitD is a spoof of Minya, or basically the son of the most powerful monster ever.

You keep mentioning this, yes, but I don't remember you ever satisfactorily explaining how it accounts for the escape. Also, I don't really see how he'd count as a spoof- what part of the Godzilla mythos would he be making light of?


Second, here is my other choice for a monster to be the MitD: Teddy's Healing Bears. Here is the creator's quote as posted by Rich on Rich's Kickstarter Profile page:

Each is unique and made with love from repurposed, sustainable materials. At once strange yet comforting, grotesque yet beautiful.

SoD Spoilers:
This quote is almost word for word what was said about the MitD at the circus.

And seriously, what monster is more powerful than a teddy bear? What CAN'T a teddy bear do? Teddy bears protect children from EVERY OTHER monster while they are sleeping. (Somebody posted a "D&D Demotivator" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216977) with a teddy bear and a wooden sword holding off a dragon while his child lay sleeping. It is the 28th post, I couldn't figure out how to post to a specific post as a hyperlink.)

Rag teddy bears have been around for quite some time. And rag dolls have been protecting children from long before President Teddy Roosevelt refused to shoot a captured bear cub.

... this is a joke suggestion, right? Also, you don't have to spoiler SOD spoilers. That's a given on this thread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You keep mentioning this, yes, but I don't remember you ever satisfactorily explaining how it accounts for the escape.

IIRC, "there was one episode [he] remember[s] where Minya might have been involved in the mysterious teleportation of someone". I was never able to find an independent reference to this.

There is also the matter of the size (http://i.imgur.com/BvQ9I.jpg), of course.

Grey Wolf

[ThomasMink]

I dunno, this whole thing has me completely left in the dark as to what MitD really is.

ho HO!
(Yea, I apologize for that.. couldn't resist)

Oddly enough, though, MitD himself also seems to be 'in the dark' about such.

Also apologize for contributing absolutely nothing, but.. whatever.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Grey Wolf covered what I was going to say. I've never been able to find a copy of Godzilla's Revenge (All Monster Attack), so it's strictly from my memory. I was hoping Google Video might have it, but no luck. But what I remember from 35+ years ago was that Minya somehow sent Ichiro(?) back home without physically moving him. The easiest answer is that Ichiro just woke up from a dream, but my very faded memory says that Minya did or said something... Sorry it's such a crappy answer, but it's all I got at the moment.

The "spoof" is of course, being the most powerful monster ever. Especially in pop culture. I can't think of ANY monster more powerful than a Japanese Rubber Suited Beastie than Godzilla in pop culture, which seems more in line with Rich's story than some obscure templated beastie. Every creature that has appeared in the strip has been something you can quickly grasp as a joke, not something you have to wait for a Playgrounder to explain to you.

Yes, the teddy bear is a joke opinion, especially since Teddy's Healing Bears are not exactly common. I'm just curious who wrote that quote... The guy who invented the bears, or Rich himself, giving us a clue to hash over.
While teddy bears can of course defend against anyone and anything, rare is the teddy bear as big as the MitD. I've seen bigger mind you, but they are usually in teddy bear museums. But teddy bears are definitely Public Domain, so Rich is free to use them.

[Aasimar]

What kind of significance does this strip have?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

It tells us that while he's incredibly strong, he finds the notion of holding something and moving it at the same time very tricky.

Could be he has only one pair of limbs, so he can lift stuff, or he can walk, but not at the same time (so my joke suggestion would probably be along the lines of 'Awakened Paragon Ostrich')

Or he could have some sort of limited telekinesis.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What kind of significance does this strip have?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

It tells us that while he's incredibly strong, he finds the notion of holding something and moving it at the same time very tricky.

Could be he has only one pair of limbs, so he can lift stuff, or he can walk, but not at the same time (so my joke suggestion would probably be along the lines of 'Awakened Paragon Ostrich')

Also could be rule of funny, or it could be an indication of his innocence, or a combination of all of the above. But yes, you've hit the major explanations of the thread. I've used that very same scene to calculate the minimum number of limbs of MitD, and reached a similar conclusion to your ostrich (two limbs, one of which can grab).

In a related fact, he can use crayons but can't draw too well - again, could be lack of dexterity with his limbs, or innocence, or rule of funny, or a combination thereof.


Or he could have some sort of limited telekinesis.

Unlikely from the wording used. The only scene that could show a form of telekinesis is the Go game (since his turn is completed without showing him reach out or give instructions for his move), but in other situations, he's made clear he can't levitate items (like when trying to get to the bucket in the circus).

Grey Wolf

[whitelaughter]

I just went for the obvious: googled "monster" "darkness" "teleport" "earthquake". Naturally the MitD had the first 6 hits.
The next though was this:
http://ratemyserver.net/index.php?page=mob_db&mob_id=1039

Something called 'Rate my server' has done up a monster named after Bahomet with many of the powers of the MitD (including bad breath).

Anyone know whether this is something that would be something that Rich would know about/be able to use without copyright problems/find funny?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just went for the obvious: googled "monster" "darkness" "teleport" "earthquake". Naturally the MitD had the first 6 hits.

Interesting. Not the keywords I'd have chosen. Darkness in particular I believe to be a red herring. There is only one piece of evidence that points to the darkness being part of MitD (that being MitD still being in the darkness while recovering Xykon's old lair), while there is a lot that points to MitD and the darkness being separate entities: the umbrella, the skulking in dark corners, the box, and specially Xykon's instructions ("leap out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) and say something terrifying") as well as MitD's wording ("I'll finally get to step out of the darkness?").

Edit: remembered one more: MitD requiring outside assistance (archons, spells, torch) to illuminate the shadows, rather than just dispel them himself.


The next though was this:
http://ratemyserver.net/index.php?page=mob_db&mob_id=1039

Something called 'Rate my server' has done up a monster named after Bahomet with many of the powers of the MitD (including bad breath).

Anyone know whether this is something that would be something that Rich would know about/be able to use without copyright problems/find funny?

I have no idea what this Rate my Server thing is, but it's copyrighted 2005-2012. Strip 100 is copyrighted 2004. So this creature almost certainly didn't exist at the right time.

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

I have no idea what this Rate my Server thing is, but it's copyrighted 2005-2012. Strip 100 is copyrighted 2004. So this creature almost certainly didn't exist at the right time.

Grey Wolf

Now is this monster a product of this website, or of a game that existed before strip 100, that would be my question. Though the monster lists a strength of 1 :smallannoyed:

[KillItWithFire]

I have no idea what this Rate my Server thing is, but it's copyrighted 2005-2012. Strip 100 is copyrighted 2004. So this creature almost certainly didn't exist at the right time.

Grey Wolf

The rate my server thing looks like a game of some sort which as you pointed out is fairly recent. However the creature he is displaying is a demon which a google search of the things name shows existed long before 2005. Closer to 1100. Can't really find any consistent descriptions of it's abilities though.

EDIT: More digging has revealed this creature (The Baphomet) to have been adapted to the 3.0 rules in the Book of Vile Darkness. I do not own this book so if anyone who does could take a look?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The rate my server thing looks like a game of some sort which as you pointed out is fairly recent. However the creature he is displaying is a demon which a google search of the things name shows existed long before 2005. Closer to 1100. Can't really find any consistent descriptions of it's abilities though.

Yes, of course Baphomet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet) existed long before that game. I first encountered it while playing Broken Sword. The question was about that particular interpretation of it.

As to its powers, it is a made-up demon (I mean, utterly made up, it's not even in any Holy text, which shall not be discussed here). Possibly a mistranslation of Mohammed (again, dangerous ground to trend, won't mention it again). Since it was made up out of thin air, no particular powers or abilities are really pinned down. It is likely a D&D version exists, actually, if anyone cares to hunt it down, but the usual caveats for D&D demons are likely to apply (embodiment of the plane's morality, unlikely parenthood, etc.)

Grey Wolf

[KillItWithFire]

Found him in the fiendish codex. On the good side he has an ability called bellow which sounds a lot like the shout MitD gave that startled Haley and Belkar. He has 33 STR and greater teleport at will and DR20-cold iron/good. Problems are he's huge, can't find anything to explain the circus or why he couldn't teleport the hobgoblin, his WIS is much higher than his INT (26 to 18) and nothing better than the teleport to explain the escape.

[monomer]

Baphomet, as shown on the RateMyServer link, is a boss monster from a popular Korean MMO called Ragnarok Online, which was originally released in 2002, though an English version wasn't released until about 2003.

[resound]

Okay, so what you're trying to do is tell people to keep an open mind and not dismiss something because it is copyrighted, right? Because if something is a parody, it is considered Fair Use?

Precisely. That being said, the probability is low. In defense of my position, I would point to another webcomic, H.O.L.E., where the author creatively inserts the Wicked Witch of the West from Wizard of Oz (both in standard and Godzilla-form), as well as cross-overs into online gaming spoofs, as parody. In fairness, Rich has restrained his parodies, in that he never seems to parody through drawings (other than the whole concept of stick-figure D&D), but rather he parodies situations, like story-lines and relationships from Return of the Jedi. That being said, I concede that it is doubtful, but still not impossible.

Additionally, I think I politeness in debates has more to do with being cordial and not personally attacking or impatiently dismissing others.

[Irish Musician]

Additionally, I think I politeness in debates has more to do with being cordial and not personally attacking or impatiently dismissing others.

We weren't impatiently dismissing your argument, just dismissing it on the ground that it had to legs to stand on at all. You presented an argument but had to evidence or backup. We weren't being mean or anything at all, but there are arguments these guys have heard many times before, so if they jump to the end of the argument as opposed to listening to the whole argument, forgive them, because they already know how it will end. It isn't impatience, it is knowing all the logical steps the argument will take and jumping to the end because they know the argument doesn't hold water.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Precisely. That being said, the probability is low. In defense of my position, I would point to another webcomic, H.O.L.E., where the author creatively inserts the Wicked Witch of the West from Wizard of Oz (both in standard and Godzilla-form),

The wizard of oz is no longer copyrighted, since it predates Mickey Mouse. It does not defend your position at all. The very fact that you think it does shows just how orthogonal your opinion is to reality. It is as disassociated from reality as my "green sky with polka dots" example was.


I concede that it is doubtful, but still not impossible.

Again, you state it is "not impossible", but you have yet to give us a single reason as to why we are wrong and you are right. You have not addressed the issues with fair use, or the impact on the original work, or its breadth, or any of the other concepts of copyright and its use.

That said, I am tired of discussing this with you. This will be the last time I answer one of your posts on the matter of copyright, unless you suddenly start giving us something other than your belief that you are right. Others may want to try and explain to you the reality of copyright, but I am going to set my limit at five posts.


Additionally, I think I politeness in debates has more to do with being cordial and not personally attacking or impatiently dismissing others.

Impatiently? I beg to differ. I have devoted way too much time to trying to have a conversation with you. Politeness goes both ways, and it is terribly impolite to never address a single one of the arguments given to you.

Grey Wolf

[Savannah]

So, going back to the recent discussion of MitD's orders to devour Redcloak whole and whether that means he has some sort of swallow whole ability, I just ran across this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) where the young adult black dragon swallows Haley whole. Dragons don't have any sort of swallow whole ability, which makes me think that creatures in OotS-verse can swallow things smaller than they are without needing a special ability.

I think that's the general conclusion that came from that discussion, but since I saw the strip I just wanted to throw that out there as some actual evidence of eating things whole in OotS-verse.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, going back to the recent discussion of MitD's orders to devour Redcloak whole and whether that means he has some sort of swallow whole ability, I just ran across this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) where the young adult black dragon swallows Haley whole. Dragons don't have any sort of swallow whole ability, which makes me think that creatures in OotS-verse can swallow things smaller than they are without needing a special ability.

I think that's the general conclusion that came from that discussion, but since I saw the strip I just wanted to throw that out there as some actual evidence of eating things whole in OotS-verse.

The discussion more petered out without reaching a solid conclusion, I'd say. The wording of the order was not precisely that of the ability, which is a strike against it, but something in MitD still must suggest to Xykon that he is capable of completely devouring RC. A big mouth, for example. I mean, that's not the kind of order you can give, say, a formian (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13718118/images/1296419736437.jpg), right? "Nibble him to death", maybe. "Devour him whole" not so much. Now, if it was a beholder (http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscreatures/games/dnd/beholder.jpg), then it is a much more plausible order to give.

Grey Wolf

[ManuelSacha]

I don't understand all the fuss about intellectual property.

The Giant flat out said that MitD is "something someone else made up". It's more likely than not that this monster is something copyrighted, rather than some public domain myth stuff.

Also, "parody is protected speech".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't understand all the fuss about intellectual property.

The Giant flat out said that MitD is "something someone else made up". It's more likely than not that this monster is something copyrighted, rather than some public domain myth stuff.

Read section 1b-Legal Issues to understand what the fuss is about. Only things in the public domain and anything in D&D (except product identity monsters) is fine for Rich to use since the comic as a whole can be constructed to be a parody of D&D, and D&D stands on loose ground anyway since their core market is providing material for other people to build stories around it.

That said, before you participate in this discussion, I am going to ask you to read through the last couple of pages. I have no desire to have to repeat myself all over again.


Also, "parody is protected speech".

No, it is not. Not in the broad sense you mean. Parody is a very specifically defined termed that can only be used in certain circumstances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use), as I have explained multiple times. In any case, no-one has ever managed to show this thread what MitD would be a parody of.

Grey Wolf

[Calzone]

Just out of curiosity, what's the argument for saying that Rich could portray the MitD as a parody of a D&D or other RPG creature, but not as a creature from some other IP? The MitD so far does not seem to be a parody of any specific D&D monster that I'm aware of, nor does he seem to parody any specific genre convention in D&D material. Oots as a comic is obviously a parody of D&D, and fantasy roleplaying games in general, but I don't see that the MitD's contribution to the comic ever really parodies D&D.

Is the general position that the identity of the MitD must be public domain, under a public license (like the SRD), or have a private license secured by Rich?

My expectation is that if the MitD could be a parody of D&D, than I would expect that he could also be a parody of any monster regardless of IP whom MitD could be a reasonable spoof of (ie, a monster that traditionally loves the dark/hates the light, etc.)

Sorry to add to the parody pollution, but if we're going to limit the sources MitD hails from artificially, I want to fully understand the logic underlying the decision.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just out of curiosity, what's the argument for saying that Rich could portray the MitD as a parody of a D&D or other RPG creature, but not as a creature from some other IP? The MitD so far does not seem to be a parody of any specific D&D monster that I'm aware of, nor does he seem to parody any specific genre convention in D&D material. Oots as a comic is obviously a parody of D&D, and fantasy roleplaying games in general, but I don't see that the MitD's contribution to the comic ever really parodies D&D.

Is the general position that the identity of the MitD must be public domain, under a public license (like the SRD), or have a private license secured by Rich?

My expectation is that if the MitD could be a parody of D&D, than I would expect that he could also be a parody of any monster regardless of IP whom MitD could be a reasonable spoof of (ie, a monster that traditionally loves the dark/hates the light, etc.)

Sorry to add to the parody pollution, but if we're going to limit the sources MitD hails from artificially, I want to fully understand the logic underlying the decision.

You've hit much of it yourself: D&D 3.5 has been released to the public domain under the SRD rules (an error I'm sure WotC won't make again in a hurry), except for a few creatures explicitly named "product identity" (which I'll get to in a second).

Can MitD be a 3.5 creature, then? Yes, certainly. Let's take all four steps:

1) Purpose and character: The OotS comic is a clear parody of the D&D setting, and as such, under guideline 1 of fair use, all its content is free to be used in the pursue of parody. Since the items used are part of the entity being parodied, just like the barbies were used to parody the barbie concept, every single one can be used. Mattel couldn't win the argument that each individual barbie was their IP, because as a whole the purpose and character of the piece was to parody Barbie.

2) Nature of copyright work: not particularly relevant here; since D&D 3.5 is fiction, the copyright is at its strongest, but the other sections apply.

3) Amount and substantiality: Rich has not shown every single creature in D&D 3.5 in his comic; as such, he is using a very small total of the whole copyright for the purposes of parody. Since this step is pretty much "the less you use, the more likely you are to be granted a copyright exception", Rich is on solid ground here re: D&D. Specially when you consider he has published no stats, used his own artwork, minimalistic in its nature and at best is only infringing in the general description and nomenclature of some of the rules and creatures.

4) Effect upon Work's value: as I said in my last(?) post, WotC is on very shaky grounds here. The whole point of their commercial enterprise is to sell the rules so that the players can create their own narratives. WotC can't now turn around and try to sue Rich for doing precisely what they took his money for: create his own narrative with their IP. Yes, in theory if everyone started doing D&D comics, and one day WotC wanted to make their own, they may have trouble finding a market that is already saturated, which is clearly an infringement of this step. But on the other hand, they essentially based their product on this, and I suspect that a judge would not be sympathetic.

Still, could Rich be sued and forced to pull down the comic? Certainly. In the US, it is ridiculously easy for big companies to wield their IP like a blunt sword to attack everyone. But so far, WotC has not crossed the line into suing their own commercial base (unlike, say, the music industry and the film industry) - in part because, as I explain, they are not as strongly in control of their IP as those two are.

One final note: all of the above applies mostly to the product identity creatures. All the others, under SRD, are even less protected by copyright. WotC does have copyright over them, they did not give it away, but under SRD rules they allow others to use their IP with few consequences (there are some, and you're free to read through the SRD to find them. I did a few threads back, but i've forgotten the conditionals, sorry).

All this, however, applies because the comic as a whole is a parody of D&D. If MitD where IP of something else, all these arguments would be useless, since MitD is part of a parody work, but not parody of anything in and of itself. No, not even "other RPGs". If he were a vampire from V:tM Rich would get sued.

Edit: I addressed the "parody of a monster in the darkness" idea very recently. Please read the whole thread before commenting again.

Grey Wolf

[Arbitrarious]

Sorry to bring it up if it's old terriotory, but why is the dread linnorm considered a forerunner over the corpse tearer? Both the arcane and divine spell lists grant access to create undead so that isn't a merit in favor of either option. The corpse tearer isn't also immune to mind-affecting, is almost as strong and charismatic, and starts 1 size smaller with only one head. Really the corpse tearer seems a better fit all around then the dread linnorm. Also regarding it's magic use, a common theme in fiction is that characters who have innate magic they haven't learned to control are subject to random spells going off based on what's going on around them. Could the abilities the MitD shown be the result of it's uncontrolled divine magic, earthquake, control weather, miracle, etc?

Edit: I know there was a spell, i think in FR, called Vanish or Send Away that was specifically teleport for someone else without going with them. Can't find it ATM though = /

[HeadlessMermaid]

All this, however, applies because the comic as a whole is a parody of D&D. If MitD where IP of something else, all these arguments would be useless, since MitD is part of a parody work, but not parody of anything in and of itself. No, not even "other RPGs". If he were a vampire from V:tM Rich would get sued.
The comic as a whole is a parody of D&D, and yet we have seen spoofs of Dune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0688.html), Final Fantasy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) and even Star Wars (roaches with lightsabers). The tricky part is that Rich never names (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/DimSun.png) anything copyrighted, but he can certainly think of appropriate ways to use them. And that's not speculation, it's a fact.

Therefore, the MitD can very well be something copyrighted, as long as Rich does not name it (so it must be easily recognizable on sight).

I've read your very useful first posts and your very useful links on fair use. (And my congratulations for your thorough work on this thread, by the way. :smallsmile: Oh wait, you're right. No congratulations deserved AT ALL.) But I think that the known modus operandi of the Giant himself should be a better indication.

Maybe the laws in his state are slightly different, or maybe his lawyer has advised him, or maybe the Wikipedia entry is outdated, or maybe he just risks it. I don't know and I won't try to guess. But it doesn't matter why he parodies copyrighted works even outside the scope of D&D - it matters that he does parody them. We actually know that for a fact.

[Whiffet]

The comic as a whole is a parody of D&D, and yet we have seen spoofs of Dune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0688.html), Final Fantasy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) and even Star Wars (roaches with lightsabers). The tricky part is that Rich never names (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/DimSun.png) anything copyrighted, but he can certainly think of appropriate ways to use them. And that's not speculation, it's a fact.

Therefore, the MitD can very well be something copyrighted, as long as Rich does not name it (so it must be easily recognizable on sight).

I've read your very useful first posts and your very useful links on fair use. (And my congratulations for your thorough work on this thread, by the way. :smallsmile:) But I think that the known modus operandi of the Giant himself should be a better indication.

Maybe the laws in his state are slightly different, or maybe his lawyer has advised him. It doesn't matter why he parodies copyrighted works even outside the scope of D&D - it matters that he does parody them. We actually know that.

The spoofs of Star Wars and such were passing jokes. MitD is an important aspect of the story. The two are very different. One is like Xykon and Redcloak trying to remember how the "Fear leads to anger" quote goes. The other is like Yoda being a member of the Order of the Stick throughout the entire comic.

[HeadlessMermaid]

The spoofs of Star Wars and such were passing jokes. MitD is an important aspect of the story. The two are very different. One is like Xykon and Redcloak trying to remember how the "Fear leads to anger" quote goes. The other is like Yoda being a member of the Order of the Stick throughout the entire comic.
However, if Yoda is in the dark under an umbrella throughout the entire comic and no one knows it's him, and twelve years later, at the final strip, he pops his head out just before the words "THE END", then your guess is as good as mine if that counts as a "passing joke" or not.

Just to be clear, I don't actually believe that this or that copyrighted creature fits the bill. I just think that that the copyright argument isn't so spectacularly solid as it appears.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry to bring it up if it's old terriotory, but why is the dread linnorm considered a forerunner over the corpse tearer? Both the arcane and divine spell lists grant access to create undead so that isn't a merit in favor of either option. The corpse tearer isn't also immune to mind-affecting, is almost as strong and charismatic, and starts 1 size smaller with only one head. Really the corpse tearer seems a better fit all around then the dread linnorm. Also regarding it's magic use, a common theme in fiction is that characters who have innate magic they haven't learned to control are subject to random spells going off based on what's going on around them. Could the abilities the MitD shown be the result of it's uncontrolled divine magic, earthquake, control weather, miracle, etc?

Because the corpse tearer was never actually proposed. The poster that brought both forward voluntarily discarded the corpse tearer since he can cast animate dead, which in his opinion (and mine, not that mine matters in this case) disqualifies him. Technically he would belong in the forerunners like the linnorm, but also technically does not belong in the lists at all, since it's not "proposed" if the person that brings it forward asks for it to not be considered. So I split the difference, and only added it to the general list. The linnorm and the other massive creatures in the forerunners are likely going to be dropped in an update anyway. I didn't do it this time around because starting a new thread is a headache without adding major remodeling to the mix.


The comic as a whole is a parody of D&D, and yet we have seen spoofs of Dune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0688.html), Final Fantasy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) and even Star Wars (roaches with lightsabers). The tricky part is that Rich never names (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/DimSun.png) anything copyrighted, but he can certainly think of appropriate ways to use them. And that's not speculation, it's a fact.

Therefore, the MitD can very well be something copyrighted, as long as Rich does not name it (so it must be easily recognizable on sight).

I've read your very useful first posts and your very useful links on fair use. (And my congratulations for your thorough work on this thread, by the way. :smallsmile:) But I think that the known modus operandi of the Giant himself should be a better indication.

Just because you don't name something doesn't mean that you are free to use someone else's copyright. It is not suddenly "fair use" if you don't mention that the weird mouse with the big ears' name is "Mickey Mouse". As to the rest of your "argument": everything that is not D&D is one-off jokes, which MitD clearly is not.

You, and everyone else trying to argue that MitD might be IP of a company other than Wizard of the Coast would do well to read everything I have said thus far, and everything in the wikipedia before posting again.


Maybe the laws in his state are slightly different, or maybe his lawyer has advised him, or maybe the Wikipedia entry is outdated, or maybe he just risks it. I don't know and I won't try to guess. But it doesn't matter why he parodies copyrighted works even outside the scope of D&D - it matters that he does parody them. We actually know that for a fact.

Edit: One off joke <> permanent character. And all the other maybes are just too absurd to even contemplate. If you really think any of them are true, present evidence. Like these "special laws" of Rich's state.

Edit:
However, if Yoda is in the dark under an umbrella throughout the entire comic and no one knows it's him, and twelve years later, at the final strip, he pops his head out just before the words "THE END", then your guess is as good as mine if that counts as a "passing joke" or not.

Oh for Thor's sake. I have already explained why this is wrong. Go back and read my posts.

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

Hm, assuming MitD actually been to the Astral plane, what does it have for effect on the discusion on his abilities explaining the escape scene?
Getting there, if he was there at all:), require plane shift, right?*
And planeshift is not what you easily would use to telepork someone from the tower to the Azurite fleet, right?

*Rich know about our thread so MitDs comment in the latest strip was clearly written for us. After all, RB could have chosen to have the monster be silent, or saying something else.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hm, assuming MitD actually been to the Astral plane, what does it have for effect on the discusion on his abilities explaining the escape scene?
Getting there, if he was there at all:), require plane shift, right?*
And planeshift is not what you easily would use to telepork someone from the tower to the Azurite fleet, right?

The information about teleporting you want is already in section 1b - the escape. At this point we don't know if MitD has even been to to the astral plane, and if he was, when and by whose means. Maybe future strips will change that, but at this point we have almost nothing to go on with.


*Rich know about our thread so MitDs comment in the latest strip was clearly written for us. After all, RB could have chosen to have the monster be silent, or saying something else.

I disagree. MitD has said cloudcuckoolander-ish asides before. What's surprising is not that MitD said something unexpected, silly and off-the-wall, is that Xykon didn't simply ignore him - although they know that it is sometimes the only way to shut him up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html).

Grey Wolf

[Gift Jeraff]

I seem to recall someone saying that the MitD devouring Redcloak might indicate something about his size, but the recent wight incident shows that's not a good indication of size (since a single Medium wight can apparently devour 4 other Medium creatures).

[Irish Musician]

I seem to recall someone saying that the MitD devouring Redcloak might indicate something about his size, but the recent wight incident shows that's not a good indication of size (since a single Medium wight can apparently devour 4 other Medium creatures).

I think it also depends on the creature. Wights could definitely just sit there and devour any amount of creatures I would think.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think it also depends on the creature. Wights could definitely just sit there and devour any amount of creatures I would think.If that were the case, the Giant could have handwaved it away as such, but he didn't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12585630&postcount=510). (In response to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12581907&postcount=240).)

At least, I read that as a "who cares?" type of explanation, which might also be the case for the MitD.

[Crusher]

I thought the problem with the Corpse Tearer was that it was a unique, like the Tarresque.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought the problem with the Corpse Tearer was that it was a unique, like the Tarresque.

If that is true, it is the first time it has been mentioned.

GW

[Irish Musician]

If that were the case, the Giant could have handwaved it away as such, but he didn't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12585630&postcount=510). (In response to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12581907&postcount=240).)

At least, I read that as a "who cares?" type of explanation, which might also be the case for the MitD.

It might be, but the MitD isn't exactly some random wights that chomp on each other. I would think Rich would be a little more particular with the evidence for the MitD.

[The MunchKING]

As such, whatever creature is hidden in the shadows is what it is before and after the reveal. If it is a Black Mage from final fantasy, Square Enix will have very solid ground on which to sue Rich. Rich, being aware of this, will not have used the copyrighted material from any company with more lawyers than sense.

To be fair Black Mages (as the Final Fantasy versions) Have been used in a WHOLE LOT of popular webcomics anyway. 8-bit theatre merely being the most obvious one. SO if someone has permitted thier IP to be major charecters in other webcomics, I don't know why Rich would be an exception.

(That said I REALLY don't beleave it's a Black Mage, but it's not like people haven't used him before).

[Crusher]

Huh. That conversation was ages ago so maybe I'm not remembering it very well. I just did a quick search for its actual description and found a couple, one of which is http://www.lomion.de/cmm/draglcot.php which describes it as unique but also http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/mainlist2.pl?name=Corpse_Tearer which doesn't particularly describe it as Unique.

Its possible I Googled it a while ago, saw the Unique tag, and sort of figured that was an issue without anyone who wasn't in my head actually saying anything about it.

[The MunchKING]

Yes, the teddy bear is a joke opinion, especially since Teddy's Healing Bears are not exactly common. I'm just curious who wrote that quote... The guy who invented the bears, or Rich himself, giving us a clue to hash over.
While teddy bears can of course defend against anyone and anything, rare is the teddy bear as big as the MitD. I've seen bigger mind you, but they are usually in teddy bear museums. But teddy bears are definitely Public Domain, so Rich is free to use them.

They had Doll Golems in AD&D, they weren't THAT great...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To be fair Black Mages (as the Final Fantasy versions) Have been used in a WHOLE LOT of popular webcomics anyway. 8-bit theatre merely being the most obvious one. SO if someone has permitted thier IP to be major charecters in other webcomics, I don't know why Rich would be an exception.

It's not an exception. Those comics are taking advantage of the same fair use rule that Rich is using, except they are parodying Final Fantasy, as opposed to D&D. Since MitD is not parodying Final Fantasy, he can't be a Final Fantasy character.

Grey Wolf

[Steven]

Just a question for GW: I was reading through the comic archives for giggles and when I got to the escape scene I paid closer attention having just finished reading two of these threads.

You've asserted on a few occasions that Xykon thinks that V was responsible for the escape. I'm not sure that the dialogue actually indicates that: Xykon says first off "Who just stole my kills?" and then in the next comic says "YOUR prisoner ... and then popped out of here without a trace."
He doesn't attribute it to V at all.

I'm just wondering if I've missed a later discussion of it or if you're drawing a conclusion from the above mentioned dialogue?
It probably doesn't matter one way or the other but I just like to know if I'm missing obvious things.

Regards,

Steven.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just a question for GW: I was reading through the comic archives for giggles and when I got to the escape scene I paid closer attention having just finished reading two of these threads.

You've asserted on a few occasions that Xykon thinks that V was responsible for the escape. I'm not sure that the dialogue actually indicates that: Xykon says first off "Who just stole my kills?" and then in the next comic says "YOUR prisoner ... and then popped out of here without a trace."
He doesn't attribute it to V at all.

I'm just wondering if I've missed a later discussion of it or if you're drawing a conclusion from the above mentioned dialogue?
It probably doesn't matter one way or the other but I just like to know if I'm missing obvious things.

Regards,

Steven.

No, I don't say that. All I say is that if Xykon blames someone for the escape, a logical person to blame would be the arcane caster with epic teleportation abilities. But Xykon doesn't really care who caused the escape. Beyond his initial rage, all of his concentration is centered on recovering the phylactery, not on what happened to the prisoner he doesn't much care about and the wizard he beat handily.

The only question that is important for this thread is if he might suspect MitD, and there is no evidence that he does. Once he calmed down he could have potentially thought over the scene again (very un-Xykon like, but could happen), and the question is if MitD could at that point be blamed. The evidence is negative. Xykon believes MitD was sleeping through the whole thing and that he never does anything, and there are more plausible scenarios for the escape that do not involve MitD from Xykon's PoV and knowledge.

In any case, the entity that "stole [his] kills" is never mentioned by Xykon again, and I honestly believe he has admitted he isn't likely to find it and has moved on, channeling that rage into browbeating RC into recovering the phylactery and moving on with the plan.

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

Well said GW. Steven, Xykon doesn't think MitD is worth anything aside from being able to pop out of the darkness at the right moment and eat the good guys. That is the only thing he cares about. Anything else the MitD might be able to do is totally lost on Xykon because Xykon doesn't think MitD has anything else useful to his name, magic or otherwise. So, in that scene, it wouldn't even occur to Xykon that MitD created their escape. And even if it did, he would dismiss it and move on.

[Steven]

That all makes sense. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious.

Cheers.

[Irish Musician]

That all makes sense. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious.

Cheers.

No prob, I do it all the time and GW usually sets me straight! :smallbiggrin:

[EternalRuin]

So, I'm sure this has been discussed already, but...

Are there any scenes other than the escape scene in which the MitD's eyes glow? (And not just the normal yellow circles; they look different right when he says escape) Or are there any other characters/monsters in the comic who's eyes glow when using spells/spell-like effects? Because maybe there exists some monster that has eyes that light up when it cast spells or something :smalltongue:

edit: grammar

[lothos]

Because the corpse tearer was never actually proposed. The poster that brought both forward voluntarily discarded the corpse tearer since he can cast animate dead, which in his opinion (and mine, not that mine matters in this case) disqualifies him. Technically he would belong in the forerunners like the linnorm, but also technically does not belong in the lists at all, since it's not "proposed" if the person that brings it forward asks for it to not be considered. So I split the difference, and only added it to the general list. The linnorm and the other massive creatures in the forerunners are likely going to be dropped in an update anyway. I didn't do it this time around because starting a new thread is a headache without adding major remodeling to the mix.
[snip]


Hi, I haven't posted much for a while, about 40 pages or so, but I was the original proposer of the Dread Linnorm back in the first thread about MitD.

I acknowledge there are a couple of big problems with the Dread Linnorm... having 2 heads being a significant one, the size and also immunity to enchantment spells. The thing that really made me look at it closely was it's special ability to hurl creatures in combat, which seemed to fit so well with what happens to Miko and Windstriker back at the tower. The other thing is that it can have access to 9th level Sorcerer spells, including potentially Wish.

So why not a Corpse Tearer ? Well, instead of having Sorcerer abilities, it has cleric abilities, including potentially the ability to cast Miracle. As Grey Wolf said, that could mean MitD could potentially animate dead.... but that wasn't the biggest reason I discarded it.

Cleric casting requires a high wisdom, 19 wisdom to cast Miracle. Having 19 wisdom just doesn't fit MitD at all in my opinion. However 19 Charisma could quite easily fit in my mind. 19 Intelligence is also a reasonable fit... but not 19 Wisdom.

Does anyone think MitD is wise ? Intelligent maybe, charming and charismatic perhaps, but wiser than almost any humanoid alive ? That doesn't sound right to me.

"Escape" is clearly some kind of magical or psionic ability. It could be a spell like ability, or a spell, a psionic power, or maybe something else if MitD isn't a D&D monster. If it's a spell, it's got to be from Wisdom based casting (eg. Cleric), Charisma Based Casting (e.g. Sorcerer) or Intelligence Based Casting (e.g. Wizard).

The big problem with both Intelligence Based casting and also Wisdom based casting is that so far as I know, both seem to require preparation of spells. All the Charisma based casting I know of is spontaneous...

Now thinking about Escape, does it seem likely that MitD prepared the spell and then somehow forgot he prepared it ? This just seems impossible to me. That's the biggest reason why I discarded any creature that could provide the "Escape" power with Cleric, Wizard, Druid.... etc. spell casting, anything that prepares spells. With Cleric (or Druid) as I said, you have the added problem that 19 Wisdom just doesn't seem to fit his naive personality.

The best fit for an ability to power "Escape" is without doubt in my mind a Spell Like Ability. So Wish as a Spell like ability would be the best thing to look for..

Psionics are something I don't know much about in 3rd or 3.5 edition D&D. I never actually played 3rd edition, only "Basic" and 1st Edition AD&D. I'm not really qualified to comment on them and I've never been able to access any of the rulebooks about it to read up on it.

So if it's not a spell like ability and if I exclude Psionics (because I don't know enough about the abilities), the only thing left in my mind is Sorcerer, Favoured Soul or Bardic casting.

I scoured MM1 to MM5 looking for creatures with Wish as a Spell Like Ability, or with the ability to cast 9th level Sorcerer spells. I couldn't find a single creature with the ability to case 9th level Favoured Soul spells by the way... and Bardic Spellcasting doesn't seem to have a power that could reasonably be "Escape"

Anyway, that was my methodology.... I was just trying to get some kind of "filter" to identify reasonable candidates and the Dread Linnorm's throwing special ability seemed interesting... it also fits the circus scene, but I'll be the first to admit it's not a perfect fit.

Cheers.

[Crimsonmantle]

(sure it's possible with the right backstory, but it's also possible the MitD is an ant with the right backstory).
This is now officially my pet theory on the MitD's species.

[rweird]

Cleric casting requires a high wisdom, 19 wisdom to cast Miracle. Having 19 wisdom just doesn't fit MitD at all in my opinion. However 19 Charisma could quite easily fit in my mind. 19 Intelligence is also a reasonable fit... but not 19 Wisdom.

See Trumpet Archon P. 18-19, Wis 16, has 7th level spell prepared. I don't think anything with clerical casting would need Wis 19 to cast clerical miracle unless it gets the casting by virtue of class levels.

[Irish Musician]

A wild thought appeared while reading lothos' post. So the MitD talks, unlike all the others of his species. I have a feeling that this has been gone over before, but what else does he do/what other qualities about him are also unlike his species. Can that fact that he can talk be the only thing about him that is unlike his species, or does he have other powers, strengths, or weaknesses (i.e. the mind control vulnerability) that his species doesn't normally have.

Example, not for use of what MitD, but to help illustrate my point: He is a product of a diety of some sort, son or something of the like, but something happened and now he can be mind controlled. Kind of like the Disney version of Hercules (I know Disney is a bad example of actual Mythology, but stay with me here). He was once a god, the little evil goons turned him mostly mortal...in the D&D world that might mean he is now susceptible to mind control.

After this lengthy explanation my point is: Maybe talking isn't the only thing MitD can or can't do that his species normally doesn't have the know-how for, that is all really. And ripping to shreds in 3....2....1.....:smalltongue:

[WhamBamSam]

After this lengthy explanation my point is: Maybe talking isn't the only thing MitD can or can't do that his species normally doesn't have the know-how for, that is all really. And ripping to shreds in 3....2....1.....:smalltongue:Talking was the only thing that was lampshaded though, and it becomes pretty much impossible to figure out what he is if any given piece of evidence can potentially be false without any indication. It also pushes the creature much closer to being something that Rich created. If Xykon's spell goes off and Redcloak, while being eaten, screams with his last breath that mind affecting spells shouldn't have worked, that would open up semi-divine creatures, but as of now we have to assume that the ability to speak is the only deviation from the norm, or we can't really come to any conclusion at all.

[Lord Bingo]

... . And ripping to shreds in 3....2....1.....:smalltongue:

You are proposing that the MitD might have more abilities that are not "normal" for his race. This would only make it harder to figure out and it would probably violate the "can be guessed" clause.

If we start making concessions of this kind: "the escape ability is something Rich added to the creature, so it should not be taken into account when we try and find a creature that match the evidence", whose to say which of the abilities Rich added and which are part of the base creature?

Unless Rich lampshades an ability, like he did with the MitD's ability to speak, there is no reason to assume that any ability thus far manifested by the monster is not inherent to his species.

-edit-
Dammit. A ninja beat me to it...

[Irish Musician]

Yeah that makes sense. I like having people who know this stuff to bounce my ideas off of, because I have weird ideas sometimes. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:


-edit-Dammit. A ninja beat me to it...

Heh, it happens. Just surprised it wasn't GW that time :smallamused:

[Arbitrarious]

Hi, I haven't posted much for a while, about 40 pages or so, but I was the original proposer of the Dread Linnorm back in the first thread about MitD.

Well thought out discussion of points

Cheers.

The reason for my quandary is thus. All Linnorms can fling enemies, so that is in favor of both. Both arcane and divine casters can raise undead which is against both. That being said, anything with wish as an SLA could also raise undead. That means we are either looking for a creature that can explain what it has done with very precise abilities outside of the wildcard powers like wish and company, or we must discard RC's comment as referencing the MitD demonstrated abilities and not it's potential abilities.

I certainly agree the sorcerer's inborn magic makes more sense flavor wise for not knowing it's abilities, it's never been clearly explained how a creature with inborn prepared caster abilities comes into it's power. Do they experience the wild flares of magic as they cast unformed spells to fill desires until they learn to control their magic like the fluff for sorcerers' or do they simply have no power until they sit down and master it?

On the subject of mental ability scores. None of them have been demonstrated to be very high. It's flashes of brilliance are better explained by knowledge checks then general intelligence since it seems generally slow on the uptake and forgetful. It seems nice, but not the most compelling companion you ever met. It certainly isn't full of insight. But what part of this represents low scores versus the mindset of a child. Linnorms are dragons and most are ancient. 30 years to them might be the mental equivalent to a 6 year old. It's hard to say at that point. Aside from a couple specific knowledges the only thing we've seen to indicate it's mental prowess is it learned Go quickly. I know many people think games like that are solely int, but awareness of pieces on the board are also important. It's easy to make a costly mistake by overlooking an enemy piece. Then again wis has always been poorly defined in my opinion.

Honestly I think we need to look at psionic creatures, but there aren't many of them powerful enough to fill all the criteria so far.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Both arcane and divine casters can raise undead which is against both.

No, you are wrong. While it is true that both arcane and divine casters could have that spell, the important thing here is that every divine caster has access to the spell, unless they worship a God opposed to the idea, while arcane casters might have access to the spell, but equally likely might not. If MitD is an arcane caster, it can conceivably not have access to create undead but still have access to wish. But if he were a divine caster, there is no scenario where he wouldn't have access to both, with the only exception of "worshipper of an undead-hating divinity" which begs the question of what he is doing hanging around an epic Lich, and why his God hasn't got him out of there.

No, in the scale of things, an arcane caster is plausible ("his spell book simply doesn't have the create undead family of spells") while a divine one is harder to fit in. The problem with an arcane caster is not that RC knew he couldn't help create undead, it is that we have never seen him prepare spells or show any knowledge of magic (inc. ignorance of teleportation).

Grey Wolf

[Arbitrarious]

No, you are wrong. While it is true that both arcane and divine casters could have that spell, the important thing here is that every divine caster has access to the spell, unless they worship a God opposed to the idea, while arcane casters might have access to the spell, but equally likely might not. If MitD is an arcane caster, it can conceivably not have access to create undead but still have access to wish. But if he were a divine caster, there is no scenario where he wouldn't have access to both, with the only exception of "worshipper of an undead-hating divinity" which begs the question of what he is doing hanging around an epic Lich, and why his God hasn't got him out of there.

No, in the scale of things, an arcane caster is plausible ("his spell book simply doesn't have the create undead family of spells") while a divine one is harder to fit in. The problem with an arcane caster is not that RC knew he couldn't help create undead, it is that we have never seen him prepare spells or show any knowledge of magic (inc. ignorance of teleportation).

Grey Wolf

I'll agree with the native caster issue being an problem. However I'm not wrong about spell access in the context in which I'm discussing. RC pointed out he couldn't help without gaining 5 levels of cleric. That makes no sense if RC knew he was an arcane caster as it would be more likely to ask if he learned or gained access to a new spell. If the spell appears on both lists why ask about 5 more levels when a new spell known would solve it easier? Even wish access creates problems since it would allow him to emulate the animate dead spells which would have allowed him to assist in creating in undead. The only 2 casters that can't raise undead that I can think of are psions and druids.

Also, to nit pick, every non-good divine caster has access to that spell since you can't cast a spell whose alignment is opposed to your own. I agree arcane is more likely then divine, though it has trouble explaining the earthquake. I don't write that off as a mere "feat of strength". As I said we are better off looking for a monster whose specific abilities explain what has been done rather then something with wildcard powers like full spell access.

[Qwertystop]

Also, Wish could imitate Create Undead or Animate Dead, couldn't it? If the escape was from Wish, Miracle, or similar, that's a problem.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'll agree with the native caster issue being an problem. However I'm not wrong about spell access in the context in which I'm discussing. RC pointed out he couldn't help without gaining 5 levels of cleric. That makes no sense if RC knew he was an arcane caster as it would be more likely to ask if he learned or gained access to a new spell. If the spell appears on both lists why ask about 5 more levels when a new spell known would solve it easier? Even wish access creates problems since it would allow him to emulate the animate dead spells which would have allowed him to assist in creating in undead. The only 2 casters that can't raise undead that I can think of are psions and druids.

Alternatively, he could be an arcane caster with necromancy as his barred school and whose highest spell is teleport. That is enough to explain both the escape and why it would be easier for him to gain 5 levels in cleric than level all the way to wish.

GW

[Petey7]

We now know that psionics exist in the OotS world, but a thought occurs to me. In 3.5 all psionics are Int based, but in 3.0 different disciplines are linked to different ability scores. Psychoportation is linked to Dex for example. What I'm trying to get at here is, is there a concievable chance that OotS uses 3.0 Psionics (at least where it applies to MitD) since MitD first appeared (and his race possibly chosen) before Expanded Psionics Handbook came out in April 2004? If we are using 3.0 mechanics for psionics, then is it reasonable to also assume that MitD uses Dex, or possibly Str or Con, although those would be less likely (does 3.0 have reality revision)?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We now know that psionics exist in the OotS world, but a thought occurs to me. In 3.5 all psionics are Int based, but in 3.0 different disciplines are linked to different ability scores. Psychoportation is linked to Dex for example. What I'm trying to get at here is, is there a concievable chance that OotS uses 3.0 Psionics (at least where it applies to MitD) since MitD first appeared (and his race possibly chosen) before Expanded Psionics Handbook came out in April 2004? If we are using 3.0 mechanics for psionics, then is it reasonable to also assume that MitD uses Dex, or possibly Str or Con, although those would be less likely (does 3.0 have reality revision)?

No, there isn't a chance, since everyone gets upgraded to 3.5 automatically as per the first strip, if there is a new ruleset, which there is by the time the escape happens.

GW

[Savannah]

No, there isn't a chance, since everyone gets upgraded to 3.5 automatically as per the first strip, if there is a new ruleset, which there is.

Actually, Zz'dtri has a house ruled in 3.0 version of at least one spell, so there is precedent for 3.0 material remaining.

And I think part of the argument is that the Giant wouldn't have known how the rules would change when he picked MitD's race, so he would have either had to ret-con it or keep the 3.0 version and it may not have worked to ret-con it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, Zz'dtri has a house ruled in 3.0 version of at least one spell, so there is precedent for 3.0 material remaining.

And I think part of the argument is that the Giant wouldn't have known how the rules would change when he picked MitD's race, so he would have either had to ret-con it or keep the 3.0 version and it may not have worked to ret-con it.

And if that were the case, then I would expect a lampshade, like Rich gave us for the talking and the fly spell. Otherwise, it goes against evidence - it is not just that it's a grey area, we actually know that the OotS rules do the opposite. If and when we get the evidence, it can be revisited, but at this point, lacking any other indication, we have to assume MitD is either 3.5, or older and with no updated rules.

Grey Wolf

[Petey7]

No, there isn't a chance, since everyone gets upgraded to 3.5 automatically as per the first strip, if there is a new ruleset, which there is by the time the escape happens.

GW

I'm not convinced that there is proof of that. By the time of the escape, Rich had decided to completely ignore 4th edition, and had made jokes in the comic stating the making references to the differences between 3rd and 3.5 were tired at best (I believe is it in the 300s, three years before the escape scene). Also, he more recently stated that he ignores the rules a lot now anyways, just referencing them for class abilities, and the like.

I'm trying to argue the probability of 3.0 rules being used for psionics, but the possibility, nomologically speaking. In other words, given what we know to be true about the OotS universe, is it at all possible for psionics to work according to 3.0 rules. One thing I have to argue in favor of the idea is that under 3.5 rules, psionics is a form of magic, along with arcane and divine. You would think that if psionics is a form of magic that between several clerics, an epic sorcerer and a mystic theurge it would be easy enough to say if psionics existed. Under 3.0 rules, psionics is completely separate from magic, hence why Redcloak would have so much trouble figuring out if psionics existed and why he thought it could find answers that (other types of) magic could not. I mean, does it really make sense for Redcloak to say "Do you know how long it took me to even figure out if we were USING psionics in this world? I had to have a two sentence long conversation with XYKON for crying out loud."

I'm mainly bringing this up because, as Arbitrarious pointed out, MitD can be unintelligent while still knowing random facts. If that is the case (and we are still assuming that his wisdom is low), Str, Con, or Dex being the stat he uses makes more sense in my opinion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not convinced that there is proof of that. By the time of the escape, Rich had decided to completely ignore 4th edition, and had made jokes in the comic stating the making references to the differences between 3rd and 3.5 were tired at best (I believe is it in the 300s, three years before the escape scene). Also, he more recently stated that he ignores the rules a lot now anyways, just referencing them for class abilities, and the like.

All this is not relevant to the discussion. The evidence we do have is that the world they exist in follows 3.5 rules where available, and older ones were not. 4e is a different parallel reality, which we also have evidence for. Just because Rich has moved away from rule jokes doesn't mean that the rules on which he has based the world have changed - even in the recent comics it is clear that the subjacent rules of the OotS universe continue to be 3.5 rules, even if the humour has moved away from them. It is one thing that the jokes are more situational than parodying, and another that the OotS no longer follows 3.5 rules, particularly given that he lampshades the few moments where it doesn't, as with ZZ's spell.


I'm trying to argue the probability of 3.0 rules being used for psionics, but the possibility, nomologically speaking. In other words, given what we know to be true about the OotS universe, is it at all possible for psionics to work according to 3.0 rules.

No, everything we know, i.e. we have evidence for, is that the world continues to run on 3.5, even if the jokes no longer beat the dead horse as much. Nomologically, the OotS world runs in 3.5, and you have not presented evidence otherwise.


One thing I have to argue in favor of the idea is that under 3.5 rules, psionics is a form of magic, along with arcane and divine. You would think that if psionics is a form of magic that between several clerics, an epic sorcerer and a mystic theurge it would be easy enough to say if psionics existed.

No, that does not follow. RC does not get along with Tsukiko, so he wouldn't have asked her. And Xykon doesn't care. So all that is left is RC, who is the most knowledgable of the clerics - if he doesn't know, none of his flunkies know either. And since psionics has always been the third wheel of D&D mystical powers, plenty of worlds don't have it implemented. It is perfectly possible that RC would not know for sure if OotS did have it, thus having to search high and low for an example of psionics. Particularly if MitD could be psionic in some worlds and, in OotS, he clearly show no signs of psionic power.


Under 3.0 rules, psionics is completely separate from magic, hence why Redcloak would have so much trouble figuring out if psionics existed and why he thought it could find answers that (other types of) magic could not. I mean, does it really make sense for Redcloak to say "Do you know how long it took me to even figure out if we were USING psionics in this world? I had to have a two sentence long conversation with XYKON for crying out loud."

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Redcloak.png "Lord Xykon, do you know if there is psionics in this world?"
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/PimpedXykon.png "Nope"
This is pretty much what would have happened in your example. Xykon does not know or care about that kind of thing. With MitD not showing any potential powers, and Xykon not giving a damn, RC would have to find some other psionic creature. The one living in Dorukan's dungeon of course no longer being available.

Grey Wolf

[WhamBamSam]

No, that does not follow. RC does not get along with Tsukiko, so he wouldn't have asked her. And Xykon doesn't care. So all that is left is RC, who is the most knowledgable of the clerics - if he doesn't know, none of his flunkies know either. And since psionics has always been the third wheel of D&D mystical powers, plenty of worlds don't have it implemented. It is perfectly possible that RC would not know for sure if OotS did have it, thus having to search high and low for an example of psionics. Particularly if MitD could be psionic in some worlds and, in OotS, he clearly show no signs of psionic power.And as I've said before, even if he learned about the existence of psionics as a result of meeting the MitD, the statement would still make sense. He was, after all, very old for a Goblin by that point.

If there were one place I would expect Rich to stick more carefully to the rules it would be in providing clues about the MitD. In general, playing fast and loose with the rules wouldn't be servicing the plot, as in other cases, it would just make it harder to guess the creature's identity.

Also, regarding the problem of Wish allowing MitD to replicate Animate Dead, I see a few different explanations:
1. His species naturally has spell casting, but Redcloak considers him too stupid to use it.
2. He has a SLA that Redcloak considers him too stupid to use.
3. He has a limited number of Wishes per lifetime, and Redcloak doesn't want them wasted on a trivial task.

[KillItWithFire]

So I was looking at the first post and particularly the one in the second post dealing with sleep, while you note he needs sleep you only briefly touched on when he sleeps. Seems to me that he sleeps or pronounces himself tired consistently after using his more powerful abilities. Considering that would probably be one of our most helpful clues I was wondering if there was a reason it wasn't in the first post?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So I was looking at the first post and particularly the one in the second post dealing with sleep, while you note he needs sleep you only briefly touched on when he sleeps. Seems to me that he sleeps or pronounces himself tired consistently after using his more powerful abilities. Considering that would probably be one of our most helpful clues I was wondering if there was a reason it wasn't in the first post?

Because it is not. 99.9% of creatures in D&D have no relation between sleeping and their power use, and thus that assumption is of little actual use. There is also no evidence that he is tired because he used his powers - the connection is, at best, circumstantial. If a creature can claim the connection to its advantage, good for it. But otherwise, it has never been shown to be that crucial a clue.

Grey Wolf

[KillItWithFire]

Because it is not. 99.9% of creatures in D&D have no relation between sleeping and their power use, and thus that assumption is of little actual use. There is also no evidence that he is tired because he used his powers - the connection is, at best, circumstantial. If a creature can claim the connection to its advantage, good for it. But otherwise, it has never been shown to be that crucial a clue.

Grey Wolf

I guess, might deserve a mention though.

[Petey7]

All this is not relevant to the discussion.
It is relevent to the discussion, because it is part of the thought process that lead me to believe that some rules could work by the older way of doing things than 3.5. It shows that when Rich finds it inconenvient to switch to new rules, especially if it might effect how he plans on doing something in the story, he simply doesn't. Heck, he said so himself in his January 12th update. The fact that he no longer wants to make reference to the need to point out version differences between the two could be a good enough excuse to not lampshade the fact the psionics work like they would in 3.0 instead of 3.5. One point I forgot to include before is that Haley's father, Ian, is a 1st edition thief, meaning that his abilities work by 1st edition rules. This is just one more thing showing that older rulesets can be used when convenient, or when it will be funny.


No, everything we know, i.e. we have evidence for, is that the world continues to run on 3.5, even if the jokes no longer beat the dead horse as much. Nomologically, the OotS world runs in 3.5, and you have not presented evidence otherwise.


I never said that the OotS world does not mainly use 3.5 rules. I said that within the OotS world there is a possibility of 3.0 rules being used. It has already been proven that the 3.0 version of spells can be used. Any one who has played enough 3.5 can tell you that sometimes using 3.0 material is necessary or perfered. Take for example, the Book of Vile Darkness. It was never updated to 3.5, mainly because, it doesn't need to be. Minor tweaks are all that are needed to make it work. Lets say you want to be a Diabolist. Remove scy from the list of skills, and your pretty much done converting it to 3.5, but the book is still a 3.0 book. I know that psionics are a different story, but I stand by my point.


No, that does not follow. RC does not get along with Tsukiko, so he wouldn't have asked her. And Xykon doesn't care. So all that is left is RC, who is the most knowledgable of the clerics - if he doesn't know, none of his flunkies know either. And since psionics has always been the third wheel of D&D mystical powers, plenty of worlds don't have it implemented. It is perfectly possible that RC would not know for sure if OotS did have it, thus having to search high and low for an example of psionics. Particularly if MitD could be psionic in some worlds and, in OotS, he clearly show no signs of psionic power.



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Redcloak.png "Lord Xykon, do you know if there is psionics in this world?"
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/PimpedXykon.png "Nope"
This is pretty much what would have happened in your example. Xykon does not know or care about that kind of thing. With MitD not showing any potential powers, and Xykon not giving a damn, RC would have to find some other psionic creature. The one living in Dorukan's dungeon of course no longer being available.

Grey Wolf

So, according to you Xykon does not care about finding out how the next gate is protected? Considering his near death experience, I think he would. Before you say I am twisting your words, consider that that is exactly what you implied. The entire reason (as far as Xykon knows) why they were still in Azure city was to figure out, from Mr. Stiffy (my prefered name for him), how the next gate was protected. Xykon shows displeasure with still being there. In fact, he wanted to leave the moment he was back on his feet, but redcloak insisted that they stay. The conversation would probably go more along the lines of:

Redcloak: Do you know if psionics work in the universe?
Xykon: What? I don't know. Go away.
Redcloak: It could help us figure out what the paladin is hiding and allow us to leave sooner.
Xykon: Oh, you don't say. Why don't you go ask that mystic theurge chick. She's all about magical secrets or something like that.
Redcloak: Because I despise her.
Xykon: Good point. I hereby order you to go have a conversation with whats her name about that thing you were talking about.

Also, being more experienced or skilled does not automatically make you more knowledgable about every subject than other people in same line of work as you. It's like assuming a physics professor at my school knew more about chemistry because he went to a better school and has been teaching longer than my organic chem teacher. Any of the other clerics, who he had still only known for a few months, could have at any point in their lives witnessed someone or something using psionics, or heard someone else talk about it.

I don't know about you, but I would have asked at least a few people, whether I liked them or not (and do so on a regular basis), before spending a long amount of time trying to figure out the answer to a yes or no question. I assume Redcloak, as a logical person (most of the time) would have done the same. Also, your statement about psionics always being the third wheel of mystical power in DnD is not true. It was added somewhat late in OD&D. It was included in 1st, 2nd, 3.0, and 3.5, but it usually added in a supplement, and, as was lampshaded by Redcloak, it has, more or less. remained optional. In 4th addition it was not included for three years.

[ti'esar]

Actually, Zz'dtri has a house ruled in 3.0 version of at least one spell, so there is precedent for 3.0 material remaining.

And I think part of the argument is that the Giant wouldn't have known how the rules would change when he picked MitD's race, so he would have either had to ret-con it or keep the 3.0 version and it may not have worked to ret-con it.

Can someone provided a link to this, please? I can't actually remember it.

[Savannah]

I just read it not too long ago...ah, here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is relevent to the discussion, because it is part of the thought process that lead me to believe that some rules could work by the older way of doing things than 3.5. It shows that when Rich finds it inconenvient to switch to new rules, especially if it might effect how he plans on doing something in the story, he simply doesn't. Heck, he said so himself in his January 12th update. The fact that he no longer wants to make reference to the need to point out version differences between the two could be a good enough excuse to not lampshade the fact the psionics work like they would in 3.0 instead of 3.5.

All this comes down to because you say so, and otherwise your whole theory is invalid. This is at best circular reasoning, and at worst argument from personal conviction. You still have no evidence that any rule that was updated to 3.5 has been retained in its 3.0 format in the comic without being lampshaded. Since you have no evidence, I am unconvinced.

Edit: Also, you have not addressed any of WhamBamSam's arguments, and he makes some very good points as well ("If there were one place I would expect Rich to stick more carefully to the rules it would be in providing clues about the MitD").


One point I forgot to include before is that Haley's father, Ian, is a 1st edition thief, meaning that his abilities work by 1st edition rules. This is just one more thing showing that older rulesets can be used when convenient, or when it will be funny.

No, Ian was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) a first edition thief. He, like everyone else, got upgraded.


I never said that the OotS world does not mainly use 3.5 rules. I said that within the OotS world there is a possibility of 3.0 rules being used. It has already been proven that the 3.0 version of spells can be used. Any one who has played enough 3.5 can tell you that sometimes using 3.0 material is necessary or perfered. Take for example, the Book of Vile Darkness. It was never updated to 3.5, mainly because, it doesn't need to be. Minor tweaks are all that are needed to make it work. Lets say you want to be a Diabolist. Remove scy from the list of skills, and your pretty much done converting it to 3.5, but the book is still a 3.0 book. I know that psionics are a different story, but I stand by my point.

Again, irrelevant. If BoVD didn't get updated to 3.5, then it didn't get upgraded. Not the same case as psionics, and thus it is not an example that helps your position. Same with the house ruled spell. They are clearly exceptions to the general rule, and psionics is neither case.


So, according to you Xykon does not care about finding out how the next gate is protected?

No, according to the canon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) Xykon doesn't give a damn ("YOUR prisoner", and how he used him for his entertainment. Xykon never cared one bit about the interrogation).


Also, being more experienced or skilled does not automatically make you more knowledgable about every subject than other people in same line of work as you.

Except this is RedCloak, massive geek, who has every monster manual and knows about chemistry where the rest of the world is stuck in aristotelian elements. And he is wearing a very magical source of knowledge around his neck, to boot. But we are getting far afield. Your point was that psionics was a form of magic and that someone would know about it in his company. I fail to see the logic there - since it is a very rare form of magic that you yourself admit is optional in D&D, anyone that you ask and isn't an expert will answer "it's a form of energy that is optional. No idea if it this world has it".


Also, your statement about psionics always being the third wheel of mystical power in DnD is not true. It was added somewhat late in OD&D. It was included in 1st, 2nd, 3.0, and 3.5, but it usually added in a supplement, and, as was lampshaded by Redcloak, it has, more or less. remained optional. In 4th addition it was not included for three years.

That is exactly what "third wheel (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/third_wheel)" means. It is always optional, it is always added in later, and for much of D&D it might as well not exist. It's the poor unwanted brother to the two more important forms of mystical energy. So I'm sorry, but you just agreed with me, which makes me right, not wrong.

Grey Wolf

[Petey7]

I don't feel like going throught the trouble of multiple quote tags so I'll address your statements in order.

-No, it is because Rich Berlow himself stated that updated to new rules, especially if it might intefer with the story is too much of an inconvenience. I am merely presenting a theory based on his statements.

-I did not address WamShamBams arguments because I did not feel the need to but okay. Age does not equal knowledge (I assume that was the point he was making, but can't tell). I know many people the are old and dumb as dirt. And why would he take particular care when it applies to the MitD? He said himself, and there are plenty of examples in the comic, that he ignores them most of the time.

-The only evidence you provided that Ian was advanced to a 3.5 rouge is a single past tense verb used in comic 8, which was probably made before Ian Starshine was even thought up. Even MitD's race wasn't thought of at that point. We have no indication that he was alive until 123 strips later, probably because he wasn't alive until much later when Rich decided to give Haley a little character development. Even if that part of the plot was decided upon at that point in time, "was" is a perfectly legitament use for someone who was a criminal until thrown in jail, or she could have just been continuing the attempt to keep the rest of the party from knowing. No one else in the OotS knew he was alive until several hundred strips later.

-Said the same thing you did pretty much. I admit it was a poor example My point was that most stuff in 3.0 is compatible with 3.5 and then therefore be used. It even says in the DMG that 3.0 stuff can be used with few adjustments. By RAW if there is a 3.5 version, the 3.5 version must be used, but anyone who want to be a samurai is going to use the 3.0 version instead. The samurai class was upgraded to 3.5 but for a number of reasons, must people try to ignore the fact that the CW samurai exist.

-Because a single pronoun used in considerable anger, when he wanted to blame the entire incident on Redcloak, is a clear, unbiased sign of how he feels about the attempt to gain knowledge of Girard's gate. Also, was Redcloak not the head of the city at the time, and therefore, in charge of the prisoners? Also, "If we kill him by accident you can just bring him back to life" is a full sentence (rather than just a word like you used in many arguments) that shows that Xykon assumed the interagation could continue even if he was accidentally killed, while you assume that he did not care what so ever if the interagation continued or not. Anything after that can be considered Xykon's refusal to admit that he was wrong.

-I'll concede the point on this one. My argument was merely that the number of casters around Redcloak would make it probable that either 1) one of them knew about psionics, or 2) it did not exist in the OotS universe. But you would appear to be correct. Within the OotS universe at least, it is rare and none of them knew about it.

- Here I must apologize for skimming what you were saying without really reading it. I thought that you were trying to argue that psionics was on equal footing to divine and arcane magic.

Now that that is done, I think we have both made our views known and further discussion will get us no where in trying to determine the nature of the MitD, although if you wish to continue this discussion in a PM or somewhere else appropriate I would not be opposed to it. I just think this has become too much about how psionics work in OotS than about the threads actual topic. It was merely an idea and if no one else thinks it has ground to stand on, then we should move on.

[WhamBamSam]

-I did not address WamShamBams arguments because I did not feel the need to but okay. Age does not equal knowledge (I assume that was the point he was making, but can't tell). I know many people the are old and dumb as dirt. And why would he take particular care when it applies to the MitD? He said himself, and there are plenty of examples in the comic, that he ignores them most of the time. The point I was making with regard to Redcloak's age was that the statement "Do you know how long it took me to even figure out if we were USING psionics in this world??" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) makes sense even if he learned about the existence of psionics as a result of meeting the MitD (that is, due to the MitD being a psionic creature without a non-psionic variant, or obviously of the psionic variety), as it would have taken up until then for him to figure it out, which would be a very long time for a Goblin.

Taking liberties with the rules with regard to the MitD pushes it away from being "possible to guess" and "not something Rich made up." When the finer points of the rules can potentially have a lot of bearing as to what the creature is and on our ability to identify him, it makes sense to go be somewhat more careful about such things.

[lothos]

See Trumpet Archon P. 18-19, Wis 16, has 7th level spell prepared. I don't think anything with clerical casting would need Wis 19 to cast clerical miracle unless it gets the casting by virtue of class levels.

That is very interesting.... very good catch.

I was under the impression that to cast a spell (not a spell like ability), a creature with innate casting ability needed an ability score of 10 + Spell Level, just like a creature with class levels in a caster class would... your example clearly shows that not to be the case, at least for the trumpet archon.

So, is it stated somewhere that creatures should need 10 + Level to cast a spell ? Or is it stated somewhere they do not need that ? I'm just wondering if the trumpet archon is an oversight in the monster's design, or if it's just a grey area of the rules.... or what.

Back in the 2nd Thread, someone (I think it might have been Kish.. can't remember, sorry) explained helpfully that for Spell Like Abilities, you definitely did not need to have an ability equal to 10 + SLA level. However I was under the impression that only went for SLAs, not spells.

Unless we assume the trumpet archon should really have 17 wisdom and it's a mistake by the author of the Monster Manual, your point does mean my argument about needing 19 wisdom is wrong.

Even so, I think my argument about prepared casting holds. Wether we are speaking about arcane prepared casting (e.g. Wizard) or Divine prepared casting (Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger...), I just can't see MitD spending an hour preparing spells, then forgetting he has done so later in the day during the Escape scene.... prepared casting just feels absolutely wrong to me.

I think it has to be an SLA (my preferred option), a Psionic Ability or Spontaneous casting. I'd need a lot of convincing and maybe some lampshading from Rich to convince me MitD prepares spells of any sort.

As far as I know, all spontaneous casting is Charisma based, but I'm not an expert at 3.5 rules. This goes both for arcane spontaneous casting (Sorcerer, Bard) and divine (Favoured Soul).

If anyone has a counter example, it would be most interesting to hear about it.

Cheers.

[Arbitrarious]

Alternatively, he could be an arcane caster with necromancy as his barred school and whose highest spell is teleport. That is enough to explain both the escape and why it would be easier for him to gain 5 levels in cleric than level all the way to wish.

GW

That assumes two things which we don't know to be true and seem unlikely based on what we do know. 1. You can teleport without touching the target or going yourself. It's possible that is the case, but is outside the rules as we know them and therefore hard to adjudicate since I don't think an exception has been shown in comic. 2. If he can bar necromancy he is either a wizard, the only class I'm aware of that can forsake a school of magic, or is a monster that already has that school barred through it's racial casting, of which I don't any. That isn't to say there isn't. D&D is vast after all. Really if we are taking it as a solid lead it seems to steer as away from racial casting.




Even so, I think my argument about prepared casting holds. Wether we are speaking about arcane prepared casting (e.g. Wizard) or Divine prepared casting (Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger...), I just can't see MitD spending an hour preparing spells, then forgetting he has done so later in the day during the Escape scene.... prepared casting just feels absolutely wrong to me.

I think it has to be an SLA (my preferred option), a Psionic Ability or Spontaneous casting. I'd need a lot of convincing and maybe some lampshading from Rich to convince me MitD prepares spells of any sort.


"What gate?" to be fair the MitD is absent minded. Prepared casting seems wrong, but I don't think favored souls were around when mitd was finalized. Also I don't know of any monsters that racially cast spontaneous divine spells except for dragons who can learn them in place of sorcerer spells. I'm with you for favoring actual SLAs or possibly psionics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

<snip>1. You can teleport without touching the target <snip>. It's possible that is the case, but is outside the rules as we know them and therefore hard to adjudicate since I don't think an exception has been shown in comic.<snip>(emphasis mine)

In the last 7 pages I've had to direct people to the first post far more times that I thought would have been possible given the name of the thread. And yet here we have conclusive proof of yet another poster who gave it only the lightest of reads. My patience is at an end. Others can discuss with you if they want, but at this point your idea is at best splitting hairs, and only vaguely related to MitD. If you want to think Divine power source is equal to Arcana, do so. I will not talk to you again.

Grey Wolf

[rweird]

@ lothos: I agree that your casting argument holds. I was pointing out the problem I had with it. Other than that, I think all your deductions are reasonable.

[CloakedDancer]

-No, it is because Rich Berlow himself stated that updated to new rules, especially if it might intefer with the story is too much of an inconvenience. I am merely presenting a theory based on his statements.


I actually quite agree with this, because as was stated: Rich has said this. However the given example of the Expanded Psionics Handbook I find to be an unlikely possibility seeing as it was published in 2004. (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Expanded_Psionics_Handbook)

Also...

If there were one place I would expect Rich to stick more carefully to the rules it would be in providing clues about the MitD. In general, playing fast and loose with the rules wouldn't be servicing the plot, as in other cases, it would just make it harder to guess the creature's identity.


I agree with this to a point. Given what Rich has said, I believe he would be careful in making sure that his clues match up with the rules. However if we are to entertain the possibility that not everything about the MitD matches up to 3.5 rules then I think that it is possible that it might be difficult for Rich to stick to the rules exactly while still giving clues. (For example, if the MitD is not a D&D creature).

Which brings me to...

And if that were the case, then I would expect a lampshade, like Rich gave us for the talking and the fly spell. Otherwise, it goes against evidence - it is not just that it's a grey area, we actually know that the OotS rules do the opposite. If and when we get the evidence, it can be revisited, but at this point, lacking any other indication, we have to assume MitD is either 3.5, or older and with no updated rules.

Grey Wolf

I am looking for the exact quote... It appears the quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11982830&postcount=391) I was thinking of isn't necessarily addressing lampshading per se, but it shows that Rich doesn't always go out of his way in comic to explain things that aren't readily apparent. I'd like to think that because Rich cares about leaving the readers clues, he would make sure to lampshade anything that didn't fit even the tiniest bit; however, I'd be loathe to rule out the possibility of something simply because it was not lampshaded.

[EmperorSarda]

To be fair Black Mages (as the Final Fantasy versions) Have been used in a WHOLE LOT of popular webcomics anyway. 8-bit theatre merely being the most obvious one. SO if someone has permitted thier IP to be major charecters in other webcomics, I don't know why Rich would be an exception.

(That said I REALLY don't beleave it's a Black Mage, but it's not like people haven't used him before).

Also, Brian Clevinger was not making money off 8 Bit Theater. I don't think he was able to try and make money off it due to IP.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, Brian Clevinger was not making money off 8 Bit Theater. I don't think he was able to try and make money off it due to IP.

He was selling t-shirts, so he was making money off of it. I suspect that if Square hears about it, he'll get a nice C&D letter, but 8BT is very small in the grand scheme of things.


-No, it is because Rich Berlow himself stated that updated to new rules, especially if it might intefer with the story is too much of an inconvenience. I am merely presenting a theory based on his statements.

I had taken you at your word that you had evidence on your side here. But given how badly you misquoted canon, I decided to go check. Rich's words are, and I quote:


Plus I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.

There you have it, even more evidence that the rules he uses for such things as "spells or class abilities" - i.e. the very thing we are discussing, MitD's psionic spells and abilities - are, in fact, based on the 3.5 ruleset. Your argument doesn't have a single leg on which to stand.


-The only evidence you provided that Ian was advanced to a 3.5 rouge is a single past tense verb used in comic 8, which was probably made before Ian Starshine was even thought up. Even MitD's race wasn't thought of at that point. We have no indication that he was alive until 123 strips later, probably because he wasn't alive until much later when Rich decided to give Haley a little character development. Even if that part of the plot was decided upon at that point in time, "was" is a perfectly legitament use for someone who was a criminal until thrown in jail, or she could have just been continuing the attempt to keep the rest of the party from knowing. No one else in the OotS knew he was alive until several hundred strips later.

Do you have evidence for any of that? No. Do I have it for my position, that he was, and thus no longer is, a 1st ed thief? Yes. "Was" may be a single word, but it is a rather crucial one in that sentence, particularly since it was you, not me, that brought it up as evidence. You see, the problem I have with your argument isn't that somehow I hate 3.0 psionics, it is the fact that you have to handwave away every piece of evidence against your position to make it work, and you don't have any evidence in favour of your idea. You don't loose your class when you are thrown in prison, you do not know what was going on in Rich's head when he wrote that comic, the canon says that at that point she knew he was alive, and it cannot be a retcon because it was never stated anywhere that he was dead at that point.

Grey Wolf

[Holy_Knight]

Err... yes, you did, when you suggested that in the circus' public didn't recognise it because it was shifting into multiple things at once. Which made me think of a problem with what you are suggesting: on one hand, you suggest that what the SBGH saw and what RC saw were different, SBGH!MitD looking like a non-talking creature and RC!MitD looking like a talking one - but then you were forced to add that in the circus, MitD is shifting to a mess of things because it can't decide which shape to adopt (to get around the "Wouldn't be much of an act if it appears like a great big spider"). I still think it is a very big risk for the circus to have something like that as the act; while we saw a full house, there must be times when small groups come, groups that all share similar fears (fears do tend to run in families, particularly if they are all thinking of the same traumatic experience like the village's fire that killed half their population). Sooner or later, people are going to complain, like they did with the bearded lady, that MitD isn't unrecognisable, it's just a <common fear>. For the circus act to work, MitD must NOT be recognisable and statistics alone will eventually turn a shape-shifter into something that at least a few people in the audience can recognise. Not to mention that the circus people itself are bound to look at MitD individually from time to time and see something recognisable.
Not exactly--I think you may be somewhat conflating some of what I've said and why. I'm presuming that Redcloak really does know what the MiTD is, whereas the SBGHs more likely do not, and that Redcloak's correct identification is based on what he saw at the circus, including any hypothetical shapeshifting. So it's not that Redcloak saw the form of a talking monster in the same sense that the SBGHs saw the form of a typically non-talking monster. Instead, the SBGHs saw what they believed to be something for which talking is unusual, whereas Redcloak knows that the MiTD is in fact a monster for which talking is not unexpected. Also, nothing about the potential shifting was intended to get around the "wouldn't be much of an act" thing, for a few reasons, the most significant of which is that I suggested it before you ever brought that up as an objection. Aside from that, I don't think people's fears are as homogenous as you seem to (I should also mention that I don't think the shifting would have to be fear-based, but more on that later)--even in the real world, people's imaginations easily generate more creative things than "giant spider". But especially in the D&D world, where there are known to exist much more terrifying creatures than anything you and I would ever encounter, the range of things to be scared of is quite expansive.



No, it doesn't to you because you are content with hand-waving away the details. You have yet to define the nature of the shift, which is why I have to keep going in circles around it: does Shifter!MitD turn into people's fears? People's vomit triggers? People's beautiful-but-disgusting ones? And whatever he turns into, how does he know how to tailor it to the individual? I assume that requires a form of telepathy, not the traditional one, but something.
I'm not hand-waving anything. Something you seem to be missing is that I'm offering speculation which is designed to accommodate a few related possibilities. I haven't defined the nature of the shift intentionally, not as a dodge like you're suggesting, but because the alternative is making unjustified assumptions--which, incidentally, is where I'd put your "shifting requires a form of telepathy". The shifting could take place reflexively, like a chameleon blending into its background. The MiTD would not necessarily need to be consciously aware of the thoughts of its viewer, or read minds, or anything like that for such a process to take place. Hence, I said I didn't think telepathy was necessary, at least in the traditional sense. As for whether the hypothetical shifting would work off of fears or something else, again, I'm open to multiple possibilities here. Fears is an obvious candidate, but something like "mirroring what's in the viewer's heart" (whether directly fear-inducing or not) is intriguing as well.



No, it really wouldn't. You've constructed this scenario to explain why the SBGH were surprised to find a talking animal and RC wasn't.
Actually, it's more than that. There are at least two significant discrepancies between the SBGHs' encounter and Redcloak's.

1. Redcloak believes the MiTD is a powerful monster that could easily kill its captors and escape its bondage. The SBGHs believe its something for which a steak and a box are sufficient to subdue and capture it. These expectations do not mesh well if they're both identifying it as the same kind of creature.

2. The SBGHs are very surprised that the MiTD talks. Redcloak seems completely unfazed by that fact, despite being sure he knows what it is. Those reactions also don't mesh well if they're both identifying it as the same creature. This is compounded by the fact that Redcloak makes a point to address his other subverted expectations (why aren't you killing your captors and escaping like I'd have assumed you would, given what you are?) yet gives no indication that he finds it strange to converse with such a creature in the first place.

These differences are why I think it's worth considering that, actually, they aren't both identifiying it as the same thing. Could the SBGHs just be lampshading that the MiTD shouldn't be talking? Maybe, but that still wouldn't account for the rest of the tension. It could be a more subtle clue than the obvious.



Where I interpret that as a very clear lampshade, which by definition is an author's way of pointing out a plothole so he can move on without explaining it and without ever having to worry about it again, you need to posit this strange shifting creature with variable rules and undefined abilities that matches nothing I've ever heard of.
This is pretty much a non-sequitur, because what we (think we) know about the MiTD's attributes doesn't match anything we've ever heard of. We have yet to find a candidate without problems fitting with some of the evidence, which is one reason why it's so important to question whether there are other ways to interpret the evidence we do have. Singling out some speculation for censure on those grounds, then, is pretty ad hoc.



Yes, shifting would account for the reactions in the circus - it is how the protean explains it, after all - but it is by no means a requirement. You cannot use this to discard any ugly creature, because extremely ugly creatures can cause vomit. And you cannot use RC's lack of surprise to discard anything because for all you say, I remain utterly unconvinced that he must display the emotion. There are reasons to think he wasn't particularly surprised, and there are reasons to think he might have been surprised, and just not been shown in the comic. For example: he watches MitD stand there, shifting or whatever else he does, curtains close and bearded lady comes out. Uninterested, he turns to his older nephew and asks, "and that thing talks?" "Sure. In fact, once you get him started the problem is making him shut up." "Huh, weird. OK". At that point RC has seen the creature, and has an adult's word on it, and sincerely, I don't see why he'd need to be "oh, gosh, I'm so surprised".
I'm not discarding anything--as I've said, this is a possible alternative explanation. And again, you're making two mistakes: (A) Equating "Gosh I'm so surprised" displays of emotion with simply reacting consistently with subverted expectations (they aren't the same); (B) thinking that "an adult's word" should be enough to settle the matter when the adult in question doesn't have any special knowledge. The older nephew saying "Oh yeah, it talks all the time" does nothing to lessen the surprise of it talking in the first place if, indeed, it shouldn't be talking. It's not like Redcloak's going to say "Wow, from everything I know this thing shouldn't be talking, but my nephew says it talks, so I don't wonder why it does anymore." The fact that it talks does nothing to answer a question of why it talks, and Redcloak should be interested in the latter regardless of who tells him the former.




-------ooOoo-------

@Holy Knight's Shifter Argument

I keep thinking about this, and I get the faint suspicion we are talking past each other, so I'm going to go ahead and explain what I understand your position to be, and remove all the side arguments that have been cropping up that are obscuring the issue (for example, whether or not "horrible" means "ugly" in the context of the circus scene is neither here nor there).

I've put comments in square brackets on the points I'm currently confused about.
Sounds good. I've suspected we might be talking past each other somewhat too, at times.



If I understand you correctly, you are saying that:
1) MitD must/might [delete whichever is inappropriate] a shifter
2) The shifter shows itself differently to the SBGH and RC. The SBGH see a valuable creature that shouldn't talk. RC recognises it as a shifter.
3) The shifter is appropriate for the circus because with large crowds it shifts uncontrollably, causing the reactions of disgust [how do you explain the beautiful comment?]
4) The shifter changes depending on some characteristic of the watcher [which one, or do you understand that several could work?]
5) RC was definitely not surprised to see MitD talk [as you know, this is where I disagree most vehemently with you; I do not see it anywhere near as clear cut], or otherwise he'd have asked him about it during the escape scene.

Correct? Any point I am missing?


-------ooOoo-------



Let's see:

1) MitD must/might be a shifter

--This is a potential alternative explanation for some of the evidence, which I think is worth exploring. Not something I see as established or required.

2) The shifter shows itself appears differently to the SBGH and RC. The SBGH see a valuable creature that shouldn't talk. RC recognises it as a shifter.

--Basically yes, but I prefer "appears" to "shows itself" because the latter connotes something active, whereas the former is consistent with either that or a more passive phenomenon.

3) The shifter is possibly appropriate for the circus because with large crowds it shifts uncontrollably, continuously, or frequently, causing the reactions of disgust [how do you explain the beautiful comment?]

--Certain types of shifting could account for things like disgust and nausea, but also a kind of beauty if there were a pattern or "visual harmony" in them.

4) The shifter may likely change depending on some characteristic of the watcher [which one, or do you understand that several could work?]

--Yes, and not only do I understand that, I'm open to multiple ones, not being vague for vagueness' sake like you seemed to imply before.

5) RC was definitely probably not surprised to see MitD talk [as you know, this is where I disagree most vehemently with you; I do not see it anywhere near as clear cut], or otherwise he'd have asked him about it during the escape scene. while he was asking him about other ways the MiTD didn't fit his expectations.

--Also, Redcloak has a compelling reason to be sure what he's dealing with given his intentions for using the monster; leaving a detail like "displays behavior it shouldn't given what it is" unresolved seems unlikely, foolish, and uncharacteristic of Redcloak.

--HK

[Arbitrarious]

(emphasis mine)

In the last 7 pages I've had to direct people to the first post far more times that I thought would have been possible given the name of the thread. And yet here we have conclusive proof of yet another poster who gave it only the lightest of reads. My patience is at an end. Others can discuss with you if they want, but at this point your idea is at best splitting hairs, and only vaguely related to MitD. If you want to think Divine power source is equal to Arcana, do so. I will not talk to you again.

Grey Wolf

I have no idea why you are assuming this tone. I am not launching some form of attack. I am proposing something and stating my opinions on it. When a point is brought against my argument I am simply counter pointing. I don't believe I have said anything untrue or nonconstructive. And while I believe divine magic shouldn't be ruled out I have stated many times that I would focus on monsters with SLAs or racial psionics as a better fit for the demonstrated abilities.

In response to you accusation, I did indeed read through the first posts. If you are referring to the following:



Difficulties with the teleportation spell can be waved away by Plot Requirement, or by suggesting MitD's box has a Dimensional Anchor (which can be read to not stop the spell, only the caster). Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)

The reason I'm was not convinced teleport was viable is that plane shift, unlike teleport, specifies that you may target another creature and that you do not need to travel with it. I do not feel that "Plot Requirements" is a useful limiter as it is so broad and could just as easily be applied to anything. The dimensional anchor may work, but maybe not. I feel that is somewhat dodgy RAI vs RAW even if it seems solid from a mechanical standpoint. It does lead one to ask "why is the box anchored to begin with?" especially since it is unstated in the comic. Which, if true, may be a clue unto itself.

In any case. I'm sorry if something I wrote offended you or if my tone was somehow inappropriate. My intent was to pursue a line of thinking that may have been overlooked and I was stating my reasons for doing so. I was not acting with the intent to inflame. Again I apologize for any offense.

[Qwertystop]

I just want to say: In the latest comic, we find out that Plane Shift, in the OOTSverse, might technically be targetable, but very difficult. That would mean that having a very high (spellcraft modifier/caster level/etc) would allow bypassing of the random-landing-point, or at least shrinkage of the area. At least, that's how those kinds of chaining-crazy-things-together metaphors are usually used in my experience: Very difficult, but possible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Let's see:

1) MitD must/might be a shifter

--This is a potential alternative explanation for some of the evidence, which I think is worth exploring. Not something I see as established or required.

2) The shifter shows itself appears differently to the SBGH and RC. The SBGH see a valuable creature that shouldn't talk. RC recognises it as a shifter.

--Basically yes, but I prefer "appears" to "shows itself" because the latter connotes something active, whereas the former is consistent with either that or a more passive phenomenon.

3) The shifter is possibly appropriate for the circus because with large crowds it shifts uncontrollably, continuously, or frequently, causing the reactions of disgust [how do you explain the beautiful comment?]

--Certain types of shifting could account for things like disgust and nausea, but also a kind of beauty if there were a pattern or "visual harmony" in them.

4) The shifter may likely change depending on some characteristic of the watcher [which one, or do you understand that several could work?]

--Yes, and not only do I understand that, I'm open to multiple ones, not being vague for vagueness' sake like you seemed to imply before.

5) RC was definitely probably not surprised to see MitD talk [as you know, this is where I disagree most vehemently with you; I do not see it anywhere near as clear cut], or otherwise he'd have asked him about it during the escape scene. while he was asking him about other ways the MiTD didn't fit his expectations.

--Also, Redcloak has a compelling reason to be sure what he's dealing with given his intentions for using the monster; leaving a detail like "displays behavior it shouldn't given what it is" unresolved seems unlikely, foolish, and uncharacteristic of Redcloak.

--HK

I suspect that if I take out the magnifying glass I could find something to object in your post, but these points are fine, so I'm not going to try. I still think it is far-fetched without a creature attached, but that is likely a difference in the approach - I like to be able to associate such arguments to an example.


In response to you accusation, I did indeed read through the first posts. If you are referring to the following:

No, I'm referring to section 1b - The Escape, where 4 different examples of teleportation without touching are listed. Thus your assertion* that such thing had never been shown in-comic was not only showing lack of knowledge of the canon (admissible, since it's a hard detail to catch unless looking for it), but far worse, that you skipped the section describing the exact property we were discussing.

Edit:

I just want to say: In the latest comic, we find out that Plane Shift, in the OOTSverse, might technically be targetable, but very difficult. That would mean that having a very high (spellcraft modifier/caster level/etc) would allow bypassing of the random-landing-point, or at least shrinkage of the area. At least, that's how those kinds of chaining-crazy-things-together metaphors are usually used in my experience: Very difficult, but possible.

Actually, the biggest problem isn't the aim. It's the fact that they must end in a different plane. Presumably, if "they ended in the Southern Gods' Realm" is true, the Gods would be able to Miracle them back with perfect aim. But they have never mentioned a stop on the way or getting help to come back (and V can't do it hirself, it seems, since they need Durkon to get hir back).

Grey Wolf

*"You can teleport without touching the target [...] I don't think an exception has been shown in comic"

[Wolfe]

[Regarding Plane Shift] Actually, the biggest problem isn't the aim. [...] (and V can't do it hirself, it seems, since they need Durkon to get hir back).

The fact that Plane Shift is hard to aim is listed in the spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm); no amount of spellcraft/level/whatever modifier would negate their arrival to "between 5 and 500 miles" of their intended target. A perfect roll would still land them five miles away.

Also, correct: V can't cast it. It's a Conjuration (Teleportation) spell, which we know is one of her barred schools.

[Irish Musician]

Thread bump to show Wolfe's comment.

[MyNameIsSecret]

Thought I must just mention this in passing...

In the section 'light-hearted ideas', there is a joke-theory that the MitD is a fanboy, with a surprising amount of evidence.


Truly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.

Well, I was thinking about how well this all fitted, when I was reading SoD and I saw something. On page 84, panel 1 - the circus scene, the panel is shown from the view of MitD, looking out from the stage. As such, it seems almost as if the spectators are making their comments (I've never seen anything like it!) at US, and WE are the MitD. Considering that the reader is often a fanboy, it was a bit of coincidence... or was it?

:elan: Dunh dunh dunnnhh!

I know that idea isn't suppost to be taken seriously, (and I highly doubt it is actually going to turn out to be the truth), but I thought I'd just mention it. :smalltongue:

[Dracule Mihawk]

A pair of questions about MitD.

Could we say that he has eyebrows (shown in multiple strips) or that would be just an artistic license to make him show emotions, no matter if he has eyebrows or not?

The other is, Cloister targets an area and targets any person or creature inside it. We know O-Chul is targeted. How is it that he could be teleported? Does Cloister prevent its targets from teleporting too? If that were the case, wouldn't it mean that the escape was done by epic means, as those are the only way to bypass Cloister's effects?

[Wolfe]

Cloister only prevents you from teleporting in, teleporting out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) is not a problem.

[Dracule Mihawk]

Cloister only prevents you from teleporting in, teleporting out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) is not a problem.

IN the area. I was talking about individuals, as they are targeted too (just like they can't be scryed even out of the area until the effect is gone). But it doesn't matter, I've remembered that Redcloak used Word Of Recall quite recently, and I suppose that Lirian teleported out too.

Anyway, what about the eyebrows?

[CloakedDancer]

No, I'm referring to section 1b - The Escape, where 4 different examples of teleportation without touching are listed. Thus your assertion* that such thing had never been shown in-comic was not only showing lack of knowledge of the canon (admissible, since it's a hard detail to catch unless looking for it), but far worse, that you skipped the section describing the exact property we were discussing.

*"You can teleport without touching the target [...] I don't think an exception has been shown in comic"

To be fair: I've read the first post numerous times and it took me a little bit to find the section you were referring to, mostly because the section on the escape doesn't specifically refer to teleporting without touching the target. I finally clicked on the examples and realized that they showed you the scenes where teleport has happened without the caster touching the target. Granted, I already remembered that teleport worked as such in the OotSverse before looking it up. But still. Just wanted to mention.


Could we say that he has eyebrows (shown in multiple strips) or that would be just an artistic license to make him show emotions, no matter if he has eyebrows or not?


Anyway, what about the eyebrows?

Fairly certain this is just artistic license to convey emotion. Not that it would be impossible to convey emotion with just eyes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) But I'm pretty sure the eyebrows make it easier.

[Spacewolf]

I was reading up abit on the aboleth idea and was wondering if anyone had the details for the stygian aboleth from the lords of madness book, admittedly this was 2005 release but since 2004 is the cut of date some details could have been leaked

[Crusher]

To be fair: I've read the first post numerous times and it took me a little bit to find the section you were referring to, mostly because the section on the escape doesn't specifically refer to teleporting without touching the target. I finally clicked on the examples and realized that they showed you the scenes where teleport has happened without the caster touching the target. Granted, I already remembered that teleport worked as such in the OotSverse before looking it up. But still. Just wanted to mention.




Fairly certain this is just artistic license to convey emotion. Not that it would be impossible to convey emotion with just eyes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) But I'm pretty sure the eyebrows make it easier.

Can you link an example of MITD having eyebrows?

Has Xykon ever been drawn with eyebrows? Post-lich-dom, obviously.

[Gift Jeraff]

Can you link an example of MITD having eyebrows?

Has Xykon ever been drawn with eyebrows? Post-lich-dom, obviously.Whenever he does :smallconfused:, :smallannoyed:, :smallmad:, and :smallfrown: it shows. Most recently is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). Lich!Xykon does not have eyebrows, and when he does the sad face it looks like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html).