[PF] The Dancing Gunner

[ArcGygas]

So, I was recently reading through Ultimate Combat and at the Dervish Dancer (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/bard.html#dervish-dancer-(archetype)). It's a fairly fun archetype, a more combat oriented Bard.

However, reading through its abilities, a realization occurred. It doesn't mention melee attacks, just attacks. And the Dervish Dancer's capstone ability lets you make a number of attacks up to your level at every target in range, every time you move. So, with Rapid Reload, a one-handed firearm, and alchemical cartridges, you could get 20 shots a round. At full BAB.

So, let me ask; 1) Does this actually work? B) If not, is there a way to get it to work? And 3) Does the Dervish Dancer's capstone actually give you the capability to land up to 20 attacks on one poor shmuck?

[Benly]

So, I was recently reading through Ultimate Combat and at the Dervish Dancer (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/bard.html#dervish-dancer-(archetype)). It's a fairly fun archetype, a more combat oriented Bard.

However, reading through its abilities, a realization occurred. It doesn't mention melee attacks, just attacks. And the Dervish Dancer's capstone ability lets you make a number of attacks up to your level at every target in range, every time you move. So, with Rapid Reload, a one-handed firearm, and alchemical cartridges, you could get 20 shots a round. At full BAB.

So, let me ask; 1) Does this actually work? B) If not, is there a way to get it to work? And 3) Does the Dervish Dancer's capstone actually give you the capability to land up to 20 attacks on one poor shmuck?

It doesn't work quite like you think, but you're in the neighborhood of something that works.

The text is "As a full-round action, he can take a single move action and unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target within his reach during any point of his move, up to a maximum number of attacks equal to the dervish dancer's character level."

So first and most obviously, "a single attack at his highest bonus against each target" means that the answer to question 3 is "no". You get one attack against each target, not a pile of attacks against one target.

Question 1 is a little trickier. The thing is, it's each target within reach, not within range. A pistol doesn't give you reach, so the bard's reach in the case you describe would be either his default racial reach (5' for humans) or that of a melee weapon he's wielding if that's greater.

However, there is something that sort of works: you're right that it doesn't say it has to be a melee attack. If you wanted to, you could wield a pistol in one hand and a whip in the other, go on your little dancing spree, and use the pistol to shoot everyone who passes within whip's reach. (Well, assuming you somehow got a third hand to reload the pistol with.) So there's that.

[Crasical]

However, there is something that sort of works: you're right that it doesn't say it has to be a melee attack. If you wanted to, you could wield a pistol in one hand and a whip in the other, go on your little dancing spree, and use the pistol to shoot everyone who passes within whip's reach. (Well, assuming you somehow got a third hand to reload the pistol with.) So there's that.

Or get Deft Shootist and just move adjacent to your enemy before blasting them.

[Benly]

Or get Deft Shootist and just move adjacent to your enemy before blasting them.

The point of the whip is to squeeze more attacks out of Battle Fury. "Move your speed and attack everyone you pass within 15' of" is likely to get you more shots than "move your speed and attack everyone you move adjacent to".

[Crasical]

Your math is off.
As you yourself noted, it's not possible to reload your gun one handed, therefore you get two shots maximum.

Assuming the number of enemies to target is greater than 2, just moving adjacent and shooting is better. :smalltongue:

[Benly]

Your math is off.
As you yourself noted, it's not possible to reload your gun one handed, therefore you get two shots maximum.

Assuming the number of enemies to target is greater than 2, just moving adjacent and shooting is better. :smalltongue:

I did specify that this only works if you have some way of reloading the gun, yes. I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be.

Also, Battle Fury explicitly still provokes AoOs from running around, so Deft Shooter is only going to matter if you're fighting enemies with Combat Reflexes. Otherwise they'll be taking their AoO as you run past and won't have one left to whack you for shooting them and reloading anyway.

[Curious]

-Snip-

I don't think that is correct. Look at the text of the ability:


At 20th level, the dervish dancer can unleash a whirlwind of blows while performing a battle dance. As a full-round action, he can take a single move action and unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target within his reach during any point of his move, up to a maximum number of attacks equal to the dervish dancer’s character level. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

It does not actually specify that you can attack an enemy only once, just that you can make a single attack against an enemy within your reach at any point in your movement. That means that in order to attack an enemy more than once, you would have to move in circles around him, or at least zig-zag back and forth if you were using ranged weapons.

[radionausea]

"unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target" is the key

[Curious]

"unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target" is the key

It would be, if it weren't for the qualifier, 'within his reach during any point of his move.' That bit of text allows for multiple attacks against a single enemy, as long as you are not in the same space when you make each attack.

[Benly]

It would be, if it weren't for the qualifier, 'within his reach during any point of his move.' That bit of text allows for multiple attacks against a single enemy, as long as you are not in the same space when you make each attack.

I'm not sure how you're reading this as undoing the "single attack against each target" part. It's not a qualifier, it's a whole phrase: a single attack is made against each target that is within his reach during any point of his move. There are two ways I can see to break that down:

1: "Unleash a single attack against each (target that is within his reach during any point of his move)". Determine what constitutes a target that is within his reach during any point of his move, and unleash an attack against each of them.

2: "(Unleash a single attack against each target that is within his reach) during any point of his move". Choose a point during his move. Then unleash a single attack against each target within reach at that point. Considerably less useful and you're still not spamming attacks against one target.

How do you get past the "single attack" in your breakdown of that sentence?

[Curious]

I'm not sure how you're reading this as undoing the "single attack against each target" part. It's not a qualifier, it's a whole phrase: a single attack is made against each target that is within his reach during any point of his move. There are two ways I can see to break that down:

1: "Unleash a single attack against each (target that is within his reach during any point of his move)". Determine what constitutes a target that is within his reach during any point of his move, and unleash an attack against each of them.

2: "(Unleash a single attack against each target that is within his reach) during any point of his move". Choose a point during his move. Then unleash a single attack against each target within reach at that point. Considerably less useful and you're still not spamming attacks against one target.

How do you get past the "single attack" in your breakdown of that sentence?


As a full-round action, he can take a single move action and unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target within his reach during any point of his move, up to a maximum number of attacks equal to the dervish dancer’s character level.

It never actually states that he can only make a single attack against each enemy. It states that he can make a single attack against each enemy within reach, during any point in his move. That does not preclude moving to another space and making another attack against the same enemy, since you are now at a different point in your movement.

[Lord.Sorasen]

It never actually states that he can only make a single attack against each enemy. It states that he can make a single attack against each enemy within reach, during any point in his move. That does not preclude moving to another space and making another attack against the same enemy, since you are now at a different point in your movement.

If you want to play it that RAW, then it states that you can make a single attack. This means that you can pick any point within your move to make this single attack against all targets, but once you've done that you don't get to do it again. The key wording is any rather than each.

[Curious]

If you want to play it that RAW, then it states that you can make a single attack. This means that you can pick any point within your move to make this single attack against all targets, but once you've done that you don't get to do it again. The key wording is any rather than each.

Yes. And? The difference between using that ruling and the my ruling is that my ruling helps the player, whereas that one screws them over.

[Benly]

So by your ruling he gets infinite attacks against each target because his movement is divisible into an infinite number of discrete points.

Okay then.

[Curious]

So by your ruling he gets infinite attacks against each target because his movement is divisible into an infinite number of discrete points.

Okay then.

Er, no. A point in movement is a five-foot square, so every five feet.

[Benly]

Er, no. A point in movement is a five-foot square, so every five feet.

That's cool. Can you link me to the citation for that, or tell me what page to look on? Because unless the rulebooks actually give that definition, when working out what an ability does as written I'm stuck using what the words actually mean.

I mean, if you want to rule that in your game this ability lets you run in a circle around someone and hit him twenty times (assuming you have 100' movement, anyway) then great, it's certainly not the silliest thing level 20 characters could be doing. The thing is, the OP asked about the ability as written.

[Curious]

That's cool. Can you link me to the citation for that, or tell me what page to look on? Because unless the rulebooks actually give that definition, when working out what an ability does as written I'm stuck using what the words actually mean.

I mean, if you want to rule that in your game this ability lets you run in a circle around someone and hit him twenty times (assuming you have 100' movement, anyway) then great, it's certainly not the silliest thing level 20 characters could be doing. The thing is, the OP asked about the ability as written.

Well, the ability as written allows you to make a single attack against every enemy within reach, once. So you might not want to use that.

As for movement, you can't actually move less than 5 feet. That's how movement is measured, so that's how a 'point' during movement is established.

Citation: Movement. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement) Tactical Movement.

[Benly]

Well, the ability as written allows you to make a single attack against every enemy within reach, once. So you might not want to use that.

As I said, there are two readings for how it is as-written. One is, as you note, Whirlwind Attack. The other is that you move, and everyone who passes within your reach gets hit once.


As for movement, you can't actually move less than 5 feet. That's how movement is measured, so that's how a 'point' during movement is established.

Citation: Movement. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement) Tactical Movement.

It doesn't define a point of movement or a "single point within movement" anywhere on that page.

I get where you're coming from, honestly, but the thing is that you're making up terminology to change what it says to what you think it would be cool for this ability to do.

[Curious]

It doesn't define a point of movement or a "single point within movement" anywhere on that page.

I get where you're coming from, honestly, but the thing is that you're making up terminology to change what it says to what you think it would be cool for this ability to do.

No, I'm not. Dervish Dancer says-

-unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target within his reach during any point of his move-
Absent any further description of a 'point' of movement, I assume that it is based around tactical movement, which is measured in five foot squares. Thus, a 'point' of movement is the time when you enter a new five foot square.

I have not invented any terminology, I am simply stating RAW.

[Benly]

Absent any further description of a 'point' of movement, I assume that it is based around tactical movement, which is measured in five foot squares. Thus, a 'point' of movement is the time when you enter a new five foot square.

I have not invented any terminology, I am simply stating RAW.

Except that there is the actual English usage of "at any point during", which you have chosen to ignore in favor of deciding that this is a technical term specific to the rules, which the rules having forgotten to define, you then infer to mean what you want it to.

I'm pretty sure at this point nothing's going to convince you, though. The OP asked what the power did as written, I answered, I'm pretty much done unless the OP has further questions.

[Curious]

Except that there is the actual English usage of "at any point during", which you have chosen to ignore in favor of deciding that this is a technical term specific to the rules, which the rules having forgotten to define, you then infer to mean what you want it to.

I'm pretty sure at this point nothing's going to convince you, though. The OP asked what the power did as written, I answered, I'm pretty much done unless the OP has further questions.

Actual english has nothing to do with this; it's RAW. :smalltongue:

Also, I'm not certain of what you are trying to convince me. I am simply stating the rules as clearly as I can understand them.

[Cieyrin]

Or get Deft Shootist and just move adjacent to your enemy before blasting them.

I assume you meant Snap Shot and not Deft Shootist, though Deft Shootist certainly helps someone using Snap Shot with firearms. The other problem is the build requires going Bard 20, so he has no grit without Amateur Gunslinger thrown in to actually power Deft Shootist.

I'm also not sure where there is a reloading problem, as the proposed build only talks about one firearm, so the other hand should be free to reload. The bigger problem is making sure you don't misfire, as, on average, you're going to roll a 1 or 2, which is enough to misfire a regular pistol with a paper cartridge, so make sure your gun is Greater Reliable, which should be easy at 20th.

Also, the whip has 2 problems: a) the Dervish Dancer doesn't have proficiency with whips, since they trade it out with rapiers for proficiency scimitar and kukri and b) whips don't threaten without Improved Whip Mastery.

On a final note, it's hard to follow this thread between you two, Benly and Curious. All I see are Ethereal Filchers. :smalltongue:

[Benly]

I'm also not sure where there is a reloading problem, as the proposed build only talks about one firearm, so the other hand should be free to reload. The bigger problem is making sure you don't misfire, as, on average, you're going to roll a 1 or 2, which is enough to misfire a regular pistol with a paper cartridge, so make sure your gun is Greater Reliable, which should be easy at 20th.

Also, the whip has 2 problems: a) the Dervish Dancer doesn't have proficiency with whips, since they trade it out with rapiers for proficiency scimitar and kukri and b) whips don't threaten without Improved Whip Mastery.

The reloading is if you're offhanding a whip or other source of reach. Also, the Dervish Dancer doesn't attack within your threatened area, it attacks within your reach, which a whip does provide.

[Cieyrin]

The reloading is if you're offhanding a whip or other source of reach. Also, the Dervish Dancer doesn't attack within your threatened area, it attacks within your reach, which a whip does provide.

Still doesn't change the fact that Dervish Dancers aren't proficient with whips. Again, they trade the proficiency out with Rapiers for Scimitars and Kukris. Not to mention that your whip won't do any damage against most opponents, as everybody you fight will most likely have at least an +1 armor bonus to AC or +3 natural armor bonus. Congrats that you can hit them but its mostly a wasted effort.

[Benly]

Still doesn't change the fact that Dervish Dancers aren't proficient with whips. Again, they trade the proficiency out with Rapiers for Scimitars and Kukris. Not to mention that your whip won't do any damage against most opponents, as everybody you fight will most likely have at least an +1 armor bonus to AC or +3 natural armor bonus. Congrats that you can hit them but its mostly a wasted effort.

That was the point of the "whip in one hand, gun in the other": as the OP pointed out, the Dervish's attacks don't have to be melee attacks, they just have to be within reach. The point is that you use the whip to get the reach but make all the attacks with the pistol - again, assuming you have some way of reloading the pistol with your off hand occupied. This way you are making pistol attacks against everyone within 15' of your movement instead of only people you pass adjacent to. You don't even need whip proficiency, because the whip grants reach whether you are proficient or not and the nonproficiency penalty is irrelevant as you are not actually attacking with it.