Scrying where art thou?

[Mandrake]

A wizard swore revenge against PCs after escaping.
Now how can he locate them? There are rituals labeled as "scrying" even in PHB, but they're all really high level and imprecise or plain useless. What are the means for this heroic tier villain (like level 8 maybe) to find these heroes and lay some waste?

I'd like it to be "by the book" if possible and as badass as possible, though not necessary.

[Ashdate]

You're not going to find much by the book at that level.

So turn your BBEG into an shadow illusionist who swapped places with an illusionary image of himself before "escaping". He's spent the time since then hiding in your PCs' shadow, healing himself off their healing surges. Every time they take an extended rest, scratch a healing surge off of all of them. He stays hidden until they're about to grab the MacGuffin they've gone to protect from the BEEG, and BAM he pops out and steals it from under their noses.

Basically, just fluff it. If they ask what book that ritual is, tell them it's from the book of "You just lost a healing surge mister!"

[DeltaEmil]

A wizard swore revenge against PCs after escaping.
Now how can he locate them? There are rituals labeled as "scrying" even in PHB, but they're all really high level and imprecise or plain useless. What are the means for this heroic tier villain (like level 8 maybe) to find these heroes and lay some waste?

I'd like it to be "by the book" if possible and as badass as possible, though not necessary.Let him use dominated animals serving as spies (the magically controlled crow following the party) and hired trackers and mercenaries. It's okay for heroic-tier enemy wizards having to mostly rely on mundane sources.

[Drglenn]

Plot [/thread]

But on a more serious note: use more mundane means, also the animal messenger ritual could always be fluffed to do the reverse, (i.e. the animal comes and tells the BBEG where the party is instead of sending a message) maybe call it "X's Animal Spy" or something like that (X being replaced with the name of your BBEG).
In other news a cat familiar can go an unlimited distance from its master, gets +5 to stealth and with the right abilities (which you can just say the BBEG has) you can see through its eyes. It even says in their description that cat familiars make excellent spies

[Kurald Galain]

What are the means for this heroic tier villain (like level 8 maybe) to find these heroes and lay some waste?

Streetwise checks. PCs tend to attract attention to themselves.

If you must involve rituals, then there's a ritual that makes a streetwise check for you.

[Akodo Makama]

I'd like it to be "by the book" if possible

Bad guys don't go "by the book". That's why they're the "bad guys". If they went "by the book" it'd be too easy for some unlikely group of surprisingly well-armed, homicidal, kleptomaniac hobos from disparate and incompatible backgrounds to stop them.

[Leolo]

A wizard swore revenge against PCs after escaping.
Now how can he locate them? There are rituals labeled as "scrying" even in PHB, but they're all really high level and imprecise or plain useless. What are the means for this heroic tier villain (like level 8 maybe) to find these heroes and lay some waste?

I'd like it to be "by the book" if possible and as badass as possible, though not necessary.

The best ritual for this would be likely magic map. It is a heroic tier ritual, and you can find someone with it within 10 minutes in a 50x50 miles area. You'd need some object that is tied to the character, though. For example some hair or similar things. Maybe your wizard has injured some player character, so that he could use his blood? Problem with this: It is (compared with the other options) expensive.

If you have enough time and don't worry about the possible case that the players notice someone is searching for them streetwise checks would be cheaper. The seek rumor ritual would be better than streetwise, because you get better results and it is twice as fast. (Plus you do not have to walk into some dirty taverns and ask for some guys)

Hunter's blessing could be used if the players have left tracks. It lets you use arcana for tracking for 24 hours.

[Oracle_Hunter]

A wizard swore revenge against PCs after escaping.
Now how can he locate them? There are rituals labeled as "scrying" even in PHB, but they're all really high level and imprecise or plain useless. What are the means for this heroic tier villain (like level 8 maybe) to find these heroes and lay some waste?

I'd like it to be "by the book" if possible and as badass as possible, though not necessary.
...hire adventurers to track them down? Set a trap he'll know they'll walk into ("Mysterious gentleman wishes to hire adventurers for quest. Inquire at the local tavern")? Use Rituals to learn more about them, and then strike at what they love most while they're out killing dragons?

C'mon, the world is your vengeance-filled oyster! :smallbiggrin:

[quillbreaker]

One thing about 3.5 I always hated was the spell intelligence war - the necessary range of mystical defenses that a foe had to have to keep a mid to high level level wizard from killing him within one round of knowing who he is. You can develop entire fourth edition adventures in the time that it takes to set up a single 3.5 BBEG's defenses.

Go for a narrative solution over a mystical solution, as others have said. It's more fun. Have the evil wizard send someone to hire them to jump into a trap.

You also sound like you have your hands on a good complication. If the information were to fall into the player's hands that they are being hunted, you can set up scenes where the players have to avoid being caught while chasing after their next goal.

[Leolo]

I think you are right that such a chase should be something that adds to the fun of the players.

But rituals and the like are part of the game, and it could be more plausible that the evil wizard uses a spell to find someone rather than involving one of the people arround. If the answer on the question: "Oh no, it is Evildark the black wizard! How has he found us?" is "Uhm, he asked someone" this might annoy your players that could feel railroaded. If they find a magic map that shows their position they may try this the next time by themself, and have a good explanation why the evil guy found them.

[LaZodiac]

Or...you could just say that he has a scrying tool of some sort. Need him to scry? He has the ability to scry.

[Leolo]

Yeah, but the thread opener said he'd prefer solutions that already exist by the book.

Plus a scrying pool might be to expensive as loot for the players.

[LaZodiac]

Ahh, right, I missed that. My bad.

[Oracle_Hunter]

But rituals and the like are part of the game, and it could be more plausible that the evil wizard uses a spell to find someone rather than involving one of the people arround. If the answer on the question: "Oh no, it is Evildark the black wizard! How has he found us?" is "Uhm, he asked someone" this might annoy your players that could feel railroaded. If they find a magic map that shows their position they may try this the next time by themself, and have a good explanation why the evil guy found them.
I dunno, is "he used magic" any better? Particularly if the Players know that RAW Scrying in 4e is weaksauce and there's nothing they can use to avoid it? At least if there are people going after them the PCs can take reasonable measures such as going into the wilderness, keeping a low profile, setting up a trap for the tail, etc.

Not everything needs to be about magic. Even wizards sometimes hire people to get things done.

[Kurald Galain]

Depends on what the PCs are doing. If they have recently blown up the local thief guild, spent hundreds of goldpieces on a grand alefest, and/or got lauded by the king for their defeat of the evil troglodytes, then yeah, people will know where to find them. Nothing illogical about it; the PCs own deeds put them in the spotlight. Actions have consequences, after all.

[STsinderman]

If you are dead set on the use of scrying, could he perhaps call on the aid of an old friend from the college who is of a higher level. Or perhaps the one he works for has the adequate resources to have a high level npc do it.

[INDYSTAR188]

Maybe he has a network of informants connected through the use of Sending Stones? That way you get to incorporate magic, it doesn't feel over powered, and he is still able to keep tabs on the PC's. Also, streetwise checks and Animal Messengers could be used by the network of informants just to explain how they are keeping track of the PC's for the BBEG.

[Reluctance]

If the wizard does find the PCs, hurrying along to lay waste will require particular cleverness. Teleporting to a nonspecified distant location is very pointedly Epic.

You have a couple of options to make big bad wizard guy into an adventure. The first is to use low-level accessible stuff, namely a familiar and/or the Sending ritual (the latter with allies) to keep tabs on the PC. Think less spy satellites, more surveillance gear and cell phones.

The other is to use the PCs rituals against them. Have some Linked Portal destination coordinates fall into their lap. Make it look yummy. In fact, have it go somewhere that, for some plot reason, doesn't allow teleportation out of the area. (Depending on PC builds, this may or may not include any teleportation within the area period. It's a cool flavor twist, but only if it doesn't disrupt any PC primary shticks.) Cue classic villain gloating about how they'll never escape his deathtrap alive. The bonus here is that you allow the PCs to use the same trap later if they're clever, without giving them an item that can be disenchanted into disproportionate residuum.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The other is to use the PCs rituals against them. Have some Linked Portal destination coordinates fall into their lap. Make it look yummy. In fact, have it go somewhere that, for some plot reason, doesn't allow teleportation out of the area. (Depending on PC builds, this may or may not include any teleportation within the area period. It's a cool flavor twist, but only if it doesn't disrupt any PC primary shticks.) Cue classic villain gloating about how they'll never escape his deathtrap alive. The bonus here is that you allow the PCs to use the same trap later if they're clever, without giving them an item that can be disenchanted into disproportionate residuum.
That's a good one! Plus, if the coordinates actually go to some sort of dangerous place (e.g. the basement of Castle Undead) then you'll have a whole series of adventures to run :smallbiggrin:

[Leolo]

I dunno, is "he used magic" any better? Particularly if the Players know that RAW Scrying in 4e is weaksauce and there's nothing they can use to avoid it? At least if there are people going after them the PCs can take reasonable measures such as going into the wilderness, keeping a low profile, setting up a trap for the tail, etc.

Not everything needs to be about magic. Even wizards sometimes hire people to get things done.

Yes, because the players can find out what he did by themself if he uses magic. For example they could find the magic map. Or they could find some ritual books, one of them containing Hunter's blessing after the fight. That's not the case if you just judge: He has talked to the sailors in the tavern.

Also using magic needs less assumptions. For example if i would say: "he has hired a ranger to track you" the players could ask: "Wait, a ranger? I thought the creatures of the woodland has been tortured by the evil wizard?!"

So you do not have to stretch an explanation why someone is helping him, you can let him solve the task by himself. Plus - it is more badass if he uses a spell, and that's what was requested. :D

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yes, because the players can find out what he did by themself if he uses magic. For example they could find the magic map. Or they could find some ritual books, one of them containing Hunter's blessing after the fight. That's not the case if you just judge: He has talked to the sailors in the tavern.

Also using magic needs less assumptions. For example if i would say: "he has hired a ranger to track you" the players could ask: "Wait, a ranger? I thought the creatures of the woodland has been tortured by the evil wizard?!"

So you do not have to stretch an explanation why someone is helping him, you can let him solve the task by himself. Plus - it is more badass if he uses a spell, and that's what was requested. :D
:smallconfused: this is the first time I've heard "magic requires less thinking" as a reason to use it. I guess we'll have to disagree.

Re: Badass
Personally, I've always found "he hired a team of assassins to track you down and kill you" to be more badass then "he used a 5th level spell to track you down and kill you" but YMMV.

[Kurald Galain]

What exactly is stopping the PCs from also talking to the sailors in the tavern?

[Reluctance]

Also using magic needs less assumptions. For example if i would say: "he has hired a ranger to track you" the players could ask: "Wait, a ranger? I thought the creatures of the woodland has been tortured by the evil wizard?!"

Because you'd never have an evil woodsman. Never (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_white).

[Leolo]

:smallconfused: this is the first time I've heard "magic requires less thinking" as a reason to use it. I guess we'll have to disagree.

You might hear it, but it is not was has been said. ;-)

I have said magic can be a solution (from a story perspective) that needs less complicated (or streched) explanations. There is a wizard, and spells that could solve his task does exist. In fact the thread opener has explicitly asked for them. It is entirely plausible that this wizard would use some magic, that's part of his description.

That does not mean that a group of assassins wouldn't fit into such a story. In fact they could be a good choice after he has found the group.

But it means: You should think about the question where those assassins come from. Or the ranger who helps the wizard. Or if it is likely that you can find the players by asking someone in the tavern. And you should ask yourself if this is plausible and matches the previous description or if it is just constructed to let him find them. All of this is possible, but it is bad dungeonmastering to not think about it and simple judge "someone told him you are here" regardless if this makes sense in the story.

The difference between magic and such behavior is that magic is part of the game from the beginning. The players know (or at least could know) that their foes could use something like this. And could prepare themself against it. (For example by not leaving anything behind that could be used as a focus for magic map or by hiding their tracks)

It's a thin line though - if you already have established the fact that the evil wizard is working with the assassins guild this would be the more obvious choice.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I have said magic can be a solution (from a story perspective) that needs less complicated (or streched) explanations. There is a wizard, and spells that could solve his task does exist. In fact the thread opener has explicitly asked for them. It is entirely plausible that this wizard would use some magic, that's part of his description.
I mean, sure, but in 4e magic isn't supposed to always be the first response to a problem. When someone has to fix a window they'll usually go to a glazier first instead of tracking down someone who can cast Mend. Even Wizards hire folks to cook their meals instead of spending time and money casting Invisible Servant.

Additionally, a non-magic approach can actually involve the PCs. Instead of "ambush because magic found you" you can get "some guy is watching you, what do you do?" IMHO, anything that provokes more chances for adventures is a better choice when plotting D&D Campaigns.

Finally I'm not exactly sure that your definition of "less complicated" is particularly compelling. While it is true that having Wizards use magic to solve their problems requires less explanation from the DM (i.e. less thinking) that explanation need not be particularly straining. Provided that the Evil Wizard has resources sufficient to make vengeance against PCs plausible, it is not a stretch to have him track down some evil adventurers and send them after the PCs. It's not like he's pulling a dragon out of his hat :smalltongue:

[Leolo]

^^ i hope so.

Our opinions seems not that far away from each other. Maybe with more information from the threadopener this could be judged better.

But i think the best would be to combine both. Use magic to find them and to gather information (for example information about the thieves guild) and after this hunt them with the assassins.

[Mandrake]

First of all, thank you all a lot. I've read your posts on hourly basis (!) and the only reason I haven't stepped in (yet) was that I considered the discussion to be more than productive.

My prime goal was to get as much information about scrying on low levels as possible, I guess. Now I see I wasn't mistaken about how scarce it is.

Now to the problem at hand - I do owe you a more information so that you can judge what would be fitting, and to see why I brought magic to the front.

The Wizard is a Githyanki (which are rare in the campaign) and he is a servant of the recently freed Tharizdun, and he's sporting a tattoo of EEE on his evil forehead. He opened a portal into the center of the Legion Hold (good guys' HQ, also PC's base) and made a mess. PCs managed to get to the portal and close him, with Gith escaping just before it got shut, saying he'll find them and kill them. Afterwards, tomorrow, they went on a mission to report to another Legion Hold about the disaster here, traveling across mountain peaks. Gith has no way of communicating with the Legion that sent them there, cause, heh, he's obviously evil, he has no Disguise self since he fled using Invisibility (if I am mistaken here, correct me). I can hardly imagine he'd know that he'd be stopped by them (he wants revenge) and planned on sending a spy beforehand. Basically, I don't even have an idea where he is right now, the Wizard. So magic seemed fitting. Hope I didn't bore you, fire away again, lads!
*If you want to know more, there is more, just say so.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The Wizard is a Githyanki (which are rare in the campaign) and he is a servant of the recently freed Tharizdun, and he's sporting a tattoo of EEE on his evil forehead. He opened a portal into the center of the Legion Hold (good guys' HQ, also PC's base) and made a mess. PCs managed to get to the portal and close him, with Gith escaping just before it got shut, saying he'll find them and kill them. Afterwards, tomorrow, they went on a mission to report to another Legion Hold about the disaster here, traveling across mountain peaks. Gith has no way of communicating with the Legion that sent them there, cause, heh, he's obviously evil, he has no Disguise self since he fled using Invisibility (if I am mistaken here, correct me). I can hardly imagine he'd know that he'd be stopped by them (he wants revenge) and planned on sending a spy beforehand. Basically, I don't even have an idea where he is right now, the Wizard. So magic seemed fitting. Hope I didn't bore you, fire away again, lads!
*If you want to know more, there is more, just say so.
So... portals that don't go to Teleportation Circles are Paragon Tier at least. If the Wizard has access to that level of magic, he can have higher level Scrying too.

Additionally, he can use some sort of Scry to figure out the general area where the PCs are and then portal in a big ol' squad of mooks to make trouble.

...yeah, I guess we need more information about the Wizard. Portals are big deals.

[Leolo]

The Wizard is a Githyanki (which are rare in the campaign) and he is a servant of the recently freed Tharizdun, and he's sporting a tattoo of EEE on his evil forehead. He opened a portal into the center of the Legion Hold (good guys' HQ, also PC's base) and made a mess. PCs managed to get to the portal and close him, with Gith escaping just before it got shut, saying he'll find them and kill them. Afterwards, tomorrow, they went on a mission to report to another Legion Hold about the disaster here, traveling across mountain peaks. Gith has no way of communicating with the Legion that sent them there, cause, heh, he's obviously evil, he has no Disguise self since he fled using Invisibility (if I am mistaken here, correct me). I can hardly imagine he'd know that he'd be stopped by them (he wants revenge) and planned on sending a spy beforehand. Basically, I don't even have an idea where he is right now, the Wizard. So magic seemed fitting. Hope I didn't bore you, fire away again, lads!
*If you want to know more, there is more, just say so.

I think your description has some important information. First of all: There is a fish bigger than the wizard, that means you are not neccessary limited to heroic tier options. The portal could be a good hint that the wizard has also (at least some) higher level magic available. Maybe his master has given him a scroll for this?

Disguise self shouldn't be the problem, because as a (thematically) wizard it is entirely plausible that you let him use different spells than during the first encounter with him. There are potions for this, too.

So here is what i would do:

Your wizard still needs more information. Yes, he wants revenge - but wasting the expensive Portal scroll from his master could also bring him into big trouble. His attack has expended many of his ressources, so first he needs more ressources. During the next day the local merchants guild asks the players for help. Somehow they have been robbed and gold is disappeared from their well protected treasure chests. If the players investigate they found out that someone has used fool's gold to buy ritual components and magical items. The gold is not stolen, it has been just vanished. A huge amount, so that this person has now enough ressources.

As the next days pass by the players notice a bunch of thieves that wants to steal personal things from them. As mentioned above - such things are important for many scrying or divination related rituals. The thieves claim someone has promised them items (like those that has been bought by the fools gold from the merchants guild).

Try to pickpocket at least one of them, so that one personal thing is in the hands of the wizard. From now on: Scry them with magic map or similar things to find a good situation for an ambush. If you have the spell 2 times (or adjust it a little for this purpose by allowing 2 personal things as a focus) you could even find out when someone of them is alone. You could intentionally create this situation with a false message.

Ambush and catch him, and use stone shape to trap him behind walls. After this send his comrades a message. For the final fight: Prepare the battlefield! Your wizard should fly and use his paid minions that might use traps against you.

[Mandrake]

Thank you, both, again, a lot.

Actually, there is a guild portal in every Legion Hold that they use for traveling between guilds, I just sorta imagined a portal high-jack by the baddies, making a conduit between one of the "Base Evil" and Legion Hold. And, yes, the guy has bigger bosses that did the opening part.
I have two more questions - where can that sort of magic map be found (is it a magic item, is there a source?) and what is Stone Shape? Can't find it.

Looking through books I realized I had a solution right in front of me - he escaped using Invisibility and walking to the portal, intentionally flapping his feet (that's what I said to the players, they had no way of stopping him at the moment) and when he entered the portal a Whoobmb (try and imagine) sound was made. Now I'm thinking - he is still thare, that was a Ghost sound. That is not attacking, right? So, since even later on no one powerful was there (no higher than level 10 equivalent anyway), he could've stayed invisible and unnoticed for the whole duration of the meeting they had afterwards with the Legionnaires about what to do. Please comment this idea or expand your own. :wink:

[Leolo]

Magic map is a divination ritual from the arcane power sourcebook
Stone shape is a ritual from dragon magazine 405

If you do not allow your players access to dragon magazine ressources you could use things like arcane lock or simple kill the first character you ambush.

Regarding invisibility: Yes, that is possible - but note that invisibility has no infinite duration. After 5 minutes the wizard should have found a place to hide, and i doubt that he is really good. Plus the bluff roll for "i bluff them into thinking that i am gone" should have been actually rolled.

There is another point to consider: Your players have won. They have defeated him. Having him his revenge plan is fine, but this success should have consequences. So i would rather imagine the wizard beaten and angry, low on ressources but planning his revenge than imagine him to turn it into a "haha, in fact i am still here and have actually listened to all your plans while no one of you succeeded on a passive perception check"

It makes for a better story by far. That's the reason why i have let the wizard in my example rob the merchants guild. He knows it is dangerous and will possibly warn the player characters. But he is low on ressources and desperatly needs them. He has been beaten.

[Leolo]

Looks like my post is vanished...EDIT: Oh, there it is.

[Kurald Galain]

Did you just scry for your post? :smalltongue:

[Leolo]

Yes. ^^

*looks at all those burnt arcane components* That was expensive!

[Mandrake]

Wow, obvious Magic Map is obvious.

Yeah, Leolo, you're right. Since I will probably be taking your course of actions for this villain, and since I don't own/use magazines, I will probably just try to kill one of them.

Don't worry, I'll make sure to credit you the moment he starts wobbling to Letherna. :smallcool:

[Leolo]

You should note that magic map has not a really long duration for such a midlevel NPC wizard (you'd need to be higher level or have optimized on arcana to have a high enough score to let it last much longer)

So it is good for generally finding someone or checking out where they are currently, but to expensive for a midlevel character to observe a group over a longer period of time. (Even if this midlevel character has robbed the local merchants)

Although his boss could have helped him with this, or he could be some kind of optimized wizard that has an high enough arcana skill. Depends on how you build this NPC.

But your best choice is to cast it when the wizard already knows that someone is moving.

[INDYSTAR188]

Are there scrolls in 4e? If there are then maybe your BBEG got hold of one for a very powerful ritual that allows him to track the PCs. Additionally, my buddy just started a game and I'm a 2nd level Wizard so it'd be nice to know for that too :smallcool:.

[Kurald Galain]

Are there scrolls in 4e? If there are then maybe your BBEG got hold of one for a very powerful ritual that allows him to track the PCs. Additionally, my buddy just started a game and I'm a 2nd level Wizard so it'd be nice to know for that too :smallcool:.

Sure. Says so in the PHB. They're basically one-shot versions of a ritual, usable by anyone even without the Ritual Caster feat.

[INDYSTAR188]

Sure. Says so in the PHB. They're basically one-shot versions of a ritual, usable by anyone even without the Ritual Caster feat.

Can you use them to cast things like Fireball or Color Spray or do I need a Wand for that sort of thing?

[Kurald Galain]

Can you use them to cast things like Fireball or Color Spray or do I need a Wand for that sort of thing?

No, you cannot use them to cast spells.

Wands can only contain at-will or encounter powers, so Fireball is not an option. Also, most classes aren't proficient with wands, although multiclassing can fix that.

[Doug Lampert]

No, you cannot use them to cast spells.

Wands can only contain at-will or encounter powers, so Fireball is not an option. Also, most classes aren't proficient with wands, although multiclassing can fix that.

There are several spells that create balls of fire that are wandable. Just not the level 5 daily. But the at will and the level 7 encounter for instance can both go in wands.