[3.5 Class] Hyper-Skilled

[reddir]

This is my second attempt at making a class, so I am hoping for lots of feedback to make it interesting and fix any problems.

I will update as I get critiques and/or better ideas.

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Concept: A character who focuses on knowledge and skills. His main function in combat is to share his knowledge of enemy tactics & weaknesses, and to make use of magic items to support her/his team or inhibit opponents.

Basis for build: PrC:Heartwarder (Cha +1 every other level, full casting); PrC:War Hulk (Str +2 every level); Class:Factotum (ability progression, limited casting)


HYPER-SKILLED
{table=head]Level|
BAB|
Fort Save|
Ref Save|
Will Save|
Special|
Inspiration Points|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0|Inspiration, Trapfinding|
2|3|1|-

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0|+2 Int|
3|4|2|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Brains Over Brawn, Improved Synergy (+3 for 5)|
3|4|2|1|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|+2 Int, Bonus Feat:Knowledge Devotion|
3|4|3|2|-

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Precocious Personality|
4|4|3|2|1|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|+2 Int|
4|4|3|3|2|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Expert Synergy (2x norm for 10)|
4|4|4|3|2|1|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2|+2 Int|
5|4|4|3|3|2|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+3|(Enlightened Endurance?, Discerning Determination?)|
5|4|4|4|3|2|1|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|+2 Int|
5|4|4|4|3|3|2|-

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|Skill Mastery|
6|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+4|+2 Int|
6|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+4|Master Synergy (3x norm for 15)|
6|4|4|4|4|4|3|2

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|+2 Int|
7|4|4|4|4|4|3|3

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|Superior Synergy (+4 for 5)|
7|4|4|4|4|4|4|3

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+5|+2 Int|
7|4|4|4|4|4|4|3

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+5|Skill Mastery|
8|4|4|4|4|4|4|4

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|+2 Int|
8|4|4|4|4|4|4|4

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Grandmaster Synergy (4x norm for 20)|
8|4|4|4|4|4|4|4

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+6|+2 Int, Full Synergy (+5 for 5)|
10|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]

Hit Die: d4
Class Skills: all
Skill Points: 10 + Int mod each level, (x4 at first level).
Saves: each at the "Poor" progression. Allow a Hyper-Skilled to spend a feat to change a Save's basis to Int.

Class Features:
Spells: Arcane, Int-based. Only skill boost/penalty spells.The skill-based spells from the Player's Handbook and Spell Compendium are as follows - Level 0: Minor Disguise, Songbird. Level 1: Accelerated Movement, Branch to Branch, Camouflage, Climb Walls, Dead End, Disguise Self, Focusing Chant, Hawkeye, Improvisation, Insidious Rhythm, Insightful Feint, Jump, Serene Visage, Shock and Awe, Sign, Sticky Fingers, Sticky Saddle, Surefoot, Towering Oak. Level 2: Camouflage Mass, Curse of Ill Fortune, Dissonant Chant, Easy Climb, Heroism, Iron Silence, One With the Land, Wave of Grief. Level 3: Allegro, Bestow Curse, Crushing Despair, Forestfold, Glibness, Illusory Script. Level 4: Essence of the Raptor. Level 5: Curse of Ill Fortune Mass, Shadow Form
[need to add back in the Divination School spells which boost skills]
(GMs and Players may also consider the following types of spells: a) add/enhance/block senses, b) enhance/add movement types, c) enhance/diminish ability scores.)
Inspiration: Before making an attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw, you can spend 1 Inspiration Point to gain a competence bonus on the roll equal to [Int mod / 2]. You may also use Inspiration to roll twice for an ability or skill check, choosing which result to keep. You must declare this before you roll. Inspiration Points reset at the beginning of each encounter (an encounter can be combat, skill challenge, etc).
Raises to Intelligence: (retroactive SP, reconsider and learn from past exp)
Synergy Abilities: Improved/Superior/Full raise the synergy bonus gained from having 5 ranks in a synergistic skill. Expert/Master/Grandmaster extend the synergy bonus to ranks 10, 15, and 20; which give double, triple, and quadruple (respectively) the synergy bonus gained from having 5 ranks.
Bonus Feat:Knowledge Devotion: can tell any allies who are capable of hearing and understanding him, at which point they also receive some bonuses. In addition to the normal effects of Knowledge Devotion, the Hyper-Skilled helps out teammates by sharing her/his knowledge of the creatures. By pointing out a creature's sensitive anatomy, common attacks, or tricks to which it is weak, the Hyper-Skilled allows the bonus from Knowledge Devotion -1 (its not easy to convey detailed information during combat) to apply also to those teammates who are able to receive her/his instructions.
Brains Over Brawn: +Int mod to Str- and Dex- based checks, including ability checks and skill checks
Precocious Personality: +Int mod to Wis- and Cha- based checks, including ability checks and skill checks
(Enlightened Endurance?, Discerning Determination?): +Int mod to Con-based checks, including ability checks and skill checks
Skill Mastery: choose [Int mod, min 4] skills you have trained. May now "Take-10" when checking that skill, even if distracted or rushed. You may choose Use Magic Device as a skill to Master. You may take Feat:Savvy Rogue to improve this ability.

[reddir]

No one has any comment on this? Nothing good, nothing bad? Just blah?

[Anecronwashere]

Just from a cursory view:

Needs fluff
Spell List should be written out, not just "Go look in the books for whatever meets these prereqs"
Why the weird save progression? It shouldn't change as you level or it gets confusing for builders
+20 INT!!!! WHY? JUTS WHY? This makes this class an immediate must have for a 2/4 level dip or a full20 if in Gestalt/Tristalt
Skill Synergy? That breaks skills that have multiple Skill Synergies. If I'm reading this right (it is written weirdly) at lvl20 it gives +10 for every skill that synergises so Diplomacy is getting +30.
With Know Devotion, does that mean you give all alies Knowledge Devotion whenever you can talk to them?

At level20 it looks like everything that needs Cha, Wis, Str, Dex or Con gets Int added to it, which due to the +20 Int is at minimum a +10 and likely more (all ability increases go to Int for another +5).
A standard lvl20 character with this has {Stat} +{Int} +10 to everything, as well as {Int+10} again 10 times an encounter.

This is on par with a Lightning Warrior + Familiar

[reddir]

Anecronwashere, thanks for reading and critiquing :)


Needs fluff
Spell List should be written out, not just "Go look in the books for whatever meets these prereqs"
I'll get to these if the concept is found to be sound.


Why the weird save progression? It shouldn't change as you level or it gets confusing for builders
This is to reflect the changes that come as a character progresses in the class. To show that the character started with nearly no defenses but has learned over time.

An alternative might be to leave the saves at the low progression but base them off of Int?


+20 INT!!!! WHY? JUTS WHY? This makes this class an immediate must have for a 2/4 level dip or a full20 if in Gestalt/Tristalt
I don't know how to balance for Gestalt, I've never tried playing in a Gestalt game.

I don't know Tristalt, but if its anything like multi-class in AD&D, I'd like to know more - links?

Int is mostly useful for Arcane casters or skill-monkeys, I thought. I figured a 2-level dip just for a +1 to DC/etc would not be worth the spell progression loss. And anyone focused on skills could just take this class all the way through.


Skill Synergy? That breaks skills that have multiple Skill Synergies. If I'm reading this right (it is written weirdly) at lvl20 it gives +10 for every skill that synergises so Diplomacy is getting +30.
I'm not going to address Diplomacy, as I think its a broken mechanic (in a RAW game).

And....the Skill Synergies are worse than you think...

A level 20 Hyper-Skilled character adds nearly the full ranks of a synergizing skill (with break points at level 5, 10, 15, 20).

But...skills are pretty much the whole schtick of this character. Its like spell casters getting level 9 spells.


With Know Devotion, does that mean you give all alies Knowledge Devotion whenever you can talk to them?
For example, in a combat, if the Hyper-Skilled character is able apply Knowledge Devotion, then as long as s/he can clearly communicate with teammates, those teammates will also receive the boni from Knowledge Devotion.

The idea is that the Hyper-Skilled helps out teammates by sharing their knowledge of the creatures: like sensitive anatomy, common attacks to watch for, or tricks they are weak to.


At level20 it looks like everything that needs Cha, Wis, Str, Dex or Con gets Int added to it, which due to the +20 Int is at minimum a +10 and likely more (all ability increases go to Int for another +5).
A standard lvl20 character with this has {Stat} +{Int} +10 to everything, as well as {Int+10} again 10 times an encounter.
This is just to ability and skill checks. Is that so bad at level 20, assuming its pretty much all this character can do?

The Inspiration for + Int mod, 10x/encounter, is a completely separate thing that does not apply to ability or skill checks. The only way to use Inspiration for a skill check is to spend a point to roll 2x and pick the better result, not a flat bonus.


This is on par with a Lightning Warrior + Familiar
I don't know this one - link?

[Sypher667]

I don't know this one - link?

The Lightning Warrior has all good saves, full BAB, full casting, d20 hitdie (by some sources, other say d12) and is balanced because "it doesnt get a familiar"

(I may not be exactly right, but this is close enough for the idea to get across, i think)

Found here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)

[reddir]

The Lightning Warrior has all good saves, full BAB, full casting, d20 hitdie (by some sources, other say d12) and is balanced because "it doesnt get a familiar"

(I may not be exactly right, but this is close enough for the idea to get across, i think)

Found here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)



Wow O_o

I'm hoping that my Hyper-Skilled does not come across like that...

[strider24seven]

Hm... after a cursory glance, I have determined that your class is pretty op as hell.

Honestly, having 9th level spells, 10 sp/level, +20 INT, INT to all skills and ability checks (including initiative, share-able knowledge devotion (which is already boosted to hell b/c of the int boost), and skill synergies (the weakest but coolest part of the class imo), makes this class absolutely stupidly good.

You should try to trim back some of the things this class gets. For example, the factotum, on which this class seems to be based, gets a crippled spell progression and INT to only some things.

Try giving it a bard-like spell progression, taking away the INT at every other level (this makes the class broken by itself). Also, while i like the knowledge devotion thing, why don't you give it the archivist's dark knowledge ability (heroes of horror), at 4th level when you get the ability you can basically give your party +5 to hit and damage by yourself on a reliable basis. Alternatively, reword the "spells" portion of the class, because Wish, Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange are all "skill-boosting" spells as written (at least forms with racial skill bonuses, i.e. lots). Honestly, limiting the spell selection to divination only from the wiz/sorc list would solve a lot of problems. You could even keep the full wiz-like progression if you do that.

[Veklim]

Hrm, needs a fair few things IMO, I shall list off a few now!

Remove most, if not all Int boosts. +1/4 class levels would be ok if you really wanna give them a boost to Int.
Drop the altering saves weirdness, if it's that important that they improve then award them lightning reflexes, iron will and great fortitude at appropriate levels instead of messing with progressions.
Make a spell list, or just give them divinations only. You're just asking for trouble with the way it's worded right now!
Would like to see some proficiencies, unless they are meant to have none (perfectly reasonable under the circumstances) in which case you should say so.
Rank back the synergy stuff a bit and clarify what they do. It's actually a funky idea but as written it's a little vague and likely OP.
Consider changing the Knowledge Devotion sharing, not essential but way OP at the moment, shouldn't be such an issue if you nerf the Int boni massively though.
Perhaps put free skill tricks in the dead levels, these guys should definitely be doing the skill trick thing!
You may also wish to look at the teamwork routines (I think they're in PHB 2) for possible ideas on class features. It would be nice if these guys could lend a portion of their skills to the whole group in certain situations like using your ranks in hide & move silently for any group members who wish to within 30ft or somesuch.

[reddir]

I listed the spells from Player's Handbook and Spell Compendium which (in addition to all Divination spells) the Hyper-Skilled can learn.

I halved applied a -1 to the benefit team members receive from Knowledge Devotion.

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Ok, just how bad is the Int boost? I am trying to understand why people think it is overpowered, but I'm not really seeing it. Can you help me understand this?

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The 10 SP/level is because this class is supposed to become a master at skills. This is the same reason the class eventually adds Int modifier to every skill.

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I will try to think of another way to deal with the saves. Perhaps a full Poor progression but adding in 1/2 Int mod? This would keep with the flavor.

I restored the Poor progression for all the saves. I added the option to spend a feat to change a Save's basis to Int. Since Inspiration can be spent to improve a Save roll, I think this is enough.

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re Proficiencies...I am debating either simple weapons and light armor, or none at all. On the one hand, it is meant to be an adventuring class. On the other, the concept is sort of a Nerd-type, and they can always pick up proficiencies with the feats from leveling...

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re Skill Tricks, at the moment I think the class gets plenty of skill points, some of which can easily be spared to buy Skill Tricks. But if it is necessary to trim these back, I will revisit the issue.

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I am not familiar with either the Archivist's Ability:Dark Knowledge nor the PHB2 Teamwork Routines. I will need to read up.

I like Knowledge Devotion because it is based on Knowledge skills, of which this class should have at least one or two (if not all) maxed.

And I definitely want this class to be helpful to the other party members during encounters. Sharing skills, which are this class's main schtick, would be one of the best ways.

[Siosilvar]

The 10 SP/level is because this class is supposed to become a master at skills. This is the same reason the class eventually adds Int modifier to every skill.

The Rogue is a master of skills. Rogues get 8 skill points.
The Factotum is a master of skills. Factotums get 6 skill points and later add Int to everything.
The Wizard has 9th-level casting based off of Intelligence. They get 2 skill points.


Ok, just how bad is the Int boost? I am trying to understand why people think it is overpowered, but I'm not really seeing it. Can you help me understand this?If you need people to explain to you why +10 to save DCs, bonus spells, all skills, skill points, and 10 rolls per encounter is overpowered, you honestly shouldn't be trying to homebrew. I'm sorry, but there's no other way I can put that to make it sound nice. The Hulking Hurler gets +2 Strength per level... but doesn't get any BAB to make up for it, and BAB is what qualifies you for the good feats. There's nothing you can take away to justify a mental stat modifier.

You based the class on factotum. Get a good night's sleep, then tomorrow take a look at the two and ask yourself why anyone would ever play a factotum if this class is allowed.

[ericgrau]

And with inspiration and feats he can get double int mod to saves more times per day than most people need. Heck a str/int based melee hyper-skilled is likely to be stronger than other melee and he gets spells and skills too. The only drawback is now he needs to decide between auto-hitting and auto-passing saves.

A few more words to make full sentences would make it easier to read too. We can't read your mind and not everyone uses exactly the same shorthand.

[reddir]

Hmm, let me ask this:

How does this class look if I remove Inspiration Points and all Spells? Are the high skill levels by themselves overpowered?

Are the problems mainly in the possible Inspiration and Spell uses?

[Anecronwashere]

If you cut down the INT Gain as well it will be better.

Maybe to +1/5levels so by the end it's only a +4 gain

[ericgrau]

The main issue is applying int mod to everything and the +20 int. That effectively leads to a +17 to everything by level 20, and still quite a lot even at lower levels. I mean the class alone gives +10 from int, and your primary stat is up to 14 higher than your secondary stat for another +7, so up to +17. In addition to other normal bonuses you're expected to have at your level. This game is only played with a 20 sided die. So when everyone else needs a 19 (omg run away NOW) you need a 2 (haha, cake walk!). A more reasonable number for something really strong is four above normal. That's why all the X to Y feats and special abilities out there are so crazy strong even without any bonuses to X: you often get an improvement of more than 4. You're talking about a +10 AND substitutions.

Try killing all of that, both substitutions and crazy high bonuses, then you can keep skills and maybe some degree of spell-casting too. Ya +1 int per 4 or 5 levels is a start. Next ditch getting +int to everything.