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Xechon
2012-02-04, 11:14 PM
Magic:

Intro
-How Magic Works
Arcane-
-Spell-shaping
-Casting spells
-Runes
--Energy Source
--Materials
--Gestures and Language
--Focus
---Training
---Failure Consequences
---Schools
Divine-
-Deities
-Pacts
-Possession
-Active or Passive
--Assistance
--Intervention
---Pleasing your power
---Repenting
Psionic-
-physical enhancement
-supernatural actions
--Training
Items-
-potions
-scrolls
-permanent
--Recharge methods
LANGUAGE, SCRIPT, AND GESTURES
MATERIAL COMPONENTS AND FOCUSES

Intro:

In most games, books, movies, and everything else, magic has the potential to be horrendously unfair. Whether it be poorly worded or thought-out spell descriptions, stacking effects endlessly, chaining, training continuously without consequences, auto-hits and crowd blasting, or what have you, magic is usually considered completely broken. This could be because it doesn’t have to follow real-world mechanics and the balance of nature. Maybe its because people don’t like to follow all of the stereotypes of magic, because they seem too hindering. Either way, no matter how hard people try, magic breaks any game its in, with very little exception, if any.

This shouldn't be. If a believable (from a squishy science standpoint) system for it were created, pretending it was possible and skipping over only the minor details that make it impossible, and it follows reality as far as possible, then magic should be more or less completely equal to the mundane, and then we can use new content to push it the rest of the way.

This is my view on a proper magic system. I’m not saying it’s right, or better, but I hope to achieve pseudo-reality for a fantasy mechanic, and use popular folklore to keep it balanced. I will be explaining my thought process and will use examples whenever relevant. Please correct and challenge my ideas so that I may revise them to better implement supernatural forces in a game setting. Notice that there are no numbers, effects, or anything actually usable laid out right now, I am reserving that for later, and would just like to know if my ideas are just at the moment. I am doing this to put into a new RPG I am making, which will not have classes or levels, and the magic will most likely be in the skill system, but I leave this open for anyone to modify for any system as they please. Here we go...

How Magic Works:

Magic, in a very simple definition, is energy. Spellcasting, therefore, is the art of manipulating energy. Energy can be explained simply and fairly accurately as “movement”. I can say this because of how the transfer of energy between it’s forms and the movement of matter when affected by energy. Both energy and matter can’t be destroyed, only converted and distorted, and when energy is converted from one form to another, it merely changes the common direction of the energy. For example, when an arrow flies through the air, it is considered as exerting kinetic energy. However, while it is displacing the air in front of it (matter using energy to displace matter), it also converts some of the energy into heat energy, which is the acceleration of the natural movement of atoms and atomic particles. It also gives off energy in wavelengths called sound, and all of these come from the
initial kinetic energy of the arrow.

Another example of energy being movement is in how it is stored in your cells. They take Glucose, break it down, and use it along with oxygen gas and water to make things move (by + being attracted to -), and then uses that movement and creating rotational energy by putting it through a turbine to shove a phosphate onto an adenosine diphospate (ADP) to make adensosine triphosphate (ATP). When it is shoved on there, it attaches it like a spring, keeping the energy stored as potential energy in a form your cells can use. When hydrolysis occurs, the last phosphate is cut off and the spring releases, also releasing it’s stored energy, which then proceeds to move what it’s supposed to.

Now magic can move things. Whoopee. To add to this, so that magic is useful, I will use popular theoretical science. For those of you familiar with the laws of thermodynamics, you may be confused to why I didn’t mention that energy cannot be created. That is because, as stated (here), energy can be compressed into matter, and matter can be released into energy. Now we can create objects, albeit for a large amount of energy, and as a slow and potentially unstable process, release it for use. This can be thought of as like the process of nuclear fission, in which radioactive uranium breaks down, releases massive amounts of energy, but also very dangerous radiation and random atoms form and react many times in that method.

Also, there are times where you want to use magic to pick a lock or mend a wound. To do this, the caster must have an extreme and precise control over the magic he is wielding, and have knowledge of what he is doing. Just because magic is capable of doing something doesn’t mean you can make it do that. You must have knowledge, and preferably experience, doing the mundane equivalent. Magic merely makes the task easier, but more fatiguing, and in some cases magic is faster, and in some it is slower.

Some might question the application of this rule to effects without a mundane equivalent. However, you cannot, I repeat CANNOT do anything that can’t be duplicated in any form by the mundane. This is not limiting, but it just makes you have to think about what knowledge or regular skill your character must use to understand how to do it. You may still teleport, time travel, and do other extraordinary things. However, using time travel as an example, your character must have sufficient knowledge to understand that matter pulls on time, and that there are micro-subatomic portals between subatomic particles that link space-time. The entire last line is theory from Stephan Hawking.

Now, the energy used in magic has to come from somewhere. For someone who lacks the patience to learn the other techniques, they simply draw from themselves, fatiguing them. They may also decide to draw from their surroundings, taking some of the energy being released from plants or animals at the time and the energy of the winds and rotation of the earth itself. This however, takes more time and concentration than drawing from one’s self. Note that the energy drawn from nature has no ill effects on the surrounding plants and wildlife, as it draws just the energy being released at the time. The third common method is to draw the energy from any of the two sources noted above and store it by using a spell to create a spherical barrier around the caster, which follows him around as he moves. The barrier, unless modified with a spell, provides only a very minor deflection of other’s attacks, such that only objects that would’ve just barely hit would miss because of this. It can be drawn from quickly, but is limited and requires constant concentration.

Controlling magic takes the constant concentration of the caster. Once drawn, magic can not be simply put back (except with a spell, which is not 100% energy efficient). Unless the caster has already started to shape a spell with the energy, it can be released into the air, lost, but with no ill effects. If the caster loses concentration of this magic, it is simply gone. However, if the energy is in an unstable form, as in being released or compressed to convert it’s form, it will react randomly, as in nuclear reactors, and cause potentially harmful effects. For example, if you are storing energy in a barrier around you and you get distracted, it simply dissipates and is lost. If, however, you lose focus while changing that energy into fire (to expand it and hit everything around you), then it could make a pile of salt, blind you with light, create a smokescreen, or even just backfire and burn you.


Arcane Magic:

Spellshaping:

I’ve discussed how magic works and some of the rules and limitations applied to it, but just how can someone use magic? That is controlled by the components of the spell. These include somatic, verbal, material, focus, and concentration. Sound familiar? These components must be precise for precise effects, and therefore must be practiced and, overall, known. There is a specific arrangement of stimuli that moves energy to do what you want, and the somatic and verbal components of spellcasting are often referred to as the language of magic. This “language” is extremely complex, and considered perfect, as not two sound-gesture combinations mean the same thing, and there is a word combination for everything. It must be learned word-gesture at a time, and rules only exist for the combining them. There is also a script for magic, that simulates the somatic, verbal and concentration influences, but I’ll address that later.

To make fire, for instance, a person would have to know the words for channeling energy into an object, and for getting that energy based on their extraction method. If he is lacking fuel or oxygen, however, he must also know how to make carbon and oxygen out of energy.




Largely unfinished, as can be seen from the table of contents, but feel free to post comments, concerns, criticism, and sarcastic remarks. No knock-knock jokes allowed. I will try to update often, and some days are much worse for my wording of subjects so please just be patient with me :smallbiggrin:.

pasko77
2012-02-05, 03:07 AM
I honestly don't like the premise.
For a magic system that isn't overpowered nor scientific, refer to whfrp.
The concept behind it is that you harness Chaos in the real world, so good luck with a reliable cause-effect system.
For a game which has premises similar to yours, there is Ars Magica or Mage the awakening. It is hard to create permanent effects, and you need to KNOW what you are doing.
But requiring quantum knowledge to do stuff is a bit much, isn't it?

Xechon
2012-02-05, 11:03 AM
You, the player, don't need to know it, and while it is much easier if someone does, a character with that knowledge can do anything requiring that knowledge. When it comes time to actually build, I will try to make rules that can cover most things, but if a character gets more creative than I can think of, then it may require the GM saying "not right now" and compiling cause/effects based on result. Don't worry, there will be a guide for that too.

Thanks for the systems, I'll look them up when I get a chance. In response to whfrp, I understand the reasoning behind this system, but I don't believe in true chaos and order, and this doesn't follow scientifically. If you describe chaos as atmospherical entropy caused by heat, that's kind of what I'm doing.

pasko77
2012-02-05, 11:13 AM
you can look at the loopholes found for Mage, in particular.

They show how a minor effect (so relatively inexpensive) can cause major effects, turning to be overpowered. there was for instance a combo to make air richer in oxigen and blow things up with level two effects. I don't remember the details, though.

An interesting way to make "you can do only what you know" is spells don't have effects by themselves, but augment other effects. So for instance there is no Open Lock spell, there is +2 to open locks, so if you aren't able to open locks on your own, the spell is useless.

Xechon
2012-02-05, 11:29 AM
Yes, you can add more oxygen to the air. However that takes knowing how to do so, enough energy to compress into oxygen, and a fuel source for your fire or explosion. And then, try not to hit yourself and your allies.

And that last part is exactly what I mean. That seems a good way to limit magic without making it usable 1/day. Also, the knowledge of magic is hard to find and learn. And tgen you need practice, etc etc. Essentially, magic will let you bypass some requirements of mundane tasks, perform them at a range, over multiple targets at a time, and perform some tasks impossible for the age with a ton of energy.

erikun
2012-02-05, 12:31 PM
Just a few quick thoughts:

You seem to be referencing a lot of different media, but only raise complaints commonly found in RPGs. Books, movies, myths, and even video games do not typically run into "poorly worded or thought-out spell descriptions, stacking effects endlessly, chaining, training continuously without consequences, auto-hits and crowd blasting" as frequent problems.

Fantasy, folklore, psudo-fantasy, and being balanced are very different things that can coexist or exist independently of one another. Herakles is not "balanced" against everyday people, despite being a popular mythical figure, while arcane knowledge in the Lovecraftian universe certainly carries drawbacks. What's more, "balance" is a vague term that only carries meaning in the sense of a game system design - Herakles could indeed be balanced against others of the same level, but that depends on various abilities being balanced and scaling together by level.

Nuclear reactors do not act randomly.

Your description of magic use almost seems to ignore the idea of balance. Causing people to explode or turn to acid is generally considered imbalanced, because doing so removes the opponent with a single action more conveniently than and normal, mundane option would. Such magic, though, typically has no problem with creating fireballs or acid sprays. However, physically speaking, there is no difference between creating acid from air and acid from bone. Both would be roughly as difficult from a chemical standpoint. There is no difference between transforming air into energy for a concussive blast and doing the same with heart muscle.

And finally, I don't really see a conflict anywhere. You are simply describing the methodology of spellcasting, not the actual spells or results. I realise this is still a work in process, but I could take a D&D 3e wizard - any wizard - and claim they know exactly what you say they should know here, doing exactly the same way you describe it here, with the same effects. That doesn't mean your idea doesn't have merit or cannot be worked towards your ideal, just that "traditional" RPG magic systems are not quite are unrealistic as you seem to claim.

Xechon
2012-02-05, 09:02 PM
You seem to be referencing a lot of different media, but only raise complaints commonly found in RPGs. Books, movies, myths, and even video games do not typically run into "poorly worded or thought-out spell descriptions, stacking effects endlessly, chaining, training continuously without consequences, auto-hits and crowd blasting" as frequent problems.

Sorry, refers to potential to be abused.


Fantasy, folklore, psudo-fantasy, and being balanced are very different things that can coexist or exist independently of one another. Herakles is not "balanced" against everyday people, despite being a popular mythical figure, while arcane knowledge in the Lovecraftian universe certainly carries drawbacks. What's more, "balance" is a vague term that only carries meaning in the sense of a game system design - Herakles could indeed be balanced against others of the same level, but that depends on various abilities being balanced and scaling together by level.

I believe I said pseudo-reality in a fantasy system. This is to strike down the concept of an ultimate, or at least semi-ultimate, persona such as Hercules. Sure, life isn't perfect balance, and some people are better than others. However, people are born equal and have the same amount of potential, albeit different kinds, just some use it and others don't. And also, Hercules is religion, not magic. Balance refers to what it always has. Yes, a bit vague, but that's because it's supposed to take into account everything. Essentially, I want mages to be powerful, but not plentiful, because of the difficulty of learning it, understanding, manipulating, and limited, as traditionally as possible. I see the world as an automatically balanced place, because of the rules of nature. If these need to still be followed, then fantasy should fall close to that auto-balance.


Nuclear reactors do not act randomly.

Umm... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor) True, we have it semi-controlled, but that's also what you need to do with magic.


Your description of magic use almost seems to ignore the idea of balance. Causing people to explode or turn to acid is generally considered imbalanced, because doing so removes the opponent with a single action more conveniently than and normal, mundane option would. Such magic, though, typically has no problem with creating fireballs or acid sprays. However, physically speaking, there is no difference between creating acid from air and acid from bone. Both would be roughly as difficult from a chemical standpoint. There is no difference between transforming air into energy for a concussive blast and doing the same with heart muscle.

I'm sorry, I seem not to have stressed the limits enough. It can take many years to learn how to shape magic. Spells can be learned easier, but are extremely situation-specific (Ex. Pick lock spell, can automatically pick a certain lock, but only that lock. You'd have to learn a new one for every lock. Shaping magic, you only get a bonus, because it could be anything and is derived by you, but a spell is preset). Spells take energy, more than the mundane version, and while you can draw that energy from your surroundings, that takes more time. More time, more chance of interruption, which means you just lost all of that progress. You must still use materials for your spells. You must have absolute concentration, and unless you are casting under your concentration limit, that means you have to stay still. Also, this is meant for my own skill-based system, which hopefully will finally give the archer its use, the fighter its out-of combat skill, and keep the mage from blowing up the world... again.

As for conversions, yes, you could make something out of that energy at the same difficulty no matter what the energy source is, but crystal is immensely harder to make than gold, and gold is not really useful at all, its just considered currency because its pretty. However, consider that air is a gas, and therefore dispersed, and it would take longer to gather it all to make the same amount of energy as bone, and time is very important.


And finally, I don't really see a conflict anywhere. You are simply describing the methodology of spellcasting, not the actual spells or results. I realise this is still a work in process, but I could take a D&D 3e wizard - any wizard - and claim they know exactly what you say they should know here, doing exactly the same way you describe it here, with the same effects. That doesn't mean your idea doesn't have merit or cannot be worked towards your ideal, just that "traditional" RPG magic systems are not quite are unrealistic as you seem to claim.

I believed I mentioned that this is entirely methodology. I will put numbers and mechanics to it later, when I can establish the basic rules and a baseline for my system itself. This is here purely to see whether I am a complete idiot, fix some of my ideas, and see if anyone might like it. The third one isn't near as important. My system itself is going to take forever due to my inclination to the near-perfect and the sheer amount of material and research, and evaluation of others' research to find out which is good and which is crap-talk. There will be a system for knowledge, skills, and magic so you can't "just say that "they know exactly what you say they should know here, doing exactly the same way you describe it here, with the same effects." And if you are defending the pinnacle of traditional, D&D (assuming 3.5), think. Wizards cast and forget. Spells are pre-defined, and most classes only get to chose what spells they will use for that day when they wake up. Spells manifest in a wizards spellbook when they level up. Need I go on? Spellcasting has always been annoying to me because of limited/day and pre-defining what effects you can do. Yet it is still considered overpowered.

Sorry if I seem too defending of my ideas, but I want to know what situations actually wouldn't work properly and modify my ideas accordingly. I will promptly change if I find it doesn't work, but otherwise I will stick to my ideas until it is finished. I figured if anyone could find out what I did wrong, it would be you guys.

erikun
2012-02-05, 11:35 PM
Umm... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor) True, we have it semi-controlled, but that's also what you need to do with magic.
I don't see anything about random or chance in there.
And while I am not a nuclear physicist, I am fairly sure that most (if not all) disasters or near-disasters with nuclear reactors were due to mismanagement, ignoring safety protocols, or simply lacking the preventive measures against some very well-understood reactions during a meltdown.


Back on topic, my point was that actions are not what make two options balanced, or at least do not necessarily need to be. If a sword does 1d6 damage and a fireball 5d6, then that doesn't mean that the sword should get to act five times for every single fireball. Rather, balance can also mean the amount of resources it takes to acquire something. The problem is not that a stopping time or exploding people is unbalancing compared to a sword, but that it is handed out to wizards for the equilivant of +1 to hit and hitting slightly harder.

And if we are talking reality, there are plenty of "unbalanced" situations. Gold is weaker all around compared to other metals, despite being far harder to acquire. You could argue that basic economics if a realistic natural balancing force, as the better options will end up either more rare or more expensive, or so wildly available that they are options for everyone.