Optimize a lvl 200 Commoner

[Calanon]

Truest testimony to how insane this board is :smallamused:

Inspiration for this question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12662965&postcount=80)

Cmon Playground, show me what you got and so we have something to put it up against? Lets use a 20th lvl Wizard :smallamused:

[Curious]

Truest testimony to how insane this board is :smallamused:

Inspiration for this question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12662965&postcount=80)

Cmon Playground, show me what you got and so we have something to put it up against? Lets use a 20th lvl Wizard :smallamused:

Unless the commoner uses WBLmancy, wizard wins, as usual. We've had this debate before, if you can find one of the older topics.

[kardar233]

We've done this with a Monk before. Ridiculously-high-level Monk with 20th-level WBL against a 20th level Wizard.

Then Tippy got involved, and proved he could do it with a 15th-level one. Madness. Madness I tell you.

[Radar]

I don't know, if it was ever posted, but I'd like to refer The Cube - one of the Tier 0.5 (i guess) builds from Test of Spite duel format (level 13 with additional list of bans and restrictions). At this level already it was night unbeatable (i don't think it ever lost, but it might have problems against unrestricted builds) and it was just a Commoner taking full advantage of his WBL and doing nothing of importance during the fight.

With 200 levels worth of WBL, one can duplicate a 20th level wizard and then some.

[DeAnno]

WBL-mancy is mainly a draw because the wizard should also be using his WBL. The main advantage the commoner has (aside from unbeatable saves and a mountain of hp) is feat-mancy, with 67 feats. He also has 101 ranks in skills he likes.

[Seerow]

First use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35) for 9th level spells on the Commoner. Takes 11 feats, so you manage this by level 30. Now you just need 24 skill ranks in a couple cross class skills for Epic Spellcasting. You can manage that by level 45. This leaves you a few feats in between for normal Leadership Shenanigans, but either way by level 45 you have a Commoner with epic spellcasting. I don't think you're gonna do much better than that with the other 150 levels.

[Frozen_Feet]

I recall there being a chain of feats that'd theoretically give any character 9th level spells. With 60 epic feats to choose from, I think that should be easy to achieve and improve on with Commoner 200.

Anyways, we had a similar discussion with a Monk... 1000, was it? The conclusion was that such Monk would be indestructible in pretty much all manners even before WBL, and while Wizard 20 could hole up in a demi-plane and be practically unreachable to the Monk, any attempt to confront the Monk would be a fool's errand.

Also note-worthy is that any cheese a Wizard can pull, an epic character of such ludicrous level can pull as well at least through use of Leadership and Epic Leadership.

Anyways, with 20th level WBL, I'm fairly sure the Commoner could find his own way to get the first turn (by emulating best tricks of the Wizard if nothing else), then use all those feats to ensure that yes, he will hit the Wizard, and that hit will kill him. In fact, since his level and Epic feats give him pretty impressive defenses already, I think the commoner could sink most of his wealth into a purpose-made weapon (such as the one that destroys astral projections).

[CTrees]

As before, I'm less interested in L200 commoner v. L15 wizard or similar. A level 200 commoner versus a housecat with templates bringing it to CR200, both with the attendant optimization- THAT'S what I want to see.

[Seerow]

As before, I'm less interested in L200 commoner v. L15 wizard or similar. A level 200 commoner versus a housecat with templates bringing it to CR200, both with the attendant optimization- THAT'S what I want to see.

I don't think there's enough templates out there for that...


And even if there is, very few templates give bonus hit dice, so chances are the cat's HP and basically everything else will be abysmal. Even a low op commoner could probably take care of it.

[Mystify]

If you use feats to get 9th level spells, you can get epic spellcasting. with the WBL of a 200, your spellcraft check is so absurd you could have an epic spell that destroys the earth as a swift action.

Alternatively, focus on charisma(actually, it requires very little focus), and get a level 198 wizard cohort with epic leadership :smallcool:

[Seerow]

If you use feats to get 9th level spells, you can get epic spellcasting. with the WBL of a 200, your spellcraft check is so absurd you could have an epic spell that destroys the earth as a swift action.

Alternatively, focus on charisma(actually, it requires very little focus), and get a level 198 wizard cohort with epic leadership :smallcool:

Or just do leadership for more commoners with the same feat setup. Every commoner you get that is at least level 45 will have epic spellcasting, and you will have 1 epic spell for every 20 levels. You and your army of epic commoners will have more than enough epic spells to do anything you ever want, who needs a wizard?

[Tr011]

Or just do leadership for more commoners with the same feat setup. Every commoner you get that is at least level 45 will have epic spellcasting, and you will have 1 epic spell for every 20 levels. You and your army of epic commoners will have more than enough epic spells to do anything you ever want, who needs a wizard?

There are ways to get class skills. So you'd have one epic spell per 10 levels.
And we all know level 200 is stupid. So taking some craft feats and crafting yourself down to level 190 wouldn't really affect your power (you could also use thought bottle) but would bring you endless money. If you have enough magic items you can be essentially a wizard, so even with WBL of a lvl 20 char starting you would totally rock.

[sreservoir]

I don't think there's enough templates out there for that...


And even if there is, very few templates give bonus hit dice, so chances are the cat's HP and basically everything else will be abysmal. Even a low op commoner could probably take care of it.

a housecat has enough cha to apply ghosts, so do that and just under two hundred instances of evolved undead.

[Eloel]

a housecat has enough cha to apply ghosts, so do that and just under two hundred instances of evolved undead.

With a grand total of 6 hitpoints, you hope the commoner doesn't use a wand of magic missile.

[Eldan]

I don't think there's enough templates out there for that...


Well, you could make it undead and give it evolved enough times to make up the gap.

[Curious]

Anyways, we had a similar discussion with a Monk... 1000, was it? The conclusion was that such Monk would be indestructible in pretty much all manners even before WBL, and while Wizard 20 could hole up in a demi-plane and be practically unreachable to the Monk, any attempt to confront the Monk would be a fool's errand.


Actually, the consensus was that, even if it was impossible to beat any of the monks saves, beat his SR, or beat his AC or HP, the Wizard could still win using a few specific combos, regardless of the level of the monk. Theoretically, the wizard could defeat a level 1-trillion monk, assuming his WBL never exceeded 20th.

[Seerow]

Actually, the consensus was that, even if it was impossible to beat any of the monks saves, beat his SR, or beat his AC or HP, the Wizard could still win using a few specific combos, regardless of the level of the monk. Theoretically, the wizard could defeat a level 1-trillion monk, assuming his WBL never exceeded 20th.

Give the Monk epic spellcasting too. Wizard never stands a chance :p

[Suddo]

Wasn't the monk that lost a 1000 level monk? Assuming no WBLmancy.

Edit: Dang I'm late to the party.

[DoughGuy]

Just quickly could someone pst the link to the monk vs wizard thread? I keep losing it.

On topic go chicken infested and get greater consumptive field to start. Boost your strength out the wazoo. Then punch the world plane splitting it in half. You win.

[TravelLog]

We've done this with a Monk before. Ridiculously-high-level Monk with 20th-level WBL against a 20th level Wizard.

Then Tippy got involved, and proved he could do it with a 15th-level one. Madness. Madness I tell you.

Whoa. Link to Tippy's point?

[kardar233]

Hmm, looked through the thread, no sign of Tippy. Must be confusing it with another one of those. Get quite a few of them.

However, I'm pretty sure I could pull it off with an anti-surprise mechanism (some way to get (Ex) abilities on a Polymorph, or just a scroll of Shapechange or Foresight), Anticipate Teleport, Forcecage and a NSJD.