Beatsticks - What roles do they have?

[Helldog]

What role in a team can a beatstick have and what is the best class for it? Lets assume medium op (so the casters don't obsolete mundanes).

[NeoSeraphi]

I assume you are referring to mundane beatsticks here. If not, the best beatsticks are clerics and druids, as they have quite a variety of useful spells, can increase their Strength scores at will, and can gain powerful augmented weapons or natural attacks.

The druid is the best beatstick, with the mighty bite of the werebear spell granting him a whopping +16 Strength, +2 Dex, +8 Con, as well as +8 natural armor and the Power Attack and Multiattack feats for free. His roles also include secondary beatstick (animal companion), party healer, scout, battlefield control, blaster, and speaking with/charming/dominating animals, as well as animating trees (in the many ways that that can help you)


Now, on the assumption that you meant a mundane beatstick, the best one that I know of would be the Crusader (Tome of Battle). Like the cleric, the crusader can heal (but he can heal and attack in the same action, very important), as well as dish out major damage and also penalize enemies for attacking his allies. He has proficiency with heavy armor and with shields, making him a pre-built tank. Just pick your weapon (I suggest a longsword for the flavor) and grab a shield.

Because crusaders have so many abilities that rely on their Charisma score, they make great party faces. With Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills, the crusader is able to converse with allies and strike fear into the heart of foes. He can even be a pretty decent debuffer if you want to optimize fear through Intimidate (which I highly recommend, it's not that difficult and a frightened opponent is much easier to kill than a normal one)

[marcielle]

Bodyguards for the casters. Making sure the caster isn't just squished by one big hit form the bosses.
Damage dealers(At medium op, they should still be a better choice than wasting slots on metamagic evoc)
Shieldwall/pet extermination(so casters dont just get swamped by waves of Zerg rushes).
And dont forget, Crusaders are also great swiss army knives. Trapped door? Go through the walls :D.

[Helldog]

Yes, I meant more-or-less mundane beatsticks. I know that casters dominate the game and can do anything.

So Crusader is a great tank. Okay.
Bodyguard/shieldwall/pet extermination are also part of being a tank. What is important for a tank? A way to focus enemy attention on yourself. ACrusader or Knight can do that. Prevent enemies to reach other teammates. Crusader or Knight also can do that. What else?
Damage dealer - What class is good for it? Warblade? Barbarian?

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes, I meant more-or-less mundane beatsticks. I know that casters dominate the game and can do anything.

So Crusader is a great tank. Okay.
Bodyguard/shieldwall/pet extermination are also part of being a tank. What is important for a tank? A way to focus enemy attention on yourself. ACrusader or Knight can do that. Prevent enemies to reach other teammates. Crusader or Knight also can do that. What else?
Damage dealer - What class is good for it? Warblade? Barbarian?

Again, Crusader is a great damage dealer. Stone Dragon is full of powerful attacks, as is Devoted Spirit. (Divine Surge, for instance, is an ability you can use at 7th level, and lets you attack with a +8d8 damage bonus).

Warblade is slightly better than crusader at dishing out damage at higher levels. Around levels 1-10, though, they're pretty even.

[Eldan]

Let's focus on the three things mentioned already:

Shield Wall and focusing enemies on yourself: the problem here is stopping people from ignoring you and attacking the more dangerous casters. At low levels, this can be done adequately with a reach weapon, combat reflexes and tripping. At higher levels, you need to get creative. Basically, as soon as enemies can fly, teleport, walk through terrain, gain huge land speeds or become immune to your basic attacks. Size increases help with getting more reach to cover a wider area, ghost touch and other weapon enhancements helps with hitting things, but sooner or later, the wizard is probably best off protecting himself, rather than relying on you. The best way to get people to focus on you is being a threat, which is difficult.

Damage: the most often recommended build here is a leap-attacking charger with a massive power attack. The goal is being able to dish out more damage in one hit than any enemy can withstand. As soon as you have that, you can focus all your resources into not being disabled easily. Resistances, movement modes, that kind of thing.

[Hawk7915]

The number one goal of a beatstick is to be able to wallop enemies for a ton of damage, while being able to survive the counterattack. Clearly divine casters are best at this job in mid-high OP campaigns, as are gishes, but in mid-low OP games, the number one factor for survival is a large pool of HPs, and the number one trick for dishing out damage is large weapon dice and a high attack bonus. Warblades and Crusaders (Tome of Battle) are the best at the job: huge HP, full BAB, powerful maneuvers. Warblades tend to be more mobile and dish out more damage per attack, while Crusaders get to wear full-plate, delay damage, and heal themselves. Barbarians arguably dish out more damage than either class, but tend to be limited to one or two specific tricks and really suffer if those tricks don't work (IE, uber-charging). Any martial class can uber-charge, however, so to an extent Knights, Fighters, and Paladins can also fill this role (albeit much less efficiently and with much less additional utility than a Tome of Battle class).

The secondary role is "tanking" (preventing enemies from reaching/attacking allies, incentivizing enemies to go after you instead), which is hard to do in 3.5. Crusaders get some light tanking abilities, as do Knights. Any class with a spiked chain + Combat Reflexes + Stand Still can also be pretty good at limiting enemy movement, making them handy tanks. Ironically, a few levels in Monk or Fighter are useful for such builds due to the feat requirements, although it should be noted that you should leap out of those classes after 2-6 levels. Other forms of "battlefield control" for martial classes are intimidate spam (Samurai/Fighter with feats to cripple anyone who is intimidated by them) or grapple (a barbarian can do okay at the job, but the king of this is often a druid due to the way size affects grappling in 3.5).

[ericgrau]

Since the basics have already been covered I'll get more obscure:
Breaker: They tend to be the best for strength checks such as bashing down doors, breaking manacles or chains, smashing treasure chests, etc. Crowbars, portable rams and sledges are helpful. Slashing or bludgeoning weapon damage often works too. At high levels you might even bust through walls. At any level your weapon can quickly break a thin wall, such as a wall of stone or ice.
Buff target: When foes have SR or immunities in medium OP often the best thing to do is buff the beatsticks or block off half the foes to help the beatsticks out.
Darkness/blindness/invisibility: Especially at mid levels when the caster often won't have the right counter prepared, or low levels when the caster can't have it prepared. This overlaps with skillmonkeys a little since it requires listen, but even barbarians have listen. It's only a DC 20 once combat begins. Beatsticks also tend to out-grapple stealthy types and have the AC to stop their attack of opportunity so that the party can join in.
Trap soaker: This overlaps a little with damage soaker. Beatsticks have the high HP, AC and fort save to trigger most traps after the rogue has done his best and steps back, or he's the best to walk in front in general with or without a rogue.

[Psyren]

The best beatsticks are the ones that can do other stuff when a wall of flesh in combat isn't required; i.e. T3 and up. Binders are great beatsticks for instance (how many other classes can get masterwork full plate for free at level 1?) and anything in ToB is good too.

[Helldog]

The best beatsticks are the ones that can do other stuff when a wall of flesh in combat isn't required; i.e. T3 and up. Binders are great beatsticks for instance (how many other classes can get masterwork full plate for free at level 1?) and anything in ToB is good too.
I know that. This topic is about roles and what classes are good at that roles.

[JohnDaBarr]

Personally I like a Fighter 4/ Barbarian build but a pure Fighter isn't that bad and with the right feats (Leap Attack, Shock trooper etc ...) it can be pretty deadly and after the 5-6 lvl can oneshot almost everything :)

but mundane beatsticks are quite easy to counter, with simple 1-2 lvl spells (Grease, Glitterdust etc...) simply put, if they are unable to charge or see you they become useless.

A simple well placed Rogue with a good UMD can spam Grease and then sneak attack everything that stands in it XD

[Helldog]

Personally I like a Fighter 4/ Barbarian build but a pure Fighter isn't that bad and with the right feats (Leap Attack, Shock trooper etc ...) it can be pretty deadly and after the 5-6 lvl can oneshot almost everything :)

but mundane beatsticks are quite easy to counter, with simple 1-2 lvl spells (Grease, Glitterdust etc...) simply put, if they are unable to charge or see you they become useless.

A simple well placed Rogue with a good UMD can spam Grease and then sneak attack everything that stands in it XD
What does it have to do with this topic? :smallconfused:

[JohnDaBarr]

What does it have to do with this topic?

some beatsticks, like mundane ones, in certain situations can get neutralize pretty easy and then only role they have is to get in the way...

[Helldog]

some beatsticks, like mundane ones, in certain situations can get neutralize pretty easy and then only role they have is to get in the way...
So nothing. Don't bother with continuing.

[Psyren]

I know that. This topic is about roles and what classes are good at that roles.

Exactly; Binder's role is whatever you want it to be (including Beatstick.)

[Helldog]

Exactly; Binder's role is whatever you want it to be (including Beatstick.)
This topic is about roles that beatsticks can do.

[Psyren]

This topic is about roles that beatsticks can do.

Not sure I understand. In combat, a beatstick has three objectives - protect the weaker members of the party, stay alive, kill the enemy.

Outside combat, his status as beatstick doesn't really matter, just what else his class is capable of.

I mentioned Binder because they can do all of the above, as can any T3+ class.

[Helldog]

Not sure I understand. In combat, a beatstick has three objectives - protect the weaker members of the party, stay alive, kill the enemy.
But I'm asking about roles, not objectives...
And obviously I mean roles in combat. I DO talk about beatsticks after all.

Okay... Lets try it from a different perspective. Lets say that we have a team of mundane combatants. What roles or fighting styles could everyone of them deploy so that each does something else (even if some of them will differ only by the way they do it and not what they do)? And I don't ask for specific builds, more like general things.
It would be nice if that team would be able to hold their own against most of encounters, even if only mundane combat ones.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay... Lets try it from a different perspective. Lets say that we have a team of mundane combatants. What roles or fighting styles could everyone of them deploy so that each does something else (even if some of them will differ only by the way they do it and not what they do)? And I don't ask for specific builds, more like general things.
It would be nice if that team would be able to hold their own against most of encounters, even if only mundane combat ones.

Do beatsticks with some magic (like paladins) count? What about skillmonkeys?

If they do, then paladin built for healing (DMM: Maximize on healing spells could work), a rogue/ninja spy, a warblade focused on pure beatdown, and a crusader tank with healing and White Raven stuff would be good.

[Helldog]

Do beatsticks with some magic (like paladins) count? What about skillmonkeys?

If they do, then paladin built for healing (DMM: Maximize on healing spells could work), a rogue/ninja spy, a warblade focused on pure beatdown, and a crusader tank with healing and White Raven stuff would be good.
They do, but I'm more concerned about combat roles, keep that in mind.
And there can be more then the classic 4 men.

[hisnamehere]

While I sympathize with you on the inability of optimizers to chill out and talk in mortal terms, I'm wondering if the answer you are looking for is as simple as:

Mundane combatant party:
- 1x blitzer/nova-er; he's slow to get going, slow to recover, and only does one thing really well, but absolutely obliterates one opponent he targets.
- 2x defence-ers; decent dmg output, but with skill at making choke points on the battlefield and setting up the blitzer.
- 2x range-ers; one for battlefield control (reach weapons, or enhanced artillery (essence-ed eldritch blasts or magic arrows), one for sniping (ranged dmg).
- 3x fighters; they have hp, dmg, and att bonus, one each of piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing.

Alternately, you're looking at exploiting the various nuances of the Str score:
- jumper/climber
- breaker

Or be a dps rogue, and then you're a rogue, with as many possibilities for jobs as they have class skills.

Helpful? If not, I promise to try harder.

Happy gaming,

[Manateee]

Could you state the question in more explicit terms? It's pretty clear that I'm not the only one with no idea what you're talking about.

I think most posters here would consider "beatstick" a role - the guy who acts as a fleshy wall until the casters "win" the fight with buffs/debuffs/BC, then who deals the damage to mop up/end the fight.

So when you ask what roles a beatstick plays, your question seems akin to asking what sport a baseball player plays.

[olentu]

Could you state the question in more explicit terms? It's pretty clear that I'm not the only one with no idea what you're talking about.

I think most posters here would consider "beatstick" a role - the guy who acts as a fleshy wall until the casters "win" the fight with buffs/debuffs/BC, then who deals the damage to mop up/end the fight.

So when you ask what roles a beatstick plays, your question seems akin to asking what sport a baseball player plays.

Eh I would have called that more of a meatshield then a beatstick.

[Psyren]

So by "role" you mean "fighting style?"

Such As:
- Mobile Skirmisher (able to either to get next to any opponent in the battlefield quickly, or play keep-away if ranged.)
- Mighty Glacier (barely moves at all, but can take anything the enemy dishes out, including being surrounded.)
- Lockdown (rather than worrying about his own mobility, focuses on restricting the movements of the enemy)
- Assassin (maximizes damage to one target at a time, winning battles by attrition.)

Like that?

(Note that some of these can be combined)

[Helldog]

So by "role" you mean "fighting style?"

Such As:
- Mobile Skirmisher (able to either to get next to any opponent in the battlefield quickly, or play keep-away if ranged.)
- Mighty Glacier (barely moves at all, but can take anything the enemy dishes out, including being surrounded.)
- Lockdown (rather than worrying about his own mobility, focuses on restricting the movements of the enemy)
- Assassin (maximizes damage to one target at a time, winning battles by attrition.)

Like that?

(Note that some of these can be combined)
Yeah, you can take it like that. There can be more specific roles beyond simply being "The Beatstick", right?
Hisnamehere is also pretty close.

[Psyren]

Well, in addition to the ones I mentioned, there are a few more:

- Tactician (can reposition allies - and sometimes enemies - to maximize group effectiveness.)
- Bulwark (wins battles by staying alive and outlasting the enemy's resources - the archetypical "tank.")
- Dervish (seeks to hit as many opponents as possible with each attack routine.)

Or you can subdivide the broader categories I gave in the last post to get more specific builds. For instance "Lockdown" can be divided into "Hard Lockdown" (enemies are totally unable to take certain actions) or "Soft Lockdown" (enemies can behave freely, but undesired actions are heavily punished.)

But I wasn't kidding when I said "pick a T3+ class" - they can really do all of the above. A Psychic Warrior for instance, or again a Binder.

[Talionis]

Their sole reason for existence is to make the non-mundanes feel better about themselves. We don't give nice things to them. If anyone suggests they get nice things we ban the book.

There is nothing a mundane beatsick does better than a magical counterpart other than maybe survive the first few levels.