Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader - Which is better?

[Rossebay]

If we were to rate each class, which would we decide was better?

No Arcane Swordsage here, don't even go for it, haha.

[jindra34]

My opinion is Swordsage (so many cool tricks) then Warblade then Crusader. I suspect most people might switch Warblade and Swordsage though.

[NeoSeraphi]

Each one isn't necessarily better than the others. After all, the classes themselves all suck. (+Cha to Will saves, Smite once per day, Weapon Focus with a few weapons, Evasion, Int to Reflex saves, Int to critical confirmation rolls, Improved Uncanny Dodge)

What you should be asking is "which disciplines are the best".

If you want to know straight up which class is the best, its warblade. Bonus feats, SAD support, relevant class features. Crusader has Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike, but...meh. Swordsage's class features are just awful.

As for the maneuvers themselves, I think warblade has the group beat. Highest HD, great proficiencies, high BAB, and a combination of Diamond Mind (high damage and protection), Iron Heart (AOEs and protection), Tiger Claw (TWF support), Stone Dragon (Raw Damage, Ignore DR), and White Raven (Teamwork tactics).

Swordsage is decent, but the lack of White Raven really hurts the swordsage's ability to screw with the action economy. Setting Sun has a lot of counters, but you only need a few counters readied anyway, and Wall of Blades is great for any warblade. Plus, the swordsage recovery mechanic is terrible.

Crusader's recovery mechanic is by far the best, but the limited school access hurts his versatility. He also has an alignment restriction. It's just a small one, but that often sits unwell with people (especially on this forum).

[FMArthur]

I think it's really closer to Crusader > Warblade > Swordsage to most people I've seen talking about them, but I also think the reasoning is slightly misleading; Crusader and Warblade are more useful than Swordsage as part of builds because they bring a lot of awesome low-action-requirement options to builds that already have something else to be doing. Much of the key maneuvers to use in dips to benefit outside classes are pretty low level and mostly on the Warblade and Crusader disciplines.

But to play single-classed? Swordsage all the way. The number of options they have available to them are just so much broader and more numerous than either of the others. Setting Sun in particular is a really cool and unique style that pretty much only Swordsages will use because it's tough to squeeze benefits for other classes out of it, but Shadow Hand is awesome and the variety in your combat style that can be attained even focusing on the non-exclusive disciplines because of your Maneuvers Known puts both other classes to shame in the flexibility department.

[Zaq]

I'd say Warblade and Crusader are about tied, and Swordsage is slightly beneath them. Their terrible recovery mechanic just kills them (relative to the other two).

[Rossebay]

I'd say Warblade and Crusader are about tied, and Swordsage is slightly beneath them. Their terrible recovery mechanic just kills them (relative to the other two).

Doesn't adaptive style fix all of that, though?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Doesn't adaptive style fix all of that, though?

Still way worse than the warblade and crusader recovery mechanics.

[Mordokai]

Crusader's recovery mechanic is by far the best, but the limited school access hurts his versatility. He also has an alignment restriction. It's just a small one, but that often sits unwell with people (especially on this forum).

Emphasis mine. And that is a double sided coin. Less disciplines mean less cherry picking. Ergo, it's harder to screw building a crusader then it is building a swordsage.

That is also one of the reason I prefer crusader over other two initiators. The other, biggest one, is the fact that I very much prefer the playstlye crusader offers. Stand there and laugh at everything DM throws at you. With crusader, you have a pretty much unkillable beast that can wither pretty much anything of appropriate level.

[Fouredged Sword]

They are all close to the same level, with the exception that swordsage takes more to get to that level. Warblade is most direct and has the best features, crusader has the best recovery method, swordsage has the best list, but the recovery method is horrid even with the feat to mitigate this problem..

[tyckspoon]

Doesn't adaptive style fix all of that, though?

Not entirely. It's worlds better than the Swordsage's default so-called-recovery, but it's still worse than the defaults for Crusader (no action required at all) and Warblade (can recover while full-attacking, so still contributes to the fight effectively even while not using maneuvers.) Adaptive Style still requires you to give up an entire round to do nothing but recover maneuvers, which is generally not something you want to do if you can help it. It's still the worst method of recovery in that sense.

[FMArthur]

The Warblade's really isn't as superior as people give it credit for. You lose your Swift action and standard, get a single normal attack that won't matter compared to any decent attacking routine you'd have, and can't use maneuvers. Basically you can recover your maneuvers and get a Move action in the same round, and scratch an enemy as a kind of rude gesture. Woo. Next round you will devour them in a tornado of whirling death just like you would have anyway.

The Swordsage just doesn't get to move, but keeps his Swift action so he can change stance and he gets to readjust his fighting style if he wants, and needs to do it less often. The feat tax is the only problem here.

[Helldog]

The Warblade's really isn't as superior as people give it credit for. You lose your Swift action and standard, get a single normal attack that won't matter compared to any decent attacking routine you'd have, and can't use maneuvers. Basically you can recover your maneuvers and get a Move action in the same round, and scratch an enemy as a kind of rude gesture. Woo. Next round you will devour them in a tornado of whirling death just like you would have anyway.
You can recover with a full attack.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The Warblade's really isn't as superior as people give it credit for. You lose your Swift action and standard, get a single normal attack that won't matter compared to any decent attacking routine you'd have, and can't use maneuvers. Basically you can recover your maneuvers and get a Move action in the same round, and scratch an enemy as a kind of rude gesture. Woo. Next round you will devour them in a tornado of whirling death just like you would have anyway.

You can use a full attack when recovering. It just says attack action, or standard action to do nothing, it doesn't say the attack is a standard action.

Edit: Swordsaged!

[FMArthur]

OOOOHHHHH!

I've been playing Warblades wrong all this time. :smallredface:

[Rossebay]

OOOOHHHHH!

I've been playing Warblades wrong all this time. :smallredface:

Hahaha. I remember when I thought all you could do was flourish your blade while not provoking attacks of opportunity...

I was like, "This is a Swordsage, but all instead of one. Who made this?"

I figured it out a week or so ago that you could continue to contribute while recovering your power source.

[gkathellar]

The strongest of the three in general is probably Warblade.

Crusader benefits most from optimization, as noted by the variety of strong Crusader builds out there. EDIT: This is because of the excellent recovery mechanic, but it's worth pointing out that Crusader recovery is also by far the best in terms of combat flow and fun play. Crusaders never play like anything other than initiators, while the others have to every once in a while.

Swordsage is the weakest in terms of raw power, but not by much. Also, some of its disciplines can accomplish things that the others are simply incapable of, and Shadow Hand in general is fantastic.


But to play single-classed? Swordsage all the way.

No way. Swordsage is absolutely the best of the three to PrC out of. It gets enough maneuvers known and readied that it doesn't really lose out on the generally worse gains from PrCs, and levels 13-20 don't really grant much in the way of class features. Crusader is likewise pretty good to PrC out of, but missing out on Mettle and the increasing Furious Counterstrike progression can hurt.

The best initiator to play single-classed is definitely Warblade, because it has a fantastic capstone.

[DeAnno]

One Swordsage issue isn't even its recovery, it's its maneuvers. It's the only of the three with no access to White Raven and White Raven Tactics. Iron Heart is pretty ok, with a couple real good counters especially. And most painfully, one could easily argue that Devoted Heart is the strongest single Discipline, with two Stances that some entire builds are focused around in Thicket and Perfect Order, as well as an assortment of other good stuff like high damage strikes and healing maneuvers that tend to be quite decent for their level.

Sure, Swordsages have Shadow Hand, which has a lot of great things, but Desert Wind (Reflex half) and Setting Sun tend to feel a little lacking to me when I'm building characters. I rarely feel like I'm being well compensated for the BaB and class features with their (not really superior at all) maneuvers when building them.

I would say from ECL 1-20, counting both dipping and main class utility, Crusader > Warblade > Swordsage.

[navar100]

I rate crusader only slightly ahead of warblade because he has more maneuvers. The granted/not granted at first issue offsets this somewhat, but starts with readying all maneuvers he knows. When he begins knowing more maneuvers than can be readied, he's learning higher level maneuvers such that the ones he is not readying are at worse almost obsolete but otherwise soon will be. The warblade quickly knows more maneuvers than he can ready, so those maneuvers are wasted. He almost needs Adaptive Style as much as Swordsage but Crusader almost needs Extra Granted maneuver, so they're even on the feat tax. The class features and base statistics of both are all good in their own right. Some people understandably are put off by the crusader's recovery method, so I won't quibble to say they're really equal.

Swordsage ... sucks. It doesn't truly "suck", but compared to crusader and warblade, it sucks. Medium BAB, d8 HD, mediocre AC - that hurts too much despite the greater number of maneuvers. Also like warblade, you know a lot more maneuvers than you can ready so you waste some. In addition, the recovery method truly sucks, so that he must, must take Adaptive Style as a feat tax where as crusader and warblade could get by without theirs. I accept it as a monk alternative, and it does an excellent job at that. It doesn't "truly suck", but I would rather play a crusader or warblade when playing a Tome of Battle character. I do not mind at all, though, for using swordsage as a multiclass dip with crusader or warblade. I did so once for a crusader/swordsage/master of nine.

[ScrambledBrains]

With all due respect to everyone in this thread, I will say that Swordsages do not, "Suck", because they were never meant to be compared directly to either Crusaders or Warblades.

Each has a different niche, and a different method of contributing to combats. In pure one-on-one combats, I concede that Swordsages would probably lose first(Statistically speaking anyway.), because of the aformentioned lower hit die, armor, and sub-par recovery mechanic.

However, Swordsages are the most versitile ToB class, and the best of the three for stealth missions, which most parties have at least on occasion, just as Crusaders make killer tanks, and Warblades have the most going for them offensively. All different, all equal. :smallsmile:

Sincerely,

A lover of Swordsages

[NeoSeraphi]

With all due respect to everyone in this thread, I will say that Swordsages do not, "Suck", because they were never meant to be compared directly to either Crusaders or Warblades.

Each has a different niche, and a different method of contributing to combats. In pure one-on-one combats, I concede that Swordsages would probably lose first(Statistically speaking anyway.), because of the aformentioned lower hit die, armor, and sub-par recovery mechanic.

However, Swordsages are the most versitile ToB class, and the best of the three for stealth missions, which most parties have at least on occasion, just as Crusaders make killer tanks, and Warblades have the most going for them offensively. All different, all equal. :smallsmile:

Sincerely,

A lover of Swordsages

I agree with this statement completely. Each initiator plays in its own way, and when you play a swordsage to its strengths (stealth, mobility, Tripping and fire damage), it is pretty unmatched by other mundanes.

For the purpose of answering the OP's question, I would say that warblade is the "best", but that doesn't make the swordsage any less awesome than it is. The swordsage is a far better monk or rogue than either class ever was.

[Dumbledore lives]

Swordsages are pretty great when combined with rogue or assassin type characters, because of the invisibility and teleporting and such, making for awesome sneaky characters. They can also make characters with burning passion that shows itself in the form of fiery maneuvers which look awesome, or they can make a monk that literally tosses his foes around. They can make a number of builds mechanically possible when they really weren't before. They are weakest in terms of straight combat, but most non ToB builds could use a dash of them, though full BAB probably appreciate Warblade more.

[Wings of Peace]

In my opinion it goes Warblade > Crusader > Swordsage though Crusader and Warblade are within a hair of each other.

Warblade has a better list than Crusader imo, enough so that despite the better recovery mechanic it comes out ahead of Crusader. Swordsage has an excellent list but, even with Adaptive Style, I find it lackluster in comparison to the other two choices because of it's recovery mechanic.

[sreservoir]

x6 skill points at first level is pretty cool, too.

[gkathellar]

However, Swordsages are the most versitile ToB class, and the best of the three for stealth missions, which most parties have at least on occasion, just as Crusaders make killer tanks, and Warblades have the most going for them offensively.

... yes and no.

Despite their higher catalog of maneuvers known, Swordsages aren't that much more versatile than their counterparts, because maneuvers only do so many things and most Initiators are going to grab every one of those things that they can. Swordsages have more total maneuvers, but not necessarily more variety. Adding to this, of their three unique disciplines only Shadow Hand really adds versatility or stealth of any type — Setting Sun is about throwing guys, and Desert Wind is about begging your DM to make its energy type variable.

What they do have going for them is moment-to-moment trickiness. A swordsage can confidently stride into a fight with all his best utility maneuvers readied — he's got space for those and his offensive maneuvers all at once. But the poor recovery mechanic means they can only hold this niche at the beginning of a fight. Once they start using maneuvers, it takes way too much to get them back, which means even though a swordsage wants to be hurling out boosts and counters and stupid tricks like there's no tomorrow, he usually can't. They should really have gotten a recovery mechanic like the Crusader's.

[Hiro Protagonest]

x6 skill points at first level is pretty cool, too.

Nobody follows that typo.

[Godskook]

Actually, 1v1s solidly go to the Swordsages at most levels. In that context, they have stronger:
-relevant skill checks(Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Tumble)
-AC
-Saves(DM save maneuvers)
-Range

Basically, engagements happen at ranges that favor the Swordsage and when the Swordsage is ready for them. And given that nobody can heal damage without hitting something, the damage put on the other two sticks. Sure, the others have good disciplines, but when you can't make an attack roll, there's little relevance there while a swordsage has maneuvers relevant to those bad moments when the Crusader/Warblade actually gets a chance to go on the offensive.

Hell, by level 20, a straight-classed swordsage stands a fair chance to kill them both 1v2.

[gkathellar]

-Saves(DM save maneuvers)

Worth noting that the Warblade gets these as well and refreshes them way more easily, while the Crusader has other indestructibility tricks.


-Range

What?


Basically, engagements happen at ranges that favor the Swordsage and when the Swordsage is ready for them. And given that nobody can heal damage without hitting something, the damage put on the other two sticks.Sure, the others have good disciplines, but when you can't make an attack roll, there's little relevance there while a swordsage has maneuvers relevant to those bad moments when the Crusader/Warblade actually gets a chance to go on the offensive.


I'm not sure how you're figuring this. Because the Swordsage has stealth? That's not gonna help much against a Warblade (Uncanny Dodge) and Crusaders have plenty of survival tricks beyond self-healing. And I'm not clear on why you expect them to miss any more than the Swordsage, which has medium BAB. The swordsage gets some great tricks from Shadow Hand, sure, but it runs out of all its tricks fast while the Warblade and Crusader keep hurling their most powerful schtick at their opponents.


Hell, by level 20, a straight-classed swordsage stands a fair chance to kill them both 1v2.

I'd like to see some actual explanation of the specific tactics involved in doing this.

[Talionis]

It just depends what you want to do.

Crusaders are better at longer fights, pure survival. Random access to maneuvers is ok for some builds, but less good for others.

Warblades do slightly more damage, might be a little more flexible. If you do attack normally sometimes the recovery mechanic is easily the best.

Swordsage has access to some of the more interesting disciples, but the prestige classes can fix this advantage. they lose BaB. Getting weapon focus at level one can help to meet some prestige class requirements.


All are good for dips.

[Godskook]

Worth noting that the Warblade gets these as well and refreshes them w
ay more easily, while the Crusader has other indestructibility tricks.

True, but I'm not sure why I brought it up when Crusaders and Warblades can't really force saves on anything.


What?

Swordsages get a reasonable number of maneuvers usable at 60'. Inferno Blast(the strongest) deals a reliable 50 damage, 100 on a failed save. Shadow Hand teleport options allow them to get away to 120' reliably after using these attacks. Can't charge due to Balance on the Sky. Can't use ranged weapons well(and swordsages have the best AC anyways). And with HiPS(atttainable via non-UMD items), they can't even find you.


I'm not sure how you're figuring this. Because the Swordsage has stealth? That's not gonna help much against a Warblade (Uncanny Dodge) and Crusaders have plenty of survival tricks beyond self-healing. And I'm not clear on why you expect them to miss any more than the Swordsage, which has medium BAB. The swordsage gets some great tricks from Shadow Hand, sure, but it runs out of all its tricks fast while the Warblade and Crusader keep hurling their most powerful schtick at their opponents.

1.Uncanny Dodge doesn't help except against SA and keeping one's dex score. Since Warblades have non-great Dex, this is only a mild benefit and only against certain forms of attacks the Swordsage can use. Not really worth noting.

2.Immortal Fortitude is only going to stop 1 blow before becoming almost completely useless, as its nearly impossible to survive a DC 49 Fort save.

3.Recovery mechanics only matter if you can force a prolonged fight. Since stealth and tumble prevent the Warblade and Crusader from forcing one, the Swordsage is free to kite them at his leisure. They might get off retaliation during this kiting, but that's irrelevant to the value of recovery mechanics.

4.Shield Counter is the only other relevant Crusader defense, and even that doesn't work against ranged maneuvers.

5.I said 'make', not 'miss'. As in never declared. I can see the confusion, but I wasn't talking about the results of d20 rolls.


I'd like to see some actual explanation of the specific tactics involved in doing this.

Teleport kiting as outlined above is an easy one. Standard hide-attack-hide routines of the rogues is also good. If you decide to go for melee strikes, Drain Vitality deals guaranteed Con damage to Warblades(Oh hey, mettle on the Crusader, missed that for a sec). HiPS is easy enough to get via magic items.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Swordsages get a reasonable number of maneuvers usable at 60'. Inferno Blast(the strongest) deals a reliable 50 damage, 100 on a failed save. Shadow Hand teleport options allow them to get away to 120' reliably after using these attacks. Can't charge due to Balance on the Sky. Can't use ranged weapons well(and swordsages have the best AC anyways). And with HiPS(atttainable via non-UMD items), they can't even find you.

At the level you get Balance on the Sky, the warblade and crusader are either raptorans, dragonborn, or have some item for flight.

[NeoSeraphi]

...How do swordsages have the best AC again? A TWF warblade (with the required 19 Dexterity) wearing +5 mithral full plate and a +5 animated heavy steel shield has 33 AC. With a +5 ring of protection and a +5 amulet of natural armor, it's 43. And of course, warblades have Wall of Blades for when they're not flat-footed.

[Seerow]

My preferred class is Crusader. No action recovery is nice. Randomized maneuvers keeps things fun each round. At low levels having the self healing is really nice, and at higher level you have solid damage dealing options, plus a few good counters and boosts.

I also like RKV, not for the action economy breakage, or the Cleric casting, but because it gives you access to shadow hand maneuvers. Getting Move/Swift Action teleports on the Crusader recharge mechanic is amazing, especially when you're wearing heavy armor.

[FMArthur]

Martial Adept vs Martial Adept is a bad gauge, but if that's the case the Swordsage really does take it, and from the discipline everyone ignores. Setting Sun is the basically the anti-melee discipline: with Shifting Defense, Fool's Strike, Counter Charge and Baffling Defense, martial adepts in particular suffer against the Swordsage because they make more one-attack strikes than anyone else. The throwing strikes don't exactly make retaining an action economy against those attack-nullifying counters any easier.

It's not unbeatable, but for most martial adepts, a Setting Sun user is a massive headache to be fighting without backup. Many Shadow Hand maneuvers also support that frustrating defensive style. Both disciplines are exclusive.

[gkathellar]

Martial Adept vs Martial Adept is a bad gauge, but if that's the case the Swordsage really does take it, and from the discipline everyone ignores. Setting Sun is the basically the anti-melee discipline: with Shifting Defense, Fool's Strike, Counter Charge and Baffling Defense, martial adepts in particular suffer against the Swordsage because they make more one-attack strikes than anyone else. The throwing strikes don't exactly make retaining an action economy against those attack-nullifying counters any easier.

It's not unbeatable, but for most martial adepts, a Setting Sun user is a massive headache to be fighting without backup. Many Shadow Hand maneuvers also support that frustrating defensive style. Both disciplines are exclusive.

This is an excellent point, and it comes into play well before Tornado Throw, so we're not only talking about level 20 here.

[Draz74]

While all three are very close in total power, I'd have to say I think Crusader has a slight edge over the others, while Swordsage lags slightly. However, overall power is inversely related to build flexibility. All Crusaders are a little too much like each other for my taste (especially at low levels), while Warblade can fill a much larger number of character concepts and Swordsage even more so.


Martial Adept vs Martial Adept is a bad gauge, but if that's the case the Swordsage really does take it, and from the discipline everyone ignores. Setting Sun is the basically the anti-melee discipline: with Shifting Defense, Fool's Strike, Counter Charge and Baffling Defense, martial adepts in particular suffer against the Swordsage because they make more one-attack strikes than anyone else. The throwing strikes don't exactly make retaining an action economy against those attack-nullifying counters any easier.

It's not unbeatable, but for most martial adepts, a Setting Sun user is a massive headache to be fighting without backup. Many Shadow Hand maneuvers also support that frustrating defensive style. Both disciplines are exclusive.

Actually, 1v1s solidly go to the Swordsages at most levels.
"Solidly" might be an overstatement, but yes, Swordsages fare quite well in 1v1s with other martial adepts. As FMArthur said, though, it's mostly Setting Sun that gives them this edge.

A couple years ago, someone on the board built nine Level 20 martial adepts and faced them off against each other in a fun little tourney. (Setting Sun Swordsage, Desert Wind Swordsage, Shadow Hand Swordsage, Iron Heart Warblade, Diamond Mind Warblade, Tiger Claw Warblade, White Raven Crusader, Stone Dragon Crusader, and Devoted Spirit Crusader.) It wasn't a very scientific test -- too small a sample size, one imperfect strategist making all the characters' decisions, and characters that were constructed "to showcase the spirit and theme of each Discipline" rather than for ultimate optimization. Still, scientific or not, it was interesting how easily the Setting Sun Swordsage walked all over her competitors and easily took the trophy home.


And given that nobody can heal damage without hitting something,
Warblade with Iron Heart Endurance says hi.


Worth noting that the Warblade gets these as well and refreshes them way more easily,
Warblades have trouble allocating any of their precious few Readied Maneuvers for Diamond Mind Save-boosters. Swordsages can much better afford to Ready situational maneuvers like that.


True, but I'm not sure why I brought it up when Crusaders and Warblades can't really force saves on anything.
I wanted to argue with this, but the only decent example I can actually come up with is Swooping Dragon Strike. Which can have a nigh-impossible Save DC with a moderately optimized Jump check.


Can't charge due to Balance on the Sky.
I don't want to know what kind of sad optimization can't figure out how to charge a midair target by Level 20 ...


If you decide to go for melee strikes, Drain Vitality deals guaranteed Con damage to Warblades(Oh hey, mettle on the Crusader, missed that for a sec).
Stone Dragon is better than Shadow Hand for "guaranteed CON damage," and all adepts have access to it.


...How do swordsages have the best AC again? A TWF warblade (with the required 19 Dexterity) wearing +5 mithral full plate and a +5 animated heavy steel shield has 33 AC. With a +5 ring of protection and a +5 amulet of natural armor, it's 43. And of course, warblades have Wall of Blades for when they're not flat-footed.

Many Swordsages use Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse, so DEX becomes their main stat, and it certainly won't cap at 19. And their next best stat, WIS, also gets added to their AC. With both of those as well as light armor, it's very possible that Swordsage will end up with the best AC of the three.

'Course, at high levels, AC doesn't matter much.

[NeoSeraphi]

Many Swordsages use Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse, so DEX becomes their main stat, and it certainly won't cap at 19. And their next best stat, WIS, also gets added to their AC. With both of those as well as light armor, it's very possible that Swordsage will end up with the best AC of the three.

'Course, at high levels, AC doesn't matter much.

...Ignoring the fact that a good chunk of swordsages go unarmed and sacrifice their light armor proficiency, let's say you manage to swing a 36 (18+2 racial+5 level+5 inherent+6 Item) Dex. That leaves about 27 Wis (16 +5 inherent+6 item).

That gives you a base AC of 31, and no light armor you wear will allow you to keep your full Dex bonus (plus you expended quite a bit of your WBL already, so let's say you save the rest for your weapon and other items).

Even if you could get the +5 NA and the +5 ring of deflection, you're still 2 behind a warblade, and 4 behind a crusader who carries a +5 tower shield instead of a +5 animated steel shield.

And again, Wall of Blades. Much much easier to get your AC into the stratosphere when you can make it an opposed attack roll instead.

[gkathellar]

...Ignoring the fact that a good chunk of swordsages go unarmed and sacrifice their light armor proficiency,

What? Why would you ever do that, unless you really want to play a monk? Regular swordsage is actually better.


That gives you a base AC of 31, and no light armor you wear will allow you to keep your full Dex bonus (plus you expended quite a bit of your WBL already, so let's say you save the rest for your weapon and other items).

Are we assuming a Swordsage 20? If so, Bracers of Armor.

If not (especially if you play with fractional BAB) there's a compelling argument in fluff and crunch for going Shiba Disciple 1. That lets you focus on Wis over Dex, and keep that light armor.


And again, Wall of Blades. Much much easier to get your AC into the stratosphere when you can make it an opposed attack roll instead.

This is a very important point. Wall of Blades is awesome.

[NeoSeraphi]

What? Why would you ever do that, unless you really want to play a monk? Regular swordsage is actually better.


Several reasons. The aforementioned monkness, the fact that an unarmed strike is the only Trip weapon in the Shadow Hand discipline, so you can get some nice synergy between Shadow Blade and the Mighty Throw maneuvers, as well as easier qualifications for Master of Nine.



Are we assuming a Swordsage 20? If so, Bracers of Armor.

If not (especially if you play with fractional BAB) there's a compelling argument in fluff and crunch for going Shiba Disciple 1. That lets you focus on Wis over Dex, and keep that light armor.


Two +5 tomes already costs you something close to 275 grand. How much is WBL for a 20th level character anyway?

And I won't comment on your Shiba Disciple suggestion. I'm sure it's valid, but I don't play with 3.0 material, even if it's officially allowed by WotC.



This is a very important point. Wall of Blades is awesome.

Indeed. Making an attack roll your AC is like making a skill check your damage roll. Oh warblade, you have such lovely mechanics.

[gkathellar]

One thing, though: Crusaders with heavy PrC use do it better. Crusader/Master of Nine in particular is incredible.

Deck a Crusader out with PrCs that nab them Iron Heart or Shadow Hand or Setting Sun or whatever, and the Crusader will use those disciplines better than their native wielders. The Crusader recovery mechanic is so fantastic that even without a full-fledged Idiot Crusader, it blows just about everything else out of the water when it gets access to their best maneuvers.

[Draz74]

And again, Wall of Blades. Much much easier to get your AC into the stratosphere when you can make it an opposed attack roll instead.

Wall of Blades is awesome, but it isn't AC. I was responding to a question specifically about AC, not about overall defensive capabilities. (And Wall of Blades definitely can't be used against even half of the attacks you're likely to get aimed at you in a 1v1.)

My point was that, with equal amounts of money spent on AC-boosting items, light armor +DEX +WIS is likely to get the Swordsage to a higher AC than whatever the Warblade and Crusader are pulling off.

[Godskook]

At the level you get Balance on the Sky, the warblade and crusader are either raptorans, dragonborn, or have some item for flight.

"Class and Class are either Race, Race, or Item"

You'll note I avoided the use of non-class assumptions in my arguments. And what little I did use was incredibly easy to fit into the goal build. Items of flight are often quite expensive, and racial options are often very restricted.


...How do swordsages have the best AC again? A TWF warblade (with the required 19 Dexterity) wearing +5 mithral full plate and a +5 animated heavy steel shield has 33 AC. With a +5 ring of protection and a +5 amulet of natural armor, it's 43. And of course, warblades have Wall of Blades for when they're not flat-footed.

1.Assuming 18 Dex and 17 Wis, all level ups in Dex, and relevant items, the Swordsage is rocking 10 Base, 12 Dex, 9 Wis, 6 Armor, 5 Natural Armor, 5 Deflection, or 37/47 AC compared to your example. For reference, the armor is Gnomish Twistcloth. Without it, RAW is that clothing is treated as armor with a +0 mod. Enchant this with for a +5 armor bonus.

2.Potions of Shield(and maybe G.Mage Armor if you need it) work in a pinch.

3.With a Swordsage's ability to hide, the assumption of un-flat-footedness is a bad one.

4.Warblades are more frequently THF than TWF

5.It should also be pointed out that the only penalty to wearing unproficiency is ACP related penalties. Getting an armor with 0 ACP means no effective penalty.


Warblade with Iron Heart Endurance says hi.

Oh hai. Didn't know that one was there. Kinda shocking, honestly.


I don't want to know what kind of sad optimization can't figure out how to charge a midair target by Level 20 ...

As mentioned above, while there's ways to handle flight, there's not any(that I know of) that can be found within the actual classes.


Stone Dragon is better than Shadow Hand for "guaranteed CON damage," and all adepts have access to it.

That wasn't really a point I was making, but more of one of many methods within the point.


...Ignoring the fact that a good chunk of swordsages go unarmed and sacrifice their light armor proficiency, let's say you manage to swing a 36 (18+2 racial+5 level+5 inherent+6 Item) Dex. That leaves about 27 Wis (16 +5 inherent+6 item).

You don't sacrifice your proficiency, you dip out for it.


That gives you a base AC of 31, and no light armor you wear will allow you to keep your full Dex bonus (plus you expended quite a bit of your WBL already, so let's say you save the rest for your weapon and other items).

Gnomish Twistcloth.


And again, Wall of Blades. Much much easier to get your AC into the stratosphere when you can make it an opposed attack roll instead.

Hard to use when the Swordsage is always running around while you're flatfooted.


Two +5 tomes already costs you something close to 275 grand. How much is WBL for a 20th level character anyway?

760,000 gp

[Acanous]

I'd actually go Crusader>Warblade>Swordsage. At low levels, the crusader is going to end either of the other two without ever actually suffering damage. Mid range, Warblades really come to the fore, but due to recovery mechanics a Crusader would still take the fight. The Swordsage is continually difficult to manage, hard to optimize, and unlike the tier ones he was intended to mimic, he's as limited to the one book as the other two classes are.

at level 20, I can't see the Swordsage getting past a Crusader's Immortal Fortitude and Mettle. Not if we're talking similar degrees of optimization.

[sonofzeal]

I'm a bit of a fan of Swordsages, purely for the number and variety of maneuvers they get. Warblades get a better chassis and recovery mechanism, but the anemic number of maneuvers readied really puts a crimp on things. I love my boosts and counters, but if Warblades are investing Readied Maneuvers on those then they'll only have room for maybe a strike or two, which seems to defeat the point of using ToB in the first place. A large enough pool of Readied Maneuvers covers a multitude of sins.

[Greenish]

I'd say all three are close enough to each other that the differences in performance will almost certainly result from other variables than class.

[AmberVael]

the fact that an unarmed strike is the only Trip weapon in the Shadow Hand discipline...

No love for Spiked Chain? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#chainSpiked) Two handed reach tripping disarming Shadow Hand weapon?

Seriously, I love putting Spiked Chains on my Swordsages. All kinds of fun to be had there. Does cost a feat though, so you know, there is an argument for unarmed strike.



Anyway, Swordsage is definitely my favorite, as they outclass Warblade and Crusader by far for most maneuvers known. A maneuver every level satisfies me much more than one every other level.

Plus, with six disciplines it can get into Master of Nine without a dip or use of a feat on martial study, which is cool.

I don't know that I'd call them the strongest, but they can get their hands on a lot more things than the other two classes, and can ready about twice as many maneuvers by the end- and versatility is one of the biggest things to have in D&D. I might not call them the strongest, but I think I'd question those who say they lag behind the other two.

[NeoSeraphi]

No love for Spiked Chain? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#chainSpiked) Two handed reach tripping disarming Shadow Hand weapon?

Seriously, I love putting Spiked Chains on my Swordsages. All kinds of fun to be had there. Does cost a feat though, so you know, there is an argument for unarmed strike.



Exotic Weapon Proficiency has a prerequisite of +1 BAB, same as Weapon Finesse. Since you don't have any bonus feats, a single-classed swordsage would need to wait til level 6 to use a spiked chain effectively (unless they're a Strength-based swordsage, in which case, more power to you I guess)

[AmberVael]

The point was more about Unarmed Strike not being the only trip weapon for Shadow Hand, than whether Spiked Chain is the most optimal choice for a swordsage.

[Godskook]

at level 20, I can't see the Swordsage getting past a Crusader's Immortal Fortitude and Mettle. Not if we're talking similar degrees of optimization.

There's 2 really easy ways past Immortal Fortitude:

1.Crusaders can't heal without attacking. Deny them attacks and you can then provoke an unbeatable Fort save out of Immortal Fortitude(DC 99 bare minimum with a failed reflex save from the Crusader, DC 49 min otherwise).

2.Overwhelm the stance's Fort save restriction. It only allows 3 saves per turn, and a Swordsage can easily get off enough attacks in a round to reliably overwhelm it, even if the Crusader passes all 3 saves(hard but doable).

In either case, the Swordsage retreats to an untargetable distance, recovers maneuvers and tries again within 2 rounds, leaving the Crusader no time to do anything more than pray.

And as for Mettle, its mildly helpful, but it doesn't effectively neutralize any of the Swordsage's actual strengths in a 1v1 setting.

[NeoSeraphi]

The point was more about Unarmed Strike not being the only trip weapon for Shadow Hand, than whether Spiked Chain is the most optimal choice for a swordsage.

Sorry. My original point was that unarmed swordsage was useful for a character who wanted to fight with both Mighty Throw and Shadow Blade, even if the spiked chain also happens to qualify, it doesn't seem to work well enough to justify taking it over unarmed swordsage.

[Draz74]

I love my boosts and counters, but if Warblades are investing Readied Maneuvers on those then they'll only have room for maybe a strike or two, which seems to defeat the point of using ToB in the first place. A large enough pool of Readied Maneuvers covers a multitude of sins.

Hence why I LOVE Warblade / Master of Nine builds. Even more than Crusader / Master of Nine (which is also fabulous).

[sreservoir]

Nobody follows that typo.

now, that book has published errata which doesn't change that, what makes you think it's a typo?

(but seriously, it's actually in the part before the errata turns into something else entirely. wotc errata sucks as much as the first pass at editing.)

[Greenish]

Sorry. My original point was that unarmed swordsage was useful for a character who wanted to fight with both Mighty Throw and Shadow Blade, even if the spiked chain also happens to qualify, it doesn't seem to work well enough to justify taking it over unarmed swordsage.Who says you need free hands to throw people around? Not the rules. :smalltongue:

[NeoSeraphi]

Who says you need free hands to throw people around? Not the rules. :smalltongue:

It says you need to make a Trip attack. You can't make a Trip attack with a non-Trip weapon. Saying you can use Mighty Throw while you're wielding a pair of kukris because it says you need to make a Trip attack, but doesn't specify you need to use a Trip weapon, is like saying you can use Mountain Tombstone Strike to deal Con damage to an undead, because it just says you deal Constitution damage, and nowhere does it specify that you have to use it on a creature who is vulnerable to Con damage.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It says you need to make a Trip attack. You can't make a Trip attack with a non-Trip weapon. Saying you can use Mighty Throw while you're wielding a pair of kukris because it says you need to make a Trip attack, but doesn't specify you need to use a Trip weapon, is like saying you can use Mountain Tombstone Strike to deal Con damage to an undead, because it just says you deal Constitution damage, and nowhere does it specify that you have to use it on a creature who is vulnerable to Con damage.

I think you can make a trip check while wielding a non-trip weapon, you just can't use the weapon for it (for example, if you're wielding a trip weapon and don't have Improved Trip and provoke an AoO, you can choose to drop the weapon instead of take damage if the AoO hits).

Also, I don't see where it states unarmed strikes are trip weapons.

[The Underlord]

As far as unarmed goes, I'd like to point out that you don't get impr. unarmed strike, so you still need to take it.

[Helldog]

Also, I don't see where it states unarmed strikes are trip weapons.
Trip is an unarmed touch attack.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip

[gkathellar]

I think you can make a trip check while wielding a non-trip weapon, you just can't use the weapon for it (for example, if you're wielding a trip weapon and don't have Improved Trip and provoke an AoO, you can choose to drop the weapon instead of take damage if the AoO hits).

Also, I don't see where it states unarmed strikes are trip weapons.

NeoSeraphi is correct, according to the SRD. You need to make a melee touch attack for the trip, which can only be done unarmed or with a trip weapon. Without Improved Unarmed Strike, this melee touch attack provokes an AoO if done unarmed.

[tyckspoon]

As far as unarmed goes, I'd like to point out that you don't get impr. unarmed strike, so you still need to take it.

Assuming you're talking about the Unarmed Swordsage variant, Imp. Unarmed Strike is part of the Monk Unarmed Damage feature.

[The Underlord]

They don't actually get the class feature, just the damage progression.

give the swordsage the monk's unarmed damage progression and remove his light armor profiencey
So no "Unarmed Strike" ability.

[Ivellius]

And Monks can make unarmed strikes with their hands full. For some reason I feel like the PHB said other classes could do that too, but I'm AFB right now.

[Hiro Protagonest]

And Monks can make unarmed strikes with their hands full. For some reason I feel like the PHB said other classes could do that too, but I'm AFB right now.

IUS states that you can make unarmed strikes with any part of your body. The monk Unarmed Strike feature states that, unlike others, monks can use any part of their body to make an unarmed strike, and expicitly states that you can do so with your hands full.

This convoluted mess is the result of a lack of communication between writers, and between writers and editors.

[FMArthur]

So... if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, could you just wield a greatsword and take a hand off of it to make unarmed strikes when you want to use throwing maneuvers?

[Hiro Protagonest]

So... if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, could you just wield a greatsword and take a hand off of it to make unarmed strikes when you want to use throwing maneuvers?

Yeah.

You can't be a dex-based swordsage this way, but I'm pretty sure you have to use strength for the Setting Sun throws anyway.

[FMArthur]

No, Dex works just fine for Setting Sun throws since they all let you use whichever one you like. Counter Charge even forces your foe to use the one you did, so that's probably an advantage for Dex-based Swordsages.

[Godskook]

They don't actually get the class feature, just the damage progression.

So no "Unarmed Strike" ability.

I like how you mis-quoted the text's exact wording in a tangent debating the text's exact wording. The actual wording says "Unarmed Strike Progression" not "Unarmed Damage Progression", so either (A)You get the feat cause its part of the class feature called Unarmed Strike which progresses your damage, or (B)You get nothing, cause monks don't have anything called "Unarmed Strike Progression". Sane people choose (A). Sane people also realize that the section isn't even intended to be thorough enough to be subject to RAW debates and apply a bit of common sense when using it.

[MeeposFire]

I like how you mis-quoted the text's exact wording in a tangent debating the text's exact wording. The actual wording says "Unarmed Strike Progression" not "Unarmed Damage Progression", so either (A)You get the feat cause its part of the class feature called Unarmed Strike which progresses your damage, or (B)You get nothing, cause monks don't have anything called "Unarmed Strike Progression". Sane people choose (A). Sane people also realize that the section isn't even intended to be thorough enough to be subject to RAW debates and apply a bit of common sense when using it.

It pays to realize that the adaptions are not fully realized. They are suggestions not fully designed alternatives. People realize this quickly with the arcane SS but the unarmed one is also incomplete in the description though it is obviously closer and easier to realize.