Are Tier 1 Characters Actually Tier 2?

[Tarvon000]

So I've recently become acquainted with the tier system, and I noticed that it seems to assume that the tier 1 characters are only better than the tier 2s because they can prepare a larger number of spells at the expense of being unable to cast them spontaneously. But being able to prepare any spell you want is only useful if you know what encounters you're going to face beforehand. If you don't, than spontaneous casting is more useful. Besides, Tier 1 spellcasters also cast fewer spells per day than spontaneous casters. Am I missing something, or are Tier 1 casters really Tier 2?

[Tarvon000]

So I've recently become acquainted with the tier system, and I noticed that the tier 1 characters seem to only be ranked higher than the tier 2s because they can prepare a larger number of spells at the expense of being unable to cast them spontaneously. But being able to prepare any spell you want is only useful if you know what encounters you're going to face beforehand. If you don't, than spontaneous casting is more useful. Besides, Tier 1 spellcasters also cast fewer spells per day than spontaneous casters. Am I missing something, or are Tier 1 casters really Tier 2?

[Adrayll]

You're missing something. A wizard, unlike a sorcerer, (just as a simple example) can potentially learn any number of spells. Sure, he only prepares a selection of those per day (which can be increased in versatility via uncanny foresight, divination abuse, and the like), but if push comes to shove, the wizard can always come back tomorrow with a brand new selection of spells specifically tailored to the situation. Same goes for any T1.

[Kurald Galain]

But being able to prepare any spell you want is only useful if you know what encounters you're going to face beforehand.

That's what the Divination school is for.

[DonDuckie]

Get attacked -> teleport out of there -> prepare -> attack

somewhat simplified, but that is it.

It also not about how many spells he can cast per day, it's how many he can choose from every day, usually a single casting fixes the problem.

The tier system describes to what extent a class can solve an unspecified problem. Tier 2s have the same potential to solve certain problems as tier 1s, tier 1s can solve all problems.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you have even a general idea of what you're facing ("a goblinoid army is on the march. Ogres and giants have been spotted among them") then prepared is good (for example, there's likely some trolls among their ranks, so prepare some fire and acid spells).

As for the "less spells per day" Focused Specialist says hi. Same spells per day as sorcerer, a lot more known, and three schools banned, but Spell Versatility helps quite a bit if you're a transmuter (ban illusion, but still get Invisibility, ban necromancy, but still get Ray of Enfeeblement or Enervation, ban evocation, but still get Wall of Force).

[Randomguy]

In 3.5, there's a spell to solve any problem.

Tier 2's may or may not have that spell.

A Tier 1 has doesn't have that spell, he will after 8 hours rest.

[Eldan]

One big part of being a higher-level Tier 1 is that you choose the location and time of the battle, not your enemy. You can scry on your low-tier enemy and teleport to him, but you can protect yourself from the same tactic. You can change hte battlefield to be to your advantage. And you can, by divination, know beforehand what you will face, and therefore prepare the right things for that situation.

See, when you know you will face enemy X, the wizard can prepare spells Y to Z. Say, you head into a undead-heavy area, he prepares protection spells aginst level and ability drain and negative energy. The sorcerer either knows these spells, or he doesn't, so often, he will have to rely on non-ideal solutions to a problem. The wizard can get them and prepare them. A divine caster is even worse: They don't even need to scribe it in their spellbook. They can just get the Spell Compendium and prepare everything in it.

[Rubik]

In 3.5, there's a spell to solve any problem.

Tier 2's may or may not have that spell.

A Tier 1 has doesn't have that spell, he will after 8 hours rest.Or after 15 minutes, if he's a wizard, or immediately, if he optimizes well.

[Radar]

To put it simply: Tier 2 classes have the same power potential as Tier 1, but once you decide on your spells known, that's it. Tier 1 classes can change their focus overnight, which gives them unparalelled versatility.

[B1okHead]

Also, if you look at clerics or druids they don't have to choose any spells known, they know the entire spell list and can prepare from that every day.

[Tarvon000]

One big part of being a higher-level Tier 1 is that you choose the location and time of the battle, not your enemy. You can scry on your low-tier enemy and teleport to him, but you can protect yourself from the same tactic. You can change hte battlefield to be to your advantage. And you can, by divination, know beforehand what you will face, and therefore prepare the right things for that situation.

That's if you know who your enemy is in the first place. Anything powerful enough to oppose a high-level character is going to have access to spells that stop divination, whether it can cast them itself, has an ally that can cast them, or has magic items it can use to achieve the same effect. If it has none of these things, then it's probably a wandering monster, which you can't scry on anyway because you don't know what to look for.

As for teleportation spells, only arcane spellcasters have them (other than Plane Shift, which can end very badly), and last I checked a wizard only knows a handful more spells than a sorcerer (All/6*/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/8 rather than 9/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 for a 20th-level or higher character). Besides, there are tons of ways to block those as well (antimagic field, dimensional anchor, dimensional lock, and the beholder's antimagic cone all spring to mind, and we haven't even left the PHB and MM1 yet).

*Assuming an Intelligence score of 15 at 1st level.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That's if you know who your enemy is in the first place. Anything powerful enough to oppose a high-level character is going to have access to spells that stop divination, whether it can cast them itself, has an ally that can cast them, or has magic items it can use to achieve the same effect. If it has none of these things, then it's probably a wandering monster, which you can't scry on anyway because you don't know what to look for.

As for teleportation spells, only arcane spellcasters have them (other than Plane Shift, which can end very badly), and last I checked a wizard only knows a handful more spells than a sorcerer (All/6*/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/8 rather than 9/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 for a 20th-level or higher character). Besides, there are tons of ways to block those as well (antimagic field, dimensional anchor, dimensional lock, and the beholder's antimagic cone all spring to mind, and we haven't even left the PHB and MM1 yet).

*Assuming an Intelligence score of 15 at 1st level.

...A handful? Did you actually do the numbers? It is ridiculously cheap to buy new spells, you could get every spell in core and still have at least half your WBL left over. And that's without including the awesome options the SpC has.

As for the divination, Scrying is actually going to see the least use. Legend Lore and Contact Other Plane are both far better at obtaining information about things.

For the AMF, I use the run action to get out of range, before springing my Contingent Dimension Door (activated when I leave a place that prevents me from teleportng) which I prepared for something like this.

[Kurald Galain]

As for teleportation spells, only arcane spellcasters have them (other than Plane Shift, which can end very badly),
Teleport is in the Travel domain for clerics.


and last I checked a wizard only knows a handful more spells than a sorcerer
Last time I checked, wizards have no upper limit to how many spells they can learn.

[Eldan]

Actually, that's the spells you get for free from levelling up.

The wizard can also write more spells into his spellbook by buying them. The rules are very explicit about this. Find a scroll or defeat an enemy wizard, and you have more spells.

[Yora]

That's what the Divination school is for.
Which, as has been quite frequently demonstrated, does not actually work. At least, when asked to show how it is supposed to be done, nobody ever could give an actual answer.

[Frozen_Feet]

Tier 1 and 2 are roughly equal in raw power. The difference is that Tier 1 can apply overwhelming power to more (nearly limitless) different situations. Yes, it might take more preparation, but Tier 1 signifies potential more than it does practical efficiency for any given situation. For example, a Wizard can have the wrong spells prepared - but it's not mechanically precluded that he could have the right ones.

[Icedaemon]

Yup (to Boneok's comment, not the title). I am not at all an optimizer, preferring to choose feats and such by RP reasons, but even I see clerics and druids as stupendously overpowered.

[tyckspoon]

Which, as has been quite frequently demonstrated, does not actually work. At least, when asked to show how it is supposed to be done, nobody ever could give an actual answer.

Contact Other Plane can do it, RAW, but it has significant issues in actual application (primarily because it involves badgering the DM for information he may not actually have yet, as well as raising weird predetermination issues when you ask him what you'll be doing next week in game.) Other than that, no, most divinations only provide information about a specific place, creature, or thing, and not generic future knowledge. Those more limited divinations are however very good for scouting and knowledge gathering about the things they apply to- if you know that the party is planning to go through, say, a specific cave, or raid a particular dungeon/fortress/what-have-you, you can use things like Prying Eyes, Scrying, and chained Clairvoyances to gather information about it and then go in with appropriate spells. It does require having a spare day to rearrange your spells, but it's a day you can get fairly often if your party is taking a more proactive approach to its goals (ie, going out and attacking their problems instead of waiting for the plot hooks to ambush them.)

(Or you can skip all that, go Spell Mastery -> Uncanny Forethought to get Int. mod spontaneous castings from your entire spellbook, and make the Sorcerer cry.)

[Kurald Galain]

Which, as has been quite frequently demonstrated, does not actually work. At least, when asked to show how it is supposed to be done, nobody ever could give an actual answer.

Wait, what? Are you saying that the 30-odd divination spells here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm) don't work? As in, don't do anything? I have no idea where you're coming from. Could you please tell me where this has been "frequently demonstrated"?

[Con_Brio1993]

Tier 1 aren't necessarily Tier 1 based on power, which seems to be what you are thinking.

It is power + flexibility.

Sorcerers might have more power in a given situation since they don't need to prepare spells, but their spell list is limited. Wizards potentially have access to every Arcane spell.

A Sorcerer may fare better if he gets attacked by random monsters during a stroll in the park, but when given any amount of prior knowledge and preparation time a Wizard will have better tools.

[Eldan]

Actually, not even then, necessarily. A wizard can more easily afford spending space on niche spells, so he can have some of the most obscure long-term buffs up the sorcerer might not have. And contingency, though I guess a sorcerer needs that too.

[The_Snark]

I'll leave the divination debate alone to point out another area in which prepared casters are stronger: all-day buff spells.

A high-level wizard has a lot of all-day buffs at his disposal: Mind Blank, Greater Anticipate Teleport, Superior Resistance, Greater Mage Armor, Elemental Body, Heart of Air/Earth/Fire/Water, Overland Flight, Contingency, False Life... and that's just the spells with hour/level duration (or longer) that I can think of off the top of my head. Add in Extend Spell, and you can have 10 minutes/level spells running all day.

You don't need to cast these spells multiple times per day (unless they're dispelled, but this is surprisingly rare). A sorcerer or other spontaneous caster simply can't afford to learn many of these spells; they might pick a few of the best buff spells, but they just don't have enough spells known to acquire all the buff spells they might want. A prepared caster, on the other hand, need only set aside a single spell slot for each one of them.

Spontaneous casters can cast a few spells repeatedly, and if those spells are well-chosen they can do very well. Prepared casters can instead choose to have a wide variety of spells at their disposal. I happen to prefer spontaneous casters myself, but having played some of each, this is a definite advantage.

[VestigeArcanist]

Also consider the restriction that, say, a Sorcerer has. Because of his Low level number of spells known, every single one of those spells has to be as practical in as many situations as possible. Now this isn't a bad thing when you are in the think of it, but when down time comes, the Wizards and Clerics are busy crafting wondrous items and animating the dead, using spells which are situational and not day to day and thus not on the Sorcerer's Spells known list.

For that reason, Divination spells are not often picked by Sorcerers, as they will probably used, at most, once or twice a day.

Nevertheless, it doesn't mean that Tier 2's can't defeat a Tier 1 class. Enough well picked combat spells may topple a Tier 1.

[Frozen_Feet]

Wait, what? Are you saying that the 30-odd divination spells here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm) don't work? As in, don't do anything? I have no idea where you're coming from. Could you please tell me where this has been "frequently demonstrated"?

He means that none of those 30 spells, not even in combination, actually allow the Wizard to know the future and exact details of the opposition to the extent they're often claimed to.

In addition, many of the combinations come online really frickin' late, as in, past level 13. You ever heard how most games stop before 10?

Let's take Contact Other Plane as an example. Most people I've seen advocating abuse of that spell take a very questionable reading of Take 10 rules to avoid the 5% per casting to make your caster useless for weeks to an end. They also utilize ungodly amount of questions to pry information from the DM, meaning they'll be sitting there hours to an end both in and out of game due to 10 minute casting time and the time it actually takes the GM to answer the questions. Even better, the longer the chain of questions, the more points of failure it has, and let's not forget that every minute the caster spends sitting on his ass is another minute for the answers to become obsolete.

And then there's the fact that as the game reaches higher levels, more and more opponents are capable casters of themselves, meaning all those potential counter-divinations now form another point of failure. Gods are the most egregious, since they can sense events relating to themselves weeks to the past or future, and trivially block divination efforts of even other gods. How many games are there where there's at least one divine being who doesn't want the players to succeed? Yeah, if the GM actually bothers using the Divine ruleset, forms of divination reliant on higher beings (CoP, Commune, Divination...) are not just non-guaranteed to succeed, they are guaranteed to fail when they'd matter the most.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He means that none of those 30 spells, not even in combination, actually allow the Wizard to know the future and exact details of the opposition to the extent they're often claimed to.

In addition, many of the combinations come online really frickin' late, as in, past level 13. You ever heard how most games stop before 10?

Let's take Contact Other Plane as an example. Most people I've seen advocating abuse of that spell take a very questionable reading of Take 10 rules to avoid the 5% per casting to make your caster useless for weeks to an end. They also utilize ungodly amount of questions to pry information from the DM, meaning they'll be sitting there hours to an end both in and out of game due to 10 minute casting time and the time it actually takes the GM to answer the questions. Even better, the longer the chain of questions, the more points of failure it has, and let's not forget that every minute the caster spends sitting on his ass is another minute for the answers to become obsolete.

And then there's the fact that as the game reaches higher levels, more and more opponents are capable casters of themselves, meaning all those potential counter-divinations now form another point of failure. Gods are the most egregious, since they can sense events relating to themselves weeks to the past or future, and trivially block divination efforts of even other gods. How many games are there where there's at least one divine being who doesn't want the players to succeed? Yeah, if the GM actually bothers using the Divine ruleset, forms of divination reliant on higher beings (CoP, Commune, Divination...) are not just non-guaranteed to succeed, they are guaranteed to fail when they'd matter the most.

The problem is that you are demanding a level of detail which is entirely unnecessary.

You don't need to know about a small horde of goblins and ogres and trolls, and you certainly don't care exactly how many of them are in said horde. That's trivial to any wizard of any remote level equivalent to the encounter. Heck, a couple of Stinking Clouds, or even easier, a single Cloudkill spell will take care of most of that in one shot. Okay, granted, knowing about regen that needs fire or acid to bypass is kind of handy, just in case you really don't bother with any blastomancy at all, but that's a small problem that can be taken care of with a simple flint and steel.

You're wanting to ask for specifics and harass or annoy a GM, when it is completely unnecessary. You see, the true difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer isn't that a Wizard can tailor his ENTIRE spell list every day, it's that he can know in advance when the usual tricks are ineffective, and plan accordingly.

For example, most arcane casters, sorcerer or wizard, will try first for Save or Lose or Just Plain Lose conditions. Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, Enervation... that kind of thing. Any reasonably prepared arcane caster will have these resources on hand, because they're so good at solving large numbers of common problems. And that works for day-to-day problems like goblin invasions, giant raids, and the occasional dragon that gets its scales in a bunch.

Nothing that really requires any divination to be prepared for, because you're already going to prepare for it.

Where the Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes diverge, however, and why Tier 1 classes are more difficult to kill on an entirely higher magnitude of difficulty, is where they can and should apply their divinations.

For example:

Wizards and Sorcerers tend to prepare your 'staple' spells that just about every arcane caster agrees is useful. A Wizard, however, before he prepares his spells, can do things like this:

"Do I have a good chance of running into anything that is immune to <save or lose effects that I use in my normal setup>?"

If the answer is 'no', then don't worry about it. Go on with your day, secure in the knowledge that whatever you run into, you can shut it down with minimal problems.

If 'yes', then "Do I have a chance of running into anything that is immune to, or can trivially avoid, all of them?"

If 'no', then you need to make sure you simply have a variety of save or lose effects, and be aware that if you run low on the ones that are working today, you may need to call an early camp.

If 'yes', then you know you have a potentially serious problem. This is where the power level between Tier 2 and Tier 1 really shows itself. Even if a Sorcerer was aware of this, there would be very little he could do about the situation. A Wizard, however, can change his setup to take care of these situations.

A simple solution would be using a more powerful divination to determine what it is that you have a chance of running into that is immune to everything you normally throw, then determine the weaknesses of that threat, and make sure you have some on hand to deal with it if it comes up.

The other thing a Wizard can do with divination, which makes them magnitudes more difficult to kill is things like this:

"Is there a being of Legendary power or greater [Legendary being defined as
at least 11th level by the Legend Lore spell] which is actively plotting against me or my party?"

This is basically your 'BBEG detector' spell. This is actually sometimes helpful for a GM, since it is very frustrating, as a GM, to set up an elaborate plot by the BBEG, and the PC's keep missing all the clues about it. Also, this sort of opponent, who is actively plotting against you, is quite possibly the most dangerous threat you will encounter.

If the answer is 'yes', then let the party know that someone's plotting nefariously against at least you if not the whole party. Full stop on your normal adventuring mode and enter 'BBEG preparation mode'.

Use more divinations to get enough specifics about the thing plotting against you so you can use even better divinations against it. Things like Legend Lore go a LONG way to figuring out more exactly what it is. From there, things like Discern Location can give you a rough location for Scrying to pinpoint for things like Port n Pwn tactics. It can also give you advanced warning about defenses against such, and other tactics you might use.

If you can't get any info about the target, you know that it's got some blockage against divinations, either Mind Blank or high enough CL Nondetection or something like that. That's when Stuff Got Serious, and you need to treat this threat as Extremely Dangerous and go into full Paranoid Mode.

Getting specifics about a single thing is relatively straightforward, and it will be things your GM already knows, so you won't piss him off nearly as much as if you keep asking him stupid detailed things about random daily encounters.

However, knowing if something is going to be immune to some or all of your standard staple spells, and knowing which ones are probably not going to be effective that day, makes a Wizard much more powerful than a Sorcerer, because he will never encounter a situation in which he cannot do anything. A Sorcerer, at least theoretically, might encounter that situation.

[Kurald Galain]

He means that none of those 30 spells, not even in combination, actually allow the Wizard to know the future and exact details of the opposition to the extent they're often claimed to.

Oh, I'm sure that most stories of how wizards are omnipotent are vastly exaggerated.

That said, you don't need a whole lot of scrying to pick your spells on. Suppose you're going to the Volcanic Lair of the Pyrodragon? Then the wizard who normally preps Fireball instead picks one of his favorite ice spells. On the other hand, the sorcerer who learned Fireball is stuck with it. It's not a stretch for the characters to know whether they're headed into a city, forest, dungeon, or glacier today.

[Madwand]

Am I missing something, or are Tier 1 casters really Tier 2?

Since most of the people get you answer about wizards..

Let's there be a cleric.

With one spell and couple of feats (hi, DMM!) he can be a figher (one spell mind you!) and get spells, change them and never need to learn like wizards (so no risk of "scarity" in scrolls on higher level). He can change himself into combat moster, provide healing and (at higher levels) necessary protection/buffs for party.


Oh, I'm sure that most stories of how wizards are omnipotent are vastly exaggerated.

Wizard omnipotency is reverse proportional to DM's sanity. :smalltongue:

[RaggedAngel]

Oh, I'm sure that most stories of how wizards are omnipotent are vastly exaggerated.

That said, you don't need a whole lot of scrying to pick your spells on. Suppose you're going to the Volcanic Lair of the Pyrodragon? Then the wizard who normally preps Fireball instead picks one of his favorite ice spells. On the other hand, the sorcerer who learned Fireball is stuck with it. It's not a stretch for the characters to know whether they're headed into a city, forest, dungeon, or glacier today.

This.

The amount of times that a Wizard will actually have perfect knowledge of the upcoming day in a real, non-hypothetical game is approximately zero, unless they're a DMPC or the DM just wants to move on to the next plotline.

The amount of times that the Wizard's ability to know niche spells and learn new ones quickly will come up is more or less equal to the number of different enemies you'll face. Command Undead is a crappy choice for a Sorcerer, but preparing it before you fight a Necromancer will save a Wizard a lot of trouble.

[Manateee]

An Arcane Eye by a level 9 caster can give a cursory investigation to half a mile of dungeon, giving time to quickly and appropriately fill a couple open spell slots. Prying Eyes can continuously give a wizard a rundown on a 1 mile radius of terrain. Neither are perfect, and both are subject to other casters' shenanigans, but they both provide a lot of information and neither meaningfully impede gameplay.

These aren't as powerful of summaries as the 20 question Contact other Planes, but they're easy tools to whip out at the table to get a general idea of what needs to fill some of the Wizard's unprepared spell slots.

And that's not to mention party members. Skillmonkeys/scouts do have some weight to pull.

The perpetually perfectly prepared wizard is a bit misleading, because that doesn't really happen. But it's a much catchier and flashier image than the almost-always adequately prepared wizard, which is fairly trivial to do.

[Mystify]

Look at it this way:
Sorcerers know fewer spells than the wizard can prepare. The wizard could prepare every spell your sorcerer knows, and then some. Therefore,the only flexibility the sorcerer gets is when a spell is needed multiple times. And spells that are commonly needed on a regular basic could be stuck in a staff, so the sorcerer will need to know more frequent use spells that are conveniently staffable.

Additionally, there is a subset of spells that you only need to cast 1/day or less. If a sorcerer wants it, he has to burn one of his few spells known on it, and hence have less flexibility with the rest of his spells. The wizard can prepare one copy(or not, if you don't need it that day), and have all of his other spell slots free, and it doesn't impact his spells known in any significant manner.

[sonofzeal]

I agreed prepared casting is usually overrated.

- sufficient foreknowledge rarely exists in actual campaigns

- retreating and waiting a day is rarely a viable option, and even when it is the enemies may easily adapt too.

- Flowing Time Genesis is not a viable shortcut for re-preparing in most games.

- Even if you know generally what you'll face, limited high-level slots usually means a delicate balancing act between two spells (A and B) that will both be useful; prepare too much A and you won't have enough B, nevermind C and D. Spontaneous casters bypass this issue entirely.



That said, Focused Specialist gets more spells than Sorc, most especially high-level spells. Wizards get bonus feats while Sorcs don't. Wizards get more PrC's, more variants, a better casting stat, and get spell advancement a level earlier.

In short, Wizards blow Sorcs out of the water... for reasons that have nothing to do with Prepped vs Spont.

[Hirax]

Fun fact: assuming you use blessed books and aren't a geometer, it would require 3,735 pages to learn all 878 spells (cantrips excluded) in the PHB and Spell Compendium, costing between around 220k, depending on how many spells you get for free each level (collegiate wizard, elven generalist, domain wizard, etc.). 2 levels of geometer would cut 37,500 off the price, plus you'd have everything in one book. You could cut down that price significantly by cutting out some of the crappier spells, and if you have banned schools, there's an automatic price reduction right there. Cutting enchantment (the smallest non-divination school by number of spells) knocks 15k off, for instance.

And the Spell Compendium in particular has a lot of spells that would be easy to cut, so you could easily swap out crappy spells from it for better spells from Complete Mage and other books. Allocating 200-250k is pretty much the cutoff for 'I know all useful spells, please don't make me put them into a list.'

Also, I think people are overestimating just how many spells a wizard (and sorcerer for that matter) needs. Once you have 9th level spells, how many situations are there that shapechange can't solve? Getting it to last all day is as simple as an archmagi vest (or a pearl of power in core only) and greater extend rod (using the vest or more pearls will also get you all day foresight and veil of undeath, or other 10 minute/level buffs). This is great for all casters, but sorcerers have the problem of only 3 9th level spells known, and it's hard to pass up foresight, time stop, and shapechange. So if they want to keep foresight and shapechange up, that means they only have 1 other 9th level spell all day. That's not exactly roughing it compared to what non-casters get, but it's still not optimal compared to what a wizard could do with their remaining 9th level spell slots.

Also, regarding contact other plane, mechanus mind and other spells can simply boost your checks, getting +15 to int checks to succeed automatically on CoP isn't hard if you can't take 10 - which is an entirely reasonable thing to forbid.

[Manateee]

And remember that a prepared caster doesn't need to fill every slot immediately after rest.

When I play a prepared caster, I normally fill 1/2 to 2/3 of my spell slots after rest with general-purpose staples and a couple divinations, then leave the other slots free.

If during adventuring I run out of an important staple like Dispel, I can refill it before it's pressured again; if scouting or divinations reveal a problem that requires a niche spell solution, I can prep the spell before being engaged.

This doesn't require a whole day's foreknowledge - any spell a caster knows can be available in a few minutes, even without Alacritous Cogitation or Uncanny Forethought (though those are still useful).

[Suddo]

The little things matter:
Wizard vs Sorc
Little things: Wizard gets free feats. Learns spell levels earlier, which is a big deal when doing Prestige Classes. Wizards, last time I checked, have better Alternate Class features. Int often has better synergy than Cha because it allows you to have more skills.
Cleric vs Favored Soul
Clerics have turn/rebuke/destroy undead. Clerics have domains. Wisdom is your will save, charisma does little.
Druids vs Tier 2
Druids have Wildshape.

Now on the big subjects:
Heres a quote from Shneeky the Lost from Solo's Sorcerer guide:


I think you are vastly underestimating the value of certain metamagic majors. You see, The strength of the Sorcerer, to use a witty phrase a good Fighter friend of mine used, is Tactical rather than Strategic. When asked to expound upon this, he explained that Strategy is planning ahead, wheras Tactics is dealing with the imediate situation with what you have. I found it a remarkable counterpoint of Sorcerers and Wizards for a person who has absolutely no knowledge of magical prowess. And so, my humble opinion on the various options for metamagic major...

Bold is mine. Sorcerers are good at quickening anything they need on the spot, shaping their spells, twinning, splitting, and repeating their spells when they need to drop some people. Wizards have a much harder time doing this.
On know what you'll do. Divination Spells are awesome. On Divinations spells don't work. Yes they do you just have to concede that Gods aren't all know of the future they just have good vision on everything and can guess better than you. If you ask if you are going to fight fire people tomorrow to a god, then teleport to the fire plane, its your fault the god just gave his best guess.

Edit:

Fun fact: assuming you use blessed books and aren't a geometer, it would require 3,735 pages to learn all 878 spells (cantrips excluded) in the PHB and Spell Compendium, costing between around 220k, depending on how many spells you get for free each level (collegiate wizard, elven generalist, domain wizard, etc.). 2 levels of geometer would cut 37,500 off the price, plus you'd have everything in one book. You could cut down that price significantly by cutting out some of the crappier spells, and if you have banned schools, there's an automatic price reduction right there. Cutting enchantment (the smallest non-divination school by number of spells) knocks 15k off, for instance.

And the Spell Compendium in particular has a lot of spells that would be easy to cut, so you could easily swap out crappy spells from it for better spells from Complete Mage and other books. Allocating 200-250k is pretty much the cutoff for 'I know all useful spells, please don't make me put them into a list.'

That's is pretty cool. This is why you should have lots of libraries. On lots of different planes with lots back-ups and dupes. And thanks for the fact.

[FMArthur]

Sorry if someone's mentioned this, but one other thing that separates prepared casting is that they can have more different spells ready to cast at a time. At even levels (the time when Sorcerers' strongest spells are even comparable), a Sorcerer has 1 highest-level spell to cast 4 times. The wizard has 4 different spells of that level prepared. As the day wears down the spell slots, the wizard becomes less versatile than that, but he starts his day with quadruple the number of options that the sorcerer ever has. The spell level under that isn't in much different a situation, with the sorcerer casting 2 spells from 6 slots and the wizard casting 5 different spells.

[Venger]

Oh, I'm sure that most stories of how wizards are omnipotent are vastly exaggerated.

this is 100% dependent on what scrolls your DM makes available in your game. if he allows everything, then wizards are nigh-omnipotent, if he restricts certain books, then they are less so.

[Yuki Akuma]

Bold is mine. Sorcerers are good at quickening anything they need on the spot

Um.

They need a feat for that, actually.

[SirFredgar]

Um.

They need a feat for that, actually.

Or an ACF available at level 1. Besides, eating a full round casting time isn't so bad once in a while if it means you can metamagic up what you need right there on the spot.

When it comes to metamagic (ab)use, I say Sorc has an advantage in power. Still, metamagic (getting it to usable levels) requires specialization... further limiting the versitility of the particular sorcerer.

[gkathellar]

Everyone should also keep Contingency and Craft Contingent Spell in mind. Tier 1s can make use of these options like nobody else, because they really can prep a contingency for just about any situation.


Um.

They need a feat for that, actually.

Well ... not if they're using Arcane Spellsurge. But your point stands.

[Illven]

Or an ACF available at level 1. Besides, eating a full round casting time isn't so bad once in a while if it means you can metamagic up what you need right there on the spot.

When it comes to metamagic (ab)use, I say Sorc has an advantage in power. Still, metamagic (getting it to usable levels) requires specialization... further limiting the versitility of the particular sorcerer.

That only works 3+Int mod a day.

[SirFredgar]

That only works 3+Int mod a day.

Incorrect. Metamagic Specialist, ACF For Sorcerer out of PHBII... no limit.

Edit: You have to give up your familiar for it. But eh, mine always dies and I eat XP loss anyways.

[Manateee]

Incorrect. Metamagic Specialist, ACF For Sorcerer out of PHBII... no limit.
Check again.

The Rapid Metamagic feat from CMage is the one without the limit.

[dextercorvia]

Incorrect. Metamagic Specialist, ACF For Sorcerer out of PHBII... no limit.

Edit: You have to give up your familiar for it. But eh, mine always dies and I eat XP loss anyways.

It is indeed limited to 3+Int times per day.

[SirFredgar]

Check again.

The Rapid Metamagic feat from CMage is the one without the limit.

Oh boo. I was reading the freaking book when I posted and I still missed that. My bad.

EDIT: Yeah, looking at them again the reason I generally go Metamgaic Specialist is because it gives me the option of reducing casting time or making it the full round. Helps things fit into Spellsurges if I need them to for my Int based mailman.

Now I will make sure not to use it more then the 11 times per day he should be using it at. :)

[Yuki Akuma]

Why does your Sorcerer have an Intelligence modifier of +8?

[SirFredgar]

Why does your Sorcerer have an Intelligence modifier of +8?

Lost Tradition Feat. Even when I play a Sorc, I play a wizard (with waaaaaaaaaaaaaay less spells in his "spellbook", which is a collection of knowstones). I find the int much better for my playstyle, and since we allow flaws, I don't loose much. Go Silverbrow and I'm not really any feats behind a Kobold Sorc based on Cha.

I also take Faery Mysteries Initiate for Int mod to HP, and Keen Intellect to switch my will to int save as well.

[Hirax]

Lost Tradition Feat.

Third/second party is in play? All wizards will now take the spell swap feat, and effectively be able to spontaneously their entire spellbook by making a trivial spellcraft check.

[Venusaur]

As for teleportation spells, only arcane spellcasters have them (other than Plane Shift, which can end very badly),

Actually, Clerics get word of recall. This can be a very handy panic button.

[Steward]

Actually, Clerics get word of recall. This can be a very handy panic button.

I doubt it. I can't imagine a situation where Word of Recall would come in handy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html). It just seems like an awkward, useless spell.

[SirFredgar]

Third/second party is in play? All wizards will now take the spell swap feat, and effectively be able to spontaneously their entire spellbook by making a trivial spellcraft check.

Yeah, it's something that's always been around at our table and I kind of inherited it. I don't even know what book it's from, so it's definitely not for everyone. We at least limit it to mental stats only, but it does allow us to get away with things like a DMM Cleric based of Cha (with three turning pools) for crazy turn undead uses.

Oh, and about Spell swap feat, when I originally joined my table, the GM was giving all wizards that feat for free. Oh... and no spellcraft check. So I can put up with Lost Tradition, since it's the only thing we now use that's non WoTC.



Actually, Clerics get word of recall. This can be a very handy panic button.


I doubt it. I can't imagine a situation where Word of Recall would come in handy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html). It just seems like an awkward, useless spell.

+1 on these.

Back to Topic, though.

The tier system is a basis of verisitility, and I beleive that they are accurately reflected. In my opion, for spell casters their versitility is based off the number of spells they know as well as the diverseness of those spells known, not their spell slots.

Take Teir 3 vs Teir 2. Same number of Casts as a Sorcerer and a decent amount of spells known per spell level. Problem is, they are all from only one or two schools with many redundant effects. Take my Dread Necromancer; I don't have any crazy spell combos, simply because I wasn't given the option of picking my own spells known list. If it's necromancy I can handly it just as well, better in fact, than most wizards or clerics. If it's not necromancy.... well... let the big guns handle it. I'm sure the wizard has a spell in his book that can solve it.... or the item shop has a scroll he can add to his spell book to solve it. Not only this time, but every time he comes up against it in the future, without loosing any veristility to do so.

And in a game where combat might be over in only 2-3 rounds, why does my 6+ casts of any spell I know that is not helpfull beat his 1 cast of the right spell for the job.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The tier system is a basis of verisitility, and I beleive that they are accurately reflected. In my opion, for spell casters their versitility is based off the number of spells they know as well as the diverseness of those spells known, not their spell slots.

Take Teir 3 vs Teir 2. Same number of Casts as a Sorcerer and a decent amount of spells known per spell level. Problem is, they are all from only one or two schools with many redundant effects. Take my Dread Necromancer; I don't have any crazy spell combos, simply because I wasn't given the option of picking my own spells known list. If it's necromancy I can handly it just as well, better in fact, than most wizards or clerics. If it's not necromancy.... well... let the big guns handle it. I'm sure the wizard has a spell in his book that can solve it.... or the item shop has a scroll he can add to his spell book to solve it. Not only this time, but every time he comes up against it in the future, without loosing any veristility to do so.

And in a game where combat might be over in only 2-3 rounds, why does my 6+ casts of any spell I know that is not helpfull beat his 1 cast of the right spell for the job.

I would like to point out that Dread Necro has some very amazing and obnoxious spell/metamagic combos. Kelgore's Grave Mist is 'no save, no attack roll, no SR, just damage'. You can pick it up at level 4 with your Advanced Learning (and very few other viable options at that point). Combo that with something that applies obnoxious status effects (Fell Drain, Fell Frighten...) and you have 'no save, no sr, no attack roll, just suck. Oh yea, and a little damage too'.

Also, apply Arcane Thesis to Enervation and pretend you are the Mailman which delivers negative levels. If you run into undead? Command Undead... now they're YOUR pets. Even better!

[Big Fau]

The thing is, a prepared caster does not need to prepare a spell specifically for an encounter, he just needs a handful of spells that could theoretically deal with a variety of different encounters.

Take Grease for example. It does wonders against groups of enemies, but it also stops Constructs/anything with a Rage variant/anything lacking 5 ranks in Balance dead in it's tracks, and enables the party's Rogue to deal Sneak Attack. Alternatively, against a singular opponent, it acts as a ranged Disarm attempt. For a 1st level spell, that's very good.

Then there's Solid Fog, which basically says "Teleport or you are giving me time to buff the party", Black Tentacles (which really does what the GOD Wizard handbook advertises; it ends encounters), and Glitterdust (same thing). You don't have to see the future to know that these spells are the Encounter Breakers; spells that require the DM to know ahead of time that you have these abilities, and that these abilities can render X encounters/day useless.

Both prepared and spontaneous casters have access to these, and indeed spells like the ones I mentioned are nearly default amongst optimized spellcasters regardless of class.


However, the advantage prepared casters have shows through when the campaign calls for something specific. In example (RHoD spoilers):

In the Red Hand of Doom, a 9th level Wizard can learn both Scry and Teleport, and can purchase a few items that make it easier for him to teleport safely. Once this happens, he can prepare some of the afore mentioned Encounter Enders, and then start building up Victory Points by using Scry and Die on as many of the Wyrmlords and Dragons as he can.

Given that he has nearly an in-game month to do this, the campaign is slated for 5-12th level characters, and that a 5th level Wizard can hit 9th level within 3 days of the campaign starting if he goes out of his way for random encounters, it is possible to destabilize the entire Red Hand horde without them having the opportunity to retaliate.

All that is needed for this to work is to capture a Hobgoblin related to the Red Hand during the first few encounters and interrogate him properly. There are several Divination spells that can enable this (such as Crystal Memories, from Complete Mage).

The hold-up is that Azarr Kul himself is a Cleric 11, and has access to anti-Scrying effects. But losing his allies and the Dragons that support the Red Hand means his authority over the Red Hand itself will wane, and with enough VP, the campaign ends because he won't be able to maintain the threat the army possesses.

The above is called a Campaign Ender, or a Storybreaking Power. Sorcerers can do this too, but only a Wizard can have this kind of power in addition to 5 other Campaign Ending abilities. Furthermore, if a Sorcerer learns a Campaign Ender, he is forever down a spell known when he can't use that spell. Wizards are only down a few pages in their spellbook.


The differences between Tier 1 and Tier 2 are not that deep, just very broad. One class is capable of covering a positively huge number of spells, while another has to focus on a handful.

[SirFredgar]

I would like to point out that Dread Necro has some very amazing and obnoxious spell/metamagic combos. Kelgore's Grave Mist is 'no save, no attack roll, no SR, just damage'. You can pick it up at level 4 with your Advanced Learning (and very few other viable options at that point). Combo that with something that applies obnoxious status effects (Fell Drain, Fell Frighten...) and you have 'no save, no sr, no attack roll, just suck. Oh yea, and a little damage too'.

Also, apply Arcane Thesis to Enervation and pretend you are the Mailman which delivers negative levels. If you run into undead? Command Undead... now they're YOUR pets. Even better!

Oh, I agree with you, I do have some Tricks and I know a lot of them already. But when I'm pretending to be the mailman... I'm still kinda just pretending. The mailman, a Teir 2 Sorc, has the crazy little ability of picking his own spells known, which means he can do anything I can do if he wanted, plus things I can't. I personally beleive it would be silly for him to try and beat me in my own field, but I am of the mind that the fact he can choose between a TwiniMaxedEmpowered Forceorb OR Enervation gives him the edge in versitility.

[Venger]

I doubt it. I can't imagine a situation where Word of Recall would come in handy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html). It just seems like an awkward, useless spell.

couldn't agree more (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html)

[Steward]

Incidentally, that comic above is a good example of the Tier system at work. O'Chul had Redcloak on the ropes. Dude was low on HP, brutally (and symbolically) maimed, had his holy symbol tossed aside like a piece of garbage, and was about to get skewered (again!) with a smite-empowered poker. And Redcloak just left.

And there was nothing that O'Chul could do about it.

Being able to decide the terms of a fight like that is pretty respectable.

Another good example, comparing a cleric to, say, a favored soul. To pull off this feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) without magic items, Redcloak would have had to make Hardening, Greater Obscure Object, and Superior Resistance a permanent part of his build. As a cleric, he can prepare them just for the day, and if he never needs them again after this he can prepare an entire new set of spells.

[Mystify]

Another good example, comparing a cleric to, say, a favored soul. To pull off this feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) without magic items, Redcloak would have had to make Hardening, Greater Obscure Object, and Superior Resistance a permanent part of his build. As a cleric, he can prepare them just for the day, and if he never needs them again after this he can prepare an entire new set of spells.

Yes, that is a great example of what can distinguish tier 1s from tier 2s.

[Venger]

Another good example, comparing a cleric to, say, a favored soul. To pull off this feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) without magic items, Redcloak would have had to make Hardening, Greater Obscure Object, and Superior Resistance a permanent part of his build. As a cleric, he can prepare them just for the day, and if he never needs them again after this he can prepare an entire new set of spells.

your point is well-made.

are "greater obscure object" and "superior resistance" real spells though? I can't find them anyplace, just obscure object, which seems to make sense blocking divinations. resistance is that cantrip that boosts your saves. is there a superiour version?

[Hirax]

your point is well-made.

are "greater obscure object" and "superior resistance" real spells though? I can't find them anyplace, just obscure object, which seems to make sense blocking divinations. resistance is that cantrip that boosts your saves. is there a superiour version?

Superior resistance is in the Spell Compendium, +6 resistance to all saves, 24 hour duration. Greater obscure object doesn't exist I believe, which isn't surprising, OotS has made up greater versions of spells before.

[Eisenfavl]

Fun Fact: it takes me one starting feat, one already broken feat, and one level to be fully spontaneous.
Hathran + continuous acorn of far travel.
Druids/Clerics can do this as well.


So.... you were saying about an advantage?

[Manateee]

Yeah, it's something that's always been around at our table and I kind of inherited it. I don't even know what book it's from, so it's definitely not for everyone. We at least limit it to mental stats only, but it does allow us to get away with things like a DMM Cleric based of Cha (with three turning pools) for crazy turn undead uses.
It's from Bastards and Bloodlines, though it's often frowned upon because Constitution- or Strength- based casters are... abusable.

[Chronos]

Some folks point out that, in order to get perfect knowledge of what you're facing, you need to go to absurd lengths of preparation. And that's true. But the thing is, you don't need perfect information. You can make a big difference with a relatively small amount of information. For instance, are you likely to encounter undead? That's something that you likely don't even need spells to determine. Just look around and see if someone's raiding the graveyards, or if people are dropping dead without visible wounds, or the like. But there are a lot of spells that are great against living enemies but useless against undead, or vice-versa. If a sorcerer learns one of those spells, it'll be completely wasted in the wrong adventure, but a wizard can pick and choose, and swap out that Circle of Death for Undeath to Death as needed.

Of course, intelligent enemies can foil this. A living spellcaster villain might use illusions to appear to be a lich, tricking you into preparing the wrong spells, for instance, so it's not foolproof. Still, that's where your own magic comes into play, as well as keeping some spells available that will work either way, and if possible, escape options like Teleport to retreat long enough to fix your mistakes.

[Venger]

Another good example, comparing a cleric to, say, a favored soul. To pull off this feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) without magic items, Redcloak would have had to make Hardening, Greater Obscure Object, and Superior Resistance a permanent part of his build. As a cleric, he can prepare them just for the day, and if he never needs them again after this he can prepare an entire new set of spells.

your point is well-made.

are "greater obscure object" and "superior resistance" real spells though? I can't find them anyplace, just obscure object, which seems to make sense blocking divinations. resistance is that cantrip that boosts your saves. is there a superiour version?

[olthar]

Not to add anything to this conversation at all, but to instead simplify the concepts.

Spontaneous casters have a couple of hammers and to them the whole world is filled with nails.

Prepared casters have a toolbox and the world is filled with problems to solve.

Sometimes you need a hammer, and when that happens you are ready. Sometimes you need a screwdriver, but the hammer can work if necessary. Sadly, sometimes you need a level or a tape measure or any number of other things and then that hammer isn't so useful.

That's the difference between tier 1 and 2. Tier 1 can always have the right thing to get the job done. Tier 2 may or may not have it, and if they don't they may or may not be able to fake it. Tier 2 may be better able to do some jobs, but that doesn't mean they are stronger. Nobody is going to argue that a barbarian is stronger than a cleric or wizard, but in the right circumstances that barbarian could win.

[Killer Angel]

Spontaneous casters have a couple of hammers and to them the whole world is filled with nails.

Prepared casters have a toolbox and the world is filled with problems to solve.

Sometimes you need a hammer, and when that happens you are ready. Sometimes you need a screwdriver, but the hammer can work if necessary. Sadly, sometimes you need a level or a tape measure or any number of other things and then that hammer isn't so useful.


Not exactly.
The spontaneous caster will have one hammer, one screwdriver and one kind of pliers.
The prepared caster will have 4 or 5 different models of each tool.

[dextercorvia]

Not exactly.
The spontaneous caster will have one hammer, one screwdriver and one kind of pliers.
The prepared caster will have 4 or 5 different models of each tool.

I agree with this. Also the comment about Redcloak above. Spontaneous casters will rely heavily on scrolls to fill the (not so) obscure utility role, if that turns out to be necessary or even just beneficial.

A sorcerer is plenty powerful, but he requires the expenditure of XP to be a different kind of powerful tomorrow.

[Arbitrarious]

I agree with this. Also the comment about Redcloak above. Spontaneous casters will rely heavily on scrolls to fill the (not so) obscure utility role, if that turns out to be necessary or even just beneficial.

A sorcerer is plenty powerful, but he requires the expenditure of XP to be a different kind of powerful tomorrow.

That's certainly true. However most people tend to forget that the argument can be made you only really need a few spells to cover most possible effects. When people do it with wizards it's often when you talk about focused specialists. Then people will go on and on how you don't really lose anything critical by dropping three schools and the effects needed can be covered by a handful of core spells. As far as niche spells and only needing 1 of a certain casting I'm torn. I have gone through 4 save or lose spells against a target and watched each 1 fail, then I was out. As a sorcerer I could have kept going. Relying on a single casting or two of a critical spell has always bitten me in the butt.

[Tyndmyr]

So I've recently become acquainted with the tier system, and I noticed that it seems to assume that the tier 1 characters are only better than the tier 2s because they can prepare a larger number of spells at the expense of being unable to cast them spontaneously. But being able to prepare any spell you want is only useful if you know what encounters you're going to face beforehand. If you don't, than spontaneous casting is more useful. Besides, Tier 1 spellcasters also cast fewer spells per day than spontaneous casters. Am I missing something, or are Tier 1 casters really Tier 2?

Well, let's break it down. Sometimes you know what encounters you face beforehand, sometimes you don't. The mix varies, but in my experience, as the party tends to be proactive and initiates a lot of combat, they have at least some measure of warning for about two thirds of their fights.

So, prepared casters are better off most of the time.

Next, spells known, for spont casters, is a number that is less than spells per day. In short, they have a lot of flexibility about which spell known they cast...but in total spells available, they face limits prepared casters don't.

Thirdly, they're predictable. A sorc that uses fireball one day probably will use fireball the next. A wizard that uses fireball one day can use whatever it wants to the next, and is less vulnerable to a clever, researching opponent.

Fourthly, spont casters get spells slower. Level 3 is a sad time to be a sorcerer, for instance. Higher level spells faster is awesome.

That said, as you get to higher and higher op levels, the tiers kind of blur a bit. A well crafted spont caster can still be ridiculously broken. I have at least one spont casting NPC in my game world that can cast an arbitrary number of spells per round.

[hobo386]

Everyone keeps mentioning that the Wizard can buy scrolls so he knows every single spell possible.

Can't the same be said of Sorcerers?

Considering how often you're going to use each spell, I'd imagine it doesn't really matter much which class you use, and they both end up with unlimited power.

Also, Guild Mage gives sorcs spell pool, which helps them out quite a bit with divinations and spell selection.

[gkathellar]

Everyone keeps mentioning that the Wizard can buy scrolls so he knows every single spell possible.

Can't the same be said of Sorcerers?

What? No, because Wizards can learn spells from scrolls, while sorcerers are limited to using said scrolls once. That's pretty big difference.


Considering how often you're going to use each spell, I'd imagine it doesn't really matter much which class you use, and they both end up with unlimited power.

I'm not sure I follow, but the point is this: the sorcerer can crack the universe in half along one axis. The wizard can crack it in half along whatever axis he happens to prefer.


Also, Guild Mage gives sorcs spell pool, which helps them out quite a bit with divinations and spell selection.

If by Guild Mage you mean Mage of the Arcane Order, then it helps but (a) spellpool has really significant limits and weaknesses, and (b) those 10 levels of MotAO are 10 levels you could be spending on Incantatrix, or IotSV, or any number of other nice PrCs that the wizard will have no trouble entering?

[hobo386]

What? No, because Wizards can learn spells from scrolls, while sorcerers are limited to using said scrolls once. That's pretty big difference.



I'm not sure I follow, but the point is this: the sorcerer can crack the universe in half along one axis. The wizard can crack it in half along whatever axis he happens to prefer.



If by Guild Mage you mean Mage of the Arcane Order, then it helps but (a) spellpool has really significant limits and weaknesses, and (b) those 10 levels of MotAO are 10 levels you could be spending on Incantatrix, or IotSV, or any number of other nice PrCs that the wizard will have no trouble entering?

Fair point about Incantatrix (Though That's more of high tier 1 vs low tier 1 IMO, rather than T1 vs T2).

But my point about the scrolls is that if knowing every single spell takes an insignificant pool of a wizards resources, having enough scrolls for a sorcerer to solve a problem in any way he chooses isn't that far off either.

The sorcerer can still break the world on any axis he chooses. He just has to pay $1.25 out of his million dollars rather than doing it for free.

Also, sorcs have other ways to increase their spells known, such as Wish and Limited Wish, shades, Shadow Conjuration, and they can still abuse infinite Wish chains to boost their power level up to the same sillyness as a wizard can (Though most classes can do wish chains, I suppose).

[Yuki Akuma]

A Wizard needs a copy of every scroll once and can cast that spell as many times as he likes. A Sorcerer needs to pay for each casting of the scroll's spell. That's a pretty big difference.

[hobo386]

We've already said though, scrolls are cheap.

[gkathellar]

But my point about the scrolls is that if knowing every single spell takes an insignificant pool of a wizards resources, having enough scrolls for a sorcerer to solve a problem in any way he chooses isn't that far off either.

The sorcerer can still break the world on any axis he chooses. He just has to pay $1.25 out of his million dollars rather than doing it for free.

WBL-mancy is not a Tier argument (outside of the Artificer, which is Tier 1 because its WBL-mancy is ridiculously cost-effective).


Also, sorcs have other ways to increase their spells known, such as Wish and Limited Wish, shades, Shadow Conjuration, and they can still abuse infinite Wish chains to boost their power level up to the same sillyness as a wizard can (Though most classes can do wish chains, I suppose).

And again, not only can wizards largely do every one of those things better than sorcerers, they can do them and six or seven other things, while the sorcerer is limited to a smaller field of tricks. This is the fundamental distinction between Tiers 1-2.

Sorcerers do two things better than wizards: mailman, and T0 Versatile Spellcaster abuse that's dependent on also being a wizard.

[gkathellar]

We've already said though, scrolls are cheap.

Scrolls aren't cheap. Buying spells from another wizard to scribe in your spellbook is cheap (EDIT: coming out to about 150 gp/spell level, or 50 gp/spell level + 100 with geometer 2). A 9th-level scroll, on the other hand, costs a minimum of 3,825 gp. That's a significant investment for a one-use consumable, even for a 20th-level character hauling around the full 760,000.

EDIT: That's a 2,400 gp disparity.

[Tyndmyr]

your point is well-made.

are "greater obscure object" and "superior resistance" real spells though? I can't find them anyplace, just obscure object, which seems to make sense blocking divinations. resistance is that cantrip that boosts your saves. is there a superiour version?

Spell Compendium. Also, 24 hr duration. They're a part of my medium-high op wizard buff list that's always up.



If by Guild Mage you mean Mage of the Arcane Order, then it helps but (a) spellpool has really significant limits and weaknesses, and (b) those 10 levels of MotAO are 10 levels you could be spending on Incantatrix, or IotSV, or any number of other nice PrCs that the wizard will have no trouble entering?

Faerun also has(magic of Faerun, IIRC) guild mage, which is essentially another version of MotAO.

There's also a lovely feat for spont spellcasting, the spont divination ACF, shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, and my personal high-op favorite, gleefully abusing things to have every spell in the game known and memorized.

After all, when you get *enough* spells prepared, you basically have all the benefits of spontaneity.

[hobo386]

I'm not really going to buy the argument that using a 4000gp scroll is invalid. I mean, the tier list even specifically puts rogues ahead of fighters and fighters ahead of monks, because rogues have limited use of scrolls and wands, and because fighters benefit from having armor and axes and whatnot. And a mage who isn't using his wealth by level only has as many spells as a sorcerer does.

I don't really think 4000gp is that big of an investment for a CR 17+ encounter, considering by that point, you're not even going to be picking up +1 items to go sell back at town, and considering that in every thread I read here, people are recommending level 1 wizards to buy scrolls for extra spells (they start with 3d4x10 wealth), and people recommend wands of cure light wounds to level 2-3 characters, who only have a few thousand gold.

Plus, sorcerers only need a limited collection of scrolls because of mentioned shenanigans (You don't need to prep limited wish, shadow conjurations, or shadow evocations beforehand, they're just part of your toolkit). The sorcerer doesn't even need to go into his hidey hole to prep new spells. He already has 90% of them available at all times.

Sure, the wizard can break the world more cheaply, but the sorcerer can still do it just as well.

A well optimized sorcerer is definitely tier 1, by the definition of the tier system. The wizard is no doubt the top of T1, but the sorc sounds more like:
"Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party." than:
"Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility."

[Big Fau]

To be fair, using a scroll every encounter is hideously expensive. But buying a scroll and copying it into a spellbook/prayerbook is dirt cheap for a 20th level character's WBL.

[Hirax]

You also don't need to buy a scroll to copy something into your spellbook, you can just pay a scribing fee if another wizard is willing. Assuming you're using a blessed book, 50*spell level is pretty damn cheap and allows you to know every useful spell, as I illustrated with my earlier post. Unless there are no other wizards in the world, or all other wizards are completely unhelpful for one reason or another.

[Mystify]

You also don't need to buy a scroll to copy something into your spellbook, you can just pay a scribing fee if another wizard is willing. Assuming you're using a blessed book, 50*spell level is pretty damn cheap and allows you to know every useful spell, as I illustrated with my earlier post. Unless there are no other wizards in the world, or all other wizards are completely unhelpful for one reason or another.
Also assuming that you don't just kill the other wizards and take their spellbooks.

[hobo386]

To be fair, using a scroll every encounter is hideously expensive. But buying a scroll and copying it into a spellbook/prayerbook is dirt cheap for a 20th level character's WBL.

To be fair, a sorcerer doesn't need to use a scroll every single encounter; he's not a rogue. I mean, he gets 6 level 9 spells per day (not including bonus spells or other shenanigans) at level 20.

He just gets scrolls for those spells he'll use once or twice that are both useful and that he'd have a hard time duplicating through other means (still assuming he doesn't have spellpool).

[gkathellar]

To be fair, a sorcerer doesn't need to use a scroll every single encounter; he's not a rogue. I mean, he gets 6 level 9 spells per day (not including bonus spells or other shenanigans) at level 20.

He just gets scrolls for those spells he'll use once or twice that are both useful and that he'd have a hard time duplicating through other means (still assuming he doesn't have spellpool).

But he's still using up his limited resources to accomplish this. The sorcerer still only has so many ways to achieve his aims, it's just that one of them is WBLmancy. No one disputes this point.

Once a wizard has the spell, on the other hand, his use of it is unlimited. It's not considered WBLmancy because he's expending his wealth on the permanent enhancement of his abilities. That's why he's Tier 1 and the sorcerer is Tier 2. (Also, in settings where this isn't allowed, remember that with a feat and a variant wizards gain 5 spells per level instead of 2.)

[FMArthur]

To be fair, a sorcerer doesn't need to use a scroll every single encounter; he's not a rogue. I mean, he gets 6 level 9 spells per day (not including bonus spells or other shenanigans) at level 20.

He just gets scrolls for those spells he'll use once or twice that are both useful and that he'd have a hard time duplicating through other means (still assuming he doesn't have spellpool).

Right. So he's still casting mostly the same spells in repetition, while the wizard is casting a wider variety of spells - in that same day, out of his own spell slots - and then the next day is doing something else because he feels like changing. That's a class feature, not just some magic treasure that any class in the game could be using like scrolls.

That is all the difference between T1 and T2 is supposed to be. I think you've built it up in your mind as a that tier difference being a wide gulf of power where we think the sorcerer is this poor unfortunate child for not getting to play with the 'big boys' or something. It's really not the case. T1s and T2s are always lumped together as the casual campaign-smashers and most balancing measures that takes tiers into account treats the two as the same.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As another example...

A Wizard and a Sorcerer both find a scroll of a spell they don't know.

The wizard promptly scribes it into his spellbook. Now he can not only cast it whenever he wants to prepare it, he can MAKE that scroll from now on, which means he can pass it off to the party Rogue with UMD, a sorcerer who doesn't have that spell onhand, or even sell them for cash.

The sorcerer, on the other hand, can use it. Once. You know, like a Rogue can. Only without needing to make an absurdly easy skill check.

[Kurald Galain]

To be fair, a sorcerer doesn't need to use a scroll every single encounter; he's not a rogue.

We tested this a few times on the forum (well, with partially-charged wands rather than scrolls, but the principle is the same). WBL at level 20 is ridiculously high; at any other level, you'll run out of cash quickly if you commonly try to replicate level-appropriate effects with scrolls or wands.

Because a spell against undead? You can go for a long time without needing it; but when you do need it, you'll want five or six copies of that spell. That's quite a big investment in terms of scrolls.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because a spell against undead? You can go for a long time without needing it; but when you do need it, you'll want five or six copies of that spell. That's quite a big investment in terms of scrolls.

Yeah, when the undeadpocalypse happens, you want that spell as soon as possible, and a wizard can get it within one day. And if the undeadpocalypse is only part of the campaign, then you don't want to have permanently wasted one of your precious few spells known on it.

[hobo386]

Right. So he's still casting mostly the same spells in repetition, while the wizard is casting a wider variety of spells - in that same day, out of his own spell slots - and then the next day is doing something else because he feels like changing. That's a class feature, not just some magic treasure that any class in the game could be using like scrolls.

That is all the difference between T1 and T2 is supposed to be. I think you've built it up in your mind as a that tier difference being a wide gulf of power where we think the sorcerer is this poor unfortunate child for not getting to play with the 'big boys' or something. It's really not the case. T1s and T2s are always lumped together as the casual campaign-smashers and most balancing measures that takes tiers into account treats the two as the same.

What I'm saying though, is that the sorcerer isn't just casting the same spells in repetition. He'll probably have go to spells, just like a wizard does, but even a base sorcerer has the ability to cast about 90% of arcane spells in the game, at will, without using a scroll, without memorization, without using a PrC, without anything (that the spell wouldn't normally use). Add on a single PrC that most people don't ban (unlike the Incantatrix), and he can cast 100% of them.

All I'm saying is that they have nearly the amount of versatility the wizard does. I'm not saying they're better or more powerful or more versatile than a wizard. I'm saying that they can break the game in just as many ways. That is what the definition of T1 is. T1 is defined as a measure of versatility. Sorcerers have plenty of ways to get access to anything they could need. Therefore they are T1.



Because a spell against undead? You can go for a long time without needing it; but when you do need it, you'll want five or six copies of that spell. That's quite a big investment in terms of scrolls.

/facepalm. You don't get it, do you. I know limited wish, because I'm not stupid. I use it to recreate undead to death, which happens to have no material component cost because I recreated it with limited wish.

Oh wait, I need to cast it again? Good thing I can cast limited wish another 17+ times today. Y'know, or I could disintegrate them, summon something to kill them, turn into a dragon and eat them, or just do the same thing every wizard does and hide in my alternate dimension where my spells replenish super fast, and pick them off with whatever other spell I decide.

P.S. Limited Wish takes 0 days to learn because of spontaneous casting. I don't want to diss Wizards, but your example kinda misses the point.

[Chronos]

Kind of a tangent, but the Superior Resistance in the SpC can only be cast on creatures, not objects. I'm guessing that what Redcloak was casting there was a homebrew spell that happened to have the same name.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What I'm saying though, is that the sorcerer isn't just casting the same spells in repetition. He'll probably have go to spells, just like a wizard does, but even a base sorcerer has the ability to cast about 90% of arcane spells in the game, at will, without using a scroll, without memorization, without using a PrC, without anything (that the spell wouldn't normally use). Add on a single PrC that most people don't ban (unlike the Incantatrix), and he can cast 100% of them.

All I'm saying is that they have nearly the amount of versatility the wizard does. I'm not saying they're better or more powerful or more versatile than a wizard. I'm saying that they can break the game in just as many ways. That is what the definition of T1 is. T1 is defined as a measure of versatility. Sorcerers have plenty of ways to get access to anything they could need. Therefore they are T1. The tier system does not take into account PrC's, or the Bard would be Tier 2. Also, they do NOT have as much versatility as Wizards do, not by a long shot.


/facepalm. You don't get it, do you. I know limited wish, because I'm not stupid. I use it to recreate undead to death, which happens to have no material component cost because I recreated it with limited wish. So, you're going to blow at least 300 xp and a 7th level spell slot to duplicate a much lower level spell, repeatedly? That's gonna leave a mark.


Oh wait, I need to cast it again? Good thing I can cast limited wish another 17+ times today. Y'know, or I could disintegrate them, summon something to kill them, turn into a dragon and eat them, or just do the same thing every wizard does and hide in my alternate dimension where my spells replenish super fast, and pick them off with whatever other spell I decide.Casting Limited Wish 17 times is over 3k xp. That could well be a level you're losing there. Also, you are blowing spells known on all that? Because you can produce none of those effects with Limited Wish.


P.S. Limited Wish takes 0 days to learn because of spontaneous casting. I don't want to diss Wizards, but your example kinda misses the point.

And yours does as well. Limited Wish is a fun spell, but xp costs amp up dramatically. You're already behind one spell level as it is. Don't punish yourself worse.

[Big Fau]

Besides, Limited Wish is that Little Red Button©. If you ever have to cast it more than once a week, you either need to step up the optimization to meet the DM's system mastery or you need to overhaul your spells known via Retraining.

[Venger]

Kind of a tangent, but the Superior Resistance in the SpC can only be cast on creatures, not objects. I'm guessing that what Redcloak was casting there was a homebrew spell that happened to have the same name.

yeah, that's why I asked, since I know the normal cantrip version's only for creatures and a lich's phylactery is among one of the only magic items in the game that might be expected to actually remember that it has saves. in this case, it's probably just being allowed on the phylactery since you'd want protective stuff like that on there, even if you do have to replenish it daily (difficult since it's apparently going to be sealed in littlebigplanet)

[kulosle]

Another very potent reason is because ACFs and splat supports the wizard far better than the sorcerer. A lot of the Sorcerer's ACFs suck. The only thing splat wise the sorcerer has over the wizard is wings of cover, that i can think of at least.

[Mystify]

Wish and lesser wish are things that you should never rely on. They are really useful as a panic button, or to accomplish very specific things, but "I can cast it 17 times a day" is simply devastating to a character.

[hobo386]

So, you're going to blow at least 300 xp and a 7th level spell slot to duplicate a much lower level spell, repeatedly? That's gonna leave a mark.


According to SRD, "When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more."

It doesn't say you have to pay XP if the spell has no XP cost. So either the SRD is wrong, or I'm missing something.

[Venger]

According to SRD, "When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more."

It doesn't say you have to pay XP if the spell has no XP cost. So either the SRD is wrong, or I'm missing something.

you are correct.

[Yuki Akuma]

According to SRD, "When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more."

It doesn't say you have to pay XP if the spell has no XP cost. So either the SRD is wrong, or I'm missing something.

You're missing something.

Limited Wish has an XP cost - you always spend 300 XP when you cast it, no matter what you're using it to do. When you use it to cast a spell with an XP component less than 300, you don't have to spend more - the 300 XP is enough to subsume the regular XP cost. If the XP cost is higher, however, you don't pay 300 plus the XP cost of the emulated spell - just the XP cost of the emulated spell.

You see?


you are correct.

No he isn't.

[TuggyNE]

You're missing something.

Limited Wish has an XP cost - you always spend 300 XP when you cast it, no matter what you're using it to do. When you use it to cast a spell with an XP component less than 300, you don't have to spend more - the 300 XP is enough to subsume the regular XP cost. If the XP cost is higher, however, you don't pay 300 plus the XP cost of the emulated spell - just the XP cost of the emulated spell.

Additionally, the SRD continues as follows:
XP Cost

300 XP or more (see above).

It's fairly clear, and quite unambiguous (IMHO).

[olentu]

You're missing something.

Limited Wish has an XP cost - you always spend 300 XP when you cast it, no matter what you're using it to do. When you use it to cast a spell with an XP component less than 300, you don't have to spend more - the 300 XP is enough to subsume the regular XP cost. If the XP cost is higher, however, you don't pay 300 plus the XP cost of the emulated spell - just the XP cost of the emulated spell.

You see?



No he isn't.

I think the idea is that he is correct about the missing something part of "It doesn't say you have to pay XP if the spell has no XP cost. So either the SRD is wrong, or I'm missing something."

[hobo386]

Additionally, the SRD continues as follows:

It's fairly clear, and quite unambiguous (IMHO).

See above implies see above right? I mean, that's what every DM I've played with told people.

Also compare the bottom text from Wish:

"The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP."

Surely they would have used more similar wording if you always had to pay XP for limited Wish?

[Mystify]

300xp or more(see above) is quite clear to me.
It will cost at least 300xp, but it may cost more. See above for when it may cost more.

at the above, it says that if a spell has an xp cost, you pay 300xp or the xp cost, whichever is greater. It says nothing about what happens if the spell doesn't have an xp cost, so the "300xp or more" holds, and it costs 300xp.

You can't trust the writers to use the same phrasing when they mean the same thing.

[SirFredgar]

Additionally, the SRD continues as follows:

It's fairly clear, and quite unambiguous (IMHO).


See above implies see above right? I mean, that's what every DM I've played with told people.

Also compare the bottom text from Wish:

"The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP."

Surely they would have used more similar wording if you always had to pay XP for limited Wish?

I think it's the "XP Cost: 300 XP or more (see above)". I agree tuggyne that it's pretty clear cut. You pay 300 XP, more if you meet the above conditions.

Limited Wish and wish, to me, seem to have similar language about xp costs... just in different locations. Limited Wish lists it's caveates in the last paragraph of the spell description, and tells you to see above for it. Wish just puts everything right down in the XP cost section.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Surely they would have used more similar wording if you always had to pay XP for limited Wish?

As surely as Astral Projection was meant to be used with Plane Shift to give the entire party an insurance policy if they die.

[olentu]

See above implies see above right? I mean, that's what every DM I've played with told people.

Hmm you have very different DMs then I have had. Mine have always said that rules apply unless contradicted.

[hobo386]

Hmm... Well that would certainly change things.

I can't say it is clearly phrased though, considering how many people I know who got the wrong idea...



Hmm you have very different DMs then I have had. Mine have always said that rules apply unless contradicted.

To be fair mine say the same thing. They just read the text differently.

[SirFredgar]

As surely as Astral Projection was meant to be used with Plane Shift to give the entire party an insurance policy if they die.

Wait... are you saying they didn't?!

[olentu]

To be fair mine say the same thing. They just read the text differently.

You know what you are right. I have seen enough people arguing that the absence of a rules statement is a rules statement of a rules absence I should not be surprised. And I guess that is the real difference between the experiences.

[gkathellar]

See above implies see above right? I mean, that's what every DM I've played with told people.

It implies 300 xp or more, see above for details, pretty much exactly as it says.


Surely they would have used more similar wording if you always had to pay XP for limited Wish?

That would have made sense, yes, but if there's anything you can do wrong in evaluating this game it's having excessive faith in the consistency of its presentation.

[Hirax]

I can't say it is clearly phrased though

Completely disagree.

[hobo386]

You know what you are right. I have seen enough people arguing that the absence of a rules statement is a rules statement of a rules absence I should not be surprised. And I guess that is the real difference between the experiences.
In retrospect, this whole discussion seems kinda silly being based on a different interpretation of two words.

Though y'know what. I hear someone calling me back into the fight...


Completely disagree.
Completely disagree. Neener neener.

[olentu]

In retrospect, this whole discussion seems kinda silly being based on a different interpretation of two words.

Though y'know what. I hear someone calling me back into the fight...


Completely disagree. Neener neener.

Do you mean "see above" because the above does not really seem to be in question just the see.

[SirFredgar]

Do you mean "see above" because the above does not really seem to be in question just the see.

I think it's the "or see".

Edit: or maybe just the "or"

[TuggyNE]

Hmm... Well that would certainly change things.

I can't say it is clearly phrased though, considering how many people I know who got the wrong idea...

It's not as clear as it could be, certainly, but I can't see any genuine ambiguity in its language; while you can miss the meaning if you read carelessly, there is no really viable alternate interpretation.

But better copyediting would, of course, be good for WotC in nearly every book they publish. :smallsigh:

[erikun]

Components: XP is pretty clear to me.

[olentu]

I think it's the "or see".

Edit: or maybe just the "or"

Nah the "or" is followed by "more" not "see". Though I suppose it could be the "or more" but then it would probably be the "more" more than the "or"

[hobo386]

Do you mean "see above" because the above does not really seem to be in question just the see.

Okay, maybe one word then, lol? I considered "see above" to be a phrase that meant "look at the body text of the spell to see what you pay" rather than "do this, but look above just in case you want to know what 'more' is."

Actually, maybe above was a bit confusing. Maybe it should have had (see left and above). Or just be worded like Wish was.

[Chronos]

It has an XP component. The XP cost is 300 XP or more. Zero XP is never "300 XP or more". I fail to see what the confusion is.

[SirFredgar]

Nah the "or" is followed by "more" not "see". Though I suppose it could be the "or more" but then it would probably be the "more" more than the "or"

True, my medication often jumbles words in my brain before I can get them to text.


Okay, maybe one word then, lol? I considered "see above" to be a phrase that meant "look at the body text of the spell to see what you pay" rather than "do this, but look above just in case you want to know what 'more' is."

Actually, maybe above was a bit confusing. Maybe it should have had (see left and above). Or just be worded like Wish was.

I agree that they should have had more similar formatting, espcially given they are related spells. However, I am curious to know your stance on the Teirness of the Sorcerer now that you see the mechanics of Limited Wish.

Cause I do agree with you that it givens them a great versitility, but it is inhibited by it's cost. Shadow Conjuration, or Shades at it most potent level, was a good point too, but that can only mimic one school (a great school, I will admit.) By extension, Shadow Evocation has the same problem at a lower level.... and worse school.

[hobo386]

I agree that they should have had more similar formatting, espcially given they are related spells. However, I am curious to know your stance on the Teirness of the Sorcerer now that you see the mechanics of Limited Wish.

In that case, it depends on if they resort to Pun-Pun like shenanigans. Assuming no, and assuming no PrCs, and assuming no researched spells, it would be pretty hard to get them from T2 to T1. I mean at level 20 or so, they might be able to graduate to T1 through crazy optimization and by using some sort of gear combo involving wyrm skulls and runestaves. But bringing it to T1 would be hard even then, unless they resort to cheese.

As a side note I just had a fun idea. Homebrew versions of the Shadow Evocations/Conjurations, but ones that apply to different types of magic (most amusingly, shadow Illusion).

[SirFredgar]

In that case, it depends on if they resort to Pun-Pun like shenanigans. Assuming no, and assuming no PrCs, and assuming no researched spells, it would be pretty hard to get them from T2 to T1. I mean at level 20 or so, they might be able to graduate to T1 through crazy optimization and by using some sort of gear combo involving wyrm skulls and runestaves. But bringing it to T1 would be hard even then, unless they resort to cheese.

As a side note I just had a fun idea. Homebrew versions of the Shadow Evocations/Conjurations, but ones that apply to different types of magic (most amusingly, shadow Illusion).

Ugh, that hurts my head. What if Shadow Illusion was arranged like Shadow Conjuration with a lesser and greater form.... then you could Greater Shadow Illusion a Shadow Illusion.

Otherwise, though, I think the Image spells cover most illusiory effects... being quite versitile in the subject matter they can mimic. How would you reconcile the % real Vs the normal Disbleif from the illusion school?

[hobo386]

Ugh, that hurts my head. What if Shadow Illusion was arranged like Shadow Conjuration with a lesser and greater form.... then you could Greater Shadow Illusion a Shadow Illusion.

Otherwise, though, I think the Image spells cover most illusiory effects... being quite versitile in the subject matter they can mimic. How would you reconcile the % real Vs the normal Disbleif from the illusion school?

Not exactly sure, but that's what would make Shadow Illusions so funny. Use Greater Shadow Illusion to duplicate Shadow Evocation, then spend 20 minutes doing math.

More realistically, I could see something like Shadow Necromancy working out okay, Shadow Divinations would probably be a bit strong (no reason for disbelief), etc.

[Chronos]

If you Shadow Necromancy Raise Dead on a corpse, is the corpse then only sort of shambling around? I think you'd end up in a situation where any rules hole you patched would lead to two more.

[Kurald Galain]

I know limited wish, because I'm not stupid. I use it to recreate undead to death, which happens to have no material component cost because I recreated it with limited wish.

As was said earlier in this thread, most campaigns aren't nearly that high level.

[Beowulf DW]

I know that this is a bit off topic, but does anyone know if there's a Pathfinder tier list? I've seen the 3.5 tier list, but I'm having trouble finding anything for Pathfinder.

[tyckspoon]

I know that this is a bit off topic, but does anyone know if there's a Pathfinder tier list? I've seen the 3.5 tier list, but I'm having trouble finding anything for Pathfinder.

It's largely the same for the 3.5 base classes; the only ones changed enough to actually move tiers are the Paladin and Monk, which both reside in Tier 4 in Pathfinder (there's some debate still about the default Monk.) For the new base classes, you can generally compare them to the 3.5 classes- does it look like a Fighter? Probably Tier 5. Casts 9th level spells (or, in the case of the Summoner, has 9th level spells discounted to fit its shorter progression?) Tier 1 or 2, depending on how it learns spells/the spell list it has access to. Less than full 9ths? Probably Tier 3, possibly 4 if the spell list is very restricted.

[Tyndmyr]

According to SRD, "When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more."

It doesn't say you have to pay XP if the spell has no XP cost. So either the SRD is wrong, or I'm missing something.

The "whichever is MORE" bit is the important part.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

The "whichever is MORE" bit is the important part.
The said clause only applies "when a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost".

[georgie_leech]

The said clause only applies "when a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost".

Hm, that is kind of ambiguous, isn't it? Looking at the cost line alone, it seems clear, but the line "see above" refers to only calls out spells with an xp component. However, that would also mean that limited wish used for anything but spells with an xp cost doesn't burn xp.

Man, WOTC needs to check their editing more carefully...

[Yuki Akuma]

The said clause only applies "when a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost".

No it doesn't. Limited Wish has an XP cost. It says so right there in the components heading, and below the text of the spell under "XP Cost".

You always pay at least 300 xp. Period. There is no ambiguity here.

[Tyndmyr]

The said clause only applies "when a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost".

How so? Let's look at the spell in general.



XP Cost

300 XP or more (see above).

That would mean that wish always costs xp.

The clause is referenced as a way to make the xp cost more than 300 xp. Nowhere does it have an exception that would state or imply less than 300 xp. There is no contradiction or poor editing.

[FMArthur]

Even if it were ambiguously worded, what exactly is being argued here? That in a special game where your DM takes the most lenient, obviously opposite-of-intentional readings possible in order to favor you, you can be powerful? Is that incredible revelation somehow useful to prove points about how classes fare in regular games?

[georgie_leech]

Even if it were ambiguously worded, what exactly is being argued here? That in a special game where your DM takes the most lenient, obviously opposite-of-intentional readings possible to reward you, you can be powerful? Is that incredible revelation somehow useful to prove points about how classes fare in regular games?

Apparently. I'm on the side of "This was entirely unintentional and is certainly not how it actually works." A scorceror being able to cast any 6th or lower spell at a pretty substantial cost does not, to me, make it as versatile as a wizard. It doesn't put it on the same tier by any stretch. Otherwise, the definition of tier breaks down as any character of any race or class or anything has access to Candle of Invocation shenanigans, and thus the potential for Pun-Pun.

[Helldog]

Wait. Someone seriously argues that you don't pay any XP for casting Limited Wish? :smallconfused:
You do. It says so right there.

[Kurald Galain]

Even if it were ambiguously worded, what exactly is being argued here? That in a special game where your DM takes the most lenient, obviously opposite-of-intentional readings possible in order to favor you, you can be powerful? Is that incredible revelation somehow useful to prove points about how classes fare in regular games?

Sure. It's a RAI vs RAW matter, where RAI stands for "Rulings As Idontcareabout", and RAW means "Rules As Whatevermakesmycharacterstronger". I thought everybody knew those terms?