Would you say Tsukiko was a major character?

[Gift Jeraff]

So, in some other thread, someone called Shojo a minor character, and I was about to reply "I would say he played a bigger role than Tsukiko, whom Rich called a major character," but I decided not to derail the already-somewhat-derailed thread.

But that's actually not the main reason I decided to make this topic. This has been bumping around in my head since she died; some people seem to think that Xykon will just laugh off Tsukiko's death and her only narrative role was to inform non-SoD readers what the ritual entails. Some even seem to imply that she was purely comic relief. Yet in War and XPs, Rich says:


So over the course of the war, we meet many members of Azure City's defense forces:, as well as a few additional "boss" monsters on the antagonist side. Some of these characters lived, most died, and at least two of them (O-Chul and Tsukiko) were actually major recurring characters with pivotal parts in the story after the battle who were simply disguised as minor parts when they first appeared.
Off the top of my head, her "pivotal parts" since the battle have been:
-Weakening Celia's pendant.
-Partially assisting in Darth V's defeat.
-Letting non-SoD readers in on the ritual and Redcloak's true Plan.

So, could this possibly indicate that her death will have greater ramifications than some posters seem to think? Does Rich simply have a looser definition of the term? Or do people feel that what she did is enough to be considered a major character?

Yes, I know we're still right in the middle of the plot thread, but I am also curious to see where people draw the line between "major" and "minor" characters.

[Roland Itiative]

I think the disctinction between "minor" and "major" characters, in this case, is simply how much screen time they had. As in, a character that appears in more than one arc, with significant screen time, can already be considered "major". That does not necessarily mean her death will have great meaning.

[Mutant Sheep]

Really, its where the line between major characters and main characters is. A minor character would be Hobgoblin#133 or That Guy with the Pointy Stick. You cant really call Hinjo or Tsukiko main characters, because that's Xykon, Redcloak, and the Order. But they have a role in the story beyond mook, and I'd call that role major. :smalltongue:

[NinjaStylerobot]

There are character tiers:

Tier 1: Major plot focus. has most appearances 200+ strips

Tier 2: Support of tier one or just not as much screen-time. About 100 Strips

Tier 3: Minor role. About 5-20 strips

Redshirt: 1-2 strips.

[Anarion]

I would suggest that Tsukiko has been more important than just the three points you listed. She effectively changed the dynamic of team evil for a period of time, with Redcloak falling partially out of favor and Xykon (for reasons still unknown) charging Tsukiko with investigating the magic ritual. We even know that Xykon gave Tsukiko the term "wrong-eye" as a way of getting at Redcloak, so there was obviously a lot of tension going on there.

Now Tsukiko is gone, and we'll probably see Xykon's reaction to her death in the next couple strips, but that doesn't mean that her influence ends there. Even if Xykon does laugh off her death and congratulate Redcloak for his initiative, later events could change that reaction. What if, 200 strips from now, the MitD accidentally lets slip that Tsukiko had figured something out about the ritual? Or, what if our crazy speculation ends up being right and Tsukiko's soul gives out information to Rat or some other deity that eventually comes back to bite Redcloak? Even if Xykon's reaction over the next couple strips seems conclusive, I think it's still early to make any kind of final judgment about the extent of Tsukiko's influence.

All of which is to say, I think that her role up to now was borderline between being a major vs. minor character. If her influence outlives her, then it would push her into the major character side of the line in my view.

[FujinAkari]

To echo what others have said, there is a distinction between "Major Recurring Character" and "Major Character"

Tsukiko was certainly a character with a lot of screentime and one that affected the plot, not unlike Samantha or the Oracle, but I wouldn't call either of them Major Characters.

I would give her the distinction of a Significant Character, but I tend to reserve the mantle of Major to those who are literally driving the story. OOTS, Redcloak, Xykon, the IFCC, and Nale would all qualify. Tarquin hasn't really been doing a lot, thus far, but he is taking an active role and I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being Major as well.

[shadowkiller]

Well Tsukiko was in 28 strips, I would hardly call that major, however significant henchman would probably work.

[ti'esar]

Personally, I'd say that Shojo was a more "major" character then Tsukiko. He played a major role in driving the plot, and I think the only reason his status would even be in question is the (relatively) early point at which he was killed off - and even then, he still managed to spark a the major turning point of Belkar's character arc, albeit as a hallucination.

As far as Tsukiko, she was a fairly significant recurring antagonist, but I'm not sure I'd use the term major character. At this point, I think it largely depends on what the fallout of her death is (and I don't think we're going to know that for quite some time).

[Giddon]

From the Giant's quote lets look at O'chul. So far he has been major in story (not screen time) terms because he has put the seed in MitD mind that he is a good "man" and that he doesn't need Team Evil. As well as serving as the Liason between everything that has happened in Azure city. Lets not forget the feats and spell list he got of Xykon and Red Cloak.

Now similarly lets look at Tsukiko's significance. First are the things mentioned about her liberating Celia and the such. But more importantly, she destabilized the relationship between Xykon and Red Cloack first by humiliating RC. Then by finding out RC's 30 year deception and threatening to reveal it.

As well her death is still significant because Xykon asked her to study the ritual for a reason, most likely to make sure RC wasn't decieving him (be it that the ritual destroys Xykon, or that it doesnt really give him power like is the case). So no matter what the reason, Xykon will still be wary of her dying while investigating the ritual. This could result in an even bigger change of dynamics in the relationship between X and RC.

[ThePhantasm]

Admittedly, I was a bit surprised when Tsukiko was killed off. I expected her to be a more permanent addition to team evil, balancing out their numbers a bit against the Linear Guild and the Order of the Stick. Now Team Evil is left with their usual trio of Xykon - Redcloak - MiTD.

That said, Tsukiko was a major character in that she drove a deeper wedge between Xykon and Redcloak, deepening the conflict between them (or at least causing it to begin to surface). There has certainly been a dynamic shift in Team Evil caused by her (as well as other factors, like the founding of Gobbotopia etc.). She was also major in the sense that she seemed to have her own distinct plot arc - a morbid love for the undead that eventually (tragically) destroyed her.

I wouldn't say she was as major a character as Miko, but she was perhaps just as much of one as Hinjo.

[Flame of Anor]

Shojo was an important secondary character. Tsukiko was a slightly-important tertiary character.


I'm using this scale:

Primary characters: the Order
Secondary characters: Xykon, Redcloak, Eugene, Hinjo, Nale, etc.
Tertiary characters: Therkla, Qarr, Pompey, teleporting birdfood wizard, etc.
Quaternary characters: Island Devil, Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, Old Blind Pete, etc.
Quintary characters: nameless mooks

[MesiDoomstalker]

Shojo was an important secondary character. Tsukiko was a slightly-important tertiary character.


I'm using this scale:

Primary characters: the Order
Secondary characters: Xykon, Redcloak, Eugene, Hinjo, Nale, etc.
Tertiary characters: Therkla, Qarr, Pompey, teleporting birdfood wizard, etc.
Quaternary characters: Island Devil, Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, Old Blind Pete, etc.
Quintary characters: nameless mooks

I assume by "Island Devil" you mean the IIFC correct? And if I assumed corrcetly, I think your saldy mistaken. Their lack of appearences only belys their importance in the story (mainly because relativly speaking they are new to the story and their importance will be revealed during the next gate or the final confrontation).

If I assumed wrong, please ignore the above paragraph and point out what devil are you talking about?

[ti'esar]

I would have assumed the "Island Devil" was this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html).

[JSSheridan]

No.

/thread

[MesiDoomstalker]

I would have assumed the "Island Devil" was this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html).

OH! Ok, I understand now, ignore me.

[rbetieh]

Well, she was an assistant and active accomplice to the antagonist, which is big in and of itself. I would say she just outlived her narrative role. There is just so much that immature girl trying to win daddy xykons affection from redcloak can take you. Especially when it was obvious from the beginning that RC wasn't playing that game. Some characters can't grow from their states and so they go away.

But does she stand on her own? I am afraid not. I find it hard to imagine that she could run an arc, like Miko and Tarquin have.

[Flame of Anor]

It's the big guy ti'esar pointed out. MesiDoomstalker, I'd put the IFCC as secondary by importance, or perhaps tertiary--but only because they haven't had much screen time.

[RMS Oceanic]

I would say Fujin's description of Tsukiko as a "significant" character would be the most accurate way to see her, in that her actions impacted and influenced the main story. Contrast this to, say, the assassins trying to kill the King of Nowhere. All they impacted was their own little side story, so they'd be minor characters.

[Omergideon]

For me, I would classify someone as a major character if they get significant characterisation, motivations OR act as a driving force for the events of the plot. In a sense the story needs to be about them for a moment. And in a sense the story would need to be massively reworked if a different character was placed there.

Miko for instance was a major character as she drove most of the events for a major story arc, and massively contributed to the events of another. In addition she had motives and characterisation beyond that. Her fall was a story about Miko, and how it affected her as much as the order.

Shojo may have provided the backstory and background motivations for a story arc, but I would hesitate to call him a major character. At no time is the story ABOUT him or his motivations but only his effects on the Order and their choices. A change in personality in massive ways could not alter the main story too much.



Just 2 examples, but based on this I would not call Tsukiko a major character. She gets characterisation and some plot driving moments. However at no point is any part of the story ABOUT Tsukiko. She is not the focus, only her effect on the other members of Team Evil is. She is a foil to allow Redcloak or others to have opposition. You could almost entirely replace her with an other character and not change much. OK, for the ritual subplot a Mystic Theurge is a great character class, but any clever magic user would be able to fulfill her role. Not in the details of how she dies etc, but in her role in the plot.

She was though a significant secondary character.

(Note, as O'Chul is getting a backstory unrelated to his role in OoTS I would say he is a significant secondary character on the verge of becoming major)

And just to finish off, to me

Primary Pro/Antagonists: Roy, Elan, Xykon and Redcloack. These are the most important characters in the story. In fact they ARE the story.

Main characters: These would get cast billing in a TV show. These are the ones who, for a time, the story has been about. So the Order, Miko, MiTD, perhaps some IFCC elements and the Linear Guild leaders. Changing them would irreplaceably change the story.

Secondary Characters: These are significant people to the plot. They play a big role and can even drive events. But they are not the ones the story is about. You could change them and, while events would need to be reworked, perhaps by a bit, the main progression of events is not too problematic. So guys like Hinjo, Shojo, Kabuto, O'Chul, weaker LG people, Tsukiko fall here. A different character could fulfill their main role in the story without a lot of work.

Tertiary Characters: They have names. They do things. They may even do noticable things. But they in themselves do not matter too much in themselves to the story. Daigo for instance falls here, as does Celia outside of DStP. Or the orc tribe in the same story.

Mooks: Anyone without a name.

[the_tick_rules]

I would say she was a second tier character.

[Math_Mage]

I placed her in Tier 3 in my tentative tier list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12667261#post12667261) Basically the same thing as Omergideon's Secondary Characters.

[Dr.Epic]

Not really. She didn't do that much and wasn't around for that long. The Order, Team Evil, they're major characters. I'd even say the Linear Guild and a few Azurites are/were major characters. I wouldn't extend this to Tsukio though.

[B. Dandelion]

If they made OOTS the live-action miniseries, Tsukiko would be a named part they'd need to cast for. However she wouldn't make it into the opening credits and they would probably make her role an amalgamation of Tsukiko with one or two other, less important, parts.

[Flame of Anor]

If they made OOTS the live-action miniseries, Tsukiko would be a named part they'd need to cast for. However she wouldn't make it into the opening credits and they would probably make her role an amalgamation of Tsukiko with one or two other, less important, parts.

You think? Honestly, I don't think the adaptation would suffer too much if she weren't there at all.

[The Pink Ninja]

Nah, not even middeling. She never did anything of importance other than die at RC's hands.

[PhantomDennis]

I would say Fujin's description of Tsukiko as a "significant" character would be the most accurate way to see her, in that her actions impacted and influenced the main story. Contrast this to, say, the assassins trying to kill the King of Nowhere. All they impacted was their own little side story, so they'd be minor characters.

If we want to get technical the assassins played a major role in Roy's character development, in turn Roy's decision to put Miko in her place further soured her on the order and have impacted her irrationality towards them. Further their part in destroying Hayley's treasure led to Hayley's aspasia which ultimately culminated in Elan and Hayley's relationship upgrade.

On the other hand, their only subsequent appearance was single panel gag in Thanh's backstory. I was kind of surprised that Tsukiko only appeared in 26 strips. I reminds that Talia Winters and Keffer each appeared in the same episodes of Season 2 of Babylon 5. The difference was Talia was almost always in foreground of the story, while Keffer was glorified background character. Tsukiko was a fairly major character due to her proximity to the A-list villains. She interacted with all of them including the MitD. Her death negates this, obviously.

As to her further impacting the story, Redcloak believes that he has silenced her. Meaning that he is reasonably confident that Xykon will not find a way to contact her spirit. The Last we saw, there was another necromancer spirit loose on the earth. The IFCC thought she'd be returned to her plain eventually. Perhaps Haerta(?) will find her restless soul and find in her vengeful spirit a path to anchoring herself in the plane.

One should note that the Giant in the title Gag of a strip essentially said that Tsukiko was the rough equivalent of Sabine in storyline importance.

[Morgan Wick]

Either Rich has a far broader definition of "major character" than most people, or that line in War and XPs falls in the same category as what he said about Miko in No Cure: at least partly intended to misdirect people from her eventual death.

[ti'esar]

Either Rich has a far broader definition of "major character" than most people, or that line in War and XPs falls in the same category as what he said about Miko in No Cure: at least partly intended to misdirect people from her eventual death.

Actually, I'm inclined to think it's the former: she was a fairly significant recurring character, and certainly more important then Thanh or any of the other recently-slaughtered cast members. I wouldn't call her a major character, and apparently most others here agree, but I think it's possible to have a definition of it where she is.

[Kish]

As the person whose post prompted Gift Jeraff to start this thread :smalltongue:, let me just say that I still consider the third member of the primary antagonist group in the comic a more major character than the ruler of the larval form of Gobbotopia...despite the death sentence each role carried for its occupant.

[Knight.Anon]

Tsukiko was a major character in the part of the story that took place in Azure City. I hope she becomes a ghost and turns up again but who knows.

Too bad that OOTS isn't connected to Ravenloft she could have a small ruined city there.

Tsukiko a ghost (maybe two ghosts) longing for true love in the mists of a dead city.

[Morgan Wick]

Tsukiko certainly looked like she was becoming a major character, but in retrospect if she's a major character Qarr probably is too, and Eugene might be as well. There is a definition that includes them, but it's substantially broader than what you'd typically think of.

[gooddragon1]

-Letting non-SoD readers in on the ritual and Redcloak's true Plan.

Aww, I feel kinda betrayed. Why would Rich keep the f2r readers in the dark for so long? Why did he put information like that in a format that has to be bought? :(

[Dr._Demento]

Aww, I feel kinda betrayed. Why would Rich keep the f2r readers in the dark for so long? Why did he put information like that in a format that has to be bought? :(

To make it worth buying of course! and it still is, because Tsukiko only revealed what was absolutely plot necessitous.

Also, Tsukiko was exactly what she was portrayed as, a character that desperately wanted to be accepted and loved, but was shallow and only being used, thus disposed of easily.

So really, Tsukiko was trying to get Rich's approval. Which means Rich is Xykon. Which means that the world within the rift IS our world, and Redcloack attempted to dispose of Xykon in the rift, and this is all part of Xykon's elaborate scheme to return from the rift and take his revenge upon Redcloack.

[Copper]

There's a tier of character importance on another thread and according to that, she's a Tier 2. Which I guess would be a major character? Honestly, the term is so fuzzy, I think it's more of a quibble about definition than anything else.

[Vinyadan]

As I see it:
Tier 1: the Order (protagonists)
Tier 2: the Evil Duo (antagonists)
Tier 2.5: MitD
Tier 3: Linear Guild, Tsukiko, 3 big Paladins, Miko, Shojo, Oracle, IFFC, Jirix, Tarquin, Malak
Tier 4: Pete, priest of Loki, the Brigand Family, Than, Kubota
Tier 5: very unimportant characters, the Unnamed and the Named Soldiers (Niu, House Kato)
Tier X: Background characters.

As I see it: the Order is the main character. The Order is the important thing. It has a big psychology and most of the screen time.
X&R are the true antagonists. They are important, but we follow the Order's adventures, not theirs. Their importance is as obstacole/target.
MitD: It looks like it will become alwais more important.
Tier 3: characters who help making the story with interesting and important elements, but aren't the story.
Tier 4: Like 3, but not so important. They were expedients, but the story didn't really need them to go that way.
Tier 5: Unnamed people and people who have a name, but don't really make a difference (they are useful as a chance for a description of a situation: "life in the fleet"; "life in the occupied city")
Tier X: the big and ancient/unseen: the gods, Dorukan&Co, the old collegues of Tarquin. They are people who made or significantly changed the world (or a continent) but are part of a background exposition, and don't act first-person.

Of course, the story is not yet ended and I'll probably have to revise this scheme soon.

[Kish]

Aww, I feel kinda betrayed. Why would Rich keep the f2r readers in the dark for so long? Why did he put information like that in a format that has to be bought? :(
...

You thought the print-only content was guaranteed to be--what--meaningless and valueless?

[Quarion Nailo]

I would say that the 'majorness' of a character should be determined by their screentime and not their effect on the plot; there are plenty of characters that technically changed the course of stick-history in couple strips. We've hardly seen anything of the Order of the Scribble, but practically the entire plot is built around them. I wouldn't call them major characters, but I would call them plot-central characters. Oppositely, Tsukiko is not a very plot-central character (there was very little she did that couldn't have been resolved identically by a different character), but she is a far more major character than, say, Soon Kim, because she has more screentime.