In-setting reasons for banning tier-1s

[Jeff the Green]

What do you think about in-setting reasons for banning or nerfing classes of a particular tier? Athas (Dark Sun) is a good example. In a setting I'm working on, the tier one classes are essentially NPCs for various reasons. The goal is to have a setting based on tier 2 and below classes, without losing magic items, evil wizards, and other key features of high fantasy.


Magic is exceptionally dangerous without certain precautions.

Sorcerers get their power through bargains with outsiders. (Using SonofZeal's "Beholden" variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211407))
Favored Souls are invested with their power through their church, which has "tame" outsiders. (Also Beholden, but to their church.)
Spirit Shamans have their spirit guide, which helps channel magical energies safely. (Beholden, again, this time to their spirit guide.)
Wizards [edit] and Archivists require extensive time to set up magical circles, wards, etc., and so their casting times are increased by several times (<1 round becomes an hour, minutes-hours becomes a day, 1+ days becomes a week).
Clerics can only cast on Hallowed (or Unhallowed) ground because the process of hallowing creates an area of order in the chaotic magical energies that make casting dangerous normally.

Druids don't exist, because nobody has thought to worship nature in the abstract.
Psionics don't exist.
Artificers are a) exclusively dwarves, b) restricted from travelling outside of the dwarven kingdom (and watched to make sure they don't leave), and c) paid very well just to stay and not teach any unapproved apprentices (in addition to whatever they make by selling their wares).


So, for the sake of argument, assume you don't mind a (nerfed) tier 2 and below game. Like? Dislike? Neutral? Inventive or contrived?

[sreservoir]

spirit shaman has a Big Three list, and among the best casting mechanisms; whether simply removing the rest of the druid goodies is sufficient to drop them a tier is ... arguable, let's just say.

why psionics do not exist? they have their share of broken tricks, but are, on the whole, better-balanced than spells, and operate on a tier 2 knowledge system, except for erudite which can be disowned separately is kind of badly-written anyway.

[Glimbur]

It's easier to just say "wizards, clerics, and druids don't exist". That said, this seems viable, as long as the PCs know ahead of time. I wouldn't want to play a wizard, but that's the point.

[Manateee]

I'm curious what proportion of the time will be spent negotiating whether actions tie into various causes. I'd expect plenty.

[Jeff the Green]

why psionics do not exist? they have their share of broken tricks, but are, on the whole, better-balanced than spells, and operate on a tier 2 knowledge system, except for erudite which can be disowned separately is kind of badly-written anyway.

Purely an aesthetic decision. One of the major points of the setting is that supernatural power is hard, requiring either massive specialization, bargains with more naturally magical beings, or very inconvenient precautions. Even though they're not mechanically problematic, the idea of manipulating the world with just a thought clashes a bit.



I'm curious what proportion of the time will be spent negotiating whether actions tie into various causes. I'd expect plenty.

Could you explain a bit? Beholden only restricts the spontaneous casters when they're acting against direct orders or fighting something that gives them their power.

[Con_Brio1993]

You forgot Archivists.

[Manateee]

Could you explain a bit? Beholden only restricts the spontaneous casters when they're acting against direct orders or fighting something that gives them their power.
I suppose it depends how you're going to implement a deity's discretion or various outsiders' orders. If you don't plan on it having meaningful mechanical repercussions, it probably won't be the issue I thought.

[Frozen_Feet]

"Magic doesn't work that way", depending on the specifics, can justify banning some, most, or all casters. If I'm, for example, using a game where all magic is divine, arcane classes can go; if I'm using a setting where some kind of spells just aren't supposed to exist, either those spells or classes that get access to them get cut.

In-game reasons for restricting classes are equally valid as out-of-game reasons. Not all settings support or have room for all kinds of characters. If anything, there usually isn't a point in having all sorts of characters in a single game anyway - 3.5 has serious class bloat with several redundant classes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why no psionics? Not all psionic classes are tier 2. Make it so that only Psionic Fist, Psychic Warrior, Slayer, and maybe Ardent (I'm not sure whether they're tier 2 or 3) exist.

Also, for caster buffers/support, take out Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Flame strike for clerics/favored souls, take monsters with ability drain or powerful spells out of the Summon Monster line, and remove the entire Planar Ally and Planar Binding lines, as well as Gate. Make Foresight diviner-only (something to fill the specialist slot, but otherwise not available), take out Dominate Person/Monster, take out Mindrape, take out Shades, up Shadow Conjuration/Evocation up two levels from what they already are (but don't change the max level of the spells they can produce), take out Astral Projection, and change Time Stop to a flat two rounds (so it's still worth a spell slot, but not majorly powerful).

I'm sure I missed a ton, but it'd probably take an hour just to remove or change all the powerful core spells, never mind the SpC.

[DonutBoy12321]

In one setting I made, the secret to magic had been lost long ago. No more explanation needed.

[Con_Brio1993]

In one setting I made, the secret to magic had been lost long ago. No more explanation needed.

But how does that solve the problem of divine magic? Did DND religion die out, and everyone forgot how to contact the gods?

[Psyren]

Just break them up. Instead of "Wizard" use T3 versions of each school like Beguiler, Dread Necro, Saph's Teleporter etc. Then you can call all of them "Wizard." There's more than enough homebrew here to do that for Clerics and Druids too.

Archivists can be safely banned - it's easy to simply say "Divine magic doesn't work that way." (i.e. you really DO need deities to get it.)

[Alleran]

But how does that solve the problem of divine magic? Did DND religion die out, and everyone forgot how to contact the gods?
Perhaps the magic went away (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMagicGoesAway). Of course, this leaves the door open for the magic to come back (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMagicComesBack).

[Chronos]

You could even go more radical than that, and say that all of the actual spellcasters just don't exist in your world, and the only magical classes are, say, the Tome of Magic classes. That might even make Truenamers relevant, since suddenly they're the only source of healing at all, until Binders get access to Buer.

[Soup]

It's easier to just say "wizards, clerics, and druids don't exist". That said, this seems viable, as long as the PCs know ahead of time. I wouldn't want to play a wizard, but that's the point.

+1

Every T1 archetype has a mirror lower on the scale, eg: Cleric - Favoured Soul, Druid - Totemist/Spirit Shaman, Wizard - Dread Necromancer, Wu Jen, Warmage and other focused classes.

You can simply say the T1 classes don't exist and magic has never worked that way. You could remove all vancian casting without upsetting game balance (actually, you improve game balance).

Be aware that most T2 classes are as powerful as T1, they simply have fewer options to break the game.

[Jeff the Green]

So, what I'm getting from most people is that it would be easier to just say "Wizards et al. don't exist." So, let me explain my thinking and maybe I can get more feedback.

In a lot of fantasy, the main characters just don't have access to the really powerful magic. It's too hard, they're not trained in it, it's inherently evil, etc. Or in other cases, it's available, but not practical in adventuring situations (like thaumaturgy during battle in the Dresden files). I'd like to keep that sense of "magic is hard," and the way I thought of doing that is to make the most powerful and versatile classes exist, but utterly impractical for adventurers. They're still there to be the Gandalf to the PCs Frodo or Q to their James Bond, but they don't go on adventures themselves.

In other words, it underscores that the PCs are sacrificing versatility for the ability to use magic on their adventure.

[Mystify]

But how does that solve the problem of divine magic? Did DND religion die out, and everyone forgot how to contact the gods?
I had a setting for one campaign where the types of magic were completely seperated. There were 4 material planes, each wit hdifferent properties:

The arcane plane: where the campaign took place. Extremely advanced in arcane magic. There is no divine magic or psionics
The psionic plane: Normal arcane and divine magic does not exist, but psions are common
The divine plane: Rules over by the dieties, this plane has divine magic, but not arcane or psionic:
The technological plane: No magic exists here in any form, and instead people have learned to utilize science to create many effects that other planes will use magic to create

There were a few other changes, like all spells relating to undead were divine only, and by extension undead are only found on the divine plane.

So, in a setting like that, there are gods, but they don't care about your plane.

[Person_Man]

In my homebrew Ancient Roman/Greek setting, there are many demi-gods, and most of them are petty, cruel, and jealous. They have a tendency to take out mortals who become too powerful, and/or to set them against each other with through manipulation. Think Iliad, Odyssey, Clash of the Titans, Jason and the Argonauts, Hercules, Xena, etc.

Thus the world is littered with unique artifacts (of varying power levels) made by the gods, magical beasts, strange phenomenon, and low level priests, magicians, and people "who know a few tricks." But any time someone starts to become too powerful they draw the attention of the gods, and bad things start to happen to them and the people they care about.

[avr]

It's often assumed but I think it's worth noting again for your NPC-only classes - it must be possible for time and study or something similar to gain levels, otherwise the secrets of Wizardly power will extend only as far as first-level Wizards.

[DonutBoy12321]

But how does that solve the problem of divine magic? Did DND religion die out, and everyone forgot how to contact the gods?

Religion didn't die. People just could no longer remember how to get divine magic.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Magic is exceptionally dangerous without certain precautions.

Sorcerers get their power through bargains with outsiders. (Using SonofZeal's "Beholden" variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211407))
Favored Souls are invested with their power through their church, which has "tame" outsiders. (Also Beholden, but to their church.)
Spirit Shamans have their spirit guide, which helps channel magical energies safely. (Beholden, again, this time to their spirit guide.)
Wizards [edit] and Archivists require extensive time to set up magical circles, wards, etc., and so their casting times are increased by several times (<1 round becomes an hour, minutes-hours becomes a day, 1+ days becomes a week).
Clerics can only cast on Hallowed (or Unhallowed) ground because the process of hallowing creates an area of order in the chaotic magical energies that make casting dangerous normally.

Druids don't exist, because nobody has thought to worship nature in the abstract.
Psionics don't exist.
Artificers are a) exclusively dwarves, b) restricted from travelling outside of the dwarven kingdom (and watched to make sure they don't leave), and c) paid very well just to stay and not teach any unapproved apprentices (in addition to whatever they make by selling their wares).

Confusingly, this list contains both Tier 1 (which you want to ban for PCs) and Tier 2 (which you want to allow). So for example, the bits about sorcerers and favored souls, are they meant as arguments to allow them? Or NOT allow them?

Other than that, your ideas are fine as long as they fit your own setting and the campaign you have in mind. For example, if you ever want an NPC wizard to turn someone into a toad, or present an actual threat to anyone, the casting time of one hour makes it impossible. ("You there! Don't run away! Stand still so I can turn you into a toad! Where are you going?") But if you only want them in the story to perform tasks out of combat, where casting time isn't an issue, then why not.

Another, much easier solution, is to treat these classes as Prestige Classes in terms of admittance. For example, one can become a Wizard only if accepted to the Academy, and the Academy doesn't train any bloke that passes by. (Feel free to invent limitations, intrigue, goals and policies.) Clerics are trained by special branches of the Church. Archivists are in fact a covert cult. Druidic Circles have their own convoluted means of choosing candidates, which involves approving previous reincarnations. Your dwarves-only idea for Artificers is pretty cool, too, and a very good example of exactly what I'm proposing here.

Or maybe it's an extreme case of nepotism, and only people from certain families or bloodlines are accepted in such institutions. Or they accept only high nobles. Or the tuition fee is prohibitive. Anything that fits your setting.

(I'm not suggesting anything for Sorcerers, Favored Souls and Spirit Shamans, because I'm not sure if you want them or not. But I'm sure you can think of something along the same lines.)

So there. You have a perfectly solid, in-game, social explanation for why your PCs aren't allowed to train as Tier 1 casters. You don't need to meddle with the crunch at all. And any time you need an NPC to do Tier 1 stuff, you can just introduce him without causing the slightest suspension of disbelief.

Does that suit you?

[Jeff the Green]

Confusingly, this list contains both Tier 1 (which you want to ban for PCs) and Tier 2 (which you want to allow). So for example, the bits about sorcerers and favored souls, are they meant as arguments to allow them? Or NOT allow them?

I didn't make that clear enough. They're allowed, but have a (very long) leash on them. So a sorcerer who rebels against his patron outsider is going to have reduced casting ability, as would a favored soul who disobeys their church, etc. But those are the only circumstances where they're limited.



[snip]

So there. You have a perfectly solid, in-game, social explanation for why your PCs aren't allowed to train as Tier 1 casters. You don't need to meddle with the crunch at all. And any time you need an NPC to do Tier 1 stuff, you can just introduce him without causing the slightest suspension of disbelief.

I do like that idea (and may incorporate it somewhat), but I'm not sure it fits with the setting as well. Do you think the purely social reason would be more acceptable or understandable for players?

Thanks for your replies everybody! :smallsmile:

[HeadlessMermaid]

I do like that idea (and may incorporate it somewhat), but I'm not sure it fits with the setting as well.
These were more random suggestions that popped into my head, the MO is the important thing. If you know what your setting is like, you can think of more suitable ways.


Do you think the purely social reason would be more acceptable or understandable for players?
I don't think anyone can tell you that, it depends entirely on your players. I know my group would be fine with it, but that doesn't prove anything. You can always ask them before making a big production.

That said, I'd personally be totally fine, as a DM and as a player, with the simplest possible solution: "Guys, there are Tier 1 NPCs in the world, but they are not available as base classes. I think the game will be fun and challenging that way." I mean, if you need to jump through hoops to convince your players otherwise, maybe they don't enjoy playing at lower Tiers at all.

[erikun]

Spirit Shamans are tier 1.

Wizards and Archivist are apparently still playable, as 1 round (or less) spells can still be cast with their usual casting times. Note that doing otherwise would make them passive NPCs, because they couldn't ever fight back against an attacker.

[Suddo]

I like the flavor. And like that they still exist in the world at large just only as NPCs. This is basically what I plan on doing with Paladins sense they tend to require too much alignment restriction.

[MukkTB]

Its not really that hard. Just say tier 1 and 2 classes don't exist. The god's want a worldly agent? They bless a Paladin. Someone studied arcane magic? If they didn't specialize they're a Jack of all trades Bard. If they did they're a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer or War Mage or whatever.


There isn't a need to explain why Wizards and Clerics aren't there. They aren't there for the same reason James Bond doesn't show up in a cop buddy movie. They don't exist in the setting./They don't fit the story. Pick your school of literary interpretation.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My homebrew world runs on the following:

Magic. We broke it. Oops. Wizards kicked around the laws that govern reality until it finally backlashed on them. All of the true wizards died. However, some specialist variants have survived (beguiler, dread necro, etc...) in secret schools.

The deities saw what mortals did, and shook their heads. Clearly, mortals were not mature enough for this level of power. So they took it back. What they gave in return is something more... reasonably powered (see my sig for the Priest base class)

Mother Nature also got upset with her followers, and Things Changed. Not for the better.

How do you get rid of Tier 1 classes? Cut them off at the source.

[gomipile]

Purely an aesthetic decision. One of the major points of the setting is that supernatural power is hard, requiring either massive specialization, bargains with more naturally magical beings, or very inconvenient precautions. Even though they're not mechanically problematic, the idea of manipulating the world with just a thought clashes a bit.

Still, for claiming you want tier 2 to be important, you're slashing and burning away a huge chunk of tier 2 with the decision to exclude psionics. I can see banning Erudite, of course, given your setting description.

Also, I hope you like Tome of Battle, for your players' collective sanity.

[GoatBoy]

Magic drives you insane unless you're conditioned to it, which only happens if you're born with arcane talent. Tier 1's are generally studious magic users, while tier 2's are "chosen" or just lucky.

Not a complete solution, but it's a start. Plus you can keep the tier 1's around as NPC's.

If one of your players insists on playing an insane PC... "roll each round to keep from arguing in favour of the infield fly rule, with your invisible simulacrum pasta golem Dennis."

[nocker]

Wizards and Archivist are apparently still playable, as 1 round (or less) spells can still be cast with their usual casting times. Note that doing otherwise would make them passive NPCs, because they couldn't ever fight back against an attacker.

Guards! Guards!

If all magic is ritual magic, then wizards become like real world scientists. Their game is still world changing but if things get dangerous they're basically old professors.

[Jeff the Green]

Spirit Shamans are tier 1.

Wizards and Archivist are apparently still playable, as 1 round (or less) spells can still be cast with their usual casting times. Note that doing otherwise would make them passive NPCs, because they couldn't ever fight back against an attacker.

I'm not sure Spirit Shamans are tier 1. Druid casting is a lot weaker without an animal companion or wildshape to back it up and even though they can choose spells known every day they're limited to 3/spell level. Better than Favored Soul, probably, but not tier 1.

And Wizard and archivist spells that take 1 round or less to cast have their casting time bumped up to an hour.


Still, for claiming you want tier 2 to be important, you're slashing and burning away a huge chunk of tier 2 with the decision to exclude psionics. I can see banning Erudite, of course, given your setting description.

Also, I hope you like Tome of Battle, for your players' collective sanity.

I love Tome of Battle, actually. And I'm generally open to refluffing, so they could use the crunch of a psion with the fluff (and attendant restrictions) of sorcery or divine spontaneous casters.


Guards! Guards!

If all magic is ritual magic, then wizards become like real world scientists. Their game is still world changing but if things get dangerous they're basically old professors.

:smallbiggrin: Basically. They're magic item manufacturers (outside of dwarven realms) and casters of big, important spells, but they can't adventure very well.

[gomipile]

For some inspiration on this sort of fantasy world (actually more of a tier 3 and below) you might want to read the novel Perdido Street Station.

Refluffing the psionic classes sounds good, as it gives your players some good options for character design.

Refluffed psions, wilders and ardents wouldn't actually be sorcerers, so what would you have them be beholden to? Refluffed psychic warriors, lurks, and psychic rogues shouldn't need any adjustment to their crunch at all.

Spirit shamans should fit fine in your setting as is, and represent your setting's equivalent of the druids in standard 3.5.

[nedz]

I'm not sure Spirit Shamans are tier 1. Druid casting is a lot weaker without an animal companion or wildshape to back it up and even though they can choose spells known every day they're limited to 3/spell level. Better than Favored Soul, probably, but not tier 1.

There have been several threads on this very forum where this question was discussed. Shall we say: opinion was divided.
They are not Vancian casters, but neither do they have a fixed list.