April is coming! (Game of Thrones: Season 2)

[Goosefeather]

So we have a couple (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rOzXsqoJhtE) of trailers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_AW6Bqnvqo&feature=fvst) released now - anyone else already getting excited? There are several scenes I can't wait to see on the small screen, and luckily the casting seems to match the high standard of the first season! :smallsmile:

[Cazaril]

Heck yes! I mean, it's not like I'm sitting on the edge of my seat wondering what's going to happen next (unless your talking about book 6 :smalltongue:), but I've definitely been enjoying seeing my favorite scenes from the books done in TV show form.

[Kato]

Yaaay, more awesome scenes! Niw I need to recall what happened in book 2... *thinks*
Oooooh, some nice stuff coming up. Why is't it April yet?! I want more Tyrion! (And the others)

[Killer Angel]

If they keep this pace, Martin must hurry up with the books... :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

Fun fact I didn't notice the first time: The Night's Watch is sounding three horns.

[hamlet]

Should be interesting, at least, to see what they do to the books. Some of the changes they made in the first season still have me scratching my head and wondering just what they might have been thinking.

I suspect that they're going to, eventually, start heading off in their own direction. An alternate continuity perhaps.

[Cazaril]

Should be interesting, at least, to see what they do to the books. Some of the changes they made in the first season still have me scratching my head and wondering just what they might have been thinking.

I suspect that they're going to, eventually, start heading off in their own direction. An alternate continuity perhaps.

I doubt they'll stray too far far the storyline of the books, at least until either Martin dies and stops having a say in the show, or the pace of the show overtakes the amount he's written (which just might happen, at this rate). They'll probably try pretty hard to not alienate the huge fanbase that are loyal to the books.

[Dienekes]

Should be interesting, at least, to see what they do to the books. Some of the changes they made in the first season still have me scratching my head and wondering just what they might have been thinking.

I suspect that they're going to, eventually, start heading off in their own direction. An alternate continuity perhaps.

Really? While I don't agree with all the changes, I've felt they've been reasonably true to the series. The only change that really puzzles me is the lack of Blackfish. Now admittedly his part can be done by any bannerman of Robb's, but I really wish to hear him verbally abuse Jaime. That scene was one of the highlights of the series for me.

Also, Clash of Kings on tv, the Hobbit, Batman, and Avengers movies, ME3, I have a feeling this is going to be my favorite year for entertainment for some time.

[hamlet]

Really? While I don't agree with all the changes, I've felt they've been reasonably true to the series. The only change that really puzzles me is the lack of Blackfish. Now admittedly his part can be done by any bannerman of Robb's, but I really wish to hear him verbally abuse Jaime. That scene was one of the highlights of the series for me.

Also, Clash of Kings on tv, the Hobbit, Batman, and Avengers movies, ME3, I have a feeling this is going to be my favorite year for entertainment for some time.

Most notable to me was changing one of Tyrion's finest moments, when he proves that he's not just a capering little monkey with a sharp tongue, into comedic relief and excused it by saying they didn't have the budget to film a big battle. They also changed the nature of Danny and Drogo's first night together, which significantly bothers me even now.

And I absolutely dread "The Hobbit" as a film. Dread it.

Also, "ME3"?

[Dienekes]

Most notable to me was changing one of Tyrion's finest moments, when he proves that he's not just a capering little monkey with a sharp tongue, into comedic relief and excused it by saying they didn't have the budget to film a big battle. They also changed the nature of Danny and Drogo's first night together, which significantly bothers me even now.

And I absolutely dread "The Hobbit" as a film. Dread it.

Also, "ME3"?

Honestly, Tyrion's part in the battle while regrettable isn't so important in the whole scheme of things, also from watching Rome I'm used to big battles being waved over. Tyrion is set up to actually being not a capering little monkey throughout the whole series, his love of books, his creation of a saddle for Bran, his saving Cat, his gaining the respect of the mountain clans, his accurate depiction of the chances for peace. On the whole while I am not a fan of him not charging into battle it's not that big a difference to warrant the notion that the rest of the series is going to veer off wildly from the books. On Dany and Drogo, yeah that one was weird, but again except for the scene in question the story arc lined right back up with the books.

I love the LotR movies, sure they change things from the books but I don't think change is bad so long as the end result is entertaining. Like the Godfather, changed everything from the book and is much better for it. So long as I'm entertained by the Hobbit I'll be fine. And I haven't seen a Peter Jackson film I haven't enjoyed, even the ridiculous ones.

ME3= Mass Effect 3.

[Xondoure]

Most notable to me was changing one of Tyrion's finest moments, when he proves that he's not just a capering little monkey with a sharp tongue, into comedic relief and excused it by saying they didn't have the budget to film a big battle. They also changed the nature of Danny and Drogo's first night together, which significantly bothers me even now.

And I absolutely dread "The Hobbit" as a film. Dread it.

Also, "ME3"?

To be fair Dany and Drogo's first scene took all of the horrors of arranged marriage where the woman has no say... and romanticized it. :smallyuk: Otherwise we're in agreement. Well, I remain optimistic for the Hobbit but I can understand why others would be nervous.

Also, ME3 stands for Mass Effect 3.

Edit: Ninja'd by the intended recipient. So I don't feel too bad about it.

[hamlet]

Honestly, Tyrion's part in the battle while regrettable isn't so important in the whole scheme of things, also from watching Rome I'm used to big battles being waved over. Tyrion is set up to actually being not a capering little monkey throughout the whole series, his love of books, his creation of a saddle for Bran, his saving Cat, his gaining the respect of the mountain clans, his accurate depiction of the chances for peace. On the whole while I am not a fan of him not charging into battle it's not that big a difference to warrant the notion that the rest of the series is going to veer off wildly from the books.

I love the LotR movies, sure they change things from the books but I don't think change is bad so long as the end result is entertaining. Like the Godfather, changed everything from the book and is much better for it. So long as I'm entertained by the Hobbit I'll be fine. And I haven't seen a Peter Jackson film I haven't enjoyed, even the ridiculous ones.

ME3= Mass Effect 3.

The LOTR movies put me to sleep every time. Plus, all the changes were ones that didn't have to be made. The entire thing just irks me.

ME3 . . . never played or saw anything of the first two, so the third is a mystery.

As for GOT . . . Yes, you're right. In the end, it's a small thing, and forgettable for the most part. It just bothers me. It sticks in my head and bothers me and I can't get it out. Like the costuming from time to time (honestly, the Lannister guards look like they have soup kettles on their heads!) and some of the minor things that I just can't let go.

Overall, though, it was a fairly good series. I'm just under no impression that they will strive for fidelity past a certain point. Especially if they overtake Martin's writing pace.

[Kato]

Most notable to me was changing one of Tyrion's finest moments, when he proves that he's not just a capering little monkey with a sharp tongue, into comedic relief and excused it by saying they didn't have the budget to film a big battle. They also changed the nature of Danny and Drogo's first night together, which significantly bothers me even now.


I don't do much mind leaving out the battle in the first series... though cutting it in the second will be much harder.

Yeah... that thing with Drogo bothered me. Okay, romanticizing a forced marriage is bad... but it makes Drogo quite a different character. At least that's what it did to me.
The other bigger issue I had in the first show was the cast of quite a few people... mostly Jon, Robb and Sansa. Those are early teenagers, not twenty-somethings! Urgh... and Jon and Robb looked way too much alike.
Speaking of casting... I was curious who'd be our Beauty of Tarth... Behold! (http://www.google.de/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Gwendoline+Christie&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=de&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=GyswT-78DdCF-walsJC3Ag&biw=854&bih=570&sei=HSswT-mPGcur-gaI7NWtDg) I hate it when they don't dare casting ugly people... Maybe they'll use a lot of make-up...

(Also, for all it's worth... I don't hate Jaime that much. Yeah, he's a prick, especially at the start of the show but there are so much worse people)

[Eldan]

Probably not. After all, read Tyrion's description in the book again, then look at Dinklage.

[Liffguard]

The other bigger issue I had in the first show was the cast of quite a few people... mostly Jon, Robb and Sansa. Those are early teenagers, not twenty-somethings! Urgh... and Jon and Robb looked way too much alike.
Speaking of casting... I was curious who'd be our Beauty of Tarth... Behold! (http://www.google.de/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Gwendoline+Christie&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=de&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=GyswT-78DdCF-walsJC3Ag&biw=854&bih=570&sei=HSswT-mPGcur-gaI7NWtDg) I hate it when they don't dare casting ugly people... Maybe they'll use a lot of make-up...


To be fair, GRRM himself said that if he could go back and do it again he'd make all the Stark children about five years older. He was originally planning a 5-year in-story gap between books three and four that ultimately didn't happen, hence the Stark kids being younger.

As for Brienne, I doubt that there are many genuinely large, ugly young women working as professional actresses. I'd rather they get a decent actress of roughly the right dimensions and use make-up and costuming to create the right effect.

[Seerow]

I'm personally most curious to see if we have another season with Ros getting more screen time than most of the PoV characters.

[Dr.Epic]

You people and your Game of Thrones. I haven't even seen the first season. Anyone know where I can watch it online free that isn't a pirated site?

[Dienekes]

I don't do much mind leaving out the battle in the first series... though cutting it in the second will be much harder.

Yeah... that thing with Drogo bothered me. Okay, romanticizing a forced marriage is bad... but it makes Drogo quite a different character. At least that's what it did to me.
The other bigger issue I had in the first show was the cast of quite a few people... mostly Jon, Robb and Sansa. Those are early teenagers, not twenty-somethings! Urgh... and Jon and Robb looked way too much alike.
Speaking of casting... I was curious who'd be our Beauty of Tarth... Behold! (http://www.google.de/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Gwendoline+Christie&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=de&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=GyswT-78DdCF-walsJC3Ag&biw=854&bih=570&sei=HSswT-mPGcur-gaI7NWtDg) I hate it when they don't dare casting ugly people... Maybe they'll use a lot of make-up...

(Also, for all it's worth... I don't hate Jaime that much. Yeah, he's a prick, especially at the start of the show but there are so much worse people)

GRRM ok'd the age upgrade, and actually claimed that he would have up'd them in the books if he knew where the books would have developed into.

While I have to roll my eyes at the casting of Brienne, well that's expected. So long as they make her up to be ugly I'll be ok.

And I liked Jaime as a villain, he was a fun character. Then I get into conversations with folks who seem to have magically forgotten the whole pushed a child out the window and the fact that he is a total piece of dirt. Just one who is acting slightly more intelligently than he was before. It's his fans that I despise. I know that's not fair, but I don't care. And reading the Blackfish's words was almost a tame version of what I feel like yelling at him through most the series.

[Kato]

First off: Yeah, I know about GRRM wanting the children to be older... point of fact: They are nt. And Sansa is in no way just getting her flowering... Which was kind of a point... A twenty year old probably wasn't as stupid as she is (well, on the other hand...)
The issue with Robb and Jon looking so much alike still stands. Or maybe that's just me.




As for Brienne, I doubt that there are many genuinely large, ugly young women working as professional actresses. I'd rather they get a decent actress of roughly the right dimensions and use make-up and costuming to create the right effect.
I don't know... why wouldn't there be ugly women interested in acting? Of course, they'd never get a part to play in movies because noone wants to look at them but in theatre or something I'd be surprised if there never was an unattractive woman who wanted to act and THAT'd be a chance to give such a person an opportunity.



And I liked Jaime as a villain, he was a fun character. Then I get into conversations with folks who seem to have magically forgotten the whole pushed a child out the window and the fact that he is a total piece of dirt. Just one who is acting slightly more intelligently than he was before. It's his fans that I despise. I know that's not fair, but I don't care. And reading the Blackfish's words was almost a tame version of what I feel like yelling at him through most the series.
Dunno... yeah, pushing Brann out of the window was a bastard move. But apart from that... Slaying Aerys? Dude, he should have done that years earlier, that guy was crazy. Being a prick? Many people are, he's not a monster like Clegane or anyone. Attacking Ned? Well, his wife just abducted his brother (who he cared for... which makes him about the one person in the world who did)
Actually, the bit with Brann is even kind of ooc if you take his other acts into account... being a **** is not the same as a child murderer.

And later on he gets so much better as a character, imo. I'm all for atonement.

[Dienekes]

Dunno... yeah, pushing Brann out of the window was a bastard move. But apart from that... Slaying Aerys? Dude, he should have done that years earlier, that guy was crazy. Being a prick? Many people are, he's not a monster like Clegane or anyone. Attacking Ned? Well, his wife just abducted his brother (who he cared for... which makes him about the one person in the world who did)
Actually, the bit with Brann is even kind of ooc if you take his other acts into account... being a **** is not the same as a child murderer.

And later on he gets so much better as a character, imo. I'm all for atonement.

He hasn't atoned. Or even thought for a second that he was ever wrong. He does not feel sorry for his actions. He has however gotten smarter. This is the guy who killed a child because the child was inconvenient for him, and attacked a man in the streets butchering all his men and then running away, and nonchalantly would have killed Robert if Cersei asked. Yes he had reasons, but they were all because of his short-sightedness. Also I have a natural aversion to anyone whose problems stem from their inability to keep their junk in their pants which really, besides being a heartless sociopath is the crux of his issues. Is he Gregor Clegane? No. But that is setting the bar so ridiculously low that it shouldn't even be mentioned. And if people were talking about how Clegane was good, atoned, or otherwise I would be absolutely disgusted by them.

As to the murder of Aerys, I'm with you he did the right thing. I applaud his actions. And then he never told anyone why. He just saved all of King's Landing and doesn't say that he did it. Then he complains that people don't treat him like a hero when if he thought about it for half a second he would realize that it does indeed look like he murdered a lunatic just to save his own skin. How many times did he mention "it all comes back to Aerys"? Well if he just explained himself then the only persons who would hold it over his head would be Ned, Stannis, and Selmy. He has absolutely 0 right to complain and yet he does, constantly.


Actually, the bit with Brann is even kind of ooc if you take his other acts into account... being a **** is not the same as a child murderer.

This is what baffles me. This sentence. How exactly is it out of character? He shows no compunction about killing, in fact his first response to anything getting between him and the status quo of his life is to murder it. Bran, Ned's men, Robert. His first response was always murder. Thankfully Cersei held him back from some of his actions, and it is so sadly pathetic that I am holding Cersei up as a beacon of rationality when compared to someone else.

I've seen quite a few folks try to brush his personality and actions under the rug and excuse it, taking only the parts they like about him. Or more specifically the best parts of his personality in the last 2 books. But that is not the full character any more than Sandor Clegane's drunken ravings to Sansa is all of his. Yes his backstory is sad, but he still had no compunctions with murdering a peasant bot just because he was told to. Yes Jaime is funny and gets some interesting development. He is still a cold blooded, selfish, murderer. Just one who's become smarter.

[Weezer]

My biggest concern in the effects of the various changes is one that wont be a problem for the first time until a Storm of Swords and will become a major problem in later seasons is the fact that they completely cut out (all book spoilers)
Roose Bolton. He is one of the reasons Robb is dead, his bastard burned down Winterfell and now controls most of the North as well as being married to "Ayra". Not to mention his involvement with Jamie's return to King's Landing. I just don't see how the story can progress without him.

The other changes ('Hollywood-ized' casting choices, the lack of the Blackfish, the unfortunate "let's make Tyrion trip and be knocked out by his own men" scene, the way overuse of exposition to whores, etc) weren't major enough to really feel like they changed much of anything in the large scale, despite being very irritating.

RE: Jamie's 'redemption'

I don't think he has really redeemed himself in the way that some fans like to make him out to have been redeemed, but saying that I still like him. He was one of my favorite characters from the first PoV, I have a soft spot for books told from the perspectives of the morally questionable, especially when as arrogant and witty as Jamie turned out to be.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And Sansa is in no way just getting her flowering... Which was kind of a point... A twenty year old probably wasn't as stupid as she is (well, on the other hand...)

Sansa's actress is just tall for her age. She was a year at most older than her character during the filming.

[Kato]

@C_S, okay my memory was wrong on Sansa, I thought she was about the age of the boys. (her actress) But still, she doesn't seem like... 13 was it? Why cast someone so much taller then? Meh... I guess I kind of see the point but it bugs me anyway.

Okay, for the sake of anyone not aware of the books I'll switch to spoilers.. I'm also only around the end of book 4, for all that is worth.


Short note on Bolton... it's not that big a deal maiung an unimportant character an important one... I don't even recall him contributing that much in the first book... Umber was about the only memorable lord in Robb's army for me, honest. He can easily rise to attention later on.


About Jaime... Okay, I worded it poorly. He didn't atone yet but how can you say he's not trying? He sent Brienne to find Sansa and he's hardly doing that to frame her for Joph's death. He's trying to take Riverrun without bloodshed, even asking for the Blackfish's terms for surrender. He's about as friendly there as he can be. He tried to do his best towards Cersei and Tommen while he was still in King's Landing... he might have gotten a bit smarter but also his moral compass is much... well, he pays attention to it.

Of course, those were all actions after he lost his hand which was pretty much his defininf moment... or short enough afterward so it doesn't matter.

As for before... as I said. He was a ****. Butchering Ned's men was a bastard move, but I'll give him he was angry and kind of rightly so. Still I'd never say it was good or just but there are many levels of gray morality.
Murdering Robert... hell, for all we know, he was a terrible king. And he was a terrible husband to the woman he loves/d. Again, it's not right but men have been known to do much worse things in the name of love (like, say, start a civil war killing thousands)
That thing with Aerys... yeah, it's just plain weird. I always took it to be some last shred of honor, I think at some point he thinks it's his duty to keep his kings secrets, like, how mad Aerys truly was not to shame his memory or something so he keeps quiet on it. It's really not like him to take the blame like that but... dunno. It's just really weird.

Finally... all the stuff he does... he is an arrogant prick, he thinks too much of himself and I'd never call him very smart or insightful or just... but it's still a far way from everything else he did to shoving a kid out of a window. The one thing he might haave done that came close was killing Ned's men and again... he was kind of angry then which doesn't justify it but it's kind of an explanation for what he did.

[Weezer]

@C_S, okay my memory was wrong on Sansa, I thought she was about the age of the boys. (her actress) But still, she doesn't seem like... 13 was it? Why cast someone so much taller then? Meh... I guess I kind of see the point but it bugs me anyway.

Okay, for the sake of anyone not aware of the books I'll switch to spoilers.. I'm also only around the end of book 4, for all that is worth.


Short note on Bolton... it's not that big a deal maiung an unimportant character an important one... I don't even recall him contributing that much in the first book... Umber was about the only memorable lord in Robb's army for me, honest. He can easily rise to attention later on.


About Jaime... Okay, I worded it poorly. He didn't atone yet but how can you say he's not trying? He sent Brienne to find Sansa and he's hardly doing that to frame her for Joph's death. He's trying to take Riverrun without bloodshed, even asking for the Blackfish's terms for surrender. He's about as friendly there as he can be. He tried to do his best towards Cersei and Tommen while he was still in King's Landing... he might have gotten a bit smarter but also his moral compass is much... well, he pays attention to it.

Of course, those were all actions after he lost his hand which was pretty much his defininf moment... or short enough afterward so it doesn't matter.

As for before... as I said. He was a ****. Butchering Ned's men was a bastard move, but I'll give him he was angry and kind of rightly so. Still I'd never say it was good or just but there are many levels of gray morality.
Murdering Robert... hell, for all we know, he was a terrible king. And he was a terrible husband to the woman he loves/d. Again, it's not right but men have been known to do much worse things in the name of love (like, say, start a civil war killing thousands)
That thing with Aerys... yeah, it's just plain weird. I always took it to be some last shred of honor, I think at some point he thinks it's his duty to keep his kings secrets, like, how mad Aerys truly was not to shame his memory or something so he keeps quiet on it. It's really not like him to take the blame like that but... dunno. It's just really weird.

Finally... all the stuff he does... he is an arrogant prick, he thinks too much of himself and I'd never call him very smart or insightful or just... but it's still a far way from everything else he did to shoving a kid out of a window. The one thing he might haave done that came close was killing Ned's men and again... he was kind of angry then which doesn't justify it but it's kind of an explanation for what he did.


RE: Bolton

I think that Bolton was more important to the first book than is immediately obvious. He was the one who commanded the infantry portion of Robb's army, a role that in the show was taken by Umber IIRC, and without that role I don't see how any of the other events he needs to participate in, starting with the conquest of Harrenhall could take place. Yeah, he doesn't really become important until later, but that doesn't make his grounding any less key.

[Goosefeather]

snip

Jaime is not at heart a terribly complex man. He's a soldier, with no patience for politicking. His natural response of stabbing his problems away is a set-up, narratively speaking, for the loss of his hand, which allows him to begin his character development, as he has to change his natural approach to solving problems. Similarly, he's finally getting over his Cersei-exclusive sexuality (though bugger me, he doesn't half go on about it...)

And as for Bolton, he'll be pretty important by the 5th book, so I don't see the focus on his establishment now as a bad thing. Besides, more attention to Bolton means more focus on Arya's storyline, which is always a good thing!

I do hope that when they get around to filming the 4th and 5th books, they mix the storylines up appropriately. Book 4 was a slog to get through, to be honest, and I was enormously missing the non-appearing characters even only a third of the way in.

[Dienekes]

@C_S, okay my memory was wrong on Sansa, I thought she was about the age of the boys. (her actress) But still, she doesn't seem like... 13 was it? Why cast someone so much taller then? Meh... I guess I kind of see the point but it bugs me anyway.

Okay, for the sake of anyone not aware of the books I'll switch to spoilers.. I'm also only around the end of book 4, for all that is worth.


Short note on Bolton... it's not that big a deal maiung an unimportant character an important one... I don't even recall him contributing that much in the first book... Umber was about the only memorable lord in Robb's army for me, honest. He can easily rise to attention later on.


About Jaime... Okay, I worded it poorly. He didn't atone yet but how can you say he's not trying? He sent Brienne to find Sansa and he's hardly doing that to frame her for Joph's death. He's trying to take Riverrun without bloodshed, even asking for the Blackfish's terms for surrender. He's about as friendly there as he can be. He tried to do his best towards Cersei and Tommen while he was still in King's Landing... he might have gotten a bit smarter but also his moral compass is much... well, he pays attention to it.

Of course, those were all actions after he lost his hand which was pretty much his defininf moment... or short enough afterward so it doesn't matter.

As for before... as I said. He was a ****. Butchering Ned's men was a bastard move, but I'll give him he was angry and kind of rightly so. Still I'd never say it was good or just but there are many levels of gray morality.
Murdering Robert... hell, for all we know, he was a terrible king. And he was a terrible husband to the woman he loves/d. Again, it's not right but men have been known to do much worse things in the name of love (like, say, start a civil war killing thousands)
That thing with Aerys... yeah, it's just plain weird. I always took it to be some last shred of honor, I think at some point he thinks it's his duty to keep his kings secrets, like, how mad Aerys truly was not to shame his memory or something so he keeps quiet on it. It's really not like him to take the blame like that but... dunno. It's just really weird.

Finally... all the stuff he does... he is an arrogant prick, he thinks too much of himself and I'd never call him very smart or insightful or just... but it's still a far way from everything else he did to shoving a kid out of a window. The one thing he might haave done that came close was killing Ned's men and again... he was kind of angry then which doesn't justify it but it's kind of an explanation for what he did.


On Jaime
He is not trying to atone, he is trying to change. There is a difference. He is altering his base personality to one who at least attempts to follow his oaths and doesn't handle all his problems with violence.

Robert was a terrible king, and Jaime was angry with Ned so he killed Ned's men. But what's important, is his responses. When questioned what he would have done if Robert saw him and Cersei doing that nasty his response was "I'd have killed him." His response when Robert first hit Cersei (something I definitely do not approve of, even if I do hate Cersei's guts) was asking her if she wanted him to kill Robert. His response when dealing with anger over his brother's capture is kill all of Ned's men. His response when a kid saw him doing the no pants dance with his sis was to kill the kid. The last one seems the exact same response as all the rest. He was a despicable excuse for a human being. And since he lost his hand he has made no attempt to even feel sorry for these actions.

In my eyes he's turned over a new leaf, he's made the first step toward becoming a better man, or more precisely a less violent man. But part of atonement is actually seeking reparation for his wrongs. He has never attempted to do that. He has gone from an evil character to a character with an evil past. No more, no less. Now despite my ranting I enjoying the character I think he's funny when he's not whining about how life is unfair for him, you know as he was born to the wealthiest noble family, was a naturally talented athlete and warrior, banging one of the most beautiful women in the world. Yes, I really do feel sympathy for his situation. It must have been hard living like that.


RE: Bolton

I think that Bolton was more important to the first book than is immediately obvious. He was the one who commanded the infantry portion of Robb's army, a role that in the show was taken by Umber IIRC, and without that role I don't see how any of the other events he needs to participate in, starting with the conquest of Harrenhall could take place. Yeah, he doesn't really become important until later, but that doesn't make his grounding any less key.

On Bolton:
I think there is still plenty of time to develop him. Besides all we knew about him in the first book was he was a bannerman from Robert's Rebellion and had cold eyes or some such. Besides someone had to lead those 2000 men that Tywin crushed, it might as well have been Roose, and that sets him up for the story from that point. Now not saying they'll put him there, but it could work.

[Cazaril]

Bolton's importance to the plot was kicked up a definite notch in the 5th book, so I think they'll probably try to fit him into the second season. Decide that one of the faceless bannermen is actually Bolton, or perhaps find some excuse to bring him in from elsewhere.

Of course, the fact that no-one was explicitly cast for him, even in the second season, does throw a wrench into that theory.

[Weezer]

Of course, the fact that no-one was explicitly cast for him, even in the second season, does throw a wrench into that theory.

This is kind of the basis of my worry, though with Martin (supposedly) having such a heavy involvement in the show, it's odd that something this important has been overlooked. Hopefully it hasn't and for whatever reason their preparations for introducing him are simply not visible from the information we have.

[Dienekes]

Umm, unless my admittedly haphazard internet sources are wrong Michael McElhatton was cast as Roose.

[Weezer]

Umm, unless my admittedly haphazard internet sources are wrong Michael McElhatton was cast as Roose.

Apparently I missed that. Glad they're working him in.

[Cazaril]

Aha! I check the Wiki of Ice and Fire, and no actor was listed for Bolton. Glad to see that I'd missed something. :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

Looked him up since I never heard of him before. A few of the pictures certainly make him look the part, or close enough.


http://www.boomtron.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Michael-McElhatton.jpg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGK1qSflhzakqkP2GTyDKF5Yp0rFJF-86VdwUqXlGv6MXJqMrO67rhhuvxmw

[hamlet]

On Jamie: I think it should be important to note that nobody really knows that he pitched a kid out a window. As far as most people are concerned, his only real crime is killing Aerys. The thing with Ned wasn't so much a crime as an argument that got out of hand and probably could have been handled quietly if not for the whole war thing.

Bolton: In the show, it bothered me that he passed by so quickly and without mention. That's a character that needed introduction as scary. Otherwise, he's going to seem like he comes out of nowhere for everybody who's not familiar with the books.

Brienne's Actress: I dunno. The actress is, certainly, beautiful. However, it's been stated that she did show up to the audition "uglied up" and that the makeup on screen was going to follow suit. However, I always get the sense from the novels that she's not really quite as objectively ugly as the POV's make her out to be. At the very least, Jamie himself seems to be moderately sorta kinda attracted to her on some level. Or that might just be him having been imprisoned for long enough. I have some kind of inkling that, in the end, she might be revealed as being, if not beautiful, then at least not freakisly ugly. That's just my take on it, though and probably influenced by the strong connection I have with the character.

Ugly Actors: Well, setting aside the trouble with identifying people as objectively ugly or not, there's a simple, unavoidable fact in the modern world today. We don't want to look at ugly people on television or in movies except as comedy. Not even in pathos. They cast "pretty" people at least significantly in part because we, the audience, demand it. Thus, we get Peter Dinklage who's just too handsome, really, to play the part of Tyrion even though he does so well with the role.

[Eldan]

Isn't she, mostly, just described as very tall and broad-shouldered for a woman, with a kinda plain face?

[hamlet]

Isn't she, mostly, just described as very tall and broad-shouldered for a woman, with a kinda plain face?

Mention is also made of being broad of face with a very strong jaw and relatively flat chested.

And looks horrible in a dress.

And, maybe I'm misremembering, but strange looking teeth.

[SlayerScott]

OK, who said Robert was a terrible King? His rebellion led to the overthrowing of the Mad King Aerys and it was nothing but peace and prosperity on his watch. The King before him was Aerys and the King after him is Joffrey. He managed to hold the Lannisters in check and keep peace in the North. His death led to an immediate bloody civil war. He was merciful(pardoning Selmy and others after the War) at times and brutal when he had to be(ordering Daenerys' assasination). Robert Baratheon was the greatest King in the History of the 7 Kingdoms. A little drinking and whoring (ok, maybe a lot) is a small price to pay, and most people would if they were married to Cersei.

[Weezer]

Isn't she, mostly, just described as very tall and broad-shouldered for a woman, with a kinda plain face?

Tall, broad shouldered, very muscular/heavy, no breasts to speak of, plain to ugly face (I think I remember the word 'squashed' used to refer to her face at one point), wispy/thin hair (no flowing golden locks here), and then the fact that Jamie refers to her as a cow (though he may just be being an ass) and the amount that Catlyn pitied her looks seems to indicate that she was more on the ugly side of things than the merely plain side.

To quote from the wiki:


Brienne is abnormally large and strong for a woman, and exceeds most men in size. She has large, very blue eyes that appear trusting and guileless, but they are her only attractive feature. She is extremely broad-shouldered, but has virtually no bust. Her face is broad and coarse, with a nose that has been broken several times. Her mouth is too wide, with prominent and crooked teeth and lips so plump they seem swollen. Her hair is the color of dirty straw and her face is mottled with freckles.

When asked about her height Martin commented:
"Brienne is well over six feet tall, but not close to seven, no. Just off the top of my head, I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime and significantly heavier than either, but nowhere near the size of Gregor Clegane, who is the true giant in the series. Shorter than Hodor and the Greatjon, maybe a bit shorter than the Hound, maybe roughly the same height as Robert."

[Eldan]

He did manage to put the crown three million in debt to foreign banks and the Lannisters, though.

[Weezer]

He did manage to put the crown three million in debt to foreign banks and the Lannisters, though.

I think that the biggest problem with his reign is that he didn't rule. He sat around and drank himself to death while a group of rather untrustworthy advisors ruled the realm amidst their personal plotting and scheming.

[hamlet]

OK, who said Robert was a terrible King? His rebellion led to the overthrowing of the Mad King Aerys and it was nothing but peace and prosperity on his watch. The King before him was Aerys and the King after him is Joffrey. He managed to hold the Lannisters in check and keep peace in the North. His death led to an immediate bloody civil war. He was merciful(pardoning Selmy and others after the War) at times and brutal when he had to be(ordering Daenerys' assasination). Robert Baratheon was the greatest King in the History of the 7 Kingdoms. A little drinking and whoring (ok, maybe a lot) is a small price to pay, and most people would if they were married to Cersei.

He did leave the crown millions in debt.

He managed to maintain the peace simply by virtue that, for the most part, everybody was weary of war after the rebellion, and, frankly, he was good at war and not a whole lot else.

He was a rotten husband and father (though that's hardly a condemnation of his skills as a leader).

He was incapable of or simply uninterested in the actual mechanisms and affairs of state leaving all such matters to his obviously scheming and two faced advisors banking on his hand's ability (questionable) to keep them in check.

He was incapable, on a basic level, of looking at himself critically and rode long and tiringly on his past fame.

He let his dissapointment and depression consume him.

He did nothing of real significance while on the throne.

Aerys was, actually, not a bad king at all prior to the captivity at Duskendale (though that's perhaps a mild, very mild, spoiler for a future book), who left the kingdom flush with funds and economically and personally prosperous. His madness was a direct result of a combination of genetics (a history of madness in the family) and post traumatic stress disorder in an age prior to psychological counseling. And a bit of inferiority/superiority complexes thrown in for flavoring.

Joffrey . . . Joffrey shouldn't even count given as he's ludicrously mad and, in the end, it was his mother who ruled the entire time.


What it boils down to, and what is actually stated at some points in the books, is that while Robert might not have been a "bad" king per se, he was definately not a good one. His reign is exemplified with one of the first things we see him do, appoint Ned as Hand quite literally so that he doesn't have to be bothered with any affairs of state. Robert never wanted to be a king and never had the capacity to be a good one. It was a cruel joke, in the end, that plopped his backside on the throne, and the fact that out of the three Baratheon brothers he was the best of them is nothing short of depressing.

[Selrahc]

He did manage to put the crown three million in debt to foreign banks and the Lannisters, though.

And his failure to notice his cuckolding left the realm without an unchallenged heir. He stoked up rivalries between his two brothers leaving the conflict from Clash of Kings to unfold. He left the remaining Targaryans alive and fomenting rebellion. He let the wall run ragged and understaffed. He failed to properly raise or take an interest in Joffrey who he believed was his heir. He let monsters like the Mountain run around, despite the protests of Dorne. He got the crown firmly tied to the Lannisters. The Iron Islands kicked up a large rebellion and while he crushed it, ultimately the situation was left to fester.

Robert was rubbish. If he'd tried, even a little, then he could have easily fixed or avoided most of those problems. Robert was the first ruler after the Dragons. He was supposed to forge a lasting dynasty to leave the Baratheons on the throne. Instead he fails to leave a true heir and whips up destructive conflict between his brothers.

[Axolotl]

OK, who said Robert was a terrible King?Well, Robert did for a start.


His rebellion led to the overthrowing of the Mad King Aerys and it was nothing but peace and prosperity on his watch.Greyjoy rebellion.


The King before him was Aerys and the King after him is Joffrey. He managed to hold the Lannisters in check and keep peace in the North. His death led to an immediate bloody civil war.And this is why he's a bad king, even overlooking his getting the kingdom into massive debt, he failed to provide a proper heir, that's prtty much the only thing he needed to do and he failed causing a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people.


He was merciful(pardoning Selmy and others after the War) at timesHe was also merciful to the Greyjoys and the Lannisters, look how well that went.


and brutal when he had to be(ordering Daenerys' assasination).Which almost caused an invasion by a massive barbarian horde that was only prevented by factors beyond Roberts control (or knowledge).



Robert Baratheon was the greatest King in the History of the 7 Kingdoms. A little drinking and whoring (ok, maybe a lot) is a small price to pay, and most people would if they were married to Cersei.How is he the greatest? He caused huge ammounts of debt, allowed Tywin, Varys, Littlefinger and other such threats to gain huge ammounts of power and then allowed political tensions to get to the point where his death caused a civil war that is still ongoing and doesn't look to be cooling down all that much.

[hamlet]

Not to mention his supposed mercy.

He was merciful, often, to the wrong people, and harsh on the wrong people.

Greyjoy should have been smacked quite a bit harder after his little rebellion. He had a history of it even then, but that one's arguable.

He should have simply ignored Danny, though. If he had, she would have gone on to live a life quietly across the Narrow Sea who either would have set aside her aspirations for the Iron Throne, or simply would not have been able to realize them. The failed assassin accomplished precisely one thing. Galvanizing Drogo and Danny on that course of action, which eventually (and convalutedly) led to the death of her unborn son and Drogo himself which put Danny in a position to gain dragons, probably one of the most significant as yet to play out events in the novels.

[Dienekes]

Not to mention his supposed mercy.

He was merciful, often, to the wrong people, and harsh on the wrong people.

Greyjoy should have been smacked quite a bit harder after his little rebellion. He had a history of it even then, but that one's arguable.

He should have simply ignored Danny, though. If he had, she would have gone on to live a life quietly across the Narrow Sea who either would have set aside her aspirations for the Iron Throne, or simply would not have been able to realize them. The failed assassin accomplished precisely one thing. Galvanizing Drogo and Danny on that course of action, which eventually (and convalutedly) led to the death of her unborn son and Drogo himself which put Danny in a position to gain dragons, probably one of the most significant as yet to play out events in the novels.

Yes but he had no way of knowing of Dany's intentions. Really Robert needed to leave her alone or use all his powers to annihilate her. What he did only pissed her off and made her want revenge. Which was a reflection on how Robert handled his reign, he obviously had no idea what he was doing never thought about consequences and spent all his time whoring and drinking.

Reading the books and their history, I have no idea why the Ironborn haven't been wiped out yet. There entire history seem to be an endless cycle of raiding their own allies, rebelling, and getting viciously smacked down. Yes Robert should have been more final with them, but every conqueror should have been.

He also put his friends and family in charge when they really weren't the right ones for the job. Renly was an idiot, Littlefinger was a toady, Stannis had little grasp of the proper way to make laws (wanting to abolish prostitution), Varys and Pycelle were of questionable loyalty, and Ned was a terrible choice for Hand as he had absolutely no idea how to handle the machinations of the court.

The only proper choice he made was staying in Westeros because even he realized no matter how bad a king he was, Cersei and Joffrey would be worse.

[hamlet]

Renly wasn't an idiot. He was a foppish boy enamored of the glamor and glitter of the court and of his own worth. Otherwise, he was actually quite clever.

Or, rather, he wasn't any more of an idiot than many others within the story. He merely does not stand above his peers like some of the truly crafty and intelligent players do. He was a pawn from day one, and just never realized it.

[SlayerScott]

I'd argue that until installing Ned as Hand of the King his personnel decisions were excellent. Jon Arryn was great at an incredibly difficult job. Robert kept Stannis in a sort of semi-exile where he couldn't have a major influence on the run of the kingdom. It was said that Littlefinger excelled at his job of Master of Coin, toady though he may be. The debts incurred to the Crown were mostly to the Lannisters, and being married to Cersei that debt would never get called in. It also certainly didn't seem that when he was alive and in power that it gave any sort of influence to the Lannisters, and certainly no more influence than Cersei would have had anyway as his wife. Varys was an excellent choice for counsel, as his work as spymaster was impeccable and he ultimately had the kingdom's best interests at heart. He put the Greyjoy rebellion down comparatively easily. And on the subject of heirs, apparently he left lots of them i.e. Gendry for one.

And frankly, it was not easy staffing those positions. Almost all of the Westeros nobility are shady except the Starks and they're repeatedly punished for it.

[hamlet]

Gendry is not, nor can he ever be, an heir. He's the son of a whore as I recall and a bastard to boot. Never legitimized even though he is fairly obviously the son of Robert.

Littlefinger is not a toady. Not in the slightest.

Jon may have been a fairly decent hand on the surface of things, but he let a lot of the bad things happen and didn't prevent the situation from becoming the powder keg it was by the start of the first book.

The debt is about 50% to the Lannisters, and probably at least 40% to the Iron Bank of Braavos. Which is worse is a matter for debate, but effectively, the one will come after its debt with swords, the other will simply setle for owning the kingdom outright.

Varys an excellent choice for counsel? Eh?

Have you read the books? Or are you operating only on an understanding of the television show? Just curious.

[Weezer]

Renly wasn't an idiot. He was a foppish boy enamored of the glamor and glitter of the court and of his own worth. Otherwise, he was actually quite clever.

Or, rather, he wasn't any more of an idiot than many others within the story. He merely does not stand above his peers like some of the truly crafty and intelligent players do. He was a pawn from day one, and just never realized it.

I don't think Renly gets enough credit, if it weren't for one single, completely unforeseeable event, he would almost certainly have been king. He was good enough at reading the political situation to know that him and Ned needed to seize control even before Robert dies and he was smart enough to know when to run. His downfall was being killed by a shadow, not something he could really guard against.

[Dienekes]

Renly wasn't an idiot. He was a foppish boy enamored of the glamor and glitter of the court and of his own worth. Otherwise, he was actually quite clever.

Or, rather, he wasn't any more of an idiot than many others within the story. He merely does not stand above his peers like some of the truly crafty and intelligent players do. He was a pawn from day one, and just never realized it.

He held a tourney in the middle of a campaign. He only was interested in his glamor and playing the king. I'll agree calling him an idiot was probably too far, but I do think he was the dumbest of the council.


I'd argue that until installing Ned as Hand of the King his personnel decisions were excellent. Jon Arryn was great at an incredibly difficult job. Robert kept Stannis in a sort of semi-exile where he couldn't have a major influence on the run of the kingdom. It was said that Littlefinger excelled at his job of Master of Coin, toady though he may be. The debts incurred to the Crown were mostly to the Lannisters, and being married to Cersei that debt would never get called in. It also certainly didn't seem that when he was alive and in power that it gave any sort of influence to the Lannisters, and certainly no more influence than Cersei would have had anyway as his wife. Varys was an excellent choice for counsel, as his work as spymaster was impeccable and he ultimately had the kingdom's best interests at heart. He put the Greyjoy rebellion down comparatively easily. And on the subject of heirs, apparently he left lots of them i.e. Gendry for one.

And frankly, it was not easy staffing those positions. Almost all of the Westeros nobility are shady except the Starks and they're repeatedly punished for it.

Jon Arryn kept Westeros afloat, barely. Stannis was not in semi-exile he ran away himself after Arryn's death. Also having an exiled councilor is a rather idiotic way to run a kingdom anyway. Littlefinger was good at making money, and of Robert's choices I disagree with him the least because barring what we know about him as readers with insight to his schemes he seems like a good choice. He did act like a toady throughout the first book until the reveal and he continues acting like that to Joffrey. He gave a lot of influence to the Lannisters, and specifically the wrong ones. His court was swarmed with the buggers. Varys is the biggest wild card in the deck and considering his finally revealed plans was a terrible choice. Even if we didn't know his plans he was a terrible choice just through logic. Aerys was the one who picked him and rose him to prominence and he was loyal to Aerys until the day Aerys died. Getting him out of the council would be the first move. As for heirs each of them represents a potential rebellion and all of them are only worth something if the position of heir was empty, which it wasn't. It was filled by Joffrey who had all the signs of being an incompetent from an early age.


I don't think Renly gets enough credit, if it weren't for one single, completely unforeseeable event, he would almost certainly have been king. He was good enough at reading the political situation to know that him and Ned needed to seize control even before Robert dies and he was smart enough to know when to run. His downfall was being killed by a shadow, not something he could really guard against.


His downfall was splitting his house and support to make a power grab thinking he could win when by all accounts he had no idea how to run a campaign. Now he might have still won just because his underlings were far more competent than him, though I doubt it. Even if he had beaten Stannis and absorbed Stannis army if anything his advance on King's Landing would have been slower since the battle would have actually taken place giving Tywin more time to reach and defend King's Landing as he did with Stannis.

However he recognized the political situation better than Ned. Of course, everyone did.

[SlayerScott]

Yup, read all the books(but it's been a little while now). What actions did Varys take that negatively affected King Robert's reign? I mean, the stuff with Dany and the Dothraki - he was the one keeping tabs on that situation. He was the one with an eye on the South when the others (westeros nobles, not Zombies)all seemed to be completely ignoring it. I mean, the point about spurring them into action is valid but how could Robert have known that's how it would play out? Without Jorah Mormont falling in love with Daenerys that would have been the end of the threat from the south. And no one could have predicted the Dragons.

Gendry is only one of many of Robert's bastards, and thus far the surprise sibling of questionable lineage is a trick no one seems to be particularly upset about. The second "Arya" Stark ? Aegon Targaryen?

Personally, I didn't think Littlefinger was a toady either, I was quoting someone else.

The only Kings after the first wave of Dragons were Aerys, Robert, Joffrey and Tommen (Cersei). I'm saying Robert was a way better King than any of them. The previous Targaryen Kings had Dragons, and it's implied that they weren't necessarily very good Kings either.

[Dienekes]

Yup, read all the books(but it's been a little while now). What actions did Varys take that negatively affected King Robert's reign? I mean, the stuff with Dany and the Dothraki - he was the one keeping tabs on that situation. He was the one with an eye on the South when the others (westeros nobles, not Zombies)all seemed to be completely ignoring it. I mean, the point about spurring them into action is valid but how could Robert have known that's how it would play out? Without Jorah Mormont falling in love with Daenerys that would have been the end of the threat from the south. And no one could have predicted the Dragons.

His entire plan was revealed to be to put Aegon on the throne. He was literally plotting against Robert the entire time he was working for him.


Gendry is only one of many of Robert's bastards, and thus far the surprise sibling of questionable lineage is a trick no one seems to be particularly upset about. The second "Arya" Stark ? Aegon Targaryen?

Both those examples are rightful heirs or pretending to be based off of noble blood. Robert's bastards are low born bastards there is a difference.


The only Kings after the first wave of Dragons were Aerys, Robert, Joffrey and Tommen (Cersei). I'm saying Robert was a way better King than any of them. The previous Targaryen Kings had Dragons, and it's implied that they weren't necessarily very good Kings either.

Huh? There were hundreds of years of Targ kings some good, some bad. The fact that Robert was better than a madman, a sociopath, and a child is hardly something to praise him for.

[hamlet]

Varys was a holdover from Aerys' day, and loyal to that man to the very last day. He's suspicious. Not to be trusted. Anybody with an ounce of sense looks at him sideways, and it's wholly justified. It's like taking out the dictator of a hostile country, but leaving his equally dangerous leitenant around to run the shop for you. In fact, it's exactly that.

Gendry CAN'T be an heir. Not because he isn't Robert's son, but because he's a baseborn bastard. He cannot be elevated to the throne. No "lost sibling" about it.

As for Dany et al., sometimes, there are problems that must be dealt with by simply letting themselves fall apart. Danny and Viserys had no means of support except Drogo, who despite leading a 40k strong army had no real means of getting it across the sea, and even if he suddenly found a way, the Iron Throne's presence at sea is significantly more powerful and capable of sinking any ship full of Dothraki who probably couldn't be convinced to make the journey in the first place.

On top of that, if they somehow managed to land in Westeros, it's pointed out repeated in the text that the Dothraki are pillagers, not conquerors. They do not have the temperment for the style of warfare that would be required to actually take the Seven Kingdoms. Any commander worth his salt would sit behind his walls and let the Dothraki blow themselves out like a fart in the wind and then mop up whatever leftovers there were.

There were a good number of kings after the dragons were gone, including more than one very good king. Maegor IV, Aegon IV, Aegon V, etc. Would have been Rheagar (potentially, we're not quite sure) if he had survived.

[hamlet]

Huh? There were hundreds of years of Targ kings some good, some bad. The fact that Robert was better than a madman, a sociopath, and a child is hardly something to praise him for.

Arguably better than the madman. I maintain that, on some level and up till the Duskendale incident, Aerys was, simply, a better king.

[Axolotl]

Look for Robert I can count at least five people all of whom were in positions of power who spent Robert's entire rule plotting some sort of coup of these only one was ever given difficulty and that's just because he acted too soon, three of the others were given huge ammounts of influence and power allowing them to plot unimpeeded. Conversely I count maybe three people he could fully trust, one of whom he drove away and the other two he largely ignored. This is not good leadership.


I don't think Renly gets enough credit, if it weren't for one single, completely unforeseeable event, he would almost certainly have been king. He was good enough at reading the political situation to know that him and Ned needed to seize control even before Robert dies and he was smart enough to know when to run. His downfall was being killed by a shadow, not something he could really guard against.The thing is that event wasn't unforseeable, sure the specifics of it are but Renly should have realised that Stannis had some trick up his sleeve.

[Selrahc]

Gendry CAN'T be an heir. Not because he isn't Robert's son, but because he's a baseborn bastard. He cannot be elevated to the throne. No "lost sibling" about it.

Edric Storm on the other hand...

[hamlet]

Edric Storm on the other hand...

Possible, but hardly likely. Edric's importance has more to do with "proving" that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella aren't Robert's children after all.

Plus, as far as I know, Edric was not declared, which would be neccessary.

[Weezer]

Edric Storm on the other hand...

Is still a bastard. For a bastard, whether high or low born, to inherit he must be legitimized either by his father (who in the case of Edric is dead) or the King (fat chance of that ever happening in this chance).

[Kato]

The thing is that event wasn't unforseeable, sure the specifics of it are but Renly should have realised that Stannis had some trick up his sleeve.

What? How could he? Because he didn't surrender earlier? I don't see any proper reason to suspect him using frigging magic...


short @Brienne

The way Catelyn pities her when they meet ("Is there a more pitiable creature in this world than an ugly woman?" or something to that extent makes it pretty clear she's not just homely or something...


I don't quite understand the hate Varys gets... Given (again) I don't know the fifth book but from what I know he might be ruthless about it but I totally buy him having the realms' best interest at heart which is why he supports Ned and Tyrion the way he does, they did the same for the most part
Yeah, he was ruthless and not everything he does was nice but still, I see him as possibly THE best counselors Robert had (not for him himself, because he was of no use to the realm but for the realm itself) Petyr was able but egoistic, Renly was... well, not that bad but not smart enough, Stannis is... Stannis, duh. And Pycelle even though he's not really a jerk is just way too old and useless. (Which is one of the few things Cersei saw right)
Or maybe I'm thinking about Varys as well as I do is because I compare him to his frigging replacement later... Qyburn. I liked him at the start but by now... oh my god. Nothig better than a good torturer... with a weird interest in anatomy.



Also, Robert was a terrible king. He was a poor person, for the most part, not evil but poor, but someone like him ruling a kingdom... yeah, I might even welcome his death as a blessing if there would have been a decent hire. But Cersei pretty much screwed that up by being unable to raise Joff either.


As for the heir issue... dunno. I can see Gendry taking it but I'm not willing to bet five bucks on that.

By the way, weird theory (as far as I know)

I kind of got it in my head that Jon is not really Ned's bastard but Lysanne's and Rhaegar's son. Opinions?

[Selrahc]

Plus, as far as I know, Edric was not declared, which would be neccessary.

Edric was Robert's declared bastard, and the boy was visited by Robert semi frequently with Varys sending him gifts in Roberts name rather more often. He wasn't legitimized though.


Is still a bastard. For a bastard, whether high or low born, to inherit he must be legitimized either by his father (who in the case of Edric is dead) or the King (fat chance of that ever happening in this chance).

Given the examples of the Iron Islands, Dorne and Myrcella, Renly and the fact that Robert took the realm illegitimately, it might not be so important that the law isn't behind the attempt if he has a backer.

And of all the Kings, I think Stannis is the most likely to legitimize Edric. Stannis is fundamentally ill suited to be king. He even knows this himself and doesn't truly want the crown, seeing it as a duty he must shoulder rather than a prize. His bigger concern is elsewhere. I could see Stannis legitimizing Edric and putting him on the throne as Robert's legitimate heir. Or I could see that not happening.

[hamlet]

I kind of got it in my head that Jon is not really Ned's bastard but Lysanne's and Rhaegar's son. Opinions?

Hardly a spoiler by now, and certainly one of the most common fan theories out there as to Jon's parentage. I.e., R+L=J exists for a reason.

About Varys: Yes, he has the kingdom's best interests at heart. It's just that his definition of "the kingdom's best interests" does not coincide with "good counselor to current regime." Not in the slightest.

[Dienekes]

Well first off I don't think anyone hates Varys. Varys' is freaking awesome. We're saying it was stupid for Robert to trust him. Or for anyone to for that matter. Heck the first real time we see how much a conniver he is he's discussing whether he should straight up murder Ned. Looking at his history Varys is a very competent, incredibly intelligent spymaster who was raised to Lordhood (of nothing admittedly) by Aerys Targaryen and stayed loyal to him throughout the war, only going over to Robert after Aerys was dead. He should have been fired, if not permanently removed from court. Instead Robert lets him keep his position and spoilers for book 5:
It is revealed that the entire time he was plotting to overthrow Robert anyway and actually has a hand in making sure that Westeros is in a continuous state of turmoil until he can do just that.

As for Pycelle I'm curious just how useless he really is. He's lasted, longer than just about anyone else through terrible king after terrible king and successfully checked Cersei when she got out of hand a few times. Mind you he's not as smart as Littlefinger or Varys, or as competent as Tywin and Kevan but I don't think he'd last that long without learning a thing or three.

[hamlet]

Pycell's problem is, strictly, complacance. He thought he was indispensible and ensured the stability of his position by sucking up to those he perceived to be in power.

The problem is that he sucked up to the wrong people, in the end and didn't manage to realize it until too late.

If he had kept himself more focused on doing his job, he probably would have done better as his real downfall starts with doing something stupid with Tyrion. If he had avoided that, he could have ridden high, or at least semi-comfortably, all the way through.

[hamlet]

This is not a double post. You can go about your business.

Move along, citizen.

[Weezer]

Edric was Robert's declared bastard, and the boy was visited by Robert semi frequently with Varys sending him gifts in Roberts name rather more often. He wasn't legitimized though.



Given the examples of the Iron Islands, Dorne and Myrcella, Renly and the fact that Robert took the realm illegitimately, it might not be so important that the law isn't behind the attempt if he has a backer.

And of all the Kings, I think Stannis is the most likely to legitimize Edric. Stannis is fundamentally ill suited to be king. He even knows this himself and doesn't truly want the crown, seeing it as a duty he must shoulder rather than a prize. His bigger concern is elsewhere. I could see Stannis legitimizing Edric and putting him on the throne as Robert's legitimate heir. Or I could see that not happening.

Yes, but if you're ignoring legality then anyone that could even vaguely be connected to Robert is a possibility.

With how Stannis felt about Robert's mistresses and bastards, I do not think he would ever legitimize one of Robert's bastards. He harbors way too much resentment for that.


Well first off I don't think anyone hates Varys. Varys' is freaking awesome. We're saying it was stupid for Robert to trust him. Or for anyone to for that matter. Heck the first real time we see how much a conniver he is he's discussing whether he should straight up murder Ned. Looking at his history Varys is a very competent, incredibly intelligent spymaster who was raised to Lordhood (of nothing admittedly) by Aerys Targaryen and stayed loyal to him throughout the war, only going over to Robert after Aerys was dead. He should have been fired, if not permanently removed from court. Instead Robert lets him keep his position and spoilers for book 5:
It is revealed that the entire time he was plotting to overthrow Robert anyway and actually has a hand in making sure that Westeros is in a continuous state of turmoil until he can do just that.


And even before book 5, way back in book 1 when Ayra gets lost chasing the cat, you are shown what are almost certainly Varys and Illyrio plotting, discussing how their plans to turn Stark against Lannister have accelerated and that their other plans (those dealing with Dany/Viserys IIRC) would have to be adjusted to match. It is very clear from the beginning that Varys was scheming to undermine Robert's government and bring back the Targaryens.

[Kato]

Hardly a spoiler by now, and certainly one of the most common fan theories out there as to Jon's parentage. I.e., R+L=J exists for a reason.
Well, I tried to stay away from the fandom until I'm entirely up-to-date so I didn't know but I suspected I wasn't alone (though, could have been confirmed in book 5 or something)


About Varys: Yes, he has the kingdom's best interests at heart. It's just that his definition of "the kingdom's best interests" does not coincide with "good counselor to current regime." Not in the slightest.


It is very clear from the beginning that Varys was scheming to undermine Robert's government and bring back the Targaryens.
Well, yeah... "best for the realm" =! "best for Robert" because... Robert is Robert. And most people are aware what a high quality king he was. Though I guess he didn't foresee the problems after his death.

[hamlet]

Well, I tried to stay away from the fandom until I'm entirely up-to-date so I didn't know but I suspected I wasn't alone (though, could have been confirmed in book 5 or something)



Nope. Not revealed in any book thus far.

The speculation is rampant and that is simply the most likely, least insane theory.

[Weezer]

Well, yeah... "best for the realm" =! "best for Robert" because... Robert is Robert. And most people are aware what a high quality king he was. Though I guess he didn't foresee the problems after his death.

I still never bought the whole 'best for the realm' thing, I always interpreted that as simply what he told people were his motives so they would trust him. He was loyal to the Targs, through and through, from the beginning. Everything he did was in line with that loyalty.

The people close to Robert certainly had a very different view of how good of a king he was, as do most of the readers I've come across. I'm still not sure how you came to the conclusion that he was a good king, he hardly ruled, but instead whored, drank and hunted his way into an early grave while handing the realm over to schemers and sycophants. Not a good rein in my eyes.

[Selrahc]

Yes, but if you're ignoring legality then anyone that could even vaguely be connected to Robert is a possibility.


Sure. But Edric is a highborn lad, an acknowledged bastard, charismatic and reminiscent of both Robert and Renly. If you're picking candidates to put up for kingship amongst Robert's bastards, Edric seems far and away the best candidate.



With how Stannis felt about Robert's mistresses and bastards, I do not think he would ever legitimize one of Robert's bastards. He harbors way too much resentment for that.


Davos has taken a liking to the kid and Davos makes Stannis do things that Stannis would ordinarily reject out of hand. I could definitely see Davos and Stannis having a conversation that results in Stannis legitimizing Edric.


All that Stannis seems to care about is filling Melisandres prophecy and battling the forces of cold and darkness. A king committed to that who would fully support Stannis in his quest would be just as valuable to Stannis as actually having the spiky chair for himself.


I'm not saying it's likely, but I do think that if we see Edric rise in prominence and become a candidate before the series is out... I won't be surprised. EDIT: And I'd certainly peg him over Gendry.

[Axolotl]

What? How could he? Because he didn't surrender earlier? I don't see any proper reason to suspect him using frigging magic...He had no reason to suspect Stannis of magic but he certainly should have known Stannis would do something. I mean it's Stannis, probably one of the smartest lords in Westeros and the most cautious Renly should have known Stannis wouldn't attack without some sort of edge, even if it wasn't magic. Renly could have been killed the same way Robb or Joffrey were, yes Stannis' magic was more efffective than he could have expected but Renly didn't expect anything moren than Stannis' army and that's why he died.



I don't quite understand the hate Varys gets... Given (again) I don't know the fifth book but from what I know he might be ruthless about it but I totally buy him having the realms' best interest at heart which is why he supports Ned and Tyrion the way he does, they did the same for the most part
Yeah, he was ruthless and not everything he does was nice but still, I see him as possibly THE best counselors Robert had (not for him himself, because he was of no use to the realm but for the realm itself) Petyr was able but egoistic, Renly was... well, not that bad but not smart enough, Stannis is... Stannis, duh. And Pycelle even though he's not really a jerk is just way too old and useless. (Which is one of the few things Cersei saw right)
Or maybe I'm thinking about Varys as well as I do is because I compare him to his frigging replacement later... Qyburn. I liked him at the start but by now... oh my god. Nothig better than a good torturer... with a weird interest in anatomy.
Read the fifth Book. Also that Varys is his best advisor should stand to show just how poor his council was. The only people he ever had who was trustworthy were Jon and Ned both of whom were far too nice to be effective enough (not to mention Ned is fairly useless at subtle politics). I mean he really should have used Stannis more, sure he's the lifetime winner of the "Least fun person in all Westeros" award (an impressive achivement considering the competition but he was smart and loyal, and that's what Robert needed, a feudal Malcolm Tucker not some backwaters Northener who comes from a place where all the evil people pretty much go around with huge neon signs proclaiming their evilness. Ultimately Varys lacks one key thing needed in an advisor and that's loyalty, that everyone else was even less loyal doesn't change this.


By the way, weird theory (as far as I know)

I kind of got it in my head that Jon is not really Ned's bastard but Lysanne's and Rhaegar's son. Opinions?
[spoiler]That's probably the most discussed theory ever relating to ASoIaF, I'm not a far of it myself but I can see where it's coming from.[/spioler]

[hamlet]

[spoiler]That's probably the most discussed theory ever relating to ASoIaF, I'm not a far of it myself but I can see where it's coming from.[/spioler]

The problem is, then, what are your alternative theories? Based on what?

I mean, yeah, I have my reservations about it, but I think it's the likliest explanation.

[Dienekes]

Stannis, probably one of the smartest lords in Westeros

Huh? Stannis? How do you figure? I mean he isn't stupid but I haven't seen anything to indicate he was exceptionally smart. Stubborn as all hell, sure. Overly confrontational even to his allies, definitely. Unfeeling and demanding, without a shadow of a doubt. Unable to really relate to or inspire his men, of course. But smartest lord in Westeros? Not that I've seen.

[Weezer]

The problem is, then, what are your alternative theories? Based on what?

I mean, yeah, I have my reservations about it, but I think it's the likliest explanation.

I'm kind of hoping that Jon is actually Ned's bastard and his mother turns out to be some random peasant girl. I don't think that I would like it if Martin pulled the whole "hidden prince comes from hiding/obscurity to save his kingdom" thing, especially since it would be (5th book spoilers)
the second time it happens in the story. Before Aegon's reveal, I would've been more okay with it, but we don't need this already cliched plot point happening twice. Doesn't help that I dislike Jon. A lot. He's getting better though (or was :smallbiggrin:).

Another big strike against it is the whole "just got murdered thing", and since one of the more foreshadowed ways of his survival is that he wargs into ghost for the rest of ever, he's not really in a place to inherit.

[hamlet]

Huh? Stannis? How do you figure? I mean he isn't stupid but I haven't seen anything to indicate he was exceptionally smart. Stubborn as all hell, sure. Overly confrontational even to his allies, definitely. Unfeeling and demanding, without a shadow of a doubt. Unable to really relate to or inspire his men, of course. But smartest lord in Westeros? Not that I've seen.

Not only not executing Davos, but recognizing his loyalty, intelligence, and perseverence and then promoting him to a position of power and actually listening to him.

That, if nothing else, puts him head and shoulders above a lot of others.

[hamlet]

I'm kind of hoping that Jon is actually Ned's bastard and his mother turns out to be some random peasant girl. I don't think that I would like it if Martin pulled the whole "hidden prince comes from hiding/obscurity to save his kingdom" thing, especially since it would be (5th book spoilers)
the second time it happens in the story.

Five bucks says that other one Aegon is a fake.

But, you're probably right. It would be more like Martin to surprise us with an "unsurprise" really.

[Dienekes]

Not only not executing Davos, but recognizing his loyalty, intelligence, and perseverence and then promoting him to a position of power and actually listening to him.

That, if nothing else, puts him head and shoulders above a lot of others.

He also listens to Mel, whose brilliant ideas of burning down all the opposed churches fractured his men's loyalty even further, and causing the death of several respectable and useful knights and lords. Right before he was going to war with his much more popular brother.

He makes some good decisions, he makes some bad decisions. I definitely don't see him as stupid, but I really wouldn't think of him as one of the smartest of folks.


Five bucks says that other one Aegon is a fake.

Agreed.

[hamlet]

He also listens to Mel, whose brilliant ideas of burning down all the opposed churches fractured his men's loyalty even further, and causing the death of several respectable and useful knights and lords. Right before he was going to war with his much more popular brother.

He makes some good decisions, he makes some bad decisions. I definitely don't see him as stupid, but I really wouldn't think of him as one of the smartest of folks.



Didn't say he was one of the smartest, merely smarter than many who seem to think advisors are there to plump their ego and be yes men.

And let's face it, though Stannis is hard headed in the extreme and doesn't always listen, when he does listen, especially to the ones who aren't out just to improve their own position, things tend to turn out well. He's learning. I can actually see an arc for him forming where he learns to become at least some of what originally made Robert greater, i.e., temper the iron to steel, bend and flex before breaking, but still retain the strong core rather than being meleable gold.

[Axolotl]

The problem is, then, what are your alternative theories? Based on what?

I mean, yeah, I have my reservations about it, but I think it's the likliest explanation.Well what would most please me is that it's all null because Jon's dead.

I mean R+L=J has alot of merit I just think that him suddenly being the trueborn heir of the rightful king stuff is far more cliche than I've come to expect from Matin.



Huh? Stannis? How do you figure? I mean he isn't stupid but I haven't seen anything to indicate he was exceptionally smart. Stubborn as all hell, sure. Overly confrontational even to his allies, definitely. Unfeeling and demanding, without a shadow of a doubt. Unable to really relate to or inspire his men, of course. But smartest lord in Westeros? Not that I've seen.Because of the original five kings involved in the war of five kings he's the only one who isn't dead. Unlike Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, Tywin, Balon, Robb, Joffrey, Renly and countless others he's managed to avoid assasination despite being one of the weakest militarily, he's the only major player from the start who's still in the game. Also while brutally unpleasant to be around he has by far the most loyal (and to a degree most compotent) advisors, what's more he actually listens to them once in a while. While yes he doesn't have many supporter those he does have are loyal to him, even if divided amongstthemselves) he has no Varys, Littlefinger or Freys to betray him.

Perhaps smart wasn't the right word but of all the lords and kings and other warlords in the series Stannis stands out to me as the one I'd least want to oppose because he's shown that ultimately he's willing to do whatever it takes to win. There's a reason that Tywin insists that Stannis is the biggest threat even when Robb is smashing his armies. Renly should have known that, and before you ask yes I realise that underestimating his brother and still thinking of him as an awkward, miserable child was the point of Renly. But it still makes him fairly stupid, at leastin comparison to his opponents.

[Goosefeather]

Another big strike against it is the whole "just got murdered thing", and since one of the more foreshadowed ways of his survival is that he wargs into ghost for the rest of ever, he's not really in a place to inherit.

Alternatively,

Melisandre revives him, a demonstrated ability of red priests, possibly even leading into whole the Azor Ahai thing, 'reborn among smoke and salt', or whatever the quote is. Though that could obviously equally well be Daenerys.

Also, for those who are interested and didn't already know, the UK Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winds-Winter-Book-Song-Fire/dp/0002247410/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328656373&sr=8-1) site has a blurb up for Winds of Winter, which contains some information not yet revealed at the end of Dance with Dragons, though I cannot attest to its reliability.

[Weezer]

Alternatively,

Melisandre revives him, a demonstrated ability of red priests, possibly even leading into whole the Azor Ahai thing, 'reborn among smoke and salt', or whatever the quote is. Though that could obviously equally well be Daenerys.

Also, for those who are interested and didn't already know, the UK Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winds-Winter-Book-Song-Fire/dp/0002247410/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328656373&sr=8-1) site has a blurb up for Winds of Winter, which contains some information not yet revealed at the end of Dance with Dragons, though I cannot attest to its reliability.

Aye, that is another possibility that I think is likely, as well as Jon not actually dying and getting saved at the last minute. Martin does love his fade to black, guess what that character you thought just got slaughtered, is actually alive thing.

[Selrahc]

There's a reason that Tywin insists that Stannis is the biggest threat even when Robb is smashing his armies.


Well... yes.
Robb is claiming only the North. Stannis is claiming the entire seven kingdoms. If Robb had won, he would have taken the North and the Riverlands into a new kingdom leaving the greater part of Westeros to the Southron crown. Bad, but not as bad for the Lannisters as if Stannis takes control. Which would basically mean death all around for the Lannister court.

[Axolotl]

Well... yes.
Robb is claiming only the North. Stannis is claiming the entire seven kingdoms. If Robb had won, he would have taken the North and the Riverlands into a new kingdom leaving the greater part of Westeros to the Southron crown. Bad, but not as bad for the Lannisters as if Stannis takes control. Which would basically mean death all around for the Lannister court.
This was before Robb declared himself King in the North but even after Robb lifted the seige at Riverrun and captured Jaime. Also Tywin knew that Robb wanted vengance, Robb winning would have meant Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin and everyone else in the Lannister family having their heads mounted on spikes.

[INDYSTAR188]

I want to add my 2 copper pieces here if you don't mind. First, I'm super excited for Season 2. Second, I think that Jamie is a legitimately interesting character. I believe that he realizes just how much of an evil, entitled, self absorbed, led by the nose, pawn in all of Cersei's plans he's been. It appears to me (I just received ADWD for my birthday so have not read any of that yet) that the loss of his hand, combined with the relief of losing his fathers scrutiny, and verifying that Cersei was cheating on him has led him to change and want to become a better person. Now, I'm not saying that he's going to be a saint, or that he should be forgiven for his abhorrent crimes (really a list to long to go into) but that he's now a much more interesting and relatable figure.

Robert was a terrible king. He was a much better soldier and fighter (obviously). He only cared about himself, drinking, and whoring for the most part. He didn't take an interest in his family, didn't even know his wife was cheating on him with her twin/one of his Kingsguard! It was a mistake to leave Pycelle, Littlefinger, and Varys in positions of power. They should have been replaced due to old allegiances. It's amazing to me that he could even stand to let the Kingdom fall that far in debt, alienated the Dornish, and let the Lannisters worm their way so close to him.

I'm not upset about the Brienne casting. I think with make up they could have the actress be pretty ugly. Although I think I remember that she was supposed to be really really ugly in the book, like no one wanted to marry her ugly.

I hope that GRRM is working hard on the 6th and 7th books and is able to bring this thing to a satisfying conclusion. I also hope that HBO doesn't change the main story (I don't mind tweeks here or there) and I don't mind different focuses but I hope they stay as close to the real RAW story as I would.

[Weezer]

I'm not upset about the Brienne casting. I think with make up they could have the actress have a kind of humble, inner beauty that's waiting to come out but she's so self conscious. Although I think I remember that she was supposed to be really really ugly in the book, like no one wanted to marry her ugly.


That's actually what I'm afraid of, in Hollywood 'ugly' too often actually means just give the girl a makeover and some fashionable clothing and her inner beauty will shine forth as physical beauty. Ugh. Brienne is supposed to be ugly and there are reasons for it.

[Xondoure]

short @Brienne

The way Catelyn pities her when they meet ("Is there a more pitiable creature in this world than an ugly woman?" or something to that extent makes it pretty clear she's not just homely or something...

I personally think that quote says a lot more about Catelyn than it does about Brienne. Remember Sansa wasn't just born with her head in the clouds, it got put there by Cat doting over the child that she identified with the most. Not a huge fan of Catelyn. How could you tell?

I don't quite understand the hate Varys gets... Given (again) I don't know the fifth book but from what I know he might be ruthless about it but I totally buy him having the realms' best interest at heart which is why he supports Ned and Tyrion the way he does, they did the same for the most part
Yeah, he was ruthless and not everything he does was nice but still, I see him as possibly THE best counselors Robert had (not for him himself, because he was of no use to the realm but for the realm itself) Petyr was able but egoistic, Renly was... well, not that bad but not smart enough, Stannis is... Stannis, duh. And Pycelle even though he's not really a jerk is just way too old and useless. (Which is one of the few things Cersei saw right)
Or maybe I'm thinking about Varys as well as I do is because I compare him to his frigging replacement later... Qyburn. I liked him at the start but by now... oh my god. Nothig better than a good torturer... with a weird interest in anatomy.

I believe Varys believes he acts for the good of the realm. But so does everyone in this series. And yeah, read the fifth book. You'll learn a lot about the spider and his little web of birds.

Also, Robert was a terrible king. He was a poor person, for the most part, not evil but poor, but someone like him ruling a kingdom... yeah, I might even welcome his death as a blessing if there would have been a decent hire. But Cersei pretty much screwed that up by being unable to raise Joff either.

As for the heir issue... dunno. I can see Gendry taking it but I'm not willing to bet five bucks on that.
Robert was a truly great king in precisely one way: he was the lynchpin that kept the entire kingdom running. He almost literally was the kingdom's peace as now that the Targaryens were gone there was no reason for the seven kingdoms not to turn on each other but for the alliances spun around Robert when he took the throne. Alliances that would have held strong had Cersei not screwed things over royally.*

By the way, weird theory (as far as I know)

I kind of got it in my head that Jon is not really Ned's bastard but Lysanne's and Rhaegar's son. Opinions?

Fairly common theory. A little more light was shed on it in the 5th book that might disprove it but we have nothing conclusive one way or the other.

*pun half intended.

[INDYSTAR188]

I'm about 50/50 on who I think Jon Snow really is. I do know that I don't think Ned is the cheat on your brand new wife kinda guy though...

I personally think that Jon is the son of Ned's sister Lyanna and Rhaegar making him Daenery's brother and a heir to the throne.

[hamlet]

I'm about 50/50 on who I think Jon Snow really is. I do know that I don't think Ned is the cheat on your brand new wife kinda guy though...

I personally think that Jon is the son of Ned's sister Lyanna and Rhaegar making him Daenery's brother and a heir to the throne.

Actually, since Dany is the daughter of the previous king and Rheagar never inherited, I think the legitimate claim would lay with her rather than any presumed child of Rheagar's. He'd have a claim, but not as solid a one as hers.

And I don't think Jon's being R+L would be so cliche, at least not because it came out of the blue. There have been enough clues dropped over the course of the prior 4 books (with a monkey wrench thrown in book 5) that many MANY people made the inference all the way back in the first or second book. Is it a cliche if it's been forshadowed so strongly?

I think the big smash reveal will be Tyrion's parantage, actually. I have a sneaking suspicion that Tywin was not his father and that may have been at least some of the anger and hatred between them. And it would fit the "three heads of the dragon" theme fairly well, and it would, thematically and politically, be wise as it would unite significant portions of the kingdoms again, except Dorne probably.

Another possibility involves the Dornish Princess becoming one of the three heads in order to re-unite that part of the Seven Kingdoms with the rest. Dany for the central portions and West, and Jon for the North and River Lands.

Though, as others have said, I almost hope, quietly, that Jon is actually dead, or stuck in Ghost forever. It would be a tremendously cool subversion of a trite old cliche if that happened. But I don't think he's permanently dead, for a whole host of reasons, not least because a warg or wargish person is neaded to control one of the three dragons in the end. Jon has demonstrated that ability to some extent and I don't see Arya fitting, or Bran. Tyrion . . . maybe sorta kinda? Dragon dreams might be an expression of that latent ability.

As for Azor Ahai . . . who ever said it was just one person? Remember what we know about Valyrian language and prophecies: gender is non-specific as can be number indicators (not numbers, per se, but plurality indicators, I'm not a linguist and don't know the actual word here).

[Xondoure]

Actually, since Dany is the daughter of the previous king and Rheagar never inherited, I think the legitimate claim would lay with her rather than any presumed child of Rheagar's. He'd have a claim, but not as solid a one as hers.

And I don't think Jon's being R+L would be so cliche, at least not because it came out of the blue. There have been enough clues dropped over the course of the prior 4 books (with a monkey wrench thrown in book 5) that many MANY people made the inference all the way back in the first or second book. Is it a cliche if it's been forshadowed so strongly?

I think the big smash reveal will be Tyrion's parantage, actually. I have a sneaking suspicion that Tywin was not his father and that may have been at least some of the anger and hatred between them. And it would fit the "three heads of the dragon" theme fairly well, and it would, thematically and politically, be wise as it would unite significant portions of the kingdoms again, except Dorne probably.

Another possibility involves the Dornish Princess becoming one of the three heads in order to re-unite that part of the Seven Kingdoms with the rest. Dany for the central portions and West, and Jon for the North and River Lands.

Though, as others have said, I almost hope, quietly, that Jon is actually dead, or stuck in Ghost forever. It would be a tremendously cool subversion of a trite old cliche if that happened. But I don't think he's permanently dead, for a whole host of reasons, not least because a warg or wargish person is neaded to control one of the three dragons in the end. Jon has demonstrated that ability to some extent and I don't see Arya fitting, or Bran. Tyrion . . . maybe sorta kinda? Dragon dreams might be an expression of that latent ability.

As for Azor Ahai . . . who ever said it was just one person? Remember what we know about Valyrian language and prophecies: gender is non-specific as can be number indicators (not numbers, per se, but plurality indicators, I'm not a linguist and don't know the actual word here).


There is very strong evidence that Jon isn't dead that was bashed into our skull throughout ADWD.

[hamlet]

There is very strong evidence that Jon isn't dead that was bashed into our skull throughout ADWD.

Yeah, I know. I'm just kinda hopin' that maybe we get thrown a major curve and that he stays dead.

[Selrahc]

So does anyone have any favourite "What if?" scenarios for the Song of Ice and Fire series? As in "What would have happened if Ned Stark hadn't given Cersei a warning before informing Robert?" or "What if Tyrion went out the Moon Door?".

[INDYSTAR188]

What if Robb had married a Frey instead and we avoided the Red Wedding altogether?

[Xondoure]

Oy, Spoilerz, some people in the thread haven't read the books. (the poor souls)

[Cazaril]

Oy, Spoilerz, some people in the thread haven't read the books. (the poor souls)

The first thing I learned when I started reading the books was to avoid any discussions of them, anywhere. Because something was certain to end up getting spoiled.

[Kato]

I'm still not sure how you came to the conclusion that [Robert] was a good king, he hardly ruled, but instead whored, drank and hunted his way into an early grave while handing the realm over to schemers and sycophants. Not a good rein in my eyes.

Sorry, I forgot how well sarcasm works on the internet.

Uhm... I could note alot on the last posts but I won't. Instead... I'm getting closer to the end of book 4... (yes, I still care for the poor people like me who are behind)

Nyahahaha, Cersei. I hope they have your stpid head off and poor Margeary gets set free to turn Tommen into a decent king. Though I don't think that is likely to happen.

Also... quite shocked by the revelations in Dorne... well, I guess Danny knows where to land her army. IF WE EVER SEE HER AGAIN. Whole book without her... or Tyrion... Or Brann... meh. Whatever...

[hamlet]

I would almost say that books 1-3 have been out long enough to be past spoiler dates.

[Selrahc]

I would almost say that books 1-3 have been out long enough to be past spoiler dates.

That would be fine if this was a discussion thread for the books. This is however nominally about the TV series, which is still before the events of book 2. I think there will be quite a lot of people who have not read the books, or have only read the first one. Since this thread is not tagged with a spoiler warning, it would be considerate to avoid talking about events that haven't happened in the TV series yet.

[0Megabyte]

What if Robb had married a Frey instead and we avoided the Red Wedding altogether?

Meh... He's better off dead. These are Freys we're talking about, here.]

[INDYSTAR188]

Meh... He's better off dead. These are Freys we're talking about, here.]

I respect your opinion Sir but I have to disagree.

In the sense that it would be pretty crappy to be married to a chic you didn't want or like I agree with you 100%, especially since she was a Frey. BUT he had a real chance of staying 'King of the North'. I wish he would have just set up shop at Moat Cailin and secured his own kingdom. He could then have arranged a trade off of Jamie for the girls and solved it that way. When I read the Red Wedding scene in the book I said "NO WAY", put the book down, walked away for about 15 minutes, came back re-read it and then moved on. That happens to me with this story about two or three times per book.

[Kato]

I respect your opinion Sir but I have to disagree.

In the sense that it would be pretty crappy to be married to a chic you didn't want or like I agree with you 100%, especially since she was a Frey. BUT he had a real chance of staying 'King of the North'. I wish he would have just set up shop at Moat Cailin and secured his own kingdom. He could then have arranged a trade off of Jamie for the girls and solved it that way. When I read the Red Wedding scene in the book I said "NO WAY", put the book down, walked away for about 15 minutes, came back re-read it and then moved on. That happens to me with this story about two or three times per book.


Yeah, that scene really shocked me as well. I thought Cately was having a nightmare or something but that was... ridiculous. Heck, how did they trust the Fres like that and have their whole amry celebrating and getting drunk? ARGH! :smallmad:
Like with Drogo's death or Ned's death or... ah, whatever.

[Dienekes]

Ehh I've always thought:
Even if Robb married a Frey Tywin and Roose would have come up with some other method to kill him, maybe making allies with the Karstarks to pull it off. The Red Wedding was just neat because it was fairly safe for both of them and the Frey's took all of the blame. Even if he wed the Frey, Winterfell was still destroyed, Cat thought her children were murdered and would free Jaime setting up the alliance between Roose and Tywin. And those two are particularly dangerous connivers.

[0Megabyte]

My response to the above!

I was being pithy. I think my hatred of the Freys has reached a point of utter loathing at every single thing they do and say.

Rhaegar Frey?! WTF?! Robb turned into a werewolf, during the wedding? Every single action any Frey takes in any ASoIaF book?! *raaaaaaaaaage*

More seriously, of course I know all you're saying. But these are the people who made me cheer for the dude pulling one of the most horrific stunts out of human folklore, and this time being all for it. You can forgive a bit of hyperbole, can't you?

[INDYSTAR188]

My response to the above!

I was being pithy. I think my hatred of the Freys has reached a point of utter loathing at every single thing they do and say. More seriously, of course I know all you're saying. But these are the people who made me cheer for the dude pulling one of the most horrific stunts out of human folklore, and this time being all for it. You can forgive a bit of hyperbole, can't you?

Could you please expand on this? Specifically, the human folklore part. I of course forgive the hyperbole, this whole discussion is a set of what if's and why'd that happen. I'm just glad to be able to talk to someone about it because my wife is about 1/3 of the way through Storm of Swords and hasn't hit the Red Wedding yet.

[Weezer]

Could you please expand on this? Specifically, the human folklore part. I of course forgive the hyperbole, this whole discussion is a set of what if's and why'd that happen. I'm just glad to be able to talk to someone about it because my wife is about 1/3 of the way through Storm of Swords and hasn't hit the Red Wedding yet.

Dance with Dragons Spoilers

He's referring to the instance where Wyman Manderly bakes a bunch of Freys into pies and feeds them to some other Freys, the Boltons and eats some himself.

[INDYSTAR188]

Dance with Dragons Spoilers

He's referring to the instance where Wyman Manderly bakes a bunch of Freys into pies and feeds them to some other Freys, the Boltons and eats some himself.

Man, the spoiler's right there like a self destruct button just BEGGING me to push it! But, I just started Dance W Dragons and am on Jon's first POV chapter.

[hamlet]

Man, the spoiler's right there like a self destruct button just BEGGING me to push it! But, I just started Dance W Dragons and am on Jon's first POV chapter.

You know you want to do it.

Go ahead, push the button . . .

[Dienekes]

Man, the spoiler's right there like a self destruct button just BEGGING me to push it! But, I just started Dance W Dragons and am on Jon's first POV chapter.

Dont! That particular spoiler is about 500x more awesome when you figure it out yourself over the course of the book

[Weezer]

Dont! That particular spoiler is about 500x more awesome when you figure it out yourself over the course of the book

This. It's not a spoiler that's immediately obvious even when you read it, and the moment that what happened slowly dawns on you is a simultaneously awesome and horrifying one.

[Cazaril]

This. It's not a spoiler that's immediately obvious even when you read it, and the moment that what happened slowly dawns on you is a simultaneously awesome and horrifying one.

Someone spoiled it for me before I read the 5th book. I was pretty miffed. :smallannoyed:

On the other hand, I managed to get to the Red Wedding without it getting spoiled, which made it so much more effective than it would otherwise have been.

By the way, is anyone else familiar with Inn at the Crossroads (http://www.innatthecrossroads.com/)? It's an awesome blog where two women from Boston attempt to cook every dish mentioned in the books (with some notable exceptions). And they post pictures and recipes and such. They made an interesting point early on, saying that the food descriptions in the books often foreshadow events to come, based on how awesome or vile the food sounds.

For example, at the Red Wedding they eat such delicacies as jellied calve's brains and thin leek soup, and Hizdahr zo Loraq attempts to serve Dany honeyed locusts before the unfortunate incident in Book 5.

[Eldan]

Honeyed locusts are pretty delicious, though.

[hamlet]

By the way, is anyone else familiar with Inn at the Crossroads (http://www.innatthecrossroads.com/)? It's an awesome blog where two women from Boston attempt to cook every dish mentioned in the books (with some notable exceptions). And they post pictures and recipes and such. They made an interesting point early on, saying that the food descriptions in the books often foreshadow events to come, based on how awesome or vile the food sounds.


Very familiar with it. And if I could, I'd beg one of them to marry me! Anybody who loves food like that must be a good person.

[Artemis97]

I'll second loving Inn at the Crossroads. They taught me to roast a chicken! Which is delicious on its own without the honey sauce. Still can't get it to reduce properly...

Anyways!

For everyone who was worrying the actress playing Brienne might be too pretty for the role, there are now photos (http://geeks.thedailywh.at/2012/02/09/game-of-thrones-season-2-photos-of-the-day/) of her and the other characters. I think they did a really good job. I also like their pick for Davos. He's not exactly how I pictured him, but this fellow's got grizzled sea captain/smuggler/frazzled advisor written all over him.

[hamlet]

For everyone who was worrying the actress playing Brienne might be too pretty for the role, there are now photos (http://geeks.thedailywh.at/2012/02/09/game-of-thrones-season-2-photos-of-the-day/) of her and the other characters. I think they did a really good job.

She looks like I imagined her, except that her armor's the wrong freakin' color.

The actress is still devastatingly lovely, though.

[Artemis97]

Oh you're right! Where's the blue? And I was admiring how nice that armor was too.

Speaking of armor, did anyone else miss Renly's green enameled armor with the big stag helm? I was looking forward to seeing that on screen and was disappointed when it didn't come. Maybe it'll be in the tournement he has in this book/season?

[Seerow]

Davos looks older and more grizzled than I imagined. I think they got Brienne just right though. Fully in costume it's easy to see how people would mistake her for an ugly guy at first, and downright ugly even after.

[McStabbington]

That's actually what I'm afraid of, in Hollywood 'ugly' too often actually means just give the girl a makeover and some fashionable clothing and her inner beauty will shine forth as physical beauty. Ugh. Brienne is supposed to be ugly and there are reasons for it.

As a simple matter of supply and demand, exactly how many roles do you believe are out there for an ugly woman who stands at least 6'2" but is nonetheless a gifted actress? I mean, other than Brienne, exactly what roles do you believe such a woman would have a reasonable chance of getting?

Seriously guys. I will go toe-to-toe with anyone about Hollywood's ridiculous beauty standards, but this is not only looking a gift horse in the mouth, it's checking the horse's prostate from the front. This actress is by all accounts I've seen gifted and talented. She's also 6'3" and can dwarf Sean Bean, who isn't exactly a small dude. And I would hardly say that she's conventionally attractive, since she doesn't have cheekbones that could chip an arrowhead out of obsidian. She's lovely sure, but she departs heavily from the blonde bombshell model that typically rolls off Hollywood's meat assembly line. Further, we have already seen numerous characters that departed heavily from the way they were portrayed in the books (Ned Stark, Tyrion Lannister, Gregor Clegane) that nevertheless worked out just fine because the actors playing them did tour de force work with their roles.

I mean really guys, what exactly did you want? For her to hit herself in the face with a flail before she signed on? Let's cut her a bit of slack in the looks department and see whether she can bring the necessary pathos to the role.

[Eldan]

Tywin, too. In the books, he's bald.

[INDYSTAR188]

As a simple matter of supply and demand, exactly how many roles do you believe are out there for an ugly woman who stands at least 6'2" but is nonetheless a gifted actress? I mean, other than Brienne, exactly what roles do you believe such a woman would have a reasonable chance of getting?

Seriously guys. I will go toe-to-toe with anyone about Hollywood's ridiculous beauty standards, but this is not only looking a gift horse in the mouth, it's checking the horse's prostate from the front. This actress is by all accounts I've seen gifted and talented. She's also 6'3" and can dwarf Sean Bean, who isn't exactly a small dude. And I would hardly say that she's conventionally attractive, since she doesn't have cheekbones that could chip an arrowhead out of obsidian. She's lovely sure, but she departs heavily from the blonde bombshell model that typically rolls off Hollywood's meat assembly line. Further, we have already seen numerous characters that departed heavily from the way they were portrayed in the books (Ned Stark, Tyrion Lannister, Gregor Clegane) that nevertheless worked out just fine because the actors playing them did tour de force work with their roles.

I mean really guys, what exactly did you want? For her to hit herself in the face with a flail before she signed on? Let's cut her a bit of slack in the looks department and see whether she can bring the necessary pathos to the role.

I'd like her to wear blue armor. That's all I want, personally I think this lady will do a fine job. The picture of her I've seen (from the HBO website) in her makeup is perfect. She's not ugly, but she's not beautiful. I think the real thing people didn't like about her in the books was how she could stand up to her husband if she needed to in a world where women seem to be pretty well under represented.

[Seerow]

Was her blue armor really all that iconic? I honestly don't even remember a mention of her armor being blue, and if I weren't reading this thread never would have known the difference. In fact had her armor actually been blue I might have raised an eyebrow because it would look so out of place with the rest of the armor we've seen.

I mean come on, all of the costuming has been pretty different from what was in the books. If I recall, the Kingsguard didn't even have Whitecloaks. I'm pretty sure Jaime didn't get his Golden armor. etc.

[Weezer]

Was her blue armor really all that iconic? I honestly don't even remember a mention of her armor being blue, and if I weren't reading this thread never would have known the difference. In fact had her armor actually been blue I might have raised an eyebrow because it would look so out of place with the rest of the armor we've seen.

I mean come on, all of the costuming has been pretty different from what was in the books. If I recall, the Kingsguard didn't even have Whitecloaks. I'm pretty sure Jaime didn't get his Golden armor. etc.

Yeah, it seems like they've eliminated all enameling of armors from the costume designs, which is fine with me, I prefer the look of burnished steel for armor.

[Dienekes]

Was her blue armor really all that iconic? I honestly don't even remember a mention of her armor being blue, and if I weren't reading this thread never would have known the difference. In fact had her armor actually been blue I might have raised an eyebrow because it would look so out of place with the rest of the armor we've seen.

I mean come on, all of the costuming has been pretty different from what was in the books. If I recall, the Kingsguard didn't even have Whitecloaks. I'm pretty sure Jaime didn't get his Golden armor. etc.

White cloaks were dressed in white or light grey in the series. Also they apparently tried to get the gold armor but it really didn't look good on camera so it was scrapped. In any case I don't remember the blue armor, but she was associated with sapphires.

Also, to the one you quoted. Am I misremembering something cause I don't think Brienne ever had a husband.

[Seerow]

White cloaks were dressed in white or light grey in the series. Also they apparently tried to get the gold armor but it really didn't look good on camera so it was scrapped. In any case I don't remember the blue armor, but she was associated with sapphires.

Also, to the one you quoted. Am I misremembering something cause I don't think Brienne ever had a husband.

I think she had a fiance two or three times, but I don't believe she ever managed to seal the deal. Which is why she's still considered a maid.

[Kato]

I think she had a fiance two or three times, but I don't believe she ever managed to seal the deal. Which is why she's still considered a maid.

Yeah, she got three fiancees but all turned her down for one reason or another. And well... she is not only considered a maiden...


I won't complain too much about the make-up but my point is... she doesn't so much look ugly, she looks like a man. Not like some Bishonen but still just like a man. To me, at least.

[hamlet]

1. I'm not put off by the actress. I've seen her in a couple of things and I know she's talented. They did well enough with the makeup and such to give me the impression I need, and that's all that I want. She'll do a good job.

2. Yes, Brienne had blue armor, though it wasn't quite "iconic" if by that you mean it was a defining trait. Really, it was the very first thing mentioned about her during the tournament where she's introduced and then, ever after, she's known for being ugly, especially in Catlyn and Jamie's eyes, who are the major points of view we see her through.

It isn't a big thing, but it would have been nice to at least see some blue motif with her armor/clothing instead of just generic burnished steel. But then again, I have major complaints aimed at the art design and costuming departments for season 1 as it is, and season 2 is shaping up to be much the same in those regards.

[Xondoure]

Yeah that's the thing: we see her through Catelyn and Jaime's eyes. And both are rather superficial when it comes to appearances. She's ugly, but it isn't hard to imagine she's better looking than they described because they just don't like ugly people.

[hamlet]

Yeah that's the thing: we see her through Catelyn and Jaime's eyes. And both are rather superficial when it comes to appearances. She's ugly, but it isn't hard to imagine she's better looking than they described because they just don't like ugly people.

Not only that, and perhaps slightly ironically, there comes a point where Jamie finds himself attracted to Brienne, though how much of that is simply "been a while since I got some" and how much is genuine attraction.

He respects her and her ability with weapons, which is dramatically more than he gives to virtually everybody else around him. Even his father on some level. The last time he had such nice things to say, he had them to say about Ser Dayne (I think), the last morningstar who knighted him and about whom he cannot help but gush.

That, I think, says something interesting.

[Knaight]

2. Yes, Brienne had blue armor, though it wasn't quite "iconic" if by that you mean it was a defining trait. Really, it was the very first thing mentioned about her during the tournament where she's introduced and then, ever after, she's known for being ugly, especially in Catlyn and Jamie's eyes, who are the major points of view we see her through.


It's relevant within the context of the rainbow guard more than anything, but that can probably be handled fairly decently with cloth.


He respects her and her ability with weapons, which is dramatically more than he gives to virtually everybody else around him. Even his father on some level. The last time he had such nice things to say, he had them to say about Ser Dayne (I think), the last morningstar who knighted him and about whom he cannot help but gush.
He also uses Sandor Clegane as an example of good swordsmanship later. Given that Sandor managed to win a 3 on 2 fight while drunk, that seems pretty reasonable.

[Dienekes]

Yeah that's the thing: we see her through Catelyn and Jaime's eyes. And both are rather superficial when it comes to appearances. She's ugly, but it isn't hard to imagine she's better looking than they described because they just don't like ugly people.

Is Cat shown she doesn't like ugly people? I mean she trusts Tyrion (after he proved himself) and helped Brienne when she was in trouble, taking her under her wing.

Also everyone mentions how ugly Brienne is. Everyone. People who have never seen her before, folks who captured her, folks she was going to be on campaign with. Everyone.

As to the picture, it looks alright. I pictured her even uglier, but still it works fine.

[McStabbington]

Not only that, and perhaps slightly ironically, there comes a point where Jamie finds himself attracted to Brienne, though how much of that is simply "been a while since I got some" and how much is genuine attraction.

He respects her and her ability with weapons, which is dramatically more than he gives to virtually everybody else around him. Even his father on some level. The last time he had such nice things to say, he had them to say about Ser Dayne (I think), the last morningstar who knighted him and about whom he cannot help but gush.

That, I think, says something interesting.

I don't recall him having anything but respect for Ser Barristan the Bold either, although the only time we've seen Jaime interact with Barristan the Badass was when he took possession of the roll for the Kingsguard. He noted that Selmy had taken the time to finish listing his accomplishments as member of the Kingsguard before killing several redshirts and escaping King's Landing.

Still, any time you're in the company of Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy, you've got to be doing something right.

[hamlet]

I don't recall him having anything but respect for Ser Barristan the Bold either, although the only time we've seen Jaime interact with Barristan the Badass was when he took possession of the roll for the Kingsguard. He noted that Selmy had taken the time to finish listing his accomplishments as member of the Kingsguard before killing several redshirts and escaping King's Landing.

Still, any time you're in the company of Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy, you've got to be doing something right.

Actually, it should be noted that not only did Selmy "take the time to finish listing his accomplishments" in the White Book, but that said final accomplishments included the besting of several of the city guard sent to aprehend him. Unarmed. Unarmored.

Baddass.

[Knaight]

Actually, it should be noted that not only did Selmy "take the time to finish listing his accomplishments" in the White Book, but that said final accomplishments included the besting of several of the city guard sent to aprehend him. Unarmed. Unarmored.

Baddass.

Technically we don't know that he was unarmored - which doesn't detract from this being evidence that he is potentially very dangerous, and being counted as his peer is significant. There are a handful of people at his level - Jaime Lannister*, Sandor Clegane, maybe Garlan Tyrell, and a fair few long dead people.

*Prior to losing his hand.

[hamlet]

Technically we don't know that he was unarmored - which doesn't detract from this being evidence that he is potentially very dangerous, and being counted as his peer is significant. There are a handful of people at his level - Jaime Lannister*, Sandor Clegane, maybe Garlan Tyrell, and a fair few long dead people.

*Prior to losing his hand.

I.e., the badest of the badasses. And the fact that Jamie sees in Brienne a lot of what he sees in them is telling.

[McStabbington]

Technically we don't know that he was unarmored - which doesn't detract from this being evidence that he is potentially very dangerous, and being counted as his peer is significant. There are a handful of people at his level - Jaime Lannister*, Sandor Clegane, maybe Garlan Tyrell, and a fair few long dead people.

*Prior to losing his hand.

Most people would put Clegane a notch below Lannister. Still very dangerous and capable, but he can't do the absolutely staggering feats of skill that Jaime or Barristan could. Most people would, however, put Howland Reed on that list. He's been mentioned only in passing in the books, but apparently in the final fight with Arthur Dayne and the other loyal members of the Mad King's Kingsguard, only Ned Stark and Howland Reed survived the fight. As a result, Reed has taken on the reputation of being a very formidable warrior despite being really little.

[Knaight]

I.e., the badest of the badasses. And the fact that Jamie sees in Brienne a lot of what he sees in them is telling.

Yes, yes it is. I was just pointing out a small detail, where Barristan may have been armored but not armed when he single handedly took out a bunch of armed men.

[Knaight]

I.e., the badest of the badasses. And the fact that Jamie sees in Brienne a lot of what he sees in them is telling.

Yes, yes it is. I was just pointing out a small detail, where Barristan may have been armored but not armed when he single handedly took out a bunch of armed men. Other than that, we are very much on the same page - Barristan is someone that is not to be messed with.

On other notes, I now notice that I omitted Oberyn Martell from the list, though he should probably be on it.

[Xondoure]

Is Cat shown she doesn't like ugly people? I mean she trusts Tyrion (after he proved himself) and helped Brienne when she was in trouble, taking her under her wing.

Also everyone mentions how ugly Brienne is. Everyone. People who have never seen her before, folks who captured her, folks she was going to be on campaign with. Everyone.

As to the picture, it looks alright. I pictured her even uglier, but still it works fine.

Okay not that she dislikes ugly people, but that she is very judgmental about these things. Sansa got it somewhere. Also everyone talks about her being ugly because its gossip. The celebrity kind, but for the seven kingdoms. It's peer pressure on a national level to make fun of the unattractive noble. Does not mean she's troll ugly.

[Dienekes]

Okay not that she dislikes ugly people, but that she is very judgmental about these things. Sansa got it somewhere. Also everyone talks about her being ugly because its gossip. The celebrity kind, but for the seven kingdoms. It's peer pressure on a national level to make fun of the unattractive noble. Does not mean she's troll ugly.

That's not exactly fair (something that seems common with Cat haters), just because a child picks up a personality trait doesn't mean that one of their parents directly gave it to them. Spend 5 minutes with my brother and my parents if you don't believe that. Yes Cat shows pride at Sansa's beauty as about any mother would, but I don't remember her ever being judgmental about a characters ugliness. She feels pity for Brienne being ugly, but that's about it. On the whole Cat seems rather helpful no matter a persons physical appearance. Her major flaws as far as I've seen them is that she is not omniscient (I maintain that most of her decisions make perfect sense when viewed through the information she had available at the time), and that she gets a bit crazy when her children are endangered (which was the precursor to both the poor decisions that cannot be explained by the first flaw).

Also the peer pressure idea doesn't work since
Even folks who don't know who she is remark how ugly she is. The example that sticks in my mind being the Brave Companions.. And since I actually like that a fellow ugly person gets the limelight as a protagonist for once, I'll just keep picturing her as troll ugly.

[hamlet]

Yes, yes it is. I was just pointing out a small detail, where Barristan may have been armored but not armed when he single handedly took out a bunch of armed men. Other than that, we are very much on the same page - Barristan is someone that is not to be messed with.

On other notes, I now notice that I omitted Oberyn Martell from the list, though he should probably be on it.

As should Eddard when you get down to it. Dude survived a fight with the three greatest White Knights. It's hinted here and there that he was an exemplary soldier and commander during the war, but we never really see him draw that blade during his time in the series. He always struck me as someone very hesitant to pull the sword, but once it came out, he was very capable of putting you down with it. It's one of the things I didn't quite care for with the series that turned that particular scene into a sword fight when it shouldn't have been.

Dienekes: It's not so much that Catelyn told Sansa to dislike ugly people, but that by celebrating Sansa's beauty, and steaping the child in the teachings of stories where beauty is celebrated and unattractiveness is indicative of moral fault that Sansa just put two and two together even if that was not her mother's intent in the end.

And I don't think Cat dislikes ugly people, but I do think she's a superficial thinker. And that's not saying she only sees what people appear to be, but that she thinks on a surface level rather than the deeper level that others have demonstrated the ability to do.

She took her sister's letter early on at face value rather than taking time to sit back and truly examine it. She thought too much of her ability to understand what was going on there and so latched onto the wrong conclusions like a rabid terrier on a dead rat.

When she takes Tyrion at the Inn of the Crossroads, she made fabulously bad judgement. Astonishing stupidity one might actually say. All she had to do was say "I was on my way to visit my old and ailing father" and the situation would have vanished and the war might have been, if not averted, than delayed.

She gives her son bad advice about dealing with the Freys. Yes, Frey had a strong position, but essentially, her advice amounted to "bend over and take it cause I can't see another way out" rather than trying to assert the authority of one's own lordship and barter a better deal. There wasn't compromise there, it was blackmail, and Catlyn's advice was to just take it.

By the time the 2nd book comes around, she seems to have major trouble realizing that, though she might desperately want to cling to Robb, a king having his mother on hand and seemingly wielding such power over him is fatal.

Letting Jamie go unbeknownst to any was foolish. She could have conceivably worked a deal between Robb and Karstark to create the illusion of a breakout and promised Karstark Sansa as a marriage proposal to one of his sons should she ever return, or even herself. Not revenge that Karstark truly wanted, but certainly a strong consolation prize.



She never quite thinks things through once she thinks she's got a handle on things. She might have been a good wife, but she wasn't a terrific leader or advisor.

[Axolotl]

She took her sister's letter early on at face value rather than taking time to sit back and truly examine it. She thought too much of her ability to understand what was going on there and so latched onto the wrong conclusions like a rabid terrier on a dead rat.

When she takes Tyrion at the Inn of the Crossroads, she made fabulously bad judgement. Astonishing stupidity one might actually say. All she had to do was say "I was on my way to visit my old and ailing father" and the situation would have vanished and the war might have been, if not averted, than delayed.

She gives her son bad advice about dealing with the Freys. Yes, Frey had a strong position, but essentially, her advice amounted to "bend over and take it cause I can't see another way out" rather than trying to assert the authority of one's own lordship and barter a better deal. There wasn't compromise there, it was blackmail, and Catlyn's advice was to just take it.

By the time the 2nd book comes around, she seems to have major trouble realizing that, though she might desperately want to cling to Robb, a king having his mother on hand and seemingly wielding such power over him is fatal.

Letting Jamie go unbeknownst to any was foolish. She could have conceivably worked a deal between Robb and Karstark to create the illusion of a breakout and promised Karstark Sansa as a marriage proposal to one of his sons should she ever return, or even herself. Not revenge that Karstark truly wanted, but certainly a strong consolation prize.

Of these the only one I'd agree is bad is the last one,which was certainly a monumental mistake. The rest are fairly reasonable actions given what she knows at the time.

Personally I have to say I liked Catelyn because she's the only person in power who ever suggest that a war that kills hundreds of thousands of people over personal revenge and petty power jockeying is actually a bad idea. In fact the only other person who ever comes close to saying this is using it to make child sacrifice look good.

[McStabbington]

Agreed that Cat is hardly foolish or stupid. Really, I see her as Object Lesson #2 that allowing one's sentimentality to overrule one's judgment is a fatal error when playing for power in this world. Sansa would be Lesson #1, Robb Lesson #3, Cersei Lesson #4.

The cold and heartless thing about negotiation is that you always have to be willing to walk away from the table if the deal that you are presented is too poor. If you can't walk away from the table, it's almost a guarantee that any deal you get will be unworthy of the name. In this case, that principle still holds even if the consequence of walking away is that your daughters/sisters get raped and murdered. Being a king doesn't allow you to accept any deal or pay any price for family, at least in this world. Cat's problem in this situation is precisely her virtue in any other: she's a terrific and loving mother who will bear any sacrifice to protect those she loves. As a person, it's a commendable virtue. As an advisor to a king of Westeros, it's a fatal flaw.

[BRC]

And I don't think Cat dislikes ugly people, but I do think she's a superficial thinker. And that's not saying she only sees what people appear to be, but that she thinks on a surface level rather than the deeper level that others have demonstrated the ability to do.

She took her sister's letter early on at face value rather than taking time to sit back and truly examine it. She thought too much of her ability to understand what was going on there and so latched onto the wrong conclusions like a rabid terrier on a dead rat.

When she takes Tyrion at the Inn of the Crossroads, she made fabulously bad judgement. Astonishing stupidity one might actually say. All she had to do was say "I was on my way to visit my old and ailing father" and the situation would have vanished and the war might have been, if not averted, than delayed.

She gives her son bad advice about dealing with the Freys. Yes, Frey had a strong position, but essentially, her advice amounted to "bend over and take it cause I can't see another way out" rather than trying to assert the authority of one's own lordship and barter a better deal. There wasn't compromise there, it was blackmail, and Catlyn's advice was to just take it.

By the time the 2nd book comes around, she seems to have major trouble realizing that, though she might desperately want to cling to Robb, a king having his mother on hand and seemingly wielding such power over him is fatal.

Letting Jamie go unbeknownst to any was foolish. She could have conceivably worked a deal between Robb and Karstark to create the illusion of a breakout and promised Karstark Sansa as a marriage proposal to one of his sons should she ever return, or even herself. Not revenge that Karstark truly wanted, but certainly a strong consolation prize.



She never quite thinks things through once she thinks she's got a handle on things. She might have been a good wife, but she wasn't a terrific leader or advisor.

Taking Tyrion was stupid, but understandable considering that, at the time, she thought he had sent an assassin to kill her comatose son. She may not be a genius, but there is some leeway considering her emotional state.


Brokering a deal with the Freys wasn't that stupid. The original deal she got was actually pretty good, the Freys are very powerful, and they had both men and control of the crossing. Getting both those things in exchange for a marriage and taking a couple of Walder's kids off his hands was a cheap price. It was Robb's combination of Teenage Libido and Stark Honor that messed that up.

The thing she can't really be forgiven for is letting Jamie go. While Robb had Jamie, Sansa and Arya (Who she thought the Lannisters had) were both perfectly safe. In fact, they were probably safer in court then they would be with Robb. The Lannisters may be cruel schemers, but they are not the type to kill children (especially valuable bargaining chips) out of spite.
But she lets Jamie go, with one guard (A skilled one yes, but Jamie was skilled, and that didn't stop Robb from capturing him), and tells them to walk right into the Lion's den. In doing so, she's giving up one of her son's best bargaining chips and making three big assumptions.
1: That they will be able to reach King's Landing safely.
2: That Jamie (The Kingslayer) will keep an oath made under duress, rather than just having Brienne killed the .
3: That he will be able to convince the rest of his family to give up the girls.
4: That the girls (Valuable hostages), with one guard, will be able to cross war-torn Westeros safely and get back to her.

If any of those things go wrong, she's just given up her son's biggest bargaining chip for nothing. Even if everything goes perfectly, she's STILL given up her son's biggest bargaining chip, returned a skilled fighter and commander to the enemy ranks, AND undermined Robb's authority.

Arresting Tyrion in the heat of the moment I can forgive. Releasing Jamie was just stupid.

[hamlet]

I understand the taking of Tyrion, and I'd definately sympathize with it given her mental state at the time and the liklihood that I wouldn't have even thought of that much. However, I still argue that it was a MAJOR mistake for her. A fatal one, actually.

If she had not done that, or had done it less publicly and more subtlely, she could have avoided essentially becoming the spark that started the conflagration. Perhaps even learned some important evidence that pointed her in a better direction and changed the nature of the war. Hell, even gotten the Starks into bed with a lot of the other major houses when the figured out what was really going on and given them more latitude to move.

It was this one act, almost entirely, that restricted the posibilities of her House afterward.


As for the Frey thing, Frey's deal was extortionary. Yes, a deal needed to be struck, but it wasn't just that Robb marry a Frey, recall, but that Arya marry in as well, and essentially an almost permanent stitching together of the two families. It was Frey jumping way past his station to get in bed with a king and raise his family higher than it should.

He could have done better sealing his control over the crossing by proffering up either Bran or Rickon, or even Sansa or Arya once they got returned (if). He could have offered to bring up the two Walders as wards and even offered them lands of their own within the North, thus expanding Frey's geopolitical influence beyond his current standing. Perhaps even given him some measure of control over shipping in the region since that would be a powerful tool.

But as it is, that deal was a poison pill that shouldn't have been swallowed without at least some dealing back and forth. If Robb had gone in himself, or had Walder brought out or somebody worth dealing with rather than sending in his mother whose judgement was compromised, then he could have bartered something more advantageous to himself while still giving Frey what he really wanted, power and recognition and still maintained arm's length with him.

[Axolotl]

I understand the taking of Tyrion, and I'd definately sympathize with it given her mental state at the time and the liklihood that I wouldn't have even thought of that much. However, I still argue that it was a MAJOR mistake for her. A fatal one, actually.

If she had not done that, or had done it less publicly and more subtlely, she could have avoided essentially becoming the spark that started the conflagration. Perhaps even learned some important evidence that pointed her in a better direction and changed the nature of the war. Hell, even gotten the Starks into bed with a lot of the other major houses when the figured out what was really going on and given them more latitude to move.

It was this one act, almost entirely, that restricted the posibilities of her House afterward.What possilities? All grabbing Tyrion did was force Tywin to act sooner than he wanted too, not grabbing Tyrion just him more time to plan his transfer of power. Tywin not being fully ready is all that allowed Robb to do as well as he did.



As for the Frey thing, Frey's deal was extortionary. Yes, a deal needed to be struck, but it wasn't just that Robb marry a Frey, recall, but that Arya marry in as well, and essentially an almost permanent stitching together of the two families. It was Frey jumping way past his station to get in bed with a king and raise his family higher than it should.

He could have done better sealing his control over the crossing by proffering up either Bran or Rickon, or even Sansa or Arya once they got returned (if). He could have offered to bring up the two Walders as wards and even offered them lands of their own within the North, thus expanding Frey's geopolitical influence beyond his current standing. Perhaps even given him some measure of control over shipping in the region since that would be a powerful tool.

But as it is, that deal was a poison pill that shouldn't have been swallowed without at least some dealing back and forth. If Robb had gone in himself, or had Walder brought out or somebody worth dealing with rather than sending in his mother whose judgement was compromised, then he could have bartered something more advantageous to himself while still giving Frey what he really wanted, power and recognition and still maintained arm's length with him.If Robb had gone himself Walder would have been sending his head to Tywin before he'd had a chance to speak. Even if he didn't do that, Robb's a teenager from a house that knows about as much on politicing as it does on astrophysics, Walder would have run cirles around him. And what exactly was so bad about the deal they got? Yes Robb has to marry a Frey but the difference in standing between the two houses isn't that big, remeber Robb wasn't a king at this point, hell I don't think he was even technically a lord at that point. Yes Frey was trying to raise himself up, but that's the whole point of bargining.

[Dienekes]

Dienekes: It's not so much that Catelyn told Sansa to dislike ugly people, but that by celebrating Sansa's beauty, and steaping the child in the teachings of stories where beauty is celebrated and unattractiveness is indicative of moral fault that Sansa just put two and two together even if that was not her mother's intent in the end.

And I don't think Cat dislikes ugly people, but I do think she's a superficial thinker. And that's not saying she only sees what people appear to be, but that she thinks on a surface level rather than the deeper level that others have demonstrated the ability to do.

She took her sister's letter early on at face value rather than taking time to sit back and truly examine it. She thought too much of her ability to understand what was going on there and so latched onto the wrong conclusions like a rabid terrier on a dead rat.

When she takes Tyrion at the Inn of the Crossroads, she made fabulously bad judgement. Astonishing stupidity one might actually say. All she had to do was say "I was on my way to visit my old and ailing father" and the situation would have vanished and the war might have been, if not averted, than delayed.

She gives her son bad advice about dealing with the Freys. Yes, Frey had a strong position, but essentially, her advice amounted to "bend over and take it cause I can't see another way out" rather than trying to assert the authority of one's own lordship and barter a better deal. There wasn't compromise there, it was blackmail, and Catlyn's advice was to just take it.

By the time the 2nd book comes around, she seems to have major trouble realizing that, though she might desperately want to cling to Robb, a king having his mother on hand and seemingly wielding such power over him is fatal.

Letting Jamie go unbeknownst to any was foolish. She could have conceivably worked a deal between Robb and Karstark to create the illusion of a breakout and promised Karstark Sansa as a marriage proposal to one of his sons should she ever return, or even herself. Not revenge that Karstark truly wanted, but certainly a strong consolation prize.



She never quite thinks things through once she thinks she's got a handle on things. She might have been a good wife, but she wasn't a terrific leader or advisor.

Actually I think capturing Tyrion like that was phenomenally clever, against observing what her situation was. Oh agreed the end result was terrible but look at her circumstances:
1) Her sister tells her the Lannisters are murderers
2) Her best friend tells her that Tyrion specifically is involved
3) Tyrion notices her obviously trying to hide from him.

Noting these three points the most obvious conclusion is that Tyrion has the capability, ruthlessness, and family ties that if he wanted to he could have killed her, or warn Cersei that the Starks are onto her game. The best option is to take him prisoner for both her own protection and as a ransom to protect her husband. Now unfortunately this didn't work for a few reasons that she had no way of knowing. Mainly her sister was a nut and Petyr had become straight up evil.

If Robb attacked the Frey's, which is a particularly defend-able castle they would have been forced to stay there in siege for months, or loss a good portion of the army in a frontal assault. Tywin already had a larger more experienced army, this would have been suicide. Also it was noted, she attempted to make a deal which we never get to see, so we don't know how well it worked out. Then she delivered the deal to Robb who actually made the agreement. And it was unfortunately the right advice. They could not stand up to Frey and hope to win the war. Walder never struck me as an idiot, he likely realized and used this information. They do toy with the idea of sending in Robb, but that is quickly shot down by everyone because Frey would have captured him as a treat to Tywin. Sending in a general is also suitably stupid because if things go south he takes the general again weakening Robb's forces. Sending in Cat was a pretty good idea, she had the station that her words mattered, she was close to the king so her agreements would have carried weight. But being largely unimportant to the war effort she would not be worth taking for Tywin.

Cat actually tells Robb that she cannot control him, and he needs to make his own decisions. Also Robb uses her as a messenger for most of it. Mind you her potential negotiate was Renly who refused to even listen to her. Really her position was fine until the last point happened.

Yes the breakout of Jaime was the dumbest thing she could have done. And she did it literally right after she discovered her two sons were murdered and her home was destroyed. This is her major flaw, she acts stupidly when a tragedy befalls her family. When Bran falls from a window she is inconsolable for weeks and acts more harshly to Jon than she ever has before. When Bran and Rickon were presumed dead she released Jaime in an attempt to save her remaining children. When Robb dies, she murders a helpless mentally disabled Frey.

[Knaight]

Cat's problem in this situation is precisely her virtue in any other: she's a terrific and loving mother who will bear any sacrifice to protect those she loves.

More or less. Her attitude towards Jon Snow is not one of a decent parent, and really, "it should have been you" is a pretty damning statement given the context. "I want you nearly dead and this person alive" isn't something that should be said to people lightly, particularly when they haven't actually done anything wrong.

Regarding Cat's intellect.
Capturing Tyrion was a good idea, based on the information she had. However, the information she had was absolutely terrible. It fingered Tyrion as being involved when he was the one person who wasn't, it included a fundamentally inaccurate model of Lisa Arryn's personality, and it involved an understanding of politics that relied on the Lannisters having far less power than they actually had, and King Robert actually being able to keep them in check meaningfully. In short, it is one of many scenes that illustrates how bad information can screw everything up, which emphasizes how much power access to good information is throughout the setting.

[Flickerdart]

Hey, if we're talking about awesome swordsmen, you can't leave out Syrio Forel, who also took down a bunch of city guards unarmoured and unarmed.

[Seerow]

Hey, if we're talking about awesome swordsmen, you can't leave out Syrio Forel, who also took down a bunch of city guards unarmoured and unarmed.

But he wouldn't be included on Jaime's list, given Jaime never met the guy.


There's also the fact that while he held those guards off (plus a Knight of the Kingsguard) he did most likely die in the end.

[Knaight]

But he wouldn't be included on Jaime's list, given Jaime never met the guy.


There's also the fact that while he held those guards off (plus a Knight of the Kingsguard) he did most likely die in the end.

Given that he did this while unarmored and using a stick, that doesn't diminish his swordplay. Arthur Dayne died at the end, which doesn't change the fact that he and two other guys killed five guys out of seven who attacked them.

Of course, the odds of Jaime ever admitting that someone who isn't even a knight is a good swordsman look pretty bad (Sandor aside). Which is a shame, given that the
Iron Bank of Bravos has decided that the time came to intervene, and not acknowledging them as capable would be a mistake.

[Xondoure]

In regards to Cat:
No it was not a smart move to take Tyrion. With the information she had you could argue but the most important detail about the information she had was that she did not have enough information. Tyrion made her uncomfortable by calling her out and instead of playing it off like she should she turns it into a power gesture because she was feeling nostalgic about Riverrun and has always been far to sure of herself. She does not know how to negotiate, or read people and is arrogant enough to think she is playing the game well. The only difference between her and Cersei is that she is a good person. A very good one. Who understands what is at stake if war were to emerge. It is not however, her flaw, her flaw is pride, it is merely fueled by the desperation she feels having her daughters out of reach.

[Dienekes]

In regards to Cat:
No it was not a smart move to take Tyrion. With the information she had you could argue but the most important detail about the information she had was that she did not have enough information. Tyrion made her uncomfortable by calling her out and instead of playing it off like she should she turns it into a power gesture because she was feeling nostalgic about Riverrun and has always been far to sure of herself. She does not know how to negotiate, or read people and is arrogant enough to think she is playing the game well. The only difference between her and Cersei is that she is a good person. A very good one. Who understands what is at stake if war were to emerge. It is not however, her flaw, her flaw is pride, it is merely fueled by the desperation she feels having her daughters out of reach.

When you're sister and your best childhood friend tells you someone is evil while you're holding the knife that tried to murder your child you tend to believe them. Also she couldn't really go back to Kings Landing in case everything was as it seems. So in her mind she was stuck caught in a deception with a murderer who seems to have some vendetta against her family in a ploy to take over the crown. Her actions make sense in context.

She is also sent to negotiate with: Someone who is literally holding all the necessary keys to allow her son to win or lose the war. Someone who refuses to listen to the sense of an alliance at all.

She had enough sense to warn Robb not to send Theon to Greyjoy, which was arguably one of the most important and decisive decisions in the book, again Robb didn't listen. Honestly, for all of Cat's flaws as an adviser Robb would have been better off just listening to her. Had he not sent Theon to the Iron Islands Winterfell would still be standing. Had he actually married the Frey he would not have been betrayed at the Wedding.

No, of course she's not perfect and I will admit she is more confident than she has right to be. But I cannot see a decision that does not either make sense in her specific context or where is was dead right. Except of course when her children are endangered and killed. Then she acts like an idiot.

[hamlet]

More or less. Her attitude towards Jon Snow is not one of a decent parent, and really, "it should have been you" is a pretty damning statement given the context. "I want you nearly dead and this person alive" isn't something that should be said to people lightly, particularly when they haven't actually done anything wrong.



Her attitude towards Jon Snow is entirely understandable, and not the sign of a bad mother, but a good one, actually. Jon is not her son. He represents a potential, even likely threat to her own, actual children. Making sure he was pushed out was the way to keep her own children safe and ensure their future. This is not 21st century, not the same values.

Dienekes: Petyr is not Cat's best friend. She knows enough about him not to trust or like him. There were hard enough feellings between the two of them throughout the early years of her marriage to Eddard that she cut off communication with him. Why she trusted him is less to do with his "being her friend" and more to do with him telling her what he knew she wanted to hear and being a poor judge of character.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm probably not going to watch this show. Not because I don't have HBO really, but because after such seeing season one and thinking how wonderfully it was put together I don't know that I can stand seeing it tied to the back of a horse to be drug through the muck and shat upon.

(Curse you Maaartin!!!!)


Is Cat shown she doesn't like ugly people? I mean she trusts Tyrion (after he proved himself) and helped Brienne when she was in trouble, taking her under her wing.

Cat's first reaction the Brienne is one of immense pity because she is an ugly woman and women are supposed to be pretty. Because among her many many flaws Cat is utterly taken in by the period's sexist opinions. So being an ugly woman is worse then being a dwarf. That said...


Also everyone mentions how ugly Brienne is. Everyone. People who have never seen her before, folks who captured her, folks she was going to be on campaign with. Everyone.

As to the picture, it looks alright. I pictured her even uglier, but still it works fine.

...I've always felt that Martin completely overdid this trait. Maybe this is just me but I have not encountered many downright ugly women in real life. Not in terms of basic facial features anyways. Certainly nothing like the trolls some men turn into, but even men it seems attestable to age and gaining weight neither of which are Brienne's problem.

Maybe its the universal use of cosmetics or something but yeah. This (http://images.tvtome.com/tv/images/genie_images/story/2012_usa/g/GoT_s2/Brienne_600.jpg) is yeah not the overly perfect of most media but hardly put away the mirror before she break it either. And that's fine with me

[thorgrim29]

I'm probably not going to watch this show. Not because I don't have HBO really, but because after such seeing season one and thinking how wonderfully it was put together I don't know that I can stand seeing it tied to the back of a horse to be drug through the muck and shat upon.


What?

Also, I like the comparison between Cat and Cercei. Both are overly confident about their intelligence, are motivated primarily by their children, and make terrible decisions based on trusting a few people way too much and a few others not at all. Difference is, Cat is basically a good person sadly unfit for all the intrigue and politics that were forced on her, and Cercei is a manipulative, soulless evil whore from hell.

[hamlet]

What?

Also, I like the comparison between Cat and Cercei. Both are overly confident about their intelligence, are motivated primarily by their children, and make terrible decisions based on trusting a few people way too much and a few others not at all. Difference is, Cat is basically a good person sadly unfit for all the intrigue and politics that were forced on her, and Cercei is a manipulative, soulless evil whore from hell.

Agreed.

Though I'd qualify that, in the end, Cersei may have a genuinely decent motive at heart, the preservation of her children and family. Problem is, true to her idiom, she's equated her own personal power with the wellfare of her children.

She's a perfect puppet because even when they're throttling her, she cannot see the strings.

[Soras Teva Gee]

What?

You've read the books right?


Also, I like the comparison between Cat and Cercei. Both are overly confident about their intelligence, are motivated primarily by their children, and make terrible decisions based on trusting a few people way too much and a few others not at all. Difference is, Cat is basically a good person sadly unfit for all the intrigue and politics that were forced on her, and Cercei is a manipulative, soulless evil whore from hell.

They do have an interesting counterbalance.

Cat you kinda like but she makes absolutely the worst decisions. I think about the only thing she does right is negotiate with the Frey's. Heh-heh.

Cercei while much smarter (though seriously not that smart Cat is just really really dumb) is such evil bitch.

[Seerow]

You've read the books right?



Can't speak for him, but I have read the books, and I'd still like to know what you're on about with the whole "dragging the series through the mud" thing.

[Weezer]

Can't speak for him, but I have read the books, and I'd still like to know what you're on about with the whole "dragging the series through the mud" thing.

I'd like to second this, in my opinion the series increases in enjoyability up through A Storm of Swords and if anything it's the two recent books that are a decline from that peak.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well yeah but knowing where its all going eventually and after letting myself be hooked on the first season which fills you almost with a kind of hope I don't know that I can stand watching as it all progressively goes downhill. I'm too into the TV incarnations of the characters.

Let's face it from the moment Ned Stark lost his head ASoFaI became It Got Worse: The Series.

[thorgrim29]

Ah ok that's what you meant. I thought you were saying that for some reason series 2 was going to be horrible and you blamed GRRM, not that it's going to be horrible for the characters and that GRRM is an ******* (valid point BTW, tough from memory book 2 is fairly nice for Robb, Tyrion and Davos).

[hamlet]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually liked book 4 and found it on par with the first three. Just a different focus and exploring a few different themes.

Often, I wonder if much of the anger over it has to do with it not following various people's personal favorite story lines.

[Axolotl]

book 2 is fairly nice for Robb, Tyrion and Davos).Yeah but it's pretty bad for mostof the other characters, for example from what I remember Arya's storyline was her meeting a lineup of the most evil people in Westeros and most of the other characters are doing even worse. I always felt book 2 was the most depressing of the series.

[Weezer]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually liked book 4 and found it on par with the first three. Just a different focus and exploring a few different themes.

Often, I wonder if much of the anger over it has to do with it not following various people's personal favorite story lines.

I've always viewed it as a great example of the fantasy epic getting away from the author thing we've been seeing lately. The book was unfocused, rambling at times, didn't advance the overall plot and introduced an inordinate number of new side-plots that were left for later books to resolve. The fact that it got away from Martin is further demonstrated by the fact that he was foced to split the book into two due to length.

[McStabbington]

You've read the books right?



They do have an interesting counterbalance.

Cat you kinda like but she makes absolutely the worst decisions. I think about the only thing she does right is negotiate with the Frey's. Heh-heh.

Cercei while much smarter (though seriously not that smart Cat is just really really dumb) is such evil bitch.

I think you sell Cat a bit short here. The counterbalance is that Cat has good instincts, but her knowledge is very spotty. If the information that she learned as a young woman in Riverrun, or at least prior to becoming what is effectively Duchess of one of the Seven Kingdoms is still accurate, she usually does a pretty good job handling the situation. She knew the kind of man Frey was, so she handled him pretty deftly on the whole. The problem for her is in many ways the same as her husband: years at Winterfell seems to have dulled her knowledge of who the movers and shakers are, and what their game is. She hadn't known how years at court had taken their toll on Lysa or Baelish, so when she got information from them she didn't read it with their plans or mental states in mind.

By contrast, Cersei has a great deal of knowledge, but terrible instincts. Whenever she makes a decision, she usually knows exactly who she has to nudge, cajole or push to get it accomplished. The problem, of course, is that her paranoia, her blinders where her children are concerned and her utter inability to game out the long-term consequences of her actions, like with the Iron Bank or the new High Septon, make her the absolute worst combination: someone who's very talented accomplishing precisely what most destabilizes the country.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually liked book 4 and found it on par with the first three. Just a different focus and exploring a few different themes.

Often, I wonder if much of the anger over it has to do with it not following various people's personal favorite story lines.

Its not 1 and 2 but I definitely warmed to book 4 after awhile. Definitely better the the most recent, maybe a little less gleefully malicious then book 3. Really though book 5 is a mess, I kept thinking really Martin that's it, Jordan at least kept it together until his tenth and fessed up when he didn't and got back on track for one more book. You kept me waiting for how long for this?

I think the brightest spot in book 5 were the Jaime chapters honestly. Course that particular plotline keeps threatening to go down the privy too. And that phrasing and others are clearly what Martin means when he does pulls his old tricks too.

[Knaight]

By contrast, Cersei has a great deal of knowledge, but terrible instincts. Whenever she makes a decision, she usually knows exactly who she has to nudge, cajole or push to get it accomplished. The problem, of course, is that her paranoia, her blinders where her children are concerned and her utter inability to game out the long-term consequences of her actions, like with the Iron Bank or the new High Septon, make her the absolute worst combination: someone who's very talented accomplishing precisely what most destabilizes the country.
That is actually a very good point. However, I'd expand it further - she's very good at manipulating the system. What she isn't good at is not getting manipulated by the system. The new High Septon, the Iron Bank, both of these manipulated her to some extent, and as a result she drives the realm downward.


Her attitude towards Jon Snow is entirely understandable, and not the sign of a bad mother, but a good one, actually. Jon is not her son. He represents a potential, even likely threat to her own, actual children. Making sure he was pushed out was the way to keep her own children safe and ensure their future. This is not 21st century, not the same values.
Jon is not a credible threat, never was a credible threat, and is clearly willing to protect his half siblings. It is because of Jon that Arya isn't dead, for one thing. Moreover, Catelyn trusted Theon further than she trusted Jon, and between the two of them Jon is the trustworthy one. Though she does deserve credit in trusting Theon less than Robb did.

[hamlet]

Jon is not a credible threat, never was a credible threat, and is clearly willing to protect his half siblings. It is because of Jon that Arya isn't dead, for one thing. Moreover, Catelyn trusted Theon further than she trusted Jon, and between the two of them Jon is the trustworthy one. Though she does deserve credit in trusting Theon less than Robb did.

Bastard sons are threats, even if he's pleasant with the true born children. You know about the whole Blackfyre rebellions, right?

Theon is not a threat because he has no possible claim at all on Winterfell or her own children's place. Jon has a lot of claim on it. Depending on who the mother is, possibly a very strong claim. All he needs to do is take it in his head that he wants "what's his" and he can cause all sorts of problems, like murdering Robb and the other sons and try to put himself in their place.

This was, historically, a major thing in our world, and it's just as significant in Westeros.

[Kato]

Bastard sons are threats, even if he's pleasant with the true born children. You know about the whole Blackfyre rebellions, right?

Theon is not a threat because he has no possible claim at all on Winterfell or her own children's place. Jon has a lot of claim on it. Depending on who the mother is, possibly a very strong claim. All he needs to do is take it in his head that he wants "what's his" and he can cause all sorts of problems, like murdering Robb and the other sons and try to put himself in their place.

This was, historically, a major thing in our world, and it's just as significant in Westeros.

That still implies Jon had ever shown any intent to do anything like that. My guess is Cat hates him solely for what he is: He reminds her off Ned cheating on her and she can't stand him around.

[hamlet]

That still implies Jon had ever shown any intent to do anything like that. My guess is Cat hates him solely for what he is: He reminds her off Ned cheating on her and she can't stand him around.

That's probably also a major part of it.

But remember, he doesn't have to show intent to be dangerous. Just look at Littlefinger for crying out loud.

[Weezer]

Bastard sons are threats, even if he's pleasant with the true born children. You know about the whole Blackfyre rebellions, right?

Theon is not a threat because he has no possible claim at all on Winterfell or her own children's place. Jon has a lot of claim on it. Depending on who the mother is, possibly a very strong claim. All he needs to do is take it in his head that he wants "what's his" and he can cause all sorts of problems, like murdering Robb and the other sons and try to put himself in their place.

This was, historically, a major thing in our world, and it's just as significant in Westeros.

The thing is that the Blackfyres were only a problem because they had been legitimized by the king, their father, on his deathbed. If they hadn't been legitimized, and if the legitimate heir had been more "kingly", then there would have been no Blackfyre rebellion. The thing about Robb is that he always seemed like a good successor to Ned and Jon was never a major threat to him because he never seemed like a better candidate, even if you take away the issues of legitimacy.

[Kato]

That's probably also a major part of it.

But remember, he doesn't have to show intent to be dangerous. Just look at Littlefinger for crying out loud.

Dunno... I'd say upbringing plays way too much a part in someone's personality. Someone raised by Ned Stark can be nothing but a good person. (That mostly even refers to Theon, but he... well, he wasn't always a Stark... but for a Greyjoy he could have been worse)

[Selrahc]

Though I'd qualify that, in the end, Cersei may have a genuinely decent motive at heart, the preservation of her children and family.

Cersei has more going on than that. If here entire character was based on protecting her family, then her repeated affairs make no sense at all. Sleeping with Jaime, Lancel and Taena are all highly dangerous activities, that would get her killed if discovered. And yet, they carry almost no gain at all.

Her motives are often just selfish and personal, then later rationalized as being for "the children". She's heavily narcissistic and paranoid, perhaps to an insane extent. She has a raging need to be dominant that expresses itself in almost everything she does, and is the main reason why she can't take alliances with people who are close to equals. She refuses to give up the Regency to Kevan due to her need for personal power, to prove herself as "Tywin come again".

It's not all about the children. Not even close. That is just a justification she gives herself.

[Kato]

Cersei has more going on than that. If here entire character was based on protecting her family, then her repeated affairs make no sense at all. Sleeping with Jaime, Lancel and Taena are all highly dangerous activities, that would get her killed if discovered. And yet, they carry almost no gain at all.

Her motives are often just selfish and personal, then later rationalized as being for "the children". She's heavily narcissistic and paranoid, perhaps to an insane extent. She has a raging need to be dominant that expresses itself in almost everything she does, and is the main reason why she can't take alliances with people who are close to equals. She refuses to give up the Regency to Kevan due to her need for personal power, to prove herself as "Tywin come again".

It's not all about the children. Not even close. That is just a justification she gives herself.


I'd like to disagree. Not about Cersei being selfish, she is so quite a lot but she doesn't do what you say for selfish reasons. To begin with: Whatever one might think, she surely loves/d Jaime and without her love for him there'd be no children...
We can't be too sure why she slept with lancel... either because she was missing Jaime and he was a replacement or to fet Robert killed for all the good she got out of that.
Did she ever sleep with Taena? Not really, I think... also, all her other affairs were mostly for the sake of manipulating people. I guess she does have sex for joy as well but most of it is just to further her goals which are kind of for the sake of her children.

[McStabbington]

The thing is that the Blackfyres were only a problem because they had been legitimized by the king, their father, on his deathbed. If they hadn't been legitimized, and if the legitimate heir had been more "kingly", then there would have been no Blackfyre rebellion. The thing about Robb is that he always seemed like a good successor to Ned and Jon was never a major threat to him because he never seemed like a better candidate, even if you take away the issues of legitimacy.

One need not necessarily be recognized by the king to become a threat. Suppose, for instance, that Ned died at about the time he did from a surprise and sudden heart attack instead of beheading. Suppose further that Robb is completely unprepared to rule, and as a result completely botches relations with several of his bannermen. How hard would it have been for, say, Roose Bolton or Rickard Karstark to start working to supplant Robb with Jon? The answer of course is that it would be significantly easier than supplanting Robb with Bran, and how easy it is depends greatly on whether Jon decides to go along with it.

The point is that while we know that Jon would never do something like that, and Cat wasn't exactly helping Ned and Robb keep Jon a nonthreat by saying such an ugly thing, it's hard to ignore just how much of a threat Jon could be to Robb, and just how much Ned was forcing Robb to gamble that Jon was as decent as he claimed to be. So while I blame her for not seeing that Jon wasn't the kind of guy who would split the North, it wasn't foolish for Cat to think that he had the power to do so if he chose.

[Knaight]

Bastard sons are threats, even if he's pleasant with the true born children. You know about the whole Blackfyre rebellions, right?

Theon is not a threat because he has no possible claim at all on Winterfell or her own children's place. Jon has a lot of claim on it. Depending on who the mother is, possibly a very strong claim. All he needs to do is take it in his head that he wants "what's his" and he can cause all sorts of problems, like murdering Robb and the other sons and try to put himself in their place.

This was, historically, a major thing in our world, and it's just as significant in Westeros.
Someone actively keeping the true born children alive is not a threat to them. Moreover, the Blackfyre rebellions required an actual heir that was basically the antithesis of everything a king was supposed to be, and Blackfyre pretenders that were near perfect models of what a king was supposed to be.

As for Theon not being a threat, that's absurd. His rescue of Bran put Bran at risk, he was so careless as to be a liability, and then there was the whole "storming Winterfell" thing.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The thing is that the Blackfyres were only a problem because they had been legitimized by the king, their father, on his deathbed. If they hadn't been legitimized, and if the legitimate heir had been more "kingly", then there would have been no Blackfyre rebellion. The thing about Robb is that he always seemed like a good successor to Ned and Jon was never a major threat to him because he never seemed like a better candidate, even if you take away the issues of legitimacy.

Its also worth mentioning that Ned never had the authority too do so, and Robb "should" have never have had any claim to it. While we can argue that Ned could have asked Robert and *might* said yes, I don't believe for a second that Ned would ask that and while I actually doubt Robert would agree. And Robb is still first born anyways. Its all way too low probability to justify her considering Jon a "threat" to her own children.

And given that she persists to the point of preferring some unknown Vale third cousin (or whatever) reveals her true motivation and that's amounts to fear and jealousy towards Jon's mother. She somehow fears in the depths of her soul that this woman has some hook left in Ned's heart that she could never dig out, that Ned was always just putting on a good show for her. And she cannot bear that. So she hates Jon because his mere existence she fears means her entire marriage was a lie.

Its that or she somehow instinctively sensed that Jon is a Targaryen anyways. Which we all know but really isn't obvious from the outside.

[Weezer]

And given that she persists to the point of preferring some unknown Vale third cousin (or whatever) reveals her true motivation and that's amounts to fear and jealousy towards Jon's mother. She somehow fears in the depths of her soul that this woman has some hook left in Ned's heart that she could never dig out, that Ned was always just putting on a good show for her. And she cannot bear that. So she hates Jon because his mere existence she fears means her entire marriage was a lie.


I think this is exactly her true reasoning and honestly, I can't blame her. Assuming R+L=J isn't true, what kind of woman would it have to have been to get Ned to forget his honor, even for a night. It would almost have to be the kind of woman who stays with you (in a metaphorical sense) even years later. This suspicion I'm sure was only exacerbated by Ned's refusal to say who it was or to even allow people to speculate.

[Goosefeather]

and then there was the whole "storming Winterfell" thing.

Details, details :smalltongue:

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think this is exactly her true reasoning and honestly, I can't blame her. Assuming R+L=J isn't true, what kind of woman would it have to have been to get Ned to forget his honor, even for a night. It would almost have to be the kind of woman who stays with you (in a metaphorical sense) even years later. This suspicion I'm sure was only exacerbated by Ned's refusal to say who it was or to even allow people to speculate.

Which raises another interesting parallel with Cercei as it happens now doesn't it.

Though R+L=J is still pretty likely. I kinda suspect it won't ever be confirmed though, just because we collectively guessed it. I still feel it too evident though to be outright Jossed, but hey we never know.

[Weezer]

Though R+L=J is still pretty likely. I kinda suspect it won't ever be confirmed though, just because we collectively guessed it. I still feel it too evident though to be outright Jossed, but hey we never know.

I kind of hope it ends up being false (Ashara Dayne that Ned visited after killing Arthur is my personal hope, mostly because having Jon be a Dayne would be awesome), mostly because I dislike hidden princes.

[Knaight]

I kind of hope it ends up being false (Ashara Dayne that Ned visited after killing Arthur is my personal hope, mostly because having Jon be a Dayne would be awesome), mostly because I dislike hidden princes.

I kind of hope it ends up being true, but that gets found out over Jon's permanently dead corpse. Though Ashara Dayne would also be nice.

[Selrahc]

Just over a week until the new series. Lets rescue the thread so we don't need a new one.

Something I was wondering about was the justice system in ASoIaF. Trial by Combat is a wonderfully dramatic system, but my god does it overshadow every other aspect of justice. So far I don't think we've seen any proper trials.

And trial by combat is a slightly odd way to run a justice system. What stops somebody like the Mountain from killing whoever he likes? Is the right to trial by combat suspended if guilt is obvious, or could somebody walk into the Throne Room, kill the king in front of the entire court with his own blade, then win trial by combat and walk away free? How does Westeros even function under that system? :smalleek: And why are the Lannisters the only ones who have pet monsters to win their trials?

[nyarlathotep]

If it's anything like trial by combat in real-life, trial by combat is only really allowed to function if both parties are of about equal social rank and choose to respect the results, but if there is someone who refuses to honor it and has military might such as the king then well you're boned.

[Flickerdart]

Just over a week until the new series. Lets rescue the thread so we don't need a new one.

Something I was wondering about was the justice system in ASoIaF. Trial by Combat is a wonderfully dramatic system, but my god does it overshadow every other aspect of justice. So far I don't think we've seen any proper trials.

And trial by combat is a slightly odd way to run a justice system. What stops somebody like the Mountain from killing whoever he likes? Is the right to trial by combat suspended if guilt is obvious, or could somebody walk into the Throne Room, kill the king in front of the entire court with his own blade, then win trial by combat and walk away free? How does Westeros even function under that system? :smalleek: And why are the Lannisters the only ones who have pet monsters to win their trials?
Because the Lannisters are the Team Rocket of Westeros, of course.

[BRC]

Just over a week until the new series. Lets rescue the thread so we don't need a new one.

Something I was wondering about was the justice system in ASoIaF. Trial by Combat is a wonderfully dramatic system, but my god does it overshadow every other aspect of justice. So far I don't think we've seen any proper trials.

And trial by combat is a slightly odd way to run a justice system. What stops somebody like the Mountain from killing whoever he likes? Is the right to trial by combat suspended if guilt is obvious, or could somebody walk into the Throne Room, kill the king in front of the entire court with his own blade, then win trial by combat and walk away free? How does Westeros even function under that system? :smalleek: And why are the Lannisters the only ones who have pet monsters to win their trials?
I think Trial by Combat is only allowed if there would be a Trial in the first place. In terms of obvious guilt/when the accused lacks sufficient social standing, the local noble can just proclaim a sentence.

Trial By Combat isn't how they run the justice system, it's just a tradition they use. A "Proper Trial" by Westeros standards is probably just standing in front of the reigning noble and arguing your case, with the noble in question serving as Judge, Jury, and for the Starks, Executioner. In most cases we've seen, the Judge has all but made their decision already, so the accused tries to escape their fate by appealing to Trial By Combat.

[Kato]

Yeah... trial ny combat is like *the gods think XY is worthy of living on" so it's like a divine judgement as opposed to a earthly... it makes absolutely no SENSE but it's still there because people believe it does.

btw, any Germans around? Thos weekend the German airing of GoT is happening yet I couldn't watch all of today's episodes... buuut from what I saw in the first episode it was actually... decent. I'm shocked!

[Hawkfrost000]

Just over a week until the new series. Lets rescue the thread so we don't need a new one.

Something I was wondering about was the justice system in ASoIaF. Trial by Combat is a wonderfully dramatic system, but my god does it overshadow every other aspect of justice. So far I don't think we've seen any proper trials.

And trial by combat is a slightly odd way to run a justice system. What stops somebody like the Mountain from killing whoever he likes? Is the right to trial by combat suspended if guilt is obvious, or could somebody walk into the Throne Room, kill the king in front of the entire court with his own blade, then win trial by combat and walk away free? How does Westeros even function under that system? :smalleek: And why are the Lannisters the only ones who have pet monsters to win their trials?

Trial by combat was reasonably common between nobles of relatively equal rank, it was believed that God would protect the righteous and innocent party and so he would win the combat.

I believe there was a passage before Tyrion's trial where the high septon is blessing the combatants and preying to the seven that they bring victory to the innocent party, or something like that.

DM

[Selrahc]

Trial by combat was reasonably common between nobles of relatively equal rank, it was believed that God would protect the righteous and innocent party and so he would win the combat.

I believe there was a passage before Tyrion's trial where the high septon is blessing the combatants and preying to the seven that they bring victory to the innocent party, or something like that.

Yes, I get the rationale. I'm more concerned with how it fits into a viable justice system. But as has been pointed out, it doesn't really look like Westeros actually has a viable justice system. Local lords throw out punishments however they like, and "justice" is just a concept measuring how fair and impartial the decisions taken by the local lord are. In such an anarchic system, I guess a custom like trial by combat isn't so warping.


For example, Randall Tarly is seen as a "Just" lord. He comes up with an ad-hoc punishment for gambling based entirely on his own whim and judgement.
Stannis is "Implacably Just" but punishes Davos again based mainly on whim.


I know a bit about the late medieval legal system in England, and things were quite a lot more complicated. I guess Westeros just doesn't have that much legal depth to it.

[hamlet]

Trial by combat is explicitely a privaledge of the nobility and the knighthood. Yer average schlub does not have that option, which is probably good since the combat would likely kill him anyway.

The remainder of the justice "system" is that if an infraction of the laws purportedly occurs, then the suspected perpetrator is brought before the local lord/administrator who determines guilt or innocence and administers punishment.

I don't think there's a "court system" so to speak, which is, in retrospect, a bit odd since at least medieval England was renowned for its secular courts and their relative fairness. I tend to look at it as, possibly, a clue to what might be going on in the grander scheme of things. A society at this point of development should have a court system. Either they never created one, which is a quesiton for why, it's gone which, again, makes us wonder why, or we are simply never shown it.

[BRC]

Trial by combat is explicitely a privaledge of the nobility and the knighthood. Yer average schlub does not have that option, which is probably good since the combat would likely kill him anyway.

The remainder of the justice "system" is that if an infraction of the laws purportedly occurs, then the suspected perpetrator is brought before the local lord/administrator who determines guilt or innocence and administers punishment.

I don't think there's a "court system" so to speak, which is, in retrospect, a bit odd since at least medieval England was renowned for its secular courts and their relative fairness. I tend to look at it as, possibly, a clue to what might be going on in the grander scheme of things. A society at this point of development should have a court system. Either they never created one, which is a quesiton for why, it's gone which, again, makes us wonder why, or we are simply never shown it.
Well, so far as I can tell, Westeros has never really been in a state of political stability. Culturally speaking most of Westeros is pretty similar, but the North, Dorne, and the Iron Islands all seem to have their own distinct cultural identities and Independent streaks. Plus you have all these scheming Noble houses and, for most of it's history, it's ruled by the Targeryans, a family of conquerors who refuse to interbreed with the locals. The result is going to be a power structure that is constantly under threat at every level.

A court system requires a codified system of Laws. A Codified system of Laws takes power away from the Monarch (Since a law that can be overwritten by the Monarch is little more than a standing order). What's more, a Complex legal system would require a bureaucracy, a bureaucracy which would produce a separate power structure from the Martial Nobility. Politically speaking, Westeros is still a collection of feudal landlords kept in check through a combination of kinship bonds and threats of Force. Intellectually and Culturally, it's very backwards.

Look at the Maesters, the closest thing Westeros has to a formal educational system. Maesters wear chains and are considered little more than a better class of Servant. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Cunning are all valued, but learning is not.

[TheFallenOne]

A court system requires a codified system of Laws. A Codified system of Laws takes power away from the Monarch (Since a law that can be overwritten by the Monarch is little more than a standing order).

I'd disagree here. Without laws sanctioned by the king, things will be handled by local custom. And anything not in the king's immediate view is outside his direct control. Legal code and courts help things being handled according to the wishes of the ruler(well, assuming he properly thought about the laws he decreed).
Your last sentence there looks very much wrong. Institutions and individuals have had the power to overturn the decisions of their predecessors for hundreds of years and laws weren't considered as 'little more than a standing order'. It just means there'll be a period of insecurity whenever rulership changes hand. We have quite a few historical documents where towns, abbeys of persons asked for a confirmation of previously granted privileges when this happened.

[INDYSTAR188]

Does it say anywhere that the smallfolk can't request a trial by combat? Or is that just obvious based on the class system of Westeros? Also, concerning ADWD:

I don't think there's any indication that Jon is dead necessarily. I wouldn't put it past Martin, but I have an inkling he has a lot more to do with the remaining story. I don't think he's Azor Ahai (at least I never had that suspicion). I think when we get back to Jon's story we'll find that Tormund and Jon's loyal brothers have thrown down his betrayers. I'm not sure to what end though...

[Knaight]

Does it say anywhere that the smallfolk can't request a trial by combat? Or is that just obvious based on the class system of Westeros?

It's a bad idea regardless. They are likely to be involved in two kinds of disputes, one of which (smallfolk opposed to each other) is ideally settled without bringing in the local lord at all. The other (smallfolk presenting their case against a lord) is liable to land them against a full fledged knight, which won't end well in most cases.

[Eldan]

I think I'd actually prefer if the prophecies were kept inconclusive. If Martin never actually came out and proclaimed someone Azor Ahai. So it could still be Dany or Jon or Stannis or anyone else.

[hamlet]

Well, so far as I can tell, Westeros has never really been in a state of political stability. Culturally speaking most of Westeros is pretty similar, but the North, Dorne, and the Iron Islands all seem to have their own distinct cultural identities and Independent streaks. Plus you have all these scheming Noble houses and, for most of it's history, it's ruled by the Targeryans, a family of conquerors who refuse to interbreed with the locals. The result is going to be a power structure that is constantly under threat at every level.

A court system requires a codified system of Laws. A Codified system of Laws takes power away from the Monarch (Since a law that can be overwritten by the Monarch is little more than a standing order). What's more, a Complex legal system would require a bureaucracy, a bureaucracy which would produce a separate power structure from the Martial Nobility. Politically speaking, Westeros is still a collection of feudal landlords kept in check through a combination of kinship bonds and threats of Force. Intellectually and Culturally, it's very backwards.

Look at the Maesters, the closest thing Westeros has to a formal educational system. Maesters wear chains and are considered little more than a better class of Servant. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Cunning are all valued, but learning is not.

There is a codified system of law. The Maesters study it and have a link in their chains devoted to it (I don't see which one at the moment, but I'm sure it was mentioned at some point). As a matter of fact, an organized legal structure can put power directly into the hands of the nobility and royalty. In this case, nobility has been granted the right of pit and gallows, i.e., in their lands, they are the governing authority of the law. That's the way it was done in England prior to the institution of a separated legal system. It was actually still a right in Scotland until the mid-18th century.

Also, the Targaryens were not rulers of Westeros for much of its history. A mere few hundred years throughout a history of some 8,000+ years (written history back that long concerning when Bran the Builder raised the Wall).

[TheFallenOne]

Trial by combat is explicitely a privaledge of the nobility and the knighthood. Yer average schlub does not have that option, which is probably good since the combat would likely kill him anyway.

There are though very competent non-knight fighters like Bronn(up to a certain point) and even the Hound. Plus, hundreds of decent warriors who just need a chance to demonstrate their skill to get their knighthood.

But yes, it's a thing of the nobility. I'm just wondering how this thing got started. It does look like a precaution against unfair trials. Maybe the nobility pushed for it to have a Panic Button if the king goes... well, Targaryen on them. On the other hand, the king himself may have started this to prevent the nobles from doing as they please in their domain.

Either one looks strange because inadvertadly those pushing for instituting Trial by Combat give up some of their own power. It makes most sense for the knights and lesser nobility - those with the right to TbC, but no or only a small domain of their own - but those lack the ability to force laws.

[The Glyphstone]

When it all boils down, Martin may have just chosen Trial By Combat as the primary justice element of Westeros because it's suitably grim and gritty, without giving much concern to all the other implications and side effects we've unearthed.

[TheFallenOne]

That's a reasonably likely answer, but also a boring one :smalltongue:

[Zocelot]

There was a Dunk and Egg story, where a trial by combat is requested. The request is granted, but in the form of a 7 on 7 combat. The reasoning being that the "obviously guilty" party would not be able to find six men to die for him. However, that is a few hundred years before the main events of ASOIAF.

[hamlet]

There was a Dunk and Egg story, where a trial by combat is requested. The request is granted, but in the form of a 7 on 7 combat. The reasoning being that the "obviously guilty" party would not be able to find six men to die for him. However, that is a few hundred years before the main events of ASOIAF.

Not quite right. That was a "Trial of Seven" and is designed such that it's a 7 vs. 7 fight in honor of the gods to call down their jjudgment upon the whole thing. Literally, in such an engagement, a guilty person would not be permitted, via divine fiat, to prevail.

That is, actually, one of the principles behind historic trial by combat. The invocation of God would prohibit the guilty party from winning.

[Seerow]

There was a Dunk and Egg story, where a trial by combat is requested. The request is granted, but in the form of a 7 on 7 combat. The reasoning being that the "obviously guilty" party would not be able to find six men to die for him. However, that is a few hundred years before the main events of ASOIAF.

I'm pretty sure Aemon was alive during Dunk and Egg, and the TEC was in that story as a young man as well. So it's less than 100 years ago. Not a few hundred.

[hamlet]

I'm pretty sure Aemon was alive during Dunk and Egg, and the TEC was in that story as a young man as well. So it's less than 100 years ago. Not a few hundred.

Aemon was alive. The Dunk and Egg stories are about 80 years prior to the main series. The year 208 AL (after landing) is when The Hedge Knight takes place.

[WitchSlayer]

Aww, I missed the discussion of the best combatants in Westeros, I was going to throw my lot in for Thoros and everything. Oh well.

Can't wait to see how Jaqen H'ghar is in Season 2.

[INDYSTAR188]

Do you guys think Jaqen H'ghar = Syrio Forel = the Kindly Man from ADWD?

[Elhann]

Can't wait to see how Jaqen H'ghar is in Season 2.

http://www.nocreoqueseasreal.pe/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Jaqen-HGhar.jpg

Like that.

Spoiler for INDYSTAR's post: I don't think he is Syrio or the Kindly Man, though. If I had to bet, I'd say he is in the Citadel, but it's been a while since I read A Feast of Crows, so I may be quite wrong.

[Weezer]

Do you guys think Jaqen H'ghar = Syrio Forel = the Kindly Man from ADWD?

I don't think so, for a number of reasons. Firstly, why would the Lannisters not kill Syrio, like they did for every single other Stark retainer who didn't have some form of familial connection? Also, Jaqen (or someone who has the same face/earring as his last seen visage) is shown to be in old town, replacing that Novice whose name I forget, at the same time that Arya is training with the kindly man. There are multiple Bravosi in the story, a whole city of them in fact, we don't need to make them all the same person...

EDIT: @^ You should probably put everything post-book one in spoilers...

[Goosefeather]

It's been a while since I read the books, so I'm very tempted to watch the whole of series one again before Sunday. Unfortunately I have like 3 essays and a load of revision to do as well :smallsigh:

Regarding Jaqen,
I think it's almost canon that he's the Alchemist, which pretty much rules out him being the Kindly Man. And the timing's too off for him to be Syrio. As Weezer said, there's plenty of Braavosi around, no need to assume they're all the same person. That's racist :smalltongue:

[INDYSTAR188]

I could be wrong here, and feel free to correct me if that's the case, but I believe that it was never stated whether Syrio was able to survive his encounter with Meryn Trant. I'm not saying that Syrio is every Bravosi, and I think Jaqen H'ghar is from Lorath anyway. I guess I just want to believe that Arya has someone in the world who actually cares about her. I guess it's probably most likely that Syrio died and Jaqen is in fact the same person at the Citadel. Also, I just want to say that I hate Ramsay Bolton with a fiery passion, probably more than any other character in the series.

[Weezer]

I could be wrong here, and feel free to correct me if that's the case, but I believe that it was never stated whether Syrio was able to survive his encounter with Meryn Trant. I'm not saying that Syrio is every Bravosi, and I think Jaqen H'ghar is from Lorath anyway. I guess I just want to believe that Arya has someone in the world who actually cares about her. I guess it's probably most likely that Syrio died and Jaqen is in fact the same person at the Citadel. Also, I just want to say that I hate Ramsay Bolton with a fiery passion, probably more than any other character in the series.

Yes, whatever Syrio's fate was, it did happen off screen, but he had just killed a bunch of lannister guardsmen and Trant (I'm almost certain that was the Kingsguard present) both survived without injuries (showing that Syrio didn't miraculously win) and isn't known for his mercy. All of this seems to indicate that Syrio is almost certainly dead.

I hate Ramsay (how could I not), but he isn't my most hated. He's a sociopath and while that doesn't make him less despicable I tend to find kick puppy, evil for evil's sake less hateful. I think Walder Frey is my most hated character, or maybe Theon (though the second was pre-ADWD, I may have changed my thoughts on him since)

[WitchSlayer]

Aww no super weird two colored hair? Oh well.

[Eldan]

WEll, a bit. He has sorta white and brown hair.\

That said:
He's an alchemist? What alchemist? I recently re-read the books and I don't remember any alchemist.

[Dienekes]

WEll, a bit. He has sorta white and brown hair.\

That said:
He's an alchemist? What alchemist? I recently re-read the books and I don't remember any alchemist.

Read Feast for Crows the prologue again. And then for good measure the last Sam chapter

[Goosefeather]

Read Feast for Crows the prologue again. And then for good measure the last Sam chapter

Or if you don't have time, here's a quick summary (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alchemist).

[Weezer]

WEll, a bit. He has sorta white and brown hair.\

That said:
He's an alchemist? What alchemist? I recently re-read the books and I don't remember any alchemist.

He's not actually an alchemist, he just calls himself that when talking to Pate, the now dead novice. He calls himself the alchemist because he is 'changing' the lead key into a gold dragon.

[Dr.Epic]

Seriously, does anyone know a site I can watch the episodes legally for free? I got to get into this series. I hear the show's awesome!:smalleek: I'd rather not buy the box set for season because it looks like it on goes for around $50

[TheFallenOne]

Seriously, does anyone know a site I can watch the episodes legally for free?

*shakes head*
Epic Fail, Dr. I ignored it the last time you asked because I figured such a question has to be trolling. But appearantly you're serious.

[nyarlathotep]

I think he is hoping for something like the Walking Dead's episodes being available on AMC's website for a limited period of time after airing for free, or the version of that they do for Dr. Who episodes on the BBC site. It's a real thing that the show's makers will do and include commercials to make revenue.

In Game of Thrones case though I'm pretty sure no such offer exists.

[Derthric]

Seriously, does anyone know a site I can watch the episodes legally for free? I got to get into this series. I hear the show's awesome!:smalleek: I'd rather not buy the box set for season because it looks like it on goes for around $50

Honestly your best bet is to find someone willing to share the dvds or on demand it from HBO for you. They do not offer streaming outside of their HBOGo service which is only available to subscribers.

[Flickerdart]

Seriously, does anyone know a site I can watch the episodes legally for free? I got to get into this series. I hear the show's awesome!:smalleek: I'd rather not buy the box set for season because it looks like it on goes for around $50
Not only can you not watch them for free, you can't even pay to watch them (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones) (warning: contains some swears).

[Closet_Skeleton]

Not only can you not watch them for free, you can't even pay to watch them (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones) (warning: contains some swears).

The season 1 DVDs are available on Amazon now.

So I'll probably buy them since I did torrent it illegally when it was on.

[TheSummoner]

So many changes made from the book... Most of them pretty minor granted, but still enough to irk me.

I think the two that bothered me the most were the scene at Dragonstone and the fact that everyone instantly knew and believed it when it got out that Jaime was the father of Cersei's children.

With Dragonstone, I really thought it should've been the very first scene... It should've shown WHY Stannis gave Mellisandre's religion a try... She should've taken the first drink of the poisoned wine before Cressen did (and she should've offered him a chance to back down like in the actual book)..> Most importantly, they should've atleast namedropped Cressen. I know the guy was a minor character who lasted all of one chapter, but he deserved to atleast be mentioned by name once.

And yeah... Kinda bothered me that everyone believed it when it got out instead of there being a degree of skepticism.

Edit: Oh, and the beginning of the brothel scene... That's exactly what I love coming out of my speakers when I'm watching the show with the volume cranked way up. I need to remember to put some headphones on next week.

[blackspeeker]

All I really took from the brotherly scene was "great ros is a madame now..."

[TheFallenOne]

Great start of the season.

I notice Slynt killed the bastard baby himself in the end. Well, makes sense, not enough time to introduce all minor characters. Pity Tyrion won't order Slynt to go overboard like Allar Deem though, will take some years until Slynt gets his comeuppance in the TV show...

And the camera angles made Grey Wind look really big. If they manage to make the direwolves really look, well, dire, I'll be quite happy

ditto on the brothel, though this isn't the first time this show had a sudden cut to loud female moaning, so I was prepared to tone down the volume :smallbiggrin:

[hamlet]

I'm putting the whole thing in spoilers because I'm too tired to filter out things seperately.


Agree that the Dragonstone scene should have happened first and that Cressen should have been at the very least name dropped. As it is, those who don't know what actually happened (via reading the novels) are probably wondering just who the hell that was and why they should care. They could have taken a couple of seconds out of yet another whorehouse scene to add a little depth to what was, originally, a very moving scene and terrifying scene. No problem with it being combined with a later scene for the sake of time, but a lot of important characterization was lost there.

I'm not sure I like the actor playing Stannis, yet. Doesn't seem quite right, but then again, too little screen time. He gets lost in the additional material that just ate up too much of the episode.

Which brings up, the additional material. I don't particularly care for much of it. Yeah, I had no real issue with showing the guard killing the bastards. That was something that had to be shown rather than told since it would get lost in the show (rather than the book which managed to reveal it after the fact in a way that truly horrified us).

The additional bit with Joffrey in the throne room I could have done entirely without. And I mean entirely. It added little or nothing, IMO, and just ate up way to much time.

Don't like the actor playing Crastor, but that's just because he doesn't look like I thought he does in my head. Do not at all like how Mormont acted immediately outside Crastor's hall. That is entirely out of character, and just downright stupid. At most, Jon earned a frown, not getting slammed against the wall and shouted at incoherently.

Yoren's still too pretty.

CGI Greywind was very nifty. I mean, obviously CGI, but not distractingly so like the dragons in the ultimate episode of the first season were. Dragons also seemed to improve somewhat.

Very much an introductory episode, and I don't think that they can afford to spend so much on an introductory episode when they're limited to ten episodes a season.

They continue to be hamfisted about things rather than subtle, but that's an artifact of TV genre as opposed to book genre.

[TheSummoner]

Agree that the Dragonstone scene should have happened first and that Cressen should have been at the very least name dropped. As it is, those who don't know what actually happened (via reading the novels) are probably wondering just who the hell that was and why they should care. They could have taken a couple of seconds out of yet another whorehouse scene to add a little depth to what was, originally, a very moving scene and terrifying scene. No problem with it being combined with a later scene for the sake of time, but a lot of important characterization was lost there.

And cutting out that scene also cut out an important character defining moment for Stannis. When he said that Cressen was too old and he didn't want him to kill himself in his service.

And we'll probably get this next episode, but Davos really should've gotten a proper introduction. One or two extra lines after the bit about how Stannis deals with thieves would've been enough. Just change that line slightly to

Stannis: "You of all people should've learned how I deal with thieves when I shortened your fingers."
*Some sort of shot that shows his hand in a subtle way. Maybe him putting it on the table while the focus is on his face*
Davos: *nods* "It was justice. No more than I had earned for years of smuggling."
Stannis: "And your knighthood was no less than you earned during the siege of Dragonstone. Every action must have it's consequences, onion knight. The good and the bad."

And toss something like that at the end. Then explain it in a bit more depth later on.

Finally, I thought they were a bit too "Mellisandre is evil" with the way she was handled. She was never a good character but she was always a bit more ambiguous than that. Atleast until she started giving birth to shadow baby assassins anyways. I mean, in the book she tried to give Cressen a chance to back down. She knew the wine was poisoned. She told him he didn't have to drink it. He didn't listen, but I give her points for trying.

She was too short too. Wasn't her height supposed to be one of those things about her that made her seem unnatural. Intimidating. I seem to remember it being commented on quite a few times in the books.


Don't like the actor playing Crastor, but that's just because he doesn't look like I thought he does in my head. Do not at all like how Mormont acted immediately outside Crastor's hall. That is entirely out of character, and just downright stupid. At most, Jon earned a frown, not getting slammed against the wall and shouted at incoherently.

Ditto. I Imagined Craster much... Hairier I suppose. Wild mane of long white tangled hair or something like that. And more physically imposing. Old, yes, but large and strong. And Mormont's reaction was a major WTF moment for me.

[Selrahc]

And toss something like that at the end. Then explain it in a bit more depth later on.

Tag it on loosely and casually, and you wreck the emotional impact of a possible reveal.

Put it as the centrepoint of a more personal scene between Stannis and Davos, and it has the potential to be a pretty shocking and moving scene. Do it like you say, and all you've gained is a bit of extra character definition in the opening episode.

[PseudoPserious]

Littlefinger: Knowledge is power.
Cersei: No, power is power.

Sound familiar? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)

PP

[Kato]

I feel the need for a show and a seperate books thread for the discussion... it really gets meddlesome with the spoilers and stuff :smallfrown:

(Soon... soon I will finally be able to read A Dance with Dragons and I know all the spoilers, muahahaha)

[Weezer]

I feel the need for a show and a seperate books thread for the discussion... it really gets meddlesome with the spoilers and stuff :smallfrown:

(Soon... soon I will finally be able to read A Dance with Dragons and I know all the spoilers, muahahaha)

Maybe have people label what books/how far in the show is contained in the spoiler tags could help.

Also, don't be so sure that ASwD will catch you all the way up, Martin has read some chapters from Winds of Winter (which I've carefully avoided), that apparently reveal some plot points.

[Zejety]

Littlefinger: Knowledge is power.
Cersei: No, power is power.
Littlefinger's phrase already reminded me of that that strip. Cersei's answer was glorious.

Also: Not much Tyrion in this episode but quality > quantity :P

Also²: It's awesome how well they establish Stannis' character with just one letter.

[Cristo Meyers]

Something that's been bugging me about the events of the very end of the episode:

I can't remember: was it Joffrey or Cersei that ordered the child-slaughter? It's been the better part of a year since I finished all four books...I thought it was Cersei, but now that I think about it...

[hamlet]

Something that's been bugging me about the events of the very end of the episode:

I can't remember: was it Joffrey or Cersei that ordered the child-slaughter? It's been the better part of a year since I finished all four books...I thought it was Cersei, but now that I think about it...


In the books, it was Cersei. And it was actually a man called Alar Deem who did the killing of the infant. Slynt talked him up to Tyrion later on as a potential replacement as head of the Watch. Deem "slipped" overboard on the journey north to The Wall.

[BRC]

Can I just say one big problem I had with the episode.

It was too Dark.

No, I don't mean thematically. I mean visually. It seemed like every other scene took place in a dark room, at night, lit by a single candle. The result was lots of conversations that seemed to be taking place between two noses sticking out of the shadows.

[Kato]

Maybe have people label what books/how far in the show is contained in the spoiler tags could help.

Well, that would be a must have but some people are sloppy and stuff... I don't know if the Mods would mind but I think it would be really helpful especially for people only watching the show..


Also, don't be so sure that ASwD will catch you all the way up, Martin has read some chapters from Winds of Winter (which I've carefully avoided), that apparently reveal some plot points.

Course you, Martin!



edit:
So, got around to watch the second season pilot.

Well, nothing much to say... Cersei had some nice extras with Petyr (revenge is a dish served with poison...) and Joffrey... (Too late for fixing that mistake, Cersei)
Otherwise I guess things were neat...
Melisandre is pretty hot... and I totally forgot they removed all of Stannis appearances from the first season o.O And I was wondering why I didn't recognize him.

[Seerow]

In case you didn't know, Episode 2 went up early on HBO Go (if it wasn't intentional... whoops. I got a chance to watch it at least!).

[Selrahc]

and I totally forgot they removed all of Stannis appearances from the first season o.O And I was wondering why I didn't recognize him.

When was Stannis in Game of Thrones? If I recall correctly, he spent that entire book out on Dragonstone, without being in the presence of any of the PoV characters. And while the TV show isn't as married to keeping the PoV perspectives and could theoretically have jumped us over for an early introduction to Stannis, it makes a lot more sense that they didn't.

[Kato]

When was Stannis in Game of Thrones? If I recall correctly, he spent that entire book out on Dragonstone, without being in the presence of any of the PoV characters. And while the TV show isn't as married to keeping the PoV perspectives and could theoretically have jumped us over for an early introduction to Stannis, it makes a lot more sense that they didn't.

Wasn't he on the small council or something? And just left over the course of the book? I could be wrong but I thought he was there for a while and left over the course of the story...

[Seerow]

Wasn't he on the small council or something? And just left over the course of the book? I could be wrong but I thought he was there for a while and left over the course of the story...

I'm pretty sure in the book he left before Ned got there, in a hissy fit because Robert didn't pick him for Hand.

[hamlet]

I'm pretty sure in the book he left before Ned got there, in a hissy fit because Robert didn't pick him for Hand.

He was on the Council (Master of Ships perhaps?) but didn't leave in a hissy fit, but because he and Jon Arryn both knew/suspected the truth about Cersei's children and Stannis, seeing the writing on the wall, got his backside out of danger since he knew that he would be killed if they knew that he knew and he's not the type to remain silent about it.

[Weezer]

Wasn't he on the small council or something? And just left over the course of the book? I could be wrong but I thought he was there for a while and left over the course of the story...

He was on the small council but he left before Ned arrived. As for his reasoning for leaving, both what Seerow and Hamlet said is right. Those two different explainations were put forth by two different characters in the book, I think Stannis's actual reasoning is a combination of the two, both seem in line with his character.

[Zejety]

Season 2, Episode 2
Bron becomes commander of the Gold Cloaks? That's a pretty cool change!
Or did he get this title in the books as well and passed it on later?

[Seerow]

Season 2, Episode 2
Bron becomes commander of the Gold Cloaks? That's a pretty cool change!

Agreed.


This was more or less my stream of consciousness as watching episode 2:

Wow Yoren's facedown with the Goldcloak was perfect.

lmao "I don't think Varys likes fish pie" "How do you know?" "I can always tell". Apparently gaydar is a thing in westeros.

Tyrion is being far less subtle than in the books. Kind of sad.

Sam: "I wish I grew up on a farm" and Ghost Sighting! He seems bigger than Grey Wind.


Hrm no subtitles for Dothraki on this episode, that's mildly annoying. Oh and I don't remember that guy getting killed before, seems they are diverging further and further from the books on this storyline.

Hey they left out Theon making the girl give him a blow job to shut her mouth. (At least they got her talking so much she's really annoying right)

Littlefinger, voyer extraordinare. I'll bet he likes fish pie. Wait the lady crying isn't the mother of the dead baby? Why is she so upset about it? I'd be pissed if I were littlefinger too.


Ahaha finally a great Tyrion scene. "I am not questioning your honor, I am denying its existence", I'm pretty sure that line was changed but I like this version. Dinklage of course is awesome. Oh wait Bronn is the commander of the watch now? Conservation of characters I guess.

I dont know who this Hot Pie actor is, but he's hilarious. d'aww Gendry "Asking me questions is bad luck.".... okay Gendry is hilarious too. I think that Arya's scenes are going to be my favorite this season just from her supporting cast here. (Forgot to mention it earlier but Jacquen was pretty cool earlier too.)

I'm king of torn on the Asha intro. On one hand it was amusing. On the other hand, just like with the Cressen suicide scene, it leaves out the little redeeming qualities. In the book Asha gives hints to Theon that she's not who she says she is, he just doesn't catch them because he's been away too long. Here she just comes off as vindictive.

SS is here, and that old pirate is amazing. I continue to be amazed by the casting. Also him agreeing to come just so he could **** Cercei makes me laugh a lot.

Speaking of Cercei, now that we're in a scene with her and Tyrion, I've been liking her a lot this season. She seems more human, more real. In the books she always seemed so confident, and that confidence made her seem insane given her position. Here we see someone in a precarious place who is well aware of it, and I'm loving it.


Aww Mel just reminded me that Davos's son is probably one of the ones who dies on Blackwater. She told him death by fire is a pure death to comfort him ahead of time (she probably saw it in the flames or whatever). That's so... sad. Wait did they just combine Stannis's wife and daughter into the same person? Eugh

And wow that ending scene was a surprise. I figured something like that had to be coming when Gilly didn't say what happened to the boys but... wow cliffhanger much? Are they going to step up Craster's death a whole season here or what? I'm not sure I see where this is going.

[hamlet]

Given all that, I'm not sure I want to see the 2nd episode anymore.:smallmad:

[Zejety]

And wow that ending scene was a surprise. I figured something like that had to be coming when Gilly didn't say what happened to the boys but... wow cliffhanger much? Are they going to step up Craster's death a whole season here or what? I'm not sure I see where this is going.

still s2e2:
The first cliffhanger to leave me hanging (having read the books).


I do't know what to think about the Melisande/Stannis pairing... I always liked Stannis' professional "we need her powers" attitude.

[Seerow]

still s2e2:
The first cliffhanger to leave me hanging (having read the books).


I do't know what to think about the Melisande/Stannis pairing... I always liked Stannis' professional "we need her powers" attitude.

Mel and Stannis sleeping together is cannon, if obscure. Think of how the shadow babies are formed

[Zejety]

Mel and Stannis sleeping together is cannon, if obscure. Think of how the shadow babies are formed
s2e2
True, but I did not expect him to be that... passionate. But I guess not even Stannis can keep his serious attitude over a good piece of fish pie.

Is fish pie a meme now?

[hamlet]

s2e2
True, but I did not expect him to be that... passionate. But I guess not even Stannis can keep his serious attitude over a good piece of fish pie.

Is fish pie a meme now?

Dear Lord I hope not.

[Seerow]

Dear Lord I hope not.

I would be disappointed if it isn't.

[TheFallenOne]

s2e2
True, but I did not expect him to be that... passionate. But I guess not even Stannis can keep his serious attitude over a good piece of fish pie.

Is fish pie a meme now?

s2e2
Yeah, I kind of hoped he'd say "No kissing" and then put her on the table.

Do I misremember or did Theon go further with Asha than in the book? Watching how he fondled her was quite :smalleek: knowing they're siblings.

I wonder why they changed the dynamic between Cersei and Joffrey so much. Are they trying to make her more sympathetic?
In any case, Joffrey ordering the death of RObert's bastards didn't make that much sense. Unlike Cersei he doesn't know how important they are to prove his incestuous parentage. Plus, where did her learn about them? Varys? Littlefinger?

[Zejety]

I forgot (s2e2, A Clash of Kings):

I'm king of torn on the Asha intro. On one hand it was amusing. On the other hand, just like with the Cressen suicide scene, it leaves out the little redeeming qualities. In the book Asha gives hints to Theon that she's not who she says she is, he just doesn't catch them because he's been away too long. Here she just comes off as vindictive.
In contrast to this, I think I will be able to sympathize more with Theon later. The Balon:Theon scene was tough.

[Flickerdart]

Balon is still kind of weird though.

Rob is cool with me being king and will help me raid King's Landing? Nah, let's backstab him instead, because that way we'll have no allies, just like every other king wannabe. That way it's fair.

[Selrahc]

Balon is still kind of weird though.

Rob is cool with me being king and will help me raid King's Landing? Nah, let's backstab him instead, because that way we'll have no allies, just like every other king wannabe. That way it's fair.



Much better explained in the book. So is the peace treaty proposed to Joffrey, which was pretty anaemic in the show, and seemed to entirely disregard the Riverlands.
For a start, in neither case is Balon going to be raiding Kings Landing. Geographically the Iron Islands are off the West Coast of Westeros, while Kings Landing is on the East. What Robb is asking Balon to do is raid Lannisport and Casterly Rock, devastating the Lannister homelands. What Balon points out is that this is precisely what they tried to do during the Greyjoy rebellion, and for their trouble their fleets were smashed, Balons elder sons were killed and he was forced to swear allegiance to Robert. The Lannisters west coast is well defended and has never been taken. Meanwhile the Stark west coast, while a much poorer prize, is ripe for the taking. The Stark armies are fighting Lannisters, the Starks have no real fleet. And the West coasts of the North are the places where the Ironborn plied their trade most heavily for centuries.

The explanation is much longer in the book. In the show, they've mainly just emphasized wounded pride.

[TheFallenOne]

OK, this just gave me a big laugh :smallbiggrin:

http://i.imgur.com/zcWDG.jpg

It even makes more sense than what happened in the show. Littlefinger was way less subtle there than I'd expect.