[3.P] Consolidating classes

[Helldog]

I think that having so much classes that essentially do the same, but in slightly different ways is stupid. Why is there a Fighter, a Swashbuckler, a Knight, and a Samurai, when it's all the same exact thing (a warrior), just with a different style of fighting or different fluff?
That's why I'm gestalting base classes from PF and 3.5.
I'm trying to keep the finished classes roughly tier 3 (can be strong tier 3, but I don't particularly care about bringing every class up to equal full casters), give the classes some power, versatility and/or options, and keep the themes of the gestalted together classes similar.

What I have for now:
Fighter + Swashbuckler + Knight + Samurai - they all differ in mechanics, but all are essentially the same thing, a warrior. An adventuring fighter should have all those abilities, but only those that you invest your resources into (like feats, items, attributes, etc.) will matter in level appropriate encounters, so it won't make the new Fighter overpowered in any way.
What does this new Fighter have? d12, good Fort and Will saves, 4 skill-points per level and a decent skill list, class features that support most of the classical fighter concepts (finesse fighter, tank, BFC, sword'n'board, TWF, smart fighter), fighter bonus feats to further customize your build/concept.
That should be enough of power and versatility to make this new Fighter tier 3, I think.

Monk + Ninja - it is argued that PF Rogue is tier 3 and that Ninja is even better than Rogue, so...
This class is what a Ninja should really be. I didn't think about it too much, it just felt right to combine those two. He retains the feel of an oriental mystical skillmonkey martial artist. :smalltongue:

Paladin + Knight + Marshal + Healer - PF Paladin, who's arguably tier 4 already, plus two tier 5 and one another tier 4. What can it do? Well, this new Paladin can, on top of his normal Paladin abilities, also inspire his allies thanks to Marshals features and heal his allies thanks to Healers features, and also tank reliably thanks to Knights features. He's all about leading the charge. He can stand his own on the front line and assist his allies quite competently.

Ranger + Barbarian + Dragon Shaman + Scout - 4 tier 4 classes. All with the nature-y theme. Ranger and Scout provide tracking, stealth, scouting, mobility and decent precision damage. Barbarian provides some raw combat power. Dragon Shaman gives some random abilities to help your allies a little and heal them. Overall not bad, I think.

Rogue + Factotum - a tier 3 class plus an arguably tier 3 class. They both are the same thing, a skillmonkey. I think I don't have to explain why I combined them.

Totemist + Soulborn - I have zero knowledge of Incarnum classes and rules, so please tell me if this is okay. Totemist, from what I read, is tier 4 and Soulborn is tier 5. Could they, together, go up to tier 3? Would it make it a too overpowered tier 3 class if I would combine Totemist, Soulborn AND Incarnate as a single Incarnum class?

What other base classes would you suggest to combine? The goal of this houseruling is to get rid of classes below tier 3 and make every base class powerful and versatile enough to be a fun and viable option in any game.

[Manateee]

I'm trying to think of a possible class combination that would meaningfully outperform its strongest component, but I'm drawing a blank.
Factotums don't count. <_<

[Helldog]

I'm trying to think of a possible class combination that would meaningfully outperform its strongest component, but I'm drawing a blank.
Factotums don't count. <_<
I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean?
Why don't Factotums count?

[Godskook]

Which classes are from PF and which are from 3.5?

[Helldog]

Which classes are from PF and which are from 3.5?
The italicized classes are 3.5. The rest is PF.

[Manateee]

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean?
Why don't Factotums count?
A Fighter/Knight/Monk/Swashbuckler/Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian/Marshal/Soulknife doesn't have any abilities stronger than the strongest ability contained by the component classes. It's still doing all the things a Knight does or that a Monk does; it's not shapeshifting or teleporting like the Psychic Warrior; it's not granting its allies actions like the Warblade; it's not going ethereal and screaming things into submission like the Totemist. It's probably getting some bigger numbers than usual, but it's not becoming meaningfully more capable.

Not to mention that its class features wouldn't jibe together at all (different specializations in combat styles and stat prioritizations mean that a character in the supergestalt is still picking certain classes' features to use - your Samurai//Swashbuckler isn't going to be combining the Swashbuckler fighting style with the Samurai's Bastard Sword, for example).

This approach to balancing the classes doesn't make sense in terms of instilling balance between archetypes, and it doesn't really make sense in joining the archetypes (why is Soulborn on Totemist? How does the Knight make conceptual sense on top of the Swashbuckler?)

--

Factotums are a bit of an exception because they can multiply a character's ability by outright and limitlessly breaking the action economy. But they're an edge case, rather than the rule.

[gkathellar]

Fighter + Swashbuckler + Knight + Samurai

Still probably levels out at high Tier 4. CW Samurai ... hissssss.


Monk + Ninja - it is argued that PF Rogue is tier 3 and that Ninja is even better than Rogue, so...

PF Rogue is still T4, but it's much better T4, and Ninja probably slips into the highest Tier 4 or lowest Tier 3 bracket around.

As long as you get to keep Qinggong (gods above that term is misapplied), this should do okay.


Paladin + Knight + Marshal + Healer

Since you're already using Knight above, why not throw in the PF Cavalier instead? It fits. (Also, get Gate off of the Healer list unless you still want level 17 to jump you to Tier 2.)


Ranger + Barbarian + Dragon Shaman + Scout

That's about Tier 3, indeed.


Rogue + Factotum

Well, it's a stronger Factotum.


Totemist + Soulborn - I have zero knowledge of Incarnum classes and rules, so please tell me if this is okay. Totemist, from what I read, is tier 4 and Soulborn is tier 5. Could they, together, go up to tier 3? Would it make it a too overpowered tier 3 class if I would combine Totemist, Soulborn AND Incarnate as a single Incarnum class?

Oh no. Totemist is Tier 3 easy all on its own. So is Incarnate. And really, why are you considering classes you're wholly unfamiliar with?

[Helldog]

A Fighter/Knight/Monk/Swashbuckler/Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian/Marshal/Soulknife doesn't have any abilities stronger than the strongest ability contained by the component classes. It's still doing all the things a Knight does or that a Monk does; it's not shapeshifting or teleporting like the Psychic Warrior; it's not granting its allies actions like the Warblade; it's not going ethereal and screaming things into submission like the Totemist. It's probably getting some bigger numbers than usual, but it's not becoming meaningfully more capable.
But it has more options.


Not to mention that its class features wouldn't jibe together at all (different specializations in combat styles and stat prioritizations mean that a character in the supergestalt is still picking certain classes' features to use - your Samurai//Swashbuckler isn't going to be combining the Swashbuckler fighting style with the Samurai's Bastard Sword, for example).
With this class, no matter what concept you pick, you will have features that support it, and also some features in case that your primary features aren't useful in a situation.


why is Soulborn on Totemist?
Why not? They're both incarnum classes.


How does the Knight make conceptual sense on top of the Swashbuckler?)
They're both a warrior. Just because you will fight in a heavy armor doesn't mean that you don't learn how to fight without it, just in case. And it's not really that complicated that you absolutely have to choose one or the other.


Still probably levels out at high Tier 4. CW Samurai ... hissssss.
Well, I am considering some additional houserules for the finished classes.
What, do you think, does this lack to become tier 3?


PF Rogue is still T4, but it's much better T4, and Ninja probably slips into the highest Tier 4 or lowest Tier 3 bracket around.

As long as you get to keep Qinggong (gods above that term is misapplied), this should do okay.
So... tier 3? If not, what would you suggest or what does it lack?


Since you're already using Knight above, why not throw in the PF Cavalier instead? It fits. (Also, get Gate off of the Healer list unless you still want level 17 to jump you to Tier 2.)
Well, I wanted the Paladin to also have tanking features.
It doesn't really matter if a class becomes tier 2 on 17th level thanks to just one spell, but I'll consider removing it.


Oh no. Totemist is Tier 3 easy all on its own. So is Incarnate. And really, why are you considering classes you're wholly unfamiliar with?
Hm. Maybe I misremembered what I read.
I'm considering them, because although I don't know the rules, the classes still kinda look nice to me. I just don't get Incarnum at first read and don;t have time for more deep reading.

[Coidzor]

Rogue + Factotum - a tier 3 class plus an arguably tier 3 class. They both are the same thing, a skillmonkey. I think I don't have to explain why I combined them.

Eh? :smallconfused: Factotum is just fine on its own as a skillmonkey. Not exactly hurting in terms of fighting capability either. Sneak attack is nice though, I suppose, but the 2 more skill points a level are a very minor thing.


Totemist + Soulborn - I have zero knowledge of Incarnum classes and rules, so please tell me if this is okay. Totemist, from what I read, is tier 4 and Soulborn is tier 5. Could they, together, go up to tier 3? Would it make it a too overpowered tier 3 class if I would combine Totemist, Soulborn AND Incarnate as a single Incarnum class?

Don't know where you'd heard that. Totemist is generally thought to be T3 from what I'd heard. Soulborn does have some nice melds, and the desire for more essentia is something that plagues all meldshapers.

Having access to all soulmelds might be a bit out of hand, but then again, there's only so many you can have shaped and/or bound, irrespective of class, so it's mostly a matter of increasing the breadth of possible options rather than active options. The end result would likely play mostly like either a totemist or an incarnate with maybe one or two soulmelds from another class to bolster aspect or another. The only potentially problematic thing would be getting heart and soul and totem chakras in one chassis before epic levels and from what I recall, even that's not too out of hand.

Especially in comparison to some of the other combinations. Of course, they have the capability to change what they are from day to day which can be pretty fun, making them like a more piece-meal binder.

[gkathellar]

Why not? They're both incarnum classes.

Very different fluff.

Incarnum-users call their soulmelds into being by focusing them through personally-held ideals. Soulborn and Incarnates use alignment ideals for this purpose.

Totemists are somewhat different, using the idealized images of various monsters.


Well, I am considering some additional houserules for the finished classes.
What, do you think, does this lack to become tier 3?

If you're already willing to go beyond the simple approach of gestalting pre-established classes, you may as well head over to Homebrew and find a fighter fix that you like. I'm putting in my vote for Grod_the_Giant's.


So... tier 3? If not, what would you suggest or what does it lack?

T3-4. The difference between those two is less important than it sometimes seems.


Hm. Maybe I misremembered what I read.
I'm considering them, because although I don't know the rules, the classes still kinda look nice to me. I just don't get Incarnum at first read and don;t have time for more deep reading.

A lot of people find incarnum confusing, but it's actually pretty straightforward at its heart:

Basically, you get to choose a number of long-duration buffs each day (Soulmelds).
Of the buffs you choose you get to choose a smaller number that occupy magic item slots for additional benefits (Chakra Binds) — but not all magic item slots are immediately available, and you have to unlock them by progressing incarnum classes.
Finally, your class (and potentially your race and feats) gives you a resource called Essentia Points. You can temporarily invest Essentia points in soulmelds (even chakra binds) to make those soulmelds more powerful, and you can shuffle the allocation of essentia points from soulmeld to soulmeld every round. You can also invest essentia in certain class features and feats.

[Helldog]

Eh? Factotum is just fine on its own as a skillmonkey. Not exactly hurting in terms of fighting capability either. Sneak attack is nice though, I suppose, but the 2 more skill points a level are a very minor thing.
So combining them does no harm.


Very different fluff.

Incarnum-users call their soulmelds into being by focusing them through personally-held ideals. Soulborn and Incarnates use alignment ideals for this purpose.

Totemists are somewhat different, using the idealized images of various monsters.
So if Incarnates and Totemists are fine as is, what do I do with Soulborn? And is it tier 5 or 4?


If you're already willing to go beyond the simple approach of gestalting pre-established classes, you may as well head over to Homebrew and find a fighter fix that you like. I'm putting in my vote for Grod_the_Giant's.
I'd rather do it my way. Further houseruling is a "last resort" type of thing. I hoped I wouldn't have to do it.


T3-4. The difference between those two is less important than it sometimes seems.
Then maybe I add the Soulborn to it?

[Coidzor]

I'm trying to think of a possible class combination that would meaningfully outperform its strongest component, but I'm drawing a blank.

Monk + Ninja would at least theoretically alleviate the damage problems of the monk by providing sneak attack dice for extra damage and to qualify for craven.

But it also appears to make the character more MAD by wanting some Charisma, at least for certain things. The bigger ki pool might be useful if there's anything useful that ki can be spent on.


So combining them does no harm.

Not a whole lot of point to it though.

[gkathellar]

So if Incarnates and Totemists are fine as is, what do I do with Soulborn? And is it tier 5 or 4?

It's tier 5, and the general solution is: kill it with fire.


Then maybe I add the Soulborn to it?

PF Monk//PF Ninja//Soulborn? On that one hand, that's clever, and might push it into solid tier 3. On the other hand, Soulborn are paragons of extreme alignments, required to be CE, CG, LG or LE and loaded with Smite abilities. You'll need to find some way around that fluff.

[Soup]

While I get what you're trying to do, you're undermining the fluff of almost all the classes. The whole concept of classes like Samurai, Swashbuckler and Knight is to specialize in certain archetypes, irrelevant of how underpowered the classes are.
I suppose they could all take advantage by Gestalting with Fighter, but to be honest, you're not dealing with the core issue: spellcasters do it better.

Rolling all those classes into one just gives the character a huge stack of abilities it can't use and aren't synergised. A Knight doesn't need Weapon Finesse, a barbarian doesn't need TWF as he's swinging his axe in combat anyway.

Re Incarnum: all the classes have their own fluff. You could theoretically roll Incarnate and Soulborn into one. In the end, you have a slightly stronger incarnate and the Soulborn abilities still don't matter.

A few combinations I could see working:
Swashbuckler+Rogue: given the fact that there's a feat for combining them already, this is a match made in heaven. Can hold his own in combat combat, but is basically an improved Rogue.

Barbarian+Dragon Shaman: if only to give Dragon Shamans full BAB. Fluffwise, you'd have to explain why every barbarian worships dragons.

Paladin+Marshal+Healer: this is one of yours I like, you have a strong Leader chassis with some decent spells to back it up. MAD is still a problem though. Ofcourse, you'd have to get rid of the Healer's code of conduct, or else you're stuck with a full BAB char who can't do anything. Actually, a Fighter/Marshal/Healer chassis would be stronger, as the Healer gets a special mount as well.

Soulknife+Lurk: Two underpowered Psionic classes with a decent synergy. Lurk's finally have some combat abilities and a Soulknife has some extra strategic options. It's still grossly underpowered though.

[Manateee]

Paladin//Healer could get something like Charging Smite + Unicorn, though. So it would probably be a nifty combination overall.

Lurk really just needs full manifester PP to work right. But Soulknife wouldn't hurt there either.

[Helldog]

you're undermining the fluff of almost all the classes.
Fluff is mutable. And the only fluff that those classes care about (and have in common) is that they fight.


The whole concept of classes like Samurai, Swashbuckler and Knight is to specialize in certain archetypes, irrelevant of how underpowered the classes are.
If I can build the archetype with other classes and make it better, there's no real point in having those base classes. But I'm not okay with just banning or ignoring them. I'm trying to use them in some way.


you're not dealing with the core issue: spellcasters do it better.
What spellcasters can do is irrelevant to me. It's not my goal to make mundanes and casters equal. I'm just trimming unnecessary classes out and upping mundane classes to tier 3.


Rolling all those classes into one just gives the character a huge stack of abilities it can't use and aren't synergised.
When you specialize in something (for example tanking) you have what it needs from Knight, but when tanking isn't an option for whatever reason, you always have other abilities as backup plan. Yes, maybe they're not optimized, but it's better than nothing.


A Knight doesn't need Weapon Finesse, a barbarian doesn't need TWF as he's swinging his axe in combat anyway.
"Doesn't need it" isn't the same as "can't/shouldn't have it". Any warrior worth his title should be able to fight both in and out of armor. Many abilities that are exclusive to one combat class are, IMO, abilities that should really be the basics for any combat class.


Re Incarnum: all the classes have their own fluff.
Fluff is mutable.

[Manateee]

Everything is mutable, but it seems like you're just making these mutations for the sake of making mutations.

Archetypes are the reason classes exist. If dropping the archetypes, why stick with a class game?

[Helldog]

Everything is mutable, but it seems like you're just making these mutations for the sake of making mutations.

Archetypes are the reason classes exist. If dropping the archetypes, why stick with a class game?
There still are archetypes, just not as separate classes, because I find it stupid and pointless.

And I make those to give mundanes more versatility and power.

[Mystify]

I always though of ninjas as gestalt monk rogues anyways. They are a stealth, assassin type character, with martial arts skills and training. Declare katanas as monk weapons, add in HiPS or inivisibilty, and there you go.

[kulosle]

So hear is one thing to think about, stack the classes together based off of what stats they use not what mechanic they use.

Fighter + Swashbuckler + Knight + Samurai - swashbuckler doesn't fit with knight. knight is a heavy plated tank that uses con and cha while swashbuckler need dex and speed. remove either of them and then it would look like a class. i'd suggest swashbuckler

Monk + Ninja - This makes sense in 3.5 and makes for a very wis SAD character, not sure about pathfinder. just for the love of god give him pounce and let his fist count as masterwork.

Paladin + Knight + Marshal + Healer- what you just make is the unstoppable tank. Add in a crusader dip and this class would be amazing, not sure how it fits together though paladin knight and healer makes sense because of the LG requirement and are all cha and con based, marshal makes sense to for the same reasons, but its the only unmounted class. The main problem is the healer is restricted to light non metal armor. That is something you'll have to get around, group together the code of conduct into one nicely written one. you'd also have to do something about the spells, if your getting a full spell list the paladins spells levels will need to be reassigned, so that he gets them at about the same level.

Ranger + Barbarian + Dragon Shaman + Scout- i don't think a raging barbarian really fits in nicely with someone whos requires stealth to get the job done, scout.

Rogue + Factotum- this is just redundant. the factotum is a jack of all trades and the rogue focuses on stealth its just odd. The factotum originally is a slave that is taught a little of everything so that you only have to maintain one slave. Besides factotum is already tier 3

I'm not going to get into the soulmeld stuff because i don't know enough either, so i don't think either of us should mess with it.

list of tier 4 and below classes, except psionics, incarnate, and ToM subsystems, due to lack of knowledge of them.
barbarian-unique no need to gestalt
dragon shaman- unique no need to gestalt
fighter- can meld with any martial class
healer- must be LG, light armor, full casting, cha and wis based, could meld with any other LG class if you get around the mechanic issues
hexblade-unique no need to gestalt
knight- a tanky class, can meld with any other heavy plated tanks, fighter, paladin, samurai.
marshal - unique no need to gestalt
monk - combine with any other lawful unarmored martial class, fighter, swashbuclker, sohei. or other make it more sneaky and combine with ninja, scout.
ninja- wisdom based sneaky skill monkeys, combine with other sneaky classes rogue, scout, maybe spellthief
paladin- LG mounted tank combine with others, knight, fighter, samurai, maybe healer
ranger- nature based off tank good scout so combine with scout, maybe
rouge. or other off tanks like swashbuckler
rogue- skill monkey sneak, combine with ninja, scout, maybe ranger
samurai- combine with fighter, knight, paladin
scout- rogue, ninja, spellthief
sohei- unarmored rager, monk or fighet
spellthief- unique no need to gestalt
swashbuckler- combine with other lightly armored non str based characters, maybe hexblade or ranger
warlock- unique no need to gestalt
warmage- unique no need to gestalt

[Helldog]

Fighter + Swashbuckler + Knight + Samurai - swashbuckler doesn't fit with knight. knight is a heavy plated tank that uses con and cha while swashbuckler need dex and speed. remove either of them and then it would look like a class. i'd suggest swashbuckler
They're all fighting classes. Together they make a versatile fighting class that supports any archetype you want to go into.


Paladin + Knight + Marshal + Healer- what you just make is the unstoppable tank. Add in a crusader dip and this class would be amazing, not sure how it fits together though paladin knight and healer makes sense because of the LG requirement and are all cha and con based, marshal makes sense to for the same reasons, but its the only unmounted class. The main problem is the healer is restricted to light non metal armor. That is something you'll have to get around, group together the code of conduct into one nicely written one. you'd also have to do something about the spells, if your getting a full spell list the paladins spells levels will need to be reassigned, so that he gets them at about the same level.
Paladin has variants with all the alignments.
Healer obviously is without his restrictions.
Paladins and Healers spells are separate. I'm not bothering combining them into one spell list.


Ranger + Barbarian + Dragon Shaman + Scout- i don't think a raging barbarian really fits in nicely with someone whos requires stealth to get the job done, scout.
Even barbarians do sometimes need to be stealthy. And if you play a primarily stealthy character then you always will have Barbarians toughness and raw power in case your stealthiness and finesse fails you.


Rogue + Factotum- this is just redundant. the factotum is a jack of all trades and the rogue focuses on stealth its just odd. The factotum originally is a slave that is taught a little of everything so that you only have to maintain one slave. Besides factotum is already tier 3
They're both skillmonkeys. Rogues are already archetypical smart guys, now they have mechanics to back that up.


barbarian-unique no need to gestalt
dragon shaman- unique no need to gestalt
fighter- can meld with any martial class
healer- must be LG, light armor, full casting, cha and wis based, could meld with any other LG class if you get around the mechanic issues
hexblade-unique no need to gestalt
knight- a tanky class, can meld with any other heavy plated tanks, fighter, paladin, samurai.
marshal - unique no need to gestalt
monk - combine with any other lawful unarmored martial class, fighter, swashbuclker, sohei. or other make it more sneaky and combine with ninja, scout.
ninja- wisdom based sneaky skill monkeys, combine with other sneaky classes rogue, scout, maybe spellthief
paladin- LG mounted tank combine with others, knight, fighter, samurai, maybe healer
ranger- nature based off tank good scout so combine with scout, maybe
rouge. or other off tanks like swashbuckler
rogue- skill monkey sneak, combine with ninja, scout, maybe ranger
samurai- combine with fighter, knight, paladin
scout- rogue, ninja, spellthief
sohei- unarmored rager, monk or fighet
spellthief- unique no need to gestalt
swashbuckler- combine with other lightly armored non str based characters, maybe hexblade or ranger
warlock- unique no need to gestalt
warmage- unique no need to gestalt
They're all tier 4 or below, which is precisely why I'm gestalting them. I want all classes to be at least tier 3. Uniqueness has nothing to do with it.
All I care is my intended power level and keeping to the theme of the classes.

[kulosle]

I think that having so much classes that essentially do the same, but in slightly different ways is stupid.

I thought this meant that you were only concerned about the once that have duplicates.

if you are trying to bring classes to tier 3 there is no need to gestalt factotum. Gestalt rogue with the other sneaky classes.


They're all fighting classes. Together they make a versatile fighting class that supports any archetype you want to go into.

If you are going with this than you would have to combine any class that gets full base attack bonus, because they are all fighting classes.

[Helldog]

if you are trying to bring classes to tier 3 there is no need to gestalt factotum. Gestalt rogue with the other sneaky classes.
It's the exact same archetype. And it doesn't matter that Factotum is already tier 3. Rogue won't make him overpowered, so it won't hurt.


If you are going with this than you would have to combine any class that gets full base attack bonus, because they are all fighting classes.
Here's the thing: Fighter, Knight, Swashbuckler and Samurai can just fight. That's all they have. It's pointless to have 4 distinct classes to do the same exact thing, but in different ways, at least when the classes are underpowered.
Barbarian and Ranger also fight, but they're also classes with a nature-y bent.
Paladin also fights, but he's also a leader and holy champion.