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View Full Version : Grimlock Grinder: Putting the "Epic" back in "Epic Fail"



Lonely Tylenol
2012-02-05, 11:20 PM
OK, so I'm in Oahu (an island of Hawaii), but I'm typing this for my group on Kauai (another island of Hawaii). If you happen to be in that group, you can and SHOULD read on, because... Well.

For those of you not in my group, I am referring to this 12-player (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228912) group (minus one of the magi, who had to quit for personal reasons).

So I have a large group, and I have to fly from Kauai to Oahu once a month for my course's seminars. Being that I have a large group and am not always able to run the game, I decided to do something novel: I got two co-DMs and then pre-wrote the encounter and general storyline of the adventure, such that the encounter could be run by these two co-GMs while I was gone. Then, I split the party up, so that each co-GM would run half.

I have been getting reports in from a bunch of the party's members, and it seems like the whole thing was a resounding success, except for one thing: at the end, the race against the oncoming hordes of possessed troll-likes turned into a Grimlock Grinder.

Here's the backstory:

The party was taken to a small mining town to the far northeast of their capital by the Minister of Commerce, who was investigating reports of protests over the use of machinery replacing workers. When they get there, they find total carnage: people are running around, frightened, throughout the town, boarding up their homes and storing food in shelters. They come to find that the machines have gone haywire and are pummeling and killing everything around them, and some of the miners have gone missing in the chaos, but aren't among the dead, and oh, whosoever can save them?

They head into the mine shaft, and they find the source of the initial chaos: the automatons have, indeed, gone crazy. After encountering a Pulverizer who appears to have short-circuited, and is making jerky movements, followed by a Hammerer who is beating the ever loving crap out of a pile of scrap formerly known as another Pulverizer, the party surveys the surroundings, and nope, no miners (except for a few dead ones). They descend further.

They descend down to a circular walkway for a time, and suddenly the shaft bottoms out, and only a rope ladder is there to carry them down. At the bottom of the ladder, they find that the tunnels have suddenly changed flavor: the mining team had, inadvertently, tunneled into the Underdark. The tunnels go in two directions--one "left" and one "right"--and so the party splits up to double their chances of finding the miners quickly. I'll give both sides.

Left:
The left side came across the corpse of a drow warrior near a (mostly) closed stone door after following a narrow tunnel. On the other side was a bridge that had been cut down, save for two ropes which they had to cling and crawl through to get by, but ultimately succeeded in the doing.

Shortly after the party crossed the bridge, they were attacked by a huge centipede, which was residing in the crevice and had seen them move across. Smelling food, the centipede closed on its prey--and instead tasted defeat.

The left side then finds their way into a large hall, which appears to have been completely overturned in a great struggle. Drow bodies are scattered everywhere, as well as those of greyish, troll-like race that they weren't as familiar with. While they were searching the room, they were ambushed by two drow rangers hiding behind piwafwis (which are basically drow Cloaks of Elvenkind), making a desperate last stand against the intruders. They are, however, able to talk them down, given the direness of their situation (and they were outnumbered even here), and this is where their part ends (and merges with the other side, after the spoiler).

Right:
The party encounters a bizarre patch of oil, about 10 x 30 feet along their tunnel, which smells terrible and is otherwise exactly like Grease. The squares are trapped, however, such that sudden and large forces (such as the force of a fall, or the combined weight of several adventurers) drops an alchemist's fire from the ground, setting the oil on fire. They pass by (but I was never given details on if they set off the trap), but the trap malfunctions at some point, causing a cave-in (this was not something I planned on, but something the DM who was running the group came up with, and that's OK). The way back is now blocked off.

They enter into a large room, rich with silver showing through the walls (as well as numerous holes), and of otherwise very shoddy construction, as if it was being hastily mined. Mats and mining supplies litter the ground, as do limbs and body parts of drow. Three Grimlocks happen to be feasting on such a body when they are interrupted by the party, which attacks them.

They kill them off, and upon searching the bodies, they each feel a warm feeling in their heads, but each one of them makes the save. They find that each of the Grimlocks have, hidden in their ears, a puppeteer, which is telepathically instructing them to pick it up (thinking they're under its control). They find the puppeteers, pick them up, and realizing them for what they are, they crush them. The puppeteers emit a piercing psychic shriek upon being destroyed (not unlike the beginning of Pendereki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima"), which alerts the rest of the psychically-controlled Grimlocks to their presence, and a veritable horde of Grimlocks (the DM of this group rolled 1d20 plus half of a percentile roll, and had a number of 65) start pouring out from the holes in the walls and converging on their point, axes raised and in a frenzy. With no way back, the group has no point but to press forward into a small exit at the other end of the room, racing against the horde.

The left group heard the psychic shriek from their end while negotiating with the drow, and when they crossed around from their side, the right group was finishing off two dread guards (fluffed as constructs of the army they were fighting for, though they were completely unresponsive) while one of the right group is holding the Grimlocks at bay using a natural choke point in the crevice they found themselves in, which was only about five feet wide. This is where things get screwy.

One of the left players, a Human Warblade, took point at the choke hold so that the rest could cross the bridge safely, and another, a Goliath Barbarian, went to help him. The Barbarian entered into a whirling frenzy (+ mountain rage; I have allowed this myself) and the Warblade entered into a total defense (and used Stone Bones regularly) and the two of them (with the party's assistance) slaughtered all 65 Grimlocks.

Every last one.

The barbarian himself killed 50 of them; he is a spiked chain grappler (Spirit Bear) and mountain rage makes him large, so he was able to hit more or less anything around through the choke point.

Now, obviously there was an oversight on my part (building in a choke point so the Grimlocks don't overrun them while they are fighting the dread guards), and I suspect that there were some... Flexible interpretations of the rules that I may or may not have allowed (I'm not sure, but I think the Warblade combined Combat Expertise with total defense or fighting defensively, the alchemist gave the Goliath an extract of Enlarge Person), and maybe even some things I would have done differently (like having the Grimlocks adapt to the situation by forming a wide perimeter or by bull-rushing the Warblade), but... They wound up with a literal Grimlock Grinder with everything they got put through.

Yeah, I just kinda don't know how to move forward from there. Seeing as I wasn't there to see it unfold, I really don't know what to do. Word around the table is they all had a blast doing it, though. That's where they ended for the night, so I pick up exactly at the point where they finish killing more than five dozen Grimlocks.

What should I do about this?

Lagren
2012-02-06, 12:35 AM
Let them have it. It's freaking awesome.

Now, the question is... Who made the puppets? Because they sure as heck have had a good long time to prepare for the party to attack them after their grimlock horde nicely died for them.

DoughGuy
2012-02-06, 12:53 AM
They kill them off, and upon searching the bodies, they each feel a warm feeling in their heads, but each one of them makes the save. They find that each of the Grimlocks have, hidden in their ears, a puppeteer, which is telepathically instructing them to pick it up (thinking they're under its control). They find the puppeteers, pick them up, and realizing them for what they are, they crush them.

65 saves for the left group?

Lonely Tylenol
2012-02-06, 01:35 AM
Let them have it. It's freaking awesome.

Now, the question is... Who made the puppets? Because they sure as heck have had a good long time to prepare for the party to attack them after their grimlock horde nicely died for them.

They are puppets of Puppeteers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/puppeteer.htm).

I would have specified before, but I was posting from a phone. (I have a habit of posting long-winded epithets on my phone during bus rides and such, and this warranted one.)


65 saves for the left group?

I don't think they have any intention of searching the Grimlocks, but I will have to ask what the DMs did about this oversight. Since the puppeteers try to control whatever they can within reach, they should have tried to force the Warblade or the Barbarian to do their bidding. At level 2, they would likely eventually fail a save.

(It's just as possible that the Warblade would have refreshed Moment of Perfect Mind to a ridiculous extreme, however.)

The party is asking if they are going to get EXP for killing every Grimlock. Adding all the Grimlocks individually (plus the Dread Guards they were fighting simultaneously at first), it's a CR 14 encounter. Obviously modifiers whittle it down, because they're basically just slaughtering large, very hostile fish in a barrel, but what, exactly, do I do about that? :smalleek: I mean, what, exactly, would you place an encounter of this scale, with such a crippling conditional bonus, at?

(They basically just went 300-style, as Young Leonidas, through their killing frenzy.)

TroubleBrewing
2012-02-06, 02:10 AM
Obviously modifiers whittle it down, because they're basically just slaughtering large, very hostile fish in a barrel, but what, exactly, do I do about that? :smalleek: I mean, what, exactly, would you place an encounter of this scale, with such a crippling conditional bonus, at?

I'd give them XP for an encounter 3 levels above theirs. It was challenging, but questionable rules interp + favorable ground + median system mastery knocks it down a bit.

However, purely in the interest of Rule of Cool, I'd offer them all a bonus: let them take trophies from the battle, and when they wear them they receive a +2 morale bonus to social interactions with anyone of the militant bent.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-02-06, 03:06 AM
I'd give them XP for an encounter 3 levels above theirs. It was challenging, but questionable rules interp + favorable ground + median system mastery knocks it down a bit.

That seems fair.


However, purely in the interest of Rule of Cool, I'd offer them all a bonus: let them take trophies from the battle, and when they wear them they receive a +2 morale bonus to social interactions with anyone of the militant bent.

I'd say that they will definitely receive a morale bonus from this (the adrenaline kicking in, and everything), but I'm of the mind that slaughtering, wholesale, a local population of a race (and literally going out of your way to do it) is kind of capital E Evil, so though they'll get the experience points for it, and the morale bonus for the thrill of doing it, there are likely to be social consequences involved.

jaybird
2012-02-06, 07:40 AM
I'd say that they will definitely receive a morale bonus from this (the adrenaline kicking in, and everything), but I'm of the mind that slaughtering, wholesale, a local population of a race (and literally going out of your way to do it) is kind of capital E Evil, so though they'll get the experience points for it, and the morale bonus for the thrill of doing it, there are likely to be social consequences involved.

If they were attacked first (that is the way the battle seems to have gone), it's a Neutral act to kill them all, I think. Unless they went out of their way to kill noncombatants, at which point it does become Evil.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-02-06, 03:05 PM
If they were attacked first (that is the way the battle seems to have gone), it's a Neutral act to kill them all, I think. Unless they went out of their way to kill noncombatants, at which point it does become Evil.

Admittedly, this is also something I'm not quite sure how to peg. They were attacked first, but they were also acutely aware of the existence of the brain slugs in the Grimlocks' heads (after all, they killed the ones in the first group of Grimlocks they attacked, which were trying to work their mind control voodoo on them, and that's what triggered the psychic shockwave that alerted the others), and depending on how well the co-DM I had was describing the surroundings (which I had described in the notes), it should have been pretty obvious that they were surrounded by mining equipment (and thus, one might infer, the occupants just might be miners, and living under pretty poor conditions at that). The two drow, however, described the struggle with the Grimlocks as a turf war (they were lying, of course, or rather half-lying; the Grimlocks were the "turf"), but the PCs believed them. Of course, this wasn't in my notes, but an ad-hoc addition by the DM to fill a dialogue gap, since those drow didn't have a script.

Essentially, the Grimlock horde was entirely an army of non-combatant meat puppets of their combatant mind-slavers.

Honestly, had the Voidminded template from MMIII been fresh on my mind at the time, it would have been an army of Voidminded Grimlocks, instead of an army of Grimlocks controlled by Puppeteers controlled by a Fihyr controlled by an Illithid, but I guess it can't be helped now. But that's essentially what they fought; a local collection of slaves who became slaves to yet another, more domineering master, who met their tragic end in the Grimlock Grinder.

I deign to use the alignment chart for this, but what would you call THAT? :smallconfused:

DeAnno
2012-02-06, 04:10 PM
So what was the alternative here exactly? Get killed by Grimlocks? And it isn't exactly like they massacred 65 civilian humans: Grimlocks are "often" neutral evil monstrous humanoids.

I could maybe see a slight shift from Good towards Neutral, but definitely not from Neutral towards Evil.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-02-06, 09:23 PM
So what was the alternative here exactly? Get killed by Grimlocks? And it isn't exactly like they massacred 65 civilian humans: Grimlocks are "often" neutral evil monstrous humanoids.

Cross the bridge, cut the ropes connecting it to their side, the Grimlocks are now stranded on the other side with no ready means of accessing them? The bridge on the left side was cut, the people on the left side were there, the bridge was of the same construction, everyone has weapons (many of them sharp).

Or if the party can't figure that out, the Grimlocks, in their mind-controlled frenzy, overload the bridge and it snaps on its own?

Neither of those options involved the deliberate, wholesale slaughter of an entire local species, and one of them was written in with several clues to help people toward that conclusion if they needed it.

I don't see how the creature's alignment factors into this. If you were to commit to the genocide of all drow in your area, the act is no less destructive than the eradication of all high elves. Besides, "often Neutral Evil" is a gross oversimplification, which is why I elected to focus instead on the Grimlocks as fleshed out in the Underdark (p. 13), where they are fleshed out, given personality, and have reasons for their actions and feelings, as opposed to the Grimlocks as portrayed in the Monster Manual (p. 140), where they're a statblock and a paragraph on group organization. Notably,

On grimlock relations: "Grimlocks harbor intense distrust and hostility toward any race other than their own. Fed on by mind flayers, forced into slavery by both drow and illithids, and subjected to aboleth plots of exceptional depravity, grimlocks quite reasonably react xenophobically to others." (p. 14)

On alignment: "Although upperworlders regard all grimlocks as evil, many are actually neutral, concerned mostly with themselves and their own survival. They see themselves and their people as desperate survivors on the run, so they rationalize any evils they do as necessary for their continued existence."


I could maybe see a slight shift from Good towards Neutral, but definitely not from Neutral towards Evil.

I'm not advocating a hard alignment shift, nor am I going to say "you can't do that, that's evil". From the onset, I've told them that this is a game where they have the freedom to choose to do things like this, but that all actions can and will have consequences in-game. I'm just wondering what the consequences would be in this case, from a social standpoint. How does the world react to slaughtering an entire population of mind-controlled creatures (read: not capable of acting independently), even it's being rationalized as self-defense?

EDIT: It should be noted that I do have an in-game reaction to this event (in short, it's similar to my out-of-game reaction, which is "shock"). I'm just wondering if anyone has any input as to how this would play out, from a social perspective.

Gnorman
2012-02-07, 07:07 AM
Most likely, they are congratulated for wiping out a warren of hostile monsters. Villagers care not for nuanced concerns about morality - 99% of them will either assume grimlocks are evil, thus assuaging any guilt they might feel, or just not care at all in the first place.

I have to side with the group, alignment shift seems punitive - this is an awesome moment of wholesale slaughter, and sometimes you have to sacrifice moral and environmental concerns to the gods of epic battle.

ClothedInVelvet
2012-02-07, 07:28 AM
Most likely, they are congratulated for wiping out a warren of hostile monsters. Villagers care not for nuanced concerns about morality - 99% of them will either assume grimlocks are evil, thus assuaging any guilt they might feel, or just not care at all in the first place.

I have to side with the group, alignment shift seems punitive - this is an awesome moment of wholesale slaughter, and sometimes you have to sacrifice moral and environmental concerns to the gods of epic battle.

I concur. You gave them an encounter that you thought would be difficult, if not impossible, and they kicked it in the ...knee. Good for them. Every DM goes through it, but I don't think an alignment shift is the way to deal with it.

Reward them, and remember that they're capable of acting tactically and defying odds in certain situations. Good luck.

Acanous
2012-02-07, 08:16 AM
Charm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/charmPsionic.htm) has a range. 65 will saves seems appropriate, at least for the warblade/barb combo. The rest may be out of range.

I believe there is a section in the DMG somewhere that outlines the maximum experience a character can receive from any single encounter is one less from levelling twice, but that may be a holdover from 2E.

Still, that's what I'd give them. your lv 2 party is now 1 XP from lv 4, and dealing with a ridonculous number of will saves VS Charm.

Granted, they get the bonus from knowing the things are hostile, but 65 saves is 65 saves. split it up, the things only get one action a round per.

Charm is not dominate, and it won't make the party into mind-slaves...but it will definately scare your players a little and show them that next time, running may be more prudent.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-02-07, 03:28 PM
Most likely, they are congratulated for wiping out a warren of hostile monsters. Villagers care not for nuanced concerns about morality - 99% of them will either assume grimlocks are evil, thus assuaging any guilt they might feel, or just not care at all in the first place.

Why, you...

...Are absolutely right.

They are dealing with people who are every bit as ignorant as they are about the Underdark. Why should they care?


I have to side with the group, alignment shift seems punitive

It was also never on the table:


I'm not advocating a hard alignment shift, nor am I going to say "you can't do that, that's evil".


I concur. You gave them an encounter that you thought would be difficult, if not impossible, and they kicked it in the ...knee. Good for them.

Actually, I didn't give them an encounter, period. I designed the encounter with the Dread Guards to have no upper limit on the number of grimlocks who came pouring out of that hole; the DM who ran that side decided on the number and the method (20+ 1/2 of a percentile roll) himself. I also designed the choke point specifically so that the grimlocks themselves would be benign--the idea was that, as a whole, the grimlocks were dangerous and worth running away from, but


Every DM goes through it, but I don't think an alignment shift is the way to deal with it.

Again, this was never on the table. I'm of the mind that this was a capital E Evil act, yes, but I am NOT of the mind that doing something that is capital E Evil automatically qualifies you as being capital E Evil. It's a mindset, not an action. (This is why I banned paladin PCs in my game: any player that has alignment restrictions on who can accompany them is going to have problems at a table without such inherent restrictions. See: Neutral Evil guy.)


Reward them, and remember that they're capable of acting tactically and defying odds in certain situations. Good luck.

Oh, I knew that they were capable. The choke point itself was laughably easy, for instance, funneling them in one-by-one and keeping the number of directions they had to worry about limited.

I just didn't think they'd actually do it: this is a party of people who, nine times out of ten, will answer any given encounter with "I run up the nearest tree at the slightest provocation and shoot at it with arrows", even of their to-hit with a bow is absolutely pitiful. This has always struck me as odd, considering that almost all of their character concepts involved melee combat in some way. The idea of closing with an enemy, or letting one close with them, is absolutely foreign.

(But then again, most of them didn't close here either; they let the two big guys with swords soak up all the blows, ran up the metaphorical tree, and shot at them with arrows. So I suppose nothing changed.)


Charm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/charmPsionic.htm) has a range.

...

Charm is not dominate, and it won't make the party into mind-slaves...but it will definately scare your players a little and show them that next time, running may be more prudent.

I enjoyed the post throughout, but felt it prudent to mention the special interaction between psionic Charm and the puppeteer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/puppeteer.htm):


Enthrall (Ex)
If a puppeteer is in physical contact with a person it has charmed (the puppeteer establishes a physical hold by means of slender infiltrating tendrils), the subject acts as if dominated. (Puppeteers often seek to charm victims first and then “ask” to be picked up.) So long as the puppeteer remains in contact with the victim, the domination remains in effect, even if a check would normally indicate that the effect is broken.

So yes, 65 saves vs. Charm could very easily mean domination.

That isn't going to stop me from doing it, of course, because the entire point of the first three puppeteers trying to charm them in the first place was because their host bodies were destroyed and they needed new ones... And now that is just as true for the 65 they just slaughtered.

Only difference is that I would have done the Charm effect WHILE they were in combat, which the DM obviously didn't do (well, that or the subjects succeeded on 65-195 straight saves), but that would involve a retcon of the whole affair, and I won't take away their moment of epic win... Even if I obviously disagree with it (SO MANY THINGS I would have done differently if I played the grimlocks... Like, for example, bull rushing or pulling away the Warblade once they realized that they couldn't possibly hit him).

DeAnno
2012-02-07, 03:45 PM
Its seeming more and more like the problem here is that two DMs don't really want to (or are able to) run the game in the same sort of way. However you manage to get through this difficulty, I can only imagine similar things will happen in the future.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-02-07, 04:22 PM
Its seeming more and more like the problem here is that two DMs don't really want to (or are able to) run the game in the same sort of way. However you manage to get through this difficulty, I can only imagine similar things will happen in the future.

I agree and disagree. I agree in that the right half was DEFINITELY DMed differently from how I would have done it (while I found the method for determining the number of grimlocks in the horde contrary to my original intention, it was totally reasonable and I applauded him for doing it; however, the grimlocks themselves were played very stupidly, going so far as to take full-round actions dragging the corpse of the last grimlock who could only possibly hit on a critical hit, just so another one could take his place and enact the same extremely futile strategy, which strikes me as just being intentionally, sarcastically dumb); I disagree in the person who was DMing the right half wasn't the person I picked to DM. The person I had *intended* to DM the right half called in late in the previous night, while I was doing work for my classes, and said he couldn't make it because he had a dress rehearsal for a play that night, so I had to pick someone else to run it at the last minute.

...

That information probably would have been important to know before that, huh?

Sorry; I'm a little scatterbrained.

Anyway, the people who ended up DMing (one being one of my main co-DMs, and the other the last-minute alternate) were generally faithful to the notes, and were pretty good at improvising when my notes were found wanting (the drow told them the wrong thing, and the grimlocks didn't have an actual number assigned to them). I am generally satisfied with how this went, especially considering I was off-island, incommunicato, and had a DM who had the notes thrust upon him that day. They did a pretty good job of things, all told. The execution of this one encounter (where the grimlocks were literally stupid enough to pave a path to their own single-file deaths, and the puppeteers were suddenly absent from the encounter completely) is the thing that is really irking me about this, I guess, but mostly because the difference became something not only impactful, but game-changing; the other changes can be adapted quite easily, but there's really no way of ignoring or adjusting smoothly from the flight for their lives to this gratuitous, almost masturbatory, blender of mind-controlled limbs that they created.

EDIT: Anyway, I do have to take credit for my blatant oversight with the 5-foot chokehold being what it was. I will have to meet with both of them privately to discuss this more (though I have talked it over with the DM who ran the left side).

Hellwyrm
2012-02-17, 03:23 AM
Sorry nothing much to add about the situation... Everyones different, and the fun they had seems to trump most things. But this


The puppeteers emit a piercing psychic shriek upon being destroyed (not unlike the beginning of Pendereki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima")

is completely awesome and so appropriate. I'm glad someone caught you out :smalltongue: