Legend Thread 2: This Game Is Not Left Handed

[Flickerdart]

http://i43.tinypic.com/2rdypuo.png (http://ruleofcool.com)

Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/) is an innovative d20-based system that originated in our very own Homebrew boards, and launched in late November 2011. In the two months since, we have moved over 20,000 copies, with all proceeds donated directly to Child's Play. Read more about Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/about-legend/) or download the rulebook (http://www.ruleofcool.com/get-the-game/).


Links
1

Rule of Cool (development blog) (http://www.ruleofcool.com/)
IRC channel for Legend (http://02.chat.mibbit.com/?server=irc.gamesurge.net&channel=%23Legend)
Download Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/get-the-game/)
Free DLC for Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/donation-thresholds/)



Past Threads1

Legend Thread 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223875)



News1

Feb 05: Our pay-what-you-want period has just concluded. Stay tuned for a new way to donate - all proceeds from the book will still go to Child's Play.
Feb 06: Our first adventure module is content-complete, and running through its final editing passes, so you can expect it soon.
Feb 19: The Legend Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dvr/illustrating-legend) is live.
March 3rd: We have forums? We have forums (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/)!

[gkathellar]

Nice logo. :smallbiggrin:

How is access to the full book for donors going to work?

[Deth Muncher]

Well, I promised you a first impression thing for the adventure, didn't I? So here goes. But before I do, I'm not going to post any kind of real spoilers with the exception of talking about the premades and the overall general thing until someone from Rule of Cool says I can.

So.

EDIT: Doc Roc has used the official name on the RoC site, so I will too.

Osaka Street Stories is an adventure meant for 3-5 level 4 heroes. There are only four premades: a Gnome pyromancer, a Dwarf rogue/monk, a Human paladin and a Fire Demon. Yes, this makes sense given the adventure. I will say after having looked over the plot of the whole thing, it's pretty well written: It almost makes me think of a cyberpunk story, but without the cyber. It's actually not set in Hollow at all, though I'm sure with a bit of tweaking it could be. You're in a city, and some mobsters take something of yours that because [Plot] you can't let them have. You and your band of friends go to kick some butt and get your [Macguffin] back.

(Also, as a side note, you may recall the fifth character I made, since I had 5 players and 4 premades: a human Paladin Vigilante. Think Sentai meets Judge Dredd.)

The lethality of this game is...well, low, if you do it right. I misread/misinterpreted the rules on the feat Tell Them Still Angry, which some of the mooks have, so read correctly, there are some fights (the last half of the adventure, of course) which are a little bit rougher than those in the beginning, but it's all pretty well balanced. Well...sort of. I mean, you're not gonna run around killing mooks in one hit - they're slightly weaker than the party, sure, and if they mob up (no pun intended) then they might kill a guy, but with liberal use of healing, it really shouldn't be that bad.

The adventure's got a few cool new Skill Games to look forward to - one's a more in-depth look at interrogation, and the other...well, that's a surprise. ;D Oh, and there's actually another one, which...is also a surprise. It's really weird and out there, but I like it.

Now, we only got about...eh, a third of the way through, so no word on the actual play-through of the last chunk, but from what we played, the PCs enjoyed it (minus a few chunks where we realized there were some errors in the text with regards to Skill DCs, but hey, that's what Beta is for!) and I think you will too.

[Mystify]

Every time I try to dissect a track to see if it combos better than other tracks, I come to the conclusion that it doesn't, or that its naturally paired with the clearest choice. Sure, there are plenty of cool and effective combination you can do with them, but none of them jump out at me as "This is really powerful". Some give me that initial impression, until I examine the details of what is going on, and realize that it is sacrificing other things for the awesome.
The system has thus far prevented me from making anything more powerful than is reasonable, but has let me make a ton of cool concepts.
I can specialize in one type of thing, such as keeping rest of the party alive, or dealing damage, and have enough options to fulfill those goals. I can operate off of a character concept, and use the system to satisfy it. The system also suggests certain concepts, without making them a choice the designer decided should be there. At least, they don't feel like they were artificially added, it feels like a natural consequence of what is given. All of the classes are able to fulfill their roles effectively, and do so in interesting ways, but you are not tied to those roles.
You can play the hulking barbarian, a battle rogue, or the magiest mage who ever maged. You can embrace magic fully and be a vancian caster, or you can utilize a selection of at-will powers, or ignore magical abilities completely, and all these options are viable and useful. Magic is not needed to function in an effective and versatile manner, but magic is also fully viable in its own right.
All the while it remains simple to make the characters. no pouring over levels and deciding how many levels of each class to take, just select a few tracks and go. I can create these builds very quickly, without feeling like I'm missing out on the potential. Its balanced enough that I don't have to second guess every build I make, considering whether it will function in a game, or if its too powerful and would have to be toned down for actual use.


So, purely from a character design standpoint, it is beautiful. I love it. It accomplishes everything I want from character design, and I am very focused on character building.

[Deth Muncher]

Every time I try to dissect a track to see if it combos better than other tracks, I come to the conclusion that it doesn't, or that its naturally paired with the clearest choice. Sure, there are plenty of cool and effective combination you can do with them, but none of them jump out at me as "This is really powerful". Some give me that initial impression, until I examine the details of what is going on, and realize that it is sacrificing other things for the awesome.
The system has thus far prevented me from making anything more powerful than is reasonable, but has let me make a ton of cool concepts.
I can specialize in one type of thing, such as keeping rest of the party alive, or dealing damage, and have enough options to fulfill those goals. I can operate off of a character concept, and use the system to satisfy it. The system also suggests certain concepts, without making them a choice the designer decided should be there. At least, they don't feel like they were artificially added, it feels like a natural consequence of what is given. All of the classes are able to fulfill their roles effectively, and do so in interesting ways, but you are not tied to those roles.
You can play the hulking barbarian, a battle rogue, or the magiest mage who ever maged. You can embrace magic fully and be a vancian caster, or you can utilize a selection of at-will powers, or ignore magical abilities completely, and all these options are viable and useful. Magic is not needed to function in an effective and versatile manner, but magic is also fully viable in its own right.
All the while it remains simple to make the characters. no pouring over levels and deciding how many levels of each class to take, just select a few tracks and go. I can create these builds very quickly, without feeling like I'm missing out on the potential. Its balanced enough that I don't have to second guess every build I make, considering whether it will function in a game, or if its too powerful and would have to be toned down for actual use.


So, purely from a character design standpoint, it is beautiful. I love it. It accomplishes everything I want from character design, and I am very focused on character building.

100% this.

I'm thinking what I might end up doing is writing up some classic characters in Legend stats just so people can have a nice starting point and see what's what, just to show exactly WHAT people can do with characters. (And what some of those tracks are obvious references to. ;D)

[Lagren]

Dibs on Harry Dresden.

[Zejety]

I'm thinking what I might end up doing is writing up some classic characters in Legend stats just so people can have a nice starting point and see what's what, just to show exactly WHAT people can do with characters. (And what some of those tracks are obvious references to. ;D)
Just admit it. You don't do it to help people, but because it is fun. :P

Tell us if you want others to participate. I have a Dracula build to share.

[Doc Roc]

I just realized we've done better than the pathfinder Q&A. That's something, right? On the other hand, actual play on the boards seems to have been really limited.

We could really use help raising awareness, or with PR. Hopefully, having an adventure module in hand will make it easier for you guys to talk about us. I know it's made me feel a lot more comfortable trying to sell people on the game.

[gkathellar]

100% this.

I'm thinking what I might end up doing is writing up some classic characters in Legend stats just so people can have a nice starting point and see what's what, just to show exactly WHAT people can do with characters. (And what some of those tracks are obvious references to. ;D)

That seems like a good idea. Maybe us fans could start to collectively put together a build index?

[Deth Muncher]

Just admit it. You don't do it to help people, but because it is fun. :P

Tell us if you want others to participate. I have a Dracula build to share.


That seems like a good idea. Maybe us fans could start to collectively put together a build index?

Oh, I mean, I didn't mean that I held the exclusive rights to Legend-izing characters. :P By all means, post your own, make an index. I just meant that maybe I could put one out a week or something. It's not like I do a webcomic or anything, just lots and lots of English majoring. i.e. Something that gets ignored in favor of RPGs.

[Cieyrin]

a Dwarf rouge/monk

So, Dwarven makeup ascetics, eh? :smallwink:

That aside, it sounds awesome.


I just realized we've done better than the pathfinder Q&A. That's something, right? On the other hand, actual play on the boards seems to have been really limited.

We could really use help raising awareness, or with PR. Hopefully, having an adventure module in hand will make it easier for you guys to talk about us. I know it's made me feel a lot more comfortable trying to sell people on the game.

If I can get my financial status actually secure, I can turn to seeing about doing things again, like get something written up and advertising in my local region for Legend, especially with the upcoming convention here come April, eh? :smallwink:

Actually, I might be able to persuade some college friends to run Legend at another convention that should be upcoming soon. Let me poke some people and maybe there will be some Legend happening in the Milwaukee area soon. :smallbiggrin:

[Deth Muncher]

So, Dwarven makeup ascetics, eh? :smallwink:


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF- -explosion-

I ALWAYS get people on that mistake, and now I have made it. Ritual suicide, here I come. It's the only way to cleanse the shame from my family.

...anyway. Good catch.

[Flickerdart]

So, Dwarven makeup ascetics, eh? :smallwink:
Dwarven makeup aesthetics definitely leave something to be desired.

[Geigan]

Restating my question from last time for discussion since it seems to have been skipped over.


I would like to know how people tend to handle magical items in their games in acquisition, allowance, and other aspects. Do you hand them out at the levels where the bindings open up or do you make them earn them before they can bind them as well? Do you stick to the default fluff or do you reflavor most of it? Do you treat them as rewards, natural character advancement, or something else? How do you treat the magic items that enemies have if they haven't full bought in or if they are high enough level in the full buy in to still have items? etc etc etc

Also I'm broken up over what to do when the module comes out. I would have so much fun DMing it, but at the same time I would have so much fun playing it. What do?:smallfrown:

[Cieyrin]

Also I'm broken up over what to do when the module comes out. I would have so much fun DMing it, but at the same time I would have so much fun playing it. What do?:smallfrown:

Get some other schmuck to DM it for you and then run it for a group of hapless schmucks? :smallbiggrin:

[Geigan]

Get some other schmuck to DM it for you and then run it for a group of hapless schmucks? :smallbiggrin:

Well I feel responsible for running the module actually since I was the one who introduced them to Legend. I feel like I must personally look at every thing to so I can see all the awesomeness first make sure it's up to their standards.:smallwink:

[Madcrafter]

Just reposting Geigan's question from the last thread, since it never got any responses with the excitement of reaching 50 pages. I'm curious as to how anyone who's played the game has handled the magic items as well.


I would like to know how people tend to handle magical items in their games in acquisition, allowance, and other aspects. Do you hand them out at the levels where the bindings open up or do you make them earn them before they can bind them as well? Do you stick to the default fluff or do you reflavor most of it? Do you treat them as rewards, natural character advancement, or something else? How do you treat the magic items that enemies have if they haven't full bought in or if they are high enough level in the full buy in to still have items? etc etc etc

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I just realized we've done better than the pathfinder Q&A. That's something, right? On the other hand, actual play on the boards seems to have been really limited.

We could really use help raising awareness, or with PR. Hopefully, having an adventure module in hand will make it easier for you guys to talk about us. I know it's made me feel a lot more comfortable trying to sell people on the game.

I've been doing my part by linking to the Rule of Cool website on every forum I visit and encouraging people to try it out.

Also, I'm still working on that secret project of mine that might help this out a bit as well...

[arskyer]

I'm confused by special weapons, mostly the;


"You can choose to use a special weapon with two hands and not benefit from its special property. If you do so, you can treat it as a Main weapon for purposes of calculating damage."
Is this limited by anything, such as to one or two handed weapons only or is it any [Special Weapon]? So would a Crossbow do main weapon damage if I smacked someone with it?

I think the weapon properties could use an expansion. In particular, I think it could use a [Ranged] property, noting that Main weapons have a range of [Medium] while Hold-Out and Special weapons are [Close] (which seems to be the system you're using). An idea in regards to the specific example given by darkbuu_1: add a phrase to the (proposed) [Ranged] entry noting that [Ranged] weapons used in [Melee] are treated as hold-out weapons.



Also, a question about Struggle: I've been treating this ability as if it grants the bonus damage on a successful third attack - that's the way I understood it after the first read through - but now I realize that it can be read to apply to the damage roll of the second attack. Which way is it?

If it activates on the third attack, then the Struggle ability is rather frustrating, because it requires you to declare your actions in particular ways in order to effectively use it. And considering how easy to use the rest of the system is, that's annoying as the IRS.

If it activates on the second attack, then suddenly it becomes an awesome ability, full stop. But please clarify the ability so that it can't be mistaken, if this is the case.

[gkathellar]

So I'm thinking I may start statting up OotS characters in the Legend ruleset for my own amusement. I've got the Order basically figured out, and I'm figuring the end of "Don't Split the Party" is a good temporal benchmark.

But what level do people think various characters should be at? Xykon is probably 20th level, while Redcloak just hit 18 or so. They're at the high end of the spectrum — where's the Order in relation to that? Also, who in the cast is likely to count as Legendary?

For reference, here's what I've got so far (be aware that their optimization is generally pretty bad):

Roy — Human Barbarian w/Tactical Insight, Knight (Guild), Path of Destruction
Haley — Human Rogue w/Assassin, Acrobatic Adept, Esoterica Radica
Durkon — Dwarf Shaman w/Virtue (Guild), Shaman spellcasting, Bastion
Vaarsuvius — Elf Tactician w/Shaman spellcasting (Guild, Dartmuth Secret), Tactician spellcasting, True Mage
Belkar — Halfling Barbarian w/Path of Rage, Battle's Tempering, Utter Brute (Guild)
Elan — Human Rogue w/Smiting (Guild), Heroica, Fortune's Friend

[Cieyrin]

I'd almost certainly make Xykon Legendary, as he really is just that bad ass.

As for the order, they're around 13th-14th by my estimation, though that's in current terms, not by where Don't Split the Party ends, as I don't have the book to know to what comic that translates to.

Also, I don't recall ever seeing Of Might and Guile in any of the published material. Where from? :smallconfused:

[gkathellar]

Don't Split the Party ends around when Roy comes back to life, just before they go to the desert continent. Maybe about level 12, then? That sounds about right.

Of Might and Guile is supposed to be Heroica, fixed.

[Flickerdart]

I'd give Vaarsuvius True Mage or perhaps Bag of Tricks instead of Runesong Scholar - he's never really shown any interest in most of the things that Runesong does.

Also, while we're at it:

Xykon: Lich/Elementalist (Fire)/Necromancer
Redcloak: Incantation/Shaman Spells/True Mage
Tsukiko: Shaman Spells/Tactician Spells/Necromancer
Miko: Smiting/Path of Destruction/Disciple of the Crane

[gkathellar]

I'd give Vaarsuvius True Mage instead of Runesong Scholar - he's never really shown any interest in most of the things that Runesong does.

Damage people, energy resistance, fly and a variety of defensive effects aren't things Vaarsuvius does?

[Mystify]

Id give V true mage instead of sage spellcasting. Sage spellcasting is closer to cleric spellcasting.

[Flickerdart]

Damage people, energy resistance, fly and a variety of defensive effects aren't things Vaarsuvius does?
All of those things are handled with spells.

[gkathellar]

I suppose True Mage does generally make sense over Runesong Scholar, so I'll go with that.


Id give V true mage instead of sage spellcasting. Sage spellcasting is closer to cleric spellcasting.

Not really. Shamans have almost all of the blasting spells. I'd rather drop Tactician casting than deny the Evoker his fireball.

[Big Fau]

This is just to clarify something for myself, but is Legend in the Beta stage or is it completed (for whatever sense of complete an ongoing RPG has)?

[Mystify]

I suppose True Mage does generally make sense over Runesong Scholar, so I'll go with that.



Not really. Shamans have almost all of the blasting spells. I'd rather drop Tactician casting than deny the Evoker his fireball.

Then perhaps it should be elementalist instead. There are very few blasting spells on the shaman list, yet elementalist contains almost all of the typical evocation abilities.

[Lagren]

Legend has a complete PHB/DMG. There are ongoing errata, as with any game, but it is fully playable and nothing should be horribly broken.

There is as of yet no monster manual, but in the meantime there are rules for building your own. (Which is what I always ended up doing anyway in D&D...)

As stated in the OP, the first published adventure should be out Soon (TM).
Though in this case Soon (TM) is likely to be on the order of weeks, not months.

Edit:
The adventure (Osaka Street Stories) is now out, for anyone from the future reading this first page. The Monster Manual is still forthcoming.

[gkathellar]

Then perhaps it should be elementalist instead. There are very few blasting spells on the shaman list, yet elementalist contains almost all of the typical evocation abilities.

Eh, I might do Elementalist instead of True Mage, but there are some spells on the Shaman list I don't want to miss. Since he's 12th level, how does this look for a spell workup? (I'm doing Roy first, but I might as well throw this together.)

Shaman
Endure Elements
Obscuring Mist
Bless/Bane (always used as Bane)
Status
Resist Elements
Remove Paralysis/Hold Person (mostly for Hold)
Call Lightning
Poison
Dispel Magic
Flame Strike
Stoneskin
Dimensional Anchor

Tactician
Magic Missile
Silent Image
Entangle
Invisibility/Silence
See Invisibility
Fly
Slow
Arcane Sight
Freedom of Movement
Scrying
Greater Invisibility
Feeblemind

[Flickerdart]

This is just to clarify something for myself, but is Legend in the Beta stage or is it completed (for whatever sense of complete an ongoing RPG has)?
The Beta label on the second page is because we're still ironing some things out, mostly small errors. Some DLC that we consider important will also be eventually rolled into the main document.

[Big Fau]

The Beta label on the second page is because we're still ironing some things out, mostly small errors. Some DLC that we consider important will also be eventually rolled into the main document.

Ok, so I'm mostly free to make some suggestions about certain issues in my critique (Doc requested that I do a review) and you guys may actually use some of them.

[Doc Roc]

Definitely still in a position to use feedback. I don't see that changed after we leave beta though.

[Mystify]

I still want clarification on what "hit twice in a row" means for the stuggle ability of the smiting track. Does it work between two rounds? Does it have to be with the same attack? What if the attack is hitting multiple people? Can you hit multiple people twice in a row like that? Would cleave utterly sabotage it? What if you hit in one round, don't make any attacks the next round, and then hit the following round? What if they are subjected to multiple whirlwind attacks in subsequent rounds, and those attacks include other people? What if its combod with iron magi, and you replace your attack with a cadence?

[Draz74]

Hmmm, I tried statting up the Order a while back, too. I'll do some critiquing.

On the subject of levels ... Vaarsuvius' spells are our best guide, although only under the assumption that (s)he isn't higher-level than the rest of the party. We first saw that V was Level 11 in 186 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html), Level 13 in 397 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html) (confirmed, in case the exact spell was in question, in 591 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html) and 627 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)), and Level 15 in 716, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html) shortly after the start of the latest book.

So by the end of Don't Split the Party, it seems likely that most of the Order was at least Level 14, even if V is one level higher than hir comrades.

On the other hand, it seems prudent to question whether there's a 1:1 correspondence between D&D levels and Legend levels, at the higher ends of the power spectrum. Perhaps Level 14 D&D characters are more like Level 10 Legend characters, or so? Certainly there are no Epic (20+) rules for Legend yet, and Xykon is most definitely higher than Level 20, so if you want to include him in your modeling you'll have to scale back some of the levels of at least some characters.

Finally, one more general note: OotS doesn't show particularly many magic items, so it's arguable that Full Buy-In would represent most characters better. On the other hand, none of the main Order seems to be particularly ascetic in flavor.


[LIST]
Roy — Human Barbarian w/Tactical Insight, Knight (Guild), Path of Destruction
He's smart, but I don't see him as having the whole Tactical Insight track. Perhaps just a feat or two along those lines, like Recon or something? I gave him Path of Destruction, Path of the Ancestors, and Protection. Of course, Knight didn't exist yet. And it's a pretty good match, with both protective and charge-happy abilities ... Hmmm.

Haley — Human Rogue w/Assassin, Acrobatic Adept, Esoterica Radica
Oh, she definitely should multiclass into Reign of Arrows instead of Assassin.

Durkon — Dwarf Shaman w/Virtue (Guild), Shaman spellcasting, Bastion
That could work (especially now that he's researching Mass versions of buffs). I gave him Heroica, but it's not the best fit. I also had him keep Incantation -- I think that's a better fit than Virtue for his healing style.

Definitely should have the Livers Need Not Apply feat tree, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Vaarsuvius — Elf Tactician w/Shaman spellcasting (Guild, Dartmuth Secret), Tactician spellcasting, True Mage
Hmmmm. Legend really doesn't do many-element blasting techniques very well, does it? Shaman Spellcasting or a re-flavored Arcane Lore are the two best options. I just had hir learn some Shaman blasting spells via feats, but I don't really think that's enough. The Dartmuth Secret combo is a good idea.

On the other hand, I'm not sold on True Mage. Bag of Tricks seems pretty much completely in line with V's obsession with mastering magic "even better than a common caster."

Belkar — Halfling Barbarian w/Path of Rage, Battle's Tempering, Utter Brute (Guild)
Utter Brute, huh? I didn't really think that was his style. I just kept Path of Destruction along with Rage and Battle's Tempering.

Elan — Human Rogue w/Smiting (Guild), Heroica, Fortune's Friend
Very different from mine. I gave him Esoterica Radica; he's heavy on the happy-go-lucky attitude. I gave him Shaman Spellcasting (with a feat to pick up an illusion spell); a surprising number of its buffs match his magical/song abilities. Finally, I gave him Swashbuckler. I have to admit, though, that Smiting is a very strong match for his Dashing Swordsman abilities. Perhaps I was thinking of the pre-PrC Elan ... or perhaps he needs Full Buy-In.

Xykon: Lich/Elementalist (Fire)/Necromancer
Not bad. I'm a little skeptical about him favoring fire that much over lightning, but I'm more concerned about him lacking Tactician-ish spells such as Resilient Sphere, Greater Teleport, and Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).

Redcloak: Incantation/Shaman Spells/True Mage
Interesting. I might actually argue for Mechanist Savant. I could also argue for Necromancer. (Let's face it, high-level Clerics just have too many abilities ...)

Tsukiko: Shaman Spells/Tactician Spells/Necromancer
Safe.
[/QUOTE]Miko: Smiting/Path of Destruction/Disciple of the Crane[/QUOTE]
Definitely could use Discipline of the Serpent, possibly more than Crane. Shame she would have to choose between Stunning Fist and Weapon Master, though.

Also, Monster in the Dark? (Based on what we do know of him?) Utter Brute is obvious, Earth Elemental seems like a pretty good fit, Water Elemental could be a possibility to represent the darkness itself, and ... hmmm, maybe True Mage for his "Escape" magic?

[JackRackham]

I just realized we've done better than the pathfinder Q&A. That's something, right? On the other hand, actual play on the boards seems to have been really limited.

We could really use help raising awareness, or with PR. Hopefully, having an adventure module in hand will make it easier for you guys to talk about us. I know it's made me feel a lot more comfortable trying to sell people on the game.

Well, everyone I've shown the game to loved it. I ran a one-shot and that went well. I've pretty much decided to use this system for all future one-shots. BUT, there's just not enough there yet to do a full on campaign. Or, at least not enough to beat out 3.5 for my campaign-system. When it's finished, I'm sure things will be different. This is a consensus in my group thus far.

[Doc Roc]

Well, everyone I've shown the game to loved it. I ran a one-shot and that went well. I've pretty much decided to use this system for all future one-shots. BUT, there's just not enough there yet to do a full on campaign. Or, at least not enough to beat out 3.5 for my campaign-system. When it's finished, I'm sure things will be different. This is a consensus in my group thus far.

What would you say is missing?

[gkathellar]

On the other hand, it seems prudent to question whether there's a 1:1 correspondence between D&D levels and Legend levels, at the higher ends of the power spectrum.

I'm assuming there's not a direct correspondence.


Finally, one more general note: OotS doesn't show particularly many magic items, so it's arguable that Full Buy-In would represent most characters better. On the other hand, none of the main Order seems to be particularly ascetic in flavor.

While this is arguable, I feel like fewer magic items (a) robs the party of their distinct D&D flavor and (b) makes powerful weapons like Haley's bow and the Greenhilt family sword less plausible.


He's smart, but I don't see him as having the whole Tactical Insight track. Perhaps just a feat or two along those lines, like Recon or something?

Roy's unmodified Intelligence is better than his Strength, remember. And while it's been noted that he can't use Int for Attack, Damage or AC, I wanted to throw him some kind of bone with that, and we've definitely seen that he's quite a good tactician. Note that I'm not making it perfect, in that I'm ruling out several Knowledge skills.


Oh, she definitely should multiclass into Reign of Arrows instead of Assassin.

Nope. Haley has used sneak attacks with melee weapons on numerous occasions, and more importantly, it's lame for her to shout "Sneak Attack!" if she doesn't actually have sneak attack.


That could work (especially now that he's researching Mass versions of buffs). I gave him Heroica, but it's not the best fit. I also had him keep Incantation -- I think that's a better fit than Virtue for his healing style.

Maybe. I also considered refluffed Mechanist Savant.


On the other hand, I'm not sold on True Mage.

Nor am I. Originally, I was going to give him Runesong Scholar, and I'm still considering that, since it would help me fill out swaths of the spell list that otherwise feel like they're missing — also, we know V is one of the better optimized members of the order (despite his regrettable banned schools), and we know he has Quicken Spell so a swift-action track to go with his standard action spellcasting seems right.


Utter Brute, huh? I didn't really think that was his style. I just kept Path of Destruction along with Rage and Battle's Tempering.

He's only got the track, note, not the class —*but yeah, I think Utter Brute's mechanics seem right at home on him.


Very different from mine.

The way I see it, Fortune's Friend is essential because it actually has his mechanics built in. Smiting is essential because it saves his entire build once he Guilds it it. And Heroica feels like a good fit, but I could probably throw it out for Shaman casting. I'll consider that last one.


Also, Monster in the Dark?

I'm not even touching this one. MitD will have to wait until we actually know something beyond, "wow he's powerful."

[imneuromancer]

Has anyone made a character (and monster) generator yet? From my reading of the system, it feels like the hardest part of GMing would be creating the enemies, and if there was a generator or some type it would make that probelm go away.

Also, is there a resource out yet for "if you want X monster, choose A, B, C tracks", etc.? Again, it would be nice to have some quick examples or references to make prep easier.

[Zejety]

Has anyone made a character (and monster) generator yet? From my reading of the system, it feels like the hardest part of GMing would be creating the enemies, and if there was a generator or some type it would make that probelm go away.

Also, is there a resource out yet for "if you want X monster, choose A, B, C tracks", etc.? Again, it would be nice to have some quick examples or references to make prep easier.

I have actually decided just today to try my hands on a Flash character generator.
But I have my hands rather full there days and it will probably take some time until it is finished.

[Nohwl]

an encounter generator was being made as one of the donation incentives.

[Cieyrin]

Also, is there a resource out yet for "if you want X monster, choose A, B, C tracks", etc.? Again, it would be nice to have some quick examples or references to make prep easier.

That's pretty much the Monster Guide, which will come out sometime in the future.

[Deth Muncher]

Okay, 2/4 goofy characters done, and 3/4 actually thought of. I can't give them away without telling you what the setting for the adventure, so I'll have to wait on one of them to approve this. Once that's done though, I'll post the ideas up here, and shoot the designs to Doc Roc.

[arskyer]

Darnit gkathellar, you buried my question beneath a mass of tOotS theorizing! :smalltongue:

I like your Roy and Haley - the abilities they use fit pretty well into those available in Legend.

I agree that most of the Order would not be Full Buy-In, but Elan and V strike me as strong candidates for the option. I can only remember two magical items used by Elan off the top of my head (rapier and the boots), and nothing but stat or spell-boosters for V (not as important in Legend), while both would benefit enormously from adding an additional track to their repertoires.

The only problem I have with Durkon is I don't see a ready method via which he can "divine might" his way through combat. But I don't really have any suggestions, except maybe Smiting? Or he could have Incantation and use it to buff the attack bonus from Bless, getting something of the same effect. So, Incantation/Bastion/Shaman?


Also, a question about Struggle: I've been treating this ability as if it grants the bonus damage on a successful third attack - that's the way I understood it after the first read through - but now I realize that it can be read to apply to the damage roll of the second attack. Which way is it?

[The Shadowmind]

In the spellcasting section of Shaman it says they gain bonus spellslots for having high Wisdom? Is there a chart or is the standard 3.5 chart used?

[Zejety]

In the spellcasting section of Shaman it says they gain bonus spellslots for having high Wisdom? Is there a chart or is the standard 3.5 chart used?

Check Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells on page 11.

[gkathellar]

Is there a chart or is the standard 3.5 chart used?

This isn't really aimed at you, Shadowmind, but as a general rule for anyone exploring it for the first time: "the standard 3.5 X" is never used. Legend is a separate game with its own rules, despite any similarities to D&D.

[Cieyrin]

This isn't really aimed at you, Shadowmind, but as a general rule for anyone exploring it for the first time: "the standard 3.5 X" is never used. Legend is a separate game with its own rules, despite any similarities to D&D.

We're at least striving for that, though there are relics still here and there that are getting expunged as they're found or at least reported.

[PaxImbrium]

We're at least striving for that, though there are relics still here and there that are getting expunged as they're found or at least reported.

Is there an official channel for reporting bugs/ommissions/whatever? Because the feat "Spectacular beats," deals with improvised weapons, but there doesn't seem to be any other rules in the book covering them. The feat allows monks to use improvised weapons "Without penalty," but never actually describes what the normal penalties for improvised weapon use are.

A small issue, admittedly, but still.

[Mystify]

I was looking at the undead. Each undead races talks about how it satisfies the "devourer" requirement for undead, but such a thing is not mentioned elsewhere. It seems to relate to their consumption ability, but it is unclear.

It is also weird that you don't get the undead's weakness until the second circle. You can be an vampire who is not vulnerable to sunlight because he is too weak?

[Zejety]

I have made up a rough concept for the character generator. Ignore visuals, layout, etc.
This is just for the functionality of the various screens.
Suggestions are welcome.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/Legend%20Character%20Gen.pptx

[Mystify]

Huh, I just noticed something odd.
Bite is a special weapon, whose special property is that it can't be disarmed.

Alright, that makes sense. Until you get to this clause:

"You can choose to use a special weapon with two hands and not benefit from its special property. If you do so, you can treat it as a Main weapon for purposes of calculating damage."

So you can use your bite in two hands, and it becomes disarm-able.

[Madcrafter]

So you can use your bite in two hands, and it becomes disarm-able.

So you attack with a large pair of dentures?

[Cieyrin]

Is there an official channel for reporting bugs/ommissions/whatever?

Right now, this is probably the best place, though jumping into the IRC channel that's linked here and there won't hurt, either, as one of the editors, writers or people in general connected to Rule of Cool is typically around to get errata where it can be seen. I haven't lately, due to RL issues, but there's plenty of friendly faces about to help and just talk in general. :smallsmile:

[Doc Roc]

Has anyone made a character (and monster) generator yet? From my reading of the system, it feels like the hardest part of GMing would be creating the enemies, and if there was a generator or some type it would make that probelm go away.

Also, is there a resource out yet for "if you want X monster, choose A, B, C tracks", etc.? Again, it would be nice to have some quick examples or references to make prep easier.

There's also Mooks. Soon there will be Myriads, and hopefully Operatives.

[Mystify]

Just ran my first legand session!
Within the 2 hour session, I was able to introduce the system to the 5 players, explain the mechanics, and create 5th levels characters for everyone, and play an encounter ( 4 dire wolves). They all though character creation was really easy, and that it would only take 1/4 of the time to make another character.
Everyone loved it, I was easily able to convince them to alter their plans for next week form 4e to legend. One person said that even he thought he would never play a game similar to 3e again, he really liked legend. Another person commented that "3e works really well when you remove the 3e from it".

They also realized that there wasn't that much reason to use a melee weapon. Many abilities, including rage, work equally well at range. The STR KOM smiting paladin was devastating with the musketeer feat and a rifle. I have no clue how you use strength to fire a gun better, but thats what the system seems to say...

[Greenish]

I have no clue how you use strength to fire a gun better, but thats what the system seems to say...You thrust the gun forward while firing, thus imparting extra velocity for the bullet. Obviously. :smallamused:

[Deth Muncher]

You thrust the gun forward while firing, thus imparting extra velocity for the bullet. Obviously. :smallamused:

Or, the more intensely you pull the trigger, the meaner the bullet is. Duh. Didn't they teach you anything in Gun School?

[Flickerdart]

The more STR you have, the bigger the size of your boomstick, of course.

[Doc Roc]

The more raw strength you have, the less recoil effects you, at least at the levels of STROANGNEZZ we're dealing with in Legend. I mean, even STR 16 is getting into what we'd view as preternaturally strong.
With bows, it's more obvious. You're using a higher pull.

[gkathellar]

Here's the first member of the Order of the Stick: the fearless leader. When they're all done, I'll get them all together in one post and delete the cast-offs.

Roy Greenhilt
Human Barbarian, Level 12
Human: +2 Intelligence, +1 Armor Class, +1(+1/8 levels) Athletics
Str 22, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 10
Fort: +17 / Ref: +12 / Will: +15 / Initiative: +0
Armor Class: 30 / HP: 207 / Speed: 50
Melee Range 15 / Close Range 50 / Medium Range 200
Awareness: 24 / Bluff: 24 / Diplomacy: 27 / Intimidate: 22 / Perception: 22

Offense

Greenhilt Sword: +22/+17/+17, 2d6+6+1d6 [Electricity], Crit 18-20

Bull Rush (standard or free 1/attack action): Fortitude/Reflex DC 22, +18 [Precision] damage
Charge (standard): +24 (2d6+6+1d6 [Electricity]+18 [Precision]), AC 28
Defensive Fighting (move): AC 32
Disarm: Reflex DC 22, +18 [Precision] damage
Flurry: +20/+20/+15/+15 (2d6+6+1d6 [Electricity]+18 [Precision])
Trip: Reflex DC 22, +18 [Precision] damage



Skills

Trained: Athletics +20 / Engineering +18 / Geography +18 / History +18 / Intimidate +21 / Medicine +18
Physical: Acrobatics +1 / Larceny +1 / Ride +1 / Stealth +1
Knowledge: Arcana +6 / Nature +6
Social: Bluff +1 / Diplomacy +1 / Perception +3


Feats

Guild Initiation (Knight): You are the founding member of the Order of the Stick, which gives access to the Knight, Utter Brute, Smiting and Shaman spellcasting tracks.
Sinister Sinews: Determine the DC of [Fear] effects by with Strength modifier, instead of Charisma.
Master of Swordplay (And My Axe!): When using a sword, deal an extra 4 damage for each time you have already hit your opponent this encounter.
To Iron Married: Get a critical hit on a to-hit roll of 18, 19 or 20.
The Bitter Dregs: +1 to all d20 rolls.
By Steel Beholden: On a successful critical hit, regain 12 (level) hit points.


Tactical Insight (gained at levels 1, 4, 7, etc.)
All these abilities are accessed via a successful Knowledge check (a move action) to determine information about creatures of a given type for the [Encounter]. Only one check may be made per creature type, and the bonuses gained only apply to that creature type. The bonuses gained apply to the entire party.

Combative Precognition: Gain either +3 to attack or a +3 deflection bonus to AC.
Psychological Warfare: Gain +2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Perception checks, even those made outside of combat.
Precognitive Resistance: Gain +2 to saving throws against abilities used by relevant creatures.
Extra Insight: Apply two Tactical Insight abilities (of your choice) for a successful Knowledge check.


Knight (gained at levels 1, 3, 6, etc.)

Deadly Blades: On a successful combat maneuver, deal +18 (level + KOM) [Precision] damage.
Valiant Challenge: Enemies within 15 feet ([Melee] range) must target you with any melee attacks they make.
Indefatigable: You may spend your move action to gain an extra Attack of Opportunity until the next round, and during this time you can move instantly to anywhere within your [Melee] range before making an Attack of Opportunity.
As the Six Hundred: You may charge twice in a standard action, though she only gains the benefits and penalties of charging once.
Interrupt: Once per [Encounter] while using Indefatigable, negate any one ability used within [Melee] range as an immediate action, including ongoing abilities, which are negated for one round.


Path of Destruction (gained at levels 2, 5, 8, etc.)

Cleave: As a swift action, apply a successful attack roll to a second opponent within [Melee] range. This is a [Bonus] attack.
Whirlwind: As a standard action, make a single attack roll against all enemies in [Melee] range. This may not generate critical hits or [Bonus] attacks.
Disrupting Presence: Enemies using spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities in [Melee] range take 12 (level) damage.
Terrifying Presence: Enemies in [Melee] range must make a DC 22 will save each round to avoid becoming [Shaken]. This ability does not stack with itself. It is [Fear] and [Mind-affecting].


Equipment

Lesser: Map of the Master Strategist: As a full round action, produces a 250 foot map of its owners surroundings.
Lesser: Shield Amulet (Will): +2 Will saves
Lesser: Fury Stone: +2 Strength
Lesser: Black Ankh: +2 Constitution
Greater: Ironmountain Plate: +3 Item bonus to AC, +1 HP/level.
Greater: Worry Beads: +1 trained skill
Relic: Greenhilt Sword (Rolling Thunder): Main weapon, +3 to-hit (item), +2 Intimidate (item), +1d6 [Electricity] damage, free bull rush once/attack action, 1/[Encounter] all enemies in [Close] range make a DC 22 Will save or are [Frightened] for one round.


Consumables

What Someone Else Knew: Acquire training in one skill for the [Scene].
Healing Potion: Restore 60 hit points.
Formal Favor: Gain 1 additional token for a social encounter.


Holy crap is Bitter Dregs ever good. It basically slipped my mind that a +1 to all d20 rolls is a +1 to all d20 rolls. Wish I could've fit it onto my guy for A Very Long Trip. It would've been a perfect fit.

[Doc Roc]

Here's the first member of the Order of the Stick: the fearless leader. When they're all done, I'll get them all together in one post and delete the cast-offs.

Roy Greenhilt
Human Barbarian, Level 12
Human: +2 Intelligence, +1 Armor Class, +1(+1/8 levels) Athletics
Str 22, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 10
Fort: +17 / Ref: +11 / Will: +15 / Initiative: +0
Armor Class: 30 / HP: 207 / Speed: 50
Melee Range 15 / Close Range 50 / Medium Range 200
Awareness: 24 / Bluff: 24 / Diplomacy: 27 / Intimidate: 22 / Perception: 22

Offense

Greenhilt Sword: +22/+17/+17, 2d6+6+1d6 [Electricity], Crit 18-20

Bull Rush (standard or free 1/attack action): Fortitude/Reflex DC 22, +18 [Precision] damage
Charge (standard): +24 (2d6+6+1d6 [Electricity]+18 [Precision]), AC 28
Defensive Fighting (move): AC 32
Disarm: Reflex DC 22, +18 [Precision] damage
Flurry: +20/+20/+15/+15 (2d6+6+1d6 [Electricity]+18 [Precision])
Trip: Reflex DC 22, +18 [Precision] damage



Skills

Trained: Athletics +20 / Engineering +18 / Geography +18 / History +18 / Intimidate +21 / Medicine +18
Physical: Acrobatics +1 / Larceny +1 / Ride +1 / Stealth +1
Knowledge: Arcana +6 / Nature +6
Social: Bluff +1 / Diplomacy +1 / Perception +3


Feats

Guild Initiation (Knight): You are the founding member of the Order of the Stick, which gives access to the Knight, Utter Brute, Smiting and Shaman spellcasting tracks.
Sinister Sinews: Determine the DC of [Fear] effects by with Strength modifier, instead of Charisma.
Master of Swordplay (And My Axe!): When using a sword, deal an extra 4 damage for each time you have already hit your opponent this encounter.
To Iron Married: Get a critical hit on a to-hit roll of 18, 19 or 20.
The Bitter Dregs: +1 to all d20 rolls.
By Steel Beholden: On a successful critical hit, regain 12 (level) hit points.


Tactical Insight (gained at levels 1, 4, 7, etc.)
All these abilities are accessed via a successful Knowledge check (a move action) to determine information about creatures of a given type for the [Encounter]. Only one check may be made per creature type, and the bonuses gained only apply to that creature type. The bonuses gained apply to the entire party.

Combative Precognition: Gain either +3 to attack or a +3 deflection bonus to AC.
Psychological Warfare: Gain +2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Perception checks, even those made outside of combat.
Precognitive Resistance: Gain +2 to saving throws against abilities used by relevant creatures.
Extra Insight: Apply two Tactical Insight abilities (of your choice) for a successful Knowledge check.


Knight (gained at levels 1, 3, 6, etc.)

Deadly Blades: On a successful combat maneuver, deal +18 (level + KOM) [Precision] damage.
Valiant Challenge: Enemies within 15 feet ([Melee] range) must target you with any melee attacks they make.
Indefatigable: You may spend your move action to gain an extra Attack of Opportunity until the next round, and during this time you can move instantly to anywhere within your [Melee] range before making an Attack of Opportunity.
As the Six Hundred: You may charge twice in a standard action, though she only gains the benefits and penalties of charging once.
Interrupt: Once per [Encounter] while using Indefatigable, negate any one ability used within [Melee] range as an immediate action, including ongoing abilities, which are negated for one round.


Path of Destruction (gained at levels 2, 5, 8, etc.)

Cleave: As a swift action, apply a successful attack roll to a second opponent within [Melee] range. This is a [Bonus] attack.
Whirlwind: As a standard action, make a single attack roll against all enemies in [Melee] range. This may not generate critical hits or [Bonus] attacks.
Disrupting Presence: Enemies using spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities in [Melee] range take 12 (level) damage.
Terrifying Presence: Enemies in [Melee] range must make a DC 22 will save each round to avoid becoming [Shaken]. This ability does not stack with itself. It is [Fear] and [Mind-affecting].


Equipment

Lesser: Map of the Master Strategist: As a full round action, produces a 250 foot map of its owners surroundings.
Lesser: Shield Amulet (Will): +2 Will saves
Lesser: Fury Stone: +2 Strength
Lesser: Black Ankh: +2 Constitution
Greater: Ironmountain Plate: +3 Item bonus to AC, +1 HP/level, -1 Reflex
Greater: Worry Beads: +1 trained skill
Relic: Greenhilt Sword (Rolling Thunder): Main weapon, +3 to-hit (item), +2 Intimidate (item), +1d6 [Electricity] damage, free bull rush once/attack action, 1/[Encounter] all enemies in [Close] range make a DC 22 Will save or are [Frightened] for one round.


Consumables

What Someone Else Knew: Acquire training in one skill for the [Scene].
Healing Potion: Restore 60 hit points.
Formal Favor: Gain 1 additional token for a social encounter.


Holy crap is Bitter Dregs ever good. It basically slipped my mind that a +1 to all d20 rolls is a +1 to all d20 rolls. Wish I could've fit it onto my guy for A Very Long Trip. It would've been a perfect fit.

People regularly insist that it is one of our weakest feats. Which is insane. Thanks for building Roy, Gath. It's always incredible to see all the parts in motion like that. I spend so much time building Legend and working on it, I often feel like a watch-maker. I no longer see the timepiece, the capture of seconds and motion. I just see gears.

Path of destruction is hilariously cool with Knight, too. I'm really pleased. It really models the aggressive mobile fighter well.

[gkathellar]

People regularly insist that it is one of our weakest feats. Which is insane.

I think it's probably much better for heavy skill users than for anyone else. +1 to all skills is a huge boon for rogues and tacticians.


Thanks for building Roy, Gath.

It was interesting, because he's definitely the lowest-op of the four Legend characters I've built so far, and it was fun to see how he came together in a lot of places despite that.

One of the things I keep being shocked by when I build characters without Full Buy-In is how much fun I have figuring out magic items. I thought I hated magic items in 3.5, but it turns out what I really hated was (a) magic items being necessary and boring, and (b) wealth-by-level. The incorporation of magic item access into character level really makes them much more engaging, especially at the higher tiers when they come with cool powers. It actually makes you feel like they're a part of you character, as opposed to being part of your numbers.

One thing I noticed in doing so was that you can't switch the "priority" of tracks that come from your own class. I wanted Path of Destruction to be his 1/3 track, Knight to be his 1/4, and Tactical Insight to be his 2/5 — but because PoD comes from his native barbarian class, I couldn't do that. I'm not sure that's enough of an issue to be worthy of a fix, but I thought I might call it to your attention.


I spend so much time building Legend and working on it, I often feel like a watch-maker. I no longer see the timepiece, the capture of seconds and motion. I just see gears.

Must ... resist urge to form ... teleological argument ... for the existence of DocRoc.

[Doc Roc]

I think it's probably much better for heavy skill users than for anyone else. +1 to all skills is a huge boon for rogues and tacticians.

On the other hand, even our less skill-driven characters have some pretty powerful options for the skills they are trained with.

[Mystify]

I keep getting the impression that there are things mentioned in the rules that haven't actually been developed yet. You then try to look up what it means, and its not there. To use computer science terminology, they are null pointers. It is frustrating. What I would prefer is if you could have the terms there with a note "TBD" or something similar. That makes it clear that its something that will be added later, and not just an erroneous entry. It would make it feel more like a work in progress than an incomplete system, if that distinction makes sense.

You should have such a list anyways, whether or not its published, so you can keep track of all these loose ends in the system and not forget them amongst everything you do.

[Doc Roc]

I keep getting the impression that there are things mentioned in the rules that haven't actually been developed yet. You then try to look up what it means, and its not there. To use computer science terminology, they are null pointers. It is frustrating. What I would prefer is if you could have the terms there with a note "TBD" or something similar. That makes it clear that its something that will be added later, and not just an erroneous entry. It would make it feel more like a work in progress than an incomplete system, if that distinction makes sense.

You should have such a list anyways, whether or not its published, so you can keep track of all these loose ends in the system and not forget them amongst everything you do.

So you'd prefer safe handling of dangling pointers? Me too.

If you find something that makes you feel this way, post it here.

In other news, I thiiiiiiiiiink I've got the skill DCs for OSS under control.

[Mystify]

So you'd prefer safe handling of dangling pointers? Me too.

If you find something that makes you feel this way, post it here.

Ok, here is a list of the things I came across:

sizes beyond the normal 3
5-foot steps
grappled condition
undead devourer requirements
natural weapons(some are special weapons that can't be disarmed, others are main weapons)


and some normal english phrases that are unfortunately ambiguous:
move through a square(is it into, out of, both?)
hit twice in a row (I've specified a long list of ambiguities associated with this)

I'll also add in the following ambiguities:
how "part of a move" interacts with other "part of a move" actions
How vigilante's Signature Ride interacts with the mount skill(I would really like them to combine)

Also, a small barbarian with powerful rage is kind of weird. It says you count as 1 size category larger, and gives you +5ft reach... but a small-> medium transition does not normally give that reach increase.

[gkathellar]

Question: what does "sources of bonus damage" constitute in the case of a Blaze Bolter? Specifically, which of the following would or would not apply: KOM, Coldfire Ingot, Sneak Attack?

Also, would there be any unforeseen problems if I switched the damage from [Fire] to [Cold]?

[Deth Muncher]

In other news, I thiiiiiiiiiink I've got the skill DCs for OSS under control.

Yay! Can you send them to me so I can finish the adventure sometime soon hopefully?

[Doc Roc]

Yay! Can you send them to me so I can finish the adventure sometime soon hopefully?

Blurgh. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_tHRE-JCALqC3jN8vi3Pb5oU_OY0bksexwpR6PtrWD0/edit) I obey. Blurgh.


Question: what does "sources of bonus damage" constitute in the case of a Blaze Bolter? Specifically, which of the following would or would not apply: KOM, Coldfire Ingot, Sneak Attack?

Also, would there be any unforeseen problems if I switched the damage from [Fire] to [Cold]?

Blaze Bolters use all-natural organic fair trade damage. During processing, absolutely no additives are mixed in. Fresh-tasting damage in every clip.

It does however have all the natural health risks. Changing it to [Cold] damage won't seriously alter this, but Cold Bolters should be kept carefully stored and out of reach, as they can be seriously harmful to Fire Elementals.

[gkathellar]

Blaze Bolters use all-natural organic fair trade damage. During processing, absolutely no additives are mixed in. Fresh-tasting damage in every clip.

I see you've figured out where I'm going with this. :smallbiggrin:

As to the sources of damage I listed, though? Would/could they apply? I think you're suggesting they wouldn't, but a slightly more straightforward answer would be useful for my exhausted brain.

[Doc Roc]

I see you've figured out where I'm going with this. :smallbiggrin:

As to the sources of damage I listed, though? Would/could they apply? I think you're suggesting they wouldn't, but a slightly more straightforward answer would be useful for my exhausted brain.

They are not currently intended to apply. Please enjoy responsibly.

[gkathellar]

Here's #2 of the Order of the Stick: the #2!

Haley Starshine
Human Rogue, Level 12
Human: +2 Dexterity, +1 Attack, +1(+1/8 levels) Bluff
Str 10, Dex 26 (KOM), Con 20 (KDM), Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 18
Fort: +11 / Ref: +21 / Will: +14 / Initiative: +8
Armor Class: 25 / HP: 169 / Speed: 40 / Fast Healing: 2
Melee Range 15 / Close Range 50 / Medium Range 200
Awareness: 23 / Bluff: 23 / Diplomacy: 23 / Intimidate: 26 / Perception: 26

Offense

Minty Fresh: +20/+15, 2d6+8+7 [Cold], Crit 16-20, [Medium] range, [Magnum].
Sneak Attack: +24/+19, 2d6+8+7 [Cold]+4d6 [Precision], Crit 16-20, [Medium] range, [Magnum], ignore concealment.



Skills

Trained: Acrobatics +22 / Athletics +12 / Bluff +18 / Diplomacy +16 / Larceny +20 / Perception +13 / Stealth +20
Physical: Ride +8
Knowledge: Arcana +1 / Engineering +1 / Geography +1 / History +1 / Medicine +1 / Nature +1
Social: Intimidate +4


Feats

Mountain Scout: Ignore difficult terrain for movement range. +2 Acrobatics.
To Iron Married + In Mithril Reborn: Get a critical hit on a to-hit roll of 16, 17, 18, 19 or 20.
Wake: 2/round, when you move through a square adjacent to an enemy, they take 8 (KOM) damage)
A Song of Arrows: 3/[Encounter], make a full attack as an immediate action.
By Steel Beholden: On a successful critical hit, regain 12 (level) hit points.
Deft Strike: As a swift action, you can make a Larceny check against an opponent, DC (10+1/2 level+their Wis modifier). If you succeed, ignore 12 (level) Damage Reduction for 1 round.


Esoterica Radica (gained at levels 1, 3, 6, etc.)

Playing It Right: You may take 10 on Bluff and Larceny checks regardless of the circumstances.
When to Hold: 3/[Encounter] (level/4), as an immediate action, gain a +4 (1+level/4) to your choice of AC or any one saving throw until the beginning of your next turn.
When to Fold: 3/[Encounter] (level/4), as a swift action, gain an extra move action.
When to Cheat: 1/[Encounter], if your HP would be reduced below zero, you may set it to 12 (level) as an immediate action instead.
When to Run: 2/[Encounter], as an immediate action, move up to your base speed.


Assassin (gained at levels 1, 4, 7, etc.)

Sneak Attack: Any time that you successfully attack a [Flat-footed], [Shaken], [Frightened], or [Panicked] target, you deal 4d6 (Circles) [Precision] damage.
Slayer's Sense: Ignore [Concealed] and [Fully Concealed] (but not the Stealth skill) when attacking an enemy you have hit with a Sneak Attack this encounter.
Blood Calls to Blade: You gain a +4 to attack rolls that Sneak Attack applies to.
Menacing Presence: Any enemy who ends their turn within 5 ft of someone you have successfully damaged with Sneak Attack in the past minute is [Shaken] until the beginning of their next turn.


Acrobatic Adept (gained at levels 2, 5, 8, etc.)

Just That Quick: 1/round, as an immediate action, you may use the higher of a Reflex save or your AC against a single attack.
Evasion: 1/[Encounter], on a successful save against a "Reflex half" effect, you suffer no effect.
On Your Toes: You gain a +3 to Reflex saves and do not fail them on a natural 1.
Don't Stop Me Now: You are immune to effects with the [Binding] descriptor.


Equipment

Mundane: Light Armor: +1 AC
Lesser: Cloak of the Endless Traveler: Create foot, water and shelter.
Lesser: Grim Fragment: +2 Charisma.
Lesser: Black Ankh: +2 Constitution.
Lesser: Quicksilver Brooch: +2 Dexterity.
Greater: Iron Tactica: Gain the In Mithril Reborn feat.
Greater: Coldfire Ingot: +7 [Cold] damage (2+Con modifier) damage on all attacks.
Relic: Minty Fresh (Ghostly Rifle, switched to Longbow): +3 to-hit (item), Magnum, no reload action. When firing a shot from Minty Fresh, you may choose to delay the affect 1-3 rounds, in which case it gains a +1 to attack and hits at the beginning of your turn 1-3 rounds later.


Consumables

Healing Potion: Restore 60 hit points.
Friends in Low Places: Gain two tokens in a social encounter against criminals.
Rusted Ring: Teleport up to 550 feet.


Haley's build is much more standard fare than Roy's — she's a pretty typical rogue, and Assassin/Acrobatic adept approximate that pretty much exactly. She's a good showcase of how well character can function without any multiclassing at all, even though that's been our focus so far.

You'll notice that Haley's bow is basically a Ghostly Rifle. Since they deal the same base damage and have the same reload time, I thought this was fair. I know that normally she uses a shortbow, but the shortbow feat's dispelling property didn't seem to fit.

Also, I have equipment recommendations for her in levels to come: Haley will wants a True Symbol and a suit of Chameleon Skin armor.

[Cieyrin]

Haley as a 3.5 rogue doesn't have proficiency with a longbow, just shortbows, so that's the only reason she uses one over a longbow.

[gkathellar]

Haley as a 3.5 rogue doesn't have proficiency with a longbow, just shortbows, so that's the only reason she uses one over a longbow.

I'm aware, but I'm making a general effort stick to the original characters, so I felt such a noticeable change deserved at least a little explanation.

Next up: Belkar!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Question: what does "sources of bonus damage" constitute in the case of a Blaze Bolter? Specifically, which of the following would or would not apply: KOM, Coldfire Ingot, Sneak Attack?

Also, would there be any unforeseen problems if I switched the damage from [Fire] to [Cold]?

Heresy! Only the cleansing purity of flame can begin to approach the will of the Emperor! Purge the infidel!

Actually, that does give me an idea... I just realized how easy it would actually be to convert at least some of WH40k into Legend.

Orks and Nids, for example. Most of them could be duplicated with the Grunt package. For the 'nids, leaders can be Paladins, full buy in of course, with Knowing/Bastion/Shaman spells/Tactician spells, for mass buffing of tons of mooks, or Tactician with full buy in for the Bastion track. Tons of buffs to all your allies is how the 'nids work. And it works out fairly well in Legend.

[Doc Roc]

Heresy! Only the cleansing purity of flame can begin to approach the will of the Emperor! Purge the infidel!

Actually, that does give me an idea... I just realized how easy it would actually be to convert at least some of WH40k into Legend.

Orks and Nids, for example. Most of them could be duplicated with the Grunt package. For the 'nids, leaders can be Paladins, full buy in of course, with Knowing/Bastion/Shaman spells/Tactician spells, for mass buffing of tons of mooks, or Tactician with full buy in for the Bastion track. Tons of buffs to all your allies is how the 'nids work. And it works out fairly well in Legend.

It's certainly not plausible that someone planned this. We're going to be releasing a powered armor track soon, in an unrelated note. Like, this weekend. How would you guys like to playtest some stuff?

[Cieyrin]

It's certainly not plausible that someone planned this. We're going to be releasing a powered armor track soon, in an unrelated note. Like, this weekend. How would you guys like to playtest some stuff?

*glee*

So we're talking powered armor and not full out mecha, yeah? Like the soldiers in Alien and not the Power Lifter?

[Mystify]

It's certainly not plausible that someone planned this. We're going to be releasing a powered armor track soon, in an unrelated note. Like, this weekend. How would you guys like to playtest some stuff?

That is music to my ears.

[Doc Roc]

Somewhere between spesch marins* and elementals.


*A place in the bay area.

[gkathellar]

It makes sense to follow up the #2 in the OotS with the comic's #2 in being a disrespectful psychopath (beaten out only by Xykon).

Belkar Bitterleaf
Halfling Barbarian, Level 12, Small Size
Str 14, Dex 24 (KOM), Con 22 (KDM), Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
Fort: +17 / Ref: +13 (+15 Rage) / Will: +15 (+17 Rage) / Initiative: +13
Armor Class: 33 (31 Rage) / HP: 204 / Speed: 55 / Fast Healing: 6
Melee Range 20 / Close Range 50 / Medium Range 200
Awareness: 22 / Bluff: 22 / Diplomacy: 22 / Intimidate: 26 / Perception: 26

Offense

Simple Knife: +24/+19/+19 (ignore item bonuses to AC), 1d6+7 (+13 total against Medium size and larger), Crit 16-20, [Close] range
Raging: +27/+27/+22/+22 (ignore item bonuses to AC), 1d6+11 (+17 total against Medium size and larger), Crit 16-20, [Close] range


Skills

Trained: Acrobatics +19 / Athletics +14 / Bluff +16 / Intimidate +16 / Stealth +19
Physical: Larceny +7 / Ride +7
Knowledge: Arcana +0 / Engineering +0 / Geography +0 / History +0 / Medicine +0 / Nature +0
Social: Diplomacy +4 / Perception +0


Feats

Elven War Dance
To Iron Married + In Mithril Reborn: Your attack is a critical hit on a roll of 16, 17, 18, 19 or 20.
Swift-hand Throw: Your magical thrown weapons return instantly to your hand, and you may draw a thrown weapon after throwing one as a free action. Your critical hits with thrown weapons inflict [On fire].
This Is A Knife: Your critical hits with a knife inflict 2 points of Con damage, to a maximum of 8 from this effect.
By Steel Beholden: On a critical hit, you regain 12 (level) hit points.
The Bigger They Are: +6 (level/2) damage on attacks against creatures of Medium size or larger.


Battle's Tempering (gained at levels 1, 3, 6, etc.)

Better Quick Than Dead: Gain a +6 (level/2) bonus to Initiative checks.
Dive For Cover: 1/[Encounter], ignore a "Reflex half" effect on a successful saving throw.
For Ire: Gain Fast Healing 6 (KDM).
Into the Trees: As a move action, meld into plants, earth or stone for up to five rounds. You cannot act in this state. You may exit as a move action. If the object is destroyed or this duration expires, you are ejected. After leaving, you cannot use Into the Trees for 10 rounds.
It Has Been an Honor: Allies within 15 feet ignore Fortitude partial and Will partial effects on a successful save.


Path of Rage (gained at levels 1, 4, 7, etc.)

Rage: As a swift action, begin a rage that lasts up to 10 rounds. After your rage ends, you are [Fatigued] for rounds equal to its duration. You may not rage while [Fatigued]. During rage, you gain a number of fury bonuses. Listed are the bonuses from Rage, Powerful Rage, and Greater Rage, modified by the Elven War Dance feat.
+4 (circles) to attack and damage rolls.
One extra attack per round at your highest attack bonus.
+2 to Reflex and Will saves.
48 temporary hit points (level*4).
Intimidating Rage: 1/[Encounter], when your rage begins, you may attempt to Intimidate an opponent within 30 feet as a free action. If you succeed, they are [Shaken] for the [Encounter].
Greater Rage (Hurling Charge): If you Charge while raging, you can make one thrown weapon attack at any point during your charge.

Utter Brute (gained at levels 2, 5, 8, etc.)

Uncivilized (Defender): Your unarmed attacks are affected by Weaponized, and are [Special], [Reach] weapons. In addition, you gain a +4 (circles) Fury/Item bonus to AC.
Unforgiving: As you die, you may take a standard action. You’re still dead, so healing won’t help you, and you can’t use abilities to resurrect yourself if you opt to activate Unforgiving. Triggered abilities with no action cost may be used instead of the standard action.
Unrelenting: Regardless of effects that prevent movement, you move 5 feet at the beginning and again at the end of your turn with no action cost.
Unnatural Skirmisher: +1 fury bonus to attack rolls, fortitude saves and HP per level. +15 foot fury bonus to movement speed. +5 foot fury bonus to [Melee] reach.


Equipment

Lesser: Broken Ring: 1/[Scene] as a standard action, take 15 damage and become invisible until the end of your next turn.
Lesser: Grim Fragment: +2 Charisma.
Lesser: Black Ankh: +2 Constitution.
Lesser: Quicksilver Brooch: +2 Dexterity.
Greater: Shojo's Kitty (Stone Fist): As a swift action usable every other round, choose two opponents within 70 feet. They have their maximum HP reduced by 24 for 3 rounds.
Greater: Iron Tactica: You gain In Mithril Reborn as a bonus combat feat.
Relic: Simple Knife: +3 to-hit (item), ignore all armor bonuses to AC.


Consumables

Healing Potion: Restore 60 hit points.
Friends in Low Places: Gain two tokens in a social encounter against criminals.
Intricate Headgear: Gain Tremorsense 30 for the [Encounter]'s duration.


Wow, that was easy to build. Belkar's a crit-fisher and a natural Power Attack/Flurry user due to his good to-hit and his ability to ignore item bonuses to AC. I wanted a bloody-minded little jerk, and I got one.

And yes, I did model his cat with Stone Fist, and yes, I am completely unapologetic. That cat is awesome.

[Draz74]

And yes, I did model his cat with Stone Fist, and yes, I am completely unapologetic. That cat is awesome.

I approve of this bit of refluffing. :smallsmile: Good idea, sir.

On the other hand, I have a few nitpicks:

I'll understand if you keep modeling Haley's weapon with a firearm. I've done the same thing in my Legend: Red Hand of Doom conversion. But for the record, she does normally use a Longbow, not a Shortbow. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html) Must have spent a feat on it.

Also, in the comic she definitely has magic armor. Although admittedly we weren't sure about that until after the end of Don't Split the Party.

On Roy, Ironmountain Plate shouldn't reduce Reflex by -1. Magic armor never carries such a penalty, only mundane armor.

Belkar carrying a Charisma boost item? :smallconfused: I fail to see the justification either fluff-wise or mechanically.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's certainly not plausible that someone planned this. We're going to be releasing a powered armor track soon, in an unrelated note. Like, this weekend. How would you guys like to playtest some stuff?

Hell yea...

FOR THE EMPRAH!

[gkathellar]

Also, in the comic she definitely has magic armor. Although admittedly we weren't sure about that until after the end of Don't Split the Party.

There's no magic light armor before Chameleon skin. I'll modify a whole bunch of these guys' item picks when we get the magic item creation rules.


On Roy, Ironmountain Plate shouldn't reduce Reflex by -1. Magic armor never carries such a penalty, only mundane armor.

Will fix.


Belkar carrying a Charisma boost item? :smallconfused: I fail to see the justification either fluff-wise or mechanically.

It was either Charisma or Wisdom, and we a) know his wisdom is bad, b) know Belkar's quite charismatic when it comes to people who haven't concluded he's a horrible little terror (like the girl from the thieves' guild). Even then, he's pretty intimidating. I fail to see the problem.

[Doc Roc]

And yes, I did model his cat with Stone Fist, and yes, I am completely unapologetic. That cat is awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BasUzKedLt8&feature=related

[JackRackham]

What would you say is missing?
I'm sorry for the slow response, but mostly (at the time, almost a month ago) we still felt like some of the rules were written in pencil, and we really wanted to see a Monster Manual, mundane items, to a lesser extant rules for creating magic items, a couple more class/track options (one of my friends was disappointed that the melee-types were religious, naturey, or a barbarian. He was hoping to play a soldier-of-fortune type. I pointed him to ranger with the swashbuckler track and he was fairly satisfied, but...). He mentioned that a melee type with less specific or built-in fluff would be nice (not sure if I agree or not)..

Mostly for me is the monster manual and some of the supplementary rules. I like to make much of my own stff anyway, but making every monster, critter, etc they encounter from scratch is a litttle much, moreover some of what I came up with felt pretty cobbled together (a standard wolf, for example) - to me, not necessarily to them - due to the need to mix & match player tracks and racial tracks in monster creation. I'm also concerned at how transparently similar many of the enemies will end up being with the current number of tracks.

Bottom line: For now, there are so many options in 3.5 that one can typically do exactly what one wants with minimal house-ruling. With Legend, at the time I ran it, I felt like I was houseruling more and approximating things, rather than having them, specifically.

[demigodus]

The STR KOM smiting paladin was devastating with the musketeer feat and a rifle. I have no clue how you use strength to fire a gun better, but thats what the system seems to say...

Try Demon Paladin with smiting. Charisma is your KOM, so the prettier you are, the more damage your bullets do. I guess you charm the bullets into flying faster or something?

Anyways, I have a question about the Demon race.

For the claws you get at circle one, aside from being non-disarmable, do they get none of the special weapon properties (so, no reach, can't use with a shield, etc.)? If so, I'm reading them as a crappier main weapons. Is there something I'm missing? Also, can they benefit from the blacksmith Iconic feat, or be turned into magical weapons to give extra bonuses to attack?

Do the knuckleduster damage increase stack with the monk track that lets you apply your unarmed damage to a weapon of your choice? So if I have that track and a knuckleduster, can I make my longsword hurt like a main weapon while holding a shield in my other hand?

[Tenno Seremel]

He mentioned that a melee type with less specific or built-in fluff would be nice (not sure if I agree or not).
You are fighter you get bonus feats.

[Doc Roc]

You are fighter you get bonus feats.

We found that until 12th level, bonus feats were..... problematic due to some super powerful builds. Try Knight instead.

http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Order-of-the-Black-Dragon.pdf

[Lagren]

Harry Dresden (As of Small Favor)

Level 10 Human Shaman (Fire Elemental, Just Blade (Shaman's Path), Shaman Casting)


Defenses:
HP: 110
AC:
Without Just Blade: 28 [10+ 6 (KDM) + 7 (BAB)+ 4 (Duster) +1 (Human)]
With Just Blade: 31 [10+ 6 (KDM) + 10 (BAB) + 4 (Duster) +1 (Human)]
Fort Save Modifier: +12 [8+2+2 (Shield Bracelet)]
Reflex Save Modifier: +9 [5+2+2 (Shield Bracelet)]
Will Save Modifier: +16 [8+6+2 (Shield Bracelet)]

Abilities:
Str 12
Con 14
Dex 10
Int 14
Wis 22 (+2 from Margaret Lefay's Silver Pentacle Amulet)
Cha 22 (+2 from Margaret Lefay's Silver Pentacle Amulet) (+2 Human)

Skills:
Know: Arcana +14 (+2 Human)
Know: History +12
Know: Geography (Notwithstanding his misplacing parking lots) +12
Larceny +10
Athletics +11
Perception +16

Just Blade:
Grim Heritor SU: As a swift action, or part of another swift action, Harry may draw his staff. This weapon is treated as a normal weapon of its type. While Harry's Staff is drawn, he counts as having a Good Base Attack Bonus.

Ventas Servitas (Mental Thrust) SU: As a move action, a single opponent within [Close] range must make a reflex save against DC 21 or be in a direction of Harry's choosing. If they would pass through the square he occupies, they provoke an attack of opportunity before passing on their less than merry way.

[B]3rd Circle – Mystic Focus SU: The burgeoning power of Harry's art allows him to spend a swift action and channel any one spell-like ability he possesses through his staff, converting it into a single target effect that is added to the next successful attack he makes. Imbuing counts as a use of the ability imbued, only one charge can be held at a time, and the charge dissipates after a single hit. While his staff holds a spell-like ability as a charge, he gains a 20% [Miss chance] against all attacks made against him.

Fire Elementalist

1st Circle – Elemental Burst: At will, Harry can summon a burst of fire targeting a single 5-foot square within [Close] range. It does 10d6+6 fire damage, and allows a DC 21 reflex save for half damage.

2nd Circle – Forced Vulnerability: Harry can strike an enemy within [Medium] range with a bolt of fire that makes it more vulnerable to further attacks. This bolt does 10d6 fire damage per level, allowing a Reflex save for half damage. Additionally, if Harry's target fails the Reflex save, it gains [Vulnerability] to [Fire] until the end of his next turn. This condition does not stack.

Elemental Resistance: Harry gains [Resistance] to [Fire]. Ar 16th level, he will gain [Immunity] to [Fire]. This ability is passive, not activated.

3rd Circle – Elemental Ball: Harry can fire a baseball-sized bit of fire at a specific location within [Long] range. When it reaches that location, or if it hits an obstruction, it detonates in a 20-foot-radius explosion, doing 10d6 damage. If he tries to aim the ball through a small enclosure (size Small or lower), he must make a ranged attack against an AC of 10 + the size modifier of the enclosure. Any creature affected is entitled to a DC 21 Reflex save for half damage. Creatures who fail the Reflex save are hurled to the outside edge of the effect.

Elemental Bolt: Harry can also fire a line of fire at a specific location within [Medium] range. The line is 5 ft wide, does 20d4 damage to all creatures in the area, and continues until it reaches the limit of [Medium] range or strikes an obstruction (such as a solid wall). The line deals damage to the obstruction and, if that damage is sufficient to break through the obstruction, continues as normal. Any creature affected is entitled to a DC 21 Reflex save for half damage. Creatures who fail the Reflex save become [Prone].

Shaman Spells:
The DC for all of Harry's Shaman spells is 21. He knows 10 spells:

1st Circle: (5/Scene)
Endure Elements
Bless/Bane

2nd Circle: (5/Scene)
Resist Elements/Elemental Vulnerablilty
Flame Blade

3rd Circle: (4/Scene)
Dispel Magic
Call Lightning
Searing Light
Repelling Ward

4th Circle: (3/Scene)
Flame Strike
Stoneskin

Feats:
My Name is War
Mouthy (Livers Need Not Apply) Whenever he mouths off as a move action, Harry regains 10d4 hit points. He can have up to four wisecracks stored in his brain at any time; should he have an open slot, he may make up a new one as a move action.
Simply Smashing (Harry is good at smacking things with his staff when the situation calls for it.)
Kensei (But mainly he uses it as a defensive weapon and channel.)

Items:
Harry's Revolver (Holdout Pistol)
Harry's Duster (Relic Armor)
The Sight (Here a Greater item, specifically a pair of Useful Goggles functioning as a Place of Power.)
Blasting Rod (Greater; reflavored Blaze Bolter)
Shield Bracelet (Lesser; reflavored Shield Amulet)
Margaret Lefay's Silver Pentacle Amulet (Two Lessers as a single item, which takes up two slots; original lessers are a Grim Fragment and an Oakstone Shard.)

Consumables:
What Someone Else Knew (Specifically, what Bob knew.)
Friends in Low Places (Specifically, Gentleman Johnny Marcone.)
Illusionary Terrain (Because while Harry is bad at veils, he can still do them on occasion.)


I still have some tweaking to do, but here's an initial build of Harry.

[Chambers]

How does one determine what Track(s) a Guild offers?

[Tenno Seremel]

We found that until 12th level, bonus feats were..... problematic due to some super powerful builds.
Even with level limits they have? Fascinating.

[Mystify]

Try Demon Paladin with smiting. Charisma is your KOM, so the prettier you are, the more damage your bullets do. I guess you charm the bullets into flying faster or something?

I interpret that as magically charging the bullet with energy. If you go with the 3.5 fluff of smiting (since legend doesn't seem to offer any), you are channeling holy energy into your attack. With demon, its probably unholy energy, but the mechanic is the same. Charisma is your force of personality, so the more charisma you have the more unholy energy you can imbue. Even your basic, non smiting attacks could be doing that, just to a lesser extent than a smiting paladin.

[gkathellar]

Next up ... the hardest member of the Order to get right!

Also, you guys still need to fix elves. Seriously, they suck, their only trick is taking Elven War Dance on a build without Rage to get dexterity as their KOM.

Vaarsuvius
Elf Sage, Level 12
Str 10, Dex 22 (KDM), Con 14, Int 24 (KOM), Wis 20, Cha 10
Fort: +12 / Ref: +13 / Will: +15 / Initiative: +6
Armor Class: 26 / HP: 194 / Speed: 45
Melee Range 15 / Close Range 50 / Medium Range 200
Awareness: 27 / Bluff: 27 / Diplomacy: 29 / Intimidate: 22 / Perception: 22

Offense




Skills

Trained: Arcana +19 / Engineering +19 / Geography +19 / History +19 / Medicine +19 / Nature +21
Physical: Acrobatics +6 / Athletics +0 / Larceny +6 / Ride +6 / Stealth +6
Social: Bluff +0 / Diplomacy +0 / Intimidate +0 / Perception +5


Feats

Dartmuth Secret: You use Arcana in place of Athletics to determine your move speed bonus, and your Intelligence modifier in place of your Constitution and Wisdom modifiers to determine HP/level and variables related to Shaman spellcasting. You can leave a patch of rust on metal you touch with a standard action, and look through this rust as if it were a clairvoyant window while within 60 feet of it.
Guild Initiation (Shaman spellcasting)
Elemental Specialization: You deal 12 additional damage when you cast a spell that deals elemental damage.
Rune Magic: With 10 minutes of work and the expenditure of a spell slot of the same level, you may create a trap based on an offensive spell you know. This trap fires once, and has a detect/disarm DC of 22 (10+level). When an enemy passes within 10 feet of the trap or it is moved more than 10 feet, it triggers, firing the spell. You may have two traps active at any given time.
You Will Fall: Effects that would cause an opponent within 60 ft to recover at least 2 HP (including Fast Healing) instead cause that opponent to recover one less point. This stacks with up to five instances of the same feat, but can never reduce healing below 1.
Arcane Engineer: 1/[Scene], render a single Rune trap portable for the duration of that [Scene].


Tactician Spellcasting (gained at levels 1, 3, 6, etc.)
All spells have a DC of 23 (10+level/2+Int modifier).

1st Circle (7 slots/scene): Magic Missile, Silent Image, Entangle
2nd Circle (7 slots/scene): Invisibility/Silence, See Invisibility
3rd Circle (7 slots/scene): Fly, Slow, Haste
4th Circle (5 slots/scene): Freedom of Movement, Scrying, Greater Invisibility
5th Circle (3 slots/scene): Feeblemind


Arcane Lore (gained at levels 1, 4, 7, etc.)

Black Tidings: As a standard action, you invoke one of the following two effects
Dread Wave: Deal your choice of 12d4+7 (level*d4+KOM) [Cold] or [Negative] damage to all creatures within a 30 foot long by 30 foot wide cone stemming from you. They must also make a DC 23 (10+level/2+KOM) Will save or be [Shaken] for one round.
Hammerfall: All creatures within 10 foot cube that you have line of sight to within 280 feet suffer your choice of 12d6+7 (level*d6+KOM) [Fire] or physical damage. They can make a DC 23 (10+level/2+KOM) reflex save for half damage.
Canto (Grey Hymn): For every 10 damage dealt to an enemy by Black Tidings, an ally within 100 feet of you may move 5 feet.
With a Word: Whenever you use Black Tidings, you may teleport up to 15 feet to a square within line of sight, with no action cost.
Verso: Whenever you use Black Tidings, select one opponent who failed the associated save. This opponent is for one round.

[B]Shaman Spellcasting (gained at levels 2, 5, 8, etc.)
All spells have a DC of 23 (10+level/2+Int modifier).

1st Circle (7 slots/scene): Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, Bless/Bane
2nd Circle (7 slots/scene): Status, Resist Elements, Remove Paralysis/Hold Person
3rd Circle (7 slots/scene): Call Lightning, Poison, Dispel Magic
4th Circle (5 slots/scene): Flame Strike, Stoneskin, Dimensional Anchor
5th Circle (3 slots/scene): N/A — These slots may only be used to cast spells of a lower circle.


Equipment

Mundane: Light Armor: +1 AC
Lesser: Obsidian Ring: +2 Intelligence.
Lesser: Oakstone Shard: +2 Wisdom.
Lesser: Black Ankh: +2 Constitution.
Lesser: Quicksilver Brooch: +2 Dexterity.
Greater: Useful Goggles: As a swift action, you can switch between Ghostwise Sight 20, Darkvision, or Arcane Sight (as the spell).
Greater: Feather Fall (Endless Pit): You don't take falling damage.
Magister's Staff: 1/[Scene], at the start of the [Scene], switch a spell you know for another spell of the same circle on the same spell list. You may only switch one spell at a time. In addition, you gain 21 charges at the beginning of each [Quest], to a maximum of 42 charges, and may use charges to cast spells without expending spells/[Scene] at a rate of 1 charge/circle.


Consumables

Hollow Horn: As an immediate action, increase a spell's save DC by 2.
Spirit's Shielding: 1/[Encounter] for the rest of the [Scene], block one ranged attack against you
Illusory Terrain: Allies with 15 feet of you gain a 50% miss chance for two rounds.


Wow that was way faster than I thought it would be.

So I made some potentially questionable calls here. A lot of them, actually, and this is the character I'm most likely to go back and change (possibly by adding Full Buy-In ... I'm not confident that Vaarsuvius' items suit him at all). But major modifications will probably have to wait until the last two members of the Order are done.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BasUzKedLt8&feature=related

I'm having difficulty thinking of a better present than Jonathan Coulton.

[JackRackham]

I definitely agree that the fighter is something you don't want to port over mechanically. He was just looking for a full-BAB chassis that didn't come with built-in fluff (this is before the Knight was released, as well). Knowing him, he'd prefer a tactical, non-magical melee fighting style, again with little built-in fluff.

[Mystify]

Oh yeah, another point of ambiguity I wanted to bring up:
Does a charge count as "spending as standard action to make a single attack"? Because it is a standard action, and it is a single attack, but its not a normal attack option?
I'd be inclined to allow it, simply because the swashbuckler is based on maneuverability, and being able to charge->move->once more! would grant them that maneuverability without requiring them to start within reach of an opponent.

[gkathellar]

I definitely agree that the fighter is something you don't want to port over mechanically. He was just looking for a full-BAB chassis that didn't come with built-in fluff (this is before the Knight was released, as well). Knowing him, he'd prefer a tactical, non-magical melee fighting style, again with little built-in fluff.

Suggestion for your player: Ranger w/ Knight/Battle's Tempering/Path of Destruction.

[demigodus]

Oh yeah, another point of ambiguity I wanted to bring up:
Does a charge count as "spending as standard action to make a single attack"? Because it is a standard action, and it is a single attack, but its not a normal attack option?
I'd be inclined to allow it, simply because the swashbuckler is based on maneuverability, and being able to charge->move->once more! would grant them that maneuverability without requiring them to start within reach of an opponent.

you are spending a standard action, and getting a single attack from it. So, should be so, yes.

[Mystify]

I just made a fun build.

Without going into all the minutia:

Sonic
refluffed elemental pony race
discipline of the crane/esoterica radica/fire elemental/air elemental
skills: atheletics, ride, acrobatics

feats:
breakneck pace
exit stage left
recon
ruinous charge
livers need not apply
spritit strength
wake

items:
fury stone, grim fragement, true symbol

legendary abilities:
mr atlas

mount specs:
Shoes:
bouyant, speed boost, turbo, swift
(I figured it was kosher to spend the greater power on a lesser power, and I assume that from relic-> artifact is worth at least a lesser power. So if anything, this is a really weak mount)

Point buy, emphasis on Str and con, and some dex.

-----------------
Result:
Base movment speed of 235. Can boost to 245 with drinks, and 255 with a haste spell cast on him
Can run over water, and leaves a trail of fire behind him. He can run straight through mundane barriers. Can spend swifts as moves a zillion times per encounter, and has 2 swifts each round to do it with. Additionally, he can move as an immediate round 2/encounter
He can also also double his movement speed for one round.

So, when throwing all his effort into it, he can start with a base speed of 255. moves 5ft due to recopn. Activates turbo for 510. Moves, standard to move, uses two swifts to move, then after his turn uses his immediate action to move. This is a total distance of 2555 ft, traveling at 255.5mph, leaving a trail of fire the entire distance. If having 2 swifts allows you 2 immediate actions(the rules are unclear on this point), then his movement is 3065 and a speed of 306.5 mph.

If he sacrifices the ability to leave fire trails, he can take utter brute, get another 10 move speed, and 2 extra 5ft movements in a round. This would bring his movement up to 3135, or 313.5 mph.

[Answerer]

Harry Dresden (As of Small Favor)
Awesome, but...

Elemental Resistance: Harry gains [Resistance] to [Fire]. Ar 16th level, he will gain [Immunity] to [Fire]. This ability is passive, not activated.
He wishes.

I realize he had his improved shield by A Small Favor, but still, that was an activated (and fairly limited) ability that blocked a lot more than just fire, and not nearly so well.

Of course, Legend's much, much higher-magic than is the Dresdenverse.

[Lagren]

Awesome, but...

He wishes.

I realize he had his improved shield by A Small Favor, but still, that was an activated (and fairly limited) ability that blocked a lot more than just fire, and not nearly so well.

Of course, Legend's much, much higher-magic than is the Dresdenverse.

It was this or Fire Elemental. I had a hard enough time trying not to let him fly all over the place like super-Dresden. I figure it's part of the coat.

It's not an immunity, at least.

[Doc Roc]

It was this or Fire Elemental. I had a hard enough time trying not to let him fly all over the place like super-Dresden. I figure it's part of the coat.

It's not an immunity, at least.

Also, his change is pretty abrupt, so we could suggest that he swapped a track after char-gen?

[Doc Roc]

How does one determine what Track(s) a Guild offers?

It's up to a GM. Many guilds just offer every track, which is an easy solution suitable for most settings.

[Lagren]

Also, his change is pretty abrupt, so we could suggest that he swapped a track after char-gen?

As in his change into a wizard, or...?
I seem to remember a lot of training with DuMorne on the way to his becoming a wizard.

I'd like a bit of clarification here.

[Doc Roc]

As in his change into a wizard, or...?
I seem to remember a lot of training with DuMorne on the way to his becoming a wizard.

I'd like a bit of clarification here.

SPOILERS
Acquisition of hellfire.

[Mystify]

I did some math on my sonic character.

he could cover a 24x25 square with flame. around the party. Not outline, not trace the perimeter, fill every square with flame.

They also easily outpace any teleportation effect in the game except for the long range 100 mile ones. A move, swift, charge, and they can hit the guy who dimension doored to his max range, and that is without any speed boosts other than the swift move action.




-----
Also, as written, the ruinous charge is extremely powerful. You could charge through 200+ feet of rock with the build I outlined, and even a basic str-based character would be able to handle 40 feet or more. It says you can charge through any mundane material, up to iron or steel, but has to limits on how thick it can be or what configuration it takes.
Is that how its intended to work?
Also, can you charge without a target? It says you use a standard action to move up to your speed and make a melee attack. Does that mean you have to attack a creature? What if you just attack a random rock, or the air, or the invisible creature that is not really there?
Combining the two would let you ruinous charge through solid stone, up to your speed each round, leaving rubble behind you. Which fits perfectly with sonic, but I'm not sure if that is the intended function of the ability.








Also, five foot step is specified in the manuevers. However, it is listed as a "five-foot step", whilst other places list it as a "5-foot step", which is why it didn't turn up when I did a search. I suggest being more consistent with how its written.

[Answerer]

Spoilers through Dead Beat (really, it's not much of a spoiler if you've read Death Masks to completion, but I'm not really sure where the concept is explained in Blood Rites or Dead Beat)

Acquisition of hellfire.
Eh. Hellfire was important for a variety of reasons, but it didn't especially change the immediate outcome of his spells in a qualitative way; it just made them more powerful.

Spoilers through White Night (bigger spoiler)
The acquisition of Soulfire changed his spells in far more significant ways.

Spoilers through Changes (really, really big spoiler)
Of course, taking on the mantle of the Winter Knight literally was a track change.

[Lagren]

SPOILERS
Acquisition of hellfire.



SPOILERS

But by Small Favor, he's lost it. Otherwise I would have included it specifically. I haven't included Soulfire, but that doesn't happen until halfway through Small Favor anyway.

I'm thinking of doing a lower level version of Harry with Lasciel's sigil seperately, anyway.


Spoilers through Dead Beats (really, it's not much of a spoiler if you've read Death Masks to completion, but I'm not really sure where the concept is explained in Blood Rites or Dead Beats)

Eh. Hellfire was important for a variety of reasons, but it didn't especially change the immediate outcome of his spells in a qualitative way; it just made them more powerful.

Spoilers through White Night (bigger spoiler)
The acquisition of Soulfire changed his spells in far more significant ways.

Spoilers through Changes (really, really big spoiler)
Of course, taking on the mantle of the Winter Knight literally was a track change.

Firstly, the name of the book is Dead Beat. Not Beats. That would break the title pattern.
In response to White Night Spoiler:

Yeah, I might take the Manyspell Magus line to represent Soufire.

In response to HUGE Changes spoiler:

And as for the Winter Knight title, well... That might swap out Shaman Casting to Water Elemental. Though we've only got one major scene where he uses it.

[Lagren]

Also, have a Murphy:

Karrin Murphy (As of Small Favor)
10th Level Human Monk/Ranger/Paladin (Full buy-in)
Discipline of the Serpent, Discipline of the Dragon, Battle's Tempering, Heroica


Defenses:
HP: 132
AC: 27 [10+10+4+2(Armor)+1(Human)]
Fort save modifier: +9 [5+4]
Ref save modifier: +11 [8+3]
Will save modifier: +14 [8+6]

Abilities:
Str 10
Con 18
Dex 16
Int 14
Wis 22
Cha 10

Skills:
Athletics +10
Acrobatics +13
Diplomacy +10
Intimidate +10
Perception +18 (+2 Human)
Bluff +10

Discipline of the Serpent:

1st Circle – Unarmed Strike EX:
When Murphy attacks with her unarmed strike, she can change its base damage from 1d4+6 to 1d8+6. In addition, Murphy can add 3d8 [Precision] to her unarmed strikes. She may only apply one source of [Precision] damage to any attack.
Additionally, Murphy can use the Flurry combat maneuver with no action cost and no attack penalty.

2nd Circle – The Iron Fang EX:
Murphy may use her unarmed damage in place of a pistol's normal damage, but all its other abilities remain unchanged .

3rd Circle – Way of the Hydra SU:
As a swift action, if Murphy strikes an enemy twice in the same round, she can generate a mirror image of herself – an illusionary duplicate that shares her combat space. Enemies attacking her have a 50% chance of striking her duplicate (which destroys it) instead. She may only have one duplicate in effect at a time. This is an evocation [Figment] effect.

4th Circle – Deftly Striking EX: Murphy may make a full attack at any time during her move, instead of only using it at the beginning or end of her movement for the round.

Discipline of the Dragon

1st Circle – Stance of the Falling Star EX: When knocked down, Murphy is quick to get up for another exchange of punches and kicks. When [Prone], she can stand up as a swift action instead of a move action.

2nd Circle – Obsidian Mind EX: Murphy has learnt to protect her mind from the clouds of fear. She has [Immunity] to [Fear] effects, including the combat use (but not the social use) of the Intimidate skill.

3rd Circle – Dance of the Sun and Moon EX:
Careful Sun: Murphy has the Hard to Break ability. Once per [Encounter], if she makes a successful Will saving throw against an effect that would normally have a lesser effect on a successful save, she instead ignores the effect entirely.

4th Circle – Diamond Soul EX:
Murphy reduces all damage that she takes from spells and spell-like abilities by 20 hit points.

Heroica:
1st Circle – The Blade and the Bow EX:
Murphy can designate one ally within sight (who cannot be herself, and probably is Dresden.) This can be changed once a week, and the bond is exclusive (nobody can have two partners or benefit from two different partnerships). Murphy and her partner both add half their respective levels to damage rolls with any weapon (minimum 1). If her partner also has this ability, the damage bonuses stack. Her bonus is +6.

2nd Circle – Of Might and Guile EX:
Guile: Murphy can spend a move action to double her partner’s critical threat range for one [Round]. Her partner also gains this ability, but cannot use it in a [Round] where Murphy has used it.

3rd Circle – The Just and the Unjust EX:
Murphy's partner is affected by any one of her Lesser or Greater magic items.

Battle's Tempering:
1st Circle – Rather Quick than Dead EX:
Murphy has a +5 bonus on initiative rolls.
2nd Circle – Dive for Cover EX:
Murphy has the Evasion ability. Once per [Encounter], if she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage.
3rd Circle – For Ire EX:
Murphy's more likely to end up with bruises and scrapes, instead of gaping chest wounds. She has [Fast healing] 4.

Feats:
To Iron Married
Pistolero
Danger Sense
Big Damn Hero

Items:
Bulletproof Vest (Lesser Magic Armor)

Consumables:
3x First Aid Kit (Healing Potion)
2x Limited Diplomatic Immunity (Being a cop has some advantages.)

[Zejety]

1) If I generate a Demon Barbarian, will I have to swap out (for the Demon track or by multiclassing) Path of Rage because I do not have STR as my KOM?

2) GMs are allowed to swap out tracks however they want. Can they take Path of Rage without Elven Wardance or STR as their KOM? Can they take Esoterica Radica on a non-Rogue chassis? Judgement?

3) Can I multiclass into my own class? What I mean is, for example, can a Rogue swap out Esoterica Radica or his offensive track for a second defensive track? Or can a Ranger take both Iron Magi and Reign of Arrows in this way? I asume that the latter one will probably not work because both are actually the same track, but I am at a total loss concerning Rogues or Paladins (swapping Knowledge for an other Paladin track).

[2xMachina]

IDk about 1 and 2, but for 3...

It is stated that the Offensive and Defensive tracks of the rogue are exclusive. You may only have 1 offensive rogue track in total, as with defensive rogue track.


Some tracks are part of the same overall track, and therefore you cannot have more than one of them for any reason. For example, the three options for the Rogue’s Offensive Track are mutually exclusive, as
with the rogue’s Defensive Track options, the
ranger’s Daggers and Bolts options, and the Sage’s Wrath options.

EDIT: Re: Q1,
I'm also confused on how the KoM/skills of Racial track + class combo works.

[gkathellar]

I'm also confused on how the KoM/skills of Racial track + class combo works.

Unless you take it with Guild Initiate or Full Buy-In, all racial tracks replace your normal race and normal class chassis entirely.

[Zejety]

One more question:


The offensive track is chosen at 1st level and the defensive track at 2nd level
This way, a Rogue can have any KDM at 1st level and might change it at 2nd level when chosing his defensive track.

Is this intended? Paladins must chose their Dedication and Oath at 1st level.

[Doc Roc]

One more question:


This way, a Rogue can have any KDM at 1st level and might change it at 2nd level when chosing his defensive track.

Is this intended? Paladins must chose their Dedication and Oath at 1st level.

There's an errata already written, just not placed.

[Answerer]

Firstly, the name of the book is Dead Beat. Not Beats. That would break the title pattern.
Derp, fixed. I was vaguely aware there was a title pattern, but never bothered to figure out what it was, beyond the two-word thing. Also, Changes does break the pattern, but then... yeah.

White Night spoiler:

Yeah, I might take the Manyspell Magus line to represent Soufire.
Glyphweave Adept does change things visually, but has little mechanical effect, which Soulfire would. Manyspell Magus itself doesn't really seem that appropriate.

Changes spoiler:

And as for the Winter Knight title, well... That might swap out Shaman Casting to Water Elemental. Though we've only got one major scene where he uses it.
Agreed that we don't know what to call it, I was just saying that it was a perfect example of a track change in a narrative.

[gkathellar]

Next up: I'm having trouble with Durkon, so you get someone significantly dumber, instead.

Elan
Human Rogue, Level 12, Full Buy-In
Human: +2 Charisma, +1 AC, +1 (+1/8 levels) Diplomacy
Str 12, Dex 18 (KOM), Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 24 (KDM)
Fort: +9 / Ref: +17 / Will: +17 / Initiative: +4
Armor Class: 31 / HP: 155 / Speed: 40
Melee Range 15 / Close Range 50 / Medium Range 200
Awareness: 23 / Bluff: 23 / Diplomacy: 22 / Intimidate: 29 / Perception: 29

Offense

Elan's Rapier: +15/+10, 2d6+15, [Melee]


Skills

Trained: Acrobatics +16 / Athletics +13 / Diplomacy +21 / Geography +12 / History +12 / Ride +16 / Stealth +16
Physical: Larceny +6
Knowledge: Arcana +0 / Engineering +0 / Medicine +0 / Nature +0
Social: Bluff +7 / Intimidate +7 / Perception +1


Feats

I Am Not Left Handed: Each round of combat that you may make an attack that is not an intentional miss, you gain a focus point. You may spend a number of focus points to reduce your AC and the AC of all enemies within 60 feet by the same amount.
Master of Swordplay (The Terrible Swift Lash): While using a sword, you may take an extra 5 foot step each round, and you may take it during your attack. As an immediate action, you may render the target of your next attack [Prone] for 1 round unless they succeed on a DC 20 (10+level/2+KOM) Reflex save.
Kensai: When you attack, you can choose to miss intentionally and gain a focus point. 1/round, you can spend a focus point to automatically block an attack directed at you.
Charm: 1/[Encounter], as a standard action, a target creature must make a DC 23 (10+level/2+Charisma modifier) Will save or stop attacking you and change its attitude to friendly. Attacking the creature ends this effect. In a social encounter, you may substitute this ability for a social attack, and if your opponent fails on a Will save they cannot use the Intimidate skill for the duration of the encounter. They must then succeed on a second Will save to avoid exiting the encounter.
Guild Initiation: Smiting
Damage Specialization: Your attacks deal +4 (KOM) bonus [Precision] damage.


Esoterica Radica (gained at levels 1, 3, 6, etc.)

Playing It Right: You may take 10 on Diplomacy and History checks regardless of the circumstances.
When to Hold: 3/[Encounter] (level/4), as an immediate action, gain a +4 (1+level/4) to your choice of AC or any one saving throw until the beginning of your next turn.
When to Fold: 3/[Encounter] (level/4), as a swift action, gain an extra move action.
When to Cheat: 1/[Encounter], if your HP would be reduced below zero, you may set it to 12 (level) as an immediate action instead.
When to Run: 2/[Encounter], as an immediate action, move up to your base speed.


Smiting (gained at levels 1, 4, 7, etc.)

Skirmish: Whenever you miss on an attack roll against an opponent, you gain a +1 to attacks against that opponent for the duration of the [Encounter]. This bonus stacks up to +12 (level).
Conflict: You add +7 (Charisma modifier) to damage rolls with a weapon.
Struggle: If you hit twice in a row against an opponent, add +7 (Charisma modifier) to damage rolls against that opponent until your next turn. If you hit four times in a row, add +14 (Charisma modifier x2) instead. This stacks with Conflict.
Escalation: When you deal bonus damage from the Struggle ability, your opponent is [Battered] for 1 round per hit benefiting from Struggle. Once per round, when you hit a [Battered] opponent, they must make a DC 23 (10+level/2+Charisma modifier) Fortitude save to avoid being [Dazed] for one round.

Fortune's Friend (gained at levels 2, 5, 8, etc.)

A Little to the Left: 1/[Encounter], if you would be reduced to negative hit points, you are reduced to 1 hit point and gain an immediate move action instead.
Improvisation: As a swift action, grant an ally within [Close] range a +2 to attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks and skill checks until your next turn.
Gift of Gab: You gain a +3 deflection bonus to Armor Class and Reflex saves.
Better Lucky and Good: 1/[Round], at no action cost, remove one of the following conditions from yourself — [Battered], [Bleeding], [Blinded], [Confused], [Cowering], [Dazed], [Dazzled], [Deafened], [Entangled], [Exhausted], [Fatigued], [Frightened], [Nauseated], [Panicked], [Paralyzed], [Petrified], [Shaken], [Sickened] or [Stunned].

Full Buy-In: Force of Will (gained at levels 1, 4, 7, etc.)

Healing Burst: Once per round as a move action, allies within 15 feet are healed for 19 (level+KDM) points of damage.
A Stitch In Time + A Steady Old Hand: Once per round as a standard or swift action, you allow allies within 25 feet to make a single melee or ranged attack.
Stem the Tide: As an immediate action, you can place a rune on an ally within 45 feet. You start any [Encounter] with one rune placed, and may have up to two active during an [Encounter]. When a creature with a rune would take damage from an attack, they suffer only half of that damage and the rune dissipates. When a creature with two runes would take damage from an attack, they take no damage and both runes dissipate.


Equipment

Mundane: Light Armor: +1 AC.
Lesser: Grim Fragment: +2 Charisma.
Greater: Elan's Rapier: +2 to-hit (item), +12 (level) maximum HP


Consumables

Healing Potion: Restore 60 hit points.
Formal Favor: Gain 1 additional token for a social encounter.
Limited Diplomatic Immunity: You gain 2 free tokens that can be used in any social encounter with law enforcement or their allies.


Discovery: the Sage's "Force of Will" is perfect for bardic music.

As the proverbial "5th party member" (even though he's the sixth) Elan is the only full buy-in member of the Order. In general, I'm pretty happy with how he came out — he's versatile, vaguely useless, but also very deadly if you give him a chance. Don't ask me what track he switched out with Guild Initiation. I'm assuming he didn't have a third track do to being pre-Dashing Swordsman Elan.

You'll notice his rapier does not correspond to any item in the books — however, there are two Greater magic items listed that provide only standard bonuses for their enchantment level and +1 hp/level, so I assumed it would be perfectly fair for Elan's sword to do the same.

This is the first big empty spot I can see with magic items: not enough magic weapons below Artifact level. The ones at artifact level are fantastic, but you don't get those until 17th level.

What might be a good solution to this would be "scaling" items, that have statistics in Lesser, Greater, Relic and Artifact form. That way, a character could fight at 20th level with the same family sword they used at 1st, but get a lot more out of said sword.

[Answerer]

Discovery: the Sage's "Force of Will" is perfect for bardic music.
Which is odd, considering that the Sage's Arcane Secrets have things named "Red Hymn", "Grey Hymn", "Canto", and the like.

The Sage was very much intended to be a possible Bard surrogate, though. Several times playtesters would ask about the Bard, Flicker would say something about the Skald, Jake would scowl, and tell them to refluff the Sage.

[Nohwl]

the options for magic weapons are a little limited right now, but a point buy magic weapon/armor creation is being worked on as one of the donation incentives.

[Zejety]

Just to proof that I am not being idle:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCG.html

Yes, it only has the first creating screen, but there is already a lot of stuff happening in the background, keeping track of your choices.


Also, my questions still remain unanswered:

1) If I generate a Demon Barbarian, will I have to swap out (for the Demon track or by multiclassing) Path of Rage because I do not have STR as my KOM?

2) GMs are allowed to swap out tracks however they want. Can they take Path of Rage without Elven Wardance or STR as their KOM? Can they take Esoterica Radica on a non-Rogue chassis? Judgement?

3) Can I multiclass into my own class?
[The quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12687918&postcount=112) provided by 2xMachina (thanks!) answers this for most builds. But what about paladins? Can they swap out Knowledge for one of their other tracks?]

[Doc Roc]

hurf. poets.

poets (https://docs.google.com/a/ruleofcool.com/document/d/1OVTJ7x31WsuIGJJCq-5sJPNEHcPHmEh09DEXM4XNnYE/edit).

[Tenno Seremel]

Critical hits against you are treated as regular hits, and increase your maximum HP by your character level until end of encounter.
Crit optimizers will be mad about this :}

[Geigan]

hurf. poets.

poets (https://docs.google.com/a/ruleofcool.com/document/d/1OVTJ7x31WsuIGJJCq-5sJPNEHcPHmEh09DEXM4XNnYE/edit).
That track looks to die for.:smallamused:

Also reposting my question again since it just seems go right under whenever I post it:

I would like to know how people tend to handle magical items in their games in acquisition, allowance, and other aspects. Do you hand them out at the levels where the bindings open up or do you make them earn them before they can bind them as well? Do you stick to the default fluff or do you reflavor most of it? Do you treat them as rewards, natural character advancement, or something else? How do you treat the magic items that enemies have if they haven't full bought in or if they are high enough level in the full buy in to still have items? etc etc etc

[Doc Roc]

I tend to be free with magic items, since I trust our level-bound approach to just be reliable. So far, so good.

[Geigan]

I tend to be free with magic items, since I trust our level-bound approach to just be reliable. So far, so good.

How do they tend acquire them in game? Do they suddenly pull it out like something they just haven't had the chance to use until now, or do you tend to have specifics on how they acquired them based on the story? Any particular examples of fluff you could share?

[Mystify]

hurf. poets.

poets (https://docs.google.com/a/ruleofcool.com/document/d/1OVTJ7x31WsuIGJJCq-5sJPNEHcPHmEh09DEXM4XNnYE/edit).
This class seems like it would fall apart if you have a healer in the group. You are trading in your ability to be properly healed for someones immediate healing. If you have a healer, you are sabotaging their ability to heal you, and gain some AC. The AC is deflection, so it doesn't stack with many other sources of AC you could get without crippling yourself. You are not getting much in the way of extra AC, if anything, compared to other people who focus in AC. Therefore, you aren't really getting any more durability out of trading your max hp. Red iron nightmare actually rewards you for having a low KOM, which is bizarre. Runework truths is nice, but you can get that effect in many other ways without crippling yourself for the privelage. timeworn hearts is kinda cool, and helps offset everything else you are sacrificing, but it comes in very late.

I'm not very impressed by this track overall. It seems like you are more likely to disadvantage yourself than you are to help yourself, and the benefits you get from doing so don't seem particularly better than other tracks to make up for the disadvantage.

Also, its a free action to transfer the hp.That means you can do it 5 times in a round. Is that the intended function?

[Doc Roc]

Yes, that is intended.

[Mystify]

Yes, that is intended.

ok, I thought it might be.

How about the ruinous charge? Does it really let you tunnel through rock?

[0nimaru]

This seems like a very powerful option to toss on a character who doesn't like their last track and doesn't know what to do. The traditional "Make the fourth persona healer" can be covered here by somebody swapping out an unwanted track.

Max Hp generally won't matter once hits start flying, making this quite a powerful track that isn't very action-hungry.

I think I like this track, which is cool since I found the topics voted up to be pretty lame considering the alternatives.

[Doc Roc]

ok, I thought it might be.

How about the ruinous charge? Does it really let you tunnel through rock?

Yes, that is intended. Ruinous Charge is not appropriate for all campaigns.

[Mystify]

Yes, that is intended. Ruinous Charge is not appropriate for all campaigns.

That is sweet. My sonic character can tunnel through the ground, that is perfect.

I have to ask about these things,because my initial reaction tends to be "That can't be right", but then I remember its legend and realize that is might be right. It may be helpful to be a bit more explicit with abilities like that.

[Tenno Seremel]

If anyone interested… My first Legend homebrew: Inquisitor track (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232106). It's pretty late at night here so be gentle :smallsmile:

[IthroZada]

Yes, that is intended. Ruinous Charge is not appropriate for all campaigns.

You would require line of sight to a target on the other side of the wall though, correct? Just charging the wall would just have you hitting it with your weapon, as I understand it.

[Quintaton16]

If anyone interested… My first Legend homebrew: Inquisitor track (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232106). It's pretty late at night here so be gentle :smallsmile:

I like the feel of the class. The [Sealed] mechanic is elegant, and the flavor seems spot-on.

I'm not sure whether a PC would want to take a track which is mostly useless against non-casters, since in Legend there are so many good builds that use no magic at all. Mage-killer characters work much better in 3e since just about every moderate-to-high tier class had some sort of casting, but in Legend there are a lot of builds which pose legitimate threats and which don't have any SUs or SLAs at all.

My biggest concern is how long it takes for this track to fully come online. At first circle, which could be up to a 4th level character, if you are attacked by a gang of normal mundane rangers or barbarians, the track is absolutely useless. At second circle, it actually starts affecting non-casters, but you are still spending your standard action every round for three, four, or more rounds just to Seal all the casters, plus anyone else you want, and then spending a swift action once every couple rounds as people put out fires, and then having to restart the whole process over again as your Seals wear off. It's incredibly action-intensive, and compared to, for example, the Fire Elemental track, you're not getting a whole lot out of it.

I feel like the build isn't worth the action cost you're putting into it until you gain the fourth circle ability, at which point you start dishing out serious debuffs. That's a really long time to be walking around with an underwhelming track. Contrast that with tracks like Path of Rage or Arcane Lore. The 'core' of the ability is present from first circle, and it's fully playable immediately. I would recommend that at least one generally applicable condition, say [Slowed] or [Dazed] should be available from first circle, with more being added later.

[Mystify]

You would require line of sight to a target on the other side of the wall though, correct? Just charging the wall would just have you hitting it with your weapon, as I understand it.

What says you need to have a target for a charge? Its a straight line motion ending with a single attack. You charge *through* the wall, and then swing at whatever is on the other side. The air, if need be. You don't even need to charge through an object completely. As my question was pointing out, you could charge through solid ground, and effectively have a standard action burrow ability that only works in straight lines.

[IthroZada]

What says you need to have a target for a charge? Its a straight line motion ending with a single attack. You charge *through* the wall, and then swing at whatever is on the other side. The air, if need be. You don't even need to charge through an object completely. As my question was pointing out, you could charge through solid ground, and effectively have a standard action burrow ability that only works in straight lines.

Ah, I'm just used to the 3.5 definition of Charge, I hadn't really thought of how Legend would have changed it.

[Mystify]

Are rules for staffs and wands meant to be part of the point by system for magic items? There are references to both in the rules, but aside from a couple of specific items there aren't any rules set up for them

[Tenno Seremel]

My biggest concern is how long it takes for this track to fully come online. At first circle, which could be up to a 4th level character, if you are attacked by a gang of normal mundane rangers or barbarians, the track is absolutely useless.
Well, track itself was supposed to be more "supporting" to other tracks character might have. Although I might overdid that with standard action seal placing. Maybe "standard or move action" would be better as at least you can still swing your weapon or do something else. Considering the fact that it is pretty weak at start this should not be a problem.


I would recommend that at least one generally applicable condition, say [Slowed] or [Dazed] should be available from first circle, with more being added later.
I'll try to squeeze [Slowed] into that. The problem with [Dazed] is… it is so good it blocks actions entirely. You might not want to use anything else unless targets are immune. Some limitation might be needed. 1 sealed target only, maybe. But that does not seem to correspond with other abilities that affect all sealed targets.

EDIT: updated that with additional Bind space at first level (save or [Slowed]) and "standard or move action" Seal. 5th Circle makes Blaze (On Fire) a free action.

[Doorhandle]

Maybe have with a bunch of effects, but it only works if there is one target sealed, and only then if it’s channelled? Like a Penatance Stare?

[Answerer]

I was just looking at Google, on a whim, and found that http://www.ruleofcool.com/ is the second hit for "Rule of Cool" (after TV Tropes) and the first hit for "Legend RPG" (beating out Mongoose Publishing's product by that name).

I think this is pretty awesome.

(I'm reasonably certain that I avoided Google's personalizing of my search results here, but it's hard to say for sure...)

[Chambers]

I've started recruitment for a PbP game of Legend here on the forum. Here's the link to the recruitment thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232249) It starts at 6th level and some Tracks are Guild Restricted or Banned due to the homebrew setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210105) (No guns, bombs, warforged, or necromancy, basically).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know... it probably wouldn't be too difficult to stat up Laura Croft... Probably a Rogue who has Daggers and Bolts replacing their Offensive track would be a good place to start, although I could also see a Ranger replacing Professional Hunter with the Acrobatics defensive rogue track...

[Doorhandle]

What, no Gunslinging robot zombies? :smallbiggrin:

Well, anyway, I had this idea for an iconic feat that needs some PEACHing. I think its common enough that it needs a reference in Legend.

edit:
Jotungrip Revised[Iconic]

You have mastered the ability to wield perhaps more weapon/per square inch than is perhaps reasonable in each hand.

Benefit: You gain accesses to a unique weapon type called a Great weapon. This weapon type dose 3d6+[KOM] damage with [Reach], but causes a -2 penalty on your reflex save, due to the difficultly of wielding that much sword. Magic varations do not suffer this penalty.

Much like how a Main weapon can be represented by a two-handed weapon or by dual-weilding, The appearance of this feat and thus the great weapon/s can differ.

It can involve A) Wielding 6 regular weapons, (http://www.game-ost.com/static/covers_soundtracks/2183_117344.jpg) B) wielding 3 longer weapons, one in your teeth (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110316170422/onepiece/images/archive/f/fd/20110316180927!Zoro1.png) C) wielding two two-handed weapons, one in each hand, (http://www.sosgamers.com/wp-content/gallery/sengoku-basara-samurai-heroes/sengoku-basara-3-arte-002.jpg) or D) having a single weapon that is gigantic (http://www.justmanga.com/jmcover/berserkgutBDpvc.jpg).


So. Thoughts?

[Greenish]

+2d6 damage from an iconic feat doesn't really need ref save penalty.

[Doorhandle]

I would say that for an additional 1+ to A.C, and yet heavy armour has the reflex penalty.

What would you suggest to represent the concept then?

[The Glyphstone]

What, no Gunslinging robot zombies? :smallbiggrin:

Well, anyway, I had this idea for an iconic feat that needs some PEACHing. I think its common enough that it needs a reference in Legend.

Jotungrip [Iconic]

You have mastered the ability to wield perhaps more weapon/per square inch than is perhaps reasonable in each hand.

Benefit: You gain accesses to a unique weapon type called a Great weapon. This weapon type dose 4d6+[KOM] damage, but causes a -2 penalty on your reflex save, due to the difficultly of wielding that much sword. If you have the weaponized feat focused on using this great weapon, you gain and additional 4+ bonus to base damage over your regular K.O.M.

The appearance of this feat and thus the great weapon can differ. It can involve A) Wielding 6 regular weapons, (http://www.game-ost.com/static/covers_soundtracks/2183_117344.jpg) B) wielding 3 longer weapons, one in your teeth (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110316170422/onepiece/images/archive/f/fd/20110316180927!Zoro1.png) C) wielding two two-handed weapons, one in each hand, (http://www.sosgamers.com/wp-content/gallery/sengoku-basara-samurai-heroes/sengoku-basara-3-arte-002.jpg) or D) having a single weapon that is gigantic (http://www.justmanga.com/jmcover/berserkgutBDpvc.jpg).


So. Thoughts?

You forgot E), the Whole Bunch Of Weapons Duct-Taped Together (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60864).:smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

I would say that for an additional 1+ to A.C, and yet heavy armour has the reflex penalty.Only the non-magical kind.

How about "you wield a huge weapon, which has 4d6+KOM base damage and [Reach]"? Or maybe a tad less damage.

[Doorhandle]

You forgot E), the Whole Bunch Of Weapons Duct-Taped Together.
OF COURSE!


Only the non-magical kind.

How about "you wield a huge weapon, which has 4d6+KOM base damage and [Reach]"? Or maybe a tad less damage.

Okay, good point, magical versions should remove the penalty.

I don't think it should have reach, as it could also be weilding loads of smaller weapons, although it would make sense for the huge version. Hmm. I think I will go along with it anyway though. Any other concerns?

[Cieyrin]

I'd say 3d6 + reach is good enough, balanced by the fact that magic weapons are just gonna be bonuses for you without special properties.

Also, yay, now we can make Cloud! :smallwink:

[Doorhandle]

I'd say 3d6 + reach is good enough, balanced by the fact that magic weapons are just gonna be bonuses for you without special properties.

Also, yay, now we can make Cloud! :smallwink:

Not really. The custom magic-items source should come out eventually and then you will be able to add speical qualties.

[Chambers]

What, no Gunslinging robot zombies? :smallbiggrin:

Heh, not for this game. Maybe another one.

[Zejety]

Sorry if I am being obnoxious but I need these answered to continue development:

1) If I generate a Demon Barbarian, will I have to swap out (for the Demon track or by multiclassing) Path of Rage because I do not have STR as my KOM?

2) GMs are allowed to swap out tracks however they want. Can they take Path of Rage without Elven Wardance or STR as their KOM? Can they take Esoterica Radica on a non-Rogue chassis? Judgement?

3) Can I multiclass into my own class?
[The quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12687918&postcount=112) provided by 2xMachina (thanks!) answers this for most builds. But what about paladins? Can they swap out Knowledge for one of their other tracks?]


And a new one:
The introduction to the chapter "Additional Tracks and Abilities" reads

These tracks can be used for building monstrous NPCs, for multiclassing, and particularly for guilds. All are also available for the shaman’s path track. [emphasis mine]
This conflicts with

Unlike most tracks, Mechanist Savant is only available to characters through the Guild Initiation feat.
Can a Shaman pick Mechanist Savant for his Shaman's Path slot?

[imperialspectre]

1) You must either swap out Path of Rage or take the Elven War Dance feat.

2) When we say swap out tracks however you want, we generally are referring to the ability to combine tracks without regard to the normal cap on the number of tracks you can multiclass for free. They still have to be legal track choices.

3) Judgment is exclusive and non-swappable for Paladins, Radica is exclusive and non-swappable for Rogues. This is mentioned (in the case of Paladins) on pages 30 and 41. You cannot trade these out for any reason; the only way to have paladin tracks without multiclassing is to start with a racial track and choose two Paladin tracks, per the racial track rules on page 77.

4) Specific rules override general rules. Mechanist Savant specifically states that it can only be accessed through Guild Initiation. It is an invalid choice for Shaman's Path unless the Shaman takes Guild Initiation at 1st level, trading Shaman's Path for Mechanist Savant.

[demigodus]

For the Sage's Wrath track, is Mystic Focus limited to spell like abilities, or can it be used with spells as well?

[Partysan]

As others have also mentioned, when I first read through the book I was somewhat taken aback by the apparent lack of a "technical" melee class (meaning one based on superior weapon skill). Now that the Knight track has been released I think it does a nice job but it is only available by feat tax. Is there a specific reason for this game's reluctance when it comes to this kind of concept?

(It is still a great and well designed game, mind you. I'm just wondering.)

[Doorhandle]

Proably because the warriors are so quadratic.

they're assuming that ALL of them are technical

[Zejety]

[snip]

Thanks a lot!
However, I can not find anything about Paladins not being able to swap out Judgement. What comes closest is "The Judgment track is common to all paladins, and so is listed directly on the ability chart" but that -to me- reads more like "you can chose your other two tracks" not "you can not chose the Judgment slot for multiclassing".

[Draz74]

As others have also mentioned, when I first read through the book I was somewhat taken aback by the apparent lack of a "technical" melee class (meaning one based on superior weapon skill). Now that the Knight track has been released I think it does a nice job but it is only available by feat tax. Is there a specific reason for this game's reluctance when it comes to this kind of concept?

(It is still a great and well designed game, mind you. I'm just wondering.)

Path of Destruction, Discipline of the Serpent, A Reign of Arrows, and Heroica can also be good tracks to represent technical skill with weapons. Plus feats.

[subject42]

I've been reading through the latest PDF and I have one question so far. Are natural weapons treated exactly like normal weapons in Legend, or are they like 3.x natural weapons that cannot be used for iteratives? The PDF uses the term without defining it.

[Flickerdart]

I've been reading through the latest PDF and I have one question so far. Are natural weapons treated exactly like normal weapons in Legend, or are they like 3.x natural weapons that cannot be used for iteratives? The PDF uses the term without defining it.
Legend only has one kind of weapons - weapons. Whether natural or manufactured, all weapons act the same.

[subject42]

Legend only has one kind of weapons - weapons. Whether natural or manufactured, all weapons act the same.

What happens if you're holding the Orb of Exigencies and somebody punches you?

[Cog]

What happens if you're holding the Orb of Exigencies and somebody punches you?
'Tis only a flesh wound!

[Doc Roc]

What happens if you're holding the Orb of Exigencies and somebody punches you?

An errata!

[subject42]

Two more questions:

Are players allowed to take racial tracks without being a member of that race? If so, via what mechanisms are they allowed to do so? Does the racial track still override your BAB, KAMs, and Saves?

If you create a 10th level Dwarf that takes Slow and Steady and Juggernaut [Iconic] feats, you may choose to reduce your move speed by half when you would be knocked prone, but you are immune to being [Slowed]. How does that interact with Slow and Steady? Are you just flat out immune to being knocked prone at that point, or does Slow and Steady not bestow the [Slowed] condition?

[Cieyrin]

Are players allowed to take racial tracks without being a member of that race? If so, via what mechanisms are they allowed to do so? Does the racial track still override your BAB, KAMs, and Saves?

Besides being that race, you can pick up racial tracks via Guild Initiation and Full Buy-In, I believe. If you didn't pick it as your race, it doesn't override your base stats.

[gkathellar]

If you create a 10th level Dwarf that takes Slow and Steady and Juggernaut [Iconic] feats, you may choose to reduce your move speed by half when you would be knocked prone, but you are immune to being [Slowed]. How does that interact with Slow and Steady? Are you just flat out immune to being knocked prone at that point, or does Slow and Steady not bestow the [Slowed] condition?

They don't interact at all. Since Slow and Steady doesn't mention the [Slowed] condition, and the [Slowed] condition as described on pg. 121 is entirely different from the effects of Slow and Steady, no, Juggernaut would not apply. In general, if it doesn't look like [X], and it doesn't quack like [X], it's not [X].

Cieyrin already got your other question right on. If you choose it through normal multiclassing, you get the race and chassis - if you choose it through Guild Initiate or Full Buy-In, you only get the track.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have a question concerning the Bastion track...

Does it also disperse beneficial instantaneous spells to any ally who happens to be in the area at the time? For example, if I cast Cure Light Wounds on myself, do any allies within my Bastion radius also get the healing + status effect removal? The wording is a bit vague, since it could be said that, for that instant, it was currently affecting you.

I'd like a clarification, and if it does not work with instantaneous spells, perhaps a bit of errata to include the phrase 'with a duration greater than Instantaneous'.

[Mystify]

I have a question concerning the Bastion track...

Does it also disperse beneficial instantaneous spells to any ally who happens to be in the area at the time? For example, if I cast Cure Light Wounds on myself, do any allies within my Bastion radius also get the healing + status effect removal? The wording is a bit vague, since it could be said that, for that instant, it was currently affecting you.

I'd like a clarification, and if it does not work with instantaneous spells, perhaps a bit of errata to include the phrase 'with a duration greater than Instantaneous'.
It says "currently effecting you", which implies to me the spell must have a duration.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hey, I have a couple problems with the wording of Juggernaut. It says you're treated as Large without the penalties. I'm guessing you didn't intend small creatures to take it and be large. Also, do I actually grow and take up four squares, or is it more like Powerful Build was in 3.5, where you're medium with the benefits of being Large?

Hope this helps for the next errata!

[Mystify]

Hey, I have a couple problems with the wording of Juggernaut. It says you're treated as Large without the penalties. I'm guessing you didn't intend small creatures to take it and be large. Also, do I actually grow and take up four squares, or is it more like Powerful Build was in 3.5, where you're medium with the benefits of being Large?

Hope this helps for the next errata!

As far as I can tell, there is nothing saying that large makes you take up 4 squares in the first place.
If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As far as I can tell, there is nothing saying that large makes you take up 4 squares in the first place.
If I'm wrong, please correct me.

I guess I just assumed it did from 3.5. I didn't read anything to the contrary, so I just filled in the blank.

[Mystify]

I guess I just assumed it did from 3.5. I didn't read anything to the contrary, so I just filled in the blank.
Thats one of the risks of making a system so similar to another system. People fill in blanks, and sometimes you aren't sure if its not supposed to work like that and you are doing it because that is how D&D worked, or if it is supposed to work like that, and the writer filled in the blank with D&D.

By RAW, a towering creature still takes up a 5ft space, but is big enough to attack flying things. The legendary ability Colossus is the only thing I've seen that makes you take up more sqares.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One more question, this time in regards to spellcasting:

The relevant paragraph:
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for tacticians, and Wisdom for shamans.


Now, if my character was a Shaman who had taken Tactician casting as his 'spare' track, then he would, in fact, be a Shaman, and thus his Wisdom would be used for both realms of casting? Or have I made a MAD character which requires Wis for Shaman spells, and Int for Tactician spells?

[Mystify]

Here is a scary build:

The mountain golem.
sentient construct/Earth elemental/judgment/ reign of arrows

notable feats:
acid blood
musketeer
guild initiation

Legendary abilities:


champion- indestructible - 1/2 damage from physical soruces
fated- windblessed- ranged attacks made from [medium] or longer range simply fail
Immortal- colossus - only [flying] creatures or those who possess a climb speed can attack you.
Legend- titan- immune to physical damage


You have to be flying to attack him, but he can use a standard action to knock you out of the air and prevent you from flying. He can also attack with normal attacks to knock you out of the air. Windblessed means you can't attack them from outside of close range, even if you are flying, so you have to get close enough for them to stop you from flying. If you show yourself as a threat, he will be sure to knock you out of the air. This means the most feasible way to attack him is with a climb speed. And even when you do attack him, you take damage for it. He can also make ranged attacks against anyone withing close who attacks him, leaving them flat footed, use immediate actions to counter ranged attacks.

Even if you do manage to get close enough to attack, then you can't use physical attacks, since he is Immune. He also reduces the damage from spells and spell like abilities by 40, making him highly resistant to them as well, and even when you manage to kill him, he comes back the next round at full. He has more health than normal, and slows down enemies.

He is immune to level drain, ability drain, ability damage,glamers, mind affecting, fear, faitgued, exhausted, blown away, stunned, dazed, and prone.
---------
So, this seems like it would shut down most characters. flying is not a viable long-term tactic against it, and most characters who train athletics are going ot be focused on physical damage. In fact, by RAW having acrobatics does not give you a climb speed. Only characters with "I am ten ninjas" would have a climb speed, and they are likewise liable to deal physical damage. A Demonan with I am ten ninjas is probably the most likely character to pose a threat to it, having both a climb speed and doing non-magical elemental damage, as well as being a single class build.

Is this overpowered, or is that level of ridiculous normal for a level 20 legendary creature, and parties could actually handle it?

[Chambers]

One of the proposed ideas in my recruitment thread right now is using a Shaman to cast the Incantation version of spells on a character with the Bastion track. Call Lightning as an Incantation does d6 per level electricity damage per attack with the electrified weapon.

As the character with the Bastion track is under the effect of a beneficial spell, it would get shared with the other characters via his aura. So now all the characters have a weapon that does d6/level bonus electricity damage per attack. Was this an intended result?

Bless would also work in this manner. The Shaman uses the Incantation version of Bless on the Bastion character for +1 to attack and will saves, increasing by +1/three levels to everyone in the aura.

[Greenish]

Call Lightning's insanely powerful Incantation is a mistake waiting to be fixed, I believe.

[demigodus]

Here is a scary build:

The mountain golem.
sentient construct/Earth elemental/judgment/ reign of arrows

notable feats:
acid blood
musketeer
guild initiation

Legendary abilities:


champion- indestructible - 1/2 damage from physical soruces
fated- windblessed- ranged attacks made from [medium] or longer range simply fail
Immortal- colossus - only [flying] creatures or those who possess a climb speed can attack you.
Legend- titan- immune to physical damage


You have to be flying to attack him, but he can use a standard action to knock you out of the air and prevent you from flying. He can also attack with normal attacks to knock you out of the air. Windblessed means you can't attack them from outside of close range, even if you are flying, so you have to get close enough for them to stop you from flying. If you show yourself as a threat, he will be sure to knock you out of the air. This means the most feasible way to attack him is with a climb speed. And even when you do attack him, you take damage for it. He can also make ranged attacks against anyone withing close who attacks him, leaving them flat footed, use immediate actions to counter ranged attacks.

Even if you do manage to get close enough to attack, then you can't use physical attacks, since he is Immune. He also reduces the damage from spells and spell like abilities by 40, making him highly resistant to them as well, and even when you manage to kill him, he comes back the next round at full. He has more health than normal, and slows down enemies.

He is immune to level drain, ability drain, ability damage,glamers, mind affecting, fear, faitgued, exhausted, blown away, stunned, dazed, and prone.
---------
So, this seems like it would shut down most characters. flying is not a viable long-term tactic against it, and most characters who train athletics are going ot be focused on physical damage. In fact, by RAW having acrobatics does not give you a climb speed. Only characters with "I am ten ninjas" would have a climb speed, and they are likewise liable to deal physical damage. A Demonan with I am ten ninjas is probably the most likely character to pose a threat to it, having both a climb speed and doing non-magical elemental damage, as well as being a single class build.

Is this overpowered, or is that level of ridiculous normal for a level 20 legendary creature, and parties could actually handle it?

A few things:
windblessed doesn't block ranged attacks from legendary sources. Which means (as far as my group could tell when we discussed the ability yesterday), means any legendary characters. So, a fellow legendary character could take up sniping at long range (3000ft away at lvl 20), and have no trouble hitting you. Of course, we could be wrong, but then there is only 1 legendary ranged attack in the pdf, so that would make windblessed kinda ridiculous.

Windblessed only blocks ranged attacks. It isn't clear if spells and SLA's count as ranged attacks, or just ranged auto-hits.

either way, the golem could be moderately inconvinienced by someone hitting it at medium range with elemental SLA damage.

Still ridiculously hard to kill, but not impossible. For example, if you have a fellow legendary, lvl 20 shaman, they could have muskateer+sniper, incantation the gun with call lightning (+20d6 damage with shots), could pick away at you from 3000ft away. Not sure if that incantation damage counts as a spell/SLA for purposes of your damage reduction. Given your massive size, and the +20 knowledge checks to know about you, wouldn't be metagaming for them to spot you from that far away and decide to kill you without talking.

Possibly add in a flame blade, and the item that adds 2+con as some elemental damage, flurry, and a high attack bonus, and other ridiculous elemental sniper traits for more fun.

Alternatively, a shaman with the fated ability summoner, and a bunch of guns, could create lvl 19 sniper minions. If it has the bastion track, all can be invoked with call lightning for more ranged dakka.

[Cieyrin]

The mountain golem

One thing you're forgetting is that Windblessed can't block ranged attacks from other Legendary sources. So other Legendary characters don't necessarily have to come within range of your smackdown. There's also that while it's immune to to physical damage, you can still reduce its max hit points via any number of RMH effects, so even after it rezs, you don't have as far to spike it down.

EDIT: Partially Ten Ninja'd.

[Mystify]

I'm not talking about it being taken down by a group of legendary characters. I mean just a normal group of level 20ish characters, fighting this as a CR 22 monster.

[demigodus]

I'm not talking about it being taken down by a group of legendary characters. I mean just a normal group of level 20ish characters, fighting this as a CR 22 monster.

ah, sorry. In that case, it comes down to how many high attack melee characters the party has, and if they have any casters that can add a ton of elemental damage to those attacks. I think a decently built lvl 20 party, even without legendary abilities could take it down, IF they pass their knowledge check to learn of the monster's immunities/abilities.

Alternatively, if someone took the telekinetic feats, they can dump 3 tons of materials per round on the monster. I don't believe legend has an encumbrance system sadly, so it would come down to DM ruling as to how many tons can the monster lift at most. No need to damage the immortal if you can bury him under a mountain.

[Flickerdart]

There is a difference between attacks (things with attack rolls) and offensive actions (things that you do to your enemies to make them more dead). I forget if it's already been errated into the glossary, or only going to be.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Call Lightning's insanely powerful Incantation is a mistake waiting to be fixed, I believe.

Flame Blade is a 2nd circle spell, and even functioning as worded is still nearly as powerful. A flat +2/level isn't all that far from +1d6/level (a difference of an average of 1.5). Plus by changing the damage type to [Fire], I believe it bypasses DR, right? Combo that with Elemental Resistance (Reversed) to inflict fire vulnerability, and you've got some nasty damage output. And since you can load up your reversed elemental resistance into an Incantation... as long as you hit the bastard, no save involved.

Now to min/max my attack rolls...

[demigodus]

Flame Blade is a 2nd circle spell, and even functioning as worded is still nearly as powerful. A flat +2/level isn't all that far from +1d6/level (a difference of an average of 1.5). Plus by changing the damage type to [Fire], I believe it bypasses DR, right? Combo that with Elemental Resistance (Reversed) to inflict fire vulnerability, and you've got some nasty damage output. And since you can load up your reversed elemental resistance into an Incantation... as long as you hit the bastard, no save involved.

Now to min/max my attack rolls...

Actually, it says "all the damage increases by 1 point every 2 levels you possess". Hopefully that is a typo, because otherwise, it isn't all that powerful.

Also, out of curiosity, where is reversed elemental resistance? Can't seem to find it, but that seems like a fun ability to get...

EDIT: nevermind, found it. Had a typo using CTRL+F

[Mystify]

ah, sorry. In that case, it comes down to how many high attack melee characters the party has, and if they have any casters that can add a ton of elemental damage to those attacks. I think a decently built lvl 20 party, even without legendary abilities could take it down, IF they pass their knowledge check to learn of the monster's immunities/abilities.
Yeah, I think you are right. I wasn't thinking of all the ways to add elemental damage to attacks.



Alternatively, if someone took the telekinetic feats, they can dump 3 tons of materials per round on the monster. I don't believe legend has an encumbrance system sadly, so it would come down to DM ruling as to how many tons can the monster lift at most. No need to damage the immortal if you can bury him under a mountain.
I think it could shake off a few tons each round no problem. If nothing else, it could ruinous charge through it.


There is a difference between attacks (things with attack rolls) and offensive actions (things that you do to your enemies to make them more dead). I forget if it's already been errated into the glossary, or only going to be.
That does make it much saner to fight.


So a level 20 legend party should have enough oomph to bring down something like that. That is reassuring.

[Mystify]

Actually, it says "all the damage increases by 1 point every 2 levels you possess". Hopefully that is a typo, because otherwise, it isn't all that powerful.

Also, out of curiosity, where is reversed elemental resistance? Can't seem to find it, but that seems like a fun ability to get...

EDIT: nevermind, found it. Had a typo using CTRL+F

Its a spell. If it was 2 points per every level you possess, on a 2nd level spell, it would outclass damage based tracks. That is part of why the 1d6/level was so obscene. It would overwhelm the base damage of the character. "Oh, I do 1d8+1d8/3 levels", "here,have 1d6/level on top of it!"... its kinda powerful.

and speaking of typos, the "I am ten nijas" spider climb gives you a cl imb speed. With an extra space. It doesn't look like it, but if you copy it, it will show up, and it makes it so a search for "climb speed" will miss it.

[Greenish]

A flat +2/level isn't all that far from +1d6/level (a difference of an average of 1.5).True. But a flat +0.5/level isn't quite that much. An average difference of 3 points per level. :smallamused:


Plus by changing the damage type to [Fire], I believe it bypasses DR, right?That it does, at the cost of becoming subject to [Resistance].


Now to min/max my attack rolls...Arcantric Accuracy doesn't specify the triggering SLAs or spells have to be hostile… Only lasts for a round, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

True. But a flat +0.5/level isn't quite that much. An average difference of 3 points per level. :smallamused:Ahh, I misread the modifier. Still... bonus damage is bonus damage.


That it does, at the cost of becoming subject to [Resistance].And [Vulnerability]. Say hello to Resist Elements (Reversed) loaded into a hostile Incantation for no save!

Also, how would Elemental Specialization synergize with this? It's a spell. It's dealing elemental damage. Does everyone get an additional +1/level damage from Flame Blade?

There's a 2.5/level right there... I just need one more point/level and I've matched it!


Arcantric Accuracy doesn't specify the triggering SLAs or spells have to be hostile… Only lasts for a round, though.

It still has a flat +2, even without the ramping up effect...

[subject42]

I just read the mounts PDF and have one question.

Are mounts automatically granted by training the ride skill, or does the ride skill only grant access to the mounts? I get the impression that mounts count as an item.

[Slipperychicken]

Having just downloaded a PDF, and gave it a once-over. It looks like a far more balanced version of dnd, which I think is very cool. I have a few questions.


1. How long is a [Scene] supposed to last? Is it a fixed or arbitrary length of time?

2. Is there a Q&A somewhere? Could someone link it?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Having just downloaded a PDF, and gave it a once-over. It looks like a far more balanced version of dnd, which I think is very cool. I have a few questions.


1. How long is a [Scene] supposed to last? Is it a fixed or arbitrary length of time?

2. Is there a Q&A somewhere? Could someone link it?

1. It's an arbitrary length of time that might include several [Encounters].

For example: A rogue stealths into a fortress. The front door guards is one Encounter. The random guards patrolling the hallways is another. The locked and trapped door on the treasure room, and possibly the trapped item within the treasure room, is yet another. Then he might have an Encounter or two on the way out. More if he wasn't stealthy enough and a general alarm is sounded.

All of this occurs within one Scene.

[subject42]

1. How long is a [Scene] supposed to last? Is it a fixed or arbitrary length of time?

From page 113 of the PDF:



A duration of [Scene] generally lasts at least three encounters, or until the party takes a two- to four-hour break, whichever is more convenient and reasonable.

[Valixes]

What is you guys' opinion on elementalist? Flavor wise it seems to be a very gratifying track, but I'm not too sure it holds up well in comparison to similar standard-action-munching tracks like Black Tidings. (Except for the 7th circle. Unstable rift: :smalleek: )

[Answerer]

I just read the mounts PDF and have one question.

Are mounts automatically granted by training the ride skill, or does the ride skill only grant access to the mounts? I get the impression that mounts count as an item.
They are in addition to normal items, gained from training Ride. They use the same tiers as items simply to give you a feel for their power level/place within the levels, if I understand correctly.

[Mystify]

What is you guys' opinion on elementalist? Flavor wise it seems to be a very gratifying track, but I'm not too sure it holds up well in comparison to similar standard-action-munching tracks like Black Tidings. (Except for the 7th circle. Unstable rift: :smalleek: )
Black tidings is KOM+1d4/level. It is either a 20ft cone or a 10ft cube. Save for half

elemental burst is KOM+1d6/level, save for half.

dark tidings goes on to offer healing or mobility boosts, batters people, reduces max HP, and eventually blinds or exhausts.

elementalist goes on to give targets vulnerabilities, hits larger areas or adds effects on your basic attack, creates walls or damages attackers, gets cooler area effects, peirces resitances, and then caps off with elemental rift.

Basically, it looks like sage has a constant attack they use, and get some neat bonuses for using it, whilst elementalist gets some bigger effects to throw around. Elementalist will probably hit more people, and will probably boost their damage higher against single targets. The sage is stuck with a cone and a cube, whilst the elementalist is creating walls of fire, clouds of doom, calling damage down all around the battlefield, boosting their damage against the boss, and inflicting nasty status effects on enemies.

I think they are well balanced against each other, just looking at them.

[Zeta Kai]

Is there a Q&A somewhere? Could someone link it?

The IRC channel for Legend is here (http://02.chat.mibbit.com/?server=irc.gamesurge.net&channel=%23Legend). You can chat with the creators of Legend in real time & discuss the game, its rules, the PDF, donations, errata, supplements, adventure modules, & more. Enjoy.

[demigodus]

Its a spell. If it was 2 points per every level you possess, on a 2nd level spell, it would outclass damage based tracks. That is part of why the 1d6/level was so obscene. It would overwhelm the base damage of the character. "Oh, I do 1d8+1d8/3 levels", "here,have 1d6/level on top of it!"... its kinda powerful.

That certainly makes more sense then my ramblings.


Ahh, I misread the modifier. Still... bonus damage is bonus damage.

And [Vulnerability]. Say hello to Resist Elements (Reversed) loaded into a hostile Incantation for no save!

Also, how would Elemental Specialization synergize with this? It's a spell. It's dealing elemental damage. Does everyone get an additional +1/level damage from Flame Blade?

There's a 2.5/level right there... I just need one more point/level and I've matched it!

I think elemental specialization only stacks if the person doing the hitting has the feat. Although what happens if you have elemental specialization and use both flame blade, and call lightning? Do you get a total of +2/level?

If you are doing this with a halfling or a gnome, you can take The Bigger They Are for an extra 0.5/level.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For the blacksmith iconic feat, do the bonuses only apply to the items while you have them equipped? So, say, can I use this to give a +1 to the armor/weapons of my allies? My idea of balance would say "no", but since the character is just improving the weapons/armor, it would make more sense to say "yes".

Got curious after making an artificer type character, and that was the first related feat I could think of.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think elemental specialization only stacks if the person doing the hitting has the feat. Although what happens if you have elemental specialization and use both flame blade, and call lightning? Do you get a total of +2/level? It's your spell, and the spell is doing damage every time the person swings. I guess we'll have to wait for an Official Word on the topic.

There's a few other synergies I've found as well... this is certainly going to be interesting.

[Tenno Seremel]

Flame Blade makes all weapon damage elemental so you might want Shaman in your party.

EDIT: eh…


Also, how would Elemental Specialization synergize with this? It's a spell. It's dealing elemental damage. Does everyone get an additional +1/level damage from Flame Blade?
AFAIU Elemental Specialization works only on direct damage spells, which Flame Blade is not.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Flame Blade makes all weapon damage elemental so you might want Shaman in your party.

AFAIU Elemental Specialization works only on direct damage spells, which Flame Blade is not.


Spells you cast that deal elemental damage
deal additional damage of that element equal to your
character level.

It doesn't say it only works on direct damage. It says spells you cast that deal elemental damage. If you cast flame blade, it deals elemental damage every time the targeted ally or allies takes a swing.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind such an errata or clarification, but it does not, currently, state such.

[Tenno Seremel]

It doesn't say it only works on direct damage. It says spells you cast that deal elemental damage. If you cast flame blade, it deals elemental damage every time the targeted ally or allies takes a swing.


Or… it converts your damage to elemental and boosts damage output. A buff. Clarification would be nice, I agree.

[Mighty_Chicken]

Ooo! Ooo! Answer me!

I did not understand what the [Mounted] weapon quality is for. If I can use any Special weapon as a Main Weapon whenever I want, I can Use any Special Weapon as a 1d8 damage weapon while riding and as a 2d6 damage weapon when using both hands. Amirite?

Also, thanks A LOT for this system! Specially the multiclassing and item part. Even if I never play it (and I intend playing it some day) it had give me a lot of refreshing ideas.

The reason why I'm not playing it is because I dig low-fantasy and it seems I would have to homebrew the system very heavily to make it less fantastic. I mean, the magic system is fine, but things like being able to fly at 9th level are too deep rooted in the system to just take them out... any sugestions?

[Zejety]

Track selection is online! Feedback is welcome.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCG.html

[AmberVael]

You know, a question just popped up in my head.

What is the point of the flight options in Acrobatics and Athletics? By the time you can hit those DCs reliably, you can get flight from tracks (Monk, Demon, probably some others), from the Wings of War feat, or from an item- and all way better options than the skills in question.

I guess the skills are less expensive options, but flight is such a nifty thing to have, and so easy to get a hold of, that I can't imagine someone relying on just the skills.

Am I missing something? Or are those DCs and the effects they have really too high and too little respectively to make it worthwhile?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea and feel it gives the skills, I'm just not sure I'd ever make a character that would seriously use them.

[Claudius Maximus]

Ooo! Ooo! Answer me!

I did not understand what the [Mounted] weapon quality is for. If I can use any Special weapon as a Main Weapon whenever I want, I can Use any Special Weapon as a 1d8 damage weapon while riding and as a 2d6 damage weapon when using both hands. Amirite?

Mounted is dumb, and is getting revised at some point. There are a few alternate mundane weapons system on the table right now, since the current one does have a few flaws.

[Greenish]

What about [Guardian]? I'm not too enamored with some one-handers being randomly usable with a shield while others are not.

[Lagren]

What about [Guardian]? I'm not too enamored with some one-handers being randomly usable with a shield while others are not.

This is specifically being addressed, IIRC.

[Shadow Lord]

Is it acceptable to print out a copy of the .pdf of this game, for purposes of Group- and Personal-use?

[Doc Roc]

Is it acceptable to print out a copy of the .pdf of this game, for purposes of Group- and Personal-use?

Absolutely.

[demigodus]

Track selection is online! Feedback is welcome.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCG.html

I really can't wait for the completion of this. Thank you for your efforts.


You know, a question just popped up in my head.

What is the point of the flight options in Acrobatics and Athletics? By the time you can hit those DCs reliably, you can get flight from tracks (Monk, Demon, probably some others), from the Wings of War feat, or from an item- and all way better options than the skills in question.

I guess the skills are less expensive options, but flight is such a nifty thing to have, and so easy to get a hold of, that I can't imagine someone relying on just the skills.

Am I missing something? Or are those DCs and the effects they have really too high and too little respectively to make it worthwhile?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea and feel it gives the skills, I'm just not sure I'd ever make a character that would seriously use them.

Considering flying for 3 rounds is just 5 less on the DC then creating a flying city or a fortress, I would agree that those two skills are a tad underpowered. Especially given how much investment would be needed to reliably make those checks.

[Valixes]

Black tidings is KOM+1d4/level. It is either a 20ft cone or a 10ft cube. Save for half

elemental burst is KOM+1d6/level, save for half.

dark tidings goes on to offer healing or mobility boosts, batters people, reduces max HP, and eventually blinds or exhausts.

elementalist goes on to give targets vulnerabilities, hits larger areas or adds effects on your basic attack, creates walls or damages attackers, gets cooler area effects, peirces resitances, and then caps off with elemental rift.

Basically, it looks like sage has a constant attack they use, and get some neat bonuses for using it, whilst elementalist gets some bigger effects to throw around. Elementalist will probably hit more people, and will probably boost their damage higher against single targets. The sage is stuck with a cone and a cube, whilst the elementalist is creating walls of fire, clouds of doom, calling damage down all around the battlefield, boosting their damage against the boss, and inflicting nasty status effects on enemies.

I think they are well balanced against each other, just looking at them.

:smallconfused: My problem with Elementalist mainly is laid out in the sentence following the opening paragraph; "Unless otherwise stated, each ability can be activated once per [Encounter], as a standard action." And the meaning of the previous paragraph; Each circle that has multiple abilities listed [Barring the 7th] treats those abilities as choices.
That leaves Elementalist with the bread-and-butter of elemental burst, and all the other abilities are one-round wonders (That you only get a select few of anyways). That also means that one of the main draws - vulnerability - is once per encounter, and it states that the effect ends at the end of your next round; essentially allowing it to be used for one turn. My worry is that against more than one durable target, because the sage doesn't have a once-per-encounter limit on all of their AoE abilities, the elementalist will severely fall behind.

[Draz74]

Track selection is online! Feedback is welcome.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCG.html

Nice! I wish my HTML skills were this good.

[Chambers]

Has Bravado been discussed yet?

I'm not sure why someone would take the penalty option when spending points to heal. By reading the feat it seems that you just have to spend 1 point and then you get the listed healing, which is 3x your KDM. Spending more than 1 point doesn't seem to have an effect on how much you heal, so I don't see why someone would want to spend more than 1, or take a penalty.

Or...does the "even take a penalty" line mean that the person could use the healing power without having earned any points yet? I could see that happening, but if that's the intent it's not clearly written.

[subject42]

Minor quibble:

Page 169 has an item called the "Crackle Bag" that is referred to as the "cracker-nuts bag" in the benefit text.

[Tenno Seremel]

Track selection is online! Feedback is welcome.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCG.html

Protection: The Seven Circles of the Bastion does not seem to be there.

[Madcrafter]

I've decided that instead of trying to compete to get into Chambers's game to try out the system in actual play, I will try my hand at converting a 3.x adventure module to run with my usual group (who have expressed great interest in the system).
So are there any suggestions of modules that might be good to convert? Hopefully a medium length, level 5-12ish one. (I would use the RHoD conversion that is being done already, but unfortunately its not done yet).

[Zejety]

Nice! I wish my HTML skills were this good.
I don't know anything beyond basic formatting in HTML. It's all Flash. ;)


Protection: The Seven Circles of the Bastion does not seem to be there.
Thanks, good catch!
I accidentally flagged it as exclusive in place of Judgment. :smallredface:

[demigodus]

Has Bravado been discussed yet?

I'm not sure why someone would take the penalty option when spending points to heal. By reading the feat it seems that you just have to spend 1 point and then you get the listed healing, which is 3x your KDM. Spending more than 1 point doesn't seem to have an effect on how much you heal, so I don't see why someone would want to spend more than 1, or take a penalty.

Or...does the "even take a penalty" line mean that the person could use the healing power without having earned any points yet? I could see that happening, but if that's the intent it's not clearly written.

I read it as being able to heal without having earned any points yet (or after you used up all your points). And I read spending multiple points at once as healing that many times more as a result. So spend 6 points (from +4 to -2) = heal 12x your KDM

[AmberVael]

Thanks, good catch!
I accidentally flagged it as exclusive in place of Judgment. :smallredface:

Speaking of missing tracks, I don't see the Elemental tracks in there, and I think it might also be missing other bonus tracks. Are you planning to put them in, or is this only using the content of the main pdf?

[Zejety]

Speaking of missing tracks, I don't see the Elemental tracks in there, and I think it might also be missing other bonus tracks. Are you planning to put them in, or is this only using the content of the main pdf?

Yes, it currently lacks all bonus content but adding them is on my to-do list and can be done easily (I'll probably do it tomorrow).

The worst thing is the Elemental Pony with its multiple racial tracks but I have already covered that in the current implementation.

[Cieyrin]

I've decided that instead of trying to compete to get into Chambers's game to try out the system in actual play, I will try my hand at converting a 3.x adventure module to run with my usual group (who have expressed great interest in the system).
So are there any suggestions of modules that might be good to convert? Hopefully a medium length, level 5-12ish one. (I would use the RHoD conversion that is being done already, but unfortunately its not done yet).

A significant amount of it is converted, though, so you could start playing it while Draz continues his great works.

[Draz74]

(I would use the RHoD conversion that is being done already, but unfortunately its not done yet).


A significant amount of it is converted, though, so you could start playing it while Draz continues his great works.

Huh, I hadn't realized anyone besides Doc Roc was actually a fan of this project!

Well, I think this means I need some more people contributing to the project. Particularly all the random MM monsters ... I just don't have the energy to do all those. Other people should feel free to come up with them and post them on the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228122)! (Fortunately, Doc Roc counsels that it would be appropriate to stat most of the MM monsters simply as Elite Mooks.)

I pretty much have the unique "boss" monsters done except for formatting, which actually takes quite a while. The exception is Varanthian; I'm really not sure at all how to run him without Grapple rules.

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I'm agreeing with Ciyerin here: there is enough converted that you can start playing, and even help me figure things out along the way.

[Madcrafter]

I'll look into maybe doing some of those then. Hopefully we'd be able to start this weekend (though I still have to read through some parts of the module, having never played it before).

On the topic of monsters though, I'm wondering if many might have custom tracks dedicated to them in the upcoming MM, to represent unique abilities that aren't so easy to get with the current selections (and so not all of them end up being fairly similar, with only fluff difference). (I'm thinking of creatures like the gibbering mouther or the like, where maybe the abilities are available, but are spread over more than four tracks at different levels).

[Mystify]

:smallconfused: My problem with Elementalist mainly is laid out in the sentence following the opening paragraph; "Unless otherwise stated, each ability can be activated once per [Encounter], as a standard action." And the meaning of the previous paragraph; Each circle that has multiple abilities listed [Barring the 7th] treats those abilities as choices.
That leaves Elementalist with the bread-and-butter of elemental burst, and all the other abilities are one-round wonders (That you only get a select few of anyways). That also means that one of the main draws - vulnerability - is once per encounter, and it states that the effect ends at the end of your next round; essentially allowing it to be used for one turn. My worry is that against more than one durable target, because the sage doesn't have a once-per-encounter limit on all of their AoE abilities, the elementalist will severely fall behind.
It depends on how many rounds the combat lasts. You can also select more passive abilities to be less dependent on spending actions on the track.
I feel like the elementalist gets better abilities that are usable 1/encounter each, whilst sage as a stronger baseline of power. The black tiding is stronger than elemental burst. It either covers a much larger area with slightly less damage, or a moderately larger area with the same damage. it then has some nice side effects to help the party. But that is all it does. It doesn't surpass it, it just stays at that same baseline, with a few more perks.
The elementalist baseline is elemental burst. Its not as powerful as the black tidings, but it is easier to get off; the sage has to find a clear spot to drop their AoE, the elementalist can precisely burn the opponent. Many times you won't be able to hit multiple opponents with that burst, which makes the elementalist just as good at the damage. The large cone has to originate from the sage, so they have top be able to maneuver into a good position, even if the cluster is present. Elementalist can drop a fireball from across the map. However, the elementalist can also spike it up for a few rounds, throwing out a bunch of powerful effects. Weaken the enemy to fire, then have everyone deal as much fire to it as they can. Drop an AoE on whatever part of the battlefeild they wish, create persistant effects till the end of combat, etc.

Track selection is online! Feedback is welcome.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCG.html
Looks good, this will be very useful. One thing I noticed is that being a race does not give you the KDM and KOM associated with that race, you still get it from your class. Also, path of rage was selectable using int as KOM.

[AmberVael]

While the thread is on the subject of Elementalist, I want to ask... what is up with Elemental Boost? I'm very certain that it needs errata, because I have no idea what it is supposed to do.

Taking the rules as they're written, Elemental Boost takes a standard action to active, and may only be used once per encounter. It adds a secondary effect to your Elemental Burst.
Here's the problem- no duration is mentioned for Elemental Boost. Does it just last forever? That doesn't seem right. So is it intended to be passive and long lasting? Because if so, it doesn't have that wording (as Elemental Resistance demonstrates right above it).

My guess is that it is supposed to be a passive, continually active ability, but I'm not sure about that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Looks good, this will be very useful. One thing I noticed is that being a race does not give you the KDM and KOM associated with that race, you still get it from your class. Also, path of rage was selectable using int as KOM.

How did you get it to spit out a KDM/KOM?

[demigodus]

How did you get it to spit out a KDM/KOM?

Pick a class like the sage where you get to choose KOM/KDM (sage might be the only class that has that). It will bring up a choice for KOM/KDM

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Pick a class like the sage where you get to choose KOM/KDM (sage might be the only class that has that). It will bring up a choice for KOM/KDM

Oh, I see now. Very nice! I can't wait to see what else is going to happen with it.

[Flickerdart]

Rogues need to be able to choose KAMs in the "tracks" screen, since a multiclassing Rogue can orphan himself out of a present KOM or KDM.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay, I only just stumbled on Legend, so I'm a real noob here, but I've got a question:

I notice as I was reading the class list that the idea of a basic "fighter" type character isn't really discussed. There ARE classes that fill that role in the party, of course, like the Paladin and the Barbarian, but it doesn't seem like they fit the kind of archetype I'm talking about. The generic warrior/soldier kind of guy. The Barbarian doesn't really work because that's all about chanelling your ancestors and your wrath and stuff, and Paladins don't because of the focus on justice and beings kind of divinely empowered. Rangers and Rogues don't really fit the bill either. What if I'm trying to play a disciplined spearman who doesn't have any strong beliefs in justice and stuff like that, becoming stronger through repeated practice instead of focusing willpower, etc?

Furthermore, none of the classes seem to fit the "Gandalf/Merlin/Dumbledore" wizard archetype as far as I've read. Or the Bard.

Am I misunderstanding things or are these archetypes going to appear later or something?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, I only just stumbled on Legend, so I'm a real noob here, but I've got a question:

I notice as I was reading the class list that the idea of a basic "fighter" type character isn't really discussed. There ARE classes that fill that role in the party, of course, like the Paladin and the Barbarian, but it doesn't seem like they fit the kind of archetype I'm talking about. The generic warrior/soldier kind of guy. The Barbarian doesn't really work because that's all about chanelling your ancestors and your wrath and stuff, and Paladins don't because of the focus on justice and beings kind of divinely empowered. Rangers and Rogues don't really fit the bill either. What if I'm trying to play a disciplined spearman who doesn't have any strong beliefs in justice and stuff like that, becoming stronger through repeated practice instead of focusing willpower, etc?

Furthermore, none of the classes seem to fit the "Gandalf/Merlin/Dumbledore" wizard archetype as far as I've read. Or the Bard.

Am I misunderstanding things or are these archetypes going to appear later or something?

Sage fits Bard pretty darn well, Runesong Scholar also helps.

As far as a Professional Soldier... one of the Ranger tracks is called just that. You can very easily build a Ranger into a soldier of fortune without any major difficulties.

As far as classical 'nerdy wizards'... well, Gandalf is, again Sage, or maybe Tactician. Remember, he was using Glamdring more than he was his actual Staff. As far as Merlin... True Mage + Tactician ought to cover him fairly well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay, I only just stumbled on Legend, so I'm a real noob here, but I've got a question:

I notice as I was reading the class list that the idea of a basic "fighter" type character isn't really discussed. There ARE classes that fill that role in the party, of course, like the Paladin and the Barbarian, but it doesn't seem like they fit the kind of archetype I'm talking about. The generic warrior/soldier kind of guy. The Barbarian doesn't really work because that's all about chanelling your ancestors and your wrath and stuff, and Paladins don't because of the focus on justice and beings kind of divinely empowered. Rangers and Rogues don't really fit the bill either. What if I'm trying to play a disciplined spearman who doesn't have any strong beliefs in justice and stuff like that, becoming stronger through repeated practice instead of focusing willpower, etc?

Furthermore, none of the classes seem to fit the "Gandalf/Merlin/Dumbledore" wizard archetype as far as I've read. Or the Bard.

Am I misunderstanding things or are these archetypes going to appear later or something?

1. Being a barbarian or ranger then trading out the tracks that you think don't fit (although personally, I find barbarian super easy to refluff) with the other class's tracks fills soldier roles.

2. Those are mentors, not PCs. Sage and tactician of higher level work.

3. Bard? Sage and tactician with refluffing. Put it on a rogue, ranger, or barbarian base, and trade out for spellcasting tracks, or vice versa, if you want something else.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As far as a Professional Soldier... one of the Ranger tracks is called just that.
I notice that that track deals mainly with the creation of traps and surprises to leave behind for your enemies. I'm talking more about the rank and file hoplite, marching lock-step with his brothers and forming a shield-wall and whatnot.

[Lagren]

Tracks for a professional soldier archetype:
Ranger: "Battle's Tempering", "Professional Soldier", "Iron Magi"
Barbarian: "Path of Destruction"
Paladin: "Heroica", if you want to fight with an ally particularly effectively.
Extra Tracks: Knight

Currently, I'd probably go Tempering, Destruction, Knight.

[Hiro Protagonest]

...Zousha missed my post, didn't he.

[Zeta Kai]

I'm talking more about the rank and file hoplite, marching lock-step with his brothers and forming a shield-wall and whatnot.

Did you say Hoplite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11363940#post11363940)?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

...Zousha missed my post, didn't he.
You must have posted it while I was typing my response. Sowwy. :smallredface:

Tracks for a professional soldier archetype:
Ranger: "Battle's Tempering", "Professional Soldier", "Iron Magi"
Barbarian: "Path of Destruction"
Paladin: "Heroica", if you want to fight with an ally particularly effectively.
Extra Tracks: Knight

Currently, I'd probably go Tempering, Destruction, Knight.
See, but that still requires you to take one of those classes, implying a different backstory than "I joined the army as a normal soldier, no fancy special ops or elite bodyguard unit or anything like that. I'm just a rank-and-file army man."

[Hiro Protagonest]

You must have posted it while I was typing my response. Sowwy. :smallredface:

Yeah, I figured that happened. But I didn't want it to go unnoticed.

[Lord_Gareth]

See, but that still requires you to take one of those classes, implying a different backstory than "I joined the army as a normal soldier, no fancy special ops or elite bodyguard unit or anything like that. I'm just a rank-and-file army man."

....Umm, no it doesn't. Not only is refluffing a thing, but in Legend, Refluffing is a serious thing. Unlike WotC's basic assumptions (which are seriously redonkulous, by the by) that class = profession = worldview, any given track in Legend is a description of the kinds of powers you get, with a 'class' being a collection of thematically linked tracks that have an easy fluff connection. Scrub off the written-in-pencil serial numbers and pick up the tracks you want for your concept.

[Madcrafter]

See, but that still requires you to take one of those classes, implying a different backstory than "I joined the army as a normal soldier, no fancy special ops or elite bodyguard unit or anything like that. I'm just a rank-and-file army man."

Then you just refluff how you like. The tracks are not supposed to force any particular flavour on a character, and that combination could just as easily be an accomplished ordinary fighter rather than a specially trained soldier.

EDIT: Decaninjas!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

....Umm, no it doesn't. Not only is refluffing a thing, but in Legend, Refluffing is a serious thing. Unlike WotC's basic assumptions (which are seriously redonkulous, by the by) that class = profession = worldview, any given track in Legend is a description of the kinds of powers you get, with a 'class' being a collection of thematically linked tracks that have an easy fluff connection. Scrub off the written-in-pencil serial numbers and pick up the tracks you want for your concept.
But a lot of them seem like they get magical abilities, that's not what this archetype's about. It's about being an ordinary, plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

But a lot of them seem like they get magical abilities, that's not what this archetype's about. It's about being an ordinary, plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal.

Since when does barbarian get magical abilities?

Also, you're not rank-and-file past level 1, maybe level 2.

[Answerer]

But a lot of them seem like they get magical abilities, that's not what this archetype's about. It's about being an ordinary, plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal.
Like 3.5, "plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal" isn't really a PC past level, say, 5. Legend is just honest about this, while 3.5 lies and pretends that it works when it doesn't.

Furthermore, as mentioned, at absolutely no point is it correct to feel in any way constrained by the names of abilities, tracks, or classes in Legend.

[Madcrafter]

But a lot of them seem like they get magical abilities, that's not what this archetype's about. It's about being an ordinary, plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal.

The suggested combination doesn't have any magical abilities, it just hits stuff with a weapon. And as was mentioned, playing at a very low level will also help with a less magic feel.

[Lord_Gareth]

Echoing the above, with this addition: in addition to being a hero, you're a player character. You're special even if you don't know it yet. Certainly he was nothing special in his backstory, but one must ask this question: if there really is nothing special about the character, why are they Marcus Samuellson and not 'Mangled Corpse 53 - Decapitated'?

[Chambers]

I'll chime in and agree that there needs to be a Fighter class. The Knight could be one of its Tracks. The Professional Soldier track focuses too much on traps to be a generic soldier, and the Iron Magi is too esoteric for a regular fighter. Those tracks are fine, but even with refluffing they don't say fighter to me.

The Fighter could have a track that focuses on improved DC's for combat maneuvers and special weapon tactics, something related to pure skill at arms. The weapon style feats in D&D would be a good source of inspiration for that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Echoing the above, with this addition: in addition to being a hero, you're a player character. You're special even if you don't know it yet. Certainly he was nothing special in his backstory, but one must ask this question: if there really is nothing special about the character, why are they Marcus Samuellson and not 'Mangled Corpse 53 - Decapitated'
Maybe he was just lucky?

Since when does barbarian get magical abilities?
Well, from what I saw when I skimmed it, it reminded me a lot of the fluff for 4e's Barbarian: "My rage is spiritual in nature and I can call upon my ancestors and the power of the land to enhance it."

[Lord_Gareth]

Maybe he was just lucky?

Luck can be an exceptional attribute, and as he continues to survive conflicts stressful to his body, his mind, and his soul (read: adventuring) his personal power grows. He learns more advanced abilities through practice and willpower. If some of these abilities seem magical, it's because his intense training, his personal fate gravity, is telling physics precisely where to stick it. That he started from humble beginnings with no friends but Lady Fortune's crooked smile only makes the tale of his eventual transcendence more awe-inspiring to those that will never achieve such heights.

[Answerer]

Like Wizard, Fighter doesn't say enough, IMO. It's a bad thing to have something that generic. Even though Legend's classes can be used to support a staggering variety of archetypes, the relatively narrow focus of the default names (relative to the full spectrum of things that you could do with that class) indicates how specific your character is supposed to be.

If there's nothing special about you, why are you a PC?

[Chambers]

If there's nothing special about you, why are you a PC?

I dunno, maybe ask Roy that question. He's a single classed Fighter in an edition of the game when the core Fighter is well regarded as a very bad class. But he's a great character, and that's because your character isn't just your class.

[Lord_Gareth]

I dunno, maybe ask Roy that question. He's a single classed Fighter in an edition of the game when the core Fighter is well regarded as a very bad class. But he's a great character, and that's because your character isn't just your class.

It's also because Roy has the class feature "Utilize Plot-Enabling House Rules". Any game that doesn't allow tons of ad-hoc tactics of the variety he uses would see Roy dead as a doornail inside of seventy strips.