What if there is no Snarl?

[Edric O]

It's a simple idea, and given how these forums are rife with speculation, I wouldn't be surprised if someone already ninja'd me.

But, you see, I was reading people's opinions about what the gods would do if they knew about The Plan, or about how Redcloak should have trapped Tsukiko's soul and thrown it to the Snarl, etc., and something struck me about all these ideas:

We're all assuming the Snarl is real - and that the scribble stories (both Shojo's and the Lore of the Crimson Mantle) - are true. But what if they are, in fact, lies?

The one time any character got to look into a rift and lived to tell the tale, there was no Snarl in sight. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) What if the Snarl is a lie told by the various gods to manipulate their followers? What if Redcloak's secret knowledge about the effect of the Ritual is just as false as the stuff he told Xykon? What if the Dark One is planning something completely different - something he does not want to share even with his high priest, either because the high priest might not like it or because the Dark One can't take any risk of anyone else finding out?

All we really know for a fact is that (a) the good gods want the rifts safely sealed, and (b) the Dark One wants a ritual performed on a gate that (probably) has the effect of plane shifting it. There is no real evidence that the reason the Dark One wants to shift the gate is to use it to blackmail the other gods with the Snarl. He may, in fact, want a direct connection from his outer plane to that lovely planet we saw in strip #672... or maybe something else entirely.

Your thoughts?

[EmperorSarda]

What if the Snarl is a lie told by the various gods to manipulate their followers?

Then they are all doing an awful job of manipulating their followers except for the Dark One. In the 60 or so years between the Order of the Scribble and the Order of the stick, maybe 200 people have known about the gates and rifts. The paladins and the followers of others. Excluding goblins of course.

So they're not doing a good job of it if that is the case.

[Math_Mage]

There has been plenty of speculation about the Snarl's true nature before. Plenty of people aren't assuming anything about it. For one thing, we haven't seen any sign of the Snarl's malicious intrusions through the present rifts, the way they were portrayed in the Order of the Scribble's time. There's been speculation that the Dark One is lying or ignorant or both, or that he may want goblin supremacy rather than goblin equality, or that he may not have goblins' interests at heart at all.

But it's very unlikely that all the gods are lying about the Snarl, because the gods have a blackout on information about the Snarl.

[Edric O]

Hmmm, after going over the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard strips, I realized that all the information ultimately came from Soon, and Soon is said to have acquired it through "diligent study and magical inquiry" together with the rest of the Order of the Scribble. Not through divine revelation.

So, actually, no god other than the Dark One has ever said anything about the Snarl (as far as we know). Therefore, I take back my speculation about the gods possibly manipulating their followers. The only god who could be doing any manipulating here is the Dark One.

It is possible that the Dark One may have interfered in the aforementioned "diligent study and magical inquiry." It is also possible that the Order of the Scribble was misled by some other entity (the IFCC?).

[ti'esar]

This has been suggested before, yes. I personally favor the theory that there was a Snarl, but something happened to it between the time of the Order of the Scribble and when Blackwing looked into the rift. But we don't really know.

[Edric O]

Now I'm wondering... How exactly was Soon able to get information about events that happened before the creation of the current material world - events like the death of the Gods of the East? The only entities that were around to witness it were the gods, and, as far as we've seen, they never told anyone about it. I highly doubt that any kind of magic available to PCs could allow you to pry information from a god's mind against the god's will.

So either (a) some god covertly broke the divine vow of silence, (b) some entity got the Order of the Scribble to believe a false story, or (c) Shojo himself was lying to the Order of the Stick and making stuff up.


This has been suggested before, yes. I personally favor the theory that there was a Snarl, but something happened to it between the time of the Order of the Scribble and when Blackwing looked into the rift. But we don't really know.
But if that was the case, and if the Dark One was being truthful to Redcloak, wouldn't he tell Redcloak about this change? After all, if Blackwing can look into the rift, then surely the Dark One can, too.

[The MunchKING]

Now I'm wondering... How exactly was Soon able to get information about events that happened before the creation of the current material world - events like the death of the Gods of the East?

All we get is Dilligent study (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) and magical inquiries.

[fergo]

Now I'm wondering... How exactly was Soon able to get information about events that happened before the creation of the current material world - events like the death of the Gods of the East? .

It's probably a silly thought, but the first thing that came to me (when you pointed out the discepancy--I never noticed it on my first, second, or third reading :smallwink:) was something to do with physics.

I mean, if the Snarl destroyed the gods (and didn't consume them) then it stands to reason that little bits of godliness are still floating around, which may be able to be looked at with apropriate science/magic. Gods don't decay, after all :smalltongue:.

[/random speculation]

[NinjaStylerobot]

Maybe the gods just built over their first world? And the Dark one wants to just take it over and send all the gobs there?

[Cranica]

One might also note that Shojo is the source of the whole story, who is a highly untrustworthy Chaotic Good ruler who was quite happy to lie to his subjects. It's possible he was embellishing.

[Rusty]

Maybe the Snarl created the other world? And in the process either destroyed itself or weakened itself?

[ArtosSwiftblade]

Rusty's enspoilered suggestion seems feasible.

[Friv]

Rusty's suggestion is certainly reasonable, yeah.

The way I see it, there are really four options, in ascending order of likelihood.

Option #1 - Shojo lied.

This option is staggeringly unlikely. Shojo's story is essentially identical to the one that Redcloak tells to Xykon, although focusing on slightly different bits. For Shojo to have lied, either he and Redcloak or he and the Dark One would have had to create the same fabrication. I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where that would happen.

Option #2 - Soon lied.

Almost as unlikely. If there was no Snarl at all, and Shojo was told that there was, that would require the paladin with the incredibly unbreakable honor to have lied about his wife being killed by the Snarl, and then one of his close friends being killed by the Snarl, in a conspiracy with a dark god to claim the existence of a being that the gods wanted kept secret. This seems... not like something that would happen.

Once we're past those two options, there has to have been a Snarl at some point, because something reached out from the rifts and killed Soon's wife. Only the details could be wrong, which leads us to...

Option #3 - The Dark One lied.

It's conceivable that the Dark One somehow messed with the Order of the Scribble's research, and gave them information about the Snarl that wasn't true. If so, though, he did so in a way that ended up impeding his own goals for years. Still, mistakes do happen, so I'm willing to leave this on the list.

Option #4 - No one lied.

There was a Snarl, and it did do the things everyone says it did, but something has changed since the last time it was sealed. It certainly doesn't seem to be reaching out of the rifts the way that it did the first time around.

[LordRahl6]

You guys make all good points, but if the Snarl doesn't exist then the consequences will forever reshape the characters plans. This is because as we know Xykon and Redcloak are quite literally using one another for their plans. While we don't know the full extent of Xykon's plans, Redcloak's depend on him helping the Dark One get concessions if not control out of the other gods with threat of the Snarl. If the Snarl doesn't exist then there is nothing which will threaten the other gods.

[Obnoxious Hydra]

I also agree with Rusty. Here's some ideas I've had...


1. The Snarl IS the planet
Something made the Snarl transform into the planet within the planet. It's possible, seeing as the Snarl is made from the threads of the universe, it might have been re-knitted into the planet. As the Snarl was very knotted and messed up though, perhaps the world is one of chaos, war and confusion? One where all the gods ideas clash with each other?


2. The Snarl is still there, and it made the planet
The Snarl is a being of anger, that seeks to destroy. Perhaps it made the planet, either from it's own threads or some other way, forcing itself to create a semi-neat creation, which it could then destroy in order to satisfy the destructive urge. It would then create another, destroy that, and repeat the cycle.


3. Inception
There is no Snarl. Within the planet within the planet is a planet within the planet within the planet. Inside the planet within the planet within the planet, there is yet another planet, and it continues infinetely.

[Cazaril]

3. Inception
There is no Snarl. Within the planet within the planet is a planet within the planet within the planet. Inside the planet within the planet within the planet, there is yet another planet, and it continues infinetely.

Turtles all the way down! :smallbiggrin:

My theory, which I just made up while reading this thread, is that the Dark One found a way to either remove the snarl or to transform it into the world that Blackwing sees, and the ritual is intended as a way to transport the Goblin people to a new world that they can have to themselves. Either the ritual would create a gate on the material plane for the living Goblinoids to go through, or it would serve as a sort of afterlife for the army or goblin martyrs.

Another possibility is that the rest of the gods have been secretly combating the problem of the Rifts themselves, by building a second layer of protective planet around the Snarl. In which case, the above theory about the Dark One wanting to take it over for the goblin peoples is still possible.

[theNater]

Now I'm wondering... How exactly was Soon able to get information about events that happened before the creation of the current material world - events like the death of the Gods of the East? The only entities that were around to witness it were the gods, and, as far as we've seen, they never told anyone about it. I highly doubt that any kind of magic available to PCs could allow you to pry information from a god's mind against the god's will.

So either (a) some god covertly broke the divine vow of silence, (b) some entity got the Order of the Scribble to believe a false story, or (c) Shojo himself was lying to the Order of the Stick and making stuff up.
There is magic available to PCs which summons up information from nothing. Legend Lore, for example, can provide information about legendary events(and world-creation and godslaying certainly count as that), even if such information has never been shared.

[irenicObserver]

Maybe without anything to destroy, the Snarl being a manifestation of deific rage, died down and reconciled the god's conflicting decisions.

[Lord Badguy]

It could be that Soon just couldn't comprehend what he was up against, and the Snarl was just his way of conceptualizing what he saw in a way that could make sense to him...

My pet theory is thatthe gates are holding up "the fourth wall"

[Toofey]

Whoa...


Anyway, why would they have to be lies, maybe the snarl got bored and made a world of itself.

[Chronos]

My theory, which I just made up while reading this thread, is that the Dark One found a way to either remove the snarl or to transform it into the world that Blackwing sees, and the ritual is intended as a way to transport the Goblin people to a new world that they can have to themselves. Either the ritual would create a gate on the material plane for the living Goblinoids to go through, or it would serve as a sort of afterlife for the army or goblin martyrs.
Problem with this theory is, if that's the case, then why did the Dark One lie? He has to have considered the possibility that some of his high priests might shirk from the notion of possibly unmaking the souls of everyone in the world, but "let's all go to this brand-new virgin planet" is pretty unoffensive to everyone.

[Math_Mage]

It could be that Soon just couldn't comprehend what he was up against, and the Snarl was just his way of conceptualizing what he saw in a way that could make sense to him...

My pet theory is thatthe gates are holding up "the fourth wall"

It's us down there? I like.

[ti'esar]

Rusty's suggestion is certainly reasonable, yeah.

The way I see it, there are really four options, in ascending order of likelihood.

Option #1 - Shojo lied.

This option is staggeringly unlikely. Shojo's story is essentially identical to the one that Redcloak tells to Xykon, although focusing on slightly different bits. For Shojo to have lied, either he and Redcloak or he and the Dark One would have had to create the same fabrication. I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where that would happen.

Option #2 - Soon lied.

Almost as unlikely. If there was no Snarl at all, and Shojo was told that there was, that would require the paladin with the incredibly unbreakable honor to have lied about his wife being killed by the Snarl, and then one of his close friends being killed by the Snarl, in a conspiracy with a dark god to claim the existence of a being that the gods wanted kept secret. This seems... not like something that would happen.

Once we're past those two options, there has to have been a Snarl at some point, because something reached out from the rifts and killed Soon's wife. Only the details could be wrong, which leads us to...

Option #3 - The Dark One lied.

It's conceivable that the Dark One somehow messed with the Order of the Scribble's research, and gave them information about the Snarl that wasn't true. If so, though, he did so in a way that ended up impeding his own goals for years. Still, mistakes do happen, so I'm willing to leave this on the list.

Option #4 - No one lied.

There was a Snarl, and it did do the things everyone says it did, but something has changed since the last time it was sealed. It certainly doesn't seem to be reaching out of the rifts the way that it did the first time around.

There's also option #5 - the other gods, or at least the ones who told him, lied to the Dark One. He is an ascended goblin and wasn't present at the creation.

EDIT:
But if that was the case, and if the Dark One was being truthful to Redcloak, wouldn't he tell Redcloak about this change? After all, if Blackwing can look into the rift, then surely the Dark One can, too.

What makes you think he can? We really don't know enough about how the rifts function - it's entirely possible that the only way to get information on the current state of things inside is to physically look into them.

[Binks]

Another possibility is that the rest of the gods have been secretly combating the problem of the Rifts themselves, by building a second layer of protective planet around the Snarl. In which case, the above theory about the Dark One wanting to take it over for the goblin peoples is still possible.
That is a very interesting idea. The gods could have been building a secondary wall ever since the snarl first began to break through the rifts. They wouldn't tell their followers (the information blackout), are clearly capable of doing it (they hid in another place while building the current world, so they can clearly build across planes, and they're clearly capable of building a world to imprison the snarl, they did it before after all) and have good reason to build it (prison's breaking, add another wall. Not a perfect solution, but avoids having to destroy the current world. I like this theory quite a bit.

[Douglas]

Now I'm wondering... How exactly was Soon able to get information about events that happened before the creation of the current material world - events like the death of the Gods of the East? The only entities that were around to witness it were the gods, and, as far as we've seen, they never told anyone about it. I highly doubt that any kind of magic available to PCs could allow you to pry information from a god's mind against the god's will.

So either (a) some god covertly broke the divine vow of silence, (b) some entity got the Order of the Scribble to believe a false story, or (c) Shojo himself was lying to the Order of the Stick and making stuff up.
I'd guess the gods collectively decided to willingly give the information to the Order of the Scribble in order to help them in their quest to fix the holes and convince them to suppress the knowledge afterwords.

[suzaliscious]

I have no doubt this theory is correct.

I also have no doubt that is not correct in any of the ways thus far proposed.

The Snarly twist at the end, and I'm convinced at this point that there will be one, will probably not be something as cheap as divine deception. Consider that something like that will render most of the main characters' lives - both protagonist and antagonist - entirely meaningless and undercut the enjoyability and integrity of the comic as a creative work.

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

Another fact from SoD


Remember that as far as the Dark One knew (and by extension RedCloak) there was only one rift: Lirian's.
It wasn't until she accidentally spilled the beans to Xykon that RC learned of the other four gates.
So even the Dark One allies didn't tell him of the other 4 gates.

Within the timeframe between the goblin cleric death (while experimenting with the chicken) and Soon's wife death; And RC destruction of Lirian's gate (which is the first time we see the rift in "real time");
Something definitively happened.

The only times we see the Snarl attacking is in "crayon time"; Not even ~20 years ago (Lirian's gate destruction) do we see any sort of action from the rift
just my 2 cents

[TheGuitar]

Just a thought... but the gates were created to function on all of the planes of existence, so it's possible that, until a gate is controlled/all 5 gates are destroyed that the hole simply leads to another plane of existence. it's never said exactly how the gates function within the other planes.

[Dr.Epic]

In that case...would that make OotS Monster A-Go-Go?

[ti'esar]

Just a thought... but the gates were created to function on all of the planes of existence, so it's possible that, until a gate is controlled/all 5 gates are destroyed that the hole simply leads to another plane of existence. it's never said exactly how the gates function within the other planes.

Huh. I actually never thought of that. I'd be surprised if it's true, though - it feels like something of a cop-out.

[Obnoxious Hydra]

That is a very interesting idea. The gods could have been building a secondary wall ever since the snarl first began to break through the rifts. They wouldn't tell their followers (the information blackout), are clearly capable of doing it (they hid in another place while building the current world, so they can clearly build across planes, and they're clearly capable of building a world to imprison the snarl, they did it before after all) and have good reason to build it (prison's breaking, add another wall. Not a perfect solution, but avoids having to destroy the current world. I like this theory quite a bit.

But, where would the gods get material to create a world/second barrier? Assuming that what has been said is the truth, the gods need to completely unmake the world in order to fix the five small gaps in the outerworld, hence why the gates were made instead.

[King of Nowhere]

It is perfectly possiblle that sealing the rifts affected the snarl in some way, changing it and maybe starting someting that created the world inside the rift.
If - IF - that happened, it is perfectly likely the gods don't know about that. So the dark one's blackmailing plan may still work even if there is no snarl, just like those guys attempting robberies with toy guns - the difference being that the dark one himself would not know his gun would not fire.

Or, there are dozens possible theories. But I don't think the crayons lied, we have so many independent confirmations for that.
Even if there is no longer a snarl, there had been a snarl at some point.

P.S. rich confirmed that the world inside the rift is not our world. And, frankly, I would really not have liked the idea if it would have been.

[Binks]

But, where would the gods get material to create a world/second barrier? Assuming that what has been said is the truth, the gods need to completely unmake the world in order to fix the five small gaps in the outerworld, hence why the gates were made instead.
Why would they need material? Based on what's been stated thusfar of the OOTS cosmology the gods can weave worlds from basically nothing (whatever that string stuff is, the stuff the snarl is made of).

And just because they need to unmake the current world doesn't mean they can't make a second one inside the barrier. They can't fix the rifts because they would need access to the strands that are currently composing the current world, but if they can make more strands they could make a second world without having to worry about breaking the current one.

[Douglas]

Why would they need material? Based on what's been stated thusfar of the OOTS cosmology the gods can weave worlds from basically nothing (whatever that string stuff is, the stuff the snarl is made of).

And just because they need to unmake the current world doesn't mean they can't make a second one inside the barrier. They can't fix the rifts because they would need access to the strands that are currently composing the current world, but if they can make more strands they could make a second world without having to worry about breaking the current one.
Reading that story again, it seems to me that A) the gods found the strands, they didn't make them, B) there was a limited supply of strands, and C) all of those strands were used to create the one world (including associated planes). So no, the gods could not create a second world without breaking the current one.

[Obnoxious Hydra]

Why would they need material? Based on what's been stated thusfar of the OOTS cosmology the gods can weave worlds from basically nothing (whatever that string stuff is, the stuff the snarl is made of).

Sorry, that's the material I meant. Just thought it would be obvious.




And just because they need to unmake the current world doesn't mean they can't make a second one inside the barrier. They can't fix the rifts because they would need access to the strands that are currently composing the current world, but if they can make more strands they could make a second world without having to worry about breaking the current one.

They can't make more strands, otherwise they wouldn't have needed to argue over the strands originally, and the Snarl would have never been created.

It's possible that they have found more strings in another universe, but I think it's probably unlikely.

[Binks]

Re-reading the story I see no evidence there was a limit on the number of strands. The gods didn't create them, but there is nothing in there about the strands being unique or impossible to find more of or anything like that.

"They knew that when their beautiful world's life was cut short, all of the many threads of reality that had been woven into it were released."
That's an odd phrasing structure to use if the threads used by the world are the only threads out there. "All of the many" seems intended to call out the fact that, while all of the strands that had been woven into the world were released, these weren't all the strands that existed.

I'm sure whatever the revelation that comes of what's going on within the rifts it will be great. Just wanted to point out that the idea of the world within is a secondary prison is possible and would make sense from the god's perspective.

[Math_Mage]

The problem with the idea that the gods have already fixed the Snarl with a world-within-the-world is that the tension just sort of evaporates. So TDO maybe gets control of a Gate, big whoop, it's not even a front line of defense against the Snarl anymore. There has to be something more involved to keep it interesting.

[archon_huskie]

If the snarl does not exist, the the gates are denying the hole's right to exist!

AND THE HOLEY BROTHERHOOD WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!!!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[Morgan Wick]

There is exactly one case that we know of of someone from this world witnessing the Snarl reaching out and unmaking someone: Soon and his wife (unless you count the Dark One's cleric; Kraagor doesn't count).

Any explanation, though, has to explain that one scene away.

My thinking (which I literally just came up with):
The gods are building a new world within the planet and plan to eventually unmake this one - and it is even possible that they are using the Dark One, and through him Redcloak, to do the latter, and may have used the Order of the Scribble for the same purpose in the past. Perhaps the Gates were always intended to be destroyed to start the process of destroying the world, which is why Soon's rift grew so much after Miko destroyed it. Soon warned Miko not to destroy the gate because he never agreed with this plan, which explains why Girard was so pissed at him. (One problem with this: the destruction of Dorukan's and Soon's gates are a bit of a Xanatos Roulette, and it doesn't explain what the Dark One's ritual really does.)

[Tergon]

Here's a wildly unsubstantiated theory that has no basis whatsoever in fact:

The World Within is the domain of the Eastern Gods.

The Snarl killed and unmade the Eastern Gods. Presumably, as it is anti-creation, it consumed their essence. But... we don't know if Gods can truly die. Perhaps it also swallowed their consciousness as well. And deep within the belly of the Snarl, the Pantheon of the Eastern Gods began to stir again, finding themselves trapped. They couldn't break out of the Snarl... but they could use the Threads it had consumed to construct a fortress within it, to protect themselves inside the beast. A world created in total harmony by a unified pantheon with no chinks in the armour for the Snarl to penetrate.

What Blackwing saw when he looked within the Snarl's Prison was the world created by Zeus, Ares, Aphrodite and all the others. And the reason the Snarl hasn't come screaming through the rift yet into this world is because it's laying seige to that one. It just can't find a chink in the armour because a totally unified pantheon managed to create a world the Snarl cannot penetrate.

[HandofShadows]

The Eastern Gods working in harmony? :smallconfused: Only if they didn't resemble the Greek dietes they are supposed to represent very much. The old greek gods where always up to something.

[Tergon]

I think at this point, it's moot that the comic takes... artistic liberties, shall we say, with the Gods' personalities as opposed to how they're commonly portrayed. :smallamused:

Besides, the Greek Gods may have done a lot of in-fighting, but they were allied with each other as often and as randomly as they fought. Put in a true threat to their existence - such as them waking up in the belly of the Snarl - and I'm pretty sure they'd work together under Zeus' direction. Maybe not indefinitely, maybe not happily, but given a distinct lack of choices? Anything could happen.

[martianmister]

Now I'm wondering... How exactly was Soon able to get information about events that happened before the creation of the current material world - events like the death of the Gods of the East? The only entities that were around to witness it were the gods, and, as far as we've seen, they never told anyone about it. I highly doubt that any kind of magic available to PCs could allow you to pry information from a god's mind against the god's will.

Maybe...The Dark One is their source after all? He gots information from other evil gods, and Soon get that information from the first "Redcloak"...

[ThePhantasm]

THE HOLEY BROTHERHOOD WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!!!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Elan.png

[CoffeeIncluded]

Here's a wildly unsubstantiated theory that has no basis whatsoever in fact:

The World Within is the domain of the Eastern Gods.

The Snarl killed and unmade the Eastern Gods. Presumably, as it is anti-creation, it consumed their essence. But... we don't know if Gods can truly die. Perhaps it also swallowed their consciousness as well. And deep within the belly of the Snarl, the Pantheon of the Eastern Gods began to stir again, finding themselves trapped. They couldn't break out of the Snarl... but they could use the Threads it had consumed to construct a fortress within it, to protect themselves inside the beast. A world created in total harmony by a unified pantheon with no chinks in the armour for the Snarl to penetrate.

What Blackwing saw when he looked within the Snarl's Prison was the world created by Zeus, Ares, Aphrodite and all the others. And the reason the Snarl hasn't come screaming through the rift yet into this world is because it's laying seige to that one. It just can't find a chink in the armour because a totally unified pantheon managed to create a world the Snarl cannot penetrate.

I am liking this theory very much.

[NuocMamAvenger]

Another crazy theory :

Rereading crayons of times because of this thread, i am doubting of Kraagor's death. He disappear because of the seal spell cast on the rift during the ultimate fight with the Snarl. Maybe the creature didn't kill him. If the Snarl have acquirred a minimum consciousness, he knows that all the rifts were sealed. And Kraagor would be the last alive being he would see in his prison before a long time. He could have create a world (or it is the world he destroyed before or where gods abandonned him) to torture or befriend him.

Some may have imagined it before, but it could esplain why the Snarl is not aware of the reopening of the rifts.

[Moriarty]

There is exactly one case that we know of of someone from this world witnessing the Snarl reaching out and unmaking someone: Soon and his wife (unless you count the Dark One's cleric; Kraagor doesn't count).

Any explanation, though, has to explain that one scene away.

easy, we haven't actually seen what happened with Soon and the rifts. We've only seen what Soon told his paladins. And we already know he omitted some "details" from the way Girard reacted to the Order's presence in the desert.


Same goes for the whole Snarl story in the first place, the only source of information about the Snarl are the older gods. They told their followers, they told the Dark One, they were the only one who could have been alive when the Snarl showed itself.
Maybe the holes are just things the gods don't want anyone to meddle with so they made up this huge scary story to get the mortals to keep them closed.

[Gift Jeraff]

The Snarl is made of threads which were used to make the universe. Blackwing saw a universe inside of the rifts. Therefore, the world within the rift = the Snarl settled down for some reason, possibly with the souls of its victims "reincarnated" or something.

I always thought that was the simplest answer.

[ThePhantasm]

The Snarl is made of threads which were used to make the universe. Blackwing saw a universe inside of the rifts. Therefore, the world within the rift = the Snarl settled down for some reason, possibly with the souls of its victims "reincarnated" or something.

I always thought that was the simplest answer.

That's what I assumed as well. The only thing that gives me pause is Shojo's theory that a mortal might be able to do more damage to the Snarl than a god - that seemed at least at the time like a Chekhov's gun setting up OOTS vs. the Snarl. Now I'm not so sure.

[Ravian]

Minor SOD spoilersPerhaps the Dark One does indeed know that there is no Snarl and instead a world. And the reason he wants to control a gate is to bring it to his domain (where there is a large army of goblin souls) and send them in through the rift to conquer the world. Or perhaps the Dark One has fully lost faith in this world, and is trying to negotiate with the people of the new world (who have likely never seen or heard of a goblin before, since they were created during the 2nd world as walking XP bags)