OOTS #833 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

I won't be making a Kickstarter update until after I've slept, probably late in the afternoon or early in the evening.

[Saph]

Hmm, moving-stuff comic. Explained a few things, but not so much drama as the last few.

Last panel was entertaining, though. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

What? Jirix has defeated the arch villain himself?!? Who'd have thought he'd be the hero...

[rekuu]

Hope we get to see inside the new fortress.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Eee! I got up early for this!

...I don't know if Xykon is really buying this. At least Redcloak seems to have assuaged him for the time being.

Whooo, that's an impressive fortress. Thank goodness Xykon fell for the fake! ...He fell for the fake!

So MiTD's probably been on the astral plane...

...Fanfiction sites. :smallamused:

[TheSummoner]

"No. No, I definitely did not" Heh, he certainly didn't :smallbiggrin:

Also, I give it five minutes until we see a "Demon Roach funeral" thread.

[Ranzear]

Beautiful timing as ever Giant. I'd hardly rolled out of bed!

So was it a Xanatos' Gambit that RC made a duplicate phylactery knowing Xykon would stash it somewhere inaccessible or was it just luck and prudence?

[Gift Jeraff]

Jirix and O-Chul will pay for their crimes against roachkind. The Abyssal Liberation Front will make sure of this.

[Lvl45DM!]

Heh. Smartarse lil roaches gonna get whats coming to em. I mean you can only play Statler and Waldorf if you're not in reach of the main characters. Gross sound effect too :smallyuk:
I love how Xykon is being smart and proactive but still kinda childish and impulsive. His set up on the astral plane is clever but you know he made it look that ostentatious just so it would be totally badass

And Giant you're just being mean to the poor MitD guess thread :smalltongue:

Btw 'Theurge for a snack'? BAHAHAHAHA best line ever.

[Bastian Weaver]

Xykon's citadel actually reminds me of Apocalypse's extra-temporal fortress in X-Men TAS "Beyond Good and Evil" story arc. Sweet, combined with him calling Redcloak "Cyclops".
Loved the MitD and demon-roach talking about Tsukiko, too.
Bonus XP to Redcloak for explaining Tsukiko's death to the Bone Daddy - yeah! Go, one-eyed goblin!

[Quild]

RC got his defense as expected!
But I guess every possibilities were expected xD

[FlawedParadigm]

So, another chip in the "deeper thoughts for MitD" pile, confirmation of the lack of issue of Tsukiko's demise, a fanfiction reference, the plan for the fauxlactery, and the plot chugging right along.

Fantastic. The only bad part about Rich's writing is I always want more.

[luxgladius]

"Theurge for a snack"...
"Theurge for a snack"...



The urge for a snack

Ow.

[iTookUrNick]

Why Jirix killed the roach, specifically? Is it just a way to say "now I am in charge"?

Edit: Nija'd. I still wanna know. :smallwink:

[The Succubus]

Does anyone else wonder if Jirix is up to something? It seems odd that he would crush the demon roach like that. :smallconfused:

[tirsales]

Thanks for explaining "The urge for a snack" ... ARGL, I really didn't get that one.

But "Take it to the fanfiction sites" is brilliant *g* Oh and one more piece of information for the Monster-in-the-dark speculations

[ArtosSwiftblade]

Cue further frenzied speculation on the MiTD thread. :P

And Tsukiko fans will be pleased to note at least MitD cared! While Jiriz loses my respect for squashing one of the roaches. They could have been his lovable sidekicks!

[Ur-Quan]

Awesomeness on square! I love the revelation about Xykon's past absences, as well as his "I've crushed an uppity minion myself before, good job" line.

[Psyren]

Interesting that Xykon wants to hide the fact that he gave the ritual to Tsukiko from Redcloak. Why would he care if Redcloak knows he's curious about it?

Since RC got 9ths, I think Xykon is treading a bit more carefully around him.

The MitD may have been on the Astral Plane before? What a clue!

Interesting that the AP even exists in this cosmology, but I suppose teleportation etc. wouldn't be possible without it...
At least Xykon won't have to worry about Githyanki raiders stealing his bauble.


Why Jirix killed the roach, specifically? Is it just a way to say "now I am in charge"?

Edit: Nija'd. I still wanna know. :smallwink:

Because they stood around cracking wise while he was being strangled to death by their boss?

[Ron Miel]

"They had theurge for a snack."

I bet Rich has been planning this line since she first appeared.

[Lvl45DM!]

DUUUUUUDE Rich just missed a killer joke
Redcloak: Gate.
MitD: What gate?

:smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

[Redshiftblue]

That's what I've wanted to see, Xykon's reaction to Tsukiko's murder and RCs frank admission to it. Wonderful plot!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

:smallbiggrin: I own the Return to the Tomb of Horrors. I was looking forward to Kraagor's Gate, but now I'm REALLY hoping it all ends in Xykon's otherworld fortress!

The villian should die on his own turf, and not a rental.

[Drak'rrth]

Bit of nitpicking: In panel 2, Redcloak should have said "And she kept waving around...", instead of "waiving".

Anyway, I really can't believe that Xykon fell for the whole thing. I'm willing to bet Tarquin wouldn't have believed - or even trusted - Redcloak for an instant.

Still, glad to see everyone on the move. I wonder what Jirix will do...

[HUMVEE Driver]

Fairly moving stuff. If it plays out, that is. Right now I miss Tsukiko. Silly as it may be, I liked having her around. Tsukiko's presence will be missed.

Prehaps now we can move on to more of Xykon's plans? And see where he goes to next? Going on to the location of the next closest gate makes sense to me. Except that with Xykon, you never know.

-HUMVEE Driver

[Heksefatter]

I hope Xykon isn't being duped by this. He's shown himself to be highly perceptive before, without really letting it on, though, so who knows?

[fergo]

Doesn't look like Xykon is forgetting about it completely, though... I'm kind of reminded of Start of Darkness...

He did a good job of pretending not to know about the end of Right-eye when it suited his needs.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

Well that explains what Xykon's been doing, epic genesis-like stuffs.

Also, kudos to those who thought that Xykon was going to hide the phylactery in an impregnable fortress behind dozens of powerful spells. Which is sort-of funny considering Red Cloak's schemes.

And another Kudos for those who thought that Xykon wouldn't particularly care about Tsukiko's Demise.

I can't wait to see Team Evil on the move again, and the Three-Team race to Windy Canyon.

[RMS Oceanic]

Interesting. Xykon doesn't seem totally convinced about the Tsukiko explaination, and I'm curious as to his motivation for denying his involvement: Is it to save face, or is it an attempt to conceal his intents towards Redcloak?

The important thing to take from this strip is that there appears to be no trust between Redcloak and Xykon now. There may not have been before, but it feels more overt now. As predicted, Xykon is taking the phylactery from Redcloak, and also as predicted Redcloak has taken measures to ensure he still has control over it.

My immediate prediction: The next strip will be the Order arriving at Windy Canyon - another aside, it's nice to get possible confirmation that Girard did give the true location to Sirini - and possibly being aprised of the phylactery's recovery. What they do when they speculate how heavily fortified they think it will be is a different matter.

[CoffeeIncluded]

:smallbiggrin: I own the Return to the Tomb of Horrors. I was looking forward to Kraagor's Gate, but now I'm REALLY hoping it all ends in Xykon's otherworld fortress!

Now that Xykon's made it? No duh. :smalltongue:

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Anyway, I really can't believe that Xykon fell for the whole thing. I'm willing to bet Tarquin wouldn't have believed - or even trusted - Redcloak for an instant.


There is a big differance between beliving that someone is lying and knowing what they lie about.

Most likely Xykon asumes that Redcloak killed Tsukiko because he saw her as a threat to his position as second in command and then he found the second half of the ritual on her.

You should never make a lie overly complicated, stick to semi-truth and let people draw their own conclussions. Which is exactly what Redcloak is doing right now.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Am I the only one who was most moved by Jirix killing the Roach?

It’s like: Screw the fortress! Screw the fact that Xykon is actually treading lightly around Redcloak! A Roach was killed, and that was so heinous!


You should never make a lie overly complicated, stick to semi-truth and let people draw their own conclussions. Which is exactly what Redcloak is doing right now.
The bit about Tsukiko wanting to force Xykon to do… things was also brilliant. It forced Xykon to think about things he would rather not think about and got him to shut down the conversation and any further examination of Redcloak’s story.

Redcloaks School of Falsehood:

Lesson One: Stick to as much of the truth as possible half-truths are more believable than outright lies.

Lesson Two: When you must outright lie, keep it simple.

Lesson Three: After you lie, distract the target so that he or she does not examine the lie too closely.

[Moonshadow]

And once again, Redcloak shows just how much smarter he is than Xykon.


Though, I have to ask... How does Xykon not know he's holding a fake phylactery? I mean, it's supposed to contain his soul, one would think that he'd be able to sense the presence of it.

Or does a phylactery work like a Horcrux, in that the owner has no idea if anything has happened to it, unless he actually physically checks?

[Oakianus]

Beautiful, and very nice to see that Xykon officially cares about Tsukiko about as much as I expected him to. Though I must say that I am a bit surprised that he's worried about Redcloak finding out exactly what it is that she was doing - he's apparently still got some level of respect for our dear Wrong Eye. Which is obviously very, very wise. :D

[Deepbluediver]

Does anyone else wonder if Jirix is up to something? It seems odd that he would crush the demon roach like that. :smallconfused:
I don't think he's "up to something" other than it might indicate that the all-goblinkind paradise is about to start a slow slide into a tyrannical dictatorship, like so many other cities (and even that might be reading into it to much).


As to the people asking why Xykon wouldn't want RC to know that he gave the half of that ritual to Tsukiko, I suspect that Xykon doesn't want to give RC any real reason to turn against him. People seem to sometimes mistake Xykon's callus disregard for the lives of a few low-level peons for general stupidity, which is definitely NOT the case. Unlike Tsukiko, who had no respect for RC, I think Xykon understands that RC is a very useful and powerful ally and even if not a match for him (Xykon) in a straight-up fight, Xykon doesn't want to have to kill or intimidate RC into submission, again, because he (Redcloak) is much more effective when self-motivated.

[RMS Oceanic]

A phylactery does not contain the soul until the body is destroyed. It is essentially a fancy trinket until such times as its owner's soul has need of it, and because both the fake and the original has been abjured up the wazoo, it's unlikely that either symbol should detect or feel of anything magical.

[Lvl45DM!]

And once again, Redcloak shows just how much smarter he is than Xykon.


Though, I have to ask... How does Xykon not know he's holding a fake phylactery? I mean, it's supposed to contain his soul, one would think that he'd be able to sense the presence of it.

Or does a phylactery work like a Horcrux, in that the owner has no idea if anything has happened to it, unless he actually physically checks?

Most people can't sense their souls when its inside them, what makes you think you could sense it better when its not?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Though, I have to ask... How does Xykon not know he's holding a fake phylactery? I mean, it's supposed to contain his soul, one would think that he'd be able to sense the presence of it.
Minor SoD spoiler:
Xykon’s soul still resides in Xykon’s body. The phylactery only holds the soul if the body is destroyed. I would guess that after Xykon’s body regenerated, the soul returned to the body.

[oppyu]

Bit of nitpicking: In panel 2, Redcloak should have said "And she kept waving around...", instead of "waiving".

Anyway, I really can't believe that Xykon fell for the whole thing. I'm willing to bet Tarquin wouldn't have believed - or even trusted - Redcloak for an instant.

Still, glad to see everyone on the move. I wonder what Jirix will do...
'waiving' is derived from 'waive', which means 'cancel'. There's a longer, more precise definition, but I can't think of it from the top of my head. 'waving' is derived from 'wave', like the greeting.

And oooooooh, Jirix might be a significant villain in his own right. Early prediction; Jirix is an even bigger anti-human zealot than Redcloak, and plans to turn Gobbotopia into a military state.

[Aenghus]

That Death-fortress is vaguely Star-shaped, and pretty impressive. I suspect it has a design flaw though.

[fishboy]

Fairly moving stuff. If it plays out, that is. Right now I miss Tsukiko. Silly as it may be, I liked having her around. Tsukiko's presence will be missed.

Prehaps now we can move on to more of Xykon's plans? And see where he goes to next? Going on to the location of the next closest gate makes sense to me. Except that with Xykon, you never know.

-HUMVEE Driver

Sigh! Are you STILL at it with those inane, poorly hidden "first page" posts? It wasn't funny or clever the first dozen couple of times and it still isn't :smallfrown:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[thubby]

wouldnt it make more sense to just encase the stupid thing in adamantium and leave it in the negative energy plane?

nothing on the plane itself could get into it and impact the phylactery. and the plane is monstrously hostile to life.

[Cronos988]

So maybe the MitD was on the astral plane. That is certainly interesting.

I wonder how a floating MITD looks like? Where would the shadow end?

[Lvl45DM!]

Sigh! Are you STILL at it with those inane, poorly hidden "first page" posts? It wasn't funny or clever the first dozen couple of times and it still isn't :smallfrown:

Especially since its second page:smalltongue:

[Kobold-Bard]

At least the MitD cared about Tsukiko, that's something.

Maybe Jirix is more of an iron-fisted bastard than previously thought.

[Shale]

Interesting. Xykon doesn't seem totally convinced about the Tsukiko explaination, and I'm curious as to his motivation for denying his involvement: Is it to save face, or is it an attempt to conceal his intents towards Redcloak?


If Redcloak doesn't know that Xykon is on to him, then there's no reason to point it out for him. If he does, best to let him think he's still a step ahead.

[Michaeler]

Jirix has always projected a strong image of being a gentle, fun-loving "peacetime ruler" - when he's left alone and nobody knows he's just as willing to crush something for being an annoyance as anyone else.

[Giddon]

I believe its official, they both are lying to each other and they both KNOW they are being lied to.

Xykon knows RC is lying, he may not know exactly what he is hiding, but he knows it has to do with the ritual. In any case he can't afford to confront him with the truth (even though he probably assumes RC knows that he gave Tsukiko his arcane half of the ritual), for the same reason he cannot kill RC, he needs him to complete the ritual. (He might suspect he is the only one that can complete the divine half)

On the other hand, RC knows X is lying about Tsukiko, but as he said, he has to mantain the balance in their relationship so he cannot afford to confront him about why Tsukiko had the arcane half of the ritual. Also, we see how RC can see two steps ahead. He probably always suspected X would reclaim the phylactery and hide it after the episode with O'chul so that's why he made the fake.

[Cicciograna]

I've the impression that Jirix and Red Cloak have something on their mind: Jirix' vehemence in squishing the roach was impressive, as if it was following a predetermined plan. After all, the roaches always seemed to be sympathetic to Xykon, rather than RC: who knows, maybe they're one of the nine sides involved in the story, and their only foot in Gobbotopia has just been squished leaving the city to the hobbos alone.

[Voidfaith]

Interesting. Xykon doesn't seem totally convinced about the Tsukiko explaination, and I'm curious as to his motivation for denying his involvement: Is it to save face, or is it an attempt to conceal his intents towards Redcloak?

The important thing to take from this strip is that there appears to be no trust between Redcloak and Xykon now. There may not have been before, but it feels more overt now. As predicted, Xykon is taking the phylactery from Redcloak, and also as predicted Redcloak has taken measures to ensure he still has control over it.



The manipulation, spying and counter spying game between Xykon and RC is quite great. One of the best plots concerning Team Evil.

Actually that is the main advantage of the Order of the Stick against Team Evil and the Linear Guild. There is trust and a common objective shared among the members.

Except for Belkar...:smallyuk:

And V's "deal"...:smallmad:

Ah, dammit!:smallfurious:

[Friv]

Yeah, Redcloak and Xykon have definitely entered the "dance of betrayal" stage of their relationship, where each one starts manuevering to ultimately betray the other, but not until their goals are achieved.

It was nice the way that Redcloak turned the thing around on Xykon. Once Tsukiko's death was about the rituals, Xykon doesn't want to push the investigation in case it shatters his somewhat tenuous hold on the guy he needs to rule the world.

[Estelindis]

That was a great sequence of events for Redcloak. Can't see how it could have turned out much better for him, especially with Jirix being the one to foot the possibility that Tsukiko had thought of betraying Xykon.

Interesting development re. the Astral Plane and the MitD...

[Blisstake]

Hah, it looked like Xykon wanted to get mad to Redcloak about what he did, but to do so, he would have to admit he had plans for Tsukiko to cast the divine half of the ritual rather than RC. Very clever.

[LaughingLemur]

I wonder if Xykon isn'st just going to trap Redcloak in the astral fortress?

[B. Dandelion]

"So what? Who cares?"
"Exactly. That's why I'm sad."

Aww, even I feel a little bad now.

Frankly I do not think Xykon wholly bought that act. I'm not sure he knows exactly what's up, but I think he suspects SOMETHING is up.

I laughed at Jirix the first time but it's honestly kind of ominous. Without his bosses around he's free to show his true colors, and they're not in the least bit pretty.

[Quild]

So maybe the MitD was on the astral plane. That is certainly interesting.

I wonder how a floating MITD looks like? Where would the shadow end?

It's rather another hint that he has genetic memory.

[factotum]

Interesting to note that apparently Redcloak doesn't care that Xykon knows he can cast 9th level spells (and thus True Resurrection), given that he just cast Gate right in front of him...wonder if that'll come back to bite him later on?

[Xapi]

'waiving' is derived from 'waive', which means 'cancel'. There's a longer, more precise definition, but I can't think of it from the top of my head. 'waving' is derived from 'wave', like the greeting.

And oooooooh, Jirix might be a significant villain in his own right. Early prediction; Jirix is an even bigger anti-human zealot than Redcloak, and plans to turn Gobbotopia into a military state.

I predict the exact opposite. Well, not exact because I have no idea how he feels about humans.

Jirix will turn Gobbotopia into a fairly safe and pretty place to live (at least for goblinoids).

In fact, I get the feeling that once the deal with the Gates is resolved (and The Dark One's Plan is foiled), Redcloack might return to Gobbotopia and find that what the Plan was supposed to achieve was actually being taken care of by Jirix.

[Pantler]

I like the "SQLLCKQTH!" sound.

[Tundar]

Yeah, take it to the fanfiction sites!!



DUUUUUUDE Rich just missed a killer joke
Redcloak: Gate.
MitD: What gate?

*snicker*

[blueblade]

Great strip giant! I love the 'Dance of Betrayal' (thanks poster above me) phase we're in, this is really 2 BBEG playing here, even if one has 10 levels on the other.

Also, you threw out little gifts to the Level Geeks (the Genesis and the size of the plane) and the MitD speculators (astral plane experience, not remembering it). You're the best!

Edit: My bad, looks like a single, default sized casting (or thereabouts). no info there...

[LordRahl6]

There's is definitely some sort of coup going on here for Redcloak's part, and as prroven at the end of WAXP when Xykon was battling Roy we know the lich is not completely without deceit and cunning. However it still remains to be seen if Xykon can be blindsided by Redcloak.

As for the Phylactery, while it may not hold the soul when Xykon has a body it should still register with anyone attempting to do a "Detect Magic" spell.

My favorite bit though was Xykon saying, "leave it for the Fan Fiction sites.":smallcool:

[rbetieh]

Ha! The Lawful Evil guy doesnt even need to lie to get his way. He just says everything he knows and changes the subject....

Also, this is looking more and more like MiTD is getting set up to turn on team evil, if he didnt already know that Team Evil wasn't all "Friendship is magic" he does now. Once this settles in, he's going to become a lot harder to control.

Great strip by the way, nice to see Xykon backed into a corner from time to time.

[--Lime--]

I had a hunch Tsukiko wasn't gong to be too missed. After all, it's not really the first time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html)

Xykon's pause was interesting, though.

[willpell]

At least Xykon won't have to worry about Githyanki raiders stealing his bauble.

Maybe they'll be Goth Yankees (dressed in red, BLACK and blue). Jones and Rodriguez can debate whether they constitute fair use or foul (Rodriguez: "they didn't look like poultry?").

[t209]

Okay! Xykon actually hated her then! Ah Well, they got a fortress in astral plane, and xykon have taken the bait.

[Lord Raziere]

*plays Amazing Grace for the squished Roach*

*salutes*

*music ends*

Great comic, like the fact that Xykon considers that business as usual and goes to put the phylactery somewhere super-safe.

[Smolder]

Who has the arcane half of the ritual now? I saw RC holding it in one panel, then it was gone.

[pendell]

WAVING! The phylactery she is waving around. Waiving would imply that the phylactery was a set of legal rights that she was voluntarily giving up.

*Pant, pant*.

Anyways, solid comic. Exposition. Now we know Wrong-eye made a false phylactery -- he must have been aware of what Xykon was doing and anticipated this to keep direct control of the phylactery.

Interesting. The Mitd has been to the astral plane but doesn't remember it. More fodder for the appropriate thread.

Aside from that, applause for a good comic and wishes for sleep!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ORione]

Who has the arcane half of the ritual now? I saw RC holding it in one panel, then it was gone.

Redcloak put it into hammerspace.

[Caractacus]

'waiving' is derived from 'waive', which means 'cancel'. There's a longer, more precise definition, but I can't think of it from the top of my head. 'waving' is derived from 'wave', like the greeting.

Yes, that was the point that was being made. It is not the correct word for this context.


And oooooooh, Jirix might be a significant villain in his own right. Early prediction; Jirix is an even bigger anti-human zealot than Redcloak, and plans to turn Gobbotopia into a military state.

I think that's a very good point and worth watching. I also wonder whether Jirix has had the same eye-opening experience as Redcloak and views all Goblinoids equally, or whether Goblins are about to find themselves in a new relationship vis-a-vis the Hobgoblins...


As for the Phylactery, while it may not hold the soul when Xykon has a body it should still register with anyone attempting to do a "Detect Magic" spell.

Well, yeah. there are probably only half a dozen things on the Prime material that have more spells on them...

Phylactery = magical. Fauxlactery = magical. What's your point? :smallconfused:

[leakingpen]

I had a hunch Tsukiko wasn't gong to be too missed. After all, it's not really the first time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html)

Xykon's pause was interesting, though.

Agreed. He may have a suspicion, and he was NOT about to admit that he gave her the scroll, as that would make him look stupid.

[mhensley]

I wonder if Xykon isn'st just going to trap Redcloak in the astral fortress?

That's a very interesting thought. He doesn't really need Redcloak until he has control of a gate.

[LordRahl6]

Uh, why would the Faux phylactery be magical? If it was created merely be a metalworker there'd be no magic to it. So if someone can point me to an assertion why its magical please do so.:smallconfused:

Edit: Okay, there are forms of magic on the faux phylactery, and the first put on it was "Obsure Greater Object" by Redcloak. However we know Xykon is an Epic level spellcaster, so would he be able to tell if the school or subschool was wrong for phylactery creation?:smallfrown:

[Crœsos]

Redcloaks School of Falsehood:

Lesson One: Stick to as much of the truth as possible half-truths are more believable than outright lies.

Lesson Two: When you must outright lie, keep it simple.

Lesson Three: After you lie, distract the target so that he or she does not examine the lie too closely.

Actually, almost all of Redcloak's statements to Xykon since his return have been literally true. Not only does it save him the trouble of having to remember what lies he's told (just which parts of the truth he's withheld), it's a way to make sure he doesn't fall afoul of any magical lie detection the now-suspicious Xykon might be using.


"I crushed the so-called "resistance" and took back your phylactery." True!
"I also took the liberty of putting it on a new chain as well. And in a handsome faux leather carrying case." Two possible reads, both of them true. The chain is new. So is the 'phylactery'. It's also possible that the bag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) we see Redcloak putting the real phylactery in is also a "faux leather carrying case".
"You can probably see the smoking rubble of their headquarters from here." True!
Jirix: "Did you get to kill any paladins?"
Redcloak: "One, sort of." True (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html)!
"It was my job to get it back." True!
". . . I'm done with that. That's Jirix's job now." True!
"My job is to help you capture a Gate and bring the power of the Snarl under our control." This is the one falsehood I noticed, and it's only false because Redcloak added the clause ". . . under our control" at the end. Unless "our" means "goblinkind, including our one and only god, the Dark One".
"It never crossed my mind." True! Redcloak knows that he's not getting his eye back as long as Xykon unlives.
"Not since I brutally murdered her ten minutes ago." True!
"She broke into my study while I was out getting the phylactery, looking for something and ranting like a lunatic. So I fed her to her wights." True!
"And she kept waiving around your half of the Gate Ritual. Seemed excited about it." True!
". . . she did say something about having finally found a way to force Xykon to love her." True, depending on the sense in which "force" is used.
"In fact, she was very explicit about about what she would make him do to her, starting with . . ." Mostly true. She did describe explicitly how she'd start out with Xykon, before Redcloak cut her off.
Xykon: "You didn't think I was going to let YOU keep carrying it, did you?"
Redcloak: "No. No, I definitely did not." Very, very true!

So I guess the most important lesson is to avoid lying altogether in a universe that allows magical lie detection.

[VanIsleKnight]

There is so much going on in this update, instinct tells me Xykon is rolling bluff checks to RC not just about the his half of the Gate Ritual, but about not catching on to RC lying about everything else too.

I suspect he definitely knows Red Cloak is trying to play him, I am not truly sure how much Xykon thinks RC is doing though. My money is that he is probably aware of almost everything RC has been planning.

Jiryx is doing a bit of acting here I think, probably realizing what RC is doing and going along with it.

That was a very deliberate single panel exchange between the roaches and the Creature in the Darkness. A very, very deliberate expression of emotion as well. Last time that happened O'Chul got zapped away to safety, not sure if it works on sadness though.

I'm wondering if the demon roaches aren't appendages/spies of Xykon somehow, and that comedic squish meant more then just for the lulz.

Overall, the game Team Evil has been playing just stepped up and now it's a game of waiting for the other to make a mistake first. I'm almost positive it's a case of "I know you're lying, I know you know that I know you're lying, but we're both going to pretend that we're none the wiser because we still need each other to finish the job".


Villainy afoot indeed. I love it. :D

[oppyu]

Yes, that was the point that was being made. It is not the correct word for this context.
Oh, the comic says waiving... awkward.

[Arkanist]

This could culminate in a conflict that would be quite awesome... the coolest battle in the series since dorukan vs xykon in the start of darkness...but until then the intrigue is still what keeps the comic interesting. Poor Tsukiko...never will she get the opportunity to be raised into the undead nor will she meet the prereqs for the "lichloved" feat.

[SmaugTheYounger]

At least the MitD cared about Tsukiko, that's something.
Maybe Jirix is more of an iron-fisted bastard than previously thought.

He is an orange hobgoblin after all.
All efficency, and warrior's codes, and.. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html)

I wonder if Xykon isn'st just going to trap Redcloak in the astral fortress?
Or torture the truth out of him? In Xykon's castle, no one can hear you scream...

[Uchiha Richard]

Well, not quite the confrontation I was hoping for, but it's fairly evident Xykon didn't completely buy Cyclops' story either. I would really like to see Xykon put Redcloak back in place by calling him out on the phylactery and having some of his spell traps ready to deal with Redcloak in his fortress. But we'll see how it plays out.

[fwiffo]

My favorite part is:

:redcloak: You don't know anything about how she got her hands on it, do you?
:xykon:...
:xykon:No
:redcloak:Huh. Weird.

Brilliantly played by Redcloak and it put Xykon on defensive. By making Xykon explicitly deny that he used Tsukiko to make a run around Redcloak, he shut down any detailed inquiries from Xykon into Tsukiko's death.

Redcloak's line about subtle manipulation of Xykon is all too true. Well played.

[shaddy_24]

Uh, why would the Faux phylactery be magical? If it was created merely be a metalworker there'd be no magic to it. So if someone can point me to an assertion why its magical please do so.:smallconfused:

Edit: Okay, there are forms of magic on the faux phylactery, and the first put on it was "Obsure Greater Object" by Redcloak. However we know Xykon is an Epic level spellcaster, so would he be able to tell if the school or subschool was wrong for phylactery creation?:smallfrown:

I'd assume that Greater Obscure Object would probably block magical detection of any kind. That or Nystul's Magic Aura, which can be used to hide magical auras. I'd figure one of the major parts of protecting the phylactery would be preventing Detect Magic from picking it up, that'd be a major part of any defenses I set up.

[RMS Oceanic]

Uh, why would the Faux phylactery be magical? If it was created merely be a metalworker there'd be no magic to it. So if someone can point me to an assertion why its magical please do so.:smallconfused:

"Greater Obscure Object. Hardening. Superior Resistance. Greater-" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html)

[Reejis]

Jirix is about to go hardcore hobgoblin. Neighboring kingdoms better watch out.

[Hardcore]

A fortress on the Astral plane? Cool.


Nice comic. Clearly you need to have the brain to write a comic like this one.
Me, I wouldn't make it half as good:smallannoyed:

[rbetieh]

Jirix is about to go hardcore hobgoblin. Neighboring kingdoms better watch out.

Doesnt that directly contradict the orders given to him by the Dark One himself? He is supposed to be waging wars of diplomacy, trade, and intrigue, not wars of bows and arrows.

Maybe he was super close to another level and wanted the skill points to put into diplomacy, appraise, and knowledge ranks?

[Edhelras]

See? (Hob-) goblins ARE evil!

[Xapi]

I think the roach stomping is just Jirix's way of showing us that this is no longer the city of the evil, the infernal, and the schemers trying to hold Gods ransom.

This is now a city from the goblins, for the goblins.

The roaches can suck on that.

[pendell]

I think the roach stomping is just Jirix's way of showing us that this is no longer the city of the evil, the infernal, and the schemers trying to hold Gods ransom.

This is now a city from the goblins, for the goblins.

The roaches can suck on that.

Exactly. Jirix isn't embarking either on a reign of terror or on a war of conquest. He's cleaning up the city and trying to make it livable. Part of that is getting rid of vermin.

It's a cockroach, people. Who in the real world wouldn't kill a cockroach on sight? Just because they're demonic, always evil wisecracking roaches doesn't change the fact that they are pests to be exterminated. I've been in roach-infested houses before and it was not fun.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[MoonCat]

WHAT IS THIS MY BRAIN EXPLODES

'Art distinctly less crappy,' my foot. You've added shading to MitD, and the Astral Plane looks fabulous. This is not even a tiny bit crappy.

Oh, and plot and all too. Cool.

Redcloak hasn't really told a lie yet either. I'm so happy with how this is going! :smallbiggrin:

[Xapi]

Exactly. Jirix isn't embarking either on a reign of terror or on a war of conquest. He's cleaning up the city and trying to make it livable. Part of that is getting rid of vermin.

It's a cockroach, people. Who in the real world wouldn't kill a cockroach on sight? Just because they're demonic, always evil wisecracking roaches doesn't change the fact that they are pests to be exterminated. I've been in roach-infested houses before and it was not fun.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Actually, the fact that they are EVIL DEMONIC roaches makes it an even more obvious choice.

I find it funny that people think that because evil demonic roaches are being stomped on, Jirix is evil and his reign will be a military state of slaughter.

[Kaed]

It's a cockroach, people. Who in the real world wouldn't kill a cockroach on sight?

I wouldn't :X I usually just put them outside.

Also, check out my new icon :D Szilard made it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

...does Rich reads the D&D 3.5 subforum? I mean "How to hide your phylactery?" is a tradition just like Monkday and ToBday up there. And I am pretty sure Impenetrable Fortress in an inaccessible plane is one of the favourites (the core of the moon is also a nice one).

Either way I loved this strip!

[slayerx]

The best way to keep someone in the dark is to try and lie to them by telling as few lies as possible. Much less of a chance of you getting caught when 99% of what you told them is indeed true.

I wonder if Xykon is really falling for all this or if he realizes Redcloak is up to something and is just playing along. If he was really having Tsukiko research the ritual he might realize that redcloak might have smoked her because she found out something she wasn't supposed to know. However he would not just tell him that and thus might just be playing along. Xykon does tend to be smarter than he lets on.

[Laws of Chaos]

wow, a lot of questions answered, and Rec Cloak was easily able to talk his way out of the situation and set up Xykon in position to not be able to say anything without showing fault, good move on his part. Good move on his part because it give CR a slight upper hand at this point.

After all that though, all I can think of is "that poor roach, so close to his goal of world domination, just to have it taken away!"

[raj72616a]

i don't think RC is even trying to hide that he knows Xykon sent the theurge

what he said really meant: i know what you've been up to, but i like to pretend not to know about it (to avoid jeopardizing our teamwork), if you don't want to talk about it neither you should play dumb too

[deuxhero]

Relax about the roaches doods, they are outsiders on the material plane and no plot magic weapons or spells against them. They will reform on their home plane.

[DreadArchon]

Those roaches have always annoyed me, even with impressive groaners like today's theurge joke. I like Jirix even more for stomping one. :smallbiggrin:

But MiTD's comments about Tsukiko really did manage to be a little sad.
Well-played, Giant. :smallfrown:

[Civil War Man]

I think Xykon understands that RC is a very useful and powerful ally and even if not a match for him (Xykon) in a straight-up fight, Xykon doesn't want to have to kill or intimidate RC into submission, again, because he (Redcloak) is much more effective when self-motivated.

I think it's more that Xykon understands that he needs Redcloak for the time being, for better or worse, The divine half of the ritual is required, and RC is the only cleric on Team Evil, and the most powerful cleric in the world to boot as far as any of us know. He probably recruited Tsukiko as an insurance policy so he could dump RC if he needed to. But since that didn't pan out, if Xykon needlessly antagonizes, alienates, or kills Redcloak then his plans come to a screeching halt, especially since RC doesn't have a written copy of the divine half.

[McStabbington]

Actually, almost all of Redcloak's statements to Xykon since his return have been literally true. Not only does it save him the trouble of having to remember what lies he's told (just which parts of the truth he's withheld), it's a way to make sure he doesn't fall afoul of any magical lie detection the now-suspicious Xykon might be using.


"I crushed the so-called "resistance" and took back your phylactery." True!
"I also took the liberty of putting it on a new chain as well. And in a handsome faux leather carrying case." Two possible reads, both of them true. The chain is new. So is the 'phylactery'. It's also possible that the bag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) we see Redcloak putting the real phylactery in is also a "faux leather carrying case".
"You can probably see the smoking rubble of their headquarters from here." True!
Jirix: "Did you get to kill any paladins?"
Redcloak: "One, sort of." True (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html)!
"It was my job to get it back." True!
". . . I'm done with that. That's Jirix's job now." True!
"My job is to help you capture a Gate and bring the power of the Snarl under our control." This is the one falsehood I noticed, and it's only false because Redcloak added the clause ". . . under our control" at the end. Unless "our" means "goblinkind, including our one and only god, the Dark One".
"It never crossed my mind." True! Redcloak knows that he's not getting his eye back as long as Xykon unlives.
"Not since I brutally murdered her ten minutes ago." True!
"She broke into my study while I was out getting the phylactery, looking for something and ranting like a lunatic. So I fed her to her wights." True!
"And she kept waiving around your half of the Gate Ritual. Seemed excited about it." True!
". . . she did say something about having finally found a way to force Xykon to love her." True, depending on the sense in which "force" is used.
"In fact, she was very explicit about about what she would make him do to her, starting with . . ." Mostly true. She did describe explicitly how she'd start out with Xykon, before Redcloak cut her off.
Xykon: "You didn't think I was going to let YOU keep carrying it, did you?"
Redcloak: "No. No, I definitely did not." Very, very true!

So I guess the most important lesson is to avoid lying altogether in a universe that allows magical lie detection.

Exactly. Redcloak just gave a tour de force performance demonstrating how to lie effectively. First, the lie was purely one of omission: Tsusiko was going to try and get Xykon to love her by being loyal to him (which, incidentally, is crazy). Second, it's simple and not something that Redcloak has to remember not to slip up on. The only thing he has to do is either not talk about Tsusiko, which is easy, or keep the talk away from exact word-for-word discussions about what she said, which is easier.

Most importantly, however, he understood how the mind of the person he lied to works, and gave Xykon exactly what he expected to hear rather than what was necessarily true. RC gave just enough information to suggest one of three possibilities. First, her access to the scroll could mean Xykon was playing her off against Redcloak. This is true, but since Xykon thinks he needs a high-level divine caster and Tsusiko is dead, is impertinent to mention. Second, as both a high level arcane and divine caster, Tsusiko could be making a play for the gates herself. This is untrue, but it's exactly what Xykon expects to hear, both because it allows him an out from admitting he betrayed Redcloak and because it's exactly what Xykon would do if he had both high-level divine and arcane spells. Which is also exactly why the third unmentioned possibility never arises in the discussion: the idea that Tsusiko's crazy idea was to be loyal to Xykon is logically possible from what Redcloak has said, and it has the virtue of being completely true, but since loyalty is a concept utterly alien to Xykon, it's not a possibility he considers.

[Forikroder]

hahahaha

and people thought hed care :smallamused:

interesting last panel from Jirix i wonder if that has any sort of foreshadowing... perhaps hes not as calm and obedient as hed want us to believe...:smallconfused:

[talkamancer]

Theurge. *groan*

[B. Dandelion]

Actually, the fact that they are EVIL DEMONIC roaches makes it an even more obvious choice.

I find it funny that people think that because evil demonic roaches are being stomped on, Jirix is evil and his reign will be a military state of slaughter.

It would seem that he is taking his aggression out on a tiny sentient helpless thing with no real provocation.

It's also, apparently, behavior he's only going to indulge in when his bosses aren't around to see it happen -- and I think that's what's telling, really. That there's this entire side to him that has apparently been repressed, which won't be in the future.

[wizuriel]

Looks like the race to Windy Canyon is going to get really intense really fast.

With OOTS, Team Evil and the Linear guild heading there....:D

[Calenestel]

Actually, the fact that they are EVIL DEMONIC roaches makes it an even more obvious choice.

I find it funny that people think that because evil demonic roaches are being stomped on, Jirix is evil and his reign will be a military state of slaughter.

and


It would seem that he is taking his aggression out on a tiny sentient helpless thing with no real provocation.

It's also, apparently, behavior he's only going to indulge in when his bosses aren't around to see it happen -- and I think that's what's telling, really. That there's this entire side to him that has apparently been repressed, which won't be in the future.

I beg to differ. The roaches did, as has been stated before, just watch a lich strangle him and what did they do? Crack jokes about it. The simplest explanation would be... payback. And the simplest solution really is the most probable. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) :smallwink:
Nine Hells, I'd jump up and down on them for half an hour to make sure they were dead myself. :smallamused:

[stack]

Of course, if Xykon had ANY suspicions about the whole plane-shift-the gate thing, he could instead plan to have it moved to his demi-plane. Not that he does know, but if he had somehow found that out, it would be a good plan.

[Werbaer]

Does anyone else wonder if Jirix is up to something? It seems odd that he would crush the demon roach like that. :smallconfused:

:roach: "A chance to whip this place into shape without distractions"

Jirix: removes a distraction and starts clearing the place

[talkamancer]

Theurge. *groan*

[Redgoblin]

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but Jirax actually looks upset about Tsukiko dying in the first panel (which would explain why he vented on a demon roach).

My other Jirax comment is this: do we actually know that Jirax was not the hobgoblins original supreme leader, and if he isn't, then where has this individual gone? As far as we know, that hobgoblin is still alive.

[Djibril]

Heck yeah, finally the emo chick kicked the bucket, and as expected no one gives a dingo kidney about it, well apart for the M.i.t.d., and on that note does anyone else find strange that X calls it Thing in the dark? or is it like when he called it a bozo?

Anyway great work Giant, i really missed team evil!

[Matuse]

Roachy! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[polipone]

That's a very interesting thought. He doesn't really need Redcloak until he has control of a gate.
Wait... what gate?

[B. Dandelion]

and



I beg to differ. The roaches did, as has been stated before, just watch a lich strangle him and what did they do? Crack jokes about it. The simplest explanation would be... payback. And the simplest solution really is the most probable. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) :smallwink:
Nine Hells, I'd jump up and down on them for half an hour to make sure they were dead myself. :smallamused:

What jokes related to Jirix? They don't seem to have commented on the strangulation.

Prior to this, he seemed to get along with them just fine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html). But the second Redcloak and Xykon are gone, he kills one, just as it compliments him on finally being in charge.

I don't think "revenge" is much more obvious and simplistic than "foreshadowing."

[Barstro]

DUUUUUUDE Rich just missed a killer joke
Redcloak: Gate.
MitD: What gate?

:smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

In the long list of things that are mathematically possible, but not likely;

MitD was gated in from another dimension, and as part of the spell keeping him on this plane, he is incapable of seeing gates.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Actually, almost all of Redcloak's statements to Xykon since his return have been literally true.
See Lesson One: Stick to as much of the truth as possible. :smallbiggrin:

[The Pilgrim]

Good job cleaning up the roaches, Jirix! :smallamused:

[Ancalagon]

Nice comic. And Xykon really is clichee, to bad his efforts were in vain. :)

[Phrozt]

Perhaps "I've had an occasion to off an uppity minion in my day" isn't so much back story as it is foreshadowing...

[warmachine]

I bet the blame shifting was planned by Redcloak all along. Mention to Jirix that Tsukiko can cast both parts of the Snarl gate ritual beforehand, wave the evidence in front of him, let him jump to the conclusion and it doesn't look like you have a conveniently prepared alibi.

[Miklus]

Is it wrong that I laughed at the last panel? Welcome to team evil, Jirix! You got a lot to learn, but you show great promise, young one!

Jirix squashed that bug as easily as Redcloak squashed Tsukiko and for pretty much the same reason: They where both midly annoying. I like how that was written, it shows how powerful and ruthless Redcloak really is. He is my favorite villan.

[Xapi]

It would seem that he is taking his aggression out on a tiny sentient helpless thing with no real provocation.

It's also, apparently, behavior he's only going to indulge in when his bosses aren't around to see it happen -- and I think that's what's telling, really. That there's this entire side to him that has apparently been repressed, which won't be in the future.

I love cherry picking adjectives. To your tiny sentient (and I'd dispute helpless, they seem to have some sort of fire breath ability) I'd raise you pure evil directly from the depths of Hell.

And Re: No provocation: they have been laughing at the expense of pretty much anyone around Xykon since the beggining, and a LOT of stuff has happened to Jirix and his ilk since then.

[resound]

You shall be avenged my demon-roach bretheren! :smallfurious:

[Dracarot]

Has anyone considered the issue of Varsuvius being stuck on another plane at the moment into consideration with this new information regarding the new location of the phylactery?

There is now a possibility that V will be adventuring across the planes and come across this fortress if things go awry with magic, and there is always that possibility of it occuring. We also have to consider the implications of her little deal as well, so who knows what will happen.

[Smolder]

No, seriously, WHO has the arcane half of the ritual?

Think of the ramifications! If Cyclops has both halves, he really doesn't even need Xykon anymore! If he found himself another high-level arcane spell-caster, do you think RC would think twice about severing his partnership with Xykon, if only to regrow his eye!

At first I thought Xykon would snatch it out of RC's hand on sight, but I see no such reaching gesture in the comic.

Maybe Xykon is going to wait until RC is deep in the new fortress on the Astral Plane to confront him on it. Nah, RC could just Gate away.

[B. Dandelion]

I love cherry picking adjectives. To your tiny sentient (and I'd dispute helpless, they seem to have some sort of fire breath ability) I'd raise you pure evil directly from the depths of Hell.

I'm not cherry-picking. I'm focusing on what they actually do. They almost never contribute to the actual plot as some sort of force to be reckoned with. They make snarky comments and run betting pools. When other characters interact with them hostilely, they are easily killed, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) overpowered, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) or intimidated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html).

I'm not saying "oh the poor bug." I don't care about or pity the roach. I simply think it says something about a character who kills one for no profitable reason. Especially if he doesn't do it, although he certainly could have, until his bosses have left the scene and he's being congratulated on finally being in charge.


And Re: No provocation: they have been laughing at the expense of pretty much anyone around Xykon since the beggining, and a LOT of stuff has happened to Jirix and his ilk since then.

He got along with them well enough before.

I don't seem to recall them cracking jokes about Jirix in particular.

If they really wanted to be nasty they'd do something like relay this conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) back to Xykon.

[luc258]

No, seriously, WHO has the arcane half of the ritual?

Think of the ramifications! If Cyclops has both halves, he really doesn't even need Xykon anymore! If he found himself another high-level arcane spell-caster, do you think RC would think twice about severing his partnership with Xykon, if only to regrow his eye!

At first I thought Xykon would snatch it out of RC's hand on sight, but I see no such reaching gesture in the comic.

Maybe Xykon is going to wait until RC is deep in the new fortress on the Astral Plane to confront him on it. Nah, RC could just Gate away.

Redcloak can write down another version of the arcane part anytime he wants. He wrote that version after all.

[Snurk]

Awesome strip as always..
That's the problem with evil parties..they kill eachother half the time..

[silvadel]

It is good that Xykon is in a hurry -- wouldnt want him to put the phycatlery to the test (IE die on purpose).

[Bad Hair Day]

How long before we see someone sign in to the forums with the handle:

Theurge4Asnack

?

[Frog Dragon]

I wonder what Redcloak hopes to achieve with this. It just basically ensures that if Xykon gets destroyed at some point, Redcloak is forced to finish the job before Xykon regenerates enough to kill him (keeping the phylactery is such obvious betrayal, I doubt Xykon would let it go if he knew. It'd be the end of their partnership, and knowing Xykon...).

Redcloak can't very well continue the Plan from the grave, especially considering Xykon's soul-binding tendencies. And since the plan needs a high level arcane caster, it's possible Xykon is Reddy's only option. So if Xykon ever gets destroyed, Redcloak can at best save himself by (finally) destroying Xykon, and the Plan is shot to hell.

And it doesn't seem to keep with what we know about Redcloak that he'd set up a situation where the Plan would be jeopardized in favor of getting rid of Xykon. Unless, of course, Redcloak thinks Xykon will put up with it (because of the effort he has already sunk into the ritual), and just hopes to use it to intimidate Xykon (that sounds... backwards).

[Fitzclowningham]

"My job is to help you capture a Gate and bring the power of the Snarl under our control." This is the one falsehood I noticed, and it's only false because Redcloak added the clause ". . . under our control" at the end. Unless "our" means "goblinkind, including our one and only god, the Dark One".

I think a case can be made that he's telling the truth here, too, if you think of it from Xykon's point of view. Xykon believes RC works for him, and also believes that the ritual will grant them control of the Snarl. Because RC works for him, it's up to Xykon to define his "job," and in his mind it basically amounts to what RC said it was. Whether it matches up to reality has no bearing on the truth of the statement.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Has anyone considered the issue of Varsuvius being stuck on another plane at the moment into consideration with this new information regarding the new location of the phylactery?

There is now a possibility that V will be adventuring across the planes and come across this fortress if things go awry with magic, and there is always that possibility of it occuring. We also have to consider the implications of her little deal as well, so who knows what will happen.

Vaarsuvius isn’t going to find it on his own. Planar travel spells are generally conjuration, one of V’s barred schools. V has to wait for Durkon or someone else to rescue him.

Unless maybe V finds a random portal to the Astral while waiting, I guess.

[Othniel Edden]

Xykon looks like he knows that he was outplayed.

[Cazaril]

I wonder what Redcloak hopes to achieve with this. It just basically ensures that if Xykon gets destroyed at some point, Redcloak is forced to finish the job before Xykon regenerates enough to kill him (keeping the phylactery is such obvious betrayal, I doubt Xykon would let it go if he knew. It'd be the end of their partnership, and knowing Xykon...).

Redcloak can't very well continue the Plan from the grave, especially considering Xykon's soul-binding tendencies. And since the plan needs a high level arcane caster, it's possible Xykon is Reddy's only option. So if Xykon ever gets destroyed, Redcloak can at best save himself by (finally) destroying Xykon, and the Plan is shot to hell.

And it doesn't seem to keep with what we know about Redcloak that he'd set up a situation where the Plan would be jeopardized in favor of getting rid of Xykon. Unless, of course, Redcloak thinks Xykon will put up with it (because of the effort he has already sunk into the ritual), and just hopes to use it to intimidate Xykon (that sounds... backwards).

My guess would be that at this point, Redcloak is more worried about Xykon getting out of his control than he is about Xykon dying. With the phylactery under Redcloak's control, he can use it as leverage should he ever need to stop Xykon from doing something. And if he destroys the phylactery but fails to kill Xykon himself (probably dying in the process), it would help to reduce the revenge which Xykon would take out on the goblin people (since Xykon would only need to be killed once).

[the_tick_rules]

Xykon not caring was exactly as I predicted. So now Xykon has a doom fortress? I guess that's not that unexpected. Poor random roach :smallfrown:

[fwiffo]

I wonder what Redcloak hopes to achieve with this. It just basically ensures that if Xykon gets destroyed at some point, Redcloak is forced to finish the job before Xykon regenerates enough to kill him (keeping the phylactery is such obvious betrayal, I doubt Xykon would let it go if he knew. It'd be the end of their partnership, and knowing Xykon...).

At some point, in Redcloak's plans, they succeed in casting the ritual, they get control over a gate... and... it goes to Dark One, not to Xykon as expected. At that point Xykon would need to be taken out, since having enraged high level lich is not good for your health, nor for the health of goblinkind in general, should Xykon take their revenge on them.

And if you do that, you dont want him safely regenerating on the remote plane, because you need to be working on destroying that phylactery and soon.

[Aricandor]

I think Redcloak just set it up to make sure he doesn't have to roll Bluff. :smallbiggrin:

[Jubal_Barca]

I've got very much the opposite feeling from Jirix as compared to many people here.

If he just wanted to be spiteful to the roaches, why not do it when Team Evil were around? I mean, it's not like he would have gotten into trouble for it. Killing creatures for the luls was pretty much how the higher-ups got their entertainment.

My suspicion is more that it relates to what the roach was saying. The words "whip this place into shape" imply heavy-handed, LE dictatorship to me. It echoes one of the later chapters of LOTR, where in the Scouring of the Shire one of the Ruffians tells the heroes that Sharkey will "lick this place into shape" or words to that effect. The words therefore just scream thuggish overlordship to me - and thus Jirix's boot a rejection of that way of doing business.

Possibly only in that Jirix is, like his mentor, a cleverer sort of Evil than that, but possibly equally because he genuinely believes in the goblin races being able to live free and happy lives in his city.

Or I may be wholly wrong. I can't wait to see.

[SoC175]

Well that explains what Xykon's been doing, epic genesis-like stuffs.Actually that's still "only" a level 9 spell.

[fruityjanitor]

Cool! Our first look at the Definitely Final Dungeon!

Would be fun to have a peek inside, but I have a feeling the next comic is going to go back to the OotS. Or maybe briefly introduce us to the Draketooths...

...Unless of course Xykon knows about RC's phylactery deception and just hasn't let on to it yet. Then maybe we'll get that reveal before going back to another group. I'm not getting the impression that Xykon knows, but it's possible.

After all, even though this looks very much like the Definitely Final Dungeon, I'm not sure why the OotS would come here if Xykon and RC only hide a fake phylactery here...

[Chi13iM]

Regarding Xykon's suspicions of Redcloak, I think people overestimate Xykon's cunning. Certainly he isn't as stupid as most think he is (he has made that abundantly clear), and Redcloak has personally suffered in the past for looking down on Xykon's intellect.

Which is precisely why I think Redcloak really is pulling one over on Xykon here. No one is more aware of how perceptive or intelligent Xykon is than Redcloak, and this time around Redcloak is taking every precaution to make certain to keep Xykon in the dark. Previous times when Redcloak was burned for deceiving Xykon, he had been caught blatantly lying to him (hence Bluff checks). Both villains are at a disadvantage against each other regarding their Bluff and Sense Motive checks; Sense Motive is not a sorcerer class skill, Bluff is not a cleric class skill, thus it comes down to misc modifiers. Xykon has the advantage since I believe liches gain a racial bonus to Sense Motive. Thus, every time Redcloak actively lied to Xykon, Xykon had the advantage of knowing.

Now, however, Redcloak has been very cautious to not actually lie to Xykon (for the most part). Nearly everything that he has said in these last few chapters have instead been carefully worded truths or half-truths, which would either give him a substantial bonus to his Bluff checks (enough to even the playing field), or allow him to forgo Bluff checks altogether. Hell, if anything, Xykon might be suspicious of the fact that, unlike previous times, his Sense Motive isn't telling him anything.

Also, Xykon has continued to display no suspicion regarding the one thing Redcloak wants to keep hidden; the true nature of the Ritual and the Gates. So long as Xykon remains in the dark about that (and its pretty obvious that Xykon is still operating under the impression that the Ritual will allow him to control the gate), then Redcloak is still firmly in the drivers seat for team evil, even if he is more than willing to allow Xykon to drive for the time being.

[Ravellion]

Maybe Jirix was afraid the roach might act as a spy or tell-tale?

[eusticepious]

On the second page, third panel what spell is Redcloak casting. It looks like he initiates teleport at the end of the first page. THe spell is not there in the second panel on the second page, but is back in the third panel...

[chopswil2]

I don't think Xykon buys Recloaks' reason for killing Tsukiko.
He's just giving Redcloak enough rope to hang himself by playing along that he buys his reason

[Frog Dragon]

At some point, in Redcloak's plans, they succeed in casting the ritual, they get control over a gate... and... it goes to Dark One, not to Xykon as expected. At that point Xykon would need to be taken out, since having enraged high level lich is not good for your health, nor for the health of goblinkind in general, should Xykon take their revenge on them.

And if you do that, you dont want him safely regenerating on the remote plane, because you need to be working on destroying that phylactery and soon.
That's true, but if anything goes south for them before the ritual, and Xykon gets destroyed again... Also, even after the ritual, if Xykon is still walking around, Redcloak is pretty much screwed regardless. Redcloak is powerful, sure, but he isn't a match for Xykon. I'm pretty sure he expects to die for the plan anyway.

[brionl]

Maybe they'll be Goth Yankees (dressed in red, BLACK and blue). Jones and Rodriguez can debate whether they constitute fair use or foul (Rodriguez: "they didn't look like poultry?").

Githyanki and Githzerai are in the SRD in the Psionics section. Along with Half-Giants & Thrikeen.

[Omergideon]

Well this seems to be the end of the current Team Evil storyline. As a whole it has been interesting, full of character development and with one stand out strip. The rest has been pretty good as well.....almost. Thinking about doing my full thoughts on it some other time, but for now lets review this strip itself.

Now it lacks the "oomph" moments of some of the other recent strips, or the hilariously awesome climax of the previous one. but it presents a satisfying end to the story itself for now. Overall I liked it. Just 3 strips with Xykon and I realise more how much Team Evil relies on the dynamic between the main characters as much as the OoTS does. I may add some final thoughts on that dynamic at the end, but for now here are my views.

The Good:
1) The resolution of the conflict is prefectly played. It is not the "ha ha, so funny" some predicted, and would probably have been improper with the new TE dynamic. It was not anger, or obvious suspicions. It was, overall, very plausible and well written. The inclusion of Jirix was also an excellent touch, adding plausibility to Reddy's reasons. The character impacts of it will be my next point, but I liked how the reaction was written. Slightly unexpected but wholly plausible.
2) And the TE dynamics and the character impacts are all well done. Xykon is decieving Redcloak, and I personally think Reddy knows it. Redcloak is decieving Xykon as well, but it seems more successfully thanks to Jirix. A Veneer of trust has been restored to the team. But the old jokeyness between X and R is gone. there is an unspoken tension there seen in small things like Xykon snatching his Phylactory back. This is wonderfully tantalising for future developments and I cannot wait.
3) Again I must focus on one character reaction. the MiTD. His reaction was the first thing to make me really feel for Tsukiko and it was such wonderful pathos......I loved this moment. And it shows how MiTD has changed, becoming more aware of the interactions between others etc. The one panel focus......I can see this being more significant later. However this moment moved me. I found Tsukiko annoying but it is causing me to reassess my judgements on her. Kudos Giant.
4) Finally the general artwork is fairly good, with great expressions on all characters. Redcloaks knowing smirk at Xykon's back....priceless. The Astral plane looked nice. And there was a good stream of small jokes throughout the strip, especially from the Roaches.

The Bad:
1) I only have one real complaint for this strip. The ending. It is not an especially strong moment and, while I agree we needed something this did not do it for me. Jirix has never shown this side before and whilst I like new character sides it comes out of nowhere in my eyes. And it lacked the shock factor, humour or other elements to give it power. This is a pretty strong critique IF this is the last in the mini arc. If not then this problem becomes less serious, though still present.

Overall I am tempted to give this strip a dual rating *** if it is the last in the arc. ***1/2 if it is not. A good strip, entertaining and fun. It advanced the story and character dynamics of TE and provides an...adequate cap to the story for now. But the ending lacks power and the other elements are not quite strong enough to push the rating up. Though I did not expect them to be.

I think I'll save my thoughts on Recloak etc for another time, but for now, this is my opinion.

[Roland Itiative]

I've had a huge feeling of déjà vu with the first panels of the comic... Weird :smalltongue: Anyway, it's interesting how RC managed to manipulate Xykon without telling a single lie. Jirix's actions on the final panels were also really interesting, I'm looking forward for what he'll do now that Gobbotopia is actually all his.

Oh, and it's always nice to have some obscure hint about the MitD's identity.

[Moriarty]

I don't think Xykon buys Recloaks' reason for killing Tsukiko.
He's just giving Redcloak enough rope to hang himself by playing along that he buys his reason

of course he doesn't believe redcloak. he just got outplayed and he knows it.

When redcloak suggested tsukiko was acting on her own and had stolen xykons half, he HAD to agree with redcloak that she was a traitor and deserved to be killed. If he admitted he gave her his half, he would've directly admitted that he doesn't want redcloak around anymore and is working on a way to pursue the plan on his own, thus forcing a confrontation between redcloak and xykon. Xykon would win at this point, but in killing redcloak, he would loose the divine half of the ritual permanently.

[Blaznak]

Not a bad interlude and a bit more (maybe) info on the MitD!

[Zordrath]

I'm a bit disappointed that all Xykon has been doing these past few months was building up a vast impressive fortress to hide a totally useless item. I was hoping for some more badass villainy from him, especially after all we've seen Redcloak do recently. I'm not sure if he bought all of Redcloak's explanations, but if he did, RC now has a massive advantage over him. I hope I didnt overestimate him that much...

[Flame of Anor]

DUUUUUUDE Rich just missed a killer joke
Redcloak: Gate.
MitD: What gate?

:smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:


In the long list of things that are mathematically possible, but not likely;

MitD was gated in from another dimension, and as part of the spell keeping him on this plane, he is incapable of seeing gates.

I love both of these.

[StrykerX]

Why Jirix killed the roach, specifically? Is it just a way to say "now I am in charge"?

Edit: Nija'd. I still wanna know. :smallwink:

Well, the roach was talking about Jirix being able to whip the place into shape now that the distractions were gone. Judging by the pause at the end, the roach realized that it was also a distraction right before the orange foot came down. :smalltongue:

[Dr.Epic]

Well, Jirix is now my least favorite character. Celia, you just moved up a rank.

[Anarion]

"Theurge for a snack" hehe, demon roaches, you will be missed.

Great comic though. I really liked the art effect for the astral plane, and as others have noted there was a MitD hint, some machinations by Jirix and the Xykon/Redcloak dynamic continues to develop with both of them trying to keep their secrets and strengthen their own position. I'd give Redcloak the advantage here, I think the fake phylactery was an excellent plan.

[ti'esar]

Looks like Redcloak pulled it off, though I expected he would after last strip. At least for the moment...

I love Xykon's Astral Plane "Fortress of Doom". Very him. I'd be hesitant about calling it as the Final Dungeon, though.

And some interesting behavior from Jirix. I'm never going to feel sorry for a demon-roach, but the way that was played out definitely suggests an "eek" moment, regardless of his motives. Yet at the same time, his reaction in the first panel reads oddly as if he's the only one (besides the MitD) who's actually upset by Tsukiko's death. I'm more then a little curious to know how that sentence would have ended.

[SmaugTheYounger]

SoD spoiler:
Jirix' squishing of the roach looked oddly similar to the end of SoD, when Redcloak, after lots of abuse by Xykon, lost his cool with the MiD.

Also, I think, Redcloak is not in the clear with the phylactery swapping.
My bet: He will cast the protective spells, and then Xykon will make him hand over the real thing. Also a lot like SoD, when he actually threatened to destroy it, just to have Xykon call his bluff.

[Giggling Ghast]

Xykon's fortress reminds me a lot of an adventure I saw once in an old Dragon magazine. There was accompanying artwork that depicted a group of adventurers approaching an abandoned temple floating in the Astral Plane. In the adventure, the party encounters a group of githyanki and tries to find a lost magical blade that was once wielded by a paladin.

I wonder if Xykon's fortress is a reference to that adventure.

[LordRahl6]

While this is been a pretty good strip, I have to agree that it doesn't yet fulfill the promise of the end of a book. Should Rich eventually want to put a break around here this would not be it. Perhaps if we saw the astral plane fortress's inside with its near epicness then I'd go for it being an end.:smallwink:

[kreszantas]

Perhaps "I've had an occasion to off an uppity minion in my day" isn't so much back story as it is foreshadowing...

Nah this is Xykon refering to what the result will be if you cross him.

It was actually foreshadowed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) when Theurge decided to take things beyond professional. :smallyuk:

[Starscream]

I now imagine the demon roaches as sounding like the Prinnies from Disgaea when they talk. No one can convince me otherwise.

Awesome strip. I really want a map of that fortress.

[ti'esar]

While this is been a pretty good strip, I have to agree that it doesn't yet fulfill the promise of the end of a book. Should Rich eventually want to put a break around here this would not be it. Perhaps if we saw the astral plane fortress's inside with its near epicness then I'd go for it being an end.:smallwink:

While it looks like this book is going to end before the Big Showdown at Girard's Gate, I don't see why anyone would think it's that imminent. At most this is the end of the Team Evil arc - I think there's a good chance we'll be back to the Order or someone else next strip - but it doesn't seem like an ending to anything more then that.

[Antacid]

"Theurge for a snack" is officially the best pun ever written.

That is all.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I'm a bit disappointed that all Xykon has been doing these past few months was building up a vast impressive fortress to hide a totally useless item.
He was building the fortress for the real phylactery, which, to Xykon is far from useless. If he puts the useless fake there, that’s his problem. But otherwise it would have been time well spent.

[Agnostik]

:elan: Ooh, evil fortress... tomb... thingie!

[SamBurke]

Well, well, well... things seem to be coming together.

Xykon really needs some more sense motive, though.

[Siosilvar]

On the second page, third panel what spell is Redcloak casting. It looks like he initiates teleport at the end of the first page. THe spell is not there in the second panel on the second page, but is back in the third panel...

He doesn't cast anything on the first page; he's getting ready to cast when Xykon interrupts and tells him they need to go to the Astral. Second page, third panel is gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), which we get to see in that first wide pane.

[luc258]

I hope we get to see what happens with Gobbotopia in the coming strips. At least some small cut scenes :D

[Zordrath]

He was building the fortress for the real phylactery, which, to Xykon is far from useless. If he puts the useless fake there, that’s his problem. But otherwise it would have been time well spent.
True, but that's my point. From Xykon's point of view, he's only done what any self-respecting overlord would. But from a reader's point of view, our main villain has been mysteriously absent for months and when he returns, it turns out all he's been doing was finding the most elaborate way of demonstrating that he has fallen for Redcloak's ruse. I found that a bit disappointing and anti-climactic, in spite of how impressive the fortress itself is. I just thought he'd be doing something a bit more impactful.

Of course, that's speaking as a Xykon fanboy. With my Redcloak fanboy hat on, these past few strips have been awesome... :smallamused:

[pendell]

I love cherry picking adjectives. To your tiny sentient (and I'd dispute helpless, they seem to have some sort of fire breath ability) I'd raise you pure evil directly from the depths of Hell.


The demon roaches do indeed have fire-breathing ability. In Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, in a bonus strip, the roaches use their fire breath to destroy several zombies.

It looks to me as if the demon roaches were tolerated because Xykon liked them. Now that Xykon is gone, their usefulness is at an end. The goblins never liked them to begin with, and now they can finally act as they wish, without the mask.

Interesting foreshadowing of the end of Wrong-eye's and Xykon's partnership, don't you think.

I also have to wonder if Rich isn't trying to tell us something about the nature of the comic. He just killed off a comic relief character. We know that Belkar is not destined to live much longer, and he is also a comic relief character. Does this presage a turn from OOTS from lighthearted comedy to a more serious, dramatic story? At least for a few strips?

Is the removal of the roaches a temporary, or is this a permanent action which will last for the duration of the comic? If so, does that mean that henceforth Team Evil will be much more darker, much less funny?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Azukar]

So I can kinda see the climax of the Xykon storyline now...

After things are sorted out with the Gates, or at least after Xykon's phylactery is destroyed, he and possibly Redcloak retreat into the centre of his new Astral Plain Dungeon, leading the OotS to go hunt him down.

Cue the team crawling through a dungeon inhabited by Xykon, armed with traps and spells and so on - ending the series the way it began!

Edit: Oh, and Jirix apparently suffers from Genre Blindness. "We should have no trouble now that the rebels have been eliminated"... Oh dear. He's in for a world of hurt.

[Kobold-Bard]

..

Is the removal of the roaches a temporary, or is this a permanent action which will last for the duration of the comic? If so, does that mean that henceforth Team Evil will be much more darker, much less funny?

...

Well based on them saying they'll write every day, I assume that at least some of the others have gone with X & RC.

[Xapi]

The demon roaches do indeed have fire-breathing ability. In Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, in a bonus strip, the roaches use their fire breath to destroy several zombies.

It looks to me as if the demon roaches were tolerated because Xykon liked them. Now that Xykon is gone, their usefulness is at an end. The goblins never liked them to begin with, and now they can finally act as they wish, without the mask.

Interesting foreshadowing of the end of Wrong-eye's and Xykon's partnership, don't you think.

I also have to wonder if Rich isn't trying to tell us something about the nature of the comic. He just killed off a comic relief character. We know that Belkar is not destined to live much longer, and he is also a comic relief character. Does this presage a turn from OOTS from lighthearted comedy to a more serious, dramatic story? At least for a few strips?

Is the removal of the roaches a temporary, or is this a permanent action which will last for the duration of the comic? If so, does that mean that henceforth Team Evil will be much more darker, much less funny?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think it's likely we'll see the roaches again around Team Evil. What I think is being signaled here is that Jirix (and the city-state he is heading) is no longer part of that team.

[Smolder]

Don't worry. I get the feeling from the fact that there were at least four in the room that Demon Roaches probably multiply as fast as real roaches, if not faster. If the OotS card game is any indication, they do. The castle is probably crawling with them by now.

[hamishspence]

I also have to wonder if Rich isn't trying to tell us something about the nature of the comic. He just killed off a comic relief character. We know that Belkar is not destined to live much longer, and he is also a comic relief character. Does this presage a turn from OOTS from lighthearted comedy to a more serious, dramatic story? At least for a few strips?

Is the removal of the roaches a temporary, or is this a permanent action which will last for the duration of the comic? If so, does that mean that henceforth Team Evil will be much more darker, much less funny?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

A roach appears to get killed here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html

however, fiends killed off their own plane tend to resurrect after a few years (centuries?) - even if they're actually on the other plane, rather than temporarily summoned.

[t209]

A roach appears to get killed here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html

however, fiends killed off their own plane tend to resurrect after a few years (centuries?) - even if they're actually on the other plane, rather than temporarily summoned.

So, they're like Butt Monkeys, along with azurites and Daigo?

[HalfTangible]

I think it's likely we'll see the roaches again around Team Evil. What I think is being signaled here is that Jirix (and the city-state he is heading) is no longer part of that team.

And here i thought the roach was just one of the 'distractions' Jirix wanted to get rid of. :smalltongue:

Am I seriously the only one who thought that?

[hamishspence]

The demon roaches do indeed have fire-breathing ability. In Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, in a bonus strip, the roaches use their fire breath to destroy several zombies.

There's a few in-strip moments too:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html

[Cirin]

Interesting that the AP even exists in this cosmology, but I suppose teleportation etc. wouldn't be possible without it...


Why?

It certainly looks like OotS uses the 1e/2e/3e standard "Great Wheel" cosmology.

Roy went to what is pretty much standard Seven Heavens/Mount Celestia in description once he was past the pearly gates, there was the passing reference to Pandemonium by the IFCC (with a Modron doing outsourced technical support as a sight gag), and the IFCC themselves are a reference to the Blood War between Hell/Baator and the Abyss with Hades/Grey Waste stuck in the middle. Now they have the Astral Plane.

[hamishspence]

Why?

It certainly looks like OotS uses the 1e/2e/3e standard "Great Wheel" cosmology.

Roy went to what is pretty much standard Seven Heavens/Mount Celestia in description once he was past the pearly gates, there was the passing reference to Pandemonium by the IFCC (with a Modron doing outsourced technical support as a sight gag), and the IFCC themselves are a reference to the Blood War between Hell/Baator and the Abyss with Hades/Grey Waste stuck in the middle. Now they have the Astral Plane.

"Nirvana" (old name for Mechanus) "Valhalla" (old name for Ysgard) and Limbo all get mentioned here- as well as "a dozen in between".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

I think supporting the idea that it's Great Wheel cosmology they use.

[rewinn]

I believe its official, they both are lying to each other and they both KNOW they are being lied to. ...

I'm hoping some day for a "Lion in Winter" scene:

"I know. You know I know. I know you know I know. We know Henry knows, and Henry knows we know it. We're a knowledgeable family." :smallbiggrin:

[Matuse]

Squishing a normal roach is pretty gross. Squishing a demonic roach with your bare foot must be really vile.

[Gift Jeraff]

"Nirvana" (old name for Mechanus) "Valhalla" (old name for Ysgard) and Limbo all get mentioned here- as well as "a dozen in between".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

I think supporting the idea that it's Great Wheel cosmology they use.Carceri was also mentioned a few strips ago. Plus, The Tragedy of Greenhilt flat-out says there are 16 Outer Planes revolving around the central axis of reality, or something to that effect.

[ti'esar]

The demon roaches do indeed have fire-breathing ability. In Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, in a bonus strip, the roaches use their fire breath to destroy several zombies.

It looks to me as if the demon roaches were tolerated because Xykon liked them. Now that Xykon is gone, their usefulness is at an end. The goblins never liked them to begin with, and now they can finally act as they wish, without the mask.

Interesting foreshadowing of the end of Wrong-eye's and Xykon's partnership, don't you think.

I also have to wonder if Rich isn't trying to tell us something about the nature of the comic. He just killed off a comic relief character. We know that Belkar is not destined to live much longer, and he is also a comic relief character. Does this presage a turn from OOTS from lighthearted comedy to a more serious, dramatic story? At least for a few strips?

Is the removal of the roaches a temporary, or is this a permanent action which will last for the duration of the comic? If so, does that mean that henceforth Team Evil will be much more darker, much less funny?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The roaches are far from gone - three of them apparently went through the gate with Team Evil. It's Jirix who seems less likely to be seen after this.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think Jirix stepped on the roach because he's sick of them hanging around, stinking the place up and making snide comments, but he didn't dare do anything while his "guests" were still there. It's kind of like someone giving you an absolutely dreadful picture to hang on your wall, and as soon as you see their car rolling down the driveway, it hits the trash despite your tolerating it until then for diplomacy's sake.

Also, I have to admit liking Xykon's Astral fortress-tomb.

And, that's a pretty big piece of evidence about the MitD right there. I can't help thinking that Mr. Burlew threw out that evidence because the Monster's going to be revealed soon, and he's giving us a last chance to guess the MitD's identity before that moment arrives. Alternatively, I could be barking up the completely wrong tree with this.

[Crœsos]

It looks to me as if the demon roaches were tolerated because Xykon liked them. Now that Xykon is gone, their usefulness is at an end. The goblins never liked them to begin with, and now they can finally act as they wish, without the mask.

True enough. Redcloak (Jirix's mentor) never liked the demon roaches from the start (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) and has even tried to get rid of them with an overly-elaborate plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) in the past. I'm not sure Jirix's actions are driven by any deeper motive than just not liking bugs.

[Raistlin82]

Oh gee... oh gee...

What if Redcloak finds an arcane spell-caster that is not Xykon to cast the other half of the ritual?

Also, I can't shake off this nagging feeling that the arcane part of the ritual will be executed by Darth V.
It doesn't take more than a few minutes, I guess...

[The MunchKING]

The problem is, what benefit would it be for the IFCC to give control of the Gate to the Dark One?? THEY don't give a **** whether Goblins get a better lot in life, and if it DOES actually break out and kill the Good Gods, a whole mess of the Evil ones will probably die too.

[Incom]

Ooh, more MITD bait!

He knows what the AP is like despite not remembering ever being there.

I can practically hear the sound of everyone flipping through their sourcebooks...

Great strip.

[The MunchKING]

The demon roaches do indeed have fire-breathing ability. In Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, in a bonus strip, the roaches use their fire breath to destroy several zombies.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) Belkar uses them to cook a stew, and Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) uses one to light her Moltov cocktail. So yeah, they got firebreath.

[eusticepious]

Well this seems to be the end of the current Team Evil storyline. As a whole it has been interesting, full of character development and with one stand out strip. The rest has been pretty good as well.....almost. Thinking about doing my full thoughts on it some other time, but for now lets review this strip itself.

Now it lacks the "oomph" moments of some of the other recent strips, or the hilariously awesome climax of the previous one. but it presents a satisfying end to the story itself for now. Overall I liked it. Just 3 strips with Xykon and I realise more how much Team Evil relies on the dynamic between the main characters as much as the OoTS does. I may add some final thoughts on that dynamic at the end, but for now here are my views.

The Good:
1) The resolution of the conflict is prefectly played. It is not the "ha ha, so funny" some predicted, and would probably have been improper with the new TE dynamic. It was not anger, or obvious suspicions. It was, overall, very plausible and well written. The inclusion of Jirix was also an excellent touch, adding plausibility to Reddy's reasons. The character impacts of it will be my next point, but I liked how the reaction was written. Slightly unexpected but wholly plausible.
2) And the TE dynamics and the character impacts are all well done. Xykon is decieving Redcloak, and I personally think Reddy knows it. Redcloak is decieving Xykon as well, but it seems more successfully thanks to Jirix. A Veneer of trust has been restored to the team. But the old jokeyness between X and R is gone. there is an unspoken tension there seen in small things like Xykon snatching his Phylactory back. This is wonderfully tantalising for future developments and I cannot wait.
3) Again I must focus on one character reaction. the MiTD. His reaction was the first thing to make me really feel for Tsukiko and it was such wonderful pathos......I loved this moment. And it shows how MiTD has changed, becoming more aware of the interactions between others etc. The one panel focus......I can see this being more significant later. However this moment moved me. I found Tsukiko annoying but it is causing me to reassess my judgements on her. Kudos Giant.
4) Finally the general artwork is fairly good, with great expressions on all characters. Redcloaks knowing smirk at Xykon's back....priceless. The Astral plane looked nice. And there was a good stream of small jokes throughout the strip, especially from the Roaches.

The Bad:
1) I only have one real complaint for this strip. The ending. It is not an especially strong moment and, while I agree we needed something this did not do it for me. Jirix has never shown this side before and whilst I like new character sides it comes out of nowhere in my eyes. And it lacked the shock factor, humour or other elements to give it power. This is a pretty strong critique IF this is the last in the mini arc. If not then this problem becomes less serious, though still present.

Overall I am tempted to give this strip a dual rating *** if it is the last in the arc. ***1/2 if it is not. A good strip, entertaining and fun. It advanced the story and character dynamics of TE and provides an...adequate cap to the story for now. But the ending lacks power and the other elements are not quite strong enough to push the rating up. Though I did not expect them to be.

I think I'll save my thoughts on Recloak etc for another time, but for now, this is my opinion.

Wow, Omergideon. Wow. Wow. Wow. Do you work in "the industry?" Thank you for sharing your thoughts, not to mention precise analytic skills, with us all.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

But from a reader's point of view, our main villain has been mysteriously absent for months and when he returns, it turns out all he's been doing was finding the most elaborate way of demonstrating that he has fallen for Redcloak's ruse.
There is nothing elaborate in the way Xykon fell for Redcloak’s ruse. All the elaborate stuff with the fortress would have happened just as well without Redcloak’s shenanigans.

[eusticepious]

Well this seems to be the end of the current Team Evil storyline. As a whole it has been interesting, full of character development and with one stand out strip. The rest has been pretty good as well.....almost. Thinking about doing my full thoughts on it some other time, but for now lets review this strip itself.

Now it lacks the "oomph" moments of some of the other recent strips, or the hilariously awesome climax of the previous one. but it presents a satisfying end to the story itself for now. Overall I liked it. Just 3 strips with Xykon and I realise more how much Team Evil relies on the dynamic between the main characters as much as the OoTS does. I may add some final thoughts on that dynamic at the end, but for now here are my views.

The Good:
1) The resolution of the conflict is prefectly played. It is not the "ha ha, so funny" some predicted, and would probably have been improper with the new TE dynamic. It was not anger, or obvious suspicions. It was, overall, very plausible and well written. The inclusion of Jirix was also an excellent touch, adding plausibility to Reddy's reasons. The character impacts of it will be my next point, but I liked how the reaction was written. Slightly unexpected but wholly plausible.
2) And the TE dynamics and the character impacts are all well done. Xykon is decieving Redcloak, and I personally think Reddy knows it. Redcloak is decieving Xykon as well, but it seems more successfully thanks to Jirix. A Veneer of trust has been restored to the team. But the old jokeyness between X and R is gone. there is an unspoken tension there seen in small things like Xykon snatching his Phylactory back. This is wonderfully tantalising for future developments and I cannot wait.
3) Again I must focus on one character reaction. the MiTD. His reaction was the first thing to make me really feel for Tsukiko and it was such wonderful pathos......I loved this moment. And it shows how MiTD has changed, becoming more aware of the interactions between others etc. The one panel focus......I can see this being more significant later. However this moment moved me. I found Tsukiko annoying but it is causing me to reassess my judgements on her. Kudos Giant.
4) Finally the general artwork is fairly good, with great expressions on all characters. Redcloaks knowing smirk at Xykon's back....priceless. The Astral plane looked nice. And there was a good stream of small jokes throughout the strip, especially from the Roaches.

The Bad:
1) I only have one real complaint for this strip. The ending. It is not an especially strong moment and, while I agree we needed something this did not do it for me. Jirix has never shown this side before and whilst I like new character sides it comes out of nowhere in my eyes. And it lacked the shock factor, humour or other elements to give it power. This is a pretty strong critique IF this is the last in the mini arc. If not then this problem becomes less serious, though still present.

Overall I am tempted to give this strip a dual rating *** if it is the last in the arc. ***1/2 if it is not. A good strip, entertaining and fun. It advanced the story and character dynamics of TE and provides an...adequate cap to the story for now. But the ending lacks power and the other elements are not quite strong enough to push the rating up. Though I did not expect them to be.

I think I'll save my thoughts on Recloak etc for another time, but for now, this is my opinion.

Wow, Omergideon. Wow. Wow. Wow. Do you work in "the industry?" Thank you for sharing your thoughts, not to mention precise analytic skills, with us all.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, I can't shake off this nagging feeling that the arcane part of the ritual will be executed by Darth V.
It doesn't take more than a few minutes, I guess...A few weeks, actually. (Panel 8) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)

[PhantomFox]

I'm not sure what to say that actually hasn't been said already. This is giving vibes of being the Very Final Dungeon, but if the Phylactery isn't going there, when will it? If it's being mentioned, it's going to be used.

[Shale]

Regarding Jirix's sudden change in tone: Bear in mind that we have literally never seen him as the most powerful guy in the room. And judging from his speech, we already know that he has a feel for how to change his tone in order to present the right image. He's a humble jokester with the masses, a pragmatic underling with Redcloak, and now we're seeing what he's like when he's in charge. It never really occurred to me before, but going back to his earlier strips this was reasonably well-set-up

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Regarding Jirix's sudden change in tone: Bear in mind that we have literally never seen him as the most powerful guy in the room. And judging from his speech, we already know that he has a feel for how to change his tone in order to present the right image. He's a humble jokester with the masses, a pragmatic underling with Redcloak, and now we're seeing what he's like when he's in charge. It never really occurred to me before, but going back to his earlier strips this was reasonably well-set-up
Jirix: Goblin of a Thousand Faces.

Well, at least three, anyways.

[Golden-Esque]

Calling that "Jirix" is actually a member of the Sapphire Guard.

[Thuran]

Hmm, regardign Mitd caring about tsukiko, we have already seen that he can simply wish people away, would he also in theory be able to accidentaly wish her back to life? If so that would throw one hell of a spanner in the works for Redcloak.

[Tetsujin-28]

I don't think Jirix's squashing on the bug implies any "evil side", I think that he squashed the bug because its comment kind of implied a barbaric, thuggish idea of ruling. Plus, the bugs were always ***** anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

Whatever spell Redcloak got interrupted casting here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) is almost certain to come back and bite him in his green keister.
You know, I want goblinoids to, if not win per sae, at least reach a mutual understanding with the other humanoid races. He's right that they have been down trodden and persecuted for generations and it's time for this to stop.
Not Xykon though, dudes crazy, he needs a good stopping.

[OracleofWuffing]

A few weeks, actually. (Panel 8) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)
Hm... Wonder if Evil V can do the ritual from the timeless Astral Plane, then.

[Bulldog Psion]

Whatever spell Redcloak got interrupted casting here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) is almost certain to come back and bite him in his green keister.

He wasn't interrupted. It's a cut scene with continued casting being implied, IMO.

[The MunchKING]

Whatever spell Redcloak got interrupted casting here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) is almost certain to come back and bite him in his green keister.
I don't think he was interupted in anything so much as "10 minutes pass as he heads to the throne room"

[One Skunk Todd]

Cool! It's like some unholy Fortress of Solitude.

[Ridureyu]

Hm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there ways to rules-lawyer and collapse the part of the Astral Plane with Xykon's fortress, or otherwise make it wink out of existence in most editions?


Anyway, the best way to hide your phylactery is to make it look like a random rock, and add it to the building supplies for the king's castle.

Or toss it in the ocean while flying at top speed.

Or make it into a random coin. Make a donation to some orphans in a small town far from where you live.

[Laser_Bard]

Apropos of nothing, a few of my thoughts on this strip and the discussion that's followed.

First, props to Rich for being able to make a very brief authorial aside by way of the MitD on the subject of Tsukiko's death. I admit I found myself getting too caught up in Redcloak's moment of triumph to recognize that there was also a tragedy finishing itself off in the same strip. So on that note I'll say rest in peace, Tsukiko. May the sentient corpses of whichever lower plane you end up on be consenting.

Second, regarding the doom fortress, I really don't think that's going to be the Final Dungeon, simply because there's no payoff for it. I think seeing it is payoff by itself: now we know what Xykon was up to and how this ties into Redcloak's gambit, so we have another piece of data in our arsenal. Ultimately it feels like an aside, rather than the meat of the story.

Third, regarding the demon roach... I really think it was a gag to end the strip on, rather than anything deep or sinister. You have comic relief making his own little speech, a reaction shot, a breather panel and then the punchline. That's my theory, anyway.

On the whole I'll certainly join the chorus of those calling this one a good strip. It's certainly payoff for the last few.

[skaddix]

Xykon totally knows how she got the ritual. As Team Evil moves towards the endgame.

[TaRix]

Hm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there ways to rules-lawyer and collapse the part of the Astral Plane with Xykon's fortress, or otherwise make it wink out of existence in most editions?


Anyway, the best way to hide your phylactery is to make it look like a random rock, and add it to the building supplies for the king's castle.

Or toss it in the ocean while flying at top speed.

Or make it into a random coin. Make a donation to some orphans in a small town far from where you live.

The problem of hiding the phylactery in plain sight (out of your control, anyway) is that when it's being used, its cover is pretty much blown and the user's still vulnerable. It took a while for Xykon to regenerate, at least a few days' travel.
How would a city react if one of its coins started springing bony appendages? First the city guard would start hacking away at it, and if that didn't work, there'd still be time to send for an arcane consultant.
As for the castle idea, would it be possible to regenerate into/through solid masonry?

[KoboldRevenge]

Mayhap Jirix was told by Redcloak to kill the roach. On accounts he was a spy for either Xykon or the IFCC.

I don't know how he'd know about the latter though. He most likely assumed Xykon was using them.

[Shale]

Given that Xykon was afraid of the possibility of manifesting inside a fish's stomach, being hacked at with swords while powerless would probably be much worse.

[Ridureyu]

I've actually heard of both of those being used. Nobody noticed the coin because it was one among many in a vault that wasn't opened much - although just dropping it somewhere, say, in the woods would be better. With the brick, it was in the corner in a basement. Nobody had time to really notice again.

[ti'esar]

When has it ever been implied that the demon roaches have any connection whatsoever to the IFCC?

[AxesOfEvil]

How was Redcloak able to cast 'Gate'? It is a 9th level spell, yet I would have thought he'd be out of 9ths from his fight with the resistance?

[brionl]

Mayhap Jirix was told by Redcloak to kill the roach. On accounts he was a spy for either Xykon or the IFCC.

I don't know how he'd know about the latter though. He most likely assumed Xykon was using them.

Guys, it's Gobbotopia not Roachotopia. He killed it because it's A) A Roach, 2) A Demon, III) An annoying distraction. There's no sinister foreshadowing of a deeper plot development.

[Flame of Anor]

Well, Jirix is now my least favorite character. Celia, you just moved up a rank.

Huh? Just for stomping one of the annoying roaches?

Gotta agree with you on Celia, though.

[Omergideon]

Wow, Omergideon. Wow. Wow. Wow. Do you work in "the industry?" Thank you for sharing your thoughts, not to mention precise analytic skills, with us all.

Never worked in the industry. Fan fiction only for me. I lack the art skills and my dialogue is..........choppy at best. But I am a fan and try to always explain my thoughts well. If you think it good, thanks. My parents say I over analyse everything. :smallredface:

Still my only intent ever is to say "I dis/liked this strip for reasons x". I just wanted to give it a bit more depth than a simple "awesome strip" comment. And maybe start a discussion. I still remember the old Miko threads......:smallfrown:



Anywho, to give some actual conversation content........I am almost tempted to call the MiTD's reaction to Tsukiko a subtle take that to all of us who celebrated her death. A reminder that she was a "real" character supposed to make us think about things. Not just a plot device to provide an infodump. So not only is the MiTD's reaction a sign of HIS growing rift with Team Evil, in a beatifully crafted way. It is also a call for us to remember the major trouble with evil....it does not care. If you are useful to it you get to stay around. If you are not, then forgotten in an instant. Whatever your desires, dreams or hopes......evil does not care. That is the tradegy of Tsukiko I think. And those of us who celebrated it....perhaps a moment where we were like Xykon.

Deep stuff really.

[Krakes]

Why do I have the feeling that Red Cloak is going to end up seriously regretting not giving Xykon the real phylactery? If Xykon gets taken out too early, won't that be seriously bad news for RC?

[Flame of Anor]

Why do I have the feeling that Red Cloak is going to end up seriously regretting not giving Xykon the real phylactery? If Xykon gets taken out too early, won't that be seriously bad news for RC?

Redcloak's playing the long game. It's very unlikely that anyone will be able to take down Xykon while Redcloak is supporting him, and just about impossible for Redcloak to take him down if he doesn't have the real phylactery.

[Doug Lampert]

I predict the exact opposite. Well, not exact because I have no idea how he feels about humans.

Jirix will turn Gobbotopia into a fairly safe and pretty place to live (at least for goblinoids).

In fact, I get the feeling that once the deal with the Gates is resolved (and The Dark One's Plan is foiled), Redcloack might return to Gobbotopia and find that what the Plan was supposed to achieve was actually being taken care of by Jirix.

And then he'll crush it like he did the TWO previous counterexamples he's encountered?

[WickedWizard17]

LOL take it to the fanfiction sites . . . I'm sure some people already have! Aw, Monster-san, you sweetheart . . . Oh dang. Xykon, y'all certainly learned a thing or two. Unfortunately, Redcloak learned a thing or seven. Poor Jirix. We all know that killing one of those roaches will NOT lead to good things for you.

[Gift Jeraff]

So, assuming the divine spells Xykon wants Redcloak to cast are slots he already used up, and that they don't head to Windy Canyon until they fully replenish their spells, does that mean they'll take 16 hours? And how does that work in regard to the Astral Plane's timelessness? Or am I completely mistaken?

Makes me wonder how much of the Order's two-day trip has passed.

[Morgan Wick]

I actually wonder if Xykon really doesn't know how Tsukiko got her hands on his half of the gate ritual. Raises some interesting questions.

[Ted The Bug]

Ok, the Astral Plane looks /awesome/!

That being said, super tiny nitpick: Redcloak uses 'waiving' instead of 'waving' in the second panel. Then again, you can't hear the difference. :smalltongue:

[Kobold-Bard]

I actually wonder if Xykon really doesn't know how Tsukiko got her hands on his half of the gate ritual. Raises some interesting questions.

Tsukiko told the MitD that Xykon gave it to her to figure out. I know she was delusional, but she had no reason to lie and the Giant had no reason for her to be lying.

[CoffeeIncluded]

LOL take it to the fanfiction sites . . . I'm sure some people already have!

Thus is the legacy of the Thread That Shall Not Be Named, whose legend has far surpassed its brief lifespan.

[SpaceBadger]

LOLs!

Take it to the fanfiction sites!

Theurge for a snack!

SQLLCKQTH!!!!

[t209]

Guys, it's Gobbotopia not Roachotopia. He killed it because it's A) A Roach, 2) A Demon, III) An annoying distraction. There's no sinister foreshadowing of a deeper plot development.

How about ogres, half orcs, and orcs?
P.S- do you think half orc azurites defected to Gobbotopia since Azure City is a homogeneous (Species) racist town.

[Laser_Bard]

Something occurred to me moments ago, regarding Tsukiko's role in this story. She encounters the Order a grand total of two times on screen: back when she's first introduced and is in the same block of prisoners as Belkar, and as an adversary when Haley and Belkar are doing the whole resistance gig. And despite this her presence has informed a small but notable part of the plot.

[Dr.Epic]

Huh? Just for stomping one of the annoying roaches?

Gotta agree with you on Celia, though.

Man, the roaches were the MST3k equivalent in this comic. I love that show.

[Morgan Wick]

Okay, I really didn't mean to post this thrice, but I kept getting server errors. and felt it didn't go through.


Tsukiko told the MitD that Xykon gave it to her to figure out. I know she was delusional, but she had no reason to lie and the Giant had no reason for her to be lying.

No reason to lie that we know of. What if Jirix was right? MitD may be stupid, but that doesn't mean Tsukiko can take a chance with him.

[Subzero008]

Xykon is probably trying to hide that he is suspicious of RC.
And his fortress looks more like a small moon than a castle. I wonder if there would be more Tomb of Horrors references inside.

[Seiryu]

Wow. I think people are blowing the joke WAY out of proportion.

The roach was stepped on because it's a distraction. Now take a closer look at what it was saying before the stomping and try to find the irony....

[hoff]

Didn't redcloak already used his 9th spell slot this day? Gate is a 9th level spell, I wonder if he levelled up again after taking the resistance down.

[daerklocke]

Redcloak: ultimate BADASS!

[Flame of Anor]

Something occurred to me moments ago, regarding Tsukiko's role in this story. She encounters the Order a grand total of two times on screen: back when she's first introduced and is in the same block of prisoners as Belkar, and as an adversary when Haley and Belkar are doing the whole resistance gig. And despite this her presence has informed a small but notable part of the plot.

Well, yeah. How often have the Order met the Snarl, or the Order of the Scribble?


Man, the roaches were the MST3k equivalent in this comic. I love that show.

They still are...he didn't kill all of them. O-Chul killed a roach, and do you hate him?


Didn't redcloak already used his 9th spell slot this day? Gate is a 9th level spell, I wonder if he levelled up again after taking the resistance down.

Implosion was his domain spell. He apparently had gate in his regular spell slot.

[Tom Lehmann]

I agree that some are taking the roach gag a bit too seriously.

First, it's a fine bit of comic humor in itself, as the distraction realizes what it is just a moment too late...

Second, it indicates that Jirix does intend to take firm control of the city now that his two bosses are out of the way.

Third, it's a fine pun on this strip's title, in which both major villainy (the delicate dance of betrayal between Xykon and RC) and minor villainy ("squash") are "afoot".

[Knight.Anon]

Redcloak could have cast Gate with his Cloak Artifact. It may be making levels right along with him.

Xykon may not know whats up, but he knows something up. You dont get to be an epic lich without picking up a few insights on how the game is played.

Now we know why Team Evil is always hiring. Smoke the uppity minions.

I hope Jirix does something stupid like turning the cold war with the elves into a hot war.

[ti'esar]

I agree that some are taking the roach gag a bit too seriously.

First, it's a fine bit of comic humor in itself, as the distraction realizes what it is just a moment too late...

Second, it indicates that Jirix does intend to take firm control of the city now that his two bosses are out of the way.

Third, it's a fine pun on this strip's title, in which both major villainy (the delicate dance of betrayal between Xykon and RC) and minor villainy ("squash") are "afoot".

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not taking it that seriously. I like the roaches, but I'm not going to get worked up about one of their deaths, nor view it as a sign that Jirix will rule over Gobbotopia with an iron fist. But it does seem a little out-of-character for what we've seen of him so far.

[Kish]

Why Jirix killed the roach, specifically? Is it just a way to say "now I am in charge"?

Edit: Nija'd. I still wanna know. :smallwink:
For the same reason I kill roaches when I see them in the kitchen. Vile little pests.

Edit: In fact, my immediate reaction to seeing Jirix do that was, "Eew, man, you just touched a roach with your bare foot!"

[splenetic_bard]

I agree that some are taking the roach gag a bit too seriously.

First, it's a fine bit of comic humor in itself, as the distraction realizes what it is just a moment too late...

Second, it indicates that Jirix does intend to take firm control of the city now that his two bosses are out of the way.

Third, it's a fine pun on this strip's title, in which both major villainy (the delicate dance of betrayal between Xykon and RC) and minor villainy ("squash") are "afoot".

Agree, and I'd add :

Jiryx heard RC about how he got rid of an upitty minion.

Xykon said he "had an occasion to off an uppity minion in [his] day".

Jiryx, now the big bad of the place, offs an uppity minion.

He's learning.

[Red XIV]

Uh, why would the Faux phylactery be magical? If it was created merely be a metalworker there'd be no magic to it. So if someone can point me to an assertion why its magical please do so.:smallconfused:

Edit: Okay, there are forms of magic on the faux phylactery, and the first put on it was "Obsure Greater Object" by Redcloak. However we know Xykon is an Epic level spellcaster, so would he be able to tell if the school or subschool was wrong for phylactery creation?:smallfrown:
Xykon's not the type to be bothered learning what he'd consider trivial details. Plus, Xykon doesn't even remember all the abjurations he put on the real phylactery. Even if it has occurred to him that the real phylactery might be replaced with a fake (which may or may not be the case), I don't know that he'd have any way of telling the difference. If he tries to magically scan it, he'll see that the fake phylactery has protection spells out the wazoo, just like the real one would. And visually it's a perfect reproduction of the original. The surest way to be sure would be to see if it can stand up to the kind of damage that it's supposed to (and even that's not a sure thing, because maybe the protection spells on the fake are just as good as on the real one)...and there's several reasons that's not viable (not remembering exactly how sturdy the phylactery is, the fact that it would waste a lot of time, the fact that repairing or replacing the phylactery after the test would take months, etc).


Perhaps "I've had an occasion to off an uppity minion in my day" isn't so much back story as it is foreshadowing...
Well, there are examples we've already seen, like offing minions for being uppity enough to want actual wages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html).


Jirix squashed that bug as easily as Redcloak squashed Tsukiko and for pretty much the same reason: They where both midly annoying. I like how that was written, it shows how powerful and ruthless Redcloak really is. He is my favorite villan.
No, the reasons were rather different. Redcloak killed Tsukiko when she went from an annoyance to a genuine threat.


No, seriously, WHO has the arcane half of the ritual?

Think of the ramifications! If Cyclops has both halves, he really doesn't even need Xykon anymore! If he found himself another high-level arcane spell-caster, do you think RC would think twice about severing his partnership with Xykon, if only to regrow his eye!
Uh, Redcloak already knows both halves of the ritual. He's the one who wrote down the arcane half for Xykon. And unless he absolutely has to, he's not going to ditch Xykon.


The problem is, what benefit would it be for the IFCC to give control of the Gate to the Dark One?? THEY don't give a **** whether Goblins get a better lot in life, and if it DOES actually break out and kill the Good Gods, a whole mess of the Evil ones will probably die too.
Unless they give the Evil gods prior warning to take a nice vacation to another plane next Tuesday.


How was Redcloak able to cast 'Gate'? It is a 9th level spell, yet I would have thought he'd be out of 9ths from his fight with the resistance?
Doesn't he get two 9ths a day at level 17? He only cast one against the resistance.


Xykon is probably trying to hide that he is suspicious of RC.
And doesn't want to admit he couldn't figure out the ritual on his own.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not taking it that seriously. I like the roaches, but I'm not going to get worked up about one of their deaths, nor view it as a sign that Jirix will rule over Gobbotopia with an iron fist. But it does seem a little out-of-character for what we've seen of him so far.
Except, they're roaches. Most people will stomp a roach (or squash it with some other object) if they see it scurrying on their floor.

[ti'esar]

I'd squish an average roach in a heartbeat, but I'd be a little more hesitant to squish an intelligent talking roach, demonic or not.

[undead hero]

What I really like about MitD is that he isn't sad that Tsukiko died, just that no one actually cares that she died.

His? perception of team evil is changing and he doesn't want it to, however when he comes to grips with reality then things will get interesting.

Using a random monster maker... I created a dire lich succubus (I added Celestial too later on) and realized that would be a great path for Tsukiko... Once in hell (or whatever you want to call it) she becomes a Succubus ... Then lichifies herself...

I think the CR was round 17 when I was done with it hmm...

Anyways...

Why did the Roach have to die? Because Jirix isn't Jirix because he is now a spy sent in after the elven team first reported back to the homeland... Now that the evil little bugger is out of the way he can begin his plans to take back the city/nation. The next strip should be Jirix up with the Dark One again screaming at whatever portal will let him see what's going on....

[Conuly]

I'd squish an average roach in a heartbeat, but I'd be a little more hesitant to squish an intelligent talking roach, demonic or not.

That just makes them more annoying. STOMP 'EM ALL!

Anyway, given that they poof out when killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html), doesn't that imply that death for them isn't the same as it is for us?

[Cranica]

That just makes them more annoying. STOMP 'EM ALL!

Anyway, given that they poof out when killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html), doesn't that imply that death for them isn't the same as it is for us?

I assume they're Outsiders, much like Celia, and just merge back into their planes.

[Zombieboots]

Thank god. I hate those stupid bugs. Sadly- I see that he's not exterminating all of them...

Pretty sure this is the inkling of Xykon suspecting Redcloak- but not confirming.

[snikrept]

Good tactic by Redcloak, to make Xykon either forgive Tsukiko's murder or be forced to admit he knows why she was seeking the whole ritual.

EDIT : also, we seem to have more evidence that MITD can use plane shift, and possibly that MITD suffers from memory loss or some sort of mind-affecting spell

[Forikroder]

i dont get why people say "well there jsut roachs" aside from a few half-hearted attempts by redcloak early on in the comic to kill them noone has at any point (from team evil) killed them in fact theyve started using them for jobs like taking bets and having them tell the MiTD when to pull