Druid Shapeshift Question

[Mauller]

Hey guys,

I'm new and just wanted to ask a question and the search function seems to keep timing out.

I'm now a level 8 druid, Shapeshift variant, and now have access to Predator Form. It says that I gain a primary bite attack and 2 secondary claw attacks. Does this mean that as a full round action I get 3 attacks or am I still only using the 2 attacks that I would normally have as a level 8 druid? Sorry if it's a noobie question. My group is still somewhat new to D&D.

[Ast]

I believe that yes, you do gain all of the attacks, since natural attacks are usually independent from BAB (it's not like the next attacks are with -5 modifier).

But I could be wrong ;)

[NeoSeraphi]

First of all, I'd like to say, "Hell yeah, Shapeshift druids for the win! :smallbiggrin:"

Ahem.

To answer your question, yes. You would receive your primary natural attack (your bite) and two secondary claw attacks as a full round action.

It's important to note that as a standard action, you are only allowed to attack with your bite. (When they say "primary", they mean it).

Other things of note: Your claws only add half of your Strength modifier to their damage rolls, and they take a -5 penalty on their attack rolls. You can lessen the penalty to -2 with the Multiattack feat from the Monster Manual.

Also, congratulations on reaching level 8. Not only did you get a shiny new form, your natural attacks finally got their +2 enhancement bonus! (Which means, with Multiattack, your claws net a +0 on their attack rolls, while your bite is at +2)

[Kobold-Bard]

Remember that natural weapons don't get iteratives from having a BAB above 5, you use each once once.

[Mauller]

Awesome. Thanks for the information. Also, thanks for the clarification regarding the +2 magical bonus. I was only applying those bonuses when it came to creatures with damage reduction.

[NeoSeraphi]

Awesome. Thanks for the information. Also, thanks for the clarification regarding the +2 magical bonus. I was only applying those bonuses when it came to creatures with damage reduction.

Oh, no, not at all! It's like a free greater magic fang! It's just one of the many reasons I like shapeshifter druids more than their Wild Shape counterparts.

You're very welcome for the information. I hope your barkskin is keeping you alive, and your mass lesser vigor is helping your party. :smallsmile: Enjoy the game.

[Urpriest]

While everyone has answered your questions quite ably, you may still want to read the Monster Guide in my sig. Not knowing how natural attacks work indicates that you may have other sources of confusion about monster abilities.

[Mauller]

Thanks Urpriest, I'll do just that.

[Xa0s1980]

I also have one question about ''Druid Shapeshift''
Lets say that we have a 1st level ''Druid Shapeshift'' .
can he transform into a dog or a cat
Or the predator form (ex. panther for a jungle druid) is the only think that he can shape-shift to????

Can he transform into any other animal (exept from panther ) in order to stalk an NPC ???

[eggs]

"Each time you use this ability, you can choose the exact look that your shapeshifted form takes."

So the druid should have some flexibility in what it looks like (like a dog, cat or lizard) each time it shapeshifts, but the druid would still be restricted to predator mammals of its own size.

[Xa0s1980]

So at 1st level i can shape shift to a riding dog (which has medium size like my elf) Do i gain the ''scent '' ability ?
And so on...if i was 5th level and i shift to a ''bat'' do i gain ''blindshense'' ???
Do i gain the ''extraordinary abilities'' the animal i transform has??

I would be glad if someone could tell me the restrictions to the size
transformation??Dose it follow the wild shape?? Lvl 8 large,Lvl 11 tiny and Lvl 15 Huge???

For general purposes dose ''shape-shift'' works like the ''poly-morph'' spell similar to the 'Wild-Shape'' ???

[eggs]

So at 1st level i can shape shift to a riding dog (which has medium size like my elf) Do i gain the ''scent '' ability ?
And so on...if i was 5th level and i shift to a ''bat'' do i gain ''blindshense'' ???
Do i gain the ''extraordinary abilities'' the animal i transform has??
No. You only get what the shapeshift variant explicitly says you get: usually an enhancement bonus to a couple abilities, a natural attack or two, a movement mode and maybe some feats.

Size doesn't change, except when explicitly stated, and it's usually a change relative to your own base size like "up one size category", rather than an absolute like "Large" or "Huge"

It's much less versatile than Wild Shape or other morphing powers.

[Igneel]

No. You only get what the shapeshift variant explicitly says you get: usually an enhancement bonus to a couple abilities, a natural attack or two, a movement mode and maybe some feats.

....

It's much less versatile than Wild Shape or other morphing powers.

Which is sadly some of the reasons why most people prefer the wildshaping version over shapeshifting (along with lack of some shenanigans/prcs entry/etc). What I did with my dm was ask about allowing alternate speeds as long as they don't exceed the speed you'd normally get, and maybe some other nice things.

For example, take the predator form and we get to a aquatic setting. Instead of turning into a panther, we agreed I could turn into a shark for this exercise and instead of gaining a land speed like I normally would I would get a swim at maximum what the form allows despite a normal shark having a higher speed. I was also able to talk him into at least allowing a hold breath ability when in said 'aquatic' form as well.
Then lets say you come to a cliff but you want to help a teammate up. Take the predator form to turn into a riding lizard from Underdak/Drow of Underdark for a climb speed for example.

There was a homebrew thread some time ago that had alternate forms you could get through feats that we also made use of. Being able to turn into a few extra forms like a large sized bird, a swarm of insects, and a few others were totally worth the feats IMHO.

We also ruled I had to make the minimum knowledge check of 10+HD to know about much less morph into but I was okay with that considering the alternative.

Hope you have fun with the shapeshift variant, myself and my group of friends did that's for sure.

[Fouredged Sword]

To regain attacks based on Bab consider taking improved and or supreme unarmed strike. You can make your unarmed strikes based on BaB in addition to your natural attacks.

[Lyndworm]

There was a homebrew thread some time ago that had alternate forms you could get through feats that we also made use of. Being able to turn into a few extra forms like a large sized bird, a swarm of insects, and a few others were totally worth the feats IMHO.
Would you be thinking of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78186)? I happen to be a fan myself. You may also want to take a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199102) for Kobold-Bard's unofficial expansion on the concept.

[chaos_redefined]

I'm seeing a fair bit of love for the shapeshift druid here, so I've gotta ask...

Why is this better than just using appropriate buff spells? Every bonus to strength that it gives is an enhancement bonus, same as the Bite of the X series... The best of each gives comparable bonuses, and using the spells doesn't mean that you give up your animal companion, or the ability to cast while flying.

[eggs]

Why is this better than just using appropriate buff spells?
Something like [Animal Shapes or Shapechange] + Shapeshift has the action economy advantage over [Animal Shapes or Shapechange] + Bite of the WereX, due to Shapeshift's limitless duration and swift casting time, but usually "better" is the opposite of the reason Shapeshift's being used.

[TuggyNE]

but usually "better" is the opposite of the reason Shapeshift's being used.

To expand on this: ordinary Wild Shape is one of the druid's best features, and is a significant part of its Tier 1 ranking. However, many games work better with a lower tier, like 3 or 4, and so Shapeshift fits that better. (A Shapeshift druid is probably still at least T2, but at least it's a bit closer.)

So it's a nerf, but one that is well-deserved, and doesn't really ruin the feel (IMO).

[Fouredged Sword]

Ease of use. Want to turn into a bear? Ok, you are a bear. No book digging, no calculating all your new stats, no time limit, no per day restrictions. Just a swift action and you are good.

Much easier on you and the DM.

I would love to see a gestalt warlock//druid who used shapeshifting and invocation buffing for all day fun.

[The_Snark]

I'm seeing a fair bit of love for the shapeshift druid here, so I've gotta ask...

Why is this better than just using appropriate buff spells?

As other people have indicated, it isn't; the traditional druid is generally considered stronger. However, the shapeshift variant is fun, easy to use, and in general better balanced than Wild Shape. The druid is powerful enough that you'll be fine in all but the most high-op games.

I usually take this when making a druid; my only regret is that it's less flexible. No shifting into a wolf to track someone, or a snake to slip through the bars of a jail cell, or a rat to sneak into a house. I'm a fan of the aforementioned homebrew feats, but even they don't fix the issue completely.

[Igneel]

Would you be thinking of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78186)? I happen to be a fan myself. You may also want to take a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199102) for Kobold-Bard's unofficial expansion on the concept.

That's it exactly! In the game we were playing in I was able to snag the Swarm, Winged destroyer, Child of air, and the Beast forms thanks to the dm houseruled ruling for feat gaining. Absolutely loved the time I turned into a flying treant or triceratops.

Another fun thing is to take reserve feats from Comp. Mage so that while your shapeshifted you can still throw around spell-like abilities such as storm bolt or summon elemntal all day as long as you keep a spell in reserve.