Anti-Scrying Measures?

[Ellrin]

I'm in a pretty low-op campaign right now where even the "good" (significant) NPCs are highly distrustful, manipulative, and at a significantly higher level than the party, and since the main motivational forces around our level 13 party are at a much higher level than us and apparently incredibly scry happy, everybody seems to know what we're doing pretty nearly before we do. My character is getting particularly annoyed by constantly being spied upon (and my DM's excuse of "these people are out of your league" is getting a little tired, as well), so I was wondering if there were any good options open at the moment for throwing him for a bit of a loop. He's kind of down on over-optimization, though will usually be fine with things as long as the rules are fairly straightforward. I don't want to particularly optimize my character (or else I wouldn't be playing a Death Master 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer 7), but is there anything I can do to throw a (not overly aggressive) wrench in his gears, without letting him break out the (again, low-op) "wooOOOoo level 22* dedicated scryer woOOOooOOO!" card?

*I've managed to discover OOC that the most annoying scryer is in the low 20s, but I made the specifics up.

If it helps, he's got leadership with a level 11 straight Archivist in tow (who is often more useful than him!).

[Psyren]

It's no surprise that your Archivist cohort feels more effective - TN is awful, and even more awful without early entry.

Anyway, what domains does your cleric have? Trickery would get you Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) for instance, but again your weak CL is a big problem.

[Radar]

The simpliest solution is the Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) spell. If you have a wizard, who can spare a 5th level slot, you can at least plan thing without anyone eavesdrop. Some spelltouched feats might come in handy giving you means of reaction - Live My Nightmare (you can sick a Phantasmal Killer on anyone scrying you) and Eyes to the Sky (you sense all magical sensors within 40ft). You can also pump up your caster level and try Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm), but it would be hard to beat an epic caster with that.

If you detect a scrying attempt, you can try to learn, who's scrying you or even scry back by doing a flat caster level check (here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm) at the bottom).

[Ernir]

Your level is too low for permanent item-based Mind Blank, without some rather serious WBL-mancy.

The easiest solution is probably to yoink up your Will saves. Get the easy save boosters (like Superior Resistance, from the Spell Compendium), add a Scry Shroud (Magic Item Compendium), and you should get a nontrivial chance of scrying spells failing on you.
Also, stay on obscure planes, don't leave any of your stuff behind, don't leave body parts behind, and don't let people draw pictures of you.

Also remember that the scrying sensor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#scrying) can be detected and dispelled. And if you succeed on your save, you can't be scried upon by that caster again for 24 hours.


It's not likely to fly if the group is as low-powered as you say it is, but some people argue that Wondrous Items can be crafted at caster levels above their minimum without increasing their cost, which would make the Hat of Anonymity (Magic Item Compandium) a viable option.

[Sudain]

Also consider Detect Scrying spell. It won't stop them from viewing; but it will let you be aware/control what information is known.

[Curmudgeon]

If you've got the skills, mundane Hide with Hide in Plain Sight is pretty good. The Scrying sensor would take in your surroundings, but not you. If they can't Spot you, they can't target you.

[Arcane_Secrets]

There's a psionic power that's open source that allows you to electrocute beings that scry on you. Since he's arcane, perhaps you could find a psionic item that does this?

Another option is psychic poison from Book of Vile Darkness that I think does ability damage to beings that attempt to scry on you.

[Saya]

You could always travel around in a lead lined wagon.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You could always travel around in a lead lined wagon.

Or simply pull a Belkar...

[Ernir]

There's a psionic power that's open source that allows you to electrocute beings that scry on you. Since he's arcane, perhaps you could find a psionic item that does this?

Ooo, that reminds me. The Deathglance Locket from the Dragon Compendium does just that.

[Ellrin]

I actually looked at the Deathglance Locket a while back, but figured that might be a bad idea, considering that my DM has a bit of a twitchy rocks fall finger, which is why I'm looking for a relatively non-aggressive solution that won't give him any in-game excuses to make things even more complicated and/or dead. I did manage to get myself a Circlet of Convocation from the same book in the last city we were in.

I've been waiting to use that so far since, in a level, I'll be able to use Word of Recall if things get hairy, but that only works if it's on the same plane... are there other worthwhile contingency plans/preparations? Should I send my archivist, instead?

[Ellrin]

You could always travel around in a lead lined wagon.

...you know, I think I might try that. Is there any possible way for RAW epic scrying to get through lead?

[Gotterdammerung]

the easiest solution I see..

the higher than normal exposure to divination magic has left you with a sixth sense for when you are being watched.

Take the spelltouched feat "eyes to the sky" from unearthed arcana page 93.
the fluff from the feat matches perfectly here.

It will allow you to automatically spot the scrying sensor created by divination spells if it is within 40 feet of you.

Next, inform your party of your new found powers of perception and when you aren't being watched, discuss some pertinent protocols.

#1 a subtle sign to alert the party they are being watched without alerting the scryer. I suggest coming up with several signals because some signals might not work well in some situations. Example, if the signal is to start humming a particular song, that will work fine for most scenarios, but it will be dangerous while you are skulking through a dungeon to start humming out loud. Other possible alerts, take a piece of jewelry off of one hand and put it onto another, pick your nose aggressively, use telepathy to alert.

#2 discuss possible fake scripted actions for the party to do when being scryed upon. The idea being to mislead the scryer with misinformation. Example, "How many days til we reach the rebel base in the Bardan Mountains? I am anxious to join forces with the Rebel King Regalus." "Oh, we got a bit of a walk left yet. Why are you tired? We could stop for a bit if you need a nap." In reality, King Regalus rebel base is no where near the Bardan Mountains and you certainly have not negotiated an alliance with him. The more clever the misinformation the more control you will have over your scryer.

[Pricewashere]

If you're going for long term, and have enough money, make a lead lined house, and for times when you're not in your house, nondetection and permanency (If your DM doesn't think :P ) seems like a good idea.

[Anxe]

I've heard that just being somewhere dark is a good idea. Magical darkness is even better. Your DM might handwave this again by saying the scryer has a crystal ball that can pierce magical darkness. If he does... Well, he's being quite unfair with his railroading.

[bloodtide]

All scrying does is let someone see and hear. And that is easy enough to block.

1.Disguises. While a disguise won't fool the scrying, it can hide others identities. For example, if a group of hooded men meet at a table, you could not tell who each one was. Even more so you can make a fighter look like a mage or such.

2.Darkness and Light. Darkness is a great way to hide what your doing. But plenty of races, spells and effects can see in the dark. So the opposite works even better. Fill the area with bight light that will block out all sight.

3.Loud sounds. A spy and mob classic. You simply have a conversation in a noisy place. Natural things like a waterfall can work great, but even something like a drum would work.

4.Mass Confusion. This is simple enough. Invite ten people to dinner and tell them each something, either the same or different. A crowd can be your friend. It would be hard to tell who is talking to who and about what.

5.Code. Another classic. Just say everything in code. People can listen all they want, but ''Tell the tall man that we will order the cupcake at noon for the party'' won't tell them much. Hand signals and such work too. You can also speak in rare languages. And the best is to send messages in telepathy.

6.The Gambit. The ultimate classic and fun. Let them see and hear all, and plan for that. Once you know that they think your doing plan A, and they go with counter plan A, then you can do plan B or C and counter counter plan A. (Burn Notice on USA is a great example, but there are tons of other examples too)

[Jack_Simth]

I'm fond of combining Detect Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectScrying.htm) with False Vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseVision.htm), myself.

Detect a sensor, and play an illusion of whatever you'd like for it.

[Venger]

death master/cleric/true necromancer? yikes

fortunately, I have something that goes pretty well your overall concept, the evil cleric undead minionmancer dude. on normal characters, it's a little cheesy, but on your character, who's dragging a little powerwise, it'll help bring you up to baseline rather than push you ahead of the group (especially since you got an archivist)

go vecna blooded. enjoy being completely immune to all divination spells forever. no save, no caster level check, no nothing. you even learn the name, appearance, and location of the caster who tried to target you.

hold onto the other abilities of vecna-blooded if they're really cool to you (MMV, p66-67) and you don't mind the LA +1 (given your selected build, you might not) otherwise just bonk yourself with a mallet a few times to burn through your piddly 40 points of DR and lose the LA, but keep the middle finger to divination (it explicitly says your retain this ability after losing the template)

it makes all your hair fall off though, so, if your character's a dwarf or something watch out for his vanity, since you don't grow it back after losing the template.

special bonus, your character's name, deeds, etc. all completely disappear forever once you take the template, so your DM's omnipotent NPCs will forget all the stuff they ever learned about you. forever.

note, the cloak of mystery is (su) so watch out for antimagic fields. (presumably knowledge of you comes back to the world for a few rounds when you're in one? this game is silly sometimes)

[El Dorado]

Rope Trick. Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.

[Anxe]

Scrying does work across planes according to the SRD. It does get you an extra +5 on the Will save though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, since apparently none of the PC's are being given a save, they aren't using Scry. No clue what is being used, other than Plot Says So...

[Venger]

Well, since apparently none of the PC's are being given a save, they aren't using Scry. No clue what is being used, other than Plot Says So...

must be divination effect though, so vecna-blooded still works

[Anxe]

Well, since apparently none of the PC's are being given a save, they aren't using Scry. No clue what is being used, other than Plot Says So...

DM could be rolling in secret. It'd be appropriate to do so. But, yes this looks far more like a railroading situation than an exploited game mechanic (Not that there's a big difference).

[Ellrin]

The DM is rolling the saves himself, and thus far my character is the only one with a high enough Will save to have noticed, and then not all the time. Though honestly, I don't think he has that great a grasp on scrying, himself; he didn't know that lead blocks scrying until I mentioned it to him when my PC was looking for a lead-lined inn room to check in to for the night. I don't know what spells he's been using, either--I've only really started looking into scrying after we noticed we were being spied upon.


death master/cleric/true necromancer? yikes

Haha, I know, right? It fits his character, though. He was originally a crazy Orcus worshipper, nearly got himself killed, and realized he was being a moron. Converted to worshipping a minor neutral death god who didn't care about the Death Master stuff, so he let him keep the powers he already had. He was still fascinated by necromancy and death, though, so he went true necro. I've done some cheese and stuck some homebrew feats that I ran by my DM on him so that he's up to level with the rest of the party, but I'm still kind of regretting the build, even if I like the character well enough. As for Vecna-blooded... that might not work great for him, and I seriously doubt I'd have a chance where we are in our campaign right now to go off and do it, anyway, but it makes sense for my Archivist, who venerates Vecna. I'll see what my DM thinks sometime. Maybe I can even convince him to retcon it in, since it really fits his character.

[Killer Angel]

the main motivational forces around our level 13 party are at a much higher level than us and apparently incredibly scry happy, everybody seems to know what we're doing pretty nearly before we do.

I fear there's nothing you can do. Apparently, the DM decided that the NPCs will know, no matter what you will do... :smallsigh:

[Shalist]

From a similar thread a while back:


Detect scrying (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3133)

False vision (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3186)

Nondetection (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3354)


Obscure object (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3355)

Scry trap (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=6228)
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: See text
You ward a creature against scrying, granting it defenses capable of terribly wounding any would-be scryer. If the subject of this spell comes within 10 feet of a sensor created by a divination (scrying) spell, the scry trap automatically activates. The caster of the scrying spell takes 1d6 points of damage per your caster level (maximum 15d6) and is blinded for 1 minute. A successful Will save halves the damage and negates the blindness; spell resistance also applies against this effect.

In addition, the caster of the scrying spell must succeed on a caster level check (DC 10 + your caster level) or the scrying spell is dispelled immediately (spell resistance does not apply against this effect). The subject of scry trap becomes automatically aware when the spell triggers, although the subject gains no knowledge as to the nature of the scrying spell or its caster.

And shenanigans, such as hiring a party of decoys via mundane disguises, or having an army attack they BBEG while you sneak through the back door to toss the artifact into the fiery pits in his basement, etc etc...

edit: If you want to be dirty, use 'scry trap' on multiple people, their mounts, a bag of rats, etc, just to make sure that you explode the head of anyone trying to take a peek (or dispel their scry attempt, whichever).

[Ellrin]

I fear there's nothing you can do. Apparently, the DM decided that the NPCs will know, no matter what you will do... :smallsigh:

No, he's a reasonable DM, he just gets carried away sometimes. If I can get a mechanical reason to stuff a stick up his nose, he'll hate and love it at the same time.

Seriously, the lead-lined wagon, Vecna-blooded template for my Archivist combined with my Circlet of Convocation (if safe to use), and Eyes to the Sky once I get my next feat sound like great ways to start cobbling together some real defenses against the scrying. A lot of the other suggestions are definitely things I could work with given the right situation, as well. Thanks, guys.

[Wookie-ranger]

You could always travel around in a lead lined wagon.

I love that idea! simple, easy, (relatively) cheap, and even none-magical.

now... to expand on that:
What about a set of lead fullplate armor?
not sure if there is a rule for that but you could make it as heavy as Adamantine, subtract 1 from AC, lower the DEX modifier by one, and increase the ACP by 1. that sounds about fair. (oh, and hope that you don't die from lead poisoning)

alternatively you could invent/research alchemical Lead. it would work just like lead, but have the hardness of steel.
Or, what about Leadsheen (the lead version of silversheen) pretty sure it does not exist in RAW, but you you could always try to research it.

[Curmudgeon]

What about a set of lead fullplate armor?
not sure if there is a rule for that but you could make it as heavy as Adamantine
Adamantine is the same density as steel; it's just harder. Lead is about 50% denser than steel. But steel is a lot harder than lead. Its relative hardness, which is expressed on the Mohs scale of 0 to 10 (diamond) is 4 - 4.5, while that of lead is only 1.5. For comparison, talc (the stuff that makes up body powder) is hardness 1. Lead armor won't protect better than (or maybe even as well as) leather.

[Wookie-ranger]

Adamantine is the same density as steel; it's just harder. Lead is about 50% denser than steel. But steel is a lot harder than lead. Its relative hardness, which is expressed on the Mohs scale of 0 to 10 (diamond) is 4 - 4.5, while that of lead is only 1.5. For comparison, talc (the stuff that makes up body powder) is hardness 1. Lead armor won't protect better than (or maybe even as well as) leather.

hmm, yup, you are completely right. for some reason i thought it also said that adamantine stuff was heavier. my bad. :smallbiggrin:

well, it would still be a suit of armor (even if it would only give protection as leather) that would make you immune to nearly any form of divination. on the downside you would also need to sleep in it; so you would need the enchantment that lets you sleep in your armor without the penalty. no idea what it is called, or where it is from, but i am sure i read it somewhere.

[Venger]

hmm, yup, you are completely right. for some reason i thought it also said that adamantine stuff was heavier. my bad. :smallbiggrin:

well, it would still be a suit of armor (even if it would only give protection as leather) that would make you immune to nearly any form of divination. on the downside you would also need to sleep in it; so you would need the enchantment that lets you sleep in your armor without the penalty. no idea what it is called, or where it is from, but i am sure i read it somewhere.

restful armor crystal, MIC 500gp, sleep in heavy armor. bam. taken care of

[ShneekeyTheLost]

hmm, yup, you are completely right. for some reason i thought it also said that adamantine stuff was heavier. my bad. :smallbiggrin:

well, it would still be a suit of armor (even if it would only give protection as leather) that would make you immune to nearly any form of divination. on the downside you would also need to sleep in it; so you would need the enchantment that lets you sleep in your armor without the penalty. no idea what it is called, or where it is from, but i am sure i read it somewhere.

Just plate lead onto the armor, you don't need much, just a thin coating is all you need to block divination.

[Ellrin]

Okay, not to to disparage this particular train of thought, but wouldn't lead armor (or lead-lined armor) be essentially worthless to keep people from spying on you? I mean, if you didn't want somebody scrying your junk, sure, that'd be great, I guess, but they'd still be able to see what you're doing, hear you, possibly even see your face, assuming your visor is up at the time.

[Radar]

Okay, not to to disparage this particular train of thought, but wouldn't lead armor (or lead-lined armor) be essentially worthless to keep people from spying on you? I mean, if you didn't want somebody scrying your junk, sure, that'd be great, I guess, but they'd still be able to see what you're doing, hear you, possibly even see your face, assuming your visor is up at the time.
In theory, yes. If you choose a helmet completly covering your face, you have additional options: you can have more then one suit of armor stashed and for example send a fake in your place. I guess, you could add the lead lining to a light or medium armor as well, so it should not impade other means of hiding. In D&D tinfoil hats work. :smalltongue:

edit: to clarify, if they can't scry you directly, they have to know, where to look for you.