Daylight Drow?

[Palanan]

For one region of my campaign world, I'm working on an offshoot clan of drow who returned to the surface world generations ago, and who have long since re-adapted to living in sunlight. This happened naturally, rather than through any magical forcing, and I'm trying to design a day-living variant which still bears the mark of their dark sojourn below.

There isn't anything quite like this in the sources I've looked at. Shining South gives a fairly detailed look at the Crinti, which are a ruling caste of mixed human and drow ancestry--but they don't seem to have any unique features, and I assume they fall back on the half-elf stats (such as they are). Races of Faerûn discusses these half-drow in their own section, but there's really not much to them; they still have darkvision and a generally drow-y feel.

In Eberron, the drow seem to be living mainly on the surface in Xen'drik--but their stats look identical to standard Underdark drow, which makes even less sense. Dragon #330 profiles one group of these, the umbragen, which are barely tweaked from the baseline.

So for my purposes, none of these quite fits. I'm interested in more of a transitional form of drow, or post-drow, who have adapted to living in a heavily forested wilderness without any fear of the sun. They won't have mingled with humans, ever, and hardly at all with other elves; they've developed in isolation, and I'm looking for something unique to reflect that.

Losing darkvision and light blindness are the easy choices, and probably some of the spell-like abilities as well--but I'd like to replace these features with something intriguing and unique. Any ideas?



EDIT: The latest working stats are below.

Woodland Drow Racial Traits


+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
Base land speed 30.
Darkvision to 60 ft.
Immunity to sleep spells; +2 racial bonus on Will vs. enchantments.
Spell-Like Abilities: Woodland drow can cast Camouflage once per day; caster level equals class level.
Weapon Proficiency: Woodland drow are automatically proficient with the shortspear, the spear and the shortbow.
Woodland Step: [= Swift Jungler per FMArthur]
+2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
+4 racial bonus on saves vs. poison.
Automatic Languages: Woodland Drow. Their isolation precludes them from automatically knowing the languages of other cultures.
Favored Class: [open to suggestions]
Level adjustment: +1. [???]


So, does this look reasonable? Does everything in there add up to +1 LA? And if not, what should be tweaked to line it up?

[FMArthur]

Don't concern yourself too hard with balancing out any loss of light blindness; I'm pretty sure the item that creatures with that drawback use to nullify it is in the 100-200gp range.

Anyway, a few generations is just not going to be enough to lose Darkvision, which is a major adjustment to how their eyes work from surface elves that they underwent after spending much longer in the underdark. If you want these Drow to keep any throwback to their ordinary habitat, there is no better trait to keep than Darkvision to represent that.

You could try to reflect their oppositional heritage by having their SLAs just be Darkness and Daylight.

[Arbane]

"Elves"?

:smallwink:

[gorfnab]

Daylight Adaptation feat - Players Guide to Faerun
Sundark Goggles - Races of the Dragon
Shaders - Races of Eberron

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by FMArthur
If you want these Drow to keep any throwback to their ordinary habitat, there is no better trait to keep than Darkvision to represent that.

Good points, and good logic. This is certainly tempting, although not the direction I'd been thinking to go.

I think any darkvision would require a corresponding light blindness. I've allowed drow characters to get by with using custom items that are much less than 100 gp (essentially sundark goggles) but for a number of reasons those wouldn't be appropriate for this particular culture, which will be tribal and not skilled with optics. They might have been able to develop custom magic items when they first emerged, to ease the transition, but that would have been long ago and the need for these will have passed.

Also, traits can change relatively quickly if the evolutionary pressures that shaped them are relaxed--and especially if there's a new suite of pressures driving adaptation in another direction. If the key structures had disappeared completely--if drow had become eyeless, like the grimlocks--that would be a different story; but since the drow can easily interbreed with humans, reverting to daysight shouldn't be too difficult.

EDIT: ...Thus, still open to ideas for something uniquely post-drow on these folks.

[Venger]

Daylight Adaptation feat - Players Guide to Faerun
Sundark Goggles - Races of the Dragon
Shaders - Races of Eberron

go for the sundark goggles. never waste a feat on something you could get the same effect for with a 10gp item (despite the absolutely hilarious picture of the drow sunbathing in PGtF)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Venger
never waste a feat...etc.

I agree. In fact, I agree so much I'm thinking they'll lose their light blindness altogether, so they won't need the feat or the goggles.

:smallbiggrin:

The question is what residual magic they might retain from their time belowground, and what other new traits or features they might develop in their new environment.

[Ellrin]

In terms of sheer, sensible fluff, I'd say that if a typical drow from the underdark can have accustomed himself to daylight by the time he reaches first level, an entire tribe of them living on the surface for generations would do it automatically without it even counting as a feat. You could make it sort of like a bris for them--at a certain age, they ritualistically expose a very young child to daylight long enough that he mans the intercourse up.

If the lack of daylight sensitivity bothers you in terms of balance (and as others have mentioned, considering how easy and cheap it is to avoid without really trying, it shouldn't really), you could maybe nerf their darkvision to 60ft, drop the SLAs (or something), and bump them down to a +1 LA.

[Cwymbran-San]

There was a certain drow ranger that came to the surface of Faerun...i won't name him for copyright reasons, but the elders among you will definitely recall him.
He adjusted to sunlight but kept his darkvision, but the only SLA left to him after longer exposure to sun light was darkness. The rest remained the same.
As for the drow of Xen'drik: yes the do live above ground, but have you ever been in a jungle? Even at noon, darkvision would be of use there, with all that brush and leaves and mangroves hanging above your head.

[Ellrin]

The question is what residual magic they might retain from their time belowground, and what other new traits or features they might develop in their new environment.

Well that's really going to depend on the fluff of your world and this tribe in particular. What were the circumstances of their exile? Do they still worship Lolth? Did they manage to piss her off in some way? Are they still pretty much drow (chaotic evil, hate other elves, hate everybody else, appreciate sophistication (even if they've lost most of it), inherently attuned to magic, constant schemers), or have they changed, culturally speaking, quite drastically since they left, beyond simply reverting to tribalism?

If they're tribal and don't have a very good passing-down-lore system in place, they'll likely lose the +2 to Int, since there won't be much of an education system in place. You could balance that by negating the -2 penalty to Con, assuming they're roughing it out in the wild. If you pull that, you might want to give them a favored class other than wizard/cleric; maybe ranger/sorcerer (male) and druid (female), or something like that, would work instead.

Assuming they were originally Greyhawk/Faerun style drow, I imagine the matriarchy would stay relatively intact, regardless of any other cultural differences, unless the reason for splitting involved giving men more rights.

[FMArthur]

I think any darkvision would require a corresponding light blindness. I've allowed drow characters to get by with using custom items that are much less than 100 gp (essentially sundark goggles) but for a number of reasons those wouldn't be appropriate for this particular culture, which will be tribal and not skilled with optics. They might have been able to develop custom magic items when they first emerged, to ease the transition, but that would have been long ago and the need for these will have passed.

Wait, what? Why couldn't they have just evolved away light sensitivity and retained the ability to see in the dark? Tons of creatures have Darkvision without light sensitivity. Like the PHB races dwarves and half-orcs. Tons of surface races have Darkvision, so why would it make sense for these Drow to lose it? They're even forest dwellers.

[Averis Vol]

There was a certain drow ranger that came to the surface of Faerun...i won't name him for copyright reasons, but the elders among you will definitely recall him.
He adjusted to sunlight but kept his darkvision, but the only SLA left to him after longer exposure to sun light was darkness.

technically he never quite fully adapted. though it bothered him slightly less this ranger fealt that it was the price he must pay for his sins and so on.

amazing series, if you have never read it i'd suggest it.

[Cwymbran-San]

technically he never quite fully adapted. though it bothered him slightly less this ranger fealt that it was the price he must pay for his sins and so on.

amazing series, if you have never read it i'd suggest it.

According to FR sourcebooks looking into his stats, i cannot find sunlight adaption nor sunlight blindness neither. I would therefor suggest it does not trouble him.
If he were a PC, i would think he struck a bargain with his DM: loose all SLA apart from darkness and ditch the sunlight allergy :smalltongue:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cwymbran-San
...have you ever been in a jungle?

In fact, yes. I've spent quality time in a variety of tropical forests, and they're a lot brighter than you'd think. Even with full canopy cover there's strong daylight, and direct sunshine often floods down. Darkvision is absolutely unnecessary.

(Also, mangroves are strictly coastal, so not a factor in most tropical forests.)


Originally Posted by FMArthur
Wait, what? ...Tons of surface races have Darkvision, so why would it make sense for these Drow to lose it?

You know, when I wrote the OP I almost didn't mention losing darkvision, because I expected everyone to tell me how incredibly obvious that was. Clearly I'm not an expert on darkvision. :smallfrown:


Originally Posted by Ellrin
If they're tribal and don't have a very good passing-down-lore system in place, they'll likely lose the +2 to Int, since there won't be much of an education system in place. You could balance that by negating the -2 penalty to Con, assuming they're roughing it out in the wild.

This, indeed--I was thinking right along those lines, as well as giving them different favored classes. The matriarchy...will have its echoes and remnants, but more as an antique system of deference than overriding control. They have, indeed, changed rather drastically, at least in terms of culture and outlook.

I'm thinking they'll have lost their spell resistance and most of their SLAs, with maybe a residual ability that allows them to blend into the forest, maybe the equivalent of Camouflage or something faintly shadow-themed. At most, I'd like them at +1 LA.

[Ellrin]

This, indeed--I was thinking right along those lines, as well as giving them different favored classes. The matriarchy...will have its echoes and remnants, but more as an antique system of deference than overriding control. They have, indeed, changed rather drastically, at least in terms of culture and outlook.

How long ago did they split off, anyway? I mean, I can see something like that happening unintentionally, for elves who have stupid-long lives, let's say a couple thousand years after the fact. I mean, it's your call, of course, but realistically, something as ingrained in the drow as "women are awesome, men suck," is gonna take a while to fade, even with their chaotic nature, unless a male rights uprising of some sort occurs.




I'm thinking they'll have lost their spell resistance and most of their SLAs, with maybe a residual ability that allows them to blend into the forest, maybe the equivalent of Camouflage or something faintly shadow-themed. At most, I'd like them at +1 LA.

Assuming you go with the stat adjustments I suggested, that'll give you

+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A drow’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Spell-Like Abilities: Camouflage [?]
Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword.
+2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. A drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin.
Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female).
Level adjustment +[?]

That's really not much better than the base elf. I'm really not an expert with LA, but my gut feeling is that, at best, it's worth a 0.5 LA or so. Definitely more powerful than most 0 LA races at low levels, but I don't know if it's really enough to justify a full +1. Somebody else could probably comment more accurately than me, though.

Oh, and this is probably obvious, but weapon proficiency could change to more appropriate weapons, too, and they'd have likely lost Undercommon and Drow Sign Language from their language list, as well (maybe picked up sylvan, since your tribe seems to be in the forest).

[Keneth]

Depending on how long they stayed above ground, the drow would eventually revert back to elf-like stats.

A LA +0 drow would be something like:

+2 Charisma, -2 Constitution.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon.
Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female).


I don't think there would be any change in social order or general alignment. That wasn't a consequence of living in the dark, if I were to put my finger on it, I'd say it was more or less due to faith and faith likely wouldn't change (Lolth would never allow them to survive).

[Ellrin]

(Lolth would never allow them to survive).

Aren't there scattered enclaves of surface drow who worship Eilistraee in Faerun, not to mention all the drow underground who worship the rest of the drow pantheon (usually in secret, so that Lolth's clerics don't hunt them down and kill them)?

Lolth is chaotic, after all. I don't think she's going to spend a huge amount of effort going after every individual drow, or even small group of them, that doesn't worship her.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ellrin
How long ago did they split off, anyway? ...something as ingrained in the drow as "women are awesome, men suck," is gonna take a while to fade, even with their chaotic nature, unless a male rights uprising of some sort occurs.

According to The Grand History of the Realms, the drow were cursed and driven into caves in exactly -10,000 DR, which is a conveniently round number. Since this is technically in the Realms (just way offshore ;) that gives over 11K years of drow history to work with. I haven't worked out the exact timeline, but this would have been an offshoot group that's had several thousand years to themselves. They'll be living close to the land, which means short generation times. Given that elves reach adulthood at 110, this would mean nearly twenty generations in just over 2000 years.

Twenty generations is a long time, even for elves, when you're living in a radically new world and forced to reinvent your entire culture just to survive. I think there's room enough to work with. Definitely enough time to lose Undercommon and sign language as you've suggested.

Those are good suggestions on the stats...I'm not great at estimating LA, either. Any other abilities that would add another 0.5 LA, if it's necessary? I'm thinking something that might be especially useful in a forest, where the drow would run across more species of living things than they'd remember had ever existed. Something like Detect Poison 1/day would be especially useful trying to adapt to a new suite of foods.

[Keneth]

Aren't there scattered enclaves of surface drow who worship Eilistraee in Faerun Enclaves? I've heard of individual drow but I haven't heard of entire enclaves.


Lolth is chaotic, after all. I don't think she's going to spend a huge amount of effort going after every individual drow, or even small group of them, that doesn't worship her. Lolth is actually ridiculously spiteful and will go to great lengths to destroy drow who would openly forsake her, especially clerics (an odd male might not concern her as much). In fact, as I understand it, she will consistently send her minions after such opposition even if takes decades (or this case centuries) for her to succeed.

[Ellrin]

I'll admit most of my familiarity with the Faerun setting comes from scanning/browsing the 3.0 and 3.5 sourcebooks, so I'm hardly an expert; it's really just the impression I got.

Like you, I'd assume that anybody Lolth felt was worth paying attention to would be similarly worth hunting down, suing for every penny they've got, hung, drawn, quartered, whipped, boiled, and chopped up into little bits until they've had enough; and then jumping on the little bits, and carrying on jumping on them until she got blisters, or until she thought of something even more unpleasant to do.

But at the same time, I get the feeling that the ones below her notice (underprivileged, unremarkable, untalented drow, for the most part) could get by hiding in a forest while she carried on doing that to the more worthwhile offenders until her B-team that she'd sent after them in the meantime got bored of old age and died.

On second thought, that would probably piss her off, wouldn't it? And she certainly wouldn't be above tearing one or two of her own cities apart throwing them at a group of surface drow if she was sufficiently pissed off... okay, no, you're probably right.

[FMArthur]

What's their culture like? Are they still murderers in the dark? Do you want to eliminate their SLAs entirely and replace them with more passive abilities?

Anyway, here's my shot at forest-dwelling drow that have adjusted to their environment:

Woodland Hunter Drow
+2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom
Medium-sized
40ft land speed
60ft Darkvision
+6 bonus on saving throws against poison
Automatic weapon proficiency: shortspear, spear, longspear
Swift Jungler: The movements of these drow are not hindered by any sort of undergrowth, such as bushes or similar blockage unless it has been magically manipulated to impede them. Additionally, they can easily move onto a space up to 5ft above or below where they stand, treating it as if it were continuous flat ground. Whenever they do so, they may also ignore any difficult terrain in that destination space for as long as they choose to stay in it. This counts as Woodland Stride for feat and prestige class qualification.
Level Adjustment: +0

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ellrin
Aren't there scattered enclaves of surface drow who worship Eilistraee in Faerûn...?

Definitely, yes. The FRCS mentions followers of Eilistraee a number of times, including a hidden forest temple somewhere in Harrowdale and the Promenade of Eilistraee in the catacombs below Waterdeep. Faiths and Pantheons mentions that her followers gather in small groups in the forests where other elves would live, and some of the other sourcebooks describe small communities scattered on the surface. I'd say "enclaves" describes them pretty well, and clearly they're protected from retribution. I'm working with a similar idea here.


Originally Posted by FMArthur
*Woodland Hunter Drow*

That...is very cool. The more I think about it, the more I think limited darkvision does make sense. Being able to see at night in a strange forest has definite survival value.

I also like the notion of their retaining some echo of the ancestral SLAs. If we added Camouflage 1/day to this, would that work out to +1 LA? Maybe something else that allows them to move with preternatural silence?

Also, their culture: tightly bound and cohesive, although a tad xenophobic to outsiders. They would have been refugees from mainstream drow culture to begin with, potential followers of Eilistraee who instead went a different path. Coldly neutral towards any strangers, but intensely loyal to each other. It's a brave new world. :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

Definitely, yes. The FRCS mentions followers of Eilistraee a number of times, including a hidden forest temple somewhere in Harrowdale and the Promenade of Eilistraee in the catacombs below Waterdeep. Faiths and Pantheons mentions that her followers gather in small groups in the forests where other elves would live, and some of the other sourcebooks describe small communities scattered on the surface. I'd say "enclaves" describes them pretty well, and clearly they're protected from retribution. I'm working with a similar idea here.



That...is very cool. The more I think about it, the more I think limited darkvision does make sense. Being able to see at night in a strange forest has definite survival value.

I also like the notion of their retaining some echo of the ancestral SLAs. If we added Camouflage 1/day to this, would that work out to +1 LA? Maybe something else that allows them to move with preternatural silence?

Also, their culture: tightly bound and cohesive, although a tad xenophobic to outsiders. They would have been refugees from mainstream drow culture to begin with, potential followers of Eilistraee who instead went a different path. Coldly neutral towards any strangers, but intensely loyal to each other. It's a brave new world. :smalltongue:

Camouflage and Silence, 1/day? I don't think that would be unbalancing. Not worth a Level Adjustment at least. If it seems like too much you could bring the land speed back down to 30ft in exchange.

[Leon]

Throwback to living underground: 30ft Dark Vision & Low Light Vision

[Ravens_cry]

One idea I had was the elves evolved from bats, while dwarves evolved from a wombat like creature.
Hence their eternal enmity, they were originally competing for the same turf.
Oh, and drow are pasty, pale with large blind eyes, like bishonen grimlocks.
If they appear black, it's the body paint they wear on the surface to prevent being burned by the sun.

[Cwymbran-San]

Camouflage and Silence, 1/day? I don't think that would be unbalancing. Not worth a Level Adjustment at least. If it seems like too much you could bring the land speed back down to 30ft in exchange.

Camouflage i would agree with, but silence imho is too much of a gamebreaker, especially at low levels. Fighter moving in, silencing the caster, robbing him of his main asset.
How about spider climb? Fluff-wise logical, and you could rain death from above :smallsmile:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by FMArthur
Camouflage and Silence, 1/day? I don't think that would be unbalancing. Not worth a Level Adjustment at least. If it seems like too much you could bring the land speed back down to 30ft in exchange.

Land speed to 30 would work, since there's a definite tradeoff between crunchy undergrowth and quiet passage.

I might tinker with the stat bonuses a little; I'm thinking +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, on the theory that they've become more thoughtful and intuitive, living in the fullness of the surface world, but also stoic and withdrawn.

For weapon proficiencies, I would drop the longspear in favor of the shortbow, on account of the difficulties in using the former in undergrowth and understory. I might even tinker with something like a blowgun, although I don't know if those are really effective in 3.5. (Masters of the Wild has a sad little thing that might work if you're standing right next to someone; don't know if this has been improved upon.)

And for favored classes, I'm thinking there would still be a strong female tradition of divine magic, although I'm not sure if this would be best expressed as cleric, druid, or perhaps mystic ranger. For males, I like Ellrin's suggestion of ranger (although slightly typecast for surface drow ;) but given that ranger is often considered rather meh, I'd be open to an alternative. (Scout? Martial Rogue? Wild Defender?)

As I see this culture, the wizardly expanse of arcane magic is nonexistent; there simply isn't the cultural infrastructure, no stockpile of lore, and certainly nothing that would lend itself to spell research. The occasional sorcerer or beguiler might appear, more likely some odd manner of bard, but for the most part the traditions would involve druids or clerics, possibly spirit shamans and rarely favored souls. I'm open to other suggestions, though, especially variant classes. Clerics who lose turning in favor of other features would work well here.



Originally Posted by Cwymbran-San
Camouflage i would agree with, but silence imho is too much of a gamebreaker, especially at low levels.

Looking at Silence, I agree it could be a little unbalancing. I was thinking something more focused on the individual drow, something that might give a hefty bonus to Move Silently. Don't know if there's a corresponding spell out there, or if these drow could just activate a 1 min/level bonus as a random SLA.

[Ellrin]

Camouflage and Silence, 1/day? I don't think that would be unbalancing. Not worth a Level Adjustment at least. If it seems like too much you could bring the land speed back down to 30ft in exchange.

Camouflage, silence, 40ft land speed, +2 dex, and especially that swift jungler thing? Sounds like a perfect recipe for a charge monster. Which would be kind of awesome on a drow (the incredibly short black elf screaming unintelligible epithets barrels into you before you can think for MASSIVE DAMAGE), actually.

Pretty balanced, otherwise, I think, though Cwymbran may be right about silence.

[Flickerdart]

Surface Drow would all just wear Sundark Goggles - and thus are a race of black people who wear sunglasses all the time. How cool is that.

[FMArthur]

Yeah that Woodland Hunter Drow statblock was mostly about making them highly mobile jungle rovers rather than continuing to be sneaky, because that's pretty well-trod ground already. Then I didn't think Silence was too bad; I mean whisper gnomes get it and it isn't their main selling point or anything. Is there anything wrong with giving out smaller Hide and Move Silently bonuses instead of Camouflage and Silence?

While I don't normally mind uneven ability score adjustments on LA +0 races, if you retain all these features, more than one gain in ability scores gives it a bit too much an edge, optimization-wise. Especially with Charisma's designation as the penalty attribute being somewhat meaningless anyway.

What if they lost the Dexterity bonus in favor of the Wisdom bonus, and got to key Hide and Move Silently off of Wisdom? Nature-themed classes already trip over themselves to be dependent on the stat, and Survival, Spot and Listen already make it appealing in the wilderness. You don't need to give out extra sneaking bonuses if you do that; they'll have naturally high Hide and Move Silently just for investing in their Wisdom more. That takes out a bunch of birds with one stone.

[Palanan]

Well, I'm happy to nudge it up to +1 LA, if that's what the benefits suggest.

I'm also happy to leave off the Silence SLA, and let their single remaining SLA be the Camouflage ability; that one's more important to my concept of who and what they've become.

As for keying those skills off of Wisdom...well, I'll just admit I'm not all that practiced an optimizer, and would rather not tinker with that for now. I would just as soon give them static bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, maybe +2 and +4 respectively. I'd also back down the bonus on saves vs. poison to +4.

And, I'm back and forth about the -2 Cha penalty, mainly because I'm not sure whether to emphasize the friendly, sociable aspects of Charisma or the "overwhelming force of personality" side. The -2 certainly makes it more difficult for spontaneous spellcasters like sorcerers or favored souls; I'm okay with that for sorcerers, because these folks really aren't much on arcane magic, but I wouldn't want to crimp their options otherwise.

[CheshireCatAW]

Finally catching up to the end, I was going to recommend going +2 DEX, +2 WIS, -2 CHA.

I made some assumptions that I will expand on a little bit.

+2 DEX: The Drow would find that their natural dexterity helps them quite a bit in a Jungle. Acrobatics will save lives if there are enemies around in a jungle environment. It's not something that would likely have gotten phased out due to adaptation to the surface world.

+2 WIS: Living tribally, in the jungle, seems like it would not lend itself well to academic pursuits. It would seem to me that they would adapt to increase their capabilities with WIS instead, as that would lend itself to Heal, Handle Animal, Spot and Listen. Wizards would give way to Druids, as the need to heal and remain offensive increases.

-2 CHA: Getting moved out of an ancestral home and not having contact with anyone other than your own, insular, clan will damage your capabilities of interaction. While being out and alone in the jungle would harden the weak default frame of the Drow

Without paying attention to the rest of the block (I'm afraid I'm rather sick and the wave of energy is leaving me), I would say that it can contend with an LA .5. If it gets rather strong abilities it might tip the scale, but as is, I don't think so.

PS: Drow darkvision goes out to 120ft, if I recall. Consider dropping 60ft of it and giving them low-light vision.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CheshireCatAW
Finally catching up to the end, I was going to recommend going +2 DEX, +2 WIS, -2 CHA.
Your reasoning follows mine pretty well, at least in the broad outlines. I think Ellrin had made some similar comments earlier, which were almost eerily close to what I'd been thinking. :smalltongue:




EDIT: So, as a great swordsman once said, "...there is too much. I will summarize."

Woodland Drow Racial Traits


+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
Base land speed 30.
Darkvision to 60 ft.
Immunity to sleep spells; +2 racial bonus on Will vs. enchantments.
Spell-Like Abilities: Woodland drow can cast Camouflage once per day; caster level equals class level.
Weapon Proficiency: Woodland drow are automatically proficient with the shortspear, the spear and the shortbow.
Woodland Step: [= Swift Jungler per FMArthur]
+2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
+4 racial bonus on saves vs. poison.
Automatic Languages: Woodland Drow. Their isolation precludes them from automatically knowing the languages of other cultures.
Favored Class: [open to suggestions]
Level adjustment: +1. [???]


So, does this look reasonable? Does everything in there add up to +1 LA? And if not, what should be tweaked to line it up?
.
.

[Cwymbran-San]

SOunds good to me. I'd say ranger as preferred class, fits nicely with all the other camo/hit-and-run stuff. You have, essentially, tailored the stats for what i believe the drow of Xen'drik to be :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

You know, some people made a big stink over the fact drow were black skinned evil race. Personally I thought it was silly, but now you have a black skinned evil race that lives in jungles.
Yeah . . .right.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cwymbran-San
Sounds good to me. ...You have, essentially, tailored the stats for what i believe the drow of Xen'drik to be

Thanks. ...Or what they should have been, anyway. The Eberron sourcebooks describe them as essentially surface-living, and all the artwork shows them operating in broad daylight (especially the spread in Dragon 330) and yet, they're identical to standard Underdark drow. Makes no sense.


Originally Posted by Ravens_cry
*comments*

I've described their outlook earlier in the thread, and it's not evil. As for their habitat, it's forested wilderness, but not equatorial and not "jungle," which isn't a precise term. (It originally derived from a Sanskrit word meaning "desert.")

Also, I hadn't mentioned this before, but the woodland drow won't have the same obsidian skin as their Underdark ancestors. This is one trait about the drow that's always annoyed me--cave-living creatures almost always lose their pigmentation--and there's certainly no reason for them to retain it aboveground, so I'm thinking they'll be more of a shadowy-grey-brown hue, something like a beech tree. That would contribute to their natural camouflage.


Originally Posted by Cwymbran-San
I'd say ranger as preferred class, fits nicely with all the other camo/hit-and-run stuff.

True, but scout might work thematically as well. I've never tried running a scout (apart from a low-level NPC who went down quickly) so I don't have a good sense of the class. If they're effective ambush fighters, they'd work perfectly with woodland drow, who like to observe from concealment and strike unseen if necessary.



--Also, credit where credit is due: FMArthur contributed a lot here, and other commenters gave some good nudges as well.
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[DeltaEmil]

Also, I hadn't mentioned this before, but the woodland drow won't have the same obsidian skin as their Underdark ancestors. This is one trait about the drow that's always annoyed me--cave-living creatures almost always lose their pigmentation--and there's certainly no reason for them to retain it aboveground, so I'm thinking they'll be more of a shadowy-grey-brown hue, something like a beech tree. That would contribute to their natural camouflage.In some cases, the drow are obsidian-black skinned, white-haired and red-eyed because the chief elven deity Corellon Laretian cursed them to look like that, so that everybody can recognize a drow on sight.

It would be difficult for them to lose their current look, as it's a magical stigmata by a greater deity, unless Corellon Larethian forgave these renegades who gave up the worship of Lolth (most likely explanation).

Of course, then there's Eberron, where it would be difficult to explain why their skin is black as charcoal, their hair as white as snow and their eyes as red as blood, when there's no elven deity who hates their guts because they're the followers of ye olde Spiderqueen Lolth in the first place.

[Ravens_cry]

So they're "TOTALLY not dark skinned", above ground, forest dwelling drow.
As others have mentioned there is already a race for this: Elves.

[CheshireCatAW]

So they're "TOTALLY not dark skinned", above ground, forest dwelling drow.
As others have mentioned there is already a race for this: Elves.

Wait, which ones? Grey? Sun? Lythari? Star? Wild?

There are a crapton of above-ground elf races that have a unique backstory and capabilities. Are you saying that Drow cannot similarly have multiple offshoots or types, unlike the surface elves who can have many variations? That seems unfair, actually.

Favored class Ranger seems like a great fit. On the topic of their skin color, are you playing in a standardish campaign setting where the skin, hair and eye colors were due to Corellon's curse?

Also, will they have multiple settlements of Woodland Drow or will they all be living in a single, larger enclave?

In either case, you may just want to give them Undercommon as their language. They probably would have kept their language (especially if they continue to trade or explore the undergrounds). Maybe describe them as having a very heavy accent since they have spent so much time away from the larger cities.

EDIT: I actually just remembered. There are a race of "Dark Elves" in the Forgotten Realms that retain their coloration, but lose their Drow traits and are under the protection of Corellon Larethian again. I don't remember where to find them, but you certainly have precedent for large groups of Drow emigrating.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DeltaEmil
It would be difficult for them to lose their current look, as it's a magical [stigma] by a greater deity, unless Corellon Larethian forgave these renegades who gave up the worship of Lolth (most likely explanation).

Pretty much, although this is a strange intersection of magic and genetics. :smalltongue:

According to strict Realmslore, yes, the drow were suddenly afflicted and driven into caves by the curse, which has held for over eleven thousand years. I haven't gone too deeply into the FR-verse (just the 3.0/3.5 sourcebooks) but I gather that even good drow (followers of Eilistraee, etc.) don't automatically lose the obsidian hue.

But I'm thinking these woodland drow will have their own divine patron, who will allow the affliction to be--not reversed, not all at once, but relaxed, so their coloration is once again subject to natural selective pressures. A night-dark silhouette stands out strongly in a forest, so a shadowy-beech-grey would be a strong improvement for tribal hunters.

And, the more I think about it, the more I think scout would make a good favored class for the males. I'm still pondering which of the divine classes would be a better fit for the females, who will retain strong vestiges of the old matriarchal authority. Still open to suggestions on this one.




Originally Posted by CheshireCatAW
...you may just want to give them Undercommon as their language. They probably would have kept their language (especially if they continue to trade or explore the undergrounds). Maybe describe them as having a very heavy accent since they have spent so much time away from the larger cities.

In fact, for the purposes of my campaign, I'm deliberately dropping their Undercommon. They have a strong ancestral memory of the Underdark, and they want nothing to do with it; there won't have been connections for at least two thousand years. Twenty generations in isolation will be enough time for their language to have diverged a long way from its Elven roots. In my campaigns I've always described the drow version of Elven as being strange and archaic anyways, so the woodland drow will have developed a peculiar dialect that is, for all practical purposes, a separate language. Definitely a heavy accent.



EDIT: And I'd be interested in knowing more about those surface-dwelling, CL-protected dark elves, if you can point me towards the source. I checked through the FRCS pretty thoroughly, or I thought I did, but a comprehensive index has never been the strong point of WotC products.
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[CheshireCatAW]

A few moments with Google turned up...

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_elf

It gives you backstory and references "Races of Faerun" and the Campaign setting. Might be a good place to start.

[Ellrin]

I'm still pondering which of the divine classes would be a better fit for the females, who will retain strong vestiges of the old matriarchal authority. Still open to suggestions on this one.

Going off memory alone, of the main divine casting classes (or, at least, the ones offering full casting progression), it really comes down to one question: do they still worship Lolth? I think I remember you mentioning that they didn't, but I'm too tired/lazy to go hunting for that tidbit.

Anyway, if yes, then they're still clerics, as Lolth is really the only one who'd be able to enforce enough order on a small group of tribal drow for there to be an organized clergy. If not, I'd say either Druid or Spirit Shaman. Shugenja are too organized (at least in Oriental Adventures, I don't remember how much they were reflavored in Complete Divine), Favored Souls are too inherently rare by the class's own fluff (not to mention poorly supported by that -2 Cha), and they're still frigging drow, so Healer is out. I suppose you could go Shaman (Oriental Adventures), though I don't remember how the class was adjusted for 3.5 (though you should be able to find the adjustments in Dragon #318, if you're curious).

Druids and Spirit Shamans also fit best insofar as both can easily be fluff-adjusted as tribal spiritual leaders without changing a thing about the classes. OA Shamans always struck me as a little aloof.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CheshireCatAW
*link to Realmslore*

Hmm. Thanks for the link. That seems to cover a whole range of sources, from AD&D to 4E, most of which I haven't seen.

In the 3.0 FRCS, the term "dark elves" appears very rarely, and always as a direct equivalent to the standard drow. I don't see a mention of the redeemed, "retro-original" drow anywhere in there. Looks like that notion was developed in a couple of more recent novels, which take place several years down the timeline from when my campaign begins. For now, I think the woodland drow are on their own.


Originally Posted by Ellrin
*various good suggestions*

Correct, they're definitely not connected with the standard drow pantheon anymore; they just...slipped away, when they had the opportunity, and there's another divine power covering them now. And you make a good point: there won't be enough of them, and they won't be structured enough, to have the kind of hierarchy there would be in, say, the Church of Pelor or the Church of the Silver Flame. So there just won't be enough clerics to justify the class being favored.

There may be a few druids, but they tend to do their own nature thing; I don't see them being active leaders in the wider community. Their divine patron won't be that militant, so favored souls wouldn't have much of a role, and I knew the charisma penalty would work against them.

The OA shamans are...uninspiring, and the 3.5 revision doesn't help much. Spirit shamans fit perfectly with the concept, but they have a strange spell progression that seems a little underpowered. There does seem to be some flexibility, though, so it's an option. Needs some mulling.



Also, I need to work out what the favored class should be for males. I suppose the first question is, given the racial traits, which would work best for them? Scout, ranger, something else? I glanced over the scout class, and--as always seems to happen--the concept is nice but it still seems a little meh. So, something else?

[Ellrin]

Also, I need to work out what the favored class should be for males. I suppose the first question is, given the racial traits, which would work best for them? Scout, ranger, something else? I glanced over the scout class, and--as always seems to happen--the concept is nice but it still seems a little meh. So, something else?

For females: Ugh, I can't believe I forgot Archivists in that list, but they don't make any sense, either.

For males: Personally, I'd prefer something that retains spellcasting of some kind, since Drow have always had an inherent magical affinity, and even back before they became drow, elves have always been associated with magic. With that penalty to Cha, I'd say most spontaneous casting classes don't make sense statistically; and the bonus Wis could suggest that even the men have taken more to divine casting (although Int-based arcane casting is still in, too). Ranger is the class that makes the most obvious sense for the environment and stats, but rangers are kind of meh, so...

Duskblades would be a relatively solid choice. They're fluffed as connected to elven magic traditions, so perhaps the group of drow had been tasked with maintaining and/or discovered old, pre-underdark lore about the class and took the tradition with them when they left. They rely on Int for spellcasting. Hexblade... hexblade would just be a bad idea all around, really. Wizards are pretty well out due to the extensive study they have to do. Divine Bard (Unearthed Arcana) could be an interesting favored class. Bards can be sneaky when they want to be, and divine bards offer Wis-based casting. It looks like they retain all the spells of the arcane variant, plus gain a few others; though it kind of limits your prestige class options, since most bard-flavored PrCs require arcane spellcasting. Wilderness Rogue (UA) is of course a non-spellcasting class, but you may still prefer it to the similarly themed Scout.

Depending on if you want to flavor them as having found some ancient font of lost knowledge, you could give them Binder. It's an inherently magical class (even if there isn't any casting), so it fits with the elven and drow background in that aspect, and there could have been some forgotten lore related to vestiges that helped hide them from the rest of the world.

Alternatively (and this could be for either men or women), if they found an extremely powerful dragon or something who decided to take them under his protection (a CN Crystal Dragon might make the most sense, since those are curious and friendly with strangers and they don't have the good/evil axis pushing any associated group in one direction or another), Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept could make sense. Dragon Shaman will be less negatively affected by the penalty to Cha than Dragonfire Adept, but both could probably be made to work around it.

Going off the Crystal Dragon idea, sort of, you could fluff the group as having picked up a strong psionic tradition (not necessarily related to there being a gem dragon, of course). Ardent makes sense statistically, since they rely on Wis and Int. Lurks might fit a bit better with your desire to make them sneaky, though. Erudites and Psions don't make too much sense, due to the necessary academic study, and Wilders rely on Cha, weakening them for this variant. Divine Minds, Soulknifes, and Psychic Warriors don't really seem to fit the flavor too much to me, but that may just be me. If you decide to go with psionics, it might be a good idea to grant the race a bonus power point.

Another alternative form of magic that would make sense statistically for the class is incarnum. Incarnates are a little militant in flavor, but if most of your Incarnates went Chaotic Neutral, that'd soften it up enough, I think, and they rely on Con and Wis. Soulborns are probably too extreme and zealous to be (a) common or (b) fit with the tribal nature of the race. Totemists would fit pretty well, though they might actually be better for the females (again, as spiritual leaders). If you do go with incarnum, you might want to grant them a racial bonus to essentia.

You could fluff out another direction for them to have gone since gaining independence as finding a connection to the shadow plane, which could go a long way towards hiding them from Lolth (especially if they found a god connected to it or something who took them in), and that could open up Shadowcaster as an interesting favored class for either gender. If memory serves right, that's an Int based class. The main problem is whether you feel comfortable dealing with that much shadow magic in the campaign.

Anyway, that's my way-more-in-depth-than-originally-intended assessment. Whew. Where the heck did the last half hour go?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ellrin
*wall of insightful text*

That only took you half an hour? Dude, you type fast. :smallbiggrin:

Good comments and excellent analysis. It's a little eerie how well you track what I'm thinking with some of this. I'll divide my comments by class, just to make it easier to navigate.

Rangers & Leafy Friends
I've definitely been thinking that the males would develop a deeper connection to the divine, and ranger does sort of jump out at you. Unfortunately, it trips and falls on its face before you can say "Tier 5!" This is why I wondered about scout, although it's only marginally better and has no spellcasting. The wilderness rogue likewise seems a little bland, and again no spellcasting.

There are two variant rangers from Dragon which have some potential here; the first, of course, is the mystic ranger, which just rocks in a lovely way. Unfortunately it's almost <too> good, with too much emphasis on spellcasting, and I don't know if they would be common enough to qualify as a favored class.

The other alternative is the wild defender, from Dragon 324, which loses the favored enemies and combat style in exchange for a taste of spellcasting and a weak mishmash of druid and paladin features. It would actually be excellent for what I have in mind, except the smite evil ability is close to useless, since the woodland drow will be dealing with neutral wildlife far more than anything evil per se. ("Smite ornery predator?" Hm.)

Duskblades
I've definitely thought about duskblades, because they give a solid arcane option without the penalties that a plain sorcerer would face. (For many reasons, of course, wizards are right out.) But duskblades seem much too bound to swordplay, and they would need some sort of martial institution to pass on the intensive training. The woodland drow, as I imagine them, are essentially scattered clans of subsistence hunters; they wouldn't have those sorts of institutions, unless the entire culture was the institution, which is not quite where I was heading. They don't have the metallurgy to produce the necessary weapons, and they don't use the heavier armor that would take best advantage of the Armored Mage feature.

And yet, I really like the class, and a duskblade/druid would make for an interesting arcane hierophant. If there was some way the duskblade could be effective with something like a spear or a shortspear, that would be an intriguing character option.

Dragon Shamans
Another one I thought about, since they wouldn't worry too much about the charisma penalty, and they do fit the strange-wilderness-powers motif. Trouble is, they require the dragon connection, and that would really take this culture in a different direction. (Not to mention my campaign. ;) These are still elves, with a long history and long memories, and I see the woodland drow in particular as very stiff-necked and ornery, much too independent to venerate a local dragon. The occasional, far-wandering individual might stumble into a dragon-shaman tradition, but he would be very much the outsider if he ever brought that home.

Divine Bard
This...is actually a great option, since I'd been thinking these drow would have a powerful oral tradition, and some version of bard would be almost essential in their culture. There's a bit of a drag with the charisma penalty (it potentially limits the bonus spells and save DCs) and yet, the rest of the class fits very nicely. The main issue I would have is the anti-lawful stricture; I think in a community held together by its oral tradition, the keepers of that tradition would almost have to be lawful by default. Fortunately, as the DM, I can discreetly make this go away. :smallwink:

Also, as a further benefit, the divine bard has no trouble qualifying for the Green Whisperer PrC, from Dragon 311. This advances both bard and druid spellcasting, plus bardic music, and has no spellcasting criteria, only some trivial skill requirements. It would be a good choice both mechanically and thematically.

Other Stuff
I'm not as familiar with the other classes you mentioned; I don't have the relevant books, and as with dragon shamans, they might take the culture in a very different direction, at least from what I had in mind.

Also, I've taken another look at the OA shaman, and it's actually stronger than I'd realized at first glance. I don't see it in JaronK's tier system, but I assume it's roughly a Tier 3, which is fine. The one jarring disconnect would be the vaguely monk-like unarmed combat, which is the only feature addressed in the 3.5 update and still not all that useful. I may do away with that altogether, and give the animal companion full progression instead of half the shaman's level.

Getting all sorts of character ideas here. I'll take one of everything. :smalltongue: