Incarnum in PF

[Helldog]

Anything that I should watch out for when porting Incarnum into PF? Besides skills, of course, because that's fairly easy to convert.

[Psyren]

PF has more body slots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Items-on-the-Body) (Head was split into Head and Headband, and Body was split into Body and Armor; they also added a Shield slot, though I'm not sure if that one really counts.) Some of the sacrifice you'd make for binding a soulmeld to a certain chakra will thus be mitigated - for instance, you could wear a Headband of Intellect and still bind a soulmeld to your Crown chakra without needing the Split Chakra feat, or you could similarly bind a Fellmist Robe and wear magic armor at the same time.

I don't think this is a problem per se (classes are generally stronger in PF after all) but it's something to keep in mind. You may even want to shift some of the soulmelds around a bit to fit the new convention; for instance, a "headband-y" soulmeld like Shedu Crown would occupy the Headband slot, while a "helmet-y" soulmeld like Crystal Helm would occupy the Head slot, despite both being Crown chakra under the 3.5 system. Something more nebulous like Soulspark Familiar could be player's choice.

Also, I would personally have all the current Soul chakra items occupy the Body slot, because fluffwise they all seem more like robes/vestments than armor.

Finally, you get a couple more choices as to slots if you decide to homebrew some new binds, or new soulmelds altogether. A good place to start brewing would be some soulmelds for that Shield slot.


EDIT: Here are the 3.5 body slots (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemsOnTheBody) for reference. (11 vs. 14 in PF, as explained above.)

[Helldog]

do you know of any homebrew binds that are worth looking into?

[Psyren]

Person_Man would be the guy to ask for that, especially given his Soulborn fix. I don't spend nearly as much time in the homebrew section as I should, sadly.

*Begins summoning ritual*

[Chronos]

Another issue is that, as I understand it, Pathfinder has tried to move away from classes being "dippable". The Incarnum classes tend to be front-loaded, so that a lot of good builds for them end up involving only one or two levels. If you decide you'd like to change that, the simplest fix would probably be to make essentia capacity depend on class level (possibly stacking between incarnum classes), rather than character level.

[Psyren]

That's not a bug though, it's a feature; Incarnum was designed to be a highly-modular system. There'd be no meaningful choice in allocating your essentia if the soulmelds were weaker for other classes, which is exactly what your proposition would do.

Rather than nerfing the essentia mechanic, I'd buff the meldshaping classes themselves. Accelerate their chakra bind progression (I think Soul should open at 16 for Incarnates/17 for Necrocarnates, rather than 19/20 respectively). Buff their essentia-capacity-increasing mechanics. De-Epic most or all of the epic meldshaping feats, and grant a couple of them to the meldshaping classes as bonus feats at mid-high levels.

In this way, you can reward players that want to be pure meldshapers, without punishing the ones that simply want to grab a couple of key soulmelds (or incarnum feats/items) for their existing characters.

[Person_Man]

I'm not an expert on Pathfinder, but the main issues I can see are:

1) Different Skills. Not too hard to adjust. But it does make a few soulmelds a lot more useful (and/or duplicative with other soulmelds that offer similar Skills that were consolidated). For example, Truthseeker Googles provides a bonus to Search, Sense Motive, Gather Information in 3.5, which in Pathfinder would be covered by Perception (Spot/Listen/Search), Sense Motive (same), and Diplomacy (Diplomacy/Gather Info). This might give also give you a few fairly large Skill bonuses at early levels. Skill bonuses from soulmelds are usually Insight bonuses, but some are Morale or Competence bonuses. Thus it's probably possible to get fairly large bonuses to certain consolidated Pathfinder Skills.

2) A few soulmelds would need their bonuses converted into combat maneuver bonuses and defenses. One or two might be tricky, such as Mauling Gauntlets or Sphinx Claws, which provide Strength check bonuses (ie, which cover a fairly broad range of things in 3.5 such as Trip, Bull Rush, etc, but almost nothing but Skills in Pathfinder).

3) Different body slots, as Psyren describes.

4) You're going to run into some balance issues, depending on what kind of group you play with. At low levels the Totemist and Incarnate are both very potent compared to generic Pathfinder classes. For example, the Totemist can easily get 5ish+ attacks per round at level 2 and Pounce (a rarity in Pathfinder) at level 4. Incarnate 3 can get a constant (and easily replaced) Necrocarnate Zombie, DR 6/magic, and 3d6 retributive fire damage against his enemy every time he's attacked in melee. Tier 1 and 2 Pathfinder classes should easily catch up and/or surpass them. But the difference between a Totemist or Incarnate and a generic Fighter, Barbarian, etc is going to be even bigger then it was in 3.5, because Pathfinder nerfed various Feats that those classes depended on to be useful.

5) Incarnum classes have a few dead-ish levels where they gain nothing but a point of essentia (which tends to heavily encourage a PrC or multi-classing, though that was also true in 3.5). Given the above, that's not really a concern. But it generally doesn't fit into the Pathfinder design philosophy.

6) Some Incarnum feats will be much better then most non-metamagic Pathfinder feats (which were almost all nerfed). For example, the Shape Soulmeld feat (by itself, without essentia or a chakra bind) can grant you at will flight, or Diehard, or 2 claws, or a tail, or 2 wing buffets, or Uncanny Dodge, or immunity to flanking, or at will Detect Magic, or immunity to mental control. With a few points of essentia (which you can get from lots of sources), you get generally get +8 or higher bonus to pretty much any Skill, various opposed checks, Spell Resistance, Energy Resistance, etc. With a second feat spent on the appropriate Open Chakra feat, you can get Evasion, Save or Daze effects, Pounce, Read Thoughts at will, Telepathy at will, the Incorporeal Subtype for meldshaper level rounds per day, and other similar abilities (that generally get better as your hit die get higher). Share Soulmelds will still give you familiar or animal companion all of your soulmeld abilities, and Midnight Augmentation can still be used to great effect with certain psionic powers.

7) If you're considering the Soulborn, I suggest you use a homebrew variant, like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441). If you like Vow of Poverty, you may also want to look at the Forsaker Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172094). If you're looking for generic Incarnum homebrew, the basic mechanic is simple. A soulmeld provides a (2 or 4) + (2 * essentia) Insight or Morale or Competence bonus to a Skill or opposed check(s), or an ability that's basically equivalent to a Feat. A chakra bind closes off a body slot (preventing you from using a magic item for that slot), but provides you with a class ability that basically duplicates a magic item. Higher level chakra binds provide better effects, and have minimum Totemist or Incarnate or HD level requirements. Totemist soulmelds/chakra binds are almost always based off of the abilities of magical beasts. Incarnate soullmelds/chakra binds tend to be defensive or alignment oriented.

If there's any particular concept or question you need help with, just let me know.

[Psyren]

*clears away grimoire and candles*

Yeah, I totally forgot the Strength check/CMB stuff. You'd definitely need to watch out for those. Stuff like Sphinx Claws, Gorgon Mask, Behir Gorgert and Urskan Greaves would need an update for instance.

As regards the Pathfinder design philosophy issue: I'd say another good way to encourage staying in the meldshaping classes is to change the essentia dynamic up a bit. Tweak the various essentia receptacles to use more essentia, but reduce the effect each individual point of essentia has. This would make the primary sources of essentia - i.e. meldshaping classes - more valuable, while weakening sources such as feats, race and items.
In short, make essentia more like psionic power points. At early levels, you can get a comparable amount of PP from your race, class, and feats; at high levels though, the amount of PP you get from your class blows your racial and feat bonuses out of the water, even feats like Psionic Talent that are designed solely to give PP.


Also, I'd say take the time to buff some melds that are pretty weak at the moment. Lucky Dice needs some kind of scaling for instance.

[Demon of Death]

4) Stuff about Totemist

This part is so very true, I had to stop playing my Totemist at 4th level because he was too powerful for the group. "One should be having 2 attacks at most at this level" is what I was told was one of the reasons why I had to stop playing him.

Also, I could kill both party members in one hit.

[Benly]

This part is so very true, I had to stop playing my Totemist at 4th level because he was too powerful for the group. "One should be having 2 attacks at most at this level" is what I was told was one of the reasons why I had to stop playing him.

Also, I could kill both party members in one hit.

Yeah, totemists are kind of in the same boat as ToB classes that way - they're late 3E classes that don't necessarily outperform what older classes can be made to do with optimization, but will greatly outperform non-optimized builds, especially at low levels.

[Novawurmson]

I've used meldshapers against my PF party, but so far none of them are too interested in picking it up for themselves, so I can't give too much help if it's for a player.

Note that Landshark Boots can be brutal against an underoptimized low-level party :smalltongue:

More seriously, meldshapers can do a lot of damage, especially at low levels; be careful if you're not looking to knock off a few players.

Also note that some things that are great in 3.5 (a la the aforementioned at-will Detect Magic) are not as fancy in Pathfinder (it's a Cantrip that can be used at-will anyway).

[Person_Man]

This part is so very true, I had to stop playing my Totemist at 4th level because he was too powerful for the group. "One should be having 2 attacks at most at this level" is what I was told was one of the reasons why I had to stop playing him.

Also, I could kill both party members in one hit.

Yeah, a lot of it depends on your party's relationship with magic and Tier 3 classes like the Binder, Dragonfire Adept, or ToB.

A core 3.5 Druid 5 or Wildshape Ranger 5 can Wildshape into a Deinonychus (60 ft movement, 3 natural attacks plus whatever you get from Feats, Pounce, 19 Str 15 Dex 19 Con, +8 racial bonus to Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival) for 5 hours per day. A 3.5 Wizard with Alter Self into crazier stuff. In a Pathfinder context, the crazy stuff tends not to kick in until a little later, as they nerfed Wildshape and many low level core spells.

But the basic issue is still there. The Totemist or Incarnate are not broken. They're just strong and useful right out of the box without any special tricks. And that's scary to some people.



As regards the Pathfinder design philosophy issue: I'd say another good way to encourage staying in the meldshaping classes is to change the essentia dynamic up a bit. Tweak the various essentia receptacles to use more essentia, but reduce the effect each individual point of essentia has. This would make the primary sources of essentia - i.e. meldshaping classes - more valuable, while weakening sources such as feats, race and items.

I agree, but in my up-posted homebrew attempts to fix this issue, I've struggled with how to handle essentia capacity/pool as it relates to to-hit and damage bonuses provided by some soulmelds.

If you simplify and increase essentia capacity/pool, then would you handle something like Incarnate Weapon or Girillion Arms, which provide an enhancement bonus To-Hit and damage equal to the essentia invested?

[Psyren]

If you simplify and increase essentia capacity/pool, then would you handle something like Incarnate Weapon or Girillion Arms, which provide an enhancement bonus To-Hit and damage equal to the essentia invested?

Dilute the effect - +1 for every 2 essentia invested, for instance. Similar to augmenting a power - the DC tends to increase by 1 per 2 PP invested.

By making such a change, but tying the weightier essentia gains to meldshaper levels (as opposed to race, feats and incarnum items) you weaken the effect that staying outside the meldshaping classes has, while still allowing the non-meldshaping classes to benefit from incarnum.

In addition, for the binary effects (like "Soulmeld A grants Evasion") you can even tweak the requirements to say "if you have at least X essentia invested in Soulmeld A, you gain Evasion." This would still allow non-meldshaping classes to gain these benefits, but they would have to pay through the nose for the privilege.

Using the example above - a non-meldshaper could gain Evasion from Soulmeld A, but only if he (a) burned resources picking up several non-class sources of essentia, including starting from an Incarnum race if necessary, and (b) left any other soulmelds and incarnum features he has depowered to gain that ability, whereas the incarnum class would be able to keep the Evasion active and power other soulmelds and feats besides.

Finally, the incarnum races, like the PF psionic races, could gain essentia instead of HP/SP as a favored class bonus. (At a lower rate if necessary, e.g. 1/2 levels.) This would make, for instance, an Azurin truly better at meldshaping than a Human.

[Novawurmson]

Finally, the incarnum races, like the PF psionic races, could gain essentia instead of HP/SP as a favored class bonus. (At a lower rate if necessary, e.g. 1/2 levels.) This would make, for instance, an Azurin truly better at meldshaping than a Human.

Excellent idea!

[Person_Man]

Excellent advice.

Question: In such a system, would you need chakra binds at all? You could keep the full range of abilities and powers that Incarnum offers, while dramatically cleaning up the messy shaping/binding to chakra/not using certain slots/essentia capacity system.


For example:


Sphinx Claws

Descriptor: None
Classes: Totemist
Chakra: Hands
Saving Throw: None

While Sphinx Claws are shaped, you gain a +1 Competence bonus to all Combat Maneuver Bonus, Combat Maneuver Defense, Climb, Swim, and Strength checks.

Essentia: Every two points of essentia that you invest in your sphinx claws increases the Competence bonus by one.

Threshold: If you invest three or more points of essentia into your sphinx claws, then you may use your sphinx claws as natural weapons which deal 1d8 points of damage. You may hold a weapon or other items in your clawed hands, but you may not use your claws and a held weapon or item with the same hand during the same round. Every two points of essentia you invest in your sphinx claws gives you a +1 enhancement bonus to all attack and damage rolls that you have with the claws.



Essentia Capacity: Your essentia capacity for a soulmeld is equal to your Meldshaper level in the class that provides that soulmeld divided by 2 (minimum 1, maximum of 10).

Meldshaper Level: Your Meldshaper level for any particular soulmeld equal to your class level in the meldshaper class which grants it, plus one half of your hit dice from all other sources. For example, and Incarnate 20 has a meldshaper level of 20 for Incarnate soulmelds, and a meldshaper level of 10 for all other soulmelds. An Incarnate 10/Totemist 10 would have a meldshaper level of 15 (10 + .5*10) in both Incarnate and Totemist soulmelds, and a meldshaper level of 10 for Soulborn soulmelds. An Incarnate 10/Paladin 10 would have a meldshaper level of 15 for Incarnate soulmelds, and a meldshaper level of 10 for all other soulmelds.

[Coidzor]

Do you need to be 6th level before you can bind sphinx claws to get the natural weapons?

[Psyren]

Question: In such a system, would you need chakra binds at all? You could keep the full range of abilities and powers that Incarnum offers, while dramatically cleaning up the messy shaping/binding to chakra/not using certain slots/essentia capacity system.

As a matter of fact, you wouldn't. The Open Chakra feats could instead either grant you an allotment of essentia (possibly with restrictions on its use) or let you treat given soulmelds as having achieved Threshold.

I like that term btw - someone plays Magic it seems :smallbiggrin:


Do you need to be 6th level before you can bind sphinx claws to get the natural weapons?

You need at least 2 levels of Totemist for the chakra (under the current system, that is.) So you can do it as early as Totemist 2.