PF Optimizing a Cavalier

[NeoSeraphi]

So, like I said in my last thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231583), I've got a new IRL game coming up. RNG gave me some brilliant ideas for a nature-based character, but it was sadly rejected by the DM. (He said that since we were all supposed to start the game knowing each other, it wouldn't make much sense for me to be playing a wild half-beast character, and that even if I said I just lived in the city, I probably would have been chased out by now due to my feral appearance)

So, in the interest of giving myself an excuse to leave the house on Sundays, I caved and changed my build. Now I'm going to play a cavalier. I'm so excited because I just realized that Spirited Charge was a level 3 feat (I always thought it had a +6 BAB prereq for some reason)

So I'm playing a human cavalier that belongs to the Order of the Sword. I haven't seen any archetypes that appealed to me yet, so it's just a straight cavalier so far.

The dreaded 15 point buy is really killing me, but hopefully the extra damage from Challenge/Spirited Charge will help make up for my lower Strength score.

I haven't decided on my Teamwork feat yet, nor have I decided whether the human favored bonus for cavaliers (+1/4 banner bonus) is better than the extra hit points/skill points I could get.

I will be spending 3 of my skill points in order to maximize my Ride skill.

I have 500 gp to start with and I'm level 3. My feats are Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack (Human Bonus) and Spirited Charge. I will be wielding a lance and riding a horse. Any other suggestions for how to play a cavalier effectively?

We have 5 party members (including myself) and so far only one has decided what he's playing (fighter). All divine casters save ranger are banned, along with alchemist, rogue, sorcerer and barbarian. The DM has said he will allow a single wizard in our group but has gone out of his way to discourage us from choosing wizard.

[ArcGygas]

So, practically no spellcasting in the group? Yeesh, kinda scary, but whatever. His game, his rules. But that's not why you're here!

A couple of Archetype suggestions; Gendarme (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/cavalier.html#gendarme-%28archetype%29) and Beast Rider (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/cavalier.html#beast-rider-%28archetype%29). The first exchanges out your Teamwork and Cavalier feats for some combat feats (which include the mounted combat feats, as well as Power Attack). The latter lets you ride a Lion at 4th level, and depending on your GM, the Lion gets to pounce on the charge before you Ride-By-Attack (not sure if this is RAW).

If you do take the Beast Rider, take a Camel instead of a horse, for its ridiculous 1d6+6 bite attack.

So, the downside to playing a mounted Cavalier is that your GM can completely screw you by throwing you indoors. Just because you can do 3d8 + 9 (Power Attack) + 9 (Challenge Bonus) + 4.5*StrMod (3 times for Spirited Charge, and another 1.5 for using it two-handed) at your level on a charge with a lance. It only goes up from there.

I might recommend a smaller race (the Gendarme Archetype will still allow you to get Spirited Charge by 3rd level) so that, while mounted, you're only medium size instead of large, and therefore still quite powerful, even indoors. It drops the lance damage from 3d8 to 3d6, but all the modifiers remain the same!

Just my 2 copper, anyways!

[NeoSeraphi]

Hmmm...Gendarme seems nice, but is it worth replacing Tactician? Tactician seems both useful in a good way, and useful in a trap kind of way. Are there any feats I could take that would actually really benefit my entire group if I used them?

Unfortunately Beast Rider is out. I already considered it, but my DM was telling me how if I was a ranger I would have to choose my AC carefully because the town I grew up in wouldn't like it if there was a wolf randomly walking through the streets. I'm not going to try and challenge that. It's pretty clear I have to tread a civilized flavor line, so I'm not going to push it with any savagery.

Small size might work, though the penalty to Strength is less than attractive (I'm really worried about meeting that 13 Str requirement for Power Attack with my low stats, 15 PB is just 3 points above a standard human's array).

And yes, if our DM decides to send us indoors, I might be screwed, but I'd be even worse off if I couldn't get Power Attack...

[ArcGygas]

Your GM seems awfully... limiting. No divine casters, only one wizard. And most of your character ideas shot down.

If he brings out a DMPC, I'd book it.

Back on topic; I had forgotten it was point buy (such an incredibly low buy, too), so most small races are out. Hmm... I guess dump your points into Strength, Con, and maybe Int? 7 points will give you a 15 strength, and if you play a halfling or gnome, the -2 will give you a 13, the bare minimum for Power Attack.

[NeoSeraphi]

Your GM seems awfully... limiting. No divine casters, only one wizard. And most of your character ideas shot down.

If he brings out a DMPC, I'd book it.

The problem is that all gods are gone from the world. Literally, gone. It's part of the plot. So paladins and clerics have no one to worship, no one to draw power from. There will be druids, but they will be NPCs. He has assured us that there is the possibility, if we play right, of the gods returning to the world, which would allow us to multiclass to divine casters (like unlocking them in a video game).



Back on topic; I had forgotten it was point buy (such an incredibly low buy, too), so most small races are out. Hmm... I guess dump your points into Strength, Con, and maybe Int? 7 points will give you a 15 strength, and if you play a halfling or gnome, the -2 will give you a 13, the bare minimum for Power Attack.

Yes, 7 points would give me 13, and I'd have used up half of my points for a +1 bonus. Plus, I'm 2200 gp behind typical starting gold for a 3rd level character. I'd really rather not end up with that.

I'll just have to try and have a back-up plan for when my character doesn't have a mount. With the bonus feats from Gedarme, though, I could potentially have some power on the ground.

[Chained Birds]

I did a point buy with a gnome and got these stats:

Str - 15 (17 - 2 Racial)
Dex - 12
Con - 14 (12 + 2 Racial)
Int - 10
Wis - 10
Cha - 10 (8 + 2 Racial)

This is for a gnome without negative modifiers. So you still got a decent Strength that can become 16 by lvl 4.

[NeoSeraphi]

I did a point buy with a gnome and got these stats:

Str - 15 (17 - 2 Racial)
Dex - 12
Con - 14 (12 + 2 Racial)
Int - 10
Wis - 10
Cha - 10 (8 + 2 Racial)

This is for a gnome without negative modifiers. So you still got a decent Strength that can become 16 by lvl 4.

That's 25 PB. I have 15. :smallyuk:

Edit: Oh, wait, PF has its own PB system. Well, now I'm less worried about the DM's sanity. Let's see here...

I guess...your suggested scores work the best in this system...Meh. A +2 bonus in my best score seems way too low...

Geez, I dunno. What do I get for this? I net a penalty to my main score and I lose a bonus feat and skill points for the ability to ride my mount underground when I don't even know what the setting is going to be like. Plus, when I'm not riding my mount, I'm just plain awful at combat.

Seems like I'd rather play a medium character. Yes, I don't get to ride my horse in as many places, but when I'm on foot, I have better damage rolls anyway.

[NeoSeraphi]

Argh, screw this. Low stats in a game with no healing and a potential waste of my entire build based on the setting? I'll play the stupid wizard before I go through all that.

[Krazzman]

Wait God's don't exist? Jeah, there stay the Paladins and Clerics of CAUSE.

These fighters for the holy or unholy stopped believing in gods, they even stopped believing in themselves. They believe in you, believing in them!
They are...
the Gurrenn Brigade!

Probably the best thing you could do is being a Zen-Archer Monk. You'll be SAD.
18 Wis, 14 con, 13 dex (not sure if correct) -> works completely fine.
Synthesist Summoner could be another good class but...this doesn't help you solve your problem...

[Cieyrin]

It's not that the gods don't exist, since it sounds like you're playing during either the War of the Lance or in the 5th Age, it's just during the first period that the gods are just returning to the world. During the 5th Age, due to the War against Chaos (read: Overdeity and father to all of Krynn's gods) making the gods leave Krynn for good, other magics have to be sought out. So the lack of divine casters makes plenty of sense, though why there's restrictions against Wizards is something I don't understand, due to the Towers of High Sorcery still standing even into the 5th Age, though many of them were lost or corrupted and yet still turning out wizards that manage to pass their test and joining the appropriate order. That's just standard Dragonlance background, though, not any different than Faerun and the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague (however much I strongly dislike the Spellplague).

Anyways, I'd like to point out that you could choose a camel over a horse as a Medium cavalier, as a vanilla cavalier, no Beast Rider required. The camel outpaces the horse easily, except where it comes to natural armor, and it comes wartrained, unlike the horse, meaning normal horse companions get scared in combat, so that's something to avoid, definitely.

Another archetype to consider is the Emissary, who gets a number of bonus feats as well, including Mounted Combat at 1st, so you can pick up Power Attack along side Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge.

[Asaris]

I believe the cavalier's horse comes wartrained. Yep, here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier#TOC-Mount-Ex-)it is:

"A Cavalier's mount is always considered combat trained."

[Cieyrin]

I believe the cavalier's horse comes wartrained. Yep, here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier#TOC-Mount-Ex-)it is:

"A Cavalier's mount is always considered combat trained."

Huh, the more you know...

Guess Druid horses just suck, then.

[Chained Birds]

That's 25 PB. I have 15. :smallyuk:

Edit: Oh, wait, PF has its own PB system. Well, now I'm less worried about the DM's sanity. Let's see here...

I guess...your suggested scores work the best in this system...Meh. A +2 bonus in my best score seems way too low...

Geez, I dunno. What do I get for this? I net a penalty to my main score and I lose a bonus feat and skill points for the ability to ride my mount underground when I don't even know what the setting is going to be like. Plus, when I'm not riding my mount, I'm just plain awful at combat.

Seems like I'd rather play a medium character. Yes, I don't get to ride my horse in as many places, but when I'm on foot, I have better damage rolls anyway.

Huh? I used a Point Buy Calculator. And double checked.
15 Points
13 points go into STR
2 points go into DEX
2 points go into CON
-2 points from CHA

You do know that PF starts your stats as all 10s instead of all 8s?:smallconfused:

[NeoSeraphi]

Huh? I used a Point Buy Calculator. And double checked.
15 Points
13 points go into STR
2 points go into DEX
2 points go into CON
-2 points from CHA

You do know that PF starts your stats as all 10s instead of all 8s?:smallconfused:

Yeah, that was why I put that edit in there. I didn't know previously.