Dirgesinger Prereqs

[Mari01]

I'm a bit confused. In Libris Mortis, the sample Dirgesinger has five levels of Bard and two levels of Dirgesinger. By my math, that can't be. The prereqs for Requiem are Know(religion) 4 and Perfrom(any) 8 ranks. How is the sample character qualifying at level 5, and then taking the class next level BEFORE getting the actual feat?

[Hirax]

Prestige class sample characters regularly don't work, there are plenty of other examples. There are ways to finagle entry at 6th level, but the example given doesn't utilize them.

[Otomodachi]

They do this a lot. Sample characters lie. See: Abjurant Champion.

[Tyger]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the order of leveling up states that you apply your new skill points first, then take your feats. So a level 5 bard could have both Perform 8, and Requiem, which would make the PrC a valid choice.

Or am I misremembering the order of leveling?

[Hirax]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the order of leveling up states that you apply your new skill points first, then take your feats. So a level 5 bard could have both Perform 8, and Requiem, which would make the PrC a valid choice.

Or am I misremembering the order of leveling?

No, because you can't normally pick up the feat until level 6. Requiem has the 8 rank requirement, which means it can't be taken at level 3, and you need it at level 5 to enter dirgesinger at 6.

[Tyger]

No, because you can't normally pick up the feat until level 6. Requiem has the 8 rank requirement, which means it can't be taken at level 3, and you need it at level 5 to enter dirgesinger at 6.

But if skill points are applied first (and based on the PHB that is the way to do it) then you can and do qualify for Requiem at level 5.

EDIT: D'oh! You don't get a feat at level 5... reading comprehension fail on my part - missed what you were trying to say there. My bad.

[Venger]

They do this a lot. Sample characters lie. See: Abjurant Champion.

while you are indeed correct with sample characters not qualifying for the prestige classes they enter quite often(green star adept,anyone?) the sample abjurant champion does indeed qualify with fighter 4/ sorc 2 (terrible choice, but that's besides the point) he's got +5 BA at this level, he's got combat casting listed in his feats, he's got mage armour as a 1st lvl known spell of the abjuration school, and he's proficient with 1 or more martial weapons. Where's the problem?

[Urpriest]

while you are indeed correct with sample characters not qualifying for the prestige classes they enter quite often(green star adept,anyone?) the sample abjurant champion does indeed qualify with fighter 4/ sorc 2 (terrible choice, but that's besides the point) he's got +5 BA at this level, he's got combat casting listed in his feats, he's got mage armour as a 1st lvl known spell of the abjuration school, and he's proficient with 1 or more martial weapons. Where's the problem?

Mage Armor has never been abjuration.

[gorfnab]

he's got mage armour as a 1st lvl known spell of the abjuration school
Mage Armor is Conjuration.

From the Complete Mage Errata


Page 51 – Abjurant Champion
Class Features [Deletion]
Under the abjurant armor ability,
remove mention of “mage armor” at
the end of the paragraph. The abjurant
armor ability does not affect mage
armor, but the spell is still useful to an
abjurant champion.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Yeah, but the sample Abjurant Champion also has Karmic Aura as a 1st level spell, and that's an abjuration. So why isn't the build legal?

[kulosle]

I thought that the order in which you get things from leveling up was ambiguous and always benefited the player. So at level 6 he takes requiem and then takes the PrC. Or am I doing this wrong?

[gorfnab]

I thought that the order in which you get things from leveling up was ambiguous and always benefited the player. So at level 6 he takes requiem and then takes the PrC. Or am I doing this wrong?

From the SRD:


Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

The DMG has a longer explanation of this on page 176.

[kulosle]

Ah thank you for clearing that up.

[Mari01]

Well now that that has been settled any tips for an aspiring Dirgesinger? I've decided I want to do a debuff route using Inspire Awe as a base but that whole sample character thing threw my plans into a wreck. I'd like to take all levels of the class, but I dont know what to focus on. Spells are a no since a 5 CL loss is huge. Inspire Courage is being swapped out. What else is there?

[Cwymbran-San]

If you used the character retraining options from PHB II, you could (upon reaching 5th level), drop your feat you picked up at 3rd level (retraining happens before the assignment of skillpoints), pick up the needed feat instead and be done with it.

[Coidzor]

Well now that that has been settled any tips for an aspiring Dirgesinger? I've decided I want to do a debuff route using Inspire Awe as a base but that whole sample character thing threw my plans into a wreck. I'd like to take all levels of the class, but I dont know what to focus on. Spells are a no since a 5 CL loss is huge. Inspire Courage is being swapped out. What else is there?

The best Dirgesinger advice I could give would be to not take levels in Dirgesinger and to instead take the feats Requiem and Haunting Melody on a more standard Bard Build that instead dips into Lyric Thaumaturge and grabs Animate Dead, goes into Sublime Chord and picks up Animate Dead that way, or takes Arcane Disciple to grab Animate Dead from a domain. At least, is necromancy inclined bard is your angle on this.

There's not really a whole lot to Dirgesingers that has a whole lot of appeal. Their capstone ability is basically a finite duration version of Animate Dread Warrior, and the rest of their stuff is only tangentially necromantic and never really jumped out at me for fear builds either.

Haunting Melody is generally better than Inspire Awe because you get to use fear on your enemies while making your allies hit harder. And it combines well with other sources of fear, such as a fear-based barbarian or samurai using the Imperious Command (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=2) feat and the Never Outnumbered (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5) skilltrick.

If you really want to be a fear-based debuffing build... Have you read the fear handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0)? I believe there's also a Black Tactica touching upon fear as well.

[SPoilaaja]

bard / crusader(or warblade) can perform inspire courage as a swift action and use standard action to perform a dirgesong.

[Flickerdart]

If you used the character retraining options from PHB II, you could (upon reaching 5th level), drop your feat you picked up at 3rd level (retraining happens before the assignment of skillpoints), pick up the needed feat instead and be done with it.
I thought you could only retrain into feats that you could actually take at the time.

[Venger]

Well now that that has been settled any tips for an aspiring Dirgesinger? I've decided I want to do a debuff route using Inspire Awe as a base but that whole sample character thing threw my plans into a wreck. I'd like to take all levels of the class, but I dont know what to focus on. Spells are a no since a 5 CL loss is huge. Inspire Courage is being swapped out. What else is there?

one word: doomspeak. you need 8 ranks in intimidate one way or the other (dip mindbender?) but it's amazing to give an opponent -10 to everything


I thought you could only retrain into feats that you could actually take at the time.

you can. you have to have qualified for the feat you want to retrain it into at the time that you're switching the feat out.


Mage Armor has never been abjuration.


Abjurations are protective spells. They create physical or magical barriers


An invisible but tangible field of force
surrounds the subject

and yet, mage armor is not abjuration. my mistake, thanks for the correction.


Yeah, but the sample Abjurant Champion also has Karmic Aura as a 1st level spell, and that's an abjuration. So why isn't the build legal?

this is true, I'm reasonably certain that as unoptimised as the sample character is, he's rules-legal