The Best Summoning List(s) [3.5]

[kulosle]

So I'm trying to make a summoner than can with the absolute best summons possible. So this bring to mind 3 questions: 1) Which summon list is better monster or natures ally, or should I just get both? 2) What are the best monsters to add to the lists (I''m assuming most of them will be monsters that have caster levels, like nymphs)? 3) What ways can I add useful monsters to my list? I found the Fiendish Summoning Specialist it says


Normal: Without this feat, adding a creature to your summoning list requires you to remove one that is already on the list.

Where does it say that you can do this to begin with?

[Lonely Tylenol]

So I'm trying to make a summoner than can with the absolute best summons possible. So this bring to mind 3 questions: 1) Which summon list is better monster or natures ally, or should I just get both?

Monster. Nature's Ally is pretty limited in scope, with most of your summons fulfilling either the beatstick role (these are your elephants, bears, lions, and such) or some out-of-combat utility (these are your owls, eagles, and more or less everything else).


2) What are the best monsters to add to the lists (I''m assuming most of them will be monsters that have caster levels, like nymphs)?

The short answer is yes.

The general rule to follow in this regard is to look for fey and outsiders (of the good and evil varieties) wherever possible. The Fiendish Codex I and II are good, for starters.


3) What ways can I add useful monsters to my list? I found the Fiendish Summoning Specialist it says



Where does it say that you can do this to begin with?

I don't have the answer to this on hand, but I distinctly recall one of the Tanar'ri descriptions mentioning that you could summon it with Summon Monster if you replaced the equivalent-level demon with it. I can't remember what was replacing what, though. Can anybody help me out here?

[Con_Brio1993]

Summon Nature's Ally seems to be best at lower levels, but at higher levels Summon Monster gets creatures with very nice SLAs.

[deuxhero]

One good thing about SNA4 is the Unicorn gives more healing that a fourth level spell slot naturally does.

[kulosle]

Is the summon undead line worth anything. I don't see anything worth it, but I might be missing something.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It depends entirely on what you're adding onto those summons. Here's a pretty good breakdown:

All Summons: Augment Summoning, Rashemi Elemental Summoning (UE), Invisible Spell (Cityscape), add Storm Elementals (MM3). Possibly include Imbued Summoning (PH2) depending on your spell list.

Summon Monster: Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants), Master Specialist 4/7/10.

Summon Nature's Ally: Ring of the Beast (CC), Ashbound (ECS), Greenbound Summoning (LEoF).

The Ring of the Beast alone makes SNA better than SM. Even one of the two setting-specific feats exclusive to SNA just puts SM to shame. SNA already gets elementals a full spell level earlier, the ring moves this up yet another spell level, so at SNA V you can get a Huge Earth Elemental, or at SNA VI a Huge Storm Elemental.

[NeoSeraphi]

The absolute best summoner is a Moonspeaker (It's a racial druid prestige class from Races of Eberron)

You get a lot of powerful creatures added to your SNA list, including nymphs. So for a 7th level druid spell, you summon a 7th level druid with all those juicy 4th and lower level spells prepared.

Additionally, a 20th level moonspeaker gets gate. So you have an expanded SNA list, and gate. Very awesome. Progresses your Wild Shape as well, at a -4 druid level penalty. Lots of other sweet bonuses. Full casting advancement.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is the summon undead line worth anything. I don't see anything worth it, but I might be missing something.

In the low to mid levels, it makes some good meat shields. Owlbear Skeletons, Troll Skeletons, and Ogre Zombies are probably your best choices. Note that summoning from a lower level list gives you a set number of creatures, rather than a random roll.

There's a +1 metamagic feat called Song of the Dead from Dragon 312 that turns any spell into a Necromancy, so Conjuration-specific feats no longer apply but Necromancy-specific benefits such as the Corpsecrafter line of feats, Dread Necromancer abilities, Desecrate, etc. will work with them. Corpsecrafter + Destruction Retribution + Song of the Dead + either a Slaymate (LM) or maybe Metamagic School Focus (CM) is an extremely potent combo.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Is the summon undead line worth anything. I don't see anything worth it, but I might be missing something.

That depends. Are we using the Summon Undead line from the Spell Compendium (which has a small and very specific list, including "Kobold Zombie" and "Human Warrior Skeleton" for Summon Undead I), or the Summon Undead line from Libris Mortis (which has a more general list, such as "Medium Skeleton" and "Small Zombie")? Obviously, a lot more can be done with the Libris Mortis version. Shadows are good for utility, and are difficult for low-level creatures to hit, although by level 9 this becomes less of a concern (the Shadowcalypse simply doesn't happen in most games at that level). Wights are Wights.


The absolute best summoner is a Moonspeaker (It's a racial druid prestige class from Races of Eberron)

You get a lot of powerful creatures added to your SNA list, including nymphs. So for a 7th level druid spell, you summon a 7th level druid with all those juicy 4th and lower level spells prepared.

Additionally, a 20th level moonspeaker gets gate. So you have an expanded SNA list, and gate. Very awesome. Progresses your Wild Shape as well, at a -4 druid level penalty. Lots of other sweet bonuses. Full casting advancement.

And if you go the arcane route, Malconvoker is a popular choice for a reason; getting an extra summon off every Summon Monster spell for free helps a lot when you want to break out the big guns and break action economy. Also, if I recall, gets STR and CON bonuses that stack with Augment Summoning.

[Benly]

Where does it say that you can do this to begin with?

There are a number of individual monster listings that say that you can replace another specific entry with that creature. The summonable monsters in Fiendish Codex II, Planar Handbook, and Stormwrack all follow this model, as does the Arrow Demon from MM3. For example, Fiendish Dire Eels (from Stormwrack) can be summoned with SMIV, but replace the Fiendish Dire Wolf on the SMIV list. As I recall, you have to make this decision when you first learn the appropriate spell, but I'm not sure.

There is, however, a way to get all of these normally mutually-exclusive creatures summonable. A binder with the vestige Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) bound can summon a pseudonatural version of any creature that a sorcerer of her level could summon. An eighth-level sorcerer could summon a Fiendish Dire Eel, and an eighth-level sorcerer could summon a Fiendish Dire Wolf, so Zceryll has access to both even though they could not be summoned by the same sorcerer. She does not, however, grant access to cleric-only summons (of which there are only two) or summons which aren't legal targets for the pseudonatural template (only energons and creatures with the vivacious template, since pseudonatural only affects corporeal creatures).

This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6471.0) has a pretty good rundown of what's available through Summon Monster. (I remember contributing to it on the WotC charop boards back in the day... ah, nostalgia.)

[Psyren]

Is the summon undead line worth anything. I don't see anything worth it, but I might be missing something.

SUIV: Summon Allips, kill Tarrasque, laugh at DM.

BoED has some very nice good-aligned summons too. Coure Eladrin are very handy for instance.

[Gwendol]

SUIV: Summon Allips, kill Tarrasque, laugh at DM.

BoED has some very nice good-aligned summons too. Coure Eladrin are very handy for instance.

Guardinals also. They're great allies, especially for a cleric since they add typically some arcane SLA punch to the team.

[Conkea]

Don't have the time to fully check this for you, but iirc treantmonk's guide for the malconvoker went over summoning in general as well, in a pretty detailed fashion. So I'd advise you to look that guide up.

[kulosle]

There is, however, a way to get all of these normally mutually-exclusive creatures summonable. A binder with the vestige Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) bound can summon a pseudonatural version of any creature that a sorcerer of her level could summon. An eighth-level sorcerer could summon a Fiendish Dire Eel, and an eighth-level sorcerer could summon a Fiendish Dire Wolf, so Zceryll has access to both even though they could not be summoned by the same sorcerer. She does not, however, grant access to cleric-only summons (of which there are only two) or summons which aren't legal targets for the pseudonatural template (only energons and creatures with the vivacious template, since pseudonatural only affects corporeal creatures).

This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6471.0) has a pretty good rundown of what's available through Summon Monster. (I remember contributing to it on the WotC charop boards back in the day... ah, nostalgia.)

So the binder, i'm not too familiar with them. I know they have very little support. They are exclusively from ToM and web enhancements. Do they actually make good summoners?

Yes that link is exactly what I was looking for. Now to go book diving to form my preferred summoners list.

So how would someone go about making a bard summoner? It seems that a bard would be ideal in bringing your summons up to par and I like the idea. The IC optimization is obvious, three levels in Incantrix can persist the effect all day so I really only need 1 or 2 uses a day (depending if i go DFI), but this cuts into my already feat starved build. Any thoughts?

[DarkEternal]

I'm playing a Malconvoker currently and it's a lot of fun, though it involves a lot of book keeping. So far I have all monsters for summoning that I could find from various sources in a word document, with added bonuses from Imbued summoning(will have to repair that the moment I get to the Malconvoker level that gets you even more STR and CON).

Though really, some of the summons are really awesome, but some are crappy to say at the very least. If I remember, Apes are pretty great and then you have awful ones like some crabs or something.

So far the absolute best I have seen from Summon Monster IV is a Voor(it gets like 6 attacks on a full attack + rend +a whole load of resistances and special abilities) and an Arcadian Avenger since it flies and has good attacks as well.

[Benly]

So the binder, i'm not too familiar with them. I know they have very little support. They are exclusively from ToM and web enhancements. Do they actually make good summoners?

They make good summoners, sort of.

They don't get any access to summoning in the Summon Monster sense until mid-to-high levels, when they get access to Zceryll. Before that, I believe there's one vestige that lets you summon earth elementals and that's about the size of it. Once you have Zceryll, your binder can essentially cast Summon Monster once every five rounds an unlimited number of times per day (once per four rounds with the right feats). Zceryll can only summon one monster at a time, so you won't be flooding the field unless you take the slightly silly tactic of summoning a monster every few rounds while walking around the dungeon so that their summon durations overlap and they're hanging around when the fight starts. However, you get a wide variety of other benefits you can throw around, and because there's no use-per-day limitation you can make unlimited out-of-combat use of things like an ice demon's Wall Of Ice or anything with a healing ability. It's a very different sort of summoner, and powerful in its own right, but not the standard sort of "come forth, my horde of minions!" summoner.


So how would someone go about making a bard summoner? It seems that a bard would be ideal in bringing your summons up to par and I like the idea. The IC optimization is obvious, three levels in Incantrix can persist the effect all day so I really only need 1 or 2 uses a day (depending if i go DFI), but this cuts into my already feat starved build. Any thoughts?

Incantatrix can't persist Inspire Courage because it's not a spell, it's a supernatural ability. The obvious problem with a bard summoner is that, while you're buffing up your minions nicely, the weaker caster progression means that a bard is summoning weaker minions in the first place, frequently in ways that Inspire Courage doesn't really make up for. Sublime Chord can address that, as it addresses many things, and frankly a bard/Sublime Chord with Inspire Courage optimization is going to do just fine whether or not she's summoning monsters as well, but you're going to feel more like a bard than a summoner, especially in the mid-levels when your casting is falling behind and you haven't got Sublime Chord yet.

[kulosle]

I'm just going by what this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830) said. I can't seem to find my copy of PGtF but I'll check it when I do. What about just taking heartfire fanner on a wizard. Then going into Malconvoker?