Does the fighter need fixing?

[Knifie_Sp00nie]

I've seen a lot about the fighter being underpowered. Is it true? I haven't seen a straight figter in a 3.0/3.5 game yet, so I have no first-hand experience, but I might play one next game.

I've seen reasoning that they are fine, just the power curve favors the fighter in the early levels and then tapers off. Some say that they can max out a feat tree and are then stuck with little effective selection. Is this just an issue for people that play with the core books only? I tend to play with core and the complete books. Like the sorcerer thread, I'm looking at the class as a level 1-20 progression instead of jumping to a PrC.

Is it just a matter of giving more feats? Maybe a bonus feat every level except those divisible by three? That would yeild 14 instead of 11 at level 20 (not including the regular feat at every 3rd level). Would that make it too juicy for dippers and munchkins, or is it neccessary at all?

[Dhavaer]

Fighter's don't need more feat slots, they need more powerful feats. The issue with fighters is that the ability they gain at level 20 (a feat) isn't much more powerful than what they gain at level 1 (a feat) whereas everyother class, particularly spellcasters, become powerful exponentially.
Basically, a level 20 Fighter as about 20 times more powerful than a level 1 fighter (20 times the BAB, HP, etc) whereas a level 20 wizard is more like 400 times more powerful (cause fear vs power word: kill).

[Arakune]

the class itself don't need anything, just some flexibility to make something new and diferent. you know, the fighter are not just a walking weapon. try to see some movies and adapt some cool moves and traits of the fighters.

[tjwitz]

My feeling is that with only the core books, the fighter is in need of some better feats to take at higher levels, but I haven't played one myself in some time. I have the compete warrior/adventurer and I think these two books do a great job of expanding the feat selection for them.

Fighters, however, are excellent vehicles for PrCs, so perhaps it's just a question of making sure there are enough PrCs to interest your fighter-types, since PrCs tend to ramp up the power curve.

[its_all_ogre]

extra feat tree's or extended tree's are what is needed. have to agree a really high level fighter needs no fighter feats by level 12, then you've had w-focus, w-specialization and greater focus/specialization so there is no further need for fighter levels. just throw the rest into barbarian and away you go!
but most classes have no reason to stick to the base class to be fair. wizard/sorcerer/cleric get virtually nothing. even paladin has less need than you'd expect. most of the core classes can go Prc and get better bonuses than remaining the one class.
i think mainly druid/ranger/monk need to stay with main class. bard/rogue is debatable depending on your personal taste.

[PaleAngel]

Sounds like Dhaevar's got it about right. All the other classes get different things as they go up in level, that seem to be more powerful than your average Fighter. Even the other martial classes.

Barbarian: increased rage, movemenr, DR, etc
Monks: Cease aging, beome outsiders, slow fall
Paladins: immunity to all disease, immunity to fear, enhanced mount abilities
Rangers: Enhancements to favored enemy, combat styles, spells, animal companion progression.
Fighter: Feats.

Now, the fact of the matter is that the pure fighter is one of the most terrifying melee combatants in the DnD universe due to the sheer specialization or versitility of which he is capable.

The fighter also does have a number of "Fighter only feats" which add further flair to the class. Some people feel that the fact that the fighter's fundamental construction doesn't change implies that he is comparetively weaker than members of other classes, but in my opinion the fighter class performs exactly as it was designed and is a blast to play. If they added a few features toward the middle and end of the class, like maybe one free weapon focus, and one free improved crit, I'd bet most of those complaints would die down.

I think I start rambling in there, since I'm trying to type in between working.

[Arakune]

too much potencial wasted in lack of cool moves... sniff :'(

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I'd have to say "more powerful feats" would be good. The only feats that are absolutely unobtainable by 10th level are Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and Improved Precise Shot. And all three of those can be picked up by 14th level. Come 16th level, the sorcerer gets 8th level spells—something that would be unbalanced before 10th level. Meanwhile, the fighter's remaining options will be feats that are balanced for 10th level.

So c'mon. Give 'em something worth taking at 16th level! And sure, make it fighter only. That'll make it special as well as worthwhile.

[valadil]

By the time you've hit 20, or for that matter even 10, levels of fighter, you probably have more feats than you know what to do with. By that token, the feats you get later on are actually weaker than the first few.

The only thing I can think of is to make some ginormous feat trees that are only accessible to high level fighters.

[Mike_G]

I think that the fighter is very powerful at low level and less so at high, in the same way the wizard is weak at low level and insanely powerful at high level.

I don't think fighters need any more class features, or number of feats, but they do benefit from new feats in the expanded books.

Even if they have already taken the basic combat feats, there's always a benefit to a feat. I've never beleive there is such a thing as too many, or even enough, feats. You can always take Focus in an additional weapon, or start a new tree fro ranged combat once you've maxed out your melee tree. And Iron Will, Lightneing reflexes, Toughness are always good. Skill focus can do a lot for a class with so few skill points, as can feats like Alertness, Athletic, etc.

In short, I don't think fighters are underpowered, I just think that they are very customizable, and if you only think as far as WF/WS Big Smashy Weapon, Power Attack, Cleave, and then run out of imagination, you're selling the fighter short.

[Amotis]

Short Answer: No
Long Answer: No, it doesn't.

Kidding ;) Anyway, I have full trust in Wizards of the Coast when dealing with the PHB base classes. I may not fully understand that balance they have created, but I certainly accept it. Fighter's are balanced because Wizard's made it that way. They have strengths and weaknesses, like all the base classes. And plus, it's an easy class for newbie players to learn on(contary to the dwarven cleric every group slaps on the new guy).

[Sylvius]

Fighter's don't need more feat slots, they need more powerful feats. The issue with fighters is that the ability they gain at level 20 (a feat) isn't much more powerful than what they gain at level 1 (a feat) whereas everyother class, particularly spellcasters, become powerful exponentially.
Basically, a level 20 Fighter as about 20 times more powerful than a level 1 fighter (20 times the BAB, HP, etc) whereas a level 20 wizard is more like 400 times more powerful (cause fear vs power word: kill).

Is there anything wrong with that, though? A level 1 Fighter is significantly (some might say vastly) more powerful than a level 1 Wizard, so the gap at level 20 is offset by an opposing gap at level 1.

This isn't new. Wizards have always started out weaker than Fighters and surpassed them in the mid-levels.

[Munchy]

Fighter's don't need more feat slots, they need more powerful feats. The issue with fighters is that the ability they gain at level 20 (a feat) isn't much more powerful than what they gain at level 1 (a feat) whereas everyother class, particularly spellcasters, become powerful exponentially.
Basically, a level 20 Fighter as about 20 times more powerful than a level 1 fighter (20 times the BAB, HP, etc) whereas a level 20 wizard is more like 400 times more powerful (cause fear vs power word: kill).

This analysis is flawed. For starters what measure for power are you using to make this claim? To claim that the fighter goes up linearly but the wizard exponentially is not a reaslitic assessment. Wizards do improve as they gain levels and go from being one of the weakest classes at first level to the most powerfull at high levels, but the differential is not that great as to claim linear vs. exponential. However, one could argue that is more of a problem with how wizards and magic are handled at high levels than with the fighter class.

In regard to a 20th level wizard being "only" twenty times more powerfull that a first level fighter consider the following matchup : One 20th level fighter vs. 20 1st level fighters. The 20th level fighter will slaughter the 20 1st level fighters. Each one of the 4 attacks per round has such a huge bonus that it will strike, and the damage will kill a first level fighter. Add the cleave and great cleave feats and the fighter will kill all 1st level characters in adjacent squares each round. Assuming the first level fighters don't run away in terror after the first round, they will die very quickly.

Fighters have one of the more balanced power progressions as they level because the relevant abilities scale linearly (This does not imply that "power" scales linearly). The only thing I've seen for measuring power is the CR rating and that is most definitely a non-linear function in terms of the number of creatures and their level (One lvl 22 character has a CR of 20, but 2 level 11 characters do NOT have a CR of 20).

A specialist fighter type is important in any party. A pure fighter is not underpowered, in many ways it is the standard for a balanced progression vs. which the power of most other builds is measured. High level wizards are insanely buff, so saying that something is underpowered compared to them is not really saying that much.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Something that just came to mind in comparing the power level of different classes: What about tracking where their wealth goes?

Would it be fair to say that a wizard or sorcerer would need to spend his or her wealth on wands + staffs + scrolls + miscellaneous defense-related items to boost defense and so on while a fighter only really needs to focus on boosting one weapon and one set of armor? In other words, a fighter probably gets quality class-related equipment versus a magic-user's quantity. And if this is true, does it help balance them out?

I haven't done a thorough analysis on this, but I think it's be worth considering.

[Dhavaer]

A fighter with only a weapon and armour will die fairly easily due to a lack of adaptability. Also, the Wealth by level system assumes a certain amount of expenditure for consumables. The fighter buys healing potions, the wizard buys (or more likely makes) scrolls.

[Spuddly]

Fighters can go for as long as they have healing potions. Once that level 14 wizard runs out of upper level spells, he's useless.

And when the party cleric or bard starts buffing the fighter, watch out.


If any of the melee classes needs 'fixing,' it's the barbarian.

[Dhavaer]

Why the barbarian?

[Sylvius]

Fighters can go for as long as they have healing potions. Once that level 14 wizard runs out of upper level spells, he's useless.

That's a pointless comparison. Why not say:

Wizards can go for as long as they have level-appropriate spells. Once that Fighter runs out of healing potions, he's dead.

Furthermore, there's hardly a need for upper-level spells in every encounter. Many encounters can be passed with judicious use of low-level spells like Grease or Obscuring Mist.

[Spuddly]

Barbarians have little versatility and like 2 PrC, neither of which are very party friendly (the Forsaker[I think] and the Frenzied Berzerker).

[Dhavaer]

Rage Mage, and Bear Warrior as well. Also combines well with Sorcerer to make a Dragon Disciple.
Lack of versatility isn't a weakness either. Paladins and monks aren't terribly versatile. D&D tends to reward specialisation, and that's what Barbarians do. Specialise in running up an hitting thing with large axes, swords or hammers.

[felblood]

Wouldn't that be more of a problem with their PrCs than the barbarians themselves? Besides, the barbarian isn't really intended to be versitile and customisable; that's a fighter's job. If it wasn't for the niftiness of their d12 HD at first level I'd sugest turning them into a PrC.

The fighter on the other hand can be turned into just about anything you want him to be. His only limitations are the feats available to your campain, and there is at least one that has broad apeal in every splatbook.

Though I agree that the core feat trees are too short and don't branch enough. They're more like feat pillars, but shorter. Like a feat fencepost.

Do your fighters a favor and get yourself a big book full of feats. Feats make everyone cooler.

[Caelestion]

Two CR 11s is one EL 13 encounter, but I was under the impression that a 20th-level fighter was CR 20.

[Ghostwalker]

A pure fighter is still one of the strongest classes in the game as long as you can get the feats to complement one another. So in that respect the class does not need fixing. You have to remember a fighter will keep his abilities to deal large amounts of damage pretty much all the time and when they are in anti magic zones. And you should never be underestimated how useful that is.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

A fighter with only a weapon and armour will die fairly easily due to a lack of adaptability. Also, the Wealth by level system assumes a certain amount of expenditure for consumables. The fighter buys healing potions, the wizard buys (or more likely makes) scrolls.
Okay, what I probably should have said is that the equipment I mentioned is the primary need of the class.

A wizard needs spell trigger and spell completion items to increase versatility and class-ability endurance, two things the fighter already has (once again, unlimited sword swings vs. 40+bonus spell slots only). Then, the wizard needs protective wondrous items to ensure survival. Only after purchasing a boatload of wands, staves, scrolls, and protective items does the wizard get to take a chance on some of the more interesting and unique items.

Meanwhile, the fighter only needs one weapon and one suit of armor. Then he or she can buy the icing items.

And after the pair sees to their respective primary needs, the fighter might have more money left over to spend on those other miscellaneous items. So the fighter can perhaps afford better quality miscellaneous magic.

Anyway, that's still just an unsubstantiated theory that hasn't even gotten so much as a thorough thought experiment to test it out. I probably need to play more super-high level adventurers to see how that really turns out.

[Dhavaer]

Considering how expensive a magic weapon of any decent quality is, I'd be surprised if the fighter had much to spend at all. Wands and scrolls are comparitively cheap. They run out, sure, but they're more easily replaceable.

[WhiteMonkey]

I play the Fighter. I like it. I've never felt useless in a fight.
It doesn't strike me as broken.
Thus if it's not broke, don't fix it.

[Shecky]

"Underpowered only in comparison to insanely powerful high-level casters" is still underpowered in comparison. There does need to be some non-PrC goodie for high-level straight-ahead fighters.

Maybe something along the lines of "Death Strike" (give up all attacks in a round to get a big-damage, increased-critical "lower the boom") or "Fearsome Combatant" (like a big brother to Power Attack, except each attack with the feat adds to a morale subtraction for opponents who can see the fighter - maybe make Great Cleave a prereq and call it "Amazing Cleave," where an opponent struck for enough damage is literally cloven in two).

Possibly a "Hulk SMASH!" thing called "Destroy" (opponent who fails a Reflex save gets quite literally splattered on the floor and walls).

"Kick A$$" (on a successful critical, you can choose to give usual critical damage or to do normal damage AND send opponent flying 10 ft/5 fighter levels, adding bludgeoning damage from getting smacked around by ground and/or wall).

"War Machine" (every consecutive hit adds a bonus to atk and dmg for the next attack).

I know! Make one called "Giant in the Playground" and have it be the offensive version of the Defensive Stance - you become a phenomenal weapon for destruction but become winded at the end of a certain time.

[tsu]

Although I personally would probably switch to a prestige class above lv 10 I don’t think the fighter significantly underpowered,
The only thing to be careful of is that because of the limited feats a lv20 fighter using only the PhB is going to be a lot weaker than one using feats from some other handbooks and a fighter splat book

[Ghostwalker]

Considering how expensive a magic weapon of any decent quality is, I'd be surprised if the fighter had much to spend at all. Wands and scrolls are comparitively cheap. They run out, sure, but they're more easily replaceable.

How many high level fighter buy there magic weapons and armour most just acquire through the various adventures they go on.

[Munchy]

The fighter needs protective and random woundrous items as much as the wizard.

The wizard does not need tons of staves or wands, though some backup scrolls are always nice. Given the expense of these items the wizard will only use them on rare ocassions, and if a battle is still undecided after using up most of the spell slots, odds are that retreat is not such a bad idea. Once my wizard has skewed the odds in a battle enough he will literally do nothing and let the tanks finish up their job. Why waste spells or charges when the fighters have it under control?

More spells known implies more power. A wizard will judiciously spend GP to acquire spells from scrolls and use the rest on items. Sticking to WBL the caster and fighter will have similar amounts of magical items, because what the caster has sunken into scrolls and focuses the fighter will have spent on his armor and main weapon.

[Dhavaer]

For another feat, how about one to increase the massive damage DC? It would require Power Attack, and probably Cleave and Great Cleave as well. And a very high BAB. Maybe +18.

[Shecky]

Although I personally would probably switch to a prestige class above lv 10 I don’t think the fighter significantly underpowered,
The only thing to be careful of is that because of the limited feats a lv20 fighter using only the PhB is going to be a lot weaker than one using feats from some other handbooks and a fighter splat book


Which prestige class? None of them are really appealing, not like some of the spellcasting-related PrCs. I mean, my dwarven fighter would THINK about Dwarven Defender... if he were lawful. I think there should be a Dwarven Attacker. ;D

[Dhavaer]

Isn't there a Dwarven Battlerager?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

For another feat, how about one to increase the massive damage DC? It would require Power Attack, and probably Cleave and Great Cleave as well. And a very high BAB. Maybe +18.
Yeah. You'd need a fighter that can regularly dish out 50+ damage for the concept to fit. So yeah, I like it. ;D

[Dhavaer]

I'm glad you like it. :)

[tjwitz]

I don't think it needs to be reliably 50+ damage to be useful - it's good enough since it's near-vorpal (fort save vs death) - except it works on more than a nat 20 if you have a greater threat range somehow.

Especially since most two-handing strength-based fighters can easily deal 50+ on a crit past 8th level or so.

[pocketwatch]

Wow. Three pages and no jokes about *fixing* the fighter to stop him from being such a tomcat.

[Casualgamer]

No. Arcane spellcasters need a nerf.

[Shecky]

Yep, Dhav, but it smacks too much of the Barbarian for me. I'm looking for a controlled machine of war.

[Raum]

I don't think the fighter class itself needs any fixing, I do think the fighter would benefit from more feats though. And if you really want to benefit the fighter, make more long feat chains. Things like Whirlwind Attack that require four other feats to get. Yes, a non-fighter could take it also, but a fighter could take feats in two or three such five feat chains. More of the tactical feats from Complete Warrior may also help.

While I tend to agree with those saying spell casters are overpowered, part of the issue is simply that casters progress through nine distinct levels of power. The longest feat chain I can think of is the Whirlwind Attack chain...five feats. The Spirited Charge series is only three feats, Great Cleave is three, and both can be accomplished at fairly low levels. The only feat tree forcing a fighter to wait till middling-high levels is the specialization tree.

The fighter class isn't really underpowered itself, it just suffers from a lack of endgame choices. Longer feat chains culminating in some decent endgame abilities would solve that issue.

[Dhavaer]

Yep, Dhav, but it smacks too much of the Barbarian for me. I'm looking for a controlled machine of war.

I'd like it better if I could think of more feats to have as pre-reqs. I want it to be so a fighter can take it with a little planning, but a barbarian/paladin/whatever can take it, but not without losing all but one or two feats.
What do you think would be better?

[ILOVEKAREN]

I agree that a few higher-powered fighter feats might make the fighter more competitive at higher levels. Maybe a Greater Improved Critical, with Improved Crit and BAB +12 as prereqs, and tripling crit chance.

[Munchy]

I suspect that a splat book with fighter feats would have lots of good stuff. Here are three feat suggestions:

1. Active parry. The fighter sacrifices one of his attacks that round and uses it to parry any one melee attack from an oponent within reach during that round. The attack to be parried must be declared before the attack roll of that attack is known. If in "active parry mode" the fighter can block attacks even before initiative would normally allow him to act. A fighter can parry as many attacks as he has attacks per round.

This is basically the fighter version of counterspell where one fighter can neutralize another. Very usefull when acting as a bodyguard or when trying to contain opponents.

2. Move opponent. The fighter can sacrifice one attack per round and attempt to grab an oponent instead. The grab automatically succeeds (Unless the opponent has Freedom of Movement) and the fighter can push the opponent 5ft in any direction if he defeats the opponent in a Str check. On a successfull Str check the opponent is displaced (And suffers AoO for the movement). If the Str check fails both the fighter and the opponent stay in their current positions. (Unlike bullrush you can choose in which direction you move the opponent)

Usefull for getting meat shields out of the way and closing in on the main opponent. Also usefull for clearing the way when escaping.

3. Tactical mind. A fighter has considerable knowledge in tactics and combat and is aware of potential dangers before others are. In any situation that where an opponent is going to block, trap, ambush, flank or take some other tactical action in sight of the fighter he/she gets a roll to realize this.

The DCs would be set by the DM and it would be an Int based check. This is one case where I would introduce the "warfare" skill. This feat makes use of the fighter's training and knowledge to improve the party's odds of tackling complex encounters.

Sample uses :

E.g. Approaching the entrace to the pass the fighter realizes that this is a very good place for an ambush and that the party should be extra carefull. The party sends the ranger scouting and discovers some bandits half a mile ahead.

E.g. The fighter notices that 2 enemy soldiers did not join the melee and ran off in a different direction. If the fighter is familiar with the layout of the castle he has a chance to determine where those two soldiers are going. (To lock the main doors in this case).

These feats are probably somewhat overpowered, but can be worked into something reasonable. In some cases it may be replaced with a series of feats to get the same end effect. The idea is to make use of the fact that a fighter is a trained warrior and make him something other than a mindless damage-dealing tank.

[Casualgamer]

I suspect that a splat book with fighter feats would have lots of good stuff. Here are three feat suggestions:

1. Active parry. The fighter sacrifices one of his attacks that round and uses it to parry any one melee attack from an oponent within reach during that round. The attack to be parried must be declared before the attack roll of that attack is known. If in "active parry mode" the fighter can block attacks even before initiative would normally allow him to act. A fighter can parry as many attacks as he has attacks per round.

This is basically the fighter version of counterspell where one fighter can neutralize another. Very usefull when acting as a bodyguard or when trying to contain opponents.

2. Move opponent. The fighter can sacrifice one attack per round and attempt to grab an oponent instead. The grab automatically succeeds (Unless the opponent has Freedom of Movement) and the fighter can push the opponent 5ft in any direction if he defeats the opponent in a Str check. On a successfull Str check the opponent is displaced (And suffers AoO for the movement). If the Str check fails both the fighter and the opponent stay in their current positions. (Unlike bullrush you can choose in which direction you move the opponent)

Usefull for getting meat shields out of the way and closing in on the main opponent. Also usefull for clearing the way when escaping.

3. Tactical mind. A fighter has considerable knowledge in tactics and combat and is aware of potential dangers before others are. In any situation that where an opponent is going to block, trap, ambush, flank or take some other tactical action in sight of the fighter he/she gets a roll to realize this.

The DCs would be set by the DM and it would be an Int based check. This is one case where I would introduce the "warfare" skill. This feat makes use of the fighter's training and knowledge to improve the party's odds of tackling complex encounters.

Sample uses :

E.g. Approaching the entrace to the pass the fighter realizes that this is a very good place for an ambush and that the party should be extra carefull. The party sends the ranger scouting and discovers some bandits half a mile ahead.

E.g. The fighter notices that 2 enemy soldiers did not join the melee and ran off in a different direction. If the fighter is familiar with the layout of the castle he has a chance to determine where those two soldiers are going. (To lock the main doors in this case).

These feats are probably somewhat overpowered, but can be worked into something reasonable. In some cases it may be replaced with a series of feats to get the same end effect. The idea is to make use of the fact that a fighter is a trained warrior and make him something other than a mindless damage-dealing tank.

I disagree with active parry, I think expertise works fine in it's place. Besides, active parry is not something that is particularily special to fighters.

[Dhavaer]

I think, for the active parry, that you would need to either have the sacrificed attackto be the highest, have an opposed roll to see if the parry succeeds, or simply say you can't parry an attack with a higher attack bonus (not BAB) than your own.

[Shecky]

One I'd dearly love to see is Counter. As opposed to Parry, in which a combatant simply blocks an attack, a counter blocks an attack and turns that block into its own attack. Sort of a within-combat AoO, and IRL, if a person is familiar with parrying but has never seen an actual counter can be dead very quickly as a result.

Hmm... maybe this could be a feat. Make it so that if a combatant engaged in melee with the Counter feat-holder misses on his attack roll by 10 or more, the feat-holder basically gets a free attack every time that happens. Or make it once per round with Counter and unlimited times per round with Greater Counter.

I like it. Although I'm sure that the rogues would probably gank this feat...

[Munchy]

I am aware that active parry is overpowered as it is. I didn't want to get bogged down in the details of how much to water it down before it is balanced.

The main problem is that it is automatic and that it applies regardless to the level differential between the characters involved.

It is different enough from expertise that it makes sense to have it as a feat. Expertise only applies to the fighters AC and does not really go towards the notion of defending others. A classic example of this feat would be Vader stopping Luke's lightsaber before it hits the emperor. To my knowledge (Incomplete I admit) there is nothing in D&D that would allow you to pull such a move.

As to how to balance it, I'd make it a fairly high level feat with non-negligible requirements, and THEN I would make it an attack roll to counter the ememy's weapon with a +10 bonus to the fighter. (50% chance of interrupting someone of the same level) but I would allow followup feats that add a +4 bonus to this roll. Thus someone with this feat and the two followups might have a +18 bonus on the check.

Edit : You'd have to be carefull with the implementation of counter to avoid overpowering it. I think it would make a nice followup on the feat tree after Active Parry. I.e. if your active parry suceeds you have a chance to counter and hit that opponent.

[Raum]

1. Active parry. The fighter sacrifices one of his attacks that round and uses it to parry any one melee attack from an oponent within reach during that round. The attack to be parried must be declared before the attack roll of that attack is known. If in "active parry mode" the fighter can block attacks even before initiative would normally allow him to act. A fighter can parry as many attacks as he has attacks per round.

This is basically the fighter version of counterspell where one fighter can neutralize another. Very usefull when acting as a bodyguard or when trying to contain opponents.
Interesting idea, probably needs a bit of balancing...maybe change it to add the fighter's BAB to AC for the one attack? That would also get you diminishing returns if you use your iterative attacks to parry. What would you have as prerequisites?


2. Move opponent. The fighter can sacrifice one attack per round and attempt to grab an oponent instead. The grab automatically succeeds (Unless the opponent has Freedom of Movement) and the fighter can push the opponent 5ft in any direction if he defeats the opponent in a Str check. On a successfull Str check the opponent is displaced (And suffers AoO for the movement). If the Str check fails both the fighter and the opponent stay in their current positions. (Unlike bullrush you can choose in which direction you move the opponent)

Usefull for getting meat shields out of the way and closing in on the main opponent. Also usefull for clearing the way when escaping.
Personally, I'd prefer to work within the existing rules. Maybe a couple feats which add features to grapple & bull rush with improved grapple/bull rush as prerequisites. But as is, this one almost negates the need to ever bull rush.


3. Tactical mind. A fighter has considerable knowledge in tactics and combat and is aware of potential dangers before others are. In any situation that where an opponent is going to block, trap, ambush, flank or take some other tactical action in sight of the fighter he/she gets a roll to realize this.

The DCs would be set by the DM and it would be an Int based check. This is one case where I would introduce the "warfare" skill. This feat makes use of the fighter's training and knowledge to improve the party's odds of tackling complex encounters.

Sample uses :

E.g. Approaching the entrace to the pass the fighter realizes that this is a very good place for an ambush and that the party should be extra carefull. The party sends the ranger scouting and discovers some bandits half a mile ahead.

E.g. The fighter notices that 2 enemy soldiers did not join the melee and ran off in a different direction. If the fighter is familiar with the layout of the castle he has a chance to determine where those two soldiers are going. (To lock the main doors in this case).
This may be better as just a skill if it simply grants the fighter knowledge/warning of an opponents actions. You could do something with feats to give a fighter limited versions of the marshal auras though...say a tactical feat which allows the fighter to direct his teamates to take the best advantage of the terrain thereby gaining a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. What prerequisites would you chose for such tactical feats? Skill based on your proposed warfare skill or based on other feats?


These feats are probably somewhat overpowered, but can be worked into something reasonable. In some cases it may be replaced with a series of feats to get the same end effect. The idea is to make use of the fact that a fighter is a trained warrior and make him something other than a mindless damage-dealing tank.
They may need a little polishing, but they have definite possibilities. :)

[Munchy]

I'll try to balance them and then I'll post the completed versions of those feats/skills to this thread.

[Munchy]

{table]
Parry [General]

You know how to block attacks.

Prerequisite : Weapon Specialization with weapon, fighter level 8th.

Benefit : The fighter sacrifices a melee attack that round to parry any one melee attack from an opponent within reach during that round. The attack being blocked does not need to be directed at the fighter, it only needs to be in reach of the fighter's weapon. The attack to be parried must be declared before the attack rolls are known. The fighter can block attacks even before initiative would normally allow him to act if he was in parry mode at the time the attack was made. The fighter makes an attack roll using 10 + the sacrificed attack's bonus vs. the attack to be parried. If the parry attempt matches or exceeds the opponent's attack the parry succeeds. The fighter can select which attack will be sacrificed for the parry. If the designated opponent does not attack during that round the sacrificed attack is wasted.

Normal : A character without this feat does the parry check with a -6 penalty and on a failure suffers a AoO from the creature the block was attempted on.

Special : Feat not applicable to ranged weapons or reach weapons.
[/table]

{table]
Improved parry [General]

You are an expert in blocking attacks.

Prerequisite : Parry, fighter level 10th.

Benefit : You can use parry as many times per round as you have attacks. Additionally each parry attempt will be done with an additional +4 bonus. (For a total of +14)
[/table]

{table]
Masterfull parry [General]

You are a master in blocking attacks.

Prerequisite : Improved parry, fighter level 14th.

Benefit : Additionally each parry attempt will be done with an additional +4 bonus. (For a total of +18 )
[/table]

{table]
Counter [General]

You can counter attacks that you would have sucessfully parried.

Prerequisite : Improved parry, fighter level 14th.

Benefit : Once per round when a fighter sucessfully parries an attack it is automatically converted into a counter. The counter attempt must be declared before the result of the parry attempt is known. The attack is done using the original attack bonus with a -12 penalty.
[/table]

{table]
Improved Counter [General]

You are an expert at countering.

Prerequisite : Counter, fighter level 16th.

Benefit : The fighter can attempt a counter anytime a parry is attempted. The attack bonus penalty is reduced to -10.
[/table]

{table]
Masterfull Counter [General]

You are a master at countering.

Prerequisite : Counter, fighter level 18th.

Benefit : The attack bonus penalty is reduced to -8.
[/table]

{table]
Slick fighter [General]

You are an expert at countering.

Prerequisite : Fighter level 12th.

Benefit : Your attacks are difficult to counter. Opponents take an additional -4 penalty when trying to counter you.
[/table]

{table]
Move opponent [General]

You can push your enemies around while in combat.

Prerequisite : Combat expertise.

Benefit : The fighter can sacrifice one attack per round and attempt to grab an opponent and move them into any adjacent square. The grab automatically succeeds (Unless the opponent has Freedom of Movement) and the fighter can push or pull the opponent 5ft in any direction if he defeats the opponent in a Str check. On a successfull Str check the opponent is displaced and the fighter occupies the opponent's old position. If the Str check fails both the fighter and the opponent stay in their current positions.

Normal : A character without this can attempt to move an opponent but suffers an AoO as if a grapple had been attempted.

Special : A character can only attempt to move an opponent up to one size larger.
[/table]

{table]
Tactical mind [General]

You view your surroundings through a tactical perspective.

Prerequisite : Alertness, Fighter level 6th.

Benefit : You have considerable knowledge in tactics and combat and are mindfull of the present. You are aware of tactical consequences of events before others are. In any situation that where an opponent is going to block, trap, ambush, flank or take some other tactical action in sight of the fighter he/she gets an automatic knowledge check to realize this. It also allows the fighter to notice when surroundings are conducive to certain tactical manouvres. This ability is dependent on the warfare skill but functions automatically. A character with this feat gets an additional +2 to Spot and Listen checks when dealing with groups of creatures. A failed check does not reveal any usefull information.

(Basically, the DM makes the player roll knowledge warfare checks when appropriate. Similar to an Elf's automatic chance to detect secret doors, but more sensical)

Example: Approaching the entrace to the pass the fighter realizes that this is a very good place for an ambush and that the party should be extra carefull (Sucessfull skill check). Given recent reports of bandits in the area the party decides to be carefull and sends the ranger scouting. Indeed, the fighter's judgement was right: There are bandits half a mile ahead.[/table]

[Arakune]

munchy, you are THE MAN!!!

[Venatius]

Just to toss my change in the ring, I would concur the fighter needs fixed for most of the previously mentioned reasons. But for me personally, the most telling reason was how easily I was able to make a cleric that was a more terrifying melee combatant than the party's fighter in every regard; AC, damage, attack rolls, HP, the works. Plus he still had some spellcasting to throw around. *shudder*

[Shecky]

Venatius, now you HAVE to tell us. Details!

[Ghostwalker]

Just to toss my change in the ring, I would concur the fighter needs fixed for most of the previously mentioned reasons. But for me personally, the most telling reason was how easily I was able to make a cleric that was a more terrifying melee combatant than the party's fighter in every regard; AC, damage, attack rolls, HP, the works. Plus he still had some spellcasting to throw around. *shudder*

Yes, but can your cleric do that in an anti magic shell? Or been hit by a 20th level dispel magic in the first round. Or he is forced to fight before he can cast any buff spells. There are numerous ways to take down buff spells. What a lot of people forget clerics and mages need there spells to be active to be powerful in combat fighters do not they are constantly good at fighting.

[Ashes]

The best fix I've seen to this problem, would be to bring in the Feat masteries of Iron Heroes. Nearly every feat is in itself a chain of up to ten feats with nicely scaled power levels.

[Sylvius]

Rough out a combat in Iron Heroes with an Executioner who maxed out his Cleave feat.

It's something to see.

[PinkysBrain]

Yes, but can your cleric do that in an anti magic shell?Initiate of mystra can.

Time to buff really isn't much of a problem at high level ... contingency, spell matrix, swift spells, quicken, timestop/temporal acceleration.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

If all you're doing with a fighter is standrd stand-and-whack, a cleric can do that better.

Keep in mind, though, that a fighter can also get a whole lot of useful buffs from party members, and in fact should.

Finally, there's the spiked chain and loads and loads of feats.

I'm playing an Eberron-drow fighter with a scorpion chain, like a spiked chain...

Level 1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes
Level 2: Combat Expertise
Level 3: Improved Trip
Level 4: Dodge
Level 6: Mobility, Karmic Strike
Level 8: Sidestep
Level 9: Elusive Target
Level 10: TWF
Level 12: ITWF, Double Hit
Level 14: Power Attack
Level 15: Improved Disarm
Level 16: Deft Opportunist

And that's pure fighter. The build can be improved in a few ways (for example, start with Monk 2--get Improved Trip that way; later take Defensive Throw, which lets you trip the foe you have a dodge bonus against if they attack you and misses). As is... four levels to go. Get Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Expertise or something.

Karmic Strike sidestep is one of several great combinations for the fighter. Activate Karmic Strike. They hit you... you trip them. You take a five-foot step back and take your free attack. Disarm attempt! You get a horrific bonus on the Disarm check, because you're a fighter with uber-high dexterity for a high attack bonus, and they're prone, which gives them -4 on attack rolls (including the opposed one for Disarm) and gives you +4.

Even without the tripping, it allows you to negate a full attack from one person a round--you hit them when they hit you, thanks to Karmic Strike... and then you take a five-foot step out of their range!

In later levels, you get Double Hit. They hit you once? You hit them *twice* and Sidestep away.
You're not high on damage, but elemental damage for your weapon, buffs, etc. help. Furthermore, you have a very high AB, and are tripping people, which gives you bonuses. Deft Opportunist will give you more bonuses on attacks of opportunity. Use Power Attack with the two-handed Spiked Chain to up your damage at a 2:1 ratio.

This builld is brilliant at battlefield control. Enemies wind up tripped and disarmed, and you make more attacks of opportunity than regular attacks. No cleric can do what it can do.

The twinkerrific Elusive Target tactical feat, furthermore, lets you negate power attacks on you (you're vulnerable to people out-damaging you and taking you down) from the person you apply your Dodge bonus to; furthermore, you can provoke an AoO when you withdraw from a square and if they miss, you get to trip them; and, best of all... if two people are flanking you, apply your dodge bonus to one of them; their first attack automatically misses you, and they make an attack vs. their flanking buddy, who counts as flat-footed!

There are other ways to build a good fighter. The basic fighter, though, yeah, is underpowered.

[ccelizic]

Elusive target is a beautiful feat, that is all that needs to be said.

I honestly get the feeling that combat expertise tries to cover the ground for parrying. I mean you take -5 on attack you throw your first attack at the attack bonus that you'd be using as if you sacrificed an attack, yet you still get your full allotment of swings. Mind you if you REALLY want to shut someone out on the AC front, you take improved combat expertise, which allows you to dump obscene amounts of attack bonus into your AC. If you combine this with goad you can attempt to lock someone down and force them to attack you to no effect.

One "parry" affect may be a feat that makes it so if an opponent misses an attack agianst you while you are fighting defensively by 5 or more then he's rendered flat footed in regards to the next attack you deliver on him. Of course vs a lot of targets flat footed doesn't help too much, but it does open the door for trip/grapple/disarm/shove/overrun with no fear of attacks of oppertunity as well. Sure the attack is not immediately after when he delivers it, but the whole multiple attacks on your turn and turns is a fudge as it is it gets too clunky when you got all these opposed rolls and extra attacks in the middle of the attack and a dervish or tempest could really munchkin that other system. Be more interesting if they worked by an initiative pass system like in Shadowrun, where guys with multiple actions get it spread over the round, but I'd have no idea how to

Counter attack/parry mechanics as something directly intervening with the attack tend to be a tad clunky and can get combat into a "kick your own ass" mode that SR3 melee combat suffered from, where a crippled one armed martial arts master could kick the collective rears of 20 jokers with move by wire enabled in a single round just via counter damage.

On a generic fighter build I found the array of feats easily put to good use.

Dodge to open up mobility which you use to close down flanks and get in close to the mage while taking less flank.

Spring attack, though not openly helpful, especially to a fighter who cannot cover a lot of ground, is REAL nice for closing in on things with reach. Spring attack knocks a lot of the wind out of a spiked chain fighter.

Power attack becomes a must grab for any fighter, it's a real sound way to crack damage reduction, grab that sword with both hands and let him have it.

Of course weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, and greater weapon specialization are a gimme including improved critical on your favorite weapon.

Improved initiative is something I would definitely snag, since init doesn't scale up, a +4 on it is handy all the way to higher levels, especially vs slow init things like dragons. It's handy to get your action before the dragon fires off his breath so you can down that potion of protection from elements. Also it helps a lot on the "not getting hit flat footed by the rogue at the start of combat."

Combat expertise helps you tank, which is a good thing, vs a lot of baddies you got more then enough attack bonus to connect a couple of times, and there's some things that just hurt a lot when they hit, +5 ac goes a long way and it's worth sacrificing the accuracy, especially when you got a good bard or cleric behind you buffing it right back up. If you have this and power attack you can change roles between tank, assault, and disrupting with ease. Since you have combat expertise you may as well snag whirlwind attack, helps when you get swarmed and doesn't even require you to drop something to get it started. And combat expertise opens up into the truly helpful improved trip/disarm field, a +4 on either attempt goes a long way. Improved disarm is obscene in the hands of a fighter, you got superior attack bonuses to most other things, and you get +4 for having the feat, vs any other class, if you want them to drop their weapon they are going to drop it.

Blind-fight is another must get, I don't know why more people don't take this. I've seen so many scrappers flailing blindly at invisible foes and in dark conditions or poor lighting or in the cover of dense vegetation. Blind-fight just helps immensely with combat on ALL levels.

And of course run, because it pays being able to close the gap between a you and a foe fast without sacrificing dexterity to AC, with mobility going you even get your +4 to ac on any AOO's you incur.

Throw in quickdraw and you got 20 levels worth of fighter feats.

That chain-build tripper intimidating you? Use spring attack to effortlessly slip inside his reach attack him and then cut off 5 feet to the side, and on that attack play your improved trip and disarm him while he's prone.

Raging barbarian? You got a significant AC advantage over the guy and superior damage without the rage. Fight defensively with combat expertise let him wear himself out and run out of rage then start power attacking him.

Rogues are a joke, you trip them, 5 foot adjust out of any flank they made and two hand power attack them into oblivion, their lower attack bonus makes for easy disarms.

And while this build doesn't have greater cleave to break all the images of a mirror imaged bard in a single sweep (Imagine that, a fighter without enough feats), you still threaten all the images for a whirlwind attack. Blindfight helps crack any displacement, and like that the bard's parlour tricks become no match for a crack fighter who agian, can easily bat any weapon out of the bard's hands.

Of course your natural enemy is the opposing wizard. And when you fail that abysmal will save agianst dominate person your party is going to really love having all those feats turned agianst them.

That being said, I can get a lot of tactical use out of all those feats for a generic melee fighter. But it's real easy to hybrid, take a bunch of archery feats and suddenly you are dangerous at a distance and up close. And if you use feats out of complete warrior/adventurer/arcane(anti-mage feats) the fighter grows exponentially more powerful. Just look at what the logic ninja threw out, that's a pretty workable fighter right there.

I mean complete warrior has feats that I look at the requirements and I just immediatley think "I don't even want to try to try to get this feat without a fighter, toooo many requisits!"

I can never have enough feats.

[Jural]

I think the fighter is good as he is. As a pure fighter, you can master two or three attack styles or weapons, unimagineable to another character.

It's that versatility which the fighter pays for.

One other note- fighters may have the easiest time with statistics of all the main characters. Charisma is usually unimportant, Dexterity is not critical for many builds, Wisdom is not so important, and Intelligence can even be sacrificed!

If I were to make one change to the fighter, I would allow more skill points (4+ INT) and increase their class skills to include a few more useful skills (maybe Sense Motive and Listen?). As it is, the fighter is a fairly poor bodyguard, a role I think they should excel in.

[Caelestion]

Nothing about the fighter implies learning or study. 2 skill points per level is fine. As for the perception and social skills, that's what you have a level of rogue for (with the 1d6 dirty fighting, naturally).

[Mike_G]

I think adding Spot and Listen to the class skills is reasonable. Fighters will often be guards, and if they need to pay double for these, with only two points per level anyway, they will be real easy to sneak past.

[unlit.candle]

Fighters do seem to get weaker as the levels increase as the spell casters get uber-powerful.
If anyone has seen a fighter in Epic Levels they get some really cool stuff. Most feats are only available to them and they get some of the best prestige classes.

Spell Casters are easily picked off if you catch them ill-prepared.

[timmy_pyromancer]

i find the fighter class to be highly effiective for my purposes which are to get the feats i need quickly. I like powergaming and fighter is very helpful for that and at high levels you should start taking prestige classes or multiclassing. If you need feats for a multuclassed character take 2 levels of fighter and 2 levels of psycic warrior for a total of 5 feats and some powers(expand) a very usefull prestige class for a mounted fighter is cavalier(comp warrior) the damage can get into the thousands. also fighter/rogues are a good way to go at high levels.

[ccelizic]

Well of course mages are very powerful at high levels, they are mages. Mages are downright nasty so long as they have a clean shot and aren't wasting spells trying to get something out of their face or escape grapple. Yes, the mage can get out of a grapple and all that with spells, but those are spells wasted, even if it's a quicken spell, that's a swifft action that round that couuld have been applied to attacking something.

The fighter is a workhouse, it's his job to make sure the mage has a clean work enviroment so he can worry less about being grappled and more about dirsupting the foes. It's his job to put heavy heat on the enemy mage when possible so your mage can take advantage of the situation and shut them down. It's his job to provide a good flank situations so that rogue can get into place. And it all falls on the fighter's shoulders when the golem busts out .

Sure he can't drop a wide field nuke for obscene damage, but he can use all his special tricks an infinite amount of times, and if he's good at setting up positions and working his foe he can establish good field control and keep his mage out of heat. Nice little trick on holding a line, take "hold the line" and "improved trip". You don't need a spiked chain, if someone tries to run around you to the mage (and skirting your aoo zone will burn a LOT of movement especially if two people are on mage screen duty) then you trip them, and use your free attack to stab them. If they try to charge through you directly, you still trip them, and then you whack them.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Yep, Dhav, but it smacks too much of the Barbarian for me. I'm looking for a controlled machine of war.

The way i see it, the controlled war machine IS the DD, the BR is the dwarven rager, the DD is the opposite a calcuating disciplined warrior, whose focus is on defense. I know you want an offensive dawrven PrC, but i think with all the generic ones out there, i doubt that one will be made. I see offensive obsessed dwarves as BR, but then i don't se eit as too barbarian focused..... oh well to each his own


My beef with the parry feat stuff, is that in DnD every attack roll you make represents and oppurtunity, not just that thats how amny times you swing your weapon. When you fight with a sword you do more than just swing once and hope it hits, you wait for you opponent to make and action and take advantage, i also dislike feint as an action to a degree, but i think something like that was neccessary for rogues.

[Nero24200]

Fighters have few skill ppoint, ture

But fighters can easily get Skill focus plus the half-a-million other feats that add bonus to skills

[PinkysBrain]

When you are taking skill focus feats you know it's past time to have gotten out of the fighter class.

[bean]

Fighters excell at one thing, really--getting into prestige classes.

All those bonus feats and good attack bonuses tend to open up the prestige classes much more quickly than most other classes' abilities.

But what, you say? Prestige classes tend to take a lot of skill points, too? Well, that's not really a problem. fighters are great for multiclassing, too. Your ability gain doesn't increase as you level up, so dropping a few fighter levels to take a couple rogue levels (for more skills--and probably Evasion, too :)) hardly hurts you at all.

Fighters aren't terribly good, especially at high levels. Most other classes tend to outpace them, sooner or later. That being said, Fighters do tend to be strong at low levels, they can branch out into worthwhile prestige classes faster than most other classes, and taking a level or two of fighter (or a fighter taking a level or two of something else) is almost never a bad idea if you can put that feat and attack bonus to work for you.

I don't think they're the most powerful class out there, but I do think they're fine, simply because you never have to take 20 levels of fighter if you don't want to, and there are plenty of other uses for fighter levels.

[Misat]

I still don't think that the fighter is all that underpowered. I mean yes mages rock everything, but I don't think we need to boost fighters. Just screw mages into the dark ages. Then I'll be happy.

[Jayabalard]

underpowered != broken

they aren't broken so they don't need to be fixed

ouch, didn't even look at the earlier post dates

[Draz74]

Holy Thread-O-Mancy, Batman ...

I've seen threads many months old resurrected before, but a whole year? On a topic that's been covered at least 10 times since?

[Fax Celestis]

The problem is not with the fighter; the problem is with his non-scaling feats.

[Fawsto]

This is my view on the fact that some D&D classes are unbalanced.

The Spellcasting classes are the ones that are too strong in high levels (Wizards, Clerics and Sorcerers)

.Why Wizards are overpower? Power word: Kill (lvl 20 wizards can bend reality at theyr own will)
.Why Clerics are overpower? Storm of Vengeance! Ohh! so you are not dead yet? Bull Strength! *Whack the mace on the bastard's head* (They have a plenty of powerful spells, can cure themselves and can do the job of a fighter when needed)
.Why Sorcerers are overpower? Fireball! Fireball! Fireball! Fireball! Fireball! Fireball! (By using such many spells per day they can do extreme amounts of damage just by spaming a spell)

(The spells are merely examples. There are even stronger spells, like desintegrate)

The problem here is that these classes are weaker than the fighting classes in the first level (fighters are 3 times better in the first levels), but at lvl 20 the Spellcasting classes are 30 times stronger than the fighting classes. There is no need on giving more power to the fighter so he can get as strong as the wizard, what should be done is putting some limits in the spellcasters powers and improving a little the fighting classes. Just that.

I will not even mention the bard... He is a poor bastard...

[Misat]

Holy Thread-O-Mancy, Batman ...

I've seen threads many months old resurrected before, but a whole year? On a topic that's been covered at least 10 times since?

What can I say, I wanted to make sure I could find this thread again when I got home from work. Well it worked didn't it? Also, I'm new to these boards and so I haven't read these other coverages of which you speak.

[MeklorIlavator]

Just a quick question, how would you say a fighter compares to the tome of battle, because that is effectively Wizards attempt to balance Melee compared to Magic.

Also, why can't I play the glorious(or villianous) knight who slays dragons?

Misat, if you nerf spellcasters, how will the party be able to fight, lets say a dragon or Balor? The fighter can't do anything(well, accually, he can die, but let's not get into that)

Edit: Misat, finding threads is what the search engine is for

[daggaz]

I think the best overall balance fix (yeah and fighters are far out of balance with casters, but not broken) is to make most spells a full round action to cast, while making the majority of fighter feats scale with level.


Wizards will still be able to bend some hard reality, but it will take a little longer. Clerics and druids will still be able to do CoDzilla, but once again, it will take a little more time, making it more likely they cant buff up so easily every fight. And fighters will actually SCALE with level, much like every other class.

[Marius]

What can I say, I wanted to make sure I could find this thread again when I got home from work. Well it worked didn't it? Also, I'm new to these boards and so I haven't read these other coverages of which you speak.

Here are a few links for you to read, if you still find that fighters don't need to be fixed then post your arguments. Because right now, you don't have any.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32619
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32575
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30204
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32425

[MeklorIlavator]

Wizards will still be able to bend some hard reality, but it will take a little longer. Clerics and druids will still be able to do CoDzilla, but once again, it will take a little more time, making it more likely they cant buff up so easily every fight. And fighters will actually SCALE with level, much like every other class.


I pretty much agree with you, but Divine Metamagic needs to be taken out, otherwise Clerics just buff themselves for a day

[daggaz]

Yeah I actually wanted to include a small comment about that (at least the removal of mozarella cheese sticks *cough* I mean nightsticks).

With some of the obvious 'its only in here so players can abuse the cheese out of it' items removed, a cleric would still be able to use extra turning feats/high charisma/etc to get a good solid buff going for the day, but they will be limited to what else they can persist, and they will still run into the problems of spells taking a whole round to cast. So no more running in/back ten feet and tossing a spell or what have you, its gonna be stand and cast, or dont.

In other words, they could still kick ass at high levels if properly played (as any high level adventurer should be capable of) but they will find their infinite godliness to be limited. Yay balance!

Note that if fighter feats scaled with level, taking things like the weapon focus tree would suddenly become much more desirable, and those feats should probably put a fighter somewhere near Codzilla in terms of attack bonus, with an even higher damage bonus.

[Fawsto]

Let's put this in a single argument (Most of the ideas here are from other people, I am just gathering them for a proper balance). Coment and modify at will. This is just basic ideas. They need more work on it.

1) Remove some of the Casters Powers:
. Casting Spell is a full round action (bye bye fast casting). The problem? The clerics would have to run near the target, wait a full round and finally cast a heal. This would become a little troublesome...
. After casting a spell the caster would have to make a roll agains a DC of 10 + lvl of the magic to see if they can gather enough magic energy for the next spell. If they fail they must wait 2 rounds to cast another spell. The test would be 1d20 + magic base atribute bonus (cha, wis or int) + 1/2 of the caster's lvl.

2) Give the fighting classes (generaly, the ones that have a Good BAB) a something rather impressive.
. My initial idea was a "special attack" that only those classes would be able to use. Something like a "signature move". Starting in the first lvl the Fighter would be able to use the "signature move" every 1d12 rounds (like a dragon breath weapon but with a d12), and this move would grant them 2 full round actions to be used.

They would be able to stack up to 2 manouvers ( ex: Character performs a bull rush and finishes with a full attack, or with a trip attempt). This would made quite a impressive fight between 2 fighters in high levels (imagine a fighter with the 2 weapon fighting tree doing like 20 attacks per round, it is quite good compared to some very destructive magical effects). There is a progression, so taking some lvls in the combat classes would be attractive. I imagine that at lvl 20 a fighter would be able to use this move every 1d4 rounds.

For fighters it would be like this:

1 Special Move: Every 1d12 rounds
2
3
4
5 Special Move: Every 1d10 rounds
6
7
8
9 Special Move: Every 1d8 rounds
10
11
12
13 Special Move: Every 1d6 rounds
14
15
16
17 Special Move: Every 1d4 rounds
18
19
20

For the Other combat classes:

1 Special Move: Every 1d12 rounds
2
3
4
5
6 Special Move: Every 1d10 rounds
7
8
9
10
11 Special Move: Every 1d8 rounds
12
13
14
15
16 Special Move: Every 1d6 rounds
17
18
19
20

I am still thinking about what to do for the monk... I dunno yet...
It is some kind of desperate Idea, don't take it seriously if you don't want to... It was just an attempt; I know it is full of mistakes.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't resurrect old threads and if you see one recent;y resurrected, please report it rather than posting in it. Thank you.