Need help designing a Shield Based Knight [Archive]

Protoneiko

2012-02-07, 09:32 AM

So I'm working on a character for a new game I'll be playing. The character is going to be a Lawful Good knight. They only thing is he's going to take Lawful good to a very annoying level and not kill any intellegent creatures (tie up the goblins/try to reform them/ect) Meaning NO weapons, only uses two shields to defend and knock out any attackers.

Basically I need some help trying to set up Skills and useful feats to help the character along, the story is going to start at 4th level and I'm going to be human to allow the extra bonus feat.

I'd like anything that is going to basically allow me to incease my AC and help me take attacks for the rest of the party (and possibley the enemys if the party trys to kill them)

Any ideas of suggestions?

Namfuak

2012-02-07, 10:04 AM

This character sounds like a serious That Guy...

If ToB is allowed, Crusader is probably your best bet. Get shield bash, and use a regular shield to bash with, and a tower shield for extra AC and total cover when necessary (Crusaders can use tower shields by default). Also, strap a buckler to each forearm. You'll want a minor cloak of displacement, or to get blur permanently put on you.

Also, you could look into the Justicar prestige class from Complete Warrior. You get to make non-lethal attacks with all weapons at no penalty, and get sneak attack dice when you do it, among other things.

Myth

2012-02-07, 10:07 AM

OK so:

- Two shields is a no-no. There's a dwarf-only PrC in some obscure 3rd party book but it sucks major hiney.
- Even if you make it work you ave to actually MAKE the enemy target you instead of the real threats (casters) or stop them from simply walking by you as if you were a fence post.
- Sword & shield (aka sword&board) is vastly inferior to the other ways a melee character works.

For melee, the things that work are a chain tripper/controller, an power attack heavy hitter or an ubercharger or a ToB class (that can also fill one of these roles). I would suggest you roll a Crusader from ToB if you have access to the book. Google the Crusader handbook too.

Gwendol

2012-02-07, 10:11 AM

I will just advise you to check out Person Man's knight handbook, and especially look up "Saint Bertold". I'm sure you'll find plenty of inspiration there.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429

Darrin

2012-02-07, 10:28 AM

Any ideas of suggestions?

Obligatory postiness:

Person_Man's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429)
Person_Man's Guide to Shields (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630)

In particular, you'll want to take a look at Saint Bertold in the Specific Builds section. It doesn't quite work for what you're looking for, since it involves Vow of Poverty and thus you couldn't carry around any shields, but the gist of it: Draw aggro with Test of Mettle, if they attack then their weapons break. There's another trick that I don't think got mentioned in Saint Bertold's write-up: if you use reduce person, compression, or Hengeyokai Sparrow to get really small, you can hide in your opponent's square via Confound the Big Folk, and 50% of the enemy attacks will hit your opponent instead. (Knight's Challenge has a couple quirky loopholes to it... for example, while there's provisions for flanked or flat-footed opponents, there's no prohibition against using it while hidden or invisible.)

- Two shields is a no-no. There's a dwarf-only PrC in some obscure 3rd party book but it sucks major hiney.

It *can* be done, it's just very difficult to get a benefit out of carrying two shields. Even if you're not using Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII) to TWF with shields, you can still hold one shield for defense and use the other as a bashing weapon, same as carrying any other bashing weapon in that hand. By RAW, you cannot get more than one shield bonus by holding more than one shield because the shield bonus doesn't stack with any other shield bonus. However, if you make one of your shields out of Riverine (Stormwrack), you can convert half of the shield bonus into a deflection bonus, which does stack.

- Even if you make it work you ave to actually MAKE the enemy target you instead of the real threats (casters) or stop them from simply walking by you as if you were a fence post.

That's what Test of Mettle is for. Add Ability Focus (MM) and Veil of Allure (MIC) to increase the save DC.

- Sword & shield (aka sword&board) is vastly inferior to the other ways a melee character works.

Optimization isn't always about picking the optimal strategy. "I want to do something weak/annoying/silly/cool, how do I make it *better*?" is a perfectly acceptable goal for optimization.

Protoneiko

2012-02-07, 10:32 AM

This character sounds like a serious That Guy...

He's going to be, and I know it all the players except for 1 are no board for this character, and basically the one that isn't is the player that always plays the kill everything/loot them power game character.

- Two shields is a no-no. There's a dwarf-only PrC in some obscure 3rd party book but it sucks major hiney.
- Even if you make it work you ave to actually MAKE the enemy target you instead of the real threats (casters) or stop them from simply walking by you as if you were a fence post.

I know two shields was a no-no the GM is going to allow it and I forgot to say that in the first place =p my bad.

I plan on useing test of mettle and my knights challages and possiable goad to get them to attack me.

I will just advise you to check out Person Man's knight handbook, and especially look up "Saint Bertold". I'm sure you'll find plenty of inspiration there.

Saint Bertold looks like alot of fun for this character.

I'm really looking into the Crusdar now too, that could be entertaining to throw in there. The Gm was also going to allow to to become a Mod of the Dwarven defender is that a good choice to netage sneak attacks?

Gwendol

2012-02-07, 10:38 AM

Dwarven defender is not really needed if you stack Knight and Crusader levels. You get what you want and more, without having to deal with the loss of mobility of the DD.

Pilo

2012-02-07, 10:50 AM

Myth, min-maxing is not the point here.
Furthermore, that character does not want to do any damages.

There is a magic weapon property which may be useful for that build: Merciful (Cost:+1 effect: +1d6 damages and all the damages dealt by the weapon become non-lethal). You can consider to add it to your shield or to pick-up a weapon with this property later.

You can also consider Sap, Bolas and Net as weapons you could use.

The improved disarm feat or the improved sunder feat (Destroying weapons is quite easy) may help you to persuade your opponents that fighting is useless by removing them their arsenal.

Jeff the Green

2012-02-07, 10:50 AM

Crusader is nice because (among many other reasons) you can get the maneuver Shield Block which gives an ally an AC boost equal to (your shield + 4). They also do a lot better job than the knight class at forcing enemies to attack you. Unless you're a threat, they'll just go around you, and crusaders are much bigger threats than Knights.

If you want to go with no killing, shield bashing isn't the best way to go. Shields do lethal damage unless you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls. Instead, consider getting an animated shield and a Merciful two-handed weapon. That's probably too expensive for you now, so consider getting a lasso or net and a sap along with a shield. Lassos and nets entangle enemies, allowing your allies to mop them up, and saps do non-lethal damage without a penalty. Alternatively, get the feat Subduing Strike (from Book of Exalted Deeds), which will let you do non-lethal damage without penalty with any weapon.

If you're set on the two shields, make one (preferably a spiked heavy) Merciful, and the other (preferably tower) be your defensive shield. Enchant the defensive shield as a shield, and enchant the spikes on the other shield as a weapon.

Also, remember that you don't get the shield's bonus to AC on any turn you attack with it.

Protoneiko

2012-02-07, 11:03 AM

Merciful onto one of my sheild is going to happen as soon as I can, it just seems to makes sense for the character.

and to give the character to bonus with the shields and still be able to attack I'm going to take improved shield bash.

The character is not going to be using any weapons beside the shield, goign to make it part of his backstory that he does not like real weapons. so would there be anything he could do to improve the effectiveness for shields as a weapon (I know spikes, or weapons focus/expertise could help alittle)

I want to great improved sunder in there too breaking weapons would make it easier to convince enemies to run away/surrender

Helldog

2012-02-07, 12:09 PM

Shield Sling (PHB2) for ranged trips. And Far Shot double the range.

Venger

2012-02-08, 12:17 AM

after knight 5 (your first bonus feat) dip sor 1, then go straight into abjurant champion. take "shield" and "mage armor" as both of your 1st lvl spells. (take whatever for cantrips, no one ever uses them anyway, "resistance" to beef up your saves or something like that)

sorcerer makes you cha SAD, which is stumbling block no 1 for knights by letting you use your huge cha to get bonus spells. between the free extends from abjurant champion (whose initials are even AC!) and mebbe a metamagic rod, or actually taking extend as a feat if you want, you'll have some kind of defensive buff on pretty much all the time during combat. the real bonus is AC's capstone which lets you set your caster level for your spells equal to your BA (which as a knight 5/sor1/ AC 5/xx9) will presumably be 19 (I emphatically recommend spellsword 9 for your remaining 9 levels. it is full BA (giving you a CL of 19 for your sorcerer spells!) and even gives half-casting on top of gradually reducing ASF all the way to 30% at level 9. plus it gives you a free fighter or metamagic feat at level 2! take extend spell! terrify everyone with your defensive magic. with all the boosts you're getting from abjurant champion, you'll be able to loosen it up a little with regards to armour and even cast in whatever you're wearing sooner than you think.

lmk what you think

Jeff the Green

2012-02-08, 01:11 AM

and to give the character to bonus with the shields and still be able to attack I'm going to take improved shield bash.
Probably not the best idea. Unless your DM also ruled that the normal stacking rules don't apply (which I can't tell from what you wrote), you won't get the AC bonus from one of them anyway.

I want to great improved sunder in there too breaking weapons would make it easier to convince enemies to run away/surrender

Sundering is usually not the way to go. Most enemies that are any sort of threats with weapons will either be wielding a two handed weapon or going TWF. The two handed weapon wielder will get +4 on his roll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder), so assuming you and he have the same attack bonus, you'll only hit his weapon 30% of the time. Then you have to damage his weapon, and you'll only be doing 1d6+STR, and most weapons have hardness and HP such that you won't be able to destroy them without a power attack, and if you power attack you have even less of a chance to hit his weapon! With TWF the numbers are a little bit better (50-70% chance of hitting, weapons have less HP), but you now have to destroy two weapons.

And most people carry multiple weapons.

By the time you mange to sunder his weapons, you could probably knock the average opponent out with non-lethal damage.

Finally, and I can't emphasize this enough, playing a knight and not a Knight will make the experience much more fun. Shield bashing is a less-than-optimal choice anyway, but Knights are such a horrible class you're likely to find yourself useless or even a liability in combat, which knights in shining armor should never be. Their abilities really don't do much to force enemies to attack you instead of your allies, and you're not enough of a threat to warrant attacking. Crusaders make much better knights than Knights do: they have abilities to "draw aggro," heal, and do damage with any weapon, even ones with lousy base damage.

...

Actually, if you don't mind silliness with a hint of cheese, I have one more suggestion...

Go Totemist for three levels.
Bind Girallon Arms.
Wield four shields.
??????
Profit!

Normally this wouldn't work, but since your DM changed the stacking rules... :smallamused:

Venger

2012-02-08, 01:14 AM

Actually, if you don't mind silliness with a hint of cheese, I have one more suggestion...

Go Totemist for three levels.
Bind Girallon Arms.
Wield four shields.
??????
Profit!

Normally this wouldn't work, but since your DM changed the stacking rules... :smallamused:

awesome

combine with wand of fuse arms and gift of the girallon. rinse, repeat.

Gwendol

2012-02-08, 06:32 AM

Myth

2012-02-08, 07:47 AM

That's what Test of Mettle is for. Add Ability Focus (MM) and Veil of Allure (MIC) to increase the save DC.

To claim that Test of Mettle is viable or even worth it past the early levels... :smallannoyed:

Honestly apart from the Abjurant Champion/Spellsword build this whole thread is full of (in my opinion) bad advice. I say again - the idea of using shields is very sub optimal. You will perform poorly. You have no reliable way of controlling the battlefield OR being a threat. How will any intelligent foe decide to attack the guy with the shields?

Barring the DM making every enemy behave with the intelligence of a sidescroller mook.

Helldog

2012-02-08, 08:08 AM

To claim that Test of Mettle is viable or even worth it past the early levels...
It can.

Honestly apart from the Abjurant Champion/Spellsword build this whole thread is full of (in my opinion) bad advice. I say again - the idea of using shields is very sub optimal. You will perform poorly. You have no reliable way of controlling the battlefield OR being a threat. How will any intelligent foe decide to attack the guy with the shields?
The OP wants shields. The only thing you can do right now is to help him make it as viable as possible. Bashing him for it isn't helpful. Not to mention that what you're saying is false. Sword'n'Board can have more ways to BFC or being a threat, than other archetypes. you just have to know how to do it.

Barring the DM making every enemy behave with the intelligence of a sidescroller mook.
If it'll make the game fun for the OP, what's the harm?

Myth

2012-02-08, 08:18 AM

The build won't be viable when it depends on DM fiat, since the DM can decide to play the enemies accordignly and then the dual-wielding shields man will turn into a waste of space type character, which will make feel OP bad (certanily worse then when I'm warning him of the results of his choice.)

Also I am not bashing anyone, do not put words into my mouth - I have never insulted nor have I done anything different from what is usually done here. I asked how to make a vampire PC a while back, half of the replies were "just don't", so I'm not out of line.

Please prove to me how Test of Mettle will work for the already MAD Knight class and how it will do anything past level 10. What is the realistic DC you can have at 5, 10, 15 and 20?

I'ts a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 Knight level + Cha. How exactly can you boost this to any respectable level?

Also, I'm AFB now, but wasn't it [mind-affecting]? I think it wasn't but I want to make sure.

Helldog

2012-02-08, 08:21 AM

If it'll make the game fun for the OP, what's the harm?

If the OP wants shields, Knight is a good class. Only Crusader is better. Or a specifically build Fighter.

Myth

2012-02-08, 08:37 AM

Hence me suggesting Crusader originally. And I said already how it's likely not going to be fun if he discovers his character is a bag of suck.

I've seen this in game, where the inept, Core Only, rail-road lovin' DM suggested one player roll a Monk who gave up some stuff for the ability to use javelins better. When he got pasted by a level 3 Fighter the DM suggestsed the player gets Toughness to have more HP to survive future fights.

That player became increasingly frustrated with the performance of his character and that crept into his RPing and his OOC enjoyment (or lack thereof) of the game.

So we can't rely or count on the DM to make the game fun when the build is mechanically a waste of space. You still haven't given me the run-down of how to make Test of Mettle viable past level 6-7.

Helldog

2012-02-08, 08:57 AM

Hence me suggesting Crusader originally. And I said already how it's likely not going to be fun if he discovers his character is a bag of suck.
Which doesn't have to happen if you help the OP instead of discouraging him from his choice.

I've seen this in game, where the inept, Core Only, rail-road lovin' DM suggested one player roll a Monk who gave up some stuff for the ability to use javelins better. When he got pasted by a level 3 Fighter the DM suggestsed the player gets Toughness to have more HP to survive future fights.

That player became increasingly frustrated with the performance of his character and that crept into his RPing and his OOC enjoyment (or lack thereof) of the game.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
I've seen this in game, where a sucky (or at least subpar) class was doing okay because the DM wasn't trolling the player but instead tried to make the game fun.

So we can't rely or count on the DM to make the game fun when the build is mechanically a waste of space.
Yes we can. It's a DMs job. And from what the OP tells us, the DM isn't out to get him, so we can assume that he indeed tries to make the game fun.

You still haven't given me the run-down of how to make Test of Mettle viable past level 6-7.
Meh. I've got no desire to go into an argument over numbers.
The OP chose a subpar concept - Sword'n'Board. Additionally he doesn't even want to kill. He knows his DM better than we. If he's still going through with it, I'm gonna give the DM the benefit of the doubt and trust that he will make it enjoyable for the OP.
That's all. Don't bother replying to me, because I'm done with this particular debate. I've said what I had to say.

Myth

2012-02-08, 09:27 AM

Yes you made a fine point using 4chan slang, not providing any backing to your previous claims and in general being of no more help than you claim I am, while I actually provided an alternative that could work. Reading further up, I actually missed Jeff the Green's post to which I can now say +1.

The DM's job is not to run high Int enemies like morons just so he can cater to one mechanically bad character. Especially since the RP concept can be achieved with a much better choice of class. You are done with this argument bud don't feel like you've actually proven anything beyond your own biasedness and your inability to provide arguments or put your money where your mouth is (that "argument over numbers" you mention - funny, numbers don't usually submit to being argued against if they are solid enough)

Icestorm245

2012-02-08, 09:38 AM

The problem here is that some people are assuming the DM isn't going to be nice and not going to let this character have fun. D&D isn't about Player vs. DM, in fact, it's about Player co-operating with DM to ensure both parties are having fun. And the DM generally has fun when his story progresses, so I see no reason why he won't try to adjust the fights to the players' character choices. I was in a recent game where the DM and I had an argument over something and I was (not by coincidence) shown how "wrong" I was in game. It was not only stressful and irritating to both me and the DM, but to my fellow players as well.

This is why if the DM is encouraging something like this, then I believe he can be counted on to help out the players by adjusting his fights.

Myth

2012-02-08, 09:45 AM

Surely being nice doesn't mean dumbing down every enemy? Or do we simply have different views on what nice and fun means in a DnD campaign? How are the other players going to have fun if they have adequate characters but the plot induced stupidity of the enemies makes every encounter significantly easier?

If that is the presumption the OP can roll a Commoner who dual wields shields and still have "fun" right?

Diarmuid

2012-02-08, 09:58 AM

I dont get why you need to use 2 shields to try and not kill people. You're still planning on attacking things with those shields, and you mentioned wanting to get Merciful on one of them. Why could you simply not do that with a weapon and shield as well? Is the DM also allowing you to have the AC bonus from both shields stack or something?

Helldog

2012-02-08, 10:00 AM

Is the DM also allowing you to have the AC bonus from both shields stack or something?
I'm not sure. He said:

I know two shields was a no-no the GM is going to allow it and I forgot to say that in the first place =p my bad.
But I don't know if he meant that he can stack the AC bonuses or that he just can wield two shields. I mean, you can wield two shields if I'm not mistaken, but the shield bonuses don't stack, so I don't know why his DM had to allow it.

Metahuman1

2012-02-08, 11:40 AM

I case it hasn't been mentioned,

Improving there size, or effective size, is a good way to jack up the shields usefulness.

I like putting a Greater Mighty Wallop on the one your smacking things with myself for this. Maybe consider adding a template or two that jack up your Strength if you can afford the LA.

Venger

2012-02-08, 12:21 PM

To claim that knights (the class) are a liability in combat is simply not true, and the suggested build (knight/abj ch) does have merit. The idea of using the knight here is for the test of mettle and BoD abilities. Those would be hard to come by using any other means.

glad you liked abjurant champion and spellsword

Bashing
lol, shield bash.

a pair of strongarm bracers can let you wield weapons one size category larger for only 6k. talk to your DM and see if he'll allow larger shields to carry slightly higher AC bonuses (kinda makes sense, if you're completely hiding yourself between two giant sandwich boards, you should be harder to hit than if you've got a pair of bucklers) stacks great with stuff like enlarge person which explicitly grows your equipment a size.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-08, 05:14 PM

Actually, if you don't mind silliness with a hint of cheese, I have one more suggestion...

Go Totemist for three levels.
Bind Girallon Arms.
Wield four shields.
??????
Profit!

Normally this wouldn't work, but since your DM changed the stacking rules... :smallamused:

Doesn't work. Girallon Arms gives you two extra claw attacks, not two extra arms with claws. The fluff text supports this, saying the arms are ghostly but the claws are real.

Jeff the Green

2012-02-08, 09:05 PM

Doesn't work. Girallon Arms gives you two extra claw attacks, not two extra arms with claws. The fluff text supports this, saying the arms are ghostly but the claws are real.

Oh, boo. Fine, get a wand of girallon's blessing.

Gotterdammerung

2012-02-08, 09:20 PM

take this feat

Shield Sling
( Player's Handbook II, p. 82)

[Fighter Bonus Feat, General]

You can hurl your shield as a deadly missile, turning it from a defensive item to a crushing, thrown weapon.

Prerequisite: Improved Shield Bash (PH) , Shield Specialization (PH2) , base attack bonus +9, Proficiency with shields,

Benefit: You can wield your light shield or heavy shield as a thrown weapon with a range increment of 20 feet. The shield deals damage as normal for its size (see Table 7-5, PH 116), and you gain your Strength bonus on damage as normal for a thrown weapon. In addition, you can make a ranged touch attack to initiate a trip attempt. Your target resists the trip attempt as normal. You lose your size bonus (though not a size penalty) on your Strength check. If your foe's check succeeds, he cannot attempt to trip you. You cannot throw a tower shield. You can throw a buckler, but it does no damage, and you cannot use it to trip an opponent.

Special: A fighter can select Shield Sling as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Now your shield is a ranged weapon so add this enchantment

Teleporting

This ability can be imbedded only in weapons that can be thrown. A teleporting weapon returns through the Astral Plane to the creature that threw it. It teleports into the throwing creature’s empty hand in the round following the round when it was thrown, just before that creature’s turn. It is therefore ready to use again on that turn.

Faint psychoportation; ML 5th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, psionic dimension door; Price +1 bonus.

You are now half way to becoming CAPTAIN MERICA'

Helldog

2012-02-08, 09:35 PM

I already mentioned Shield Sling.

Protoneiko

2012-02-11, 08:53 AM

Thanks for all the ideas guys. And Yes the Dm is allowing the sheilds to stack, and he's not going to dumb-down enemies. But even a intelligent enemy is going to fight back when someone is punching them in the face with a heavy shield, if they didn't then the DM is playing the dumb.

I already know the character is not going to be the greatest and killing everything on the battle field, haven't any of you guys played a bad character for fun before, Roleplaying as a bad character is far more fun then a person who can slay anything. And to me atleast D&D is all about making a fun character idea and just having fun with it.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-11, 02:46 PM

But even a intelligent enemy is going to fight back when someone is punching them in the face with a heavy shield, if they didn't then the DM is playing the dumb.

...I'd rather attack the lightly armored guy that just made you faster, then slowed down my allies, and take a glancing blow running past you.

Bovine Colonel

2012-02-11, 05:17 PM

Have you considered two-handing a heavy shield?

Venusaur

2012-02-11, 06:59 PM

I haven't seen it anywhere, but why not take vow of peace/vow of nonviolence from BoED? They aren't amazing, but they will buff your character since you already have this concept.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-11, 07:07 PM

I haven't seen it anywhere, but why not take vow of peace/vow of nonviolence from BoED? They aren't amazing, but they will buff your character since you already have this concept.

Shields deal bludgeoning damage, not nonlethal damage.

Helldog

2012-02-11, 07:17 PM

Shields deal bludgeoning damage, not nonlethal damage.
Subduing Strike (same book)?

Greenish

2012-02-11, 07:21 PM

There's a BoED feat, if I'm not mistaken, that lets you deal non-lethal damage without taking a penalty to your attack. Getting Merciful is probably a better choice in the long run, but if your DM allows retraining, you can make do with that until you have money for the enchantment.

There's also truncheon in BoED, a martial one-handed weapon that deals non-lethal damage by default. Making a shield mod that does the same (like spiked shield changes the damage type) might be something to ask your DM about.

If you were to dip into a class with Turn Undead, you could get more benefits from your (assumedly) high Cha with Divine feats and Devotion feats. Divine Shield, for example, lets you add your Cha to your shield bonus to AC (though it takes a standard to activate and only lasts for a minute).