Gate - Implosion ...Gate?

[torugo]

This far I thought RedCloak had used Gate to call the demons to kill resistance, implosion to fight them and now he uses a Gate again without time to sleep and ask for new spells.


IF he really used gate to call the demons against resistance, he just cast the 3rd 9 circle priest spell.

If he did not, we can get it gate is the 9 circle spell learned and implosion is the spell granted by the deity pick. Either way implosion is a power not a learned spell.


Thoughts?

[Ancalagon]

I think it just is again proof that Rich does not use the rules beyond very broad strokes.

Redcloak is "powerful enough, the details do not matter". Details here would be if he has 2 level 9 spells plus a domain slot or only one plus a domain slot.

[Gift Jeraff]

Multiple castings of Greater Planar Ally for the devils and/or bonus spell slots due to his Wisdom score. Sounds plausible. EDIT: Plus Redcloak has already demonstrated having the Destruction domain.

[Douglas]

Looking at the lineup, we saw (best guesses):
2 Horned Devils
7 Bearded Devils
1 Pit Fiend
1 Huge Elemental

A single Greater Planar Ally spell can get the Pit Fiend, and the Pit Fiend can then use his summon ability to get both of the Horned Devils. A few regular or Lesser (or a smaller number of Greater) Planar Ally spells can account for the Bearded Devils. The elemental only requires Summon Monster VII. This entire force can easily be accounted for by Redcloak's lower level spells with plenty of margin. No Gate is necessary for it, so Implosion plus a single Gate could be all of Redcloak's 9th level spells for the day.

[androkguz]

Looking at the lineup, we saw (best guesses):
2 Horned Devils
7 Bearded Devils
1 Pit Fiend
1 Huge Elemental

A single Greater Planar Ally spell can get the Pit Fiend, and the Pit Fiend can then use his summon ability to get both of the Horned Devils. A few regular or Lesser (or a smaller number of Greater) Planar Ally spells can account for the Bearded Devils. The elemental only requires Summon Monster VII. This entire force can easily be accounted for by Redcloak's lower level spells with plenty of margin. No Gate is necessary for it, so Implosion plus a single Gate could be all of Redcloak's 9th level spells for the day.

This is made more plausible by the fact that Redcloak paid those Devils. Planar allies ask for money or for a mission they would love.

So yeah, Gate is his 9th lvl spell (very good choice, I would only have prefered Miracle) and Implosion his domain spell, from the destruction domain. Btw, which is Redcloak's other domain?

[SaintRidley]

Btw, which is Redcloak's other domain?

Law. [tencharacters]

[Gullintanni]

So yeah, Gate is his 9th lvl spell (very good choice, I would only have prefered Miracle) and Implosion his domain spell, from the destruction domain. Btw, which is Redcloak's other domain?

A good analysis. It's worth mentioning that he may have one additional 9th based on his WIS score though.

[snikrept]

Funny that he prepared Gate without knowing he'd need to head to the Astral Plane today.

Unless his puzzlement about the astral fortress is also part of his clever act.

[Ancalagon]

If you like stuff like this, check out the Class and Level Geekery Thread(s).

[shadowkiller]

Funny that he prepared Gate without knowing he'd need to head to the Astral Plane today.

Unless his puzzlement about the astral fortress is also part of his clever act.

If my main goal of the day was to single handedly wipe out a resistance I would have gate prepared because a 2x your own caster level monster is really powerful.

[blazingshadow]

a pearl of power can also do the job

[Doug Lampert]

A good analysis. It's worth mentioning that he may have one additional 9th based on his WIS score though.

If he does not then he's more or less anti-optimized (not unheard of for the OotS and their opponents).

Say he had a starting wisdom of 15, is now level 17, and without the cloak is venerable (almost certainly at least that old).

15+4 (levels) +3 (age) +6 (item) =28

15 Wis is what he gets from bog standard elite array or from a pretty poor set of rolled abilities. Adding level boosts to wisdom is a non-brainer for a non-melee cleric. The item is one he could have made as early as level THREE if he had the money! And we know RC and X appreciate the value of crafting AND he has an artifact level item designed to boost clerics.

So he has a bonus spell.

[Dark Matter]

The other thing about the Planer Ally spells is they can last for one day per level. So he could have cast those yesterday and had his spell slots open for combat stuff.

[The MunchKING]

Say he had a starting wisdom of 15, is now level 17, and without the cloak is venerable (almost certainly at least that old).

But does he actually get aging bonuses if he doesn't actualy Age??

[lindorm]

Funny that he prepared Gate without knowing he'd need to head to the Astral Plane today.

Unless his puzzlement about the astral fortress is also part of his clever act.

Well, Xykon might have told him earlier to keep Gate at the ready. And we don't know what spell he was going to throw initially, it might have been something on the lines of Wind Walk or some other fast travel spell.

Anyways, the use of Gate and Xykon's obvious knowledge of it certainly puts a damper on the theories that RC has been leveling up in secret.

[Porthos]

This far I thought RedCloak had used Gate to call the demons to kill resistance, implosion to fight them and now he uses a Gate again without time to sleep and ask for new spells.


IF he really used gate to call the demons against resistance, he just cast the 3rd 9 circle priest spell.

If he did not, we can get it gate is the 9 circle spell learned and implosion is the spell granted by the deity pick. Either way implosion is a power not a learned spell.


Thoughts?

Since we never saw how he got the demons, he could have used a scroll.

[WowWeird]

But does he actually get aging bonuses if he doesn't actualy Age??
I assumed it's something like the Monk's Timeless Body ability. To wit;

...a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue...
Obviously, it isn't a perfect fit, as if I recall, Redcloak should be dead from old age at this point, and Timeless Body has the recipient still die of old age when their time is up.
On a completely speculative note, though, in SOD
Right-Eye accuses Redcloak of being robbed of perspective by the Crimson Mantle's lack of aging. While Right-Eye certainly was referring to the wisdom (not Wisdom) brought on by the prospect of one's own mortality, maaaaaaaaybe if you squint and tilt your head at a 37 degree angle on a full moon at the Cathedral of Cthulhu you can also see a chance that the Mantle does deny its owner aging bonuses to mental stats.
Meh. Either way, it's been amply demonstrated that there are more than a few ways Redcloak could have gotten all those demons and still cast two 9th-level spells.

[Skull the Troll]

But does he actually get aging bonuses if he doesn't actualy Age??

Why wouldn't he. the rationale behind getting a wisdom bonus as you get older is that you have accrued knowledge and experiences that add to your understanding of the world. Just because he doesn't turn grey and wrinkly doesn't mean he doesn't have 60+ years of experience under his belt.

[Steward]

It depends on how the magic works. I agree that in this case Redcloak is entitled to those bonuses, but theoretically you could have a magical object that not only freezes your body but your mind as well. You don't age, but you also don't mature either. Kind of like what happens to people in the Celestial realms. I don't think that this happened to Redcloak but something like that could be included as an effect.

[Douglas]

Why wouldn't he. the rationale behind getting a wisdom bonus as you get older is that you have accrued knowledge and experiences that add to your understanding of the world. Just because he doesn't turn grey and wrinkly doesn't mean he doesn't have 60+ years of experience under his belt.
But if that's the case, why do kobolds get the same bonus in a few years that elves take centuries to acquire?

The mental bonuses come at exactly the same points as the physical penalties regardless of how quickly those come, so it is entirely reasonable to conclude that they are both the result of physical maturation and development. The Timeless Body ability may seem to go against this, but it clearly isn't complete (or it would prevent death from old age) and could be interpreted as being specific to muscles and physical health related vital organs. The Crimson Mantle negates lifespan limits in addition to physical ability score penalties, so it's clearly more complete than Timeless Body and may (we honestly don't know) stop everything from aging including the brain.

[Porthos]

You don't age, but you also don't mature either. Kind of like what happens to people in the Celestial realms. I don't think that this happened to Redcloak but something like that could be included as an effect.

Interestingly enuf...

Spoilers for SoD

This is exactly the argument Right-Eye makes to Redcloak about how he is still stuck as the person he was who donned that cloak all those years ago.

[Douglas]

Interestingly enuf...

Spoilers for SoD

This is exactly the argument Right-Eye makes to Redcloak about how he is still stuck as the person he was who donned that cloak all those years ago.
It's far from proof, but that's pretty convincing evidence to me that the Crimson Mantle does indeed prevent the acquisition of mental bonuses for age. Given that, even with a +6 item he'd need an 18 base wisdom score to reach 28 for a 9th level bonus slot.

[RecklessFable]

Since we never saw how he got the demons, he could have used a scroll.

^This... makes the conversation a little ... moot. Not that anyone cares.

[WowWeird]

But if that's the case, why do kobolds get the same bonus in a few years that elves take centuries to acquire?

The mental bonuses come at exactly the same points as the physical penalties regardless of how quickly those come, so it is entirely reasonable to conclude that they are both the result of physical maturation and development. The Timeless Body ability may seem to go against this, but it clearly isn't complete (or it would prevent death from old age) and could be interpreted as being specific to muscles and physical health related vital organs. The Crimson Mantle negates lifespan limits in addition to physical ability score penalties, so it's clearly more complete than Timeless Body and may (we honestly don't know) stop everything from aging including the brain.
1. Porthos, I said that. I don't have SOD on me though- can you find the quote?
2.Douglas et al- Given the aforementioned SOD discussion that (not important enough to spoiler, methinks) mentions an immortal character as never having to grow up and face the world with the next generation in mind, perhaps the mental boosts are simply from growing more familiar with your own limitations, mortality, etc. This nicely explains the discrepancy in ages- as kobolds live less than humans, and humans live less than elves, and so on, the realization of a finite life (well, technically all sentient beings have THAT- maybe the acceptance of it? I'm really not sure) comes quicker for kobolds simply because in that lesser time, they've used up a greater percentage of all the time they can expect to have. With the Crimson Mantle, anything that is capable of taking the Mantle from Redcloak is presumably capable of and willing to killing him outright- thus, he will never have to deal with his own biological time-bomb, not least because of all the new and exciting ways he's found to gamble his life for the sake of the Plan.
Umm... so, long story short, we don't know about the age modifiers because we don't have the Crimson Mantle statted out. SOD presents a case that Redcloak is not gaining age bonuses to scores, but it's couched in non-statistical terms- to reuse a phrase, it's described as wisdom and intelligence, not Wisdom and Intelligence. Meanwhile, various RAW hold that Redcloak is getting his age bonuses, and the story makes it clear that Redcloak isn't taking physical score penalties. Now, ignoring my well-known incapability to shut up when I've said what's needed, should we get back on track here?

[WowWeird]

Also, if the Mantle is a divine artifact for the High Priest of a deity of at least intermediate standing, it should be easy to incorporate the aforementioned Wisodm bonus necessary, and much more besides. This assumes the Dark One wants his clerics to have high Wisdom, but how much of a stretch is that?

[AutomatedTeller]

It's far from proof, but that's pretty convincing evidence to me that the Crimson Mantle does indeed prevent the acquisition of mental bonuses for age. Given that, even with a +6 item he'd need an 18 base wisdom score to reach 28 for a 9th level bonus slot.

Of course, for all we know, the Crimson Mantle might grant extra spell slots for each level, or the ability to cast Gate once a day or at any time once you are able or any number of things that would make him casting Gate now trivial.

[Porthos]

1. Porthos, I said that. I don't have SOD on me though- can you find the quote?
2.Douglas et al- Given the aforementioned SOD discussion that (not important enough to spoiler, methinks)

Actually the quote is incredibly important IMO as it is an emotionally charged scene at the end of the book. As such, I will spoiler it and quote a brief exchange of it (to stay within Fair Use):

Right-eye: Brother, you may have had a lifetime, but you haven't had a life since the day you put on that cloak.
Right-eye: Life is about growing - growing older, growing wiser, growing closer to your loved ones. But you, you're frozen in time. You're the same angry kid who took some artifact off of your master's corpse that day.
Redcloak:Oh, so now you've gained some great insight on the universe by letting your body and mind deteriorate?
Right-eye: YES! When you're faced with your own mortality, you have no choice but to consider what's best for the next generation.

So, yeah, that's almost a textbook definition of saying: No Wisdom for simply aging.

ETA: Though it is probable that Rich included that scene (amongst others which I won't go into now) to try to show why the Redcloak of the early strips was in fact not someone who had accumulated a lifetime of wisdom.

OTOH, the online strips, especially the ones during and after the Battle for Azure City arc, IMO are in fact showing that Redcloak is accumulating that very wisdom that was alluded to in that spoiler block.

Though it might just be Redcloak choosing to add a point of Wisdom after going up the appropriate level. :smalltongue:

[WowWeird]

Actually the quote is incredibly important IMO as it is an emotionally charged scene at the end of the book. As such, I will spoiler it and quote a brief exchange of it (to stay within Fair Use):

Right-eye: Brother, you may have had a lifetime, but you haven't had a life since the day you put on that cloak.
Right-eye: Life is about growing - growing older, growing wiser, growing closer to your loved ones. But you, you're frozen in time. You're the same angry kid who took some artifact off of your master's corpse that day.
Redcloak:Oh, so now you've gained some great insight on the universe by letting your body and mind deteriorate?
Right-eye: YES! When you're faced with your own mortality, you have no choice but to consider what's best for the next generation.

So, yeah, that's almost a textbook definition of saying: No Wisdom for simply aging.
Thank you very much. Although, the counter-argument would be that the Dark One wouldn't design an artifact that robbed his High Priest of useful bonuses.
Then again, there's no evidence for anything the Crimson Mantle does except convey knowledge of the Plan (and possibly High Priest status, though the logistics of that are somewhat confusing and unimportant), and presumably at least one other benefit- but without knowledge of what else it can do, it's far too easy to ascribe anything that seems odd in OOTS to the unspecified powers of the Mantle, which will presumably never be statted out due to Rich's blanket refusal to stat out things to leave joke opportunities for later. Thus, no powers should be ascribed to the Mantle if we haven't seen them, thus rendering this entire diatribe completely pointless.
Yeah, remember when I mentioned my incapability to shut up? I wasn't joking. :smallwink:

[Porthos]

Thank you very much. Although, the counter-argument would be that the Dark One wouldn't design an artifact that robbed his High Priest of useful bonuses.

Quite the opposite, actually. In D&D, major artifacts are supposed to have undesirable side effects (this ideal might have been softened in later editions, but it was something that was definitely played up in 1e and 2e).

Stylistically it goes to the whole mythical idea that an artifact will give power, but at a price. Mechanically it's to make sure that people with artifacts don't run rampant all over the game. :smalltongue:

[WowWeird]

Quite the opposite, actually. In D&D, major artifacts are supposed to have undesirable side effects (this ideal might have been softened in later editions, but it was something that was definitely played up in 1e and 2e).

Stylistically it goes to the whole mythical idea that an artifact will give power, but at a price. Mechanically it's to make sure that people with artifacts don't run rampant all over the game. :smalltongue:

Oh yeah! I have a copy of the Second Edition DMG (where it mentions the limits all artifacts have), though I've never played a game of it. Just for reference, in 3.5, giving an artifact a drawback increases the number of beneficial powers as well- IIRC, it isn't actually necessary to have a penalty.

[hobo386]

My guesses:
1)Rich doesn't really care how he summoned the demons. He just did.
2)Greater Planar Ally
3-5)Redcloak gets bonus spells through the Cloak of the Crimson Mantle, a retardedly high wisdom, or another magic item.
6)Scrolls were involved.