Any Martial Classes that Benefit from Charisma? (Doesn't want to be a Paladin)

[Zovc]

Hey folks. Long time!

As the title implies, I'm looking for martial classes (Fighter-type, Full BAB encouraged) that benefit from Charisma. The only class I can think of is the Paladin, but I don't really want to play a Paladin.

I've been mulling for a while now and looking for hoops to jump through, but I can't seem to figure anything out.

I envisioned an adventurer in light armor who is a skilled fighter with a roguelike streak who spends most of his time trying to be a ladies' man. In terms of party roles, I'd like to serve primarily as the group's muscle and face, with perhaps a bit of dabbling in rogue-y things (bonus points for Use Magic Device).

Do I need to just suck it up and play a Paladin? I'm not too opposed to Lawful Good, but I quite dislike Detect Evil at-will. Divine Grace gives me a huge amount of Charisma synergy as does Lay on Hands. I just would like to be able to lie and do sneaky things, and I feel like being a Paladin would keep me from doing that. There's also the Paladin's MAD and focus on mounted combat, and even the Paladin of Freedom is a bit too zealously opposed to Law than I want to be.

[Psyren]

Marshal and (shudder) Hexblade come to mind. Binders benefit from Cha too, though they don't really need it.

[Human Paragon 3]

Hexblade is seconded.

Also, look at the combat pinache feat for more uses for charisma in combat.

[gkathellar]

Crusaders get some minor benefits from Charisma, although they can skip it if they need to.

Battle Dancers from Dragon Compendium get Cha to AC when unarmored.

[DrDeth]

The designer for Hexblade came up with a very nice but unofficial fix for his creations. Speaking of “shudder” the CW Samurai also gets a little benefit from CHA.

You also could play that alt rogue who gets fighter feats instead of SA. There’s also a CG paladin out there.

[Psyren]

The designer for Hexblade came up with a very nice but unofficial fix for his creations. Speaking of “shudder” the CW Samurai also gets a little benefit from CHA.

You also could play that alt rogue who gets fighter feats instead of SA. There’s also a CG paladin out there.

Link to Hexblade fix?

[dextercorvia]

Aren't the Knight's save dc's based on Charisma?

[Human Paragon 3]

Aren't the Knight's save dc's based on Charisma?

Yeah, but hexblade gets a lot more out of a high cha than knight.

[NeoSeraphi]

In addition to those already mentioned, swashbucklers (Complete Warrior). Though they get no class benefits from it, they have full BAB, d10 HD, and plenty of Charisma-based skills that work well for them.

Zhentarim Fighters (Champions of Valor web enhancement) are fantastic Charisma-based warriors who thrive on Intimidate checks. They're like CW samurai, except they don't suck nearly as bad. Their best benefits don't come until level 9 though.

[Gwendol]

Knight and Purple Dragon Knight have CHA based abilities. Zenth fighter sounds more like what you are after though?

[Big Fau]

Marshal and (shudder) Hexblade come to mind. Binders benefit from Cha too, though they don't really need it.

You shudder at the Hexblade, but not at the Marshal? At least the Hexblade's spell list has Polymorph; the Marshal isn't even 4 levels long!

[Lord Ruby34]

Have you considered making a melee bard?

[gallagher]

as soon as 7th level a well-built cleric becomes a well-built fighter with spells

[Zovc]

Marshal has a medium BAB, and focuses on leadership.
Hexblade can't be good aligned. (Tempted to ask DM about that. Also don't know how DM feels about 'unofficial' fixes.)
I'll look into the Crusader, I do like the idea of having maneuvers.
CW Samurai... heh...
Feat Rogue is actually looking appealing right now. I just need to figure out what to do with the feats and how to incorporate CHA into the character beyond skills. I'd also want to jump ship before I take a second hit to BAB. (After level 4.)
Knight is something I've considered, but haven't looked into. They don't get very much out of Charisma, do they?
Swashbuckler's an option, for sure. Although they are a weaker class, aren't they?
Zhentarim Fighter is neat in that it gives Fighter some more class features, but I don't know that it gives them enough to make the class enticing. Thug is also an interesting alteration.

Where is the "combat pinache" feat?

[Gwendol]

Knight challenges/day and especially test of mettle DC. Some later level abilities to, iirc. Depends on what you are going for I guess.

[Gwendol]

Knight challenges/day and especially test of mettle DC. Some later level abilities to, iirc. Depends on what you are going for I guess.

[deuxhero]

Use this!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732

All the base classes have been mentioned, but it also has feats, items and prcs that are relevant to you.

[Eldariel]

Hexblade's fix was something pretty minor:
The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life.
As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky
or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually
work in play.

Armored mages fall into the first category. Them seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed.

If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:

* Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage.
It does definitely help a ton though, especially Curse as a swift action.


Other than that, Crusader, or especially a Bardsader (Crusader/Bard using Inspire Courage) would probably be your best bet. Or one of the Paladin variants on SRD.

[Rubik]

Bardsader focused on Inspire Courage is a virtual whirlwind of death.

Also, what about an educated wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) build? Extremely Cha-focused, and with Practiced Manifester you can dip up to 4 class levels without TOO much trouble. Add some crusader if you like. Head into a psionic version of the jade phoenix mage (which is EEEEEASY to convert to psionics). You can also check out the slayer PrC in the SRD, and the ghostbreaker in Hyperconscious.

And telepath is a really good Int-based class with a heavy focus on Cha for skills, as well, which can do some really nice Diplomancy through powers alone.

[ericgrau]

Any martial class with leadership, a special mount, an army of crafters, etc. At level 6 you need cha 10. Level 11, cha 14. Level 16, cha 16. Level 20, cha 18. So a 12 or 14 is probably best with magic items to cover the rest. Even putting cheese aside, a special mount is an often overlooked but well supported application of leadership. Great way to fly too, and a flyby attack charger is quite powerful. When you reach a 5' hallway, you don't need to do anything b/c he can squeeze. Tighter spaces are less common though a little trouble.

[The-Mage-King]

Here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11335643&postcount=5). Simple build that works on Fear effects, min-maxing Iaijutsu Focus, and other charisma based shenanigans.


Well, if you count Binder as being "martial", which in this build it is, for the most part.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Seconded for the melee Bard.

If you want to get the most out of Swiftblade's abilities, consider this build:
Bard 1-7/Swiftblade 1-2 (advancing Bard)/Bard 8th (to meet the skill prereqs)/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade 3-10 (advancing Sublime Chord)/Sublime Chord 2nd

Gets +17 BAB by 20th level, as well as 8th-level spells (7 levels of Sublime Chord gets you one 8th-level spell per day) and the Swiftblade's Time Stop ability to use it with (making it the equivalent of Time Stop as a 9th-level spell). You basically get five iterative attacks (or two standard actions), full concealment from targeted spells and attacks, a speed boost, extra d6 of damage, Freedom of Movement, plus Song of Arcane Power/Inspire Courage +2 (more with optimization, etc)... Kind of hard to put down. :smallbiggrin:

[NinjaStylerobot]

Dashing swordsman :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

As far as melee bard, I'd port the Dervish Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer) from Pathfinder back to 3.5.

[Crasical]

Here's a silly thing from another thread.




There's a spell called Undersong in a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

Go Hexblade 3 for Mettle, a level of whatever you like, then a level of Warblade for the three save replacers. Now you can cut lightning, and a lot of fun Diamond Mind maneuvers are now based on your charisma/perform check.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Go Hexblade 3 for Mettle, a level of whatever you like, then a level of Warblade for the three save replacers. Now you can cut lightning, and a lot of fun Diamond Mind maneuvers are now based on your charisma/perform check.

You'd actually need three levels of Warblade with this build as-is, because four non-initiator classes is equal to two initiator levels (meaning your Warblade level at fifth would get you your third Initiator Level, for 2nd-level maneuvers, but you're two IL shy of 3rd-level maneuvers). Regardless, this idea remains absolutely awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Remember to get a Ring of Evasion (25k gold), so that you can, on a successful Reflex, Fortitude, or Will save, avoid any and all negative effects you would normally half with a successful save.

You could probably do part of this trick with the Swiftblade build mentioned above, if you could find a level to drop for a Warblade dip.

Could go:

Bard 7/Swiftblade 1/Warblade 1/Bard 8th/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade 2-10 (advancing Sublime Chord). Your Warblade dip happens at 9th level, so you can grap first-, second-, and third-level maneuvers and stances with your entry maneuvers (read: Moment of Perfect Mind at 1st, Action Before Thought at 2nd, Mind over Body at 3rd). If you make it a Swordsage dip, you could also grab other notable maneuvers, such as Insightful Strike. Everything else would have to happen through Martial Study/Stance, though.

[Rubik]

Here's a silly thing from another thread.



Go Hexblade 3 for Mettle, a level of whatever you like, then a level of Warblade for the three save replacers. Now you can cut lightning, and a lot of fun Diamond Mind maneuvers are now based on your charisma/perform check.I'd hit it.

[Crasical]

You'd actually need three levels of Warblade with this build as-is, because four non-initiator classes is equal to two initiator levels (meaning your Warblade level at fifth would get you your third Initiator Level, for 2nd-level maneuvers, but you're two IL shy of 3rd-level maneuvers). Regardless, this idea remains absolutely awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Well hell. Guess I'm not as clever as I thought, I hadn't noticed the Fort replacer was 3rd level maneuver.


I'd hit it.

Buh?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'd hit it.

You'd miss, thanks to Wall of Blades. :smallbiggrin:


Well hell. Guess I'm not as clever as I thought, I hadn't noticed the Fort replacer was 3rd level maneuver.

It's OK; if you took the three levels of Warblade, you would get five maneuvers (four from first and second, and the fifth from third), which would let you grab Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, and Mind over Body, which is a pretty awesome set of counters and such. Martial Study (Insightful Strike) at 9th level, or some such, would be nothing but a boon. :smallamused:

[Draz74]

Sounds like it's time for a Suel Archanamach.

Start with 6 levels of full-BAB classes. Pick and choose from the following:

2 or 3 levels of Duskblade
0, 2, or 4 levels of Paladin (obviously not what you'll pick)
0 or 1 levels of Crusader or Warblade
0, 3, or 4 levels of Hexblade
0 or 1 levels of Fighter

Then go Suel Archanamach 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Spellsword 1 / Dragon Disciple 4 to finish out the build.

Voila, 18/20 BAB, 6th-level spellcasting with a good Gishy spell list, LOTS of cool class features, LOTS of Charisma synergy, and (depending what base classes you started with) no alignment restrictions.

[ngilop]

here is a build for ya

Level by Level
1 - Crusader 1
2 - Crusader 1/ Knight 1
3 - Crusader 1/ Knight 2
4 - Crusader 1/ Knight 3
5 - Crusader 1/ Knight 4
6 - Crusader 2/ Knight 4
7 - Crusader 3/ Knight 4
8 - Crusader 4/ Knight 4
9 - Crusader 5/ Knight 4
10 - Crusader 6/ Knight 4
11 - Crusader 7/ Knight 4
12 - Crusader 8/ Knight 4
13 - Crusader 9/ Knight 4
14 - Crusader 10/ Knight 4
15 - Crusader 11/ Knight 4
16 - Crusader 12/ Knight 4
17 - Crusader 13/ Knight 4
18 - Crusader 14/ Knight 4
19 - Crusader 15/ Knight 4
20 - Crusader 16/ Knight 4

Final stats
BAB: +20
Base Fort/Ref/Will: +11/+6/+9
Initiator Level: 18 (Can ready 6 maneuvers at a time.)

How to Use
Use the Knight's Test of Mettle ability to force some or all opponents to target you. Use your healing maneuvers to sustain you in combat, taking care to hinder the mobility of those opponents that try to break through your defensive line with movement-inhibiting maneuvers and the Knight's Bulwark of Defense ability.

[Rubik]

Buh?The post I was quoting had 'slice through every effect that allows a save with your weapon' as a build.

ie, "I hit it" as a strategy.

And now it's not funny anymore.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Could go:

Bard 7/Swiftblade 1/Warblade 1/Bard 8th/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade 2-10 (advancing Sublime Chord). Your Warblade dip happens at 9th level, so you can grap first-, second-, and third-level maneuvers and stances with your entry maneuvers (read: Moment of Perfect Mind at 1st, Action Before Thought at 2nd, Mind over Body at 3rd). If you make it a Swordsage dip, you could also grab other notable maneuvers, such as Insightful Strike. Everything else would have to happen through Martial Study/Stance, though.As a minor correction, a martial adept can only take a first level stance with their first level of Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader, regardless of their initiator level.

Quoth the Warblade class description (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2):

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to warblades.The other two say the same thing, but aren't free for quoting online.

This doesn't matter too much if you're mainly looking for the Diamond Mind save-replaceing counters, but it's still worth noting.

[gorfnab]

Dragon Shaman benefits from a high Cha and can be okay in melee.

[Con_Brio1993]

Marshal and (shudder) Hexblade come to mind. Binders benefit from Cha too, though they don't really need it.

I'd say they really do need it.

1. It determines their binding check. Unless you want all those roleplaying restrictions it is worth passing the check.

2. It determines the DC of all their Su abilities.

[Seerow]

I wasn't aware of that spell that lets you replace Concentrate with Perform. That sounds incredible and now I want to try it. If only I could find a way to get diamond mind on Crusader instead...

[Zaq]

I wasn't aware of that spell that lets you replace Concentrate with Perform. That sounds incredible and now I want to try it. If only I could find a way to get diamond mind on Crusader instead...

Eternal Blade?

[Coidzor]

As far as melee bard, I'd port the Dervish Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer) from Pathfinder back to 3.5.

Now would that end up with 3x or 4x inspire courage?

[Venger]

Hey folks. Long time!

As the title implies, I'm looking for martial classes (Fighter-type, Full BAB encouraged) that benefit from Charisma. The only class I can think of is the Paladin, but I don't really want to play a Paladin.

I've been mulling for a while now and looking for hoops to jump through, but I can't seem to figure anything out.

I envisioned an adventurer in light armor who is a skilled fighter with a roguelike streak who spends most of his time trying to be a ladies' man. In terms of party roles, I'd like to serve primarily as the group's muscle and face, with perhaps a bit of dabbling in rogue-y things (bonus points for Use Magic Device).

Do I need to just suck it up and play a Paladin? I'm not too opposed to Lawful Good, but I quite dislike Detect Evil at-will. Divine Grace gives me a huge amount of Charisma synergy as does Lay on Hands. I just would like to be able to lie and do sneaky things, and I feel like being a Paladin would keep me from doing that. There's also the Paladin's MAD and focus on mounted combat, and even the Paladin of Freedom is a bit too zealously opposed to Law than I want to be.

I've got a couple suggestions:

knight 5/sorcerer1/ abjurant champion 5/ spellsword 9

19/20 base attack, 11th lvl sorcerer spells with a CL of 19 thanks to abjurant champion and an AC that will make your DM cry. this gives you a reason to pump cha and get something out of it (get that mod high enough and you don't need skill ranks.)