[PF] Monk Vs Unarmed Fighter Archetype

[CIDE]

Which would be the better class to begin building off of for unarmed builds in PF?

[Drelua]

Don't use the Unarmed Fighter archetype. The Brawler makes a much better unarmed fighter, especially if your DM lets you make a Dungeoncrasher even though it's 3.5. It's kinda sad that they both come from the same book. I'm not sure if a Brawler or Monk would be better, but I know that even with a d3, the brawler does about as much damage as a monk thanks to the increased weapon training damage and Gloves of Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling) for an extra +2 attack and damage. It also gives you decent battlefield control options, although it's a shame that most of it's class features don't work with reach weapons.

[Curious]

Monk. Not vanilla monk, a Hungry Ghost Qinngong Monk. Use Qinngong to swap out crappy class abilities like Slow Fall and Tongue of the Sun and Moon for Gaseous Form and Cold Ice Strike.

[Novawurmson]

If you're feeling fancy, Master of Many Styles+Qinggong (and even Hungry Ghost on top of it).

[Ravens_cry]

I want to try Tetori, grappling the untrappable (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori). Might also try the "smear myself in poison/minor creation: black lotus extract" trick higher levels.
While other archetypes can be better blasters, this is a real game changer in my opinion as the game basically assumes freedom of movement or other grappling immunities/negations past a certain level. Being able to say "Nope" to a caster when they try to Dimension Door out of your grasp looks to be a heartening experience. Jawbreaker and other UC feats look like they only add to making this a real caster smasher archetype as far as anything can be that isn't also a caster.

[olentu]

I want to try Tetori, grappling the untrappable (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori). Might also try the "smear myself in poison/minor creation: black lotus extract" trick higher levels.
While other archetypes can be better blasters, this is a real game changer in my opinion as the game basically assumes freedom of movement or other grappling immunities/negations past a certain level. Being able to say "Nope" to a caster when they try to Dimension Door out of your grasp looks to be a heartening experience. Jawbreaker and other UC feats look like they only add to making this a real caster smasher archetype as far as anything can be that isn't also a caster.

My that inescapable grasp ability is written rather strangely.

[Ravens_cry]

My that inescapable grasp ability is written rather strangely.
Just a little, but it potentially makes late game grappling viable against those most susceptible outside of magic, 1/2 BAB characters.

[Novawurmson]

Jawbreaker

::squeal::



Jawbreaker (Combat)
You deliver a powerful strike to the mouth, breaking teeth and bone.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Heal 6 ranks.
Benefit: When you make a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent that is grappled, helpless, or stunned, instead of imparting any other Stunning Fist effect, you can cripple that opponent's mouth, dealing normal unarmed strike damage and 1d4 points of bleed damage. Until the bleed damage ends, the target is unable to use its mouth to attack, speak clearly, and employ verbal spell components. A creature that is immune to critical hits or that has no discernible mouth is immune to the effects of this feat.

Is that not the best mixture of crunch and fluff you have ever read?

Unless it's the rest of its feat chain, including Neckbreaker:



With a quick jerk, you snap an enemy's neck.
Prerequisites: Bonebreaker, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Jawbreaker, Stunning Fist, Heal 12 ranks.
Benefit: If you have an opponent your size or smaller helpless or pinned, after you initiate or maintain a grapple, you can make a Stunning Fist attempt at a –5 penalty on the attack roll. If you succeed, you wrench that opponent's neck, dealing 2d6 Strength or Dexterity damage. If the targeted ability score is reduced to 0, any remaining damage is dealt to that opponent's Constitution score. A creature that is immune to critical hits or that has no discernible head and neck is immune to the effects of this feat.

What's that? The Wizard only had 7 Strength? Well, his Stephen Hawking impressions are about to get a lot better...

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, ever wanted to say shut up to that pansy little wizard?
Now you can, literally.

[olentu]

Just a little, but it potentially makes late game grappling viable against those most susceptible in their unmagiced form, 1/2 BAB characters.

Well I suppose they at least got the basic idea across.

[NeoSeraphi]

Meh. Pathfinder didn't even make Stunning Fist more fighter-accessible. I just want to punch people in the face so hard that they can't get back up! Why do I have to be a monk to do that?

[Novawurmson]

Meh. Pathfinder didn't even make Stunning Fist more fighter-accessible. I just want to punch people in the face so hard that they can't get back up! Why do I have to be a monk to do that?

The Unarmed variant Soulknife should be able to do this in the next release of Psionics Expanded. Take Weapon Special and Toppling Strike bladeskills. Standard action: Punch someone in the face so hard they fall over.

[Krazzman]

Why do I have to be a monk to do that?

Because Monks became awesome with UC! :D

[Bhaakon]

I just want to punch people in the face so hard that they can't get back up! Why do I have to be a monk to do that?

The secret of stunning fist isn't punching hard, it's punching wisely.

[stack]

Punching so hard they can't move is wise.

[grarrrg]

...I'm not sure if a Brawler or Monk would be better, but I know that...

Do both.
Take Brawler Fighter to level 3 for the +1 Attack, +3 Damage (or to level 4 to snag Weapon Specialization), and then go Monk from there.

[NeoSeraphi]

The secret of stunning fist isn't punching hard, it's punching wisely.

Okay, so why can't I have a fighter who is just as wise as a monk? Wisdom isn't a class feature, it's an ability score.

[Kaeso]

WOAH WOAH WOAH!!

Hold on there people.
Is the monk actually good in Pathfinder?

[NeoSeraphi]

WOAH WOAH WOAH!!

Hold on there people.
Is the monk actually good in Pathfinder?

It's definitely better. Not necessarily good, but better. And if you want to play an unarmed fighter, there are really only two options anyway, monk or fighter.

[gkathellar]

WOAH WOAH WOAH!!

Hold on there people.
Is the monk actually good in Pathfinder?

Specific Monk builds are reasonably good in PF. Otherwise, the answer is a definitive no.

[Gullintanni]

WOAH WOAH WOAH!!

Hold on there people.
Is the monk actually good in Pathfinder?

The answer to this is a mixed bag. Vanilla? No. They're still MAD as heck. Archetypes + UC + Guided Brass Knuckles? Yeah, they're pretty decent. Solid Tier 4.

[Kaeso]

The answer to this is a mixed bag. Vanilla? No. They're still MAD as heck. Archetypes + UC + Guided Brass Knuckles? Yeah, they're pretty decent. Solid Tier 4.

Tier 4 you say? Hmm, I guess that's halfway decent.
I might have to check PF out if I can find the time.

[Gullintanni]

Tier 4 you say? Hmm, I guess that's halfway decent.
I might have to check PF out if I can find the time.

Everything you need can be found on PFSRD. You're looking for the following:

Hungry Ghost Archetype (Works well with either Zen Archer or Qinggong) - From Advanced Players Guide
Zen Archer Arcehtype (For Ranged Monks) - From Advanced Players Guide
Qinggong Archetype (For Melee Monks) - From Ultimate Magic

Master of Many Styles Archetype - From Ultimate Combat (take this only when it's compatible with the archetypes above.
Sensei Archetype - From Ultimate Combat (take this only when it's compatible with the archetypes above)

Brass Knuckles - From Advanced Players Guide (Enchantable weapons that allow you to use your unarmed damage)

Guided Enhancement - From PFSRD (Use Wis instead of Str for Atk/Damage, put this on Brass Knuckles, or your bow if you're using Zen Archery)

The Deadly Aim feat is also useful for a Zen Archer. It's basically Power Attack for bows.

Anyway, follow these rules and you're guaranteed a competent Monk. Finally :smallamused:

Also worth noting is that the Tetori Archetype makes you a god of Grappling. I have no experience with it, so use at your own risk.

[Krazzman]

Hungry Ghost Archetype (Works well with either Zen Archer or Qinggong) -

Sadly...no, Zen Archer can only be Combined with Qinggong, IF you have a nice DM and not a rules lawyer. Since Hungry Ghost and Zen Archer trade Stunning Fist at First level. Plus Qinggong and Zen Archer both affect the Tongues thingie.

Furthermore Guided could be vetoed by your dm cause it's from paizo for the pathfinder setting but the module it was printed in is for 3.5...

[Cieyrin]

::squeal::



Is that not the best mixture of crunch and fluff you have ever read?

Unless it's the rest of its feat chain, including Neckbreaker:



What's that? The Wizard only had 7 Strength? Well, his Stephen Hawking impressions are about to get a lot better...

Tetori's feat list got changed, since it got printed with nonexistent feats. They get Stunning Pin at 2nd, Chokehold at 14th and Neckbreaker at 18th. Chokehold and Neckbreaker come way late in my opinion (you could have Chokehold at 5th, Neckbreaker at 12th or 13th) but you get them automatically, so I guess I can't complain too much about that.


It's definitely better. Not necessarily good, but better. And if you want to play an unarmed fighter, there are really only two options anyway, monk or fighter.

Barbarians, especially with the Brutal Pugilist and Drunken Brute archetypes, can work fairly well as unarmed brawlers as well. Working together, they work surprisingly well to emulate the angry drunk that's breaking furniture and people that just won't stop.

EDIT:
Sadly...no, Zen Archer can only be Combined with Qinggong, IF you have a nice DM and not a rules lawyer. Since Hungry Ghost and Zen Archer trade Stunning Fist at First level. Plus Qinggong and Zen Archer both affect the Tongues thingie.

Furthermore Guided could be vetoed by your dm cause it's from paizo for the pathfinder setting but the module it was printed in is for 3.5...

Qinggong doesn't require you to replace all the features that are available to be replaced, it gives you the option to do so. When I wrote up the Archetype Combo list, I discovered you could even combine Qinggong with Martial Artist, despite the fact they have no Ki, so Qinggong is truly compatible with any Monk archetype available.

[stack]

I wish the would have made archetype stacking easier. So many of the monks seem to have trivial late-game abilities replaced, making them incompatible.

[Gullintanni]

Sadly...no, Zen Archer can only be Combined with Qinggong, IF you have a nice DM and not a rules lawyer. Since Hungry Ghost and Zen Archer trade Stunning Fist at First level. Plus Qinggong and Zen Archer both affect the Tongues thingie.

Furthermore Guided could be vetoed by your dm cause it's from paizo for the pathfinder setting but the module it was printed in is for 3.5...

Qinggongs trade ins are mostly optional. You don't have to trade away Tongue of the Sun and Moon. If you don't you can combine both Archetypes.

Re: Zen Archer + Hungry Ghost, I believe you're correct, though, I would permit a Monk to trade away Stunning Fist with Zen Archer, then take Stunning Fist as their 1st level feat, and trade it away for the Hungry Ghost archetype. There's certainly no incentive to avoid doing so from a game balance perspective. You just wouldn't get a feat choice at first level.

As for Guided, yes, it could be vetoed, but there's no sane reason to do so, unless you belong to the school of thought that suggests Melee shouldn't have nice things. Monk's need the help. Paizo gave them the help they needed. The Adventure Path is PFRPG content as of August 2009. Despite lack of an official conversion for pre-2009 material, as I said, there's no sane reason to limit access. You're free to rule differently in your game though.

[grarrrg]

Tier 4 you say? Hmm, I guess that's halfway decent.
I might have to check PF out if I can find the time.

Zen Archer Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) is arguably the best Archery class. (arguably)
TONS of bonus feats (all useful)
You can Flurry with your Bow, and Flurry in PF uses your Monk level as your Bab for Flurries (you cannot Rapid Shot with Flurry, but that's ok, saves you a feat or two)
You 'almost' become SAD:
Str is helpful for Composite Bows, but not necessary
Dex only needs to be 13 to qualify for the feats you DON'T get for free (Improved Precise Shot (Dex 19) can be picked up as your 6th level feat)
Con is always handy
Int > bleh
Wis gives to-hit and AC, it basically become Dex-minus-Initiative
Cha > DUMP!

[Gullintanni]

Zen Archer Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) is arguably the best Archery class. (arguably)
TONS of bonus feats (all useful)
You can Flurry with your Bow, and Flurry in PF uses your Monk level as your Bab for Flurries (you cannot Rapid Shot with Flurry, but that's ok, saves you a feat or two)
You 'almost' become SAD:
Str is helpful for Composite Bows, but not necessary
Dex only needs to be 13 to qualify for the feats you DON'T get for free (Improved Precise Shot (Dex 19) can be picked up as your 6th level feat)
Con is always handy
Int > bleh
Wis gives to-hit and AC, it basically become Dex-minus-Initiative
Cha > DUMP!

Eh, a Cleric with a Guided Bow does the job just as well (if not better) and they're still Clerics...but at this point you're comparing a T1 to a T4. Expecting the T4 to come out ahead is illogical.

That said, I would agree that the best non-caster archer in the game is probably a Zen Archery Monk.

[gourdcaptain]

As for Guided, yes, it could be vetoed, but there's no sane reason to do so, unless you belong to the school of thought that suggests Melee shouldn't have nice things. Monk's need the help. Paizo gave them the help they needed. The Adventure Path is PFRPG content as of August 2009. Despite lack of an official conversion for pre-2009 material, as I said, there's no sane reason to limit access. You're free to rule differently in your game though.

If Guided is banned, an almost as good solution is Agile from Pathfinder Society Field Guide - which is a +1 enchantment that gives dex to damage with finessable weapons (capped at Dex, two handed weapons do not get the 1.5 multiplier with this). Pick up Weapon Finesse and you can at least not bother with Str at all.

[Cieyrin]

I wish the would have made archetype stacking easier. So many of the monks seem to have trivial late-game abilities replaced, making them incompatible.

That's why I wrote the Archetype Combo list page. Check the sig and enjoy! :smallwink:

[Benly]

Eh, a Cleric with a Guided Bow does the job just as well (if not better) and they're still Clerics...but at this point you're comparing a T1 to a T4. Expecting the T4 to come out ahead is illogical.

That said, I would agree that the best non-caster archer in the game is probably a Zen Archery Monk.

I would suspect that the monk actually comes out slightly ahead if you are looking only at pure arrow-shooting ability - she gets a fairly large number of to-hit rerolls per day, opportunity shot if you happen to care about that, and gets the necessary feats as bonus feats fairly early (honestly, I'm not sure there are enough worthwhile archery feats for it to make a difference in later play, but at least she can have everything put together for archery considerably earlier in her career.)

However, that's looking only at pure archery; obviously, for overall utility and character effectiveness, the full spellcasting and other benefits the cleric gets outweigh her lagging behind a bit on the bow-shooting part.

[Gullintanni]

I would suspect that the monk actually comes out slightly ahead if you are looking only at pure arrow-shooting ability - she gets a fairly large number of to-hit rerolls per day, opportunity shot if you happen to care about that, and gets the necessary feats as bonus feats fairly early (honestly, I'm not sure there are enough worthwhile archery feats for it to make a difference in later play, but at least she can have everything put together for archery considerably earlier in her career.)

However, that's looking only at pure archery; obviously, for overall utility and character effectiveness, the full spellcasting and other benefits the cleric gets outweigh her lagging behind a bit on the bow-shooting part.

I'm not actually sure. The Monk, I agree, gets more attacks and juicy Feats, but the Cleric can buff their attacks into the stratosphere, combining size increases, luck modifiers, possibly sacred modifiers etc.

I haven't crunched the numbers and I'm not sure who'd come out ahead, but I look at it as the Monk firing arrows that are as effective as arrows vs. the Cleric firing arrows that are as effective as ballista bolts.

I'd wager it's pretty close either way. One thing to consider is that PF characters get more feats out of the box than 3.5 characters, so the Cleric may not have as hard a time keeping up as one might think. Like I said, probably pretty close on the pure archery side of things.


If Guided is banned, an almost as good solution is Agile from Pathfinder Society Field Guide - which is a +1 enchantment that gives dex to damage with finessable weapons (capped at Dex, two handed weapons do not get the 1.5 multiplier with this). Pick up Weapon Finesse and you can at least not bother with Str at all.

Works for Melee, at the very least.

[Benly]

I'm not actually sure. The Monk, I agree, gets more attacks and juicy Feats, but the Cleric can buff their attacks into the stratosphere, combining size increases, luck modifiers, possibly sacred modifiers etc.

I haven't crunched the numbers and I'm not sure who'd come out ahead, but I look at it as the Monk firing arrows that are as effective as arrows vs. the Cleric firing arrows that are as effective as ballista bolts.

I'm not sure about that - the cleric's ability to combat self-buff was cut down fairly significantly going from 3.5 to PF, and without Persistent nonsense piling up buffs is going to have a fairly significant action cost.


I'd wager it's pretty close either way. One thing to consider is that PF characters get more feats out of the box than 3.5 characters, so the Cleric may not have as hard a time keeping up as one might think. Like I said, probably pretty close on the pure archery side of things.

At higher levels, yeah, there aren't really enough archery feats that the extra feats are going to change that. Even with PF's accelerated feat progression, though, a cleric is going to be much slower getting to the full archery build.

The zen archer will have, just from bonus feats and class features, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, flurry of blows replacing Rapid Shot, and Point Blank Master all by level 6, leaving her actual feats free to grab, say, Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots (although qualifying for Clustered Shots at 6 depends on a certain reading of rules clarifications) and have picks left over. Also Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization just for the heck of it.

Leaving aside WF/WS (because the cleric wouldn't be taking those), that's still seven feats, more than the cleric's entire allotment at that level, some of which the cleric won't qualify for yet anyway due to BAB or other requirements. PF feat progression reduces the burden of building up a combat style but doesn't trivialize it.

Of course, the other problem is that by the time the cleric qualifies for all those, she may (as a full caster) be wondering what she's doing screwing around ploinking arrows at people - but when it is arrow-ploinking that you want, the zen archer is better at that specifically.

[Gullintanni]

I'm not sure about that - the cleric's ability to combat self-buff was cut down fairly significantly going from 3.5 to PF, and without Persistent nonsense piling up buffs is going to have a fairly significant action cost.


You'd be surprised. Domains can grant you the ability to cast Enlarge Person (which can be made permanent), Heroism and Greater Heroism, which last 10min/level and 1min/level respectively. Divine Power is only one round of buffing.

Still, I'm not sure the Cleric comes out ahead. Like I said, I haven't crunched the numbers. That said, one thing worth noting is that with the bonuses to hit from the above, the Cleric is probably going to hit more often than the Monk.

[Benly]

You'd be surprised. Domains can grant you the ability to cast Enlarge Person (which can be made permanent), Heroism and Greater Heroism, which last 10min/level and 1min/level respectively. Divine Power is only one round of buffing.

Still, I'm not sure the Cleric comes out ahead. Like I said, I haven't crunched the numbers. That said, one thing worth noting is that with the bonuses to hit from the above, the Cleric is probably going to hit more often than the Monk.

Enlarge Person gives you a penalty to hit, not a bonus. In melee this is canceled by the Strength penalty, but with an archer that's not the case. Further, you need to choose between having a composite bow that suits your Enlarged strength (in which case you take a penalty to hit when not enlarged) or your normal strength (in which case Enlarge's bonus doesn't help you). If you have it Permanencied that's not an issue, but getting that done is about equally easy for a monk or cleric so it doesn't really affect the argument. Personally, I wouldn't say it's worth it for an archer anyway.

Heroism/Greater Heroism is pretty good, though. Heroism will keep the cleric slightly ahead on accuracy until level 9 (level 13 if the cleric burns a feat on Weapon Focus, but I don't think you'd argue that most characters would do that - the zen archer gets it as a bonus, though, so it's there.) Greater Heroism is kind of more fiddly to have precast, since its duration isn't long enough to Extend it at the start of a dungeon like Heroism is, but it'll keep you ahead on accuracy all the way to level 16. So, yes, with Heroism and Greater Heroism prebuffed, and assuming the cleric doesn't use Rapid Shot (-2 to hit on all attacks that round) the cleric is slightly more accurate than the Zen Archer.

..of course, then the Zen Archer has her rerolls, and noticeably more attacks per round. So there's that. Divine Power will catch the cleric up, but gives the Zen Archer a several-arrow head start.

Edit: Actually, Enlarge Person might be worth it for the zen archer if she plans to use her ki arrows, but that's mostly for the novelty of having a rain of arrows with each individual arrow having a higher base damage than a ballista bolt.

[Deepbluediver]

Meh. Pathfinder didn't even make Stunning Fist more fighter-accessible. I just want to punch people in the face so hard that they can't get back up! Why do I have to be a monk to do that?

I think cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/article_19654_6-painful-things-nobody-tells-you-about-fighting.html#13287321903161&{"evt":"loaded"}) has done several articles now that bring up how punching some one in the face is a lot harder/more dangerous than people think/Hollywood makes it look.
Attacking some one barehanded without very rigorous and specific training is likely to just get you broken fingers or a broken wrist, providing you can even overcome the mental barriers most people (who aren't complete sociopaths) have against beating some one to death with your fists.

The reason that fighters, rogues, and all the rest use swords/axes/bows/glaive-guisarme-glaives, etc etc etc is that most people don't want to spend 10 years punching trees in order to develop the kind of bone structure and skin-density that you need to regularly smack people around while unarmed.


Edit: oops, I'm sorry, I seem to have spilled my realism into your fantasy, again. :smalltongue:

[NeoSeraphi]

I think cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/article_19654_6-painful-things-nobody-tells-you-about-fighting.html#13287321903161&{"evt":"loaded"}) has done several articles now that bring up how punching some one in the face is a lot harder/more dangerous than people think/Hollywood makes it look.
Attacking some one barehanded without very rigorous and specific training is likely to just get you broken fingers or a broken wrist, providing you can even overcome the mental barriers most people (who aren't complete sociopaths) have against beating some one to death with your fists.

The reason that fighters, rogues, and all the rest use swords/axes/bows/glaive-guisarme-glaives, etc etc etc is that most people don't want to spend 10 years punching trees in order to develop the kind of bone structure and skin-density that you need to regularly smack people around while unarmed.


Edit: oops, I'm sorry, I seem to have spilled my realism into your fantasy, again. :smalltongue:

Yeah, but then why doesn't the unarmed fighter archetype at least get it? Clearly, he has spent years training in unarmed combat alone.

And what about boxing? Boxing is a good example of a group of people who spend time practicing and perfecting physical attacks with their fists without any religious overtones or need/desire for enlightenment, aesthetics, or wisdom.

[Benly]

The reason that fighters, rogues, and all the rest use swords/axes/bows/glaive-guisarme-glaives, etc etc etc is that most people don't want to spend 10 years punching trees in order to develop the kind of bone structure and skin-density that you need to regularly smack people around while unarmed.

If you are serious about fighting and not accidentally injuring yourself you should use a realistic weapon like a spiked chain.

[Krazzman]

Additionally Enlarge Person does NOTHING to your damage in ranged combat.

[Deepbluediver]

My original reply was equal parts serious and silly, so please keep that in mind as I try to explain myself.


And what about boxing? Boxing is a good example of a group of people who spend time practicing and perfecting physical attacks with their fists without any religious overtones or need/desire for enlightenment, aesthetics, or wisdom.

There is a reason that boxing is a "sport" and fighting is, well, fighting. Boxing has lots of rules about how you can't kick, bite, elbow people in the face, punch certain areas and how everyone wears these nice fluffy glvoes that reduce everything to non-lethal damage.
Comparing boxing (at least in the modern sense, which is what I assume you mean) to combat is like saying "those paintball players would make excellent marines; recruit them for the army immediately!".


Yeah, but then why doesn't the unarmed fighter archetype at least get it? Clearly, he has spent years training in unarmed combat alone.
Honestly, I don't know. The only possible answer I can think of is that WotC eventually realized that the monk is so woefully underpowered that the only reason anyone would ever take any ranks in the class is for the bonus feats in the first couple of levels, and they issued a moratorium on any class or archetype ever negating that incentive by providing the same benefit.
So, the Unarmed Fighter archetype is (I think) supposed to be LIKE a monk, not actually become monk.


Yeah, okay, I'm really stretching here, I admit it. Sometimes things just don't make sense; that's why god gave us the Homebrew forum.

[Benly]

Additionally Enlarge Person does NOTHING to your damage in ranged combat.

This is not quite true, since the enlarged bow will use a larger damage die. That's only a +1 average damage per hit, though.

With the zen archer's ki arrow ability, which replaces the arrow's damage with her unarmed strike damage, Enlarge Person could actually lead to a fairly substantial damage boost, but it would cost ki points each round she wanted to maintain it.

[Frozen_Feet]

...how everyone wears these nice fluffy glvoes that reduce everything to non-lethal damage...

This is actually false. People hit harder with gloves on, since they don't have to be as careful about their knuckles breaking. I've heard it claimed that before gloves were mandatory, injuries in boxing were more common but actual deaths were nil - when gloves became mandatory, small injuries became rarer, but people started dropping in the ring due to more severe concussions and the like.

EDIT: Also, gloves are heavy, leading to non-trivial increase in impact energy of punches.

[Deepbluediver]

This is actually false. People hit harder with gloves on, since they don't have to be as careful about their knuckles breaking. I've heard it claimed that before gloves were mandatory, injuries in boxing were more common but actual deaths were nil - when gloves became mandatory, small injuries became rarer, but people started dropping in the ring due to more severe concussions and the like.

EDIT: Also, gloves are heavy, leading to non-trivial increase in impact energy of punches.

The way I heard it, before the use of heavily padded gloves people tended to avoid headshots because they would break their fingers on some one's skull, which is exceedingly solid, since it has to protect the brain. Once gloves came into use, people took more headshots, and the instance of consussions went up. Remember though, that a concussion is usually an impact injury, and while they can cause serious medical issues or fatalities (especially repeated consussions) you rarely need the type of lethal damage D&D implies to cause them.

Unless you are running an EXCEEDINGLY realistic game, where you are tracking every shot as an aimed shot and rolling to see when/if a person gets realistic injuries, this rapidly gets outside of what most people want.

If you really want to have a debate over boxing gloves, I'd be willing to compromise and say that they deal more damage overall (like 1d4 or 1d6 instead of 1d3) provided it's all non-lethal damage, sort of like a sap.

However, we rapidly seem to be sliding off topic here, so let's try and bring things back on course. If you want to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes as a non-monk, how do you think something like brass-knuckles (or studded gloves) would work in game?
That's a kind of item that would probably not count as wielding a weapon, so it's fine for you brawler or unarmed warrior, but could let you deal lethal damage without dipping monk or taking the improved unarmed strike feat. I don't recall seeing them statted up anywhere though, at least not in core; anyone know of which splatbooks I should start looking in?
Also, once you have an item to work with, I think it would be easy to modify it (either via magic or crafting) to do something special, like increasing you ability to make Stunning Fist strikes.


Edit: Also, the more I think about it, the more an unarmed fighter starts to look a little ridiculous to me. I don't really see much going for it except that it allows you to play a monk without the allignment-restrictions, and maybe different fluff.

[Gullintanni]

Additionally Enlarge Person does NOTHING to your damage in ranged combat.

+2 Strength Modifier and Composite Bow. It also increases the size of the weapon.

Greater Heroism is +4/hit and at level 20, when extended, lasts for 400 rounds, or 40 minutes. This duration also assumes no caster level boosting. Divine Power is an additional +6/hit. Together they also add 10 to damage.

On top of the Clerics BAB, that brings us up to +25, +Wis, +Enhancement Bonus to hit. A Cleric may also use Greater Magic Weapon, which lasts 2 hours per level when extended, up to 40 hours. While this doesn't do anything for accuracy and damage, it does mean that the Cleric can cram more enhancements onto their bow than the Monk. Not sure how meaningful that is in PF. Not sure how many enhancements are worth taking, but it still means the Cleric's going to have a better bow.

Quickened Divine Power also obviates the Divine Power-Action Economy problem, so it should always be in play.

[Krazzman]

+2 Strength Modifier and Composite Bow. It also increases the size of the weapon.


Luz nope :D

See here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person).


"Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Medium/Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size."

Additionally it doesn't affect a bow if you are enlarged if you have set it on your normal strength. Else...jeah else you want these buffs to be there all the time or you get another penality to hit so it's either a mali for being to weak or a mali for being greater.

[Gullintanni]

Luz nope :D

See here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person).

Which, of course, is why you carry around Large sized arrows to fire from your now Large sized bow. Not that difficult to plan for I would think.

In any case, sorry for the further de-rail...back on topic.

[jmelesky]

Edit: Also, the more I think about it, the more an unarmed fighter starts to look a little ridiculous to me. I don't really see much going for it except that it allows you to play a monk without the allignment-restrictions, and maybe different fluff.

In which case, you might be better off considering the Martial Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/martial-artist) monk archetype.

[Deepbluediver]

Which, of course, is why you carry around Large sized arrows to fire from your now Large sized bow. Not that difficult to plan for I would think.

Ok, I realize that the "as soon as they leave your person" clause is in there to stop players from abusing things like making 1 pound of gold into 1.5 pounds of gold and "repeat until profit" but would it break things if we ammended it to say "any projectile or thrown weapon maintains it's larger size just long enough to strike a target, dealing damage as an appropriate sized projectile" so we can stop messing about with all this mismatched size BS?


In which case, you might be better off considering the Martial Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/martial-artist) monk archetype.

Here's a funhorrible twist on the "2 people standing at a path, one tells truth and one tells lies" puzzle.
Put an unarmed fighter variant and the martial artist monk variant at point in the dungeon. The party has 5 rounds to fight them and figure out which is which. Guess right and you win a prize; guess wrong and a dragon eats you. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Which, of course, is why you carry around Large sized arrows to fire from your now Large sized bow. Not that difficult to plan for I would think.
Or rather, have someone else carry them, as otherwise they would enlarge with you when you use Enlarge person and become useless as they are Huge now.

[Krazzman]

Which, of course, is why you carry around Large sized arrows to fire from your now Large sized bow. Not that difficult to plan for I would think.

In any case, sorry for the further de-rail...back on topic.

Ok, now we have another thing, can you fire Large arrows from a Medium bow? Or Huge from a Large?

[Deepbluediver]

Or rather, have someone else carry them, as otherwise they would enlarge with you when you use Enlarge person and become useless as they are Huge now.

Ok, see, this is exactly the size-changing BS I was referring to.

[Benly]

+2 Strength Modifier and Composite Bow. It also increases the size of the weapon.

Greater Heroism is +4/hit and at level 20, when extended, lasts for 400 rounds, or 40 minutes. This duration also assumes no caster level boosting. Divine Power is an additional +6/hit. Together they also add 10 to damage.

On top of the Clerics BAB, that brings us up to +25, +Wis, +Enhancement Bonus to hit. A Cleric may also use Greater Magic Weapon, which lasts 2 hours per level when extended, up to 40 hours. While this doesn't do anything for accuracy and damage, it does mean that the Cleric can cram more enhancements onto their bow than the Monk. Not sure how meaningful that is in PF. Not sure how many enhancements are worth taking, but it still means the Cleric's going to have a better bow.

Quickened Divine Power also obviates the Divine Power-Action Economy problem, so it should always be in play.

Wait, are we talking exclusively about level 20 here now? I was sort of assuming we were talking about over the life of the character.

I have a really hard time getting into level-20-specific discussions, so I'm going to bow out if that's where we're going.

[Ravens_cry]

Ok, see, this is exactly the size-changing BS I was referring to.
It's not that bad, it just means you need a special stock of arrows on your resident pack mule/meat shield/ablative armour to hand you in a fight.

[Deepbluediver]

It's not that bad, it jest means you need a special stock of arrows on your resident pack mule/meat shield/ablative armour to hand you in a fight.

I still fail to see how this is simpler than just rewording the spell slightly so that you can use your normal amunition without penalty and/or needless complexity.

[Frozen_Feet]

Remember though, that a concussion is usually an impact injury, and while they can cause serious medical issues or fatalities (especially repeated consussions) you rarely need the type of lethal damage D&D implies to cause them.

The heck? If it can kill you, it is lethal damage by D&D rules, because non-lethal damage can only knock you out. Since wearing boxing gloves makes death a likelier occasion for reasons discussed, they most certainly don't turn unarmed damage to non-lethal.

Remember, in D&D, unarmed damage is, by default, non-lethal, and without Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you take penalties for dealing lethal damage with unarmed strikes.

If I was to model boxing gloves, I'd at least allow them to halve the penalty for dealing lethal damage, and probably give them a higher damage die than bare fists.


If you want to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes as a non-monk, how do you think something like brass-knuckles (or studded gloves) would work in game?

I don't know, maybe like this? :smalltongue: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/brass-knuckles)

[grarrrg]

About this whole Zen Archer VS. Cleric w/Bow thing.

Stats (ignoring Str/Composite)
Zen Archer needs Wis for Accuracy and 13 Dex for feats (higher Dex not needed because Bonus Feats ignore pre-reqs)
Cleric needs Dex for Archery, Wis for casting, even with a Guided weapon, Cleric STILL needs high enough Dex to qualify for feats.

The Monk is SADder than the Cleric!

[CIDE]

How does the Brawler work out for a better unarmed fighter than the Unarmed Fighter or Monk?

Also, how's it work with "stacking" archetypes? Do you just stagger the trade-offs? Like one Archetype gives up a Feat at level 2 and one at level 3 for different gains...?

[Cieyrin]

Yeah, but then why doesn't the unarmed fighter archetype at least get it? Clearly, he has spent years training in unarmed combat alone.

And what about boxing? Boxing is a good example of a group of people who spend time practicing and perfecting physical attacks with their fists without any religious overtones or need/desire for enlightenment, aesthetics, or wisdom.

The Martial Artist monk archetype gets rid of ki and all that for just fighting.


If you are serious about fighting and not accidentally injuring yourself you should use a realistic weapon like a spiked chain.

Spiked chains? Realistic? Are you serious?!? Spiked chains make as much sense as Dire Flails do. That is, none.


How does the Brawler work out for a better unarmed fighter than the Unarmed Fighter or Monk?

Also, how's it work with "stacking" archetypes? Do you just stagger the trade-offs? Like one Archetype gives up a Feat at level 2 and one at level 3 for different gains...?

If two archetypes trade the same feature, you can't have them both. If they trade different features, then you can have both or more.

As for the difference between Brawler and Unarmed Fighter, Unarmed gets a free Style feat, slower attack boosts and various combat maneuver boosts. Brawler gets enhanced damage and area control.

[CIDE]

On a side note I only consider the Fighter over Monk and brought it up as a thread primarily because I just wanted a martial artist. Not a religious character with combative leanings; just a plain out martial artist.

However, in that particular setting the DM is avidly against ToB and I personally don't know of any other unarmed classes that would be available aside from these two.

Regardless, the conversation as a whole is giving more and more ideas for the future.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Spiked chains? Realistic? Are you serious?!? Spiked chains make as much sense as Dire Flails do. That is, none.

This is why you should use blue text, folks.

Anyway, monk with one of the good archetypes (Master of Many Styles, Quinggong, Hungry Ghost, Zen Archer) can be solid tier 4. Fighter archetypes that's not better than the basic fighter won't compare.

[Benly]

Spiked chains? Realistic? Are you serious?!? Spiked chains make as much sense as Dire Flails do. That is, none.

(psst, that was the joke)

[Novawurmson]

The Monk is SADder than the Cleric!

::mind blown::

More seriously, though, the Psychic Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/psychic-fist) is a great place to head after a few levels of Monk.

Of course, the Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) isn't a bad unarmed class by itself!

[Mystify]

Luz nope :D

See here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person).



Additionally it doesn't affect a bow if you are enlarged if you have set it on your normal strength. Else...jeah else you want these buffs to be there all the time or you get another penality to hit so it's either a mali for being to weak or a mali for being greater.

Monks are special. They can deal their unarmed damage with their arrows. If they are larger, their unarmed damage goes up. Ergo, their arrows do more damage, even if they do shrink after firing, because monk. The extra damage has nothing to do with the size of the arrow.

[rt_tlp]

Stepping in as a practitioner of Western Boxing...

The gloves in most professional boxing matches weight 8-10oz. They're MOSTLY for protection from the damage caused to and from knuckles. If someone who's spent as much time training with his/her hands as a boxer does punches you in the cheek, their knuckles will cut your skin with the force of the impact--the "scratching" effect that people seem to think is so prevalent is actually a very, very minor factor.

We aren't trained to hit harder because "Oh, well the gloves protect your hands and him, so now you can pound on them all you want!" No one is that foolish. We hit harder because we can win through a knockout. It's as simple as that. When you see a boxer hitting extremely hard with his fists, you shouldn't think "well, I could do that if I wasn't afraid of hurting somebody," because without years of training, you can't hit that hard.

Injuries are mostly caused by the concussions caused by the whiplash when someone takes a nasty hit to the jaw. As your head bounces back, it brings your brain along with it. Since your brain is suspended in a liquid, all is fine and dandy so far. If your head goes back at a certain angle (as a result of being hit at a certain point in the jaw, typically) then it won't rock with the blow so much as snap back and be stopped by the shape of your spinal cord. This sudden stop causes your brain, suspended in liquid, to impact the side of your skull, bruising the brain, and therefore causing the brain damage that makes up a concussion.

Long story short: if you want to be realistic about it, you can consider most blows to the head to be nonlethal unless you count "lethal" damage as the impact on one's health that repeated concussions have in the late stages of their life. "Lethal" damage, for all intents and purposes, can be considered pressure-point hunting done by monks.



On a semi-related topic, I've been trying out the Tetori monk recently. It's actually working pretty well so far. I'll probably post something once I have some definitive information.