[PF] The Fighter (WIP)

[Curious]

So, after the topic that spawned this idea has been gone for months, I finally get around to it. This is an attempt to create a tier 3 warrior using no unique mechanics. The only abilities this guy has can all be replicated by anyone else, he's just better at it. PEACH.


The Fighter

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d12.

Class Skills

The fighter’s class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|+1 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver, Improved Combat Maneuvers

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Floating Feat

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|+2 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Floating Feat

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|+3 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Floating Feat

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|+4 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Floating Feat

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|+5 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Floating Feat

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|+6 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8|Floating Feat

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|+7 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|Floating Feat

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|+8 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|Floating Feat

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|+9 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|Floating Feat

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|+10 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Combat Maneuver Master, Floating Feat

[/table]

Class Features

The following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Maneuver Bonus
At 1st level, and every two levels thereafter, the fighter gains a +1 bonus to his combat maneuver bonus and combat maneuver defense.

Improved Combat Maneuver
At 1st level, the Fighter gains all the Improved combat maneuver feats.

Favored Combat Maneuver
At 1st level, and every two levels thereafter, the fighter may choose one combat maneuver. He gains the benefits listed below when he does so.

Bull Rush: You gain the Greater Bull Rush feat. You can Bull Rush enemies up to two size categories larger than you. When you make a successful Bull Rush attempt, you also deal damage as if you had successfully struck the enemy with a basic attack action. Finally, whenever you make a successful Bull Rush attempt, the distance you push the enemy is doubled.

Dirty Trick:

Disarm:

Drag:

Grapple:

Overrun:

Reposition:

Steal:

Sunder:

Trip:



Floating Feat
At 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the fighter gains a bonus feat. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat. At the start of each day, you can choose to change your bonus feats to any other feats for which you meet the prerequisites.

Combat Maneuver Master
Once an encounter, the fighter may automatically succeed on one combat maneuver roll. He may also use the Bull Rush, Dirty Trick and Reposition combat maneuvers in place of an attack action.

[Dragon Star]

No, sorry, this is still tier 4. Otherwise, I like it. Although, all of the improved CM feats at 1st level? That seems like a bit much. You might want to space them out some. And 3 good saves? Why? No other class, ever, has had three good saves. This should really have bad will. Jump should be a class skill. And this needs real class features. Even if you have to steal them from other classes, a pile of feats and some scaling bonuses does not an interesting class make.

[Chronologist]

Actually, the Monk has three good saves, both in 3.5 and in Pathfinder. In 3.5, the Favored Soul also had 3 good saves, so there is precedent.

That said, getting all Improved X feats is too much at 1st level. Consider instead spacing them out, one per level, over the first 5-10 levels.

Instead of floating feats, just give 1 feat per level. That gives the character the option to either specialize in one fighting style, or to branch out into more than one.

I advise you keep the Weapon Training and Armor training abilities.

What would make this class better would be taking the Skirmish ability from the Scout (1d6 damage at levels 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17, +1 AC at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19) and simply not requiring the Fighter move in order to gain the bonuses. Compare it to sneak attack, the fighter won't have as many damage dice, but they'll be hitting harder naturally with better strength, they'll be far more accurate with their attacks, they'll be able to make more attacks due to higher BAB, and they can take a lot more punishment in return. Plus, they don't have to be flanking or hidden to get the benefits.

Even then, it's still not Tier 3, because doesn't it have any abilities that replicate spellcasting. All Tier 3 classes have some for of spellcasting, usually 9th level casting from a restricted list (like the 3.5 Beguiler), or 6th level casting and incredible class features (like the Summoner). Even the Tome of Battle initiators are basically casters with blades.

[Dragon Star]

Actually, T3 doesn't require spellcasting, that's just the easiest way. It just needs to


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so.* Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

The problem with this class is that it might be really good at killing things, but is useless everywhere else. A classic T4.

And sorry about missing monks. I haven't actually looked at their entry in two years. It just pisses me off. Still, I think all good saves is a little much.

[Curious]

The problem with this class is that it might be really good at killing things, but is useless everywhere else. A classic T4.

And sorry about missing monks. I haven't actually looked at their entry in two years. It just pisses me off. Still, I think all good saves is a little much.

The thing I'm trying to do, actually, is to give it enough ways to kill things that it can be called a tier 3. After all, the Warblade is tier 3, despite the fact that almost all of it's maneuvers are some variation on 'hit things', or 'hit things harder.' Also, the class isn't quite done yet. I still need to finish up the favoured maneuver selections.

Now, as for giving the class all the Improved X feats at level 1. I think I'm going to leave it as is, because it really isn't worth all that much. Any build that even bothers to use combat maneuvers at all usually focuses on one or two of them. So, really, gaining all of the Improved X lines really just reduces the penalty involved with using combat maneuvers, rather than give any kind of real advantage.

[NeoSeraphi]

The thing I'm trying to do, actually, is to give it enough ways to kill things that it can be called a tier 3. After all, the Warblade is tier 3, despite the fact that almost all of it's maneuvers are some variation on 'hit things', or 'hit things harder.' Also, the class isn't quite done yet. I still need to finish up the favoured maneuver selections.

The warblade is not Tier 3. Anyone who said that to you doesn't understand the tier system. And you pointed out the exact reason it's a tier 4. It's good at killing things, but that's about it. (Warblades can also break stuff with Mountain Hammer. Woo. You can save yourself buying an adamantine weapon. They can protect themselves with Iron Heart Surge, and help out allies with White Raven Tactics. Both useful, but only in combat. It's not the same as a tier 3)

Crusader is a high Tier 4, due to the fact that he can also heal, but only in combat. Swordsage is arguably tier 3 due to a myriad of useful skills, as well as teleportation, concealment (which allows you to Hide when you have no cover), and the ability to turn incorporeal and ethereal.


Now, as for giving the class all the Improved X feats at level 1. I think I'm going to leave it as is, because it really isn't worth all that much. Any build that even bothers to use combat maneuvers at all usually focuses on one or two of them. So, really, gaining all of the Improved X lines really just reduces the penalty involved with using combat maneuvers, rather than give any kind of real advantage.

I agree that you should give him all the Improved maneuver feats as bonus feats, but consider how dippable that makes your fighter. Simple, Martial, Light, Medium, Heavy, All Shields, d12, 4+Int, all good saves, +1 CMB, Favored Combat Maneuver, and 11 feats as bonus feats (that you need not meet the qualifications for). In one level.


Edit: I see your original goal. You want to give him a bunch of customization, but allow for so many options that he is arguably tier 3, without making him unique. It's a cool goal, and I wish you luck. Here are some suggestions:

The fighter is not restricted by size when performing a combat maneuver. He still takes Size penalties if he has them, but he can Trip Colossal creatures if his check is high enough (he doesn't auto-fail against creatures two or more Size categories larger than him when he Trips, Bull Rushes, Drags, Grapples and the others with Size restrictions). A character whose special skills can all be negated by a large majority of monsters is not Tier 3.

A fighter with Greater Dirty Trick gets an expanded list of cool status conditions that allow him to be as deadly as a wizard. (Petrification, paralysis, nausea, and death all come to mind, level appropriate of course)

A fighter receives additional attacks of opportunity per round based on his Base Attack Bonus (no need for Combat Reflexes or a high Dexterity mod anymore, but it stacks with CR if they take it). I'd say, 1/3 BAB extra AoOs.

A fighter who knocks a creature prone with Trip can immediately attempt to grapple and pin that creature as a free action. (And with a single grapple check)

A fighter who knocks a creature prone with Overrun can immediately attempt to Drag that creature as he continues moving.

A fighter receives a scaling Deflection bonus to his AC based on his Base Attack Bonus when wielding a weapon. He does not gain this benefit when he is unarmed unless he has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. A fighter with a shield instead increases his shield's bonus to AC by the amount he would have increased the Deflection bonus by.

I second you keeping Weapon and Armor Mastery.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The warblade is not Tier 3. Anyone who said that to you doesn't understand the tier system. And you pointed out the exact reason it's a tier 4. It's good at killing things, but that's about it. (Warblades can also break stuff with Mountain Hammer. Woo. You can save yourself buying an adamantine weapon. They can protect themselves with Iron Heart Surge, and help out allies with White Raven Tactics. Both useful, but only in combat. It's not the same as a tier 3)

Crusader is a high Tier 4, due to the fact that he can also heal, but only in combat. Swordsage is arguably tier 3 due to a myriad of useful skills, as well as teleportation, concealment (which allows you to Hide when you have no cover), and the ability to turn incorporeal and ethereal.

Well, it's you versus everyone who likes ToB and the tier system. JaronK listed them as tier 3. From what I've seen, everyone on the forums who likes the tier system thinks they're tier 3.

Crusaders have in-combat healing, the ability to just plain ignore half the damage just dealt, and good skills.

Warblade has excellent maneuverability, being able to jump 30 feet as a move+swift action while in Leaping Dragon Stance and using anything that grant swift action movement, or 45 feet as a full round+swift action. At level 5. The distance increases with jump bonuses.

Both of them are also able to cut walls with a random magic sword they picked up. They don't something made of some special material. Oh, and they can also ignore DR.

They are both better than a whirlpouncebarian in combat, so they are either tier 3, or they are overpowered.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, it's you versus everyone who likes ToB and the tier system. JaronK listed them as tier 3. From what I've seen, everyone on the forums who likes the tier system thinks they're tier 3.

Crusaders have in-combat healing, the ability to just plain ignore half the damage just dealt, and good skills.

Warblade has excellent maneuverability, being able to jump 30 feet as a move+swift action while in Leaping Dragon Stance and using anything that grant swift action movement, or 45 feet as a full round+swift action. At level 5. The distance increases with jump bonuses.

Both of them are also able to cut walls with a random magic sword they picked up. They don't something made of some special material. Oh, and they can also ignore DR.

They are both better than a whirlpouncebarian in combat, so they are either tier 3, or they are overpowered.

First of all, I really like Tome of Battle. It solves plenty of melee's worst issues. Just because they're tier 4 classes doesn't make them bad or mean that I don't like them.

I think Tier 3 is about versatility, not power. I mean, yes, you are unquestionably the best warrior-types in the game, but you aren't able to solve multiple problems with your class features alone.

Consider the beguiler, which is also a tier 3 character. Beguilers have amazing skills like a swordsage, and a ridiculous number of skill points (6+Int synergy). They also have trapfinding, they can turn invisible, they can control others with enchantments, they can create illusions, which serve as distractions, misleadings, scare tactics, empty threats, etc. A beguiler can serve as one of the best (if not the best) party face characters in the game with their social interaction skills coupled with their spellcasting, and they also have Use Magic Device, which means they are a wand or scroll away from being healers, flight, blasting, animating the dead, etc.

And a warblade can cut things. He can ignore hardness. He can jump high. He has Diplomacy and Intimidate.

Warblades are at the top of tier 4, in my opinion, but they are nowhere near as versatile as a bard, a dread necromancer or a beguiler.

Edit: Still, if Jaron says they are, then I suppose they are. If that's the case, the floor is a lot lower on the versatility front than I thought, so a Tier 3 fighter shouldn't be too hard to pull off.

[Blisstake]

I don't think Fighter can be made into Tier 3 without fundamental differences to the way the class operates. And you know, I'm fine with that, really. As long as he can do his role well enough, that doesn't entirely bother me.

Whether he can do that role or not is up to discussion, of course (though it's been discussed to death). 3 good saves also seems unecesary, but I'm fine with the d12 hit dice and the expanded skills (every non-int class should have at least 4+int skills).

[jmelesky]

I agree that three good saves is probably too much. Giving them a bravery-type ability (bonuses to a subset of Will saves) might be worth considering.

I think the raw CMB/D bonuses might be a bit high. Tough to tell without statting out some characters and running a couple playthroughs.

Instead, consider rolling that and the Improved feat into Favored Maneuver. Something like:



Maneuver Training: At 1st level, the fighter chooses a Combat Maneuver. When she chooses the maneuver, she gains a +1 bonus to CMB for that maneuver and to CMD against that maneuver. In addition, she gains the Improved feat for that maneuver even if she doesn't otherwise qualify for it. Finally, the maximum Size class of opponents who can be targeted by her maneuver increases by 1.

Every 2 levels past 1st, she chooses an additional Combat Maneuver, and gains the +1 bonus and Improved feat. In addition, the bonuses granted to previously selected maneuvers go up by +1, including an increase to possible Size class of targets.


"Every 2 levels" will run out of combat maneuvers, so it might be less frequent, or you could offer the ability to choose a given maneuver more than once (give "Greater" for free the second time, then a special fighter-only thing for the third).

Changing it in that vein makes it far less "dippable", works similar to the existing Weapon and Armor Training abilities (which i'd keep), and gives the opportunity for wider fighter customization.

[NeoSeraphi]

"Every 2 levels" will run out of combat maneuvers, so it might be less frequent, or you could offer the ability to choose a given maneuver more than once (give "Greater" for free the second time, then a special fighter-only thing for the third).


Actually, there are 11 combat maneuvers in Pathfinder. (Steal, Disarm, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Feint, Dirty Trick, Drag, Overrun, Sunder, and Reposition). So you don't run out, you actually don't have enough (you get 10 of them over the course of all your odd levels as a fighter).

[jmelesky]

Actually, there are 11 combat maneuvers in Pathfinder. (Steal, Disarm, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Feint, Dirty Trick, Drag, Overrun, Sunder, and Reposition). So you don't run out, you actually don't have enough (you get 10 of them over the course of all your odd levels as a fighter).

Ah, you're right, i always forget Feint is considered a maneuver -- it doesn't use the normal CMB/CMD mechanics. I'm not sure how you'd work that into the +X to CMB/D system ("+X to Bluff checks to Feint, and a +X to the DC of opponents Feinting you"? That works, but the wording got clunky quickly).

Aside from that, what do you think of the modification?

[Roxxy]

I don't have a problem with three good saves, but I do have a problem with three good saves AND 12 sided hit dice. I'd drop the HD to 10 or make it choose between a good Ref and a good Will. I also wouldn't give it all Improved feats at first level.

As for class skills, I add the following to the Fighter skill list in my games: Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Fly, Heal, Knowledge (Any), Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device.

Other than that, it looks good. Could you go through the Fighter Archetypes and modify them to work with this new class?

As for which tier it is, I hate the tier system with a bloody vengeance, so I'm staying out of the tier 3 or 4 discussion.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, you're right, i always forget Feint is considered a maneuver -- it doesn't use the normal CMB/CMD mechanics. I'm not sure how you'd work that into the +X to CMB/D system ("+X to Bluff checks to Feint, and a +X to the DC of opponents Feinting you"? That works, but the wording got clunky quickly).

Aside from that, what do you think of the modification?

It works pretty well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ehh the fighter should be tough. I don't mind three good saves and d12.

But yeah, all the Improved feats at first level makes this extremely dippable, especially when combined with +2 to all saves.

[Curious]

Oh, jeez, lot of posts there.

NeoSeraphi, I like your suggestions for combat maneuvers. I think I'll toss in a clause to the completed draft that allows for combos between different favoured maneuvers.

Like I said before, I'm not terribly worried about giving out all the Improved feats at level 1, because very few others will actually gain much benefit from it. Still, if the consensus is that it is too good, I may fold it into the Favoured Maneuver progression.

As for all good saves. . . I tend to think that any front line class shouldn't have such easily exploitable weaknesses that a single bad saving throw can take them down. It also fits the general idea of heroic willpower. When was the last time you saw a wizard with more mental fortitude than a great warrior?