Magic is magic is magic: Doing away with arcane/divine distinctions

[Jeff the Green]

Got another question about magic house rules for y'all.

How would it affect game balance and play if arcane/divine distinctions were eliminated? So, for example, the Eldritch Knight's requirements would read:

Weapon Proficiency
Must be proficient with all martial weapons.

Spells
Able to cast 3rd-level spells.

and a (profoundly stupid) paladin could get in at level 12.

For the sake of argument, let's say we kept arcane spell failure in place for the classes that have it. (Some arcane classes already ignore light or medium armor, so I don't think it'd be a stretch to say some ignore light, some ignore medium, some ignore heavy, and some suffer ASF from any armor.)

[Zaq]

What's the intent behind this? Basically, it wouldn't make a huge splash in most games, but it would open up a few feats and PrCs to casters who wouldn't normally get them, and to be honest, I don't think the casters need the boost.

EDIT: Oh, and Archivists would become even more crazy powerful than they already are.

[Jeff the Green]

What's the intent behind this? Basically, it wouldn't make a huge splash in most games, but it would open up a few feats and PrCs to casters who wouldn't normally get them, and to be honest, I don't think the casters need the boost.

EDIT: Oh, and Archivists would become even more crazy powerful than they already are.

Fluff, mostly. I've wanted to play in a setting where atheism is not a symptom of insanity (or worse) for a long time, and making divine magic really only a different flavor is one of the ideas I came up with.

And another thing I'm trying is essentially turning the tier 1s into NPC classes and nerfing the tier 2s a bit. So you could make a crazy powerful BBG Archivist, but it wouldn't unbalance parties quite so much. (Though the feedback I got on the way I was planning on nerfing and NPCifying is making me think about straight up saying "tier 1s don't exist; magic doesn't work like that.")

[HunterOfJello]

Fluff, mostly. I've wanted to play in a setting where atheism is not a symptom of insanity (or worse) for a long time, and making divine magic really only a different flavor is one of the ideas I came up with.

And another thing I'm trying is essentially turning the tier 1s into NPC classes and nerfing the tier 2s a bit. So you could make a crazy powerful BBG Archivist, but it wouldn't unbalance parties quite so much. (Though the feedback I got on the way I was planning on nerfing and NPCifying is making me think about straight up saying "tier 1s don't exist; magic doesn't work like that.")

1. Ebeeron

Atheism is not regarded as insanity in the Eberron setting and many people don't worship any gods there at all. Since the gods of the main pantheon have never been seen, never appear to even their highest ranking clerics, and give out no punishments or repercussions to their followers who betray their churches, many people in Eberron doubt that the gods exist. Also, there are several not-truly-divine entities and groups that are worshiped and award the same benefits to their clerics as the main pantheon's gods are claimed to. Elves who worship their living ancestors, zealous lycanthrope haters who worship a weird white talking fire, and individuals who actually worship powerful (but definitely not deified) aberrations who live trapped deep down below the surface of the planet also gain the same "divine" benefits that the clerics of the major gods are said to give. To say that there are no true gods and that a person gains divine-like power purely by choosing to believe in something with all their heart, is not a rare or unfounded position in Eberron. Hell, some warforged even worship a strong, yet not very powerful at all, warforged leader called the Lord of Blades who lives in the middle of a screwed up warzone that is uninhabitable for any living creatures.

Banning Tier 1 and 2 classes is acceptable. Nerfing Tier 2s but not Tier 1 is just annoying as hell. Just be aware that players can get pissed if they get into a fight and get their butts handed to them by a npc who has 15 levels in a class that they've been banned from entering. (That's a gripe I've heard from several 4e players since there are enemies with abilities there that are not duplicable by PCs and that players can never get access to).

[Illven]

Fluff, mostly. I've wanted to play in a setting where atheism is not a symptom of insanity (or worse) for a long time, and making divine magic really only a different flavor is one of the ideas I came up with.

And another thing I'm trying is essentially turning the tier 1s into NPC classes and nerfing the tier 2s a bit. So you could make a crazy powerful BBG Archivist, but it wouldn't unbalance parties quite so much. (Though the feedback I got on the way I was planning on nerfing and NPCifying is making me think about straight up saying "tier 1s don't exist; magic doesn't work like that.")

Well one idea I read is that the non believers in divine beings just see no difference between a really powerful outsider, and a deity. (It's not so much doubting the deity existence, but doubting that it's worthy of worship)

It helps when you have clerics of causes though.

[Jeff the Green]

Oh, I know about Eberron (though I haven't played a campaign in it). It's just too... dark, I guess, for what I want to run or play in right now. I want something more like Forgotten Realms or Grayhawk in tone.

And I am nerfing tier 1s. Hard. That's why they're NPC classes (see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231577)).

Edit:


Well one idea I read is that the non believers in divine beings just see no difference between a really powerful outsider, and a deity. (It's not so much doubting the deity existence, but doubting that it's worthy of worship)

It helps when you have clerics of causes though.

That's not really atheist as much as misotheist. In Faerun someone would have to be insane to say "Talos doesn't exist," but it's perfectly reasonable to say "Talos is a jerk."

[Akto]

I would love playing under a houserule like that regarding removing the differnece between if a PrC can be taken by divine or arcane caster class's, always wanted to play a cleric archmage with reach spell =P

[Feytalist]

That's not really atheist as much as misotheist. In Faerun someone would have to be insane to say "Talos doesn't exist," but it's perfectly reasonable to say "Talos is a jerk."

Sure, if you don't mind a lightning bolt all up in your business. :smallbiggrin:

[ahenobarbi]

I would love playing under a houserule like that regarding removing the differnece between if a PrC can be taken by divine or arcane caster class's, always wanted to play a cleric archmage with reach spell =P

You know you can have reach spell as a feat?

EDIT: You should be ok with saying "<some FR god> is a jerk". It's not like they can blast you for something like that me thinks. Because if they could they would blast you for not worshiping them in the first place, right?

[olentu]

That's not really atheist as much as misotheist. In Faerun someone would have to be insane to say "Talos doesn't exist," but it's perfectly reasonable to say "Talos is a jerk."

Well it is not that they are saying the gods are jerks but that they are redefining the word god to mean something other then the D&D "gods".

[FMArthur]

Divine Metamagic...

[Akto]

You know you can have reach spell as a feat?

EDIT: You should be ok with saying "<some FR god> is a jerk". It's not like they can blast you for something like that me thinks. Because if they could they would blast you for not worshiping them in the first place, right?

Yeah i know reach spell, but as i read the archmage ability, it doesn't change your spell into a ray, opening up for some chain spell fun, among other things =) also no +2 spell level on the spell, so you can have fun other places with your DMM

[Southern Cross]

Two words: Arcana Evolved (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?arcanaevolved).

[ahenobarbi]

On the topic: this would seriously buff casters. For example it would allow you to use Metamagic reducers from both sides on your spells (like DMM some spell then use Incanatrix to more meta magic...).

If you want atheists to be allowed in your setting you don't need to make all magic the same thing. As suggested someone might believe d&d gods are just powerful outsiders, not worth worship. Might doubt their existence because gods don't take direct actions in this setting. Heck maybe even there are really no gods interested in that particular bit of 1st Material Plane.


Yeah i know reach spell, but as i reach the archmage ability, it doesn't change your spell into a ray, opening up for some chain spell fun, among other things =) also no +2 spell level on the spell, so you can have fun other places with your DMM

Right.

[Alleran]

EDIT: You should be ok with saying "<some FR god> is a jerk". It's not like they can blast you for something like that me thinks. Because if they could they would blast you for not worshiping them in the first place, right?
Pretty much, yeah.

[sonofzeal]

Oh, I know about Eberron (though I haven't played a campaign in it). It's just too... dark, I guess, for what I want to run or play in right now. I want something more like Forgotten Realms or Grayhawk in tone.
While "tone" is a perfectly acceptable reason to discard one setting in favour of another, I think Eberron gets mischaracterized as "dark" too often. It's got its share of problems, as does any campaign setting. But... human kingdoms are prosperous, the average quality of life is higher than you'll see in just about any other WotC setting, and the overall tone is optimistic and adventurous. It's grittier, sure, but more in the manner of old Pulp novels festooned with pictures of explorers swinging on vines and pilfering priceless artefacts, the sort of tales that came in anthologies like "ASTONISHING STORIES", or "FANTASTIC NOVELS". James Bond would feel right at home in Eberron.

I'm willing to assume you meant something other than "dark" and just pulled out the wrong word, but it's a pet peeve of mine that Eberron gets characterized that way when I feel the essential nature of the setting is very much the opposite.

[Jeff the Green]

Divine Metamagic...


On the topic: this would seriously buff casters. For example it would allow you to use Metamagic reducers from both sides on your spells (like DMM some spell then use Incanatrix to more meta magic...).

Yipes! :smalleek: I did not think of that. I mean, I know it's technically possible anyway via Southern Magician and a Sacred Exorcist dip, but there's no need to open that door any further.

Okay, definitely not collapsing divine and arcane. I could probably house rule the most blatant exploits, but that's more trouble than it's worth and I'm sure I'd leave holes. I'll just have to figure out how divine and arcane magic are different when there are no (interventionist) gods.


It's grittier, sure, but more in the manner of old Pulp novels festooned with pictures of explorers swinging on vines and pilfering priceless artefacts, the sort of tales that came in anthologies like "ASTONISHING STORIES", or "FANTASTIC NOVELS". James Bond would feel right at home in Eberron.

"Pulp," that's the word I was looking for! I know it's not a terribly depressing setting (I think Faerun is worse, actually), it's just not sweepingly epic enough for what I want... That's still not the exact words I'm looking for. It's less Tolkein's Middle Earth than Butler's Chicago.

[Mystify]

I do see some mechanical issues with throwing away the distinction. DMM was mentioned, and it would be a big one. Players are willing to jump through some elaborate hoops to DMM arcane spells. Making that default is problematic. Prestige class access would also be strange, but I'm not sure how problematic it would be offhand. Incantrix and IotSV clerics and druids come to mind. theurge classes would operate strangely.
Combined with removing T1 classes from play, the next problem is probably meaningless, but divine casters with access to their entire spell list can qualify for "must be able to cast X spell" or "x spells of y school" easier, since they don't have to learn spells. However, wizards don't really have a problem with that either, so its probably not a serious concern.
But it would definitely constitute a power boost, as it would open up a lot of new, powerful options without really having a draw back. To ban T1 classes then boost magic seems like a really weird way to go about it.
You could instead say that arcane and divine magic aren't fundamentally different, but they are completely different, mostly incompatible executions of magic. Arcane approach uses verbal spells, material components, and hand gestures, while divine magic uses runes and symbols, and channeling energy through a focus, for instance. They are both magic, but they function differently, and the different approaches are best suited to different types of magic. This keeps the mechanical split without needing to invoke deities.

[Psyren]

Would be a nice buff for Warlocks and Shadowcasters, in terms of e.g. what PrCs they can take.

[gkathellar]

It opens up a big can of worms, but it's not a bad idea. The distinction is arbitrary and annoying ... it's just that there's a lot of material quote-unquote-balanced around said distinction that'll get even worse in its absence.

Also it makes Rainbow Servants a go-to class for wizards, since they can now actually prepare the spells it grants them. Two full lists FTW!


In Faerun someone would have to be insane to say "Talos doesn't exist," but it's perfectly reasonable to say "Talos is a jerk."

And that's why we love him.

[Psyren]

That's not really atheist as much as misotheist. In Faerun someone would have to be insane to say "Talos doesn't exist," but it's perfectly reasonable to say "Talos is a jerk."

Ironically though, if enough people said "Talos doesn't exist," pretty soon he wouldn't.

[FMArthur]

Honestly, I would have a hard time thinking of something that is solely dependent on belief for its mere existance as a god, or a real thing at all. It puts the entity's legitimacy as a real creature only a little higher than an illusion from the [Shadow] subschool if you ask me. Pretty sure a lot of dudes in tacky oversized robes would agree with that assessment.

Is the powered-by-belief fluff common knowledge or no? I don't recall ever directly reading about it.

[Mystify]

Honestly, I would have a hard time thinking of something that is solely dependent on belief for its mere existance as a god, or a real thing at all. It puts the entity's legitimacy as a real creature only a little higher than an illusion from the [Shadow] subschool if you ask me. Pretty sure a lot of dudes in tacky oversized robes would agree with that assessment.

Is the powered-by-belief fluff common knowledge or no? I don't recall ever directly reading about it.

I've heard of it, but I couldn't tell you the source. It was a major plot point in one of my campaigns.

[Chronos]

Powered-by-belief fluff is prominent in the works of Terry Pratchett (especially Small Gods) and Neil Gaiman (American Gods). Though interestingly, it doesn't seem to apply in the book they wrote together, Good Omens.

One other subtle problem, meanwhile, with what you're proposing is that there are a fair number of arcane options designed for sorcerers, with requirements like "must be able to spontaneously cast arcane spells". Yeah, wizards can pull some tricks to get access to those, but clerics and druids wouldn't have to pull any tricks at all: Clerics spontaneously cast Cures, and druids spontaneously cast summons.

[Jeff the Green]

Honestly, I would have a hard time thinking of something that is solely dependent on belief for its mere existance as a god, or a real thing at all. It puts the entity's legitimacy as a real creature only a little higher than an illusion from the [Shadow] subschool if you ask me. Pretty sure a lot of dudes in tacky oversized robes would agree with that assessment.

Is the powered-by-belief fluff common knowledge or no? I don't recall ever directly reading about it.

Well, it's in Forgotten Realms. Also. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly)

[Calanon]

Divine Metamagic...

I'd find it hilarious if someone decided to toss a Maximized Meteor Swarm or Energy Drain or any other BS spell at you for the low-low-low-low cost of just THREE turnings/rebukes :smallcool:

The one level dip in Cleric would just be manditory... that is if he actually allowed Cleric in his game but since that is the case I only have one question: What happens if the story demands that the players get attacked by wights? I just wanna know how pissed they would be :smallbiggrin:

[Suddo]

Alternate Source Spell is a metamagic feat that basically does this.
Though this just lets you choose one the double sided reducers (DMM and Incantrix was mentioned) wouldn't work.

[Metahuman1]

Suggestion to the Dm.

Clerics get power, not because the gods give them power, but because the cleric in question is so totally convinced the god is giving him power. It's the clerics unfaltering belief in the reality of what he thinks he's doing, not the god itself, that's causing the magic to work.

The gods, might exist, might not, but either way they don't actually take action on the material plane. If they don't exist, that's why they don't act. If they exist, they just don't bother. If you worship them, great, fantastic, they'll give you a nice pat on the shoulder when you die if they exist. If there evil, they'll maybe throw you a bone and keep you out of hell and eternal damnation so that you can justify evil people in the setting. If your good, you just go to a good aligned plane for your afterlife.

And with a set up like this, many people can safely not be religious or even outright refuse to believe in any actual deity's.

[Treblain]

Would be a nice buff for Warlocks and Shadowcasters, in terms of e.g. what PrCs they can take.

I don't remember how Shadowcasters work, but the way the rules for warlock PrC entry is, it wouldn't make that much difference. Since divine prestige classes are written with full-list prepared casters in mind, most of them say "ability to cast X-level spells", which doesn't let warlocks qualify.

[Suddo]

@Metahuman: I had a friend who convened his DM to let him be a cleric that worshiped himself. Every morning the cleric would wake up and pray to himself and gain his powers. The power was actually coming from a chaos god of some kind who that it was hilarious.

[Psyren]

I don't remember how Shadowcasters work, but the way the rules for warlock PrC entry is, it wouldn't make that much difference. Since divine prestige classes are written with full-list prepared casters in mind, most of them say "ability to cast X-level spells", which doesn't let warlocks qualify.

No, but the ones that say "Divine Caster Level X" would. (Granted, I'm drawing a blank on those, but...)

As for Shadowcasters, they'd be able to take any casting PrC in the game under this system.

[Red_Dog]

*RAGE... lags. Sry for potential confusion everyone*

Ctrl-F did not indicated that this thread contains an mandatory UR-Priest reference.

>Mandatory Ur-Priest Reference<

There, all better ^^.
=================================================>

Jokes aside, first doing this with magic will break the crap out of the game as per a lot of reasons above.

But just for some "fluff" stuff, I have to say that while "magic IS magic", the way people access it is a different matter. Its kind of like stealing treats when you were a kid=> Some people will be innately charming and parents will just give them what they want. Some will need to study hard to either get a way to steal them, or to be good in order for parents to give them treats, and some will simply beg relentlessly until the prayers are answered = ]
I hope this analogy made someone chuckle ^^.

Anyways, tbh I think that d&d(especially at higher levels as in after 10-ish) can be treated as innately atheistic. Presence of cosmic powers that a lot of people have(or claim to) physical evidence of basically takes fate and cans it. Its all about being what your patron wants you to be and spread his name and fame. Its a job rather than faith. It goes quadruple for all the evil clerics. They HAVE to try extra hard, because if they don't and deity refuses them, than they will have to face of eternity in a plane of there alignment. Its your basic Sci-Fi concept, yes there are absurdly powerful entities(they are called wizards... just jesting ^^) and yes you can try to nag/impress one for power.
Of course for not clerics/varies diviners, religion can take on faith aspect. After all low level commoners won't believe everything everyone says(especially if messages are contradicting and confusing). But this doesn't mean your setting is atheism incompatible.

And than there are of course Ur-Priests. The guys with enough balls to bluff deities every day. If you want a mean, no-nonsense atheist, Ur-Priest is your guy/gal.
If you want to try debating the alignment, just talk it over with the DM. I am sure you can work out that kind of change.

[Venger]

Alternate Source Spell is a metamagic feat that basically does this.
Though this just lets you choose one the double sided reducers (DMM and Incantrix was mentioned) wouldn't work.

yeah, but it's dragon magazine, so some people don't allow it

[Artman77]

I would say combining the two would open the door for some crazy OP PrC/feat combos. That could easily mess up a DM's whole campaign. We don't want that. I've been DMing for a long time, and I have broken lots of rules on a case-by-case basis with no problems at all.

For instance, you want an atheist character to have access to a divine spell or PrC. That's fine. Swap out that one spell for another of equal strength on the wizard list or double check the PrC to make sure it wouldn't be OP and let him take it as an arcane caster.
I could even see making the whole cleric class an arcane class: Take out the domain spells, healing spells, and make him prep the spells out of a book instead of praying for them...

Generally I do things like this because it adds a lot of flavor to the campaign I'm running, and keeps the players from thinking 1. They know everything, and 2. Something might be off limits.
I do it on a case-by-case so that I don't open a can of worms. "Well you said that..."
I can get away with this because I can do legitimate damage control on the fly. "Isn't this wizard impressed that I can cast all these spells he thought only clerics could cast?" I'll say; "I don't know, why don't you ask him?" And play it out. Yes. He is prepared to make you rich so he can copy your book. No. (secret bluff check) He downplays it and plans to steal your book later. No. He merely thinks you're a cleric and you're lying...

[Artman77]

To clarify/simplify: No for the whole campaign, it would ruin balance/game mechanics. Yes on a case-by-case basis if you think ahead or can creatively and legitimately control a potential imbalance problem resulting from a rule break.

As far as the whole atheism/theism arcane/divine source of power question: It's your world, do it how you want. I wouldn't really worry about the specific explanations unless your campaign goes epic, and you are actually dealing with god(s), or if your atheist with 30 ranks in arcana wants to debate with a priest who has 30 ranks in religion. Magic isn't science, it's fiction, why worry about the rules so much? We just want to have fun.