Does a Wild Shape Ranger qualify for the Shapeshifting Druid ACF in PHB2?

[Aerlock]

Pretty much what it says on the tin. I've had the stirrings of an idea floating around in the back of my noggin for a while now and I'm thinking about fleshing it out.

I've wondered if the Wild Shape Ranger would qualify for this ACF since he doesn't get his animal companion at 1st level. The sticking point I have is the giving up of the animal companion. Other than the fact that its a Druid ACF, I'm thinking it does because it doesn't say anything about giving up the animal companion at 1st level just that you give up ever getting an animal companion.

So what says the playground?

- Aerlock

[gkathellar]

By RAW, there's no such thing as "qualifying" for ACFs beyond being a member of the class it's actually for and not having already traded out the class feature in question for some other ACF. So by RAW: no, because it's a druid ACF, not a ranger ACF.

That said, ACF-chaining is a reasonably popular house rule, and some people read it as RAI, which is fine for them. If you allow for ACF-chaining in the first place: maybe. See, if you're doing ACF-chaining, than by RAW it should work ... but ACF-chaining is already a house rule, so it's really up to how you implement that house rule.

Personally, I'd allow it at level 1, and if I met a more conservative DM who was still fine with ACF-chaining, I'd argue it was reasonable for it to come in at level 4. After all, that's the level rangers get Animal Companion and Spellcasting, and Wild Shape comes 1 level later — so level 4 is perfectly reasonable.

[Coidzor]

Your game won't explode, no.

I believe it's something that's recommended if you wanted to nerf druids and scale down the versatility of wild shape rangers by preventing them from getting into master of many forms.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Shape Ranger gets only the basic Wild Shape of a Druid 5, plus the daily uses for higher levels beyond that, but no improvements such as increased/decreased size or plant/elemental types. I'd say go ahead, but only Predator Form and Aerial Form. Just like a Wild Shape Ranger never gets Wild Shape: Large or Plant/Elemental, a Shapeshift Ranger shouldn't get the Forest Slayer, Forest Avenger, or Elemental Fury forms.

[Aerlock]

Wild Shape Ranger gets only the basic Wild Shape of a Druid 5, plus the daily uses for higher levels beyond that, but no improvements such as increased/decreased size or plant/elemental types. I'd say go ahead, but only Predator Form and Aerial Form. Just like a Wild Shape Ranger never gets Wild Shape: Large or Plant/Elemental, a Shapeshift Ranger shouldn't get the Forest Slayer, Forest Avenger, or Elemental Fury forms.

Wha??? How have I never gotten that the many times I've read that variant? Now that you point it out its pretty plain that it only gets small and medium animals and thats it. I had always interpreted it to mean it doesn't get the Large/Huge/Tiny forms but got everything else. Hrmm, gonna have to rethink my idea then I think.

Since my idea was to get a shapeshifting front line melee char thats not going overboard in wild shape/MoMF cheese and that doesn't appear to be do-able the way I thought, Any one else got an idea on how I might accomplish it. If I can stay with minimal casting too that would be nice, but not necessary.

Thanks,
- Aerlock

[gkathellar]

Just use a regular Wild Shape ranger, and only use Fleshraker form? Hell, even Venomfire isn't all that overpowered with such a low caster level.


- Aerlock

Also, not to be rude, but why do this signing thing when your username is right on your post already? I'm seriously just asking out of curiosity.

[deuxhero]

I wouldn't recommend it even if you could. Shapeshift is a stealth nerf for the rather over powered wild shape, Wild Shape Ranger is a solid boost to a class that isn't all that powerful otherwise.

[Aerlock]

Also, not to be rude, but why do this signing thing when your username is right on your post already? I'm seriously just asking out of curiosity.

Just a habit I picked up on when I started to do the internet thing way back when. It's the last thing I do when posting to make sure I have all my thoughts out clearly and I've spell checked everything.

- Aerlock

[Big Fau]

Wild Shape Ranger gets only the basic Wild Shape of a Druid 5, plus the daily uses for higher levels beyond that, but no improvements such as increased/decreased size or plant/elemental types. I'd say go ahead, but only Predator Form and Aerial Form. Just like a Wild Shape Ranger never gets Wild Shape: Large or Plant/Elemental, a Shapeshift Ranger shouldn't get the Forest Slayer, Forest Avenger, or Elemental Fury forms.

Is that really necessary though? I mean, look at what the Ranger has to trade out to have both of those ACFs. Getting rid of later forms means there's no point in staying Ranger, whereas keeping the higher level forms means the player is at least getting something for his Wildshape abilities.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is that really necessary though? I mean, look at what the Ranger has to trade out to have both of those ACFs. Getting rid of later forms means there's no point in staying Ranger, whereas keeping the higher level forms means the player is at least getting something for his Wildshape abilities.

He trades his combat style (3 feats total) to gain Fast Movement and limited Wild Shape. He then trades his limited Wild Shape and his half-progression Animal Companion for Shapeshift. I think limiting the usefulness of Shapeshift for him is pretty fair.

Wildshape Ranger is only a five level class, after that you should be taking Master of Many Forms, Warshaper, Nature's Warrior, etc. Shapeshift Ranger does look pretty bad later on though, only getting one attack per round in either of its forms. Maybe use a Swift Hunter build and/or give Predator Form a pair of claw attacks later on to make it more viable. You could also throw Warshaper into the mix to add as many natural weapons as you want, but you may need to use Changeling to qualify. You could use Shapeshift for combat early on, but then switch to fighting with manufactured weapons to benefit from your higher BAB later, with Shapeshift serving as a travel/utility/RP ability.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

While in the shapeshifted form you could give up your bite attack to use a mouthpick weapon to take advantage of your high BAB. (Lords of Madness pg. 46; price: +1)

[gkathellar]

He trades his combat style (3 feats total) to gain Fast Movement and limited Wild Shape. He then trades his limited Wild Shape and his half-progression Animal Companion for Shapeshift. I think limiting the usefulness of Shapeshift for him is pretty fair.

Strongly disagree. The real reason Shapeshift has to scale is that you lose your magic items while Shapeshifted — frankly, Predator Form is completely useless by level 20.