"Velcome to Barovia, Traveller" (Or, "Let's Build a Character.")

[dsmiles]

So, long time no see, playground. After a long hiatus from DnD, my group has decided to run through Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I will be playing the cleric, and I have been challenged to build a cleric that can darn near solo EtCR...at level 6...by Saturday.

I'll need some helping hands, and we are currently under the restriction of 3d6 for stats.

Well, then. Any takers?

EDIT: Here's the final skinny:
Stat rolls are 3d6, arrange to taste.
Any PHB race.
Any PHB, PHBII, UA, or Complete series class (including PrCs).
Same for feats.
Spells from above plus Spell Compendium.
Equipment from any book except the MIC. Unless the MIC contains an updated version of an item from an older book. Stacking rules as per MIC.

I think that about covers it.

[TroubleBrewing]

Cloistered Cleric of Pelor 6/RSoP 10/Sacred Exorcist 4.

That should do the trick.

[dsmiles]

Cloistered Cleric of Pelor 6/RSoP 10/Sacred Exorcist 4.

That should do the trick.

Well, I only have 6 levels to play with. What order should I go with? What feats should I take (other than prereqs for the PrCs, that is)?

EDIT: Also, I'm not seeing the advantage to being a Cloistered Cleric over a regular Cleric. Giving up decent combat ability for Bardic Knowledge and a few spells? It doesn't seem worthwhile.

[stack]

Grab turning feats and items. Authoritative vestments are cheap. Reliquary holy symbol and rod of defiance (both MiC) help too.

I actually built a character, level 6, for that campaign. Here (http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=27912). Didn't get into the PBP. The fact he could turn anything may have had something to do with it.

Keep in mind this is over-optimized for turning, scale it back to taste and to get more versatility against the non-undead foes.

[dsmiles]

Keep in mind this is over-optimized for turning, scale it back to taste and to get more versatility against the non-undead foes.Heh. "Over-optimized for turning" is the same as "Almost optimized for DMM Persist shenanigans." :smallwink:

[stack]

Not exactly, DMM just needs turn attempts, that guy is built for turning checks. High HD affected, high turning damage. I've since started running the module, I figure that build would have a decent shot at destroying any undead in the module as a free action. The weaker ones wouldn't even need the greater turning.

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, I only have 6 levels to play with. What order should I go with? What feats should I take (other than prereqs for the PrCs, that is)?

EDIT: Also, I'm not seeing the advantage to being a Cloistered Cleric over a regular Cleric. Giving up decent combat ability for Bardic Knowledge and a few spells? It doesn't seem worthwhile.

Well, you wanna go Human for sure. Grab Extra Turning a couple of times.

The main benefit to Cloistered Cleric is 6+int skills. You don't actually need good BAB or Heavy Armor proficiency when practically everything you meet in EtCR is Undead, and thereby vulnerable to Turning.

If you have a large enough Turning pool, you can pretty much just walk around killing everything without ever lifting a mace.

[Gavinfoxx]

Cloistered Cleric also gives you access to Knowledge Devotion, Law Devotion, etc.

Anyway... turn attempts...

Lessee.. Exalted Turning feat, Destroy Undead alternate class feature, Empower Turning feat, Disciple of the Sun feat, Extra Turning feat, Phylactury of Undead Turning item, Reliquary Holy Symbol item, Ephod of Authority item, Scepter of the Netherwold item, Talisman of Undead Mastery item, Nightstick item, Lyre of the Restful Soul item, Greater Holy Symbol item, Flametouched Holy Symbol, Glory Domain, Sun Domain... etc. etc.

Stack everything you can manage!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872990/Comprehensive_Guide_to_Turning

[Flickerdart]

Get into Knight of the Raven - IIRC you lose nothing by doing so, and gain some combat skills and a sweet raven companion.

[stack]

Knight of the raven is cool, but less optimal for turning if you want to go that route. You lose a few turning levels plus miss out on the greater turning of Radiant Servant of Pelor. On the other hand, its a cool class, gets the neat raven, and fits the campaign.

[dsmiles]

This just in: Book Restriction. PHB and PHB II only.

[Coidzor]

This just in: Book Restriction. PHB and PHB II only.

Well, let's see, that leaves improved turning and extra turning as the only ways to improve that aspect aside from the raven icon that's in the module... and PHBII magic items. Going in as a 6th level character with only mundane or PHBII magic items is going to be rough. *whistles*

Heck, without DMG access you can't even get leadership for a bard cohort to help you flood Barovia with your legions of mules, much less magic arms or armor or a phylactery of undead turning.

edit: ...Probably something that can be done with Cloud of Knives though.

Crown of the Grave from PHB2 seems like it'd be useful against mindless undead for getting them to turn against their fellows/master due to the command undead effect. And for helping make sure that one gets a good die roll on turning attempts so that one's effective HD is increased rather than lowered.

[Gavinfoxx]

With book access, do you at least have access to DMG and Monster Manual 1? How about SRD? How about the character options in the Ravenloft book itself? What about wealth by level? Ask for clarification...

[dsmiles]

He meant for character classes and races. No monster manual. We get standard WBL, and access to DMG items, PrCs, and the Leadership feat (which I don't think I'll take).

[dsmiles]

Okay, I convinced him to allow Unearthed Arcana and the Completes. I'm good now.

[stack]

Well, radiant servant with mild turning optimization will break portions of the module, though there are a fair number of non-undead foes throughout. It would actually be most notable at the very start, I would think. Trying to avoid spoilers, so no more specifics than that.

[dsmiles]

I've run through it before, so you can reference without spoiling it. I think I'm going the turning route, with some dmm shenanigans on the side.

[stack]

In that case...

Anyone who hasn't read/played the module stop reading

The rod of defiance will drop the zombies in the village down from 6 HD to 2 HD for turning purposes if within 30'. That means a regular turn attempt will fry them if you have a decent turn roll. Or a bad one with some optimization. You only need an effective turning HD of 4 to fry them. Circlet of persuasion will help boost both parts of your turning check, so with decent CHA that part should be automatic.

Doesn't do a thing against werewolves, demons, etc, but that's what DMM is for, I suppose.

The vampires won't show up until after you can take RSOP, so between the rod, greater turning, and a few boosters they shouldn't be difficult. The rod entirely cancels out even Strahd's turning resistance (+4).

[dsmiles]

AFB.

Rod of Defiance? How much does that cost, and what book is it in? (MIC is out. There were some shenanigans with crystals in our epic level campaign and there wasn't anything that could stand up against us.)

I was thinking Phylactery of Undead Turning for +4 effective cleric level, Circlet of Persuasion, and maybe a Cloak of Charisma (if I can afford it; I don't know the exact WBL, off hand).

[Gavinfoxx]

He meant for character classes and races. No monster manual.

You and he both do know without access to the Monster Manual, Druid doesn't work? And that several of the options in the PHB don't work? I mean how else are you going to have the stats of the gryphon mount you buy or your summons or your wild shape forms or whatever??

Also, I already named most of the items that help with turning checks, AND linked you to the comprehensive guide to turning, AND the Cleric Handbook! Go check both of them out!

[Sgt. Cookie]

Since you are allowed the Completes, I would recommend picking up two or three (Or eight) surprise weapons. Reason?

Surprise weapons are not wielded in the hands. What use is that? Well, eight extra attacks per round is one thing I can think of.

Assuming a humanoid with four limbs, that gives you eight "slots" for different weapons, two boot blades, two knee blades, two sleeve blades and two elbow blades. Sure, you take a -10 to the attack roll, but you still have your hands free.

Also, they cost a pittance.

[stack]

Its in the MIC. Don't know if it was printed anywhere else. Might check complete divine or champion?

[Igneel]

Its in the MIC. Don't know if it was printed anywhere else. Might check complete divine or champion?

Found it in the Libris Mortis.

[dsmiles]

Found it in the Libris Mortis.

Thanks. I'll see if it's an allowed supplement for equipment (and feats, maybe).

[Keld Denar]

Since you are allowed the Completes, I would recommend picking up two or three (Or eight) surprise weapons. Reason?

Surprise weapons are not wielded in the hands. What use is that? Well, eight extra attacks per round is one thing I can think of.

Assuming a humanoid with four limbs, that gives you eight "slots" for different weapons, two boot blades, two knee blades, two sleeve blades and two elbow blades. Sure, you take a -10 to the attack roll, but you still have your hands free.

Also, they cost a pittance.

SURPRISE WEAPONS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

You only have one offhand, even if you are attacking with weapons that aren't in your hands. Heck, Multiweapon Fighting doesn't even work like that. I dunno where you got that idea from, but its not supported by the rules at all...

How much starting cash do you get? Standard for level 6? Cause you are gonna have a hard time buying the 10,000 g Rod of Defiance at 6th level WBL.

[stack]

Per the MIC (not sure about other sources) the rod of defiance costs 7,312 GP.

[Coidzor]

Thanks. I'll see if it's an allowed supplement for equipment (and feats, maybe).

...That'd be a good idea.

What the hell is going on with your DM that you had all books open then no books open and are now having a back and forth row over it? :smallconfused:

[dsmiles]

<.<
>.>
I started on a flawed premise.
What's important is that equipment is open from pretty much any source (minus the stuff that's only in the MIC), but Race is PHB only, Base Class is PHB, PHBII, UA and Complete (Insert Source Here).

[dsmiles]

So, six levels. Human Cloistered Cleric 6.

Deity: Pelor
Domains: Glory, Sun, (Knowledge)

Level 1 -> Extra Turning and...Improved Turning or Sun Devotion?
Level 3 -> Empower Turning or Quicken Turning?
Level 6 -> DMM Persist? (AFB, can I do that this early?)

[Gavinfoxx]

So have you read the cleric handbook and the turn undead handbook yet? Between those two, you should have the sources and prices or locations for all the turning stuff I mentioned...

With a Sun/Glory Cleric with even a few of the items and feats and options mentioned, you should be fine. Just figure out as many as it is efficient to stack. You might not want the Destroy Undead variant, I just reread it, and I'm not sure it would be appropriate, as the various things wouldn't all work on it... what you want to do is make sure that you automatically destroy undead with normal or greater turning, as much as possible.

Going Glory and Sun and getting Improved Turning / Empower Turning (from an item) / 5 ranks of knowledge religion / Disciple of the Sun feat / Exalted Turning feat, get a Lyre of the Restful Soul ...

You are going to want to invest a lot into your holy symbol. Consider combining:

Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Greater Holy Symbol (Defenders of the Faith)
Sun Disk of Pelor (Complete Champion)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magic Item Compendium)

Getting a Circlet or Cloak of Persuasion is a good start!

Remember your 13000 gp to spend on useful items...

[dsmiles]

Items are the easy part. Anything that improves turning checks, turning level, charisma or charisma checks is welcome.

I'm just not sure which of those feats are going to be more effective at those lower levels. I'm kind of leaning towards Extra Turning and Sun Devotion at 1st, Empower Turning at 3rd, and Improved Turning at 6th. I really want to take DMM persist, but as it stands right now...we can't take any flaws. If that changes, 2 flaws for DMM Persist or Quicken Turning and maybe another Extra Turning.

[Gavinfoxx]

Reread the edited post I made just above yours. You can get Empower Turning from an item. Also, the DMG (look at the errata!), SRD and MIC have rules for combining items; use them!

Don't get Sun Devotion, it doesn't help with turning.
Don't get Empower Turning, you can get that from an item.

Exalted Turning, Extra Turning, Disciple of the Sun, Improved Turning; these help. Also, there are some overtly 'neck slot' items that are also holy symbols in Magic Item Compendium; I'm thinking of Reliquary Holy Symbol. This gets your holy symbol as also the neck slot item. With the MIC/DMG/SRD item combining rules, you can still add other useful things to it.

I don't think you have enough money for a Moonfriend Ring or a Phylactery of Undead Turning or a Scepter of the Underwold. Pity.

[Coidzor]

<.<
>.>
I started on a flawed premise.
What's important is that equipment is open from pretty much any source (minus the stuff that's only in the MIC), but Race is PHB only, Base Class is PHB, PHBII, UA and Complete (Insert Source Here).

You'll want to update your OP then to reflect the full information.

So, just so I'm clear on this, you can get equipment from anything but the MIC, except in cases where the MIC reprinted items. What about item stacking rules from the MIC?

So, Base class selection is limited to the PHB, PHBII, UA, and Completes, and make no mention of PrCs, does this mean that Prestige classes are banned completely or under the same restrictions as far as sources go?

Are feats and domains limited to the same sources as base classes?

What about spells?

For (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141266) anti undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5847863&postcount=3) you're mostly going to be looking at a few things in addition to the phylactery of undead turning.

Libris Mortis for the rod of defiance, scepter of the netherworld, and lyre of the restful soul
Dungeonscape provides the ability to make your armor/shield a holy symbol for negligible cost so that you are almost impossible to prevent from casting spells or turning undead.
Eberron Campaign Setting (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866830/The_Cleric_Handbook?pg=35) for Flame-touched iron material for holy symbols
Arms and Equipment Guide(unupdated 3e) has the Sacred armor/shield property that stacks with itself[so if dastana and/or chahar-aina are on the table, that can add up, but then so does the cost]
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft* has a few items in the module to keep an eye out for.
Complete Champion - Light of Wisdom increases your effective turning level by 1 for every 3 CL, so as a 6th level caster it'll give you +2 levels, and the other Light of X spells, such as Faith, Courage, and Purity can be fairly useful as well. Also from Complete Champion is Turn Anathema, which will let you turn (but not dust) outsiders who are opposed to your alignment.


There's a few reliquary holy symbols and similar "special" magic item holy symbols that might help out as well, but I cannot recall the source of those offhand. I think the Ruby Dagger of Wee Jas specifically increases one's level by one for rebuking, but that might be a MIC-original item, and for both reasons if I'm recalling the item correctly, would be of low-to-no interest.

*Specifically the icon of the raven and the moonfriend ring. Might be others, can't recall offhand, but those specifically deal with turning.

[dsmiles]

So, just so I'm clear on this, you can get equipment from anything but the MIC, except in cases where the MIC reprinted items. What about item stacking rules from the MIC?Stacking rules from the MIC are fine.
So, Base class selection is limited to the PHB, PHBII, UA, and Completes, and make no mention of PrCs, does this mean that Prestige classes are banned completely or under the same restrictions as far as sources go?PrCs are same restrictions. But that gives me access to RSoP and Sacred Exorcist (which, I hear, are very undead unfriendly).
Are feats and domains limited to the same sources as base classes?Yes.
What about spells?No, Spell Compendium is also included for spells, but otherwise, PHB, PHBII and the Complete(s).

OP Updated.

@Gavinfoxx: Ninja edit appreciated. :smallwink:

[Gavinfoxx]

So, six levels. Human Cloistered Cleric 6.

Deity: Pelor
Domains: Glory, Sun, (Knowledge)

Level 1 -> Disciple of the Sun, Improved Turning
Level 3 -> Exalted Turning
Level 6 -> Extra turning

Edited your post for some better ideas... also, remove Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Max knowledge religion, get collector of stories. Wield a Morningstar of appropriate material to overcome DR of the creatures from this module (there are things in the module that have DR silver, DR magic, DR good, and DR cold iron. Silver weapons overcome DR silver, cold iron weapons overcome dr cold iron, magic weapons overcome dr magic, and frystalline, holy, blessed, or flametouched iron weapons overcome dr good. Also be aware of the spells clerics have access to which make weapons count as any of the above!), two handed, and kick undead ass...

[dsmiles]

Edited... also, remove Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Max knowledge religion, get collector of stories. Wield a Morningstar of appropriate material to overcome DR of the creatures from this module (silver? cold iron? flametouched iron? iunno...), two handed,I'm bad with clerics (obviously). (I normally play a beatstick, skillmonkey or psion.) What's Collector of Stories?

[Gavinfoxx]

I was editing that post...

Knowledge Devotion is in Complete Champion; sacrifice the Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion instead. Collector of Stories is in Complete Scoundrel. Look at how high Knowledge Religion, Collector of Stories, and Knowledge Devotion interact...

Remember, Glory Domain gives you access to the Bless Weapon spell, and there is a Silver Weapon Orison (lvl 0 cleric spell) online at the wotc webpage here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/mc and you have access to Magic Weapon spell, of course. So no matter what, your weapon can overcome any of the above... so no actual NEED to choose a special material, if you don't want to.

[dsmiles]

Ah.

I will (as soon as I get back to my computer, which has all the books on it).

[Coidzor]

Make sure to bring silver weapons, actually, as from what I recall, the module has them unavailable for love or money from the NPCs one can trade with.

And if you're not actually soloing the module, make sure to remind the other players.

As when I went through Ravenloft, I was playing a cloistered cleric and not using divine power or fighting, so as to not step on the toes of the 3 people playing melee characters. Guess how many of them remembered to bring silver weapons despite knowing that they would be fighting werewolves and vampires in advance? That's right, not a single one of them, not even a non-MW backup weapon.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, bring a ton of Silver and cold iron weapons anyway...

[dsmiles]

Guess how many of them remembered to bring silver weapons despite knowing that they would be fighting werewolves and vampires in advance? That's right, not a single one of them, not even a non-MW backup weapon.Ouch.

I'm not actually soloing. I was challenged to make a character that could solo it. I'm a full believer in cooperative play, so I won't be doing a whole hell of a lot of fighting. Just turning, buffing and healing, mostly.

[dsmiles]

Whoah. That makes sense (Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories), since turning undead is considered an attack. Excellent. :smallbiggrin:

[stack]

Dont take the disciple of the sun (thats the one that trades two turns for a greater turn, right?) if you are going into RSoP, unless its easy to re-train feats. Not enough feats available to have one be redundant as soon as you hit 7.

[Sgt. Cookie]

SURPRISE WEAPONS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

You only have one offhand, even if you are attacking with weapons that aren't in your hands. Heck, Multiweapon Fighting doesn't even work like that. I dunno where you got that idea from, but its not supported by the rules at all...

It doesn't state that it doesn't work that way, either.

Yes, a two handed creature has one off hand, but nowhere does it forbid extra attacks gained from weapons not in the hands.

And by the way, Multiweapon fighting DOES work like that. Three hands, three attacks. :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

3 hands does mean you get 2 offhands. That is true. 3 hands does not mean 12 offhands.

And "offhand" doesn't mean weapon wielded in your other hand. It means "weapon not used to make iteratives". Armor Spikes can make offhand weapons, despite not being wielded with a hand, and despite the fact that you can wield them while your hands are full.

It doesn't matter if you are wielding 2 weapons or 12, if you only have 2 hands, you only have 1 set of offhand attacks.

Natural weapons, on the other "hand", are virtually unlimited, as long as the limb isn't occupied. If you have 12 natural weapons (like tentacles), you can make 11 secondary natural attacks, because thats how natural weapons work. Manufactured weapons don't work like that, though.

[Coidzor]

Whoah. That makes sense (Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories), since turning undead is considered an attack. Excellent. :smallbiggrin:

Oh. My. I hadn't even considered that before. That'd definitely help the turning damage. Not sure about the turning check itself though...:smallconfused:


Natural weapons, on the other "hand", are virtually unlimited, as long as the limb isn't occupied. If you have 12 natural weapons (like tentacles), you can make 11 secondary natural attacks, because thats how natural weapons work. Manufactured weapons don't work like that, though.

Though if one is really lucky, one gets multiple primary natural attacks.

[dsmiles]

Oh. My. I hadn't even considered that before. That'd definitely help the turning damage. Not sure about the turning check itself though...:smallconfused:


Turning Checks
Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must present your holy symbol to turn undead. Turning is considered an attack.
Emphasis mine. If turning is considered an attack, wouldn't that make a turning check an attack roll?