Charisma and Appearance [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Niek

2012-02-08, 01:46 PM

So I'm playing a character with the following description:

A tall, round-faced, somewhat broad-shouldered woman in her mid twenties. Her skin is a darker shade than is common in this region. She keeps her strawberry blond hair cut short for practicality. There is a faint, faded burn scar covering part of her face on her right side. She carries herself with an air of unassailable confidence.

One of the other players commented that this sounded like a Charisma 10 character, which is is an issue, since she is actually the 21 Cha Marshal of the party.
I pointed out that physical appearance is only one of six factors mentioned in the PHB that go into charisma, and that she is built like you would expect a heavily armored soldier to be, but the other player insisted that I could have made her more attractive to fit the charisma score.
The thing he said that stood out the most was "people who are more attractive tend to have stronger force of personality", which sounds so off base I didn't really know what to say.

How strong do you people think the correlation between charisma score and appearance should be?

kyoryu

2012-02-08, 01:54 PM

How strong do you people think the correlation between charisma score and appearance should be?

Little.

Charisma is primarily a matter of how likely people are to follow you. While it is certainly true that people will follow those they deem attractive, it is not in ANY way the only factor involved in that. Hitler at 18Cha (pre-3e, where 18 meant something!) is the common example.

So, an 18 could mean an incredibly attractive person that people follow for their animal magnetism. It could mean someone who's very persuasive and intellectual. It could mean an "alpha male" type leader that leads by force of personality. It could mean someone that carries a lesser degree of all of these traits, that add up in a synergistic fashion.

Similarly, a low charisma could be indicative of an attractive person that is just plain obnoxious, or a person of average personality that is extremely unattractive.

Ultimately, Charisma should be looked at as "how followable is this person? How much will people to defer to them?" *Why* others will follow/defer to this person is completely up to the player designing the character.

TinyMushroom

2012-02-08, 01:55 PM

I guess it could be a factor, but isn't charisma more about convincing, motivating and manipulating others?

Someone who isn't very attractive can still have a strong, confident personality other look up to. Heck, reading the description, I don't even think she's unattractive.

I think your character is fine the way she is.

NikitaDarkstar

2012-02-08, 02:03 PM

Just take a look at most successful politicians, most of them are fairly average looking, it's how they present their message that makes people vote for them.

On a similar note I currently have one character that if charisma was only based on looks she's be somewhere around 18-20. But in reality her charisma is 10. She's socially awkward, quiet and not really sure how to deal with people other than trying to intimidate and bully them into doing what she wants, and she's not even very good at that. But she looks good, but that doesn't mean anything in most cases.

Really, just tell that player to read the PBH again and then look up charisma in a dictionary( here I didn't for them! http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/charisma ), nowhere is good looks mentioned.

Yora

2012-02-08, 02:03 PM

The most important part of the description is "confidence". That always indicates above average charisma.

Fallbot

2012-02-08, 02:10 PM

Your character sounds fine, don't listen to them. I'm slightly biased what with playing 4E where physical attractiveness isn't tied to charisma, but you should be able to decide what the stats represent for your character. You aren't even stretching the interpretation, you're just emphasizing different aspects of the stat, and that's perfectly reasonable.

I'll probably be ninjad by Serpentine and her list of plausible traits charisma can represent...

Kalmageddon

2012-02-08, 02:10 PM

I think the description is fine, Charisma is a mental ability score after all, so unless you put something abstract in the description (things that shouldn't really be visible but you treat them as if they are anyway) I can't see a way to improve it.

Ravens_cry

2012-02-08, 02:11 PM

Like all mental scores, Charisma can be fluffed a variety of ways. For example, I have a half-orc sorcerer. He's muscular and hairy like a Tom of Finland drawing with tusks, whether that's sexy is a matter of opinion. He's got confidence and pride up the yin yang though, and has successfully attracted quite a (literal) harem.
Charisma could also be fluffed as someone who is classically beautiful, but, just as importantly if not more so, knows the effect they have on others and how to use that to manipulate people.
Think of, say, the spoiled brat who knows how to bat her eyes and lean over just so, getting straight men hot under the coller if you know what I mean.

Grinner

2012-02-08, 02:15 PM

Honestly, some combination of high dexterity and/or strength scores would be more indicative of an attractive character.

Bagelson

2012-02-08, 02:15 PM

Sounds just fine. I always interpret Charisma as a measure of how trustworthy people find you. Appearance may help with a first impression, but not as much as a commanding poise and a dominating glare. Then conversation and interaction will tell you that a pretty face may just mask an empty head, while a regular farmer speaks with well chosen and measured words that cuts to the heart of the matter and grips it in an iron vise.

Conversely, a low Charisma score does not mean that you're frightening. It simply reflects that the way you move, act and speak makes people want less to do with you and are less prone to believe in what you have to say.

Mordokai

2012-02-08, 02:30 PM

Honestly, some combination of high dexterity and/or strength scores would be more indicative of an attractive character.

To those who find such things appealing. Your regular bodybuilder probably has his/her STR score in the upper tens, if not lower twenties and it's totally possible, if unlikely, to have above average DEX. Personally, I have yet to find a bodybuilder that would get me aroused. In fact, I find most of professional buidybuilders horrible to look at, if not outright disgusting. Especially women. No offenst to anybody meant, of course.

As for charisma... when I make a high CHA character, I usually make them beautiful. It's hardly a prerequisite, but I just like it that way. Confidence and leadership ability go a mile where beauty won't. Of course, nobody says you can't have a beautiful character that's also a great leader. In fact, I imagine most fantasy bards are like that.

Churchill had CHA of 18, in AD&D. In 3.5 he would likely had more. And he certainly wasn't beautiful, wouldn't you say?

Deepbluediver

2012-02-08, 02:39 PM

Your force of personality and personal presence are only occasionally dependent on your physical appearence. You can have beautiful but airheaded characters (Paris Hilton, Snooky, Mussolini, etc), while some one covered in scars or other unnatractive physical traits might be a reknowned figure (Abe Lincoln, Hitler, Cleopatra, etc).

Part of the reason appearence is part of charisma is that I've honestly never seen a system that managed to make it an actual balanced stat like all the rest. Most of the time it is substantially underpowered except in a very few, specific situations, and therefore would be even more of a dump stat then charisma is.

If you want to make appearance matter in your game, generate your other six stats first, however you do it (roll, ability array, point buy, etc), then roll (yes, ROLL) for appearance.
If you want it to be more involved/realistic, have players establish appearance scores for their parents, and then add the average of their bonus modifiers to their offspring's ability score to represent genetics.
If you want there to be a cost for attaining a high appearence score, allow players to spend skill points to boost it (to a maximum of 18 at level 1 like any other stat).

Finally, establish a few situations where appearence can have a noticable but not overpowering affect. For example, add your appearance modifier to diplomacy checks but only against creatures of the same race. Bluff checks against members of the opposite gender. Perform (dance) checks, but not Perform (sing) or Perform (instrument), etc. If you want to get tricky, add the inverse of your appearence modifier to your intimidate checks (so a good apperance modifier makes for bad intimidation, etc).
There's lots of little things you can have fun with, like any time you need to make a fortitude save to avoid dying from massive damage, you have a 50% chance to get a large, noticeable scar, which give a -1 penalty to your appearance.

NOhara24

2012-02-08, 02:41 PM

I think it was a bit of an afterthought, tying CHA to appearance. Otherwise the majority of players would be running around with exceptionally (read:stupidly) attractive characters. Rare is the roleplayer who wants to spend time as someone less attractive than they see themselves.

As far as the OP goes, the old addage "Can't judge a book by it's cover." rings true. You have an 18+ CHA but your description of her is only that of a 10? She's average looking but her words are so covered in sugar that they'll rot every tooth in your mouth upon the first bite. You could just as easily say she's the most beautiful woman in the world and retain her force of personality, and hey, her CHA score would support that.

If a player says "My character is very attractive." when they're CHA doesn't support it, I'd agree and say "Yes, they can be attractive as they wish. But their physical attractiveness is inversely proportional to their force of personality."

Someone wants to look like Johnny Depp with 10 or lower CHA? Alright. You're really good looking, but your go-to pickup line is to take your pants off and start pelvic thrusting with the accompanying rhythmic grunts. While maintaining eye contact. And sweating.

All the while, they still have a +0 on the roll if their CHA is 10. Balances it out.

Jornophelanthas

2012-02-08, 02:45 PM

The thing he said that stood out the most was "people who are more attractive tend to have stronger force of personality", which sounds so off base I didn't really know what to say.

Here is the obvious correction:

"People who have stronger force of personality tend to be regarded as more attractive by others."

Try the following adaptation of your description:

Original:
A tall, round-faced, somewhat broad-shouldered woman in her mid twenties. Her skin is a darker shade than is common in this region. She keeps her strawberry blond hair cut short for practicality. There is a faint, faded burn scar covering part of her face on her right side. She carries herself with an air of unassailable confidence.

Adapted:
Here stands a woman of maybe twenty-five summers, whose tall, broad-shouldered figure exudes an air of command. Her relatively dark skin gives her an exotic impression, and contrasts with her short strawberry blond hair. She has a faint, faded burn mark on her right cheek, which somehow gives her appearance an edge of danger. Most people's attention is immediately drawn to her intense, commanding gaze that belies her round features. Her confident smile is both captivating and intimidating, as if she is daring any onlookers to challenge her as she strides by. She is not to be ignored.

I used the same elements you used (only added the smile), but I emphasized her confidence by describing her body language and facial expression. Also, I described the unusual parts of her appearance as adding to her composure, rather than just oddities.

In this way, I believe she comes off less as a "before" in a beauty product commercial, and more as someone who inspires awe from onlookers, even though both descriptions basically list the same set of looks. You be the judge if this description would make the character more attractive than your own. Or try it on your beauty-obsessed friend.

The trick is one of the basic tenets of roleplaying: Show, don't tell. Instead of saying that she "has great confidence", I described the things about her that could lead an onlooker to concluding that she has great confidence.

FMArthur

2012-02-08, 02:49 PM

Male adventurer stereotypes have an easier time with this, whose faces and body shapes can vary wildly on the sliding scale from "ruggedly handsome" to "androgenous" and still be considered attractive by all present.

In all seriousness though, I don't associate Charisma with physical attractiveness at all and do my best to remind my players that it is basically insane to associate them even by game logic. Charisma is a purely mental stat and is always treated as such by the things that actually use it, even if the PHB's description of the attribute and some dumb racial entries soil themselves embarrassingly over it from time to time. The word itself doesn't have anything to do with physical appearance either..

Helldog

2012-02-08, 02:58 PM

A Balor - 26 Cha.
A Marilith - 24 Cha.
They look like that:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG41.jpg

A Glabrezu - 20 Cha.
A Vrock - 16 Cha.
They look like that:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG48.jpg

A Hezrou - 18 Cha.
Looks like that (the big guy):
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG43.jpg

An Aboleth - 17 Cha.
Looks like that:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG8.jpg

A Kraken - 20 Cha.
looks like that:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG162.jpg

A Wight - 15 Cha.
Looks like that:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG255a.jpg

Do I have to go on?

Ellrin

2012-02-08, 03:09 PM

<snip>

I think Mariliths are pretty hot, actually.

Ravens_cry

2012-02-08, 03:20 PM

I think Mariliths are pretty hot, actually.
Can't disagree with you there.

Mordokai

2012-02-08, 03:27 PM

I think Mariliths are pretty hot, actually.

Six arms work wonders :smallbiggrin:

And to counter... succubi and erinye are perfect examples of what charisma can do for looks.

huttj509

2012-02-08, 03:34 PM

A ***** with great **** is still a *****.

Chronos

2012-02-08, 04:29 PM

High Charisma means you're good at getting others to perceive you as you want to be perceived. Now, a lot of folks want to be perceived as hawt and sexy, so there's some correlation between Cha and appearance: If someone wants to be perceived as hawt, and has a high Cha, they will be. But you might also want to be perceived as dignified, or confident, or authoritative, or frightening, or whatever, which is at best independent of appearance (and in fact, looking too attractive might hinder such things). Look at those fiends Helldog posted, for instance: They want you to soil your britches when you see them, and they'd probably succeed (see also, the fact that Cha is the key score for Intimidate).

Strormer

2012-02-08, 04:43 PM

I will give you a perfect example from my own play experience. We had a sorceress in our party who was only mildly attractive with a flat chest and poor people skills, but she was intimidating as hell as was about as likely to melt your face as kiss you. She had mid 20's charisma. One member of our group constantly berated her saying that 18+ charisma should be a woman that roughly looks like a lamppost with two grapefruits nailed to it.
Her character was fine, just not what most people think of when they think high charisma. Its a distinctly American trait, but we've come to associate leadership and attractiveness, mostly due to movies, music, etc. The leaders are the main characters in movies, and the main characters are almost always the highly attractive actors in perfect makeup with perfect lighting, etc. Thus, leader = sexy. You're fine, it's the common perception that need change.

FMArthur

2012-02-08, 06:39 PM

I'm almost getting the impression that the designers grew up with some flawed understanding about what made the popular kids so popular... Like being attractive automatically made you a "people person" or something and that was how populars got popular.

You know, instead of just being outgoing and confident and having any interest-maintaining trait on top of that.

gkathellar

2012-02-08, 06:57 PM

OP, what your fellow player is missing is that it's often the other way around: sure there are some people who are just naturally drop-dead gorgeous, but a lot of the most attractive people seem attractive in the first place because of the way they present themselves.

My experience is that when I meet someone really spellbinding, it's because of the way their personality expresses itself through their body, not necessarily just because of their body. When we use words like "elegant" to describe someone as attractive, what we're really describing is the social effects of their physical and mental relationship to the outside world, not necessarily any fundamental physical attribute. And it's not just a binary scale where self-assured people are attractive, either. I've met attractive people who came across as unattractive because they were physically or socially awkward, but even a shy, socially withdrawn person can be charismatic if those relationships with the world reflect on them positively.

TL;DR: "Attractiveness" and "appearance" are often more closely related to how we construct our social and physical interactions than anything concrete about how we look — charisma, in its social function, should reflect this most of all.

Crasical

2012-02-08, 07:48 PM

Your teammate wanted a cute fighter babe in the party. An understandable vice, but he probably shouldn't have told you how to play your character.

Copper

2012-02-08, 07:54 PM

I think Attractiveness helps your Charisma, but isn't required. I also think different looks can have different impacts. For example, a hulking warlord covered with scars who never smiles is probably good at intimidating but not as great at seduction. On the flip side a pretty young thing with baby blue eyes isn't going to be the best at intimidate.
The sign of really high charisma though, is to be that wispy pretty girl and be able to scare the crap out of someone with pure skill.

Alaris

2012-02-08, 07:56 PM

This is why we run with a seventh ability score in my group. The Appearance score. It doesn't have a HUGE impact, unless you're doing certain things (like trying to seduce someone, etc), and it let's one be...

Beautiful, yet bad with words.
Smooth, yet ugly as sin.

These kinds of things are possible within the world, why can't they be possible within a fantasy world? So... I recommend talking to your DM and instituting an appearance score.

Helldog

2012-02-08, 08:00 PM

On the flip side a pretty young thing with baby blue eyes isn't going to be the best at intimidate.
Cute can be intimidating. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FVbLkOzSbyE#t=531s)

Psyren

2012-02-08, 08:03 PM

A Wight - 15 Cha.
Looks like that:
*snip*

Tsukiko must have been blind :smalltongue:

Do I have to go on?

Nope /thread

Helldog

2012-02-08, 08:12 PM

Avolakia.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110727001015/forgottenrealms/images/c/c8/Avolakia.jpg

Phaerimm.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060515194714/forgottenrealms/images/6/64/Phaerimm.jpg

Guess what Cha...

Telonius

2012-02-08, 09:14 PM

I believe there are some systems that include a "Comeliness" stat (basically, a "how hot are you" measure). The main reason that this isn't statted out in typical D&D play is that it would have a mechanical effect on just about nothing - a number without a purpose. It's folded into charisma, which itself has a (relatively) limited effect on anything but social interactions. (Exception being charisma-based casting).

"people who are more attractive tend to have stronger force of personality",

I'd say the reverse - people who have a stronger force of personality tend to be more attractive. The reason that they say it "tends" to be a measure of physical beauty is that people with a high charisma are usually people with high social awareness. They're more aware of how they come across to people, so they can change their appearance (through dressing differently, makeup, etc) to be able to influence people better. There's only so far this can take you - if you look like a constipated troll to start with, there's only so much that the Avon lady can do for you. But if you're charismatic enough, it won't matter.

UndeadCleric

2012-02-08, 09:27 PM

I just thought of a cool new game: Guess the Charisma Score!

danzibr

2012-02-08, 10:45 PM

I always thought charisma was more like willpower/force of will than appearance.

FMArthur

2012-02-08, 11:11 PM

I always thought charisma was more like willpower/force of will than appearance.

And even this part's so weird because it's not the same as a Will save, or even related at all! The name of the Force of Personality feat to let you use your Charisma for Will saves is even referencing an exact phrase from the PHB's pre-existing description of Charisma. :smallconfused:

Agrippa

2012-02-08, 11:29 PM

I always thought charisma was more like willpower/force of will than appearance.

Actually that's Wisdom, or at least that was Wisdom in 1st. and 2nd. Edition.

Helldog

2012-02-08, 11:34 PM

I always thought charisma was more like willpower/force of will than appearance.
It's more a force of personality. Or rather force of will that you impose on others.

Zaq

2012-02-08, 11:48 PM

Charisma is the score that, if you were to be drawn in a cartoony style, would determine how large your eyebrows are.

The cartoony style may be optional.

DigoDragon

2012-02-09, 08:48 AM

When my wife used to play in AD&D (2e), her group always created a 7th stat for "looks". Comliness I think it was called. Anyway, it helped with separating the distinctions of Charisma for her group.

But anyway, yeah, it's all in the way you fluff your stats.
I once had a player who drew up a very nice looking dwarf lady with the Charisma of 7. Good looks yes, but so gruff and dislikeable that interacting with her was like getting punched in the face with a lemon wrapped around a gold brick. :smallbiggrin:

Deepbluediver

2012-02-09, 09:14 AM

Tsukiko must have been blind :smalltongue:

Love is blind. :smallredface:

When my wife used to play in AD&D (2e), her group always created a 7th stat for "looks". Comliness I think it was called. Anyway, it helped with separating the distinctions of Charisma for her group.

How did they calculate it though? In my post I suggested it be tabulated seperately from the other six, because a lot of players wouldn't care if they look like they lost a fight with a grain thresser, so long as they could deal 1 more point of damage to that orc/chimera/dragon/etc.

Edit: for the new game- "Guess the Charisma Score!"
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG38a.jpg

gkathellar

2012-02-09, 10:08 AM

Edit: for the new game- "Guess the Charisma Score!"
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG38a.jpg

Look, guy, when the monster looks so cool I wish I could ride around on one, then I know the Charisma score is like 20+.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh, come on! Only 17, SRD? What the hell?

prufock

2012-02-09, 10:38 AM

Real world: Being physically attractive makes people like you more than if you were physically unattractive. Observers assign more positive personality traits to you if you are attractive, such as generous, friendly, intelligent, popular, outgoing, good, happy, etc. It isn't necessarily that they have a stronger force of personality, it's that they're perceived that way.

This doesn't mean you can't have a modestly attractive or unattractive person who is personable and charismatic. But if they were attractive, they would probably be seen as even MORE personable and charismatic.

Short version: Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about.

Deepbluediver

2012-02-09, 11:27 AM

Avolakia.
*snip*

Phaerimm.
*snip*

Guess what Cha...
Since they look like a cross between mutant broccoli and Jeff Goldblum in the movie "The Fly" I'd normally say 3 or 4, but knowing this thread it's probably more like 15.

Look, guy, when the monster looks so cool I wish I could ride around on one, then I know the Charisma score is like 20+.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh, come on! Only 17, SRD? What the hell?
gkathellar illustrates the point beautifully (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IncrediblyLamePun), I think. :smallcool:

If you really want to be confused though, take a shot at this one:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG208b.jpg

Edit: If you need to look it up; it's called a Phasm.

Helldog

2012-02-09, 11:31 AM

Since they look like a cross between mutant broccoli and Jeff Goldblum in the movie "The Fly" I'd normally say 3 or 4, but knowing this thread it's probably more like 15.
Both are 20+.

Novawurmson

2012-02-09, 11:57 AM

I remember I used to tell my players that Charisma meant how attractive you were.

Then I looked at the stats for an illithid...

Seriously, though: Attractiveness has little to do with how well you can get people to do what you want. Sure, it can help in the right situations, but just as often, it's a distraction from achievement ("She's such a pretty girl; why does she waste her time as a med student?").

VanBuren

2012-02-09, 12:34 PM

So I'm playing a character with the following description:

One of the other players commented that this sounded like a Charisma 10 character, which is is an issue, since she is actually the 21 Cha Marshal of the party.
I pointed out that physical appearance is only one of six factors mentioned in the PHB that go into charisma, and that she is built like you would expect a heavily armored soldier to be, but the other player insisted that I could have made her more attractive to fit the charisma score.
The thing he said that stood out the most was "people who are more attractive tend to have stronger force of personality", which sounds so off base I didn't really know what to say.

How strong do you people think the correlation between charisma score and appearance should be?

Real world: Being physically attractive makes people like you more than if you were physically unattractive. Observers assign more positive personality traits to you if you are attractive, such as generous, friendly, intelligent, popular, outgoing, good, happy, etc. It isn't necessarily that they have a stronger force of personality, it's that they're perceived that way.

This doesn't mean you can't have a modestly attractive or unattractive person who is personable and charismatic. But if they were attractive, they would probably be seen as even MORE personable and charismatic.

Short version: Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about.

Ultimate counter-example: Winston Churchill. Not a very pretty man, yet one of the most charismatic people of the 20th century.

DarkEternal

2012-02-09, 01:00 PM

Chronos

2012-02-09, 01:39 PM

I once had a player who drew up a very nice looking dwarf lady with the Charisma of 7. Good looks yes, but so gruff and dislikeable that interacting with her was like getting punched in the face with a lemon wrapped around a gold brick.Does the dwarvish bonus on saves vs. poison apply to that?

And DarkEternal, it's tough to roleplay any character with a mental ability score that high. No matter how you describe the meaning of the stats, that's just ludicrously beyond the range of human experience.

Mustard

2012-02-09, 02:50 PM

I like this angle: How does real life "charisma" work? If you see an attractive person, do you automatically assume they are charismatic? Probably not. Appearance may factor into getting people's attention, and initial opinions, but it's really the way that one carries oneself and how one converses (for example: smiling, posture, body language, tone of voice, relating to the target audience, speaking their "language"), that really defines charisma.

Ellrin

2012-02-09, 02:56 PM

I have to wonder this, as well. Charisma is hard to gauge if it's just the force of personality with which you can look like a hobo(without the shotgun) or if it's making you genuinely beautiful as well. I play a child summoner who's like 12 or so years old, and has a charisma at this level of 26. That is practically a godlike amount of charisma, and sometimes I have problems putting that into prospective.

I'm playing him as a guy who bluffs all the time and nobody really knows who he is. To some he is a prince of Anauroch(FR setting obviously, and in my mind's eye he's got the entire arabian nights-beduin thing going on for him), to some he is just a kid, and to some a cunning merchant but it's not that easy to make that charisma "shine" really.

Actually, I think (or at least, it's the way I would interpret it) once you start getting your charisma that high, it actually starts becoming something at least sort of separate from you at all. Call it magnetism, call it mystic attraction (not necessarily of a physical variety!), I dunno, but it's supposed to represent, effectively, how people take to you (never mind the reasons for now), and at that point it's so far beyond what's normally humanly possible that it's become virtually supernatural (not actually supernatural by RAW, of course (unless you're getting supernatural boosts, I guess)).

Dr_S

2012-02-09, 05:23 PM

Really, just tell that player to read the PBH again and then look up charisma in a dictionary( here I didn't for them! http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/charisma ), nowhere is good looks mentioned.

Not that I disagree with your point (everyone in this thread seems to be arguing the same point) but

from 3.5 phb page 9
"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness,
personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

Soooo, a less discerning DM *cough cough my group cough* might interpret that as all of those things are interrelated so looks can be determined by charisma score.

Piggy Knowles

2012-02-09, 05:46 PM

Of course, sometimes WotC forgets that looks (a physical characteristic) and Charisma (a mental attribute) are connected... for example, take a look at the feat Maiming Strike from Exemplars of Evil.

You sacrifice sneak attack damage to deal Charisma damage to your enemy, and the flavor text is that your attacks are disfiguring your opponent, lowering their Charisma. So wait, WotC, is Charisma a physical characteristic, or isn't it? If it's a mental stat, then how come I can drop someone's Charisma by disfiguring them with my sword?

Also, all of the "hideous creatures with high Charisma" examples are cool, but I've found startlingly few counter-examples... stereotypically beautiful creatures with low Charisma. So while WotC managed to successfully assign high Charisma scores to various fiends and things, it seems like in most instances, they've had some major problems assigning a low Charisma to anything creature that is supposed to be physically "beautiful."

Helldog

2012-02-09, 05:50 PM

You sacrifice sneak attack damage to deal Charisma damage to your enemy, and the flavor text is that your attacks are disfiguring your opponent, lowering their Charisma. So wait, WotC, is Charisma a physical characteristic, or isn't it? If it's a mental stat, then how come I can drop someone's Charisma by disfiguring them with my sword?
If you lose your beauty all of a sudden, you will lose your self-esteem and confidence, I'd imagine.