PF Canon Build- Ragna the Bloodedge

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, getting annoyed now. I posted here once asking for help with a nature-themed build and you guys were awesome. Then I posted again, because the DM rejected the build, and asked for cavalier advice. And what I got from that thread was basically "If your mount is gone, you're going to be useless." I also read on the Paizo forums about how the cavalier is basically a weaker, more narrowly-focused fighter. So I dropped that.

Now, I'm here to beg you all for your assistance just one more time. I'm going to try and make Ragna the Bloodedge, from ArcSys's BlazBlue series. I'm actually very excited about this prospect, so I'd like as much help building the character as possible.

I'm going to be playing a magus who wields a scythe and as soon as I get to level 7 I'm going to spam vampiric touch like no one's business. The problem is the other aspects of the character and how to emulate them.

Other Aspects:
Blood Kain: A rage-like state where Ragna steadily loses hit points but drains more health from his victims and delivers more powerful blows.

Half-Vampire: Ragna is a dhampir with heterochromatia. The Pathfinder Dhampir would only weaken my build (gives me -2 Con and Light Sensitivity, but nothing that's really useful) should I take it anyway?

Manifestation of the Black Beast: This one is obviously a stretch, and I won't be surprised or disappointed if I can't use it, but if I could it would be awesome. Ragna's attacks form dark energy manifestations of the enormous hydra that resides within him, including its fangs, claws, head and tail. Would there be a spell or power I could use to imitate this? (I'd rather it be a real effect than an illusion)

Edit: *groans* Never mind...Geez, what's the point of playing Pathfinder if all the Pathfinder-specific classes other than cavalier are banned?

[Drothmal]

Disclaimer: I am not familiar with the character you are describing

Magus usually works better with low crit-high range weapons, since there is a larger chance of dealing crit damage with your spell. Have you considered a synthesist instead of a magus?

If you go in that direction, Dhampir actually helps your casting stat (CHA), and you can use evolution surge to gain appendages depending on the circumstances, much matching what your description of the hydra powers

Not sure about the the blood rage. Check with your DM if taking a dip in barbarian would help. Otherwise, there are ways to expand your known spells..

Second Disclaimer: Synthesist is not a perfectly written class and there are quite a few ... contested interpretations. On top of that, many DMs see it as overpowered since it replaces your original stats (though this can be ameliorated by using your PB to start with the same stats as the Eidolon). It's a great class, but make sure it's allowed

[Dusk Eclipse]

Some suggestions from the top of my head:

If you can get some 3.5 material allowed, try to get the Bloodstone enhancement (MiC) a +1 equivalent that functions as spellstoring but only for vampiric touch, the nice thing is that it auto-empowers the spell delivered through the weapon.

For the rage like ability, there is the spell which you could get from a wand or an item as it isn't in the Magus spell list, as for draining more hp, well vampiric touch says it gives you temp HP equal to the damage you deal, so by my reading it also might include damage done with the weapon (assuming the magus channeling works like the Duskblade)

The half vampire I have no idea.

As for the beast well the form of doom power with a bit reflufing might work; but obviously you won't have access to that (if you had a more lenient DM you should ask to convert it to a spell), perhaps polymorph? I don't know the details of the nerf so it might or might not work.

[NeoSeraphi]

Disclaimer: I am not familiar with the character you are describing

Magus usually works better with low crit-high range weapons, since there is a larger chance of dealing crit damage with your spell. Have you considered a synthesist instead of a magus?


The scythe is part of the character. It's just there for the cool points. Major flavor, you know, grim reaper sucking souls out with his scythe (Vampiric touch).

The hell is a synthesist?



If you go in that direction, Dhampir actually helps your casting stat (CHA), and you can use evolution surge to gain appendages depending on the circumstances, much matching what your description of the hydra powers


Oh, you're talking about a summoner. Nah, I don't want a pet walking around with me, I want to fight by myself (And we're starting at 3rd level). Plus, you can't deliver touch spells through your weapon as a summoner.



Not sure about the the blood rage. Check with your DM if taking a dip in barbarian would help. Otherwise, there are ways to expand your known spells..


Barbarians can't cast spells when they're raging, can they? I don't think Pathfinder changed that...


If you can get some 3.5 material allowed, try to get the Bloodstone enhancement (MiC) a +1 equivalent that functions as spellstoring but only for vampiric touch, the nice thing is that it auto-empowers the spell delivered through the weapon.

For the rage like ability, there is the spell which you could get from a wand or an item as it isn't in the Magus spell list, as for draining more hp, well vampiric touch says it gives you temp HP equal to the damage you deal, so by my reading it also might include damage done with the weapon (assuming the magus channeling works like the Duskblade)


The Bloodstone I guess would help, since it would auto-trigger even if I was raging, but then I would only get the benefits of the rage for one round or so, since I would want to be life-draining with every attack...hmm...Isn't there a way to increase your power without raging?

[Drothmal]

The scythe is part of the character. It's just there for the cool points. Major flavor, you know, grim reaper sucking souls out with his scythe (Vampiric touch).

I completely understand, I actually have a character based on a similar concept (last in my sig)


The hell is a synthesist?

Oh, you're talking about a summoner. Nah, I don't want a pet walking around with me, I want to fight by myself (And we're starting at 3rd level). Plus, you can't deliver touch spells through your weapon as a summoner.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist

You don't have a pet with this archetype, you wear the synthesist as a battle armor or whatever image you have in your head. It is true that you cannot deliver the touch attacks through the weapons, though



Barbarians can't cast spells when they're raging, can they? I don't think Pathfinder changed that...
I'm not very well versed with Barbarians, but I think that there is a rage power that allows you to cast spells while raging. That would require a 2 level dip though. Or you could choose to rage when you are out of spells


The Bloodstone I guess would help, since it would auto-trigger even if I was raging, but then I would only get the benefits of the rage for one round or so, since I would want to be life-draining with every attack...hmm...Isn't there a way to increase your power without raging?
So are you playing with 3.5 material?

EDIT: An attractive idea of the synthesist is that you get STR over leveling up (and this can be further enhanced by evolutions)

[ArcGygas]

Ooh, Ragna. My second favorite character from the series. (My favorite is Hazama, and third is Iron Tager.)

I'd consider a greatsword, personally, since it usually looks like a sword, but scythe works just fine. However, the problem you'll be running into is that Spell Combat requires a free hand to do; so you can't use a two-handed weapon with Spell Combat. :smallannoyed:

If your GM will let you use a two-hander with Spell Combat, go to town! If not, a sickle (scythe, but smaller) or a refluffed bastard sword might work. Although, there are precedents for magical weapons (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html#sun-blade) being usable like other kinds of weapons.

Dhampir would make sense. I'd take it, but only if fluff matters more than crunch. Otherwise, just stick human.

For Blood Kain, you may have to work with your GM to make a spell of your own. Originally, I would've said "just pick up Rage!" but it's not a Magus spell. And while doing it, you couldn't cast spells or use Spell Combat. Maybe convince your GM to make an altered version of Bull's Strength; more strength gain, lose a d6 of HP every round it's up?

As for the Black Beast... Hmm... Well, you could just refluff your spell effects so that they appear to manifest the abomination dwelling inside you. People tend to forget that spells do have visual components that can be fluffed. Just sayin'.

Although... If you're dead set on Magus, ignore this last part. If you play a Synthesist Summoner, you don't have to actually fluff the Black Beast; it's just your Eidolon... Which you wear like a second skin/armor. You do lose Vampiric Touch, though, so the basis of your build gets messed up; although there are certain magic weapons (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html#sword-of-life-stealing) that could fit your purpose...

[NeoSeraphi]

Glancing over the synthesist, I'm pretty sure my DM would give me a big "no" here, unfortunately.


So are you playing with 3.5 material?

I have no idea. But it's definitely worth a try to ask. (I won't be able to get it from the start, since we're starting at level 3, but at least now I know I'll have to get a masterwork scythe)

[NeoSeraphi]

Ooh, Ragna. My second favorite character from the series. (My favorite is Hazama, and third is Iron Tager.)

I'd consider a greatsword, personally, since it usually looks like a sword, but scythe works just fine. However, the problem you'll be running into is that Spell Combat requires a free hand to do; so you can't use a two-handed weapon with Spell Combat. :smallannoyed:

I plan on turning my scythe into a morphing weapon eventually (when I have the money) but for now I'd rather it be a scythe. Fits the theme of Ragna more. After all, what kind of Reaper uses a greatsword? (I like to think of the scythe as his blade's "true form")



If your GM will let you use a two-hander with Spell Combat, go to town! If not, a sickle (scythe, but smaller) or a refluffed bastard sword might work. Although, there are precedents for magical weapons (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html#sun-blade) being usable like other kinds of weapons.


I'd be okay with not getting Spell Combat, actually. As long as I have Spellstrike, I'm good. :smallsmile:



Dhampir would make sense. I'd take it, but only if fluff matters more than crunch. Otherwise, just stick human.


Maybe I can convince my DM to let me change the Dex bonus to Int. Regardless, fluff is pretty damn important to me here, so I might just go ahead and do it for the awesome points.



For Blood Kain, you may have to work with your GM to make a spell of your own. Originally, I would've said "just pick up Rage!" but it's not a Magus spell. And while doing it, you couldn't cast spells or use Spell Combat. Maybe convince your GM to make an altered version of Bull's Strength; more strength gain, lose a d6 of HP every round it's up?


Hmmm...my own spell...not a bad idea...



As for the Black Beast... Hmm... Well, you could just refluff your spell effects so that they appear to manifest the abomination dwelling inside you. People tend to forget that spells do have visual components that can be fluffed. Just sayin'.


True. I might just do that, thanks!

[ArcGygas]

...Maybe I can convince my DM to let me change the Dex bonus to Int. Regardless, fluff is pretty damn important to me here, so I might just go ahead and do it for the awesome points..

That might work. You could also attempt to play a Tiefling, or maybe one of the variant Tiefling heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage). It would eat up a feat, however, so I don't condone such a thing, but I do believe in showing all options.

Dhampir is definitely the way to go for fluff.

[NeoSeraphi]

*sighs* never mind...stupid DM said Magus wasn't on the approved class list...back to the drawing board again.

[ArcGygas]

Make another character from the BB-verse. What other characters do you enjoy?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Neo I think you should ask for the complete allowed list before starting building something else.

[NeoSeraphi]

Neo I think you should ask for the complete allowed list before starting building something else.

Yep, that's what I'm doing. :smallannoyed:

[ArcGygas]

Yep, that's what I'm doing. :smallannoyed:

That's a pretty good idea... Although, I do enjoy the thought exercises!

[NeoSeraphi]

That's a pretty good idea... Although, I do enjoy the thought exercises!

Your avatar just blinked at me!

Okay, so the classes I know are allowed are Fighter, Monk, Cavalier, Bard, Rogue, and Ranger.

The other guys are playing a ranger, monk, fighter, and bard.

I hate rogues. Don't ask me why, not in the mood. Nevertheless, I will never play a rogue, no matter what. So...I don't know what to do. Hopefully those aren't all the classes he's banned. He's rejected my barbarian and my magus so far.

[ArcGygas]

It blinks? Err, is that allowed? If not, I'll replace it... :smalleek:

But, hmm... your GM is incredibly limiting. He seems quite happy about letting you play low Tier characters. I'd consider finding out what kind of things the others are playing (more builds and Archetypes than classes) before committing to another build.

[NeoSeraphi]

It blinks? Err, is that allowed? If not, I'll replace it... :smalleek:

But, hmm... your GM is incredibly limiting. He seems quite happy about letting you play low Tier characters. I'd consider finding out what kind of things the others are playing (more builds and Archetypes than classes) before committing to another build.

Bards are low-tier now? I didn't get the memo.

And the game starts on Sunday, so I only have a few days left to put my character together...

[ArcGygas]

Bards are low-tier now? I didn't get the memo.

And the game starts on Sunday, so I only have a few days left to put my character together...

Right. Bards are still... what, Tier 3? Everything else is still pretty low.

And till Sunday? Well, hope you your GM gets back to you soon; there's work to be done! :smallbiggrin:

[N. Jolly]

Okay first of all, tell your concept that I love it. I've worked with a friend to do a BB build of Ragna, and it's pretty hard. Considering all you've got are those classes to work with, I'd go with Bard. You need SOME magic backing this black beast up, and it's kind of hard to see it working any other way.

I hate to be this guy, but personally I build him as a Warblade.

But anyway, I'd go Dervish Dancer bard (so you only buff yourself just like Ragna, and you add a lot more to it to simulate his combo abilities, as it makes a nice Ragna Awakened mode), go with flavoring the spells as the manifestation of the Black Beast. As much as half vamp would work, I'd go Tiefling and ask your GM if you can pick the variant ability you get, going with: 16. You have oversized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty. That way you're using a Large Scythe, which feels way more "Ragna" to me, as well as getting to pick your stat adjustments. I wish I could think of a way to include some kind of draining effect, but if Bloodstone is allowed, then go for it!

I always saw him as a highly charismatic character myself, so Bard works really well for him, with Dervish Dancer getting rid of the "Bardy" things about him and making him more of a solid melee combatant. Spell selection is a bit tricky, since not a lot of Bard spells jive with the character (maybe ask your DM if you can empower any cure spell cast within one round of dropping an opponent to simulate draining their life force)

Actually, the Hungry Ghost Monk simulates stealing life force pretty well, but since you can't use the scythe as well as other issues with it, you're pretty out of luck with it unless your GM lets you wield a weapon that isn't on the monk list for it. Qinggong Monk with Hungry Ghost would actually be a pretty good mix too if you could get the scythe, since Ragna isn't a huge armor guy, being able to actually drain your opponent upon their kill would really simulate the feel of the character.

Now you're making me want to stat out some characters, maybe I'll do that later.

[ArcGygas]

Ya know, I was wondering how to build Iron Tager. I was feeling Martial Artist Archetype Monk. Or Tetori.

[NeoSeraphi]

I wish I could think of a way to include some kind of draining effect, but if Bloodstone is allowed, then go for it!

The problem with that is that the bloodstone enchantment still needs you to cast vampiric touch into it for it to work. And bards don't get vampiric touch.

Why, if you're using Tome of Battle, would you build him as a warblade over a crusader? :smallconfused: Seems like that would be much better, you're harder to kill and your strikes heal you. Classic Ragna.

The DM has already said that bards don't get cure spells. Dunno why. He seems to think curative magic is divine, which he has banned.

Also, bards don't get scythe proficiency.

To be honest, I'm not really seeing the build here. No health draining, no scythe, no real combat prowess unless the character starts dancing (and I'm starting at level 3, so I don't really have any benefits except Inspire Courage until then).

I hate to say it, but I think bard is a pretty lousy choice for statting up Ragna.

[N. Jolly]

I just like the selection for Warblade more, a bigger fan of the mechanics myself.

And as for scythe prof, you get that for being a Tiefling, since outsiders get all martial profs and such, so that's a non issue.

Again, battle dance is just the flavor for it, I always kind of pegged it as somewhat of a "combat awareness" rather then dancing like Fred Astaire. The lack of V. Touch does suck, but you have UMD, you could pick up a wand for it (?, I'm not sure if it's a wandable spell, I've never been much for them myself).

Health draining is an issue, but really nothing in game aside from Hungry Ghost monk can do that, which is why I suggested that, getting a Ki Focus Scythe (I think there's some old 3.5 feat that let you do that...

Hm, an idea. Take Master of Many Styles as well, since it's stack able with the other archetypes so the fact that you're using a non flurry weapon won't hurt you. Then take some style feats to shore up your combat abilities (I'm not sure how many of them require you to be unarmed, so choose wisely), and now you've got a monk who has a draining attack (Steal Ki), scythe (I'd actually go with the Fauchard, it's just a longer scythe that has an 18-20 crit and reach, which could work for your mid range game that Ragna plays best) if you were willing to take the EWP for it, style feats helping you mix it up in combat, and you've got unarmed prof for his actual fist fighting and such. No Blood Kain per se, but you have Qinggong abilities that could sub in for that. Oh, and the wording on Hungry Ghost doesn't say you have to kill/knock them out with your bare hands, so the scythe is fair game.

Honestly I'm thinking Monk is a better call for this guy. If there's traits allowed, you could go Heirloom Weapon: Fauchard for the guy and get it for free too.

Edit: I heart Tetori for IRON Tager.

[Frosty]

We should try to make builds for ALL the BB characters in PF. I think a lot of them are possible, although I'm not sure how to model lambda-11/mu-12. Carl Clover is easy as a Summoner with ranks in Perform. Iron Tager...would really benefit from a conversion of the 3.5 Warforged, and is probably a Tetori monk who grapples lots of things? Jin Kisuragi is a Magus for sure who loves ice spells. The annoying ninja-dude (momentarily forgot his name for some reason) is a combination of Monk/Ninja with a lot of the Style feats (especially Panther style).

[Big Fau]

Ragna is most definitely a Crusader wielding a Morphing weapon, although the Crusader's toughness is more accurate for his Unlimited form (since he's normally a glass cannon).

[NeoSeraphi]

We should try to make builds for ALL the BB characters in PF. I think a lot of them are possible, although I'm not sure how to model lambda-11/mu-12. Carl Clover is easy as a Summoner with ranks in Perform. Iron Tager...would really benefit from a conversion of the 3.5 Warforged, and is probably a Tetori monk who grapples lots of things? Jin Kisuragi is a Magus for sure who loves ice spells. The annoying ninja-dude (momentarily forgot his name for some reason) is a combination of Monk/Ninja with a lot of the Style feats (especially Panther style).

Actually, I like shaper psion with a heavy focus on the astral construct power for Carl. Makes a lot more sense than a summoner, since A) It's a creation, not a summon, B) It's a Construct, and C) Psionics just seems to fit better, I dunno. It's that whole, instant mental thing. I mean, unless you think that him pointing downwards and shouting "Ada!" count as verbal/somatic components.

Lambda-11 is a construct with telekinesis and minor creation as at-will spell-like abilities.

Bang is an Elemental Fist (Complete Arcane) who focuses on Stunning Fist and setting his fists on fire. His sorcerer side focuses on low level conjuration (teleportation) effects like baleful transposition and regroup.

Jin can't be a magus with a love of ice spells, unfortunately, because there aren't any [cold] spells with a range of touch. (Weird, huh?)

[ArcGygas]

Actually, I like shaper psion with a heavy focus on the astral construct power for Carl. Makes a lot more sense than a summoner, since A) It's a creation, not a summon, B) It's a Construct, and C) Psionics just seems to fit better, I dunno. It's that whole, instant mental thing. I mean, unless you think that him pointing downwards and shouting "Ada!" count as verbal/somatic components.

Lambda-11 is a construct with telekinesis and minor creation as at-will spell-like abilities.

Bang is an Elemental Fist (Complete Arcane) who focuses on Stunning Fist and setting his fists on fire. His sorcerer side focuses on low level conjuration (teleportation) effects like baleful transposition and regroup.

Jin can't be a magus with a love of ice spells, unfortunately, because there aren't any [cold] spells with a range of touch. (Weird, huh?)

I could see Carl as a Shaper. Or Artificer. But really, Shaper makes more sense. Unless we're doing straight PF, in which case Summoner would work.

Lambda-11 is harder to build, and I don't really play her... So, this could work.

Bang Shishigami! He's a Master of Many Styles with Panther, Dragon, and Efreeti styles, bare minimum.

Jin could be a Magus, he's just got Elemental Substitution (Ice).

Hazama is something a bit more difficult to do... If we just make Ouroboros an artifact or a cross between a bag of holding and an item of Force Hook Charge (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/forceHookCharge.html#_force-hook-charge). That's intelligent. But, after that, he ends up being a Rogue Knife Fighter/Bandit, with the Underhanded (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/rogue.html#underhanded*) Rogue Talent and perhaps 8 levels in Court Bard (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/bard.html#court-bard) to get the performance Glorious Epic to make all opponents Flat-Footed... via Perform (Oratory). He's also got ridiculous Int and Cha, for all his social skills.

Next up is Tager... who, really, doesn't need much beyond being a Tetori. Perhaps a reworked Warforged for race.

Noel could be a Dancing Dervish, if your GM lets Guns be used with their abilities. If not, Gunslinger, Pistolero Archetype.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, so I talked to my DM, and it turns out that, in addition to the classes I named already, there was also...wizard. And that's it. So I'm going to play a wizard, I guess. :smallsigh:

He said "All arcane casters except wizards are hunted down to extinction." I personally don't see how anyone could tell the difference between a magus and a wizard, since magus also use spellbooks. The only way to tell would be to see the magus channel a spell through his weapon, and if you're playing it right, nothing is going to live to tell anyone else once you've done that.

Oh well...Wizards have crappy BAB and HD, and they don't get scythe proficiency, so I guess I'll wait for another game to play Ragna the Bloodedge.

[Cieyrin]

Barbarians can't cast spells when they're raging, can they? I don't think Pathfinder changed that...

Barbarians just need the Moment of Clarity rage power to cast, though reworking Rage Prophet to work with arcane casters would make casting even more profitable.

I'd definitely make Iron Tager as a Tetori, with Brass Knuckles enchanted with Shocking Burst.

I also don't see how Magi couldn't just be construed as a specialist wizard. Instead of specializing in a school, they specialize in fighting. Be a Bladebound Kensai and you're a Fighter/Wizard from the get-go without having to sidetrack into Eldritch Knight.

[Frosty]

How would we recreate Tager's magnetism-based powers? Plus he needs his Tager Shot (aka Magnetic Spark).

Tager's spinny super (Magna-Tech Wheel) can be fluffed as him doing Flurry of Blows and spending Ki to add an extra attack? Needs moar Terra-Break though.

Tager needs to have a permanent item of Enlarge Person too.

Oh yeah, we can't forgot Taokaka! How the heck do we stat her out?

[NeoSeraphi]

Taokaka is a catfolk ranger with the Natural Weapons Combat Style and the Aspect of the Beast feat. She enjoys using Leap Attack and Power Attack at the end of a charge (Dancing Edge), and carries a wand of mirror image (Almost Becoming Two!). She has Improved Bull Rush (6C) and max ranks in the Acrobatics skill.

[Frosty]

Taokaka is a catfolk ranger with the Natural Weapons Combat Style and the Aspect of the Beast feat. She enjoys using Leap Attack and Power Attack at the end of a charge (Dancing Edge), and carries a wand of mirror image (Almost Becoming Two!). She has Improved Bull Rush (6C) and max ranks in the Acrobatics skill.
I'm talking about PF only though.

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm talking about PF only though.

Well, is there a catfolk race in PF? If not, you're not going to be able to make her without homebrew. She's not a shapeshifter or a shifter, she's a hybrid cat-human. And she's not a lycanthrope either.

As for Leap Attack, well...maybe there's a PF feat that lets you jump at the end of a charge. If not, you really couldn't simulate Dancing Edge at all.

[ArcGygas]

Bestiary III introduces a cat-folk race. Also, the Mobile Fighter or Savage Fighter Archetypes would work (both from APG).

[nyarlathotep]

No offense but your DM seems to be sort of a douche.

[NeoSeraphi]

No offense but your DM seems to be sort of a douche.

Don't I know it. Regardless, it's been almost a full year since I played a real IRL game, so I'm willing to compromise.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IMO No-gaming is better than Bad-gaming...(I know about it, I was on a dry streak of roughly 1 year and a half before I found my current group, my only regret is that we play Anima and not D&D).

I also second the Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight, that is the closest thing to a Magus it seems...

[NeoSeraphi]

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12691957#post12691957) For anyone who wants to build Ragna.