Serious white raven tactics problem (and possible fixes)

[gooddragon1]

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[KillianHawkeye]

This doesn't work. You can't use your swift action to recover your maneuvers if you've used it for WRT.

[Ernir]

The Warblade recovery mechanic requires a swift action. There are loops, but they are not this trivial.

Still "An ally cannot benefit from White raven tactics more than once in any given round." is a good sanity cap idea.

"A creature can not benefit from White Raven Tactics more than once per encounter" wouldn't be entirely out of order either.

[gooddragon1]

This doesn't work. You can't use your swift action to recover your maneuvers if you've used it for WRT.

Not using swift action. Using standard action to do nothing. Since I used WRT before the standard it's not be used while recharging. It's being used prior to recharging.


standard action to do nothing else in the round

[tyckspoon]

The Warblade recovery mechanic requires a swift action. There are loops, but they are not this trivial.


Idiot Crusaders do it pretty trivially, for example. Warblades need a bit more work.


Since I used WRT before the standard it's not be used while recharging. It's being used prior to recharging.

Warblade recovery requires both a Swift action *and* the standard action/making an attack. Since you normally only get one Swift a turn, this conflicts with using WRT again.

[Big Fau]

Not using swift action. Using standard action to do nothing. Since I used WRT before the standard it's not be used while recharging. It's being used prior to recharging.


You aren't reading the Warblade's recovery mechanic right:


You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.

[gooddragon1]

Ah, nvm, I see what you mean. It's still problematic that you can take 4 turns in a row or more though.

[Big Fau]

Ah, nvm, I see what you mean. It's still problematic that you can take 4 turns in a row or more though.

And their Init gets lower every time. A smart DM would allow other creatures to take their initiatives in between WRTs (obviously only if the Init count gets to that particular number).

It's a bit of an encounter breaker, but not that big of a deal. It also shows that Martial Adepts work well together.

[Siosilvar]

You said it yourself, WRT is a swift action activation.

Swift action WRT + swift (+ standard or full attack) action recovery > 1 swift action. You can't recover WRT and use it on the same turn; the best case I can think of is this:

init 4: Warblade A takes their normal turn.
init 2: Warblade B uses WRT on Warblade A.
init 1: A uses WRT on B.
init 0: B recovers maneuvers. Lacking another swift action to keep up the loop, the round ends.

You still end up with an extra turn of actions each round, but it's not an infinite loop, and it's not any more actions than if both had used their WRT on a non-initiator. It only becomes broken with an Idiot Crusader or a Ruby Knight Vindicator, both of which can use and recover WRT on the same turn. In this case, it is good to rule that one creature can only benefit from (alternately, can only use) one WRT per turn.

[gooddragon1]

You said it yourself, WRT is a swift action activation.

Swift action WRT + swift (+ standard or full attack) action recovery > 1 swift action. You can't recover WRT and use it on the same turn; the best case I can think of is this:

init 4: Warblade A takes their normal turn.
init 2: Warblade B uses WRT on Warblade A.
init 1: A uses WRT on B.
init 0: B recovers maneuvers. Lacking another swift action to keep up the loop, the round ends.

You still end up with an extra turn of actions each round, but it's not an infinite loop, and it's not any more actions than if both had used their WRT on a non-initiator. It only becomes broken with an Idiot Crusader or a Ruby Knight Vindicator, both of which can use and recover WRT on the same turn. In this case, it is good to rule that one creature can only benefit from (alternately, can only use) one WRT per turn.

Actually as many as they have readied and unexpended.

However, the real breaker may come here:

A warblade lvl 1 and psion lvl 19 could get a crown of white ravens (least variety) and use WRT. He could then use fission and with the infinite power points trick and temporal acceleration to cover up the recharge gaps he could manifest an infinite number of powers.

[Ernir]

Actually as many as they have readied and unexpended.

Which would be one. Maneuvers can not be readied multiple times. You do not have maneuver "slots" the way spellcasters have spells per day, instead each maneuver has a switch that says whether or not it is ready to use.

[gooddragon1]

Which would be one. Maneuvers can not be readied multiple times. You do not have maneuver "slots" the way spellcasters have spells per day, instead each maneuver has a switch that says whether or not it is ready to use.

I'm reading it and it isn't becoming clear to me how that works. Where does it say that you can't ready a maneuver multiple times?

[Amphetryon]

I'm reading it and it isn't becoming clear to me how that works. Where does it say that you can't ready a maneuver multiple times?
In the FAQ, if memory serves.

[gooddragon1]

In the FAQ, if memory serves.
Yep :/ first response. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525942/Tome_of_Battle_Q38;A?post_id=331831378#331831378)

[Ernir]

I'm reading it and it isn't becoming clear to me how that works. Where does it say that you can't ready a maneuver multiple times?

They don't need to say you can't ready it multiple times, as there is no defined way to do it in the first place.
Again, maneuvers aren't spells. When maneuvers are readied, you are not putting them into "maneuver slots". You are iterating through your maneuvers known, and deciding which of them have the "ready" flag and which of them don't. This should be evident from reading through one of the martial adept class entries.

[mikau013]

Again, maneuvers aren't spells.

Woah, woah let's not go crazy here. Manoeuvres are spells. The lead designer on the project even said so himself.

- Edit: typo

[Ceaon]

Woah, woah let's not go crazy here. Manoeunvres are spells. The lead designer on the project even said so himself.

And in D&D 3.5, Word of God is one of the LEAST valuable sources of correct information :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

And in D&D 3.5, Word of God is one of the LEAST valuable sources of correct information :smallwink:

Especially since it tries to stop people from abusing poor wording. How dare they! :smallmad:

[Big Fau]

Woah, woah let's not go crazy here. Manoeunvres are spells. The lead designer on the project even said so himself.

Manoeunvres are, but Maneuvers aren't. Key difference between the two.