Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Silverraptor]

Well, I thought I'd try my hand again and my skills have degenerated really badly. Would people like to help me out with some practice and maybe build advice? I forgot everything.:smallredface:

[Legoshrimp]

Well, I thought I'd try my hand again and my skills have degenerated really badly. Would people like to help me out with some practice and maybe build advice? I forgot everything.:smallredface:

I am up for practice. (Edit: in general not at this moment or for like 6-7 hours

Also next saturday we should have a session! or some other day if saturdays don't really work for people.

[Thiyr]

ooh, ooh, I vote for...not saturday!

Actually, most sundays work a lot better for me. Blasted weird work schedule and all >_>;

[Silverraptor]

well, whenever anyone has a schdule they'd like to practice on, let me know.:smallsmile:

[Legoshrimp]

ooh, ooh, I vote for...not saturday!

Actually, most sundays work a lot better for me. Blasted weird work schedule and all >_>;

sundays also work for me although i normally won't be on till 2-3pst

[DarkMemnarch]

well, whenever anyone has a schdule they'd like to practice on, let me know.:smallsmile:

message me and ill practice with you

[Silverraptor]

message me and ill practice with you

Skype me!:smallcool:

[Karoht]

Barcraft this sunday was great.
Leenock won yet again. But the last match had a really cool finish.

Mothership VS Broodlord/Infestor/Ling/Blings.

Mothership dropps a Vortex. Catches a massive pile of Stalkers, unfortunately missed the Infestors, got a bunch of Broodlords.
Infestors proceed to move to safe zone, and unload ALL the eggs they could afford to dump down the toilet.

Vortex ends, Stalkers are surrounded by Infested Marines.
The Zerg answer to the Archon Toilet is the Infested Toilet.


Also, I played Starcraft the Boardgame for the first time the night before Barcraft. Yes, I'm that kind of nerdy. Fun game. Well thought out. Complicated, with long turns. If you play with Conquest Points (first one to X points wins) and Victory Conditions, it's only an evening killer rather than a weekend killer the way Risk can turn out to be.

[BobVosh]

sundays also work for me although i normally won't be on till 2-3pst

Sundays are better for me as well.

[Mutant Sheep]

My Battle.net account got hacked, so I'm out for the forseeable future. I hadn't played anything recently anyway, and I don't feel like calling it in. :smallsigh: BFME2 and Stronghold have found me again. :smallredface:

I was mistaken! (Unless whoever hacked it changed the password back or something). I was lazing around today and decided to try and get into my Bnet account and IT WORKED AND I WAS SHOCKED. I seemingly just forgot I changed my password to it before. (I change passwords like, every 2 weeks. Keeps me feeling safer.:smallredface:) I can actually make the revival session, if you guys want a sucky player who is even worse than he was before. :smallbiggrin:

[Legoshrimp]

I was mistaken! (Unless whoever hacked it changed the password back or something). I was lazing around today and decided to try and get into my Bnet account and IT WORKED AND I WAS SHOCKED. I seemingly just forgot I changed my password to it before. (I change passwords like, every 2 weeks. Keeps me feeling safer.:smallredface:) I can actually make the revival session, if you guys want a sucky player who is even worse than he was before. :smallbiggrin:

We used to have a fairly wide range of skill levels going, but not really sure who will show up so might not have anyone close to your skill level, but we can do team games and customs anyways so skill level isn't really important. So seems like a reasonable time to do it.

So next sunday at 2-3 pst? (when I will probably be able to show up, but I occasionally will be able to show up earlier.) Time is also able to change some.

[Mutant Sheep]

Sunday works for me. Skill level isn't important to me, I'm always with people who are way better than me at this sort of stuff.:smalltongue: I remember we did alot of customgames anyway, and I'm only halfway terrible at those.

[BobVosh]

I should be on about 6 pm central, which is 4 pst i believe.

[Mutant Sheep]

I just did a few coop vs computer games (DONT JUDGE ME!) and I remember alot of the zerg macros I had. Well, I remember the buttons that make queen and how to mass zerglings with a pinch of roaches and festors until I can get enough ultras for a smackdown. Also, medium computers are weak. Probably that one.:smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

Just discovered these AWESOME SONGS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzMhh8zhTiY&feature=relmfu)

this is the one i like most. There are a few more cool ones though (They're in the "Nerd Alert - Songs" playlist)

Really, really fun and well-made.
There are a few parodies, a few original songs. Some are Starcraft-related, others are not (But a love song from Luigi is pretty awesome)

[Kyeudo]

My favorite starcraft song is Bronze League Hero (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USvqaST6PJ0&list=FLHTmOhq-7Ur6XvU2PqlUSTg&index=6&feature=plpp_video).

[Thiyr]

When I'm Grandmaster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH4w7UZV3NA) for me. So catchy.

[Kyeudo]

After about a month of being too busy to play (98 pages of RPG homebrew will do that to you) I finally got back on. I've mostly lost, seeing as I now have lost all sense of timing, but I did play a fun game vs a toss (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jbf0ri66clhy1bd).

Afterward, he accused Zerg of being a "one button race", after having done nothing but hold S for stalker for most of the game. Meanwhile, I built everything but banelings, corrupters, and brood lords.

[Silverraptor]

After about a month of being too busy to play (98 pages of RPG homebrew will do that to you) I finally got back on. I've mostly lost, seeing as I now have lost all sense of timing, but I did play a fun game vs a toss (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jbf0ri66clhy1bd).

Afterward, he accused Zerg of being a "one button race", after having done nothing but hold S for stalker for most of the game. Meanwhile, I built everything but banelings, corrupters, and brood lords.

I can't access it.:smallfrown:

[Mutant Sheep]

After about a month of being too busy to play (98 pages of RPG homebrew will do that to you) I finally got back on. I've mostly lost, seeing as I now have lost all sense of timing, but I did play a fun game vs a toss (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jbf0ri66clhy1bd).

Afterward, he accused Zerg of being a "one button race", after having done nothing but hold S for stalker for most of the game. Meanwhile, I built everything but banelings, corrupters, and brood lords.

I always have a problem dealing with mass stalker, as every race. Massing lings and hydras can only take so much, infestors take my micro from the lings, and ultras are too far down the tree. Marauders need that etch lab I always forget to build, and I always refuse to get into a stalker vs stalker fight. Because while it is comical to see two stalkers fight each other for the right to creep on someone, its annoying.:smalltongue:

[LaughingGnoll]

I always have a problem dealing with mass stalker, as every race. Massing lings and hydras can only take so much, infestors take my micro from the lings, and ultras are too far down the tree. Marauders need that etch lab I always forget to build, and I always refuse to get into a stalker vs stalker fight. Because while it is comical to see two stalkers fight each other for the right to creep on someone, its annoying.:smalltongue:

Banelings do surprisingly well versus large numbers of stalkers. Infestors/Hydra/Ling should be your main response though. I wouldn't worry too much about microing lings if a mass stalker army is approaching, fungal growths are much more important at that point.

Yeah, tech labs are fairly important. My habit is just to get a tech lab on the second barracks/first factory that I build, just so I can get marauders or siege tanks, both of which do very well against stalkers.

Immortals are pretty much designed to be anti-stalker. Sentry/Immortal completely destroys large Stalker armies.

[Mutant Sheep]

Banelings do surprisingly well versus large numbers of stalkers. Infestors/Hydra/Ling should be your main response though. I wouldn't worry too much about microing lings if a mass stalker army is approaching, fungal growths are much more important at that point.
Banelings do surprisingly well against EVERYTHING. Including BC's. :smalltongue:

[Karoht]

What
Rolls over Marines
And makes Zealots Scream
And makes a Splorchedy Sound?
A Ling, A Ling, a Marvelous Thing,
Everyone Knows it's Bane-Lings!
Everyone Knows it's Bane-LINGS!

Banelings!
From Zerg Co!

[Eledragon]

Hey, quick question about HoTS, if I buy Wings of Liberty now, do I have to re-buy the game to play HoTS? (What I mean is, do I have to pay for the expansion?)

[Karoht]

Hey, quick question about HoTS, if I buy Wings of Liberty now, do I have to re-buy the game to play HoTS? (What I mean is, do I have to pay for the expansion?)Since Blizzard hasn't announced any kind of price for HotS, I'm going to answer with a resounding "no one knows"

[BobVosh]

They announced sometime before wings of liberty when they said it would be 3 parts, that the other 2 will be expansion priced. So expect 30-40 for HotS.

That said it was like 3 years ago, so who knows.

[Kyeudo]

I just won my first game today (out of like 5) and I feel like sharing. I went from 30 food behind to 40 food ahead in less than a minute. Check it out. (http://www.mediafire.com/?xylcvp9kvc821p8)

[Silverraptor]

I just won my first game today (out of like 5) and I feel like sharing. I went from 30 food behind to 40 food ahead in less than a minute. Check it out. (http://www.mediafire.com/?xylcvp9kvc821p8)

I want to see, but it keeps saying I can't download because I don't have permission or something. How do I fix this?:smallfrown:

[Kyeudo]

I want to see, but it keeps saying I can't download because I don't have permission or something. How do I fix this?:smallfrown:

Everything on my end seems to be set right. I did a quick search on your problem and the only advice I got was to try clearing your cookies and reset your router.

[Legoshrimp]

So later today (in like 3 hours) I will be on to play sc!! you should join me! if i am not on after 2 pst poke me on steam.


Annnnnd no one has showed up :smallfrown:

[BobVosh]

1. Noone posted a reminder, which tends to lower amount of people
2. It was my dad's birthday, so didn't ditch him for video games :D

Next time it ends up muta vs muta like that Kyeu, I recommend getting +1 armor for mutas. It beats the heck out of the +1 attack that your opponent went for. That said, incredible fungal is incredible.

[Kyeudo]

Next time it ends up muta vs muta like that Kyeu, I recommend getting +1 armor for mutas. It beats the heck out of the +1 attack that your opponent went for. That said, incredible fungal is incredible.

My standard response to mutas is to ditch mutas. My existing mutas can cover me well enough for my transition to infestor/hydra.

[Tavar]

Sorry, my power was dead during that time.

Also, my laptop's acting up, even on stuff that it should be able to run. I might have to look into replacing it soon(about 4 years old, though, so it's had a good run). On the plus side, this might mean I can run games at above min specs.

[Mutant Sheep]

So later today (in like 3 hours) I will be on to play sc!! you should join me! if i am not on after 2 pst poke me on steam.


Annnnnd no one has showed up :smallfrown:

Sorry lego. :smallfrown: Was busy. :smallsigh:

[Kyeudo]

Question for you: What is the Zerg build that Terran mech absolutely hates to be up against in the middle game? I've been trying to get back active, but mech just dominates me in ZvT.

[Mutant Sheep]

Question for you: What is the Zerg build that Terran mech absolutely hates to be up against in the middle game? I've been trying to get back active, but mech just dominates me in ZvT.

LINGS. LINGS LINGS LINGS. (Roaches and burrow is always fun against mechanicals, I think. They spam scan and you have armored units. Their siege tanks be no match! /knows nothing of what he speaks)

[Silverraptor]

Everything on my end seems to be set right. I did a quick search on your problem and the only advice I got was to try clearing your cookies and reset your router.

Tried both. Not working. Guess I'll never be able to watch any of your games again.:smallfrown:

[Kyeudo]

Tried both. Not working. Guess I'll never be able to watch any of your games again.:smallfrown:

I was only using mediafire while I found a new hosting site, since SC Temple seems to have melted. Here (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271099) and here (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271098) are the replays.

[Silverraptor]

I was only using mediafire while I found a new hosting site, since SC Temple seems to have melted. Here (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271099) and here (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271098) are the replays.

The hell? I'm getting the same error message here as I did on media fire!:smallsigh:

[Silverraptor]

I think I may have found the problem. The computer didn't know what program to open the replay with, so it was just giving me a stardard error message.

And... I went in and changed the program path to Starcraft 2 and now it opens up SC2. Yay! But it doesn't load the replay after SC2 opens. Boo!

Why is this becoming such a hassle?:smallsigh:

[Silverraptor]

Oh wait, that website says I need to put the replay file into my replay files folder. Nevermind.:smallsigh:

On a different note, I decided to start laddering again. My first game was a leave in 12 seconds and was a silver league. This game (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271118) was against another gold and I think I did pretty well.

[BobVosh]

You did a really, really good job of spending your money for being rusty and silver league.

That said don't stim all your marines when banshees are around. Just highlight 10 or so and stim them. If you stim 30 marines and don't kill the banshee that is like he did 300 damage distributed amongst your marines and you did no damage in return.

[Silverraptor]

You did a really, really good job of spending your money for being rusty and silver league.

That said don't stim all your marines when banshees are around. Just highlight 10 or so and stim them. If you stim 30 marines and don't kill the banshee that is like he did 300 damage distributed amongst your marines and you did no damage in return.

I'm not silver league yet. I'm still in gold and so was this guy. And yeah, my micro isn't the best. However, I love how I left those handful of marines around my minerals and he flew the banshee back into them and lost it instantly.:smallbiggrin: Also, I was suprised on how well it went when I put down 2nd barracks, orbital, and then the 2nd supply depo. with getting a tech lab and orbital at the same time, my food stayed comfortably around 17 until the depo finished, which was around the exact same time as the orbital and tech lab finished.

Also, I figured out how to watch others replays now, so post them for me!:smallcool:

[Kyeudo]

Here's another one (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271162) of me nearly failing. I don't actually know how I won that. I blame my infestor count.

[BobVosh]

I'm not silver league yet.

Oh, then you did terribly, be ashamed. :P

Seriously though, points stand. I guess I just read your name and thought "silver." No clue where I got it, if not that.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271167

Probably not a very interesting game, but the only game on the ladder of this season. Didn't play last season either.

However I bet you can pinpoint the moment when I realized I no longer knew what to do for late game. I kept the file name so you can realize how often I ladder, for it to be numbered such.


Here's another one (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271162) of me nearly failing. I don't actually know how I won that. I blame my infestor count.

You had half of the map, he had 3 bases. For most of the game. If you didn't win I would have slapped you with a cod fish of disgrace.

[Silverraptor]

Oh, then you did terribly, be ashamed. :P

Seriously though, points stand. I guess I just read your name and thought "silver." No clue where I got it, if not that.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271167

Probably not a very interesting game, but the only game on the ladder of this season. Didn't play last season either.

However I bet you can pinpoint the moment when I realized I no longer knew what to do for late game. I kept the file name so you can realize how often I ladder, for it to be numbered such.



You had half of the map, he had 3 bases. For most of the game. If you didn't win I would have slapped you with a cod fish of disgrace.

Well, I was in rank 90 of glod, this guy was in the top 25. And even after his cute banshee play, I just had alot more stuff than he did. So... yeah. I'm happy.

[Tehnar]

I haven't played in a couple of months, but I found that roach with a mix of infestors with burrow to work well, even in late game. Its very mobile so you can keep up a lot of bases up for that macro advantage; which you will need since you probably trade resources or even lose most engagements.

With decent micro you should mostly lose roaches, and with good macro you are maxed again before he gets with slow mech to your base with whats left of his forces.

[BobVosh]

Well, I was in rank 90 of glod (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Glod?), this guy was in the top 25. And even after his cute banshee play, I just had alot more stuff than he did. So... yeah. I'm happy.

I don't suppose you read Terry Prachett.

[Silverraptor]

I don't suppose you read Terry Prachett.

Npoe. Thanks for calling me out on the typo.:smalltongue:

Yes, this one was intentional.

[Silverraptor]

Well, its happened. I've been demoted to silver league. Yay.

Edit: Actually, being in silver league isn't so bad. I used the knowedge of gold league to know that if my random opponent fast expands against me when I randomed as terran, I can beat him with a 1 base all in. It went swimmingly (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271204).:smallbiggrin:

[Othesemo]

So... I'm not sure who all has been keeping up with the Husky HotS replays, but there have been some great ones. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvI52Y6J2jU&list=UUZ8D7Qvm0YHm0vZKFl-AFdA&index=3&feature=plcp) is one of the best Whitera games I've ever seen.

[Silverraptor]

So... I'm not sure who all has been keeping up with the Husky HotS replays, but there have been some great ones. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvI52Y6J2jU&list=UUZ8D7Qvm0YHm0vZKFl-AFdA&index=3&feature=plcp) is one of the best Whitera games I've ever seen.

That game reminded me exactly what Day 9 said in his daily. Swarm hosts are some of the most immobile units out there that they can't defend very well and can easily get out flanked.

[Othesemo]

That game reminded me exactly what Day 9 said in his daily. Swarm hosts are some of the most immobile units out there that they can't defend very well and can easily get out flanked.

Definitely. It doesn't help that so many zerg players in the replays I've seen just try to mass them and let free units overwhelm the enemy. On the bright side, it lends itself to some amazing come-from-behinds.

[Silverraptor]

Definitely. It doesn't help that so many zerg players in the replays I've seen just try to mass them and let free units overwhelm the enemy. On the bright side, it lends itself to some amazing come-from-behinds.

I think something like 6-8 are fine. I'm actually itching to experimenting to using them for turtling and then transitioning into brood lords.

[Kyeudo]

I'm actually wondering if Swarm Hosts are going to take over for Brood Lords. I'm not really seeing an advantage that Brood Lords have over Swarm Hosts - they cost more, they come out later, they have a worse spawn mechanic, and Swarm Hosts on the move are FASTER than Brood Lords.

[Karoht]

I'm actually wondering if Swarm Hosts are going to take over for Brood Lords. I'm not really seeing an advantage that Brood Lords have over Swarm Hosts - they cost more, they come out later, they have a worse spawn mechanic, and Swarm Hosts on the move are FASTER than Brood Lords.
Brood Lords tend to force anti-air. For Terrans they have Thors, Vikings, I think Warhounds can hit air as well.
Brood Lords might be slow, but they have significant range still. If the Swarm Host units are holding the ground troops in place, Brood Lords are just going to chew them apart.
Swarm Hosts + Brood Lords are going to be lethal enough as it is, never mind if Infestors are involved.

How popular will Brood Lords be? That is a different question.
Swarm Hosts + Infestors are pretty awesome, if the opponent already has air dominance, no point in going for Brood Lords. Muta's and Corruptors might get more play though.

Also, Swarm Hosts + Nydus might become a thing. Which would be interesting. Fill the Nydus with Locusts, the Nydus becomes a bit less of an investment.

[Othesemo]

Also, Swarm Hosts + Nydus might become a thing. Which would be interesting. Fill the Nydus with Locusts, the Nydus becomes a bit less of an investment.

Yeah, that's what the Zerg tried in the replay I linked to earlier. It's pretty devastating.

[Silverraptor]

From what I've seen, the warhound has no anti-air. I think they got rid of that at the same time they decided to keep the thor as is.

[Karoht]

Ah, so they are keeping the Thor. Excellent.

[Silverraptor]

Ah, so they are keeping the Thor. Excellent.

Well, there was the thor when Day 9 was playing HotS ladder on his stream.


@Kyeudo: Why would people get guardians when they had lurkers in Brood War?

[Kyeudo]

@Kyeudo: Why would people get guardians when they had lurkers in Brood War?

Guardians and Lurkers had different vulnerabilities. Brood Lords and Swarm Hosts seem to have the same vulnerabilities.

[Kyeudo]

Got another game (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271267) for you guys. It's been so long since I last did the Brood Lord/Infestor deathball that I got blindsided by some Thor counterattacks. Yes, Thors.

[Silverraptor]

Guardians and Lurkers had different vulnerabilities. Brood Lords and Swarm Hosts seem to have the same vulnerabilities.

What diffenert vulnerabilities did they have?

[Kyeudo]

Try running a pack of stimmed marines up on Lurkers.

The only place where Swarm Hosts might be worse than Brood Lords is assaulting an entrenched tank line, since the Brood Lords can float forward and deliver their broodlings right on top of the tanks.

[Karoht]

Try running a pack of stimmed marines up on Lurkers.

The only place where Swarm Hosts might be worse than Brood Lords is assaulting an entrenched tank line, since the Brood Lords can float forward and deliver their broodlings right on top of the tanks.
And like Lurkers, solid detection and scouting goes a long way to surviving their onslaught. Especially if Swarm Hosts get to Burrow + Move.

I shudder to think of how effective Swarm Hosts + Banelings will be.

[Tehnar]

I think swarmhosts will be great as a harass unit and as a stepping stone to later tech; a way to delay that push before broodlords/ultras.

I don't think they would replace broodlords, they compliment them.

[Gandariel]

Meh, in my total noob opinion, Swarm Hosts are kind of weak.
They look really cool, but i really don't see them working.
Scouting? just have a few Lings patroling.
Harass? After enough time every race has enough ranged units to deal with locusts with minimal(zero) losses (unless you decide to mass Swarm hosts).

The only time i really see them as effective is how i saw them played in the presentation video. Burrow them near a ledge, they spawn locusts which head straight to the enemy tank + bunker line. Tank fire does collateral damage to their own structures too.
And that's cool.
(Although i'd say this could be replicated with zerglings as well)

Also, if you invest too much in them they're very vulnerable (they're slow and take some time to burrow and drop the first set of units) and not really good as an attacking unit: you'd need a lot of other units to protect them while they advance, burrow and begin spawning.

That being said, if they get burrow + move they'd be really good, in mass. And also that Nydus worm thing looks cool

[Kyeudo]

Meh, in my total noob opinion, Swarm Hosts are kind of weak.
They look really cool, but i really don't see them working.
Scouting? just have a few Lings patroling.
Harass? After enough time every race has enough ranged units to deal with locusts with minimal(zero) losses (unless you decide to mass Swarm hosts).

The only time i really see them as effective is how i saw them played in the presentation video. Burrow them near a ledge, they spawn locusts which head straight to the enemy tank + bunker line. Tank fire does collateral damage to their own structures too.
And that's cool.
(Although i'd say this could be replicated with zerglings as well)

Also, if you invest too much in them they're very vulnerable (they're slow and take some time to burrow and drop the first set of units) and not really good as an attacking unit: you'd need a lot of other units to protect them while they advance, burrow and begin spawning.

That being said, if they get burrow + move they'd be really good, in mass. And also that Nydus worm thing looks cool

You don't scout or harass with Swarm Hosts any more than you scout or harass with Siege Tanks. That would be stupid.

Swarm Hosts, from everything I've been seeing, are potent in a straight up fight. As soon as they are burrowed, they put up an endlessly regenerating wall of meat that synergizes well with roaches, hydralisks, and infestors. They can push hard, they can defend better than almost anything in the Zerg arsenal, and they are still fairly mobile. They can even advance under cover of their own units.

Almost anything you've ever seen Terrans do with Siege Tanks, you can do with Swarm Hosts. Unless you consider Siege Tanks to be weak, don't mock the Swarm Host.

[Silverraptor]

Another game of playing silver league. (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271346) Keep in mind that I'm playing as random, and I recognize my play is really bumpy compared to my gold play. But mainly I just need to retrain my fingers on where the buttons are.

[Karoht]

@Swarm Hosts are Kind of Weak
The following is not a personal attack against the person who said that. Please do not be offended, I'm merely responding to your quote as it stuck out well.

I've seen 5 of them hold out against an impressive number of Stalkers (10+) with Zealot support(also 10+). And the free units it spawns were weakening their opponents with every wave. And said opposition was not actually gaining ground.

When you do have enough to gain ground, you do it one of two ways. You still make very slow progress towards the Swarm Hosts and are completely engaged in killing them (making one crazy vulnerable to all kinds of counter attack) or you steamroll them like they weren't there. The fun thing is, the number of units required to steamroll even the afforementioned 5 swarm hosts was eventually some 20+ stalkers, 5 immortals, and 10+ zealots.

2 Swarm Hosts can absolutely wreck a Gateway walloff in about 3 waves, and that isn't very much time. They chew through Zerglings easily enough, Marines are fodder, Marauders with concussion grenades seem to do decently but will still take damage, even siege tanks have a rough time of it holding out against these things. And they are the perfect cover for banelings to roll in behind even if there are siege tanks in high number.
Colossi don't even do that great against them.

Don't get me wrong, they're expensive (200M 100G I think?). But they are early game tech, and two of them alone can contain another player in the early game. They also force the opponent to get detection in the early game if they actually want to stop the onslaught and maybe get out and expand. So to even leave your first base you have to get detection (easy enough for terran, earlier robo for protoss, overseer for zerg in the early game seems a bit odd), so you are down those resources and time to even do anything about it.

And god help you if an opponent succeeds in getting a drop of even one of these things in your base.

[Silverraptor]

Another game of playing silver league. (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271346) Keep in mind that I'm playing as random, and I recognize my play is really bumpy compared to my gold play. But mainly I just need to retrain my fingers on where the buttons are.

My zerg skills seem to be coming back faster. (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271350) I almost won a PvZ, but I lost when I realized I had only 6 gateways and was floating 3k minerals. :P

[Stille_Nacht]

High diamond->
Swarmhosts i think are a nice complement to the zerg. They seem like they are very effective at delaying drops, and i see potential for some cool ambush or hidden flank tactics if you place them right. i don't see them as a replacement for broodlords.
While they attack in a similar manner, their function is completely different, simply by virtue that broodlords are air, and do more damage by virtue of a much higher relative attack speed, and can effectively create a wall after attacking for a second (well they should have higher damage after the patches). The positioning and pushing power is completely different.

I'd say that swarmhost all in (and that's what it is if they are still on two base in PvZ) is very effective, but if scouted it can easily be hardcountered by phoenix or simply by 4gating (hits before host pops out). Unsure what other hard-counters there are, don't have a beta so cant test ><.
Maybe stargate will become standard again to mitigate this possibility tho (which is something i really like, requires high apm n shet 8D)

also, warhound was removed <3

[Silverraptor]

also, warhound was removed <3

Nope, they're still there. It just can't attack ground.

In other news, when fast expanding, don't prevent your opponent from the ability to also fast expand. (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271358) They just might say screw expanding and go all in.:smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

Made it back to Platinum, 7th in my division ATM :D
Oddly, my last 3 games have been against Silver, Gold, Plat, in that order.

I can assume the other Gold was high rank, and that the plat was low rank, but what sins did that poor Silver commit to warrant the matchmaker set me upon him?

[Thiyr]

So. Beta patch notes are interesting, even for those of us who aren't beta-ing.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368782

Of note: Warhound is out of the beta entirely for the moment. Carriers are back. Tempests are changed. Swarm hosts are nerfed slightly.

Discuss?

[Kyeudo]

Immortal
•Immortal Hardened Shield will now reduce the warhound’s Haywire Missile damage.

Warhound
•This unit has been removed from the game.

Wat.

[LaughingGnoll]

So. Beta patch notes are interesting, even for those of us who aren't beta-ing.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368782

Of note: Warhound is out of the beta entirely for the moment. Carriers are back. Tempests are changed. Swarm hosts are nerfed slightly.

Discuss?

Spoilered by Race to save space.


Zerg

I fell like the Swarm Host nerf isn't THAT bad. Sure, it's one less range, but I feel like Locusts are supposed to be behind the Zerglings, and in front of Roaches and Hydras. Plus it will reduce overall damage we've seen in the beta so far, where 8-15 Swarm Hosts can destroy just about anything that isn't air, since they'll have to get closer to start attacking.


Terran

I'm not TOO surprised that they removed the warhound. The design concept was something that would be great against Mechanical units, but it was too good all around. It had more health, did more damage, and was more mobile than the siege tank, which just made it good against just about everything. I thought they would nerf the damage, something like 10 (23 vs. Mechanical) or something like that, but I guess they are taking it back entirely.

Anyone else think they're trying too hard to make Reapers work? First they gave it Combat Drugs, now they're letting them see up cliffs. I suppose it would be cool if you could use Reapers to spot for low-ground Siege Tanks, and it would definitely help deciding whether or not you want to harass a certain area given on where the defences are.

The Hellion change feels ... weird. So if I've read the patch correctly, normal Wings of Liberty Hellions will be available when a factory is built, as usual. However, the Battle Hellion is a Factory + Tech Lab unit, and the ability to transform from one to the other is an upgrade. Meaning that you could build two factories, one with a reactor, one with a tech lab, and get both battle hellions AND normal hellions, which can't transform into each other.

IF the above assumptions are true, I think it will allow for people to be more specific if they want to spawn a Battle Hellion or a Normal Hellion, which is one of the weird questions I've heard tossed around. But I think that the upgrade may not ever be researched, from the replays I've seen so far, people either use Normal Hellions OR Battle Hellions. I haven't seen a lot of transforming go around, except for when the unit spawns. So it's an interesting change, I just wonder if that upgrade will ever be used.

The Widow Mine being reduced from the Armory requirement seems scary to me. Cloaked units which do lots of damage as soon as a Tech Lab Factory is built? Sound like a faster Banshee rush if you ask me. Though maybe I'm just overreacting.



Protoss

Tempests and Carriers working together? I feel like this is a better approach to what the designers wanted when they announced mostly air units for Protoss. Both are powerful late-game units which will probably destroy anything that doesn't have ridiculous numbers against it (ie mass viking/corrupter). I'm kind of sad that they removed the absurd range on it though, it felt like using the insane range as well as the abilities on the Oracle could have made it a very good late-game harassing unit, but from what I've seen in casted games so far that wasn't happening.

The new Oracle ability sounds cool, but I don't think it'll be very useful. A 5 second duration won't protect against much, especially since most of the abilities that I think players would want to block, namely Fungal Growth, usually isn't cast several times in a row where a 5 second immunity will make Fungals vs. Protoss a lot harder. I suppose it depends on the range of the effect though. If it's the same/similar to Guardian Shield than it could work really nicely, but I feel like the Oracle's fragility is the main issue here. If Blizzard REALLY wants to see more Oracle play, they need to give it a health/shields buff like they did with the Warp Prism through the patching of Wings of Liberty. The Oracle is practically made of balsa wood, I think that's the real reason people aren't using it.

[Acanous]

Mhm. Widow Mines are going to be brutal when you can rax in a tech lab then plant a factory there. We're looking at 3 minute games, here.

[LaughingGnoll]

Immortal
•Immortal Hardened Shield will now reduce the warhound’s Haywire Missile damage.

Warhound
•This unit has been removed from the game.

Wat.

Yeah, the wording has everyone thrown off. Maybe they'll give the Haywire Missile to a different unit and then repurpose the Warhound?

This (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6521293507) actually has a cool suggestion to switch the focus points of the Warhound and Thor. TL;DR = Thors get Haywire Missile, lose Strike Cannon abilities and AA, and Warhounds take over the AA role for Terran Mech, making Thors the heavy frontline hitters they're supposed to be, and making the Warhounds an AA support unit for Mech armies like the Thor is turning out to be now.

[Acanous]

would certainly make Terran Mech a little cheaper.

[Thiyr]

IIRC, they explicitly are patching (and writing patch notes) a lot faster due to it being a beta, in an attempt to get a wider base of knowledge of how things work out, so the quality of some things drop. Such as the immortal taking less damage from things that don't exist anymore.

As far as actual changes, figure I'll toss my thoughts in now. I didn't see a whole ton of swarm host (haven't been watching too much HotS stuff, mostly just basing my opinions on the numbers I'm seeing sofar and 1 or 2 games), but it seems reasonable.

Oracle's new spell makes me jump for joy, both because it makes the oracle not boring and it gives a way to deal with fungal.

Tempest change makes the unit kinda not suck. Considering that its DPS before this was less than a single stimmed marine to a single target, it was pretty damn useless even with that huge range. Now it has a chance to be useful, though I'm not sure if it'll be quite enough to make it worthwhile.

Woo carrier is back. Seeing as how it was rarely used before, I can only slightly see the metagame changing around the carrier unless some other change (coughbuildtimecough) happens.

Warhound, from what i hear, was nuts. I'd like to see it back in a less nutty fashion, but letting beta be tested while they overhaul it is a good idea imo.

I want to see reapers used more, and this may help

Not sure about battle hellions

And not sure about widow mines either.

So really, my opinions are limited to my main race. Which is sad and must be remedied!

[KuReshtin]

World Championship Series streamed live from Stockholm, Sweden right now.
Final day, with the Spanish brothers Lucifron and Vortix being in the final bracket along EGStephano, waiting for BabyKnight [Denmark] va Lowely [Belarus] to see who will join them.

Link here. (http://dreamhack.tv/?v=108)

[Mutant Sheep]

We doing a meetup thingey? I dunno if we are but I could make it tonight/this afternoon. Mostly. :smallsigh:

[Stille_Nacht]

imo widow mines arent so bad, they essentially only hit one unit, though it does peeve me that you can't micro against them at all from what i have seen :l.

i like removing the warhound. Simply put, warhounds were a high damage, high range, high hp mobile unit. wat. I just dont feel comfortable with the roles warhounds performed as essentially: super marauders in mech. And seeing as right now, we can only judge things by their roles, warhound rated quite poorly. It didn't feel "mech"-y. no careful positioning, not keen army awareness, just a-move :l.
unless they completely rework the unit, i'm glad it's gone.

if they buff the carrier it could become a very viable capital ship, like BC in megaultra late game. so i'm kinda excited about that, i guess. It could be a nice way to counter broods when the slug fest gets there.
just make interceptors free (or better yet, labelled as "neutral unit" by the AI), maybe reduce build time a smidge... something.

i like battle hellion transform being an upgrade you have to research, it was sort of irritating that suddenly a mobile weak harass unit can turn into a tanky unit :l.

like the oracle change. i don't know if this is racial bias, but i always felt like neuraling a mothership is not something that should be allowed to happen :l, just seems a little too extreme you know?

honestly, i don't like the design philosophy of the tempest at all...as of now, it's an extremely long range brood lord sniper.... why is this even a unit?. Either it can do its job with its damage in which case IMO it is kinda OP (taking out the zerg army's dps while sitting back and giggling?), or it can't really do its job and is a big 300/300 hunk of junk.
i just don't like it's non-flexibility on all fronts.
i guess it might be cool to see people expertly zone and control their tempests separately, but the unit design just seems off. Not quite as bad as giving super marauders to mech, but close


but enough negativity! i love love love swarmhosts! i wasnt sure about it when they came out, cus i thought they might be kinda weird, but after i see sheth utilize them for defense, slowing, zoning, and even offense, i like the unit a lot, even more than lurkers

[Kyeudo]

I just got cannon rushed, six gated, forgot zergling speed until the 24 minute mark, . . . and I won anyway. (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271556)

[Thiyr]

I will say this. Pre patch I was tempted to move to Terran post hots, cause I wasn't really excited by the other races. Post, I'm satisfied with sticking toss. I don't see the tempest being really nuts, tbh, but not really busted either. It deals with BL nicely, but it doesn't really deal with many other huge threats. Its damage is laughable on non massive units (lower dps than a stimmed marine), so over committing to them is a huge risk, ESP when otherwise the tech path can be a risky choice vs ground. I can see it being useful without being an autowin at least.

Though now that I think about it, why do reapers see as little play as they do now in WoL? Just because they're not getting speed fast enough and get countered too easy?

[Kyeudo]

Its damage is laughable on non massive units (lower dps than a stimmed marine), so over committing to them is a huge risk, ESP when otherwise the tech path can be a risky choice vs ground. I can see it being useful without being an autowin at least.


Aren't Tempests splash damage, though? Siege Tanks actually have better single target dps when unsieged, but their splash and rediculous long range makes up for their immobility. Tempests might be something of the same mindset.

[Karoht]

@Tempest
Long Range, feels like it should be used for hit and run rather than a constant stream of damage. Kind of thing where you fire off a salvo from the Tempests and then follow it up with some Stalkers blinkinging into position.

@Swarm Hosts
Looks like it's in a good place.

@Warhound
I liked the look, I liked the missiles. I hope it comes back.

@Oracle
Caught a game where someone was making use of it. Looks keen.

@Reapers
I miss seeing Reapers. I really do. I want to see them used at the competative level, but I doubt that will happen.

[Silverraptor]

Aren't Tempests splash damage, though? Siege Tanks actually have better single target dps when unsieged, but their splash and rediculous long range makes up for their immobility. Tempests might be something of the same mindset.

No. Tempest are not splash damage. It was then that I questioned why we would build them.

[Othesemo]

No. Tempest are not splash damage. It was then that I questioned why we would build them.

Mineral line harassment? You'd be out of the range of any missile turrets and the like, I suppose. If you caught them out of position, you might be able to do some decent damage.

[Karoht]

No. Tempest are not splash damage. It was then that I questioned why we would build them.Huh. Odd.
Do you have a source on that? I'm on a computer at work, can't go looking myself.

[Stille_Nacht]

When i think about tempests the first thing that pops into my head, always is:

They cost 300/300 + fleet beacon investment + starport investment.

This needs to weigh heavily on your mind when you talk about the tempest. It costs a tonne of money, and you essentially only get whatever small harass you can do with them before you "lose" the investment (as soon as a big fight happens). (vT)
Has anyone seen tempests really harass effectively? it is really easy to pick off observers, and in high level games, i have seen max 10 or so workers die to them.
Tiny hit and run attacks that do barely any damage? maybe pick off some marines? a single tank? totally not worth it.

tempests are a bad unit for anything besides sniping broods atm IMO (and even then, they aren't great). And there, i could see them being too good if you can make the armies dance around each other. (it is possible that skilled toss would essentially force ultras) (though damage is a bit too low this patch).

overall i just dont like the unit design. Long range, mobile capital ship... it's like the warhound- long range, mobile, tanky mech unit (except they gimped it early on instead of making it op)

edit: tempest splash was removed long ago (and seriously, slow capital ship that only counters mutas is even worse than what we currently have)

[Kyeudo]

I'd like to see the splash put back in. Then they can basically do the same thing as a Colossus, but with different considerations.

[Silverraptor]

Huh. Odd.
Do you have a source on that? I'm on a computer at work, can't go looking myself.

Yes, I was watching Day 9's stream on tempests and noted closely the healthbars of everything around it. A group of marines fell one by one, not looking like someone hit them with a fly swatter.

[Silverraptor]

Kyeudo, I just saw you're name in the day 9 chat!:smallbiggrin:

[Kyeudo]

Yes, I'm there.

[Silverraptor]

Yes, I'm there.

Wow. That second game. He was Amazing!

[Kyeudo]

Wow. That second game. He was Amazing!

He's a grandmaster in 3 races. He'd better be amazing.

[Thiyr]

I'd like to see the splash put back in. Then they can basically do the same thing as a Colossus, but with different considerations.

I don't know if I'd like straight splash damage, but some kind of multi-unit damage would be nice. Either a bounce, like mutas, or if we're feeling really fancy a line of damage like hellions. The last one interests me the most just because it makes its large range -interesting-, even if it has a low damage, by making getting closer something you almost -want- to do if you're trying to get more damage out of it.

[Spuddles]

Yeah, the wording has everyone thrown off. Maybe they'll give the Haywire Missile to a different unit and then repurpose the Warhound?

This (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6521293507) actually has a cool suggestion to switch the focus points of the Warhound and Thor. TL;DR = Thors get Haywire Missile, lose Strike Cannon abilities and AA, and Warhounds take over the AA role for Terran Mech, making Thors the heavy frontline hitters they're supposed to be, and making the Warhounds an AA support unit for Mech armies like the Thor is turning out to be now.

Goliath online.

[LaughingGnoll]

He was a grandmaster in 3 races. He'd better be amazing.

Correction mine. Even he's stated openly that his play isn't that good, since that outdated fact has gotten him in quite a bit.

[Silverraptor]

Wait. Next funday monday, No gas until 3 bases. Kyeudo, are you doing this? Isn't this like your core build?:smallsmile:

[Kyeudo]

Nope, not anymore. And its 4 bases for zerg.

I was going to give it a try, but work got in the way.

[Silverraptor]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I immediately get onto the ladder after hearing the funday monday topic was attack with only drops, but air harassment is fine. I end up with this perfect jewel from lowly silver league where I fail multple times in the game, yet still follow the constraints of funday monday. (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271914) Oh, if Day 9 chooses this daily, I'll be so happy!:smallbiggrin:

Edit: Just when I thought I couldn't laugh any harder. (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=271915) Its not funday monday, but its a huge fail from a gold player!:smallbiggrin:

[DarkMemnarch]

Hello all, I haven't posted here in a while because I was with silverraptor in the middle of nowhere, but i have decided to post replays again and give advice to people who want it.

Here are some replays against some people. I bet you cant find the mistake i make in replay 2

replay 1 (http://www.mediafire.com/?35g8f8527p24e3m)
replay 2
(http://www.mediafire.com/?9otwz1vq57wwium)
replay 3 (http://www.mediafire.com/?7id9vr02ioii5cc)

[Mutant Sheep]

You made a worker .5 seconds too slow. :smallamused:

[Silverraptor]

You made a worker .5 seconds too slow. :smallamused:

I thought it was not taking his second gas in his main.:smalltongue:

[DarkMemnarch]

I thought it was not taking his second gas in his main.:smalltongue:

That was the mistake I thought was the worst throughout that game

[Silverraptor]

That was the mistake I thought was the worst throughout that game

Yeah. Its not like you explained that to me in skype before you made that post.
<.<
>.>

By the way, replays. Post. Now!

[BobVosh]

NO! Instead tomorrow we have a GiTP session. Even if no one else is here I will be checking the GiTP channel every 15 minutes while I play even more silly amounts of FTL. 38 hours so far, which is probably more than I played all other games the month before.

[Mutant Sheep]

Oh, a gitp thang. I can die to people who don't spam "nub" when they win! :smalltongue:

[Silverraptor]

Oh, a gitp thang. I can die to people who don't spam "nub" when they win! :smalltongue:

Really? I almost never have that happen to me. Unless its LoL, then I report them.

[BobVosh]

Really? I almost never have that happen to me. Unless its LoL, then I report them.

Lol nub
10 characters

[Silverraptor]

Lol nub
10 characters

Reported.
lol jk

[BobVosh]

Oh, btw I wasn't calling you a nub in LoL, just a generally lolling at you for being a nub. Hope that helps. :D

[Silverraptor]

Oh, btw I wasn't calling you a nub in LoL, just a generally lolling at you for being a nub. Hope that helps. :D

I know. I was joking in return.:smallwink:

[BobVosh]

I know. I was joking in return.:smallwink:

YOU KNOW NUTHINK!

[DarkMemnarch]

I was just able to beat some masters level people of each race, I think I might be getting a promotion soon if that keeps up(hopes and prays). I uploaded the replays because silveraptor keeps pestering me about uploading more.

vs masters protoss (http://www.mediafire.com/?cabu78q7qn0cgnm)
vs masters terran (http://www.mediafire.com/?av173ahl3p8ds7x)
vs masters zerg (http://www.mediafire.com/?ktvrj7ir12iatzv)

I am open to any advice you want to give, so comment if you want to. Everyone except for silveraptor because reasons.

[Silverraptor]

I was just able to beat some masters level people of each race, I think I might be getting a promotion soon if that keeps up(hopes and prays). I uploaded the replays because silveraptor keeps pestering me about uploading more.

vs masters protoss (http://www.mediafire.com/?cabu78q7qn0cgnm)
vs masters terran (http://www.mediafire.com/?av173ahl3p8ds7x)
vs masters zerg (http://www.mediafire.com/?ktvrj7ir12iatzv)

I am open to any advice you want to give, so comment if you want to. Everyone except for silveraptor because reasons.

I'll comment ANYWAY!!! You can't stop me!:smallmad::smalltongue:

[Mutant Sheep]

THINGEY TODAY? :smallbiggrin:

[BobVosh]

I have begun, join us!

[Mutant Sheep]

*yaaaays*

*has to be somewhere in 50 minutes*

*sads*

[BobVosh]

It was 4 of us for most of the time, hopefully that is a sign that it will grow again to its former numbers

[Thiyr]

even if only 4 people, I still had a good time.

[BobVosh]

Holy carp, may you swim forever, the forums are back. And significantly quicker too. Anyway, session tomorrow.

[Gandariel]

Are there some European Starcraft II players here to play with? we can have our own Starcraft Sunday Something!

[BobVosh]

I can't wait for HotS when we can tear down this wall between us. Or swim this ocean, or whatever the metaphor should be.

[Silverraptor]

I can't wait for HotS when we can tear down this wall between us. Or swim this ocean, or whatever the metaphor should be.

Or shoot the alien's shield thats cutting up an endlessly evolving one that is nomming on us?

[Mutant Sheep]

Or shoot the alien's shield thats cutting up an endlessly evolving one that is nomming on us?

...*struggles to understand this english*

*glifurnle*

Isnt the shield cutting up the alien nommng you? why not shoot that one?

[Silverraptor]

...*struggles to understand this english*

*glifurnle*

Isnt the shield cutting up the alien nommng you? why not shoot that one?

I was trying to put it into the 3 way war the species are in with the Terrans retaliating against the Protoss because they blew up one of their planets that had Zerg which were noming on them to begin with.

*Shrugs*

[BobVosh]

...*struggles to understand this english*

*glifurnle*

Isnt the shield cutting up the alien nommng you? why not shoot that one?

You'll learn that sometimes (read:most) silver raptor is a bit special, and ignoring it is what to do. :P

[Gandariel]

Have you seen how the newly-patched Widow Mines work? They're SO strong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqtfaXI-71A&feature=g-all-u)

[Silverraptor]

You'll learn that sometimes (read:most) silver raptor is a bit special, and ignoring it is what to do. :P

I love you too.:smallwink:

[Mutant Sheep]

its at... 5 PM eastern, right? I can MAKE IT MAYBE! :smallcool:

[BobVosh]

I'm getting food, then I'll be on.


I love you too.:smallwink:

shh, we can't speak of our love here!

[Mutant Sheep]

If this work goes well, And I have a chance for th comuter, I might make it. But naturally, some family thing I didnt know about until two hours before it starts is gonna happen in an hour, so grooooan. :smallmad::smallsigh:

Oh just go and make it official, bob the silvervosh.

Chat channel is "Gitp", right? IT IS EMPTYYYY. :smalleek:

[BobVosh]

Sorry, I am there now though :D

[LaughingGnoll]

Have you seen how the newly-patched Widow Mines work? They're SO strong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqtfaXI-71A&feature=g-all-u)

Honestly, I think parts of the Starcraft community are starting to get tired of the major over haul of the unit designs. At this point we've seen:

Warhounds -> no Warhounds
Widow Mines attach to units -> widow mines are burrowed banelings -> widow mines are terran swarm hosts
oracle can block mining/reveal area -> oracle can block mining/grant immunity to fungals -> oracle can block mining/suck minerals out of buildings
Mothership core stays attached to nexus -> mothership floats around -> purify can now be used to give nexus an attack and core attaches -> purify can be used on nexus and core doesn't attach

I know that beta testing is for the purpose of making sure that nothing is ridiculously imbalanced, but it feels like every time I get adjusted to how things are working, units get completely redesigned. So I guess I'm just going to hold off on HOTS until the actual game is finished and is released. Though I wish the casters I follow would get back into the WOL scene again.

[Kneenibble]

So I believe the honourable Mutant Sheep and I made tentative plans for a match at some point. I should like to make good on that -- I may be available later this evening.

Flaniel#1395 [NA]

[BobVosh]

Honestly, I think parts of the Starcraft community are starting to get tired of the major over haul of the unit designs. At this point we've seen:

Warhounds -> no Warhounds
Widow Mines attach to units -> widow mines are burrowed banelings -> widow mines are terran swarm hosts
oracle can block mining/reveal area -> oracle can block mining/grant immunity to fungals -> oracle can block mining/suck minerals out of buildings
Mothership core stays attached to nexus -> mothership floats around -> purify can now be used to give nexus an attack and core attaches -> purify can be used on nexus and core doesn't attach

I know that beta testing is for the purpose of making sure that nothing is ridiculously imbalanced, but it feels like every time I get adjusted to how things are working, units get completely redesigned. So I guess I'm just going to hold off on HOTS until the actual game is finished and is released. Though I wish the casters I follow would get back into the WOL scene again.

Frankly I'm glad they are doing big changes like that. That said I agree I would rather watch WoL rather than a constantly changing meta like HotS is.

[Mutant Sheep]

So I believe the honourable Mutant Sheep and I made tentative plans for a match at some point. I should like to make good on that -- I may be available later this evening.

Flaniel#1395 [NA]

Sadly I cant make it tomorrow and this week is a..weirded schedule (PSAT, PLAN, Dentist... But TECHNICALLY i dot have school wednesday to friday, so its like, a lonnnng weekend. But psat is time taker and study time and augh.:smallsigh: *giggles about Canadian Thanksgivimg*

[Kneenibble]

Sadly I cant make it tomorrow and this week is a..weirded schedule (PSAT, PLAN, Dentist... But TECHNICALLY i dot have school wednesday to friday, so its like, a lonnnng weekend. But psat is time taker and study time and augh.:smallsigh: *giggles about Canadian Thanksgivimg*

No problem. Whenever you have time. My ID is in the pool now, at least.

Canadian Thanksgiving is a thing of beauty and dignity not to be giggled at, thou woolgathering clod ;_____;

Nay, I cannot stay mad at thee. *pets wool*

[Mutant Sheep]

No problem. Whenever you have time. My ID is in the pool now, at least.

Canadian Thanksgiving is a thing of beauty and dignity not to be giggled at, thou woolgathering clod ;_____;

Nay, I cannot stay mad at thee. *pets wool*

Yeah, I'll see when I ahve time and try and let you know.

The grand Tradition of Canada being... Canada is there solely to eb laughed at, here in our grand States. :smallwink:

*baaaaaaa* <cuddle>

knee just zerged meh. Twice. :smallredface: :smallamused:

[Acanous]

Honestly, I think parts of the Starcraft community are starting to get tired of the major over haul of the unit designs. At this point we've seen:

Warhounds -> no Warhounds
Widow Mines attach to units -> widow mines are burrowed banelings -> widow mines are terran swarm hosts
oracle can block mining/reveal area -> oracle can block mining/grant immunity to fungals -> oracle can block mining/suck minerals out of buildings
Mothership core stays attached to nexus -> mothership floats around -> purify can now be used to give nexus an attack and core attaches -> purify can be used on nexus and core doesn't attach

I know that beta testing is for the purpose of making sure that nothing is ridiculously imbalanced, but it feels like every time I get adjusted to how things are working, units get completely redesigned. So I guess I'm just going to hold off on HOTS until the actual game is finished and is released. Though I wish the casters I follow would get back into the WOL scene again.
Welcome to Blizzard, where nothing is constant.
Personally, I think it's from too many years of patching WoW. Nothing is solid anymore, everything is mercurial.
If they want SC2 to be a serious, pro sport thing with spectators who will actually pay to watch games, they can't go changing the rules whenever the whim strikes them.

[Draken]

Welcome to Blizzard, where nothing is constant.
Personally, I think it's from too many years of patching WoW. Nothing is solid anymore, everything is mercurial.
If they want SC2 to be a serious, pro sport thing with spectators who will actually pay to watch games, they can't go changing the rules whenever the whim strikes them.

And they don't. But that is a beta, it is meant to be mercurial, because they are still trying to find out what works and what don't. The WoL beta was exactly the same, and the metagame evolved overtime on that too (WoL's metagame changed quite a bit the last two years too).

It will happen again in LotV, I am positive it also happened during the transitions from Reign of Chaos to The Frozen Throne and from SC to Brood War. It's just how it works.

[Stille_Nacht]

wha.... why are widow mines.... super ultra lurkers that can attack air... now....

why did they think this would be balanced again? :l, who is designing this, some bronze league terran?

[Silverraptor]

wha.... why are widow mines.... super ultra lurkers that can attack air... now....

why did they think this would be balanced again? :l, who is designing this, some bronze league terran?

Yeah, I agree they're broken. They're even going through Immortals Harden shields.

[LaughingGnoll]

And they don't. But that is a beta, it is meant to be mercurial, because they are still trying to find out what works and what don't. The WoL beta was exactly the same, and the metagame evolved overtime on that too (WoL's metagame changed quite a bit the last two years too).

It will happen again in LotV, I am positive it also happened during the transitions from Reign of Chaos to The Frozen Throne and from SC to Brood War. It's just how it works.

Actually, the WoL Beta was quite different. While I'll concede that some abilities and upgrades got removed up to the 18th patch, there weren't nearly as many larger changes such as "removing an entire unit" and "repurposing the same unit several times". Most of the changes were adjusting individual units in cost, supply, unit typing, etc. Of course those changes make a huge difference to the meta-game, but not on the same scale that they've done with the Widow Mine.

[Mutant Sheep]

Actually, the WoL Beta was quite different. While I'll concede that some abilities and upgrades got removed up to the 18th patch, there weren't nearly as many larger changes such as "removing an entire unit" and "repurposing the same unit several times". Most of the changes were adjusting individual units in cost, supply, unit typing, etc. Of course those changes make a huge difference to the meta-game, but not on the same scale that they've done with the Widow Mine.

New units in Blizzard games get idiotically powerful buffs in the middle of their kinky nerf session. Of course, they lost their ears long before this to preserve their sanity from the Blizz forums. (Because the units themselves, they have accounts. :smallbiggrin:)

[Karoht]

Welcome to Blizzard, where nothing is constant.
Personally, I think it's from too many years of patching WoW. Nothing is solid anymore, everything is mercurial.
If they want SC2 to be a serious, pro sport thing with spectators who will actually pay to watch games, they can't go changing the rules whenever the whim strikes them.
It's already an eSport with rather a popular following. Yeup, people will still pay to be spectators regardless of changing rules.
Other eSports have had changing rules, they still have spectators.
Most people paying attention to eSports games accept this as a given.

People complain if things become too static as well. In the video game world, being static is probably worse than being dynamic, as people will just move to the next game if there isn't something to change it up. It goes both ways.

Lastly, beta is beta is beta. Change is a near constant in beta testing cycles. Consider that Blizzard was entirely willing to pull other new units or scrap abilities on units and start completely from scratch (Reploid), as opposed to launching with them and having to fix them later. Not too many companies out there are that commited to getting it right, to the point where they will say 'screw the investors and their demands, we are delaying shipping this product until it is better.'

[Kneenibble]

Anyone remember when roaches started with 2 armour and cost 1 supply?

[Mutant Sheep]

Anyone remember when roaches started with 2 armour and cost 1 supply?

Those were the daaaaaaaaays. (Because toss and zerg need a unit that costs one-single supply that isn't a worker, obviously. *grump* *Did not do the old Starcraft, or the beta except for once*)

[Silverraptor]

Anyone remember when roaches started with 2 armour and cost 1 supply?

Nope. But I heard about it and no one would build maraders then either.:smalltongue:

[Draken]

Remember when Fungal Growth lasted eight seconds and nobody complained about "removing micro from the game"?

The infestor had a ton of spell changes during the WoL beta, as I recall. Roaches and hydras bounced around as well.

Did the original tempest (melee carrier) ever enter the beta? Or was it cut in alpha?

[BobVosh]

Remember the planet cracker Mothership ability?
Or the pheonix overcharge(i think it was called) ability?

Session tomorrow. I'm not going to be there, as it is Mom's birthday, but there you have it folks.

[DarkMemnarch]

Remember the planet cracker Mothership ability?
Or the pheonix overcharge(i think it was called) ability?

Session tomorrow. I'm not going to be there, as it is Mom's birthday, but there you have it folks.

Just tell her that starcraft > real life obligations. I am sure she will understand.

[Kyeudo]

Alright, I just played a game and I have no idea how I could have dealt with what he did. He just endlessly pushed with huge marine armies, which he supported through a ridiculous number of orbital commands and 80+ workers. I did my normal anti-bio army, infestor/ling, but he kept pushing so hard that my infestors were almost out of energy.

Someone take a look (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=272795) and tell me what I was supposed to do differently.

[DarkMemnarch]

Alright, I just played a game and I have no idea how I could have dealt with what he did. He just endlessly pushed with huge marine armies, which he supported through a ridiculous number of orbital commands and 80+ workers. I did my normal anti-bio army, infestor/ling, but he kept pushing so hard that my infestors were almost out of energy.

Someone take a look (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=272795) and tell me what I was supposed to do differently.

everything was good until the 8 min mark where you saw he had a 3rd CC building. you needed to either take a 3rd in or put on some pressure in response to that. you waited way too long to expand to your third. this allows him to gain a massive economic advantage which he holds throughout the game.

At the 12 min mark you are just about to start your 3rd/4th but he has an income advantage over you which is really bad.

at the 14:10 min mark you attack into his planetary and 2 bunkers at his 3rd
this was pretty much all in at this point because unless you did significant damage he would be at a massive advantage. You did damage because you destroyed his 3rd and some scvs, but it wasnt enough.

at the 15 min mark he has around 90 scvs and is mining from 3 bases and about to take his 4th. You on the other hand have about 60 drones mining from 3 bases but you do have a 4th made.

You don't really do any other aggression despite being far behind economically and eventually slowly die by trying to play a standard game with a 30 worker disadvantage.

TL:DR you got outmacroed because your opponent took a huge risk and got away with it.

[Spuddles]

Blizzard should just realize that BW is unsurpassable and re-release that with some GUI polish as HotS.

I mean... spider mines? Goliaths? Lurkers? Arbiters? Dark Swarm? Come on blizzard, we aren't dumb.

[DarkMemnarch]

Blizzard should just realize that BW is unsurpassable and re-release that with some GUI polish as HotS.

I mean... spider mines? Goliaths? Lurkers? Arbiters? Dark Swarm? Come on blizzard, we aren't dumb.

They are pretty much are the same units as their predecessors with only the slightest of changes. I am glad i am not the only one who thought this.

[Karoht]

Blizzard should just realize that BW is unsurpassable and re-release that with some GUI polish as HotS.
BW has already been surpassed.
More units sold.
Larger eSports community.
No more BW eSports community except for very small closed circles.

On the other hand, many people complained that WoL was NOT a BW clone with some GUI polish when it was released. Hey look, Blizzard is listening to it's fans.

[Acanous]

I'm reasonably certain that Widow Mine isn't going to make it to live.
The Zerg stuff looks fine, the Toss stuff looks (Mostly useless) and the Widow Mine looks roflpwn.

Reaper+Ghost will make a surprising showing if Reapers grant sight up ledges. Nuclear Launch Detected, with no telltale scan.

[Thiyr]

Blizzard should just realize that BW is unsurpassable and re-release that with some GUI polish as HotS.

I mean... spider mines? Goliaths? Lurkers? Arbiters? Dark Swarm? Come on blizzard, we aren't dumb.


They are pretty much are the same units as their predecessors with only the slightest of changes. I am glad i am not the only one who thought this.


On the other hand, many people complained that WoL was NOT a BW clone with some GUI polish when it was released. Hey look, Blizzard is listening to it's fans.

see, and here i thought i remember people complaining at release that "Oh, it's just BW with a graphics update, why should we care?"

And...at this point, I'm not really seeing them being the slightest of changes. similar, i suppose. A toss air caster that can do a stasis-y styled thing (that functions not at all like stasis and a detection ability. A terran unit that's closer to the lurker than what the zerg gets. No real goliath substitute that makes sense, and nothing like spider mines since the widow change. perhaps there was a starting point there, but they don't honestly feel that close at this point.

Except the hellbat.

[BobVosh]

Tomorrow is the day of prophecy, the day of giants invading the starcrafts.

In other words weekly session tomorrow.

[Legoshrimp]

Sorry for not showing up to the last two sessions, first one I forgot >.>, second one I was at Disneyland. If I don't show up just poke me on steam.

[Mutant Sheep]

Disneyland? You went to DISNEY LAND instead of playing Starcraft with strangers? Shame on you. :smallmad::smalltongue:

[BobVosh]

LS isn't strangers with all of us here.

[LaughingGnoll]

Reaper+Ghost will make a surprising showing if Reapers grant sight up ledges. Nuclear Launch Detected, with no telltale scan.

I've seen a few cool tricks with Reapers, ranging from Siege Tanks and Thors to Widow Mines and Ghosts going around. Despite that I originally thought that Blizzard was trying too hard to make the Reaper viable, they certainly gave it a nice ability which helps its purpose as a harassing unit.

[Mutant Sheep]

As i'm sure Knee can attest, I'm still bad at starcraft and can barely do a competwnt zerg rush. What the hell do protoss and terran DO after the
Warpgate and siege tank?:smallannoyed::smalltongue:

[Silverraptor]

As i'm sure Knee can attest, I'm still bad at starcraft and can barely do a competwnt zerg rush. What the hell do protoss and terran DO after the
Warpgate and siege tank?:smallannoyed::smalltongue:

Win of course.:smalltongue:

[BobVosh]

Session this Sunday, just a reminder.

[Mutant Sheep]

Oh, yay clappy clappy! *claps*:smalltongue: I CAN TRY AND NOT SUCK THIS TIME! :smallcool:

Me and Memnarch... We so lonely.:smallfrown:

[DarkMemnarch]

Oh, yay clappy clappy! *claps*:smalltongue: I CAN TRY AND NOT SUCK THIS TIME! :smallcool:

Me and Memnarch... We so lonely.:smallfrown:

Ya this session was a much lonelier than the last one

on a side note I was able to completely smashed (http://www.mediafire.com/?198v6bi5ddeupjq) this masters terran.

[Mutant Sheep]

Did some random 4v4s, with pretty much all bronze. Was fun, got terran both times on High Ground. That is fun stage for terran. :smalltongue: I sieged the middle until I could thordrop. Because bronze, they either slow or way too fast. I actually set up a bunker in the back of one of their bases and sieged up behind it. /troll :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

Platinum'd 4v4 today. That makes me plat in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4. Right in time for the reset >.<

[DarkMemnarch]

MLG weekend starts soon. Who is going to watch it?

[Silverraptor]

MLG weekend starts soon. Who is going to watch it?

Link it here.

[Acanous]

OK, something is seriously wrong with the ranking system. It's all Wonky 0.o
Before the reset? I was Platinum across the board.

Yesterday? Some weird things happened when I did my "play a match to be placed" in each division.

4v4. Position before reset: Platinum. Result of Placement match: Loss. Placement: Diamond (Wtf)
3v3. Position before reset: Platinum. Result of Placement match: Loss.
Placement: Platinum. (Makes sense)
2v2. Position before reset: Platinum. Result of Placement match: Win.
Placement: Silver (ARGLEBARGLE)
1v1. Position before reset: Platinum. Result of Placement match: Win.
Placement: Gold (I can see that, I was on a losing streak beforehand)

[DarkMemnarch]

OK, something is seriously wrong with the ranking system. It's all Wonky 0.o
Before the reset? I was Platinum across the board.

Yesterday? Some weird things happened when I did my "play a match to be placed" in each division.

4v4. Position before reset: Platinum. Result of Placement match: Loss. Placement: Diamond (Wtf)
3v3. Position before reset: Platinum. Result of Placement match: Loss.
Placement: Platinum. (Makes sense)
2v2. Position before reset: Platinum. Result of Placement match: Win.
Placement: Silver (ARGLEBARGLE)
1v1. Position before reset: Platinum. Result of Placement match: Win.
Placement: Gold (I can see that, I was on a losing streak beforehand)

I don't know what to tell you other than that the new season placement system works in mysterious ways.

[BobVosh]

Session is tomorrow!

Larger font will spread this quicker and more effectively, right?

[Mutant Sheep]

Larger fonts always help. :smallbiggrin:

Me and Memnarch wont be alooooone!:smallcool::smalltongue:

[DarkMemnarch]

Larger fonts always help. :smallbiggrin:

Me and Memnarch wont be alooooone!:smallcool::smalltongue:

One can only hope.

[Silverraptor]

Hey, DarkMemnarch. (http://youtu.be/zex5p5_KwT0?t=26m30s):smallwink::smalltongue:

[BobVosh]

Well I won't be on til about 5:30-6 central. Than I have to go to a work meeting at 9:30. :S

[Mutant Sheep]

Gah, 5:30 is mah food time! AND THEN WORK. :smallfrown: But I can make it still.. because who needs work when there's Starcraft. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Edit: EMPTY! (except for Telos. technically. :smalltongue:)

[BobVosh]

I may or may not have gotten back from my D&D game and fell asleep on my couch until the alarm went on.

smart money is on may...
Edit: EMPTY! (except for Telos. technically. :P) probably due to the time

[Karoht]

MLG weekend starts soon. Who is going to watch it?
Barcraft was awesome. Leenock (AKA Leenoctopus) came in second, defeated by another Zerg player named Life. The final was 4-3. Life lost the first two matches, won a match, lost a match, and then won the rest to take it. I think Life is mostly big around GSL circles, or maybe I'm confusing him with Flash.
It was a really interesting series between those two. There was an epic Roach VS Roach battle, we saw a failed cheese/all in to a successful Infestor play, we saw attrition, we saw Leenock win it on 2 bases to Life's 3 and 4. Both players were easily within 1% of each other at all times. I would be willing to wager that these were easily the hardest and most stressful matches of Leenock's career thus far.

I'm a player who normally doesn't care about who wins. I don't follow teams, I don't follow players, I'm a fan of great plays. So when 7 matches are so full of great plays that I'm cheering for both players, constantly, something went very right that day.

Also, I won 3rd place in a unit impersonation contest. I chose the SC1 Firebat.
"Wanna turn up the heat?"
*crowd cheers*
"You got it."
*cheers*
"Fire it up!"
*cheers, whistles, hoots*
"Naturally"
*laughs*
"Do you have any questions about propane?"
*cheers*
Wait for it, wait for it...
"Or propane accessories?"
*Much cheering*

First place guy did an ultralisk.
"Moo. Moo."
*makes scything motions with hands*
*Much laughing and cheering from crowd*
Our barcraft has a serious Zerg bias though.

[BobVosh]

Psst. Hey guys. Session tomorrow.

[Mutant Sheep]

I predict... LONELINESS! :smalltongue:

@v I usually wait for Christmas. But damnit early Novemeber releases are annoying me.:smallsigh: HALO IS GONNA GET SPOILED!:smalleek::smalltongue:

AUGH WHAT TIME DID I MISS IT HUH WHA?

[Kyeudo]

Sorry, Halo 4 currently has possession of my soul. Once I get it back, I need to finish Assassin's Creed 3. Then maybe I can appear back online, if Minecraft doesn't drag me away again.

[BobVosh]

I'm still at the dnd game. Should be done soon then I'll get on

Edit: omw, getting on

[DarkMemnarch]

The blizzard WCS is going on right now.

here are the links if you want to watch it
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/TwitchTV
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/WCS_2
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/WCS_3
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/WCS_4

[Mutant Sheep]

Like anyones PLAYING non-Chinese Starcraft this weekend, but session tomorrow! Let's do it!!:smalltongue:

[Thiyr]

sadly, as per normal as of late, i shall be out and about. Sorry D:. In reparations, have an interview with Bill Amend about SC2 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382342)

[BobVosh]

Like anyones PLAYING non-Chinese Starcraft this weekend, but session tomorrow! Let's do it!!:smalltongue:

Thanks, I forgot to do the reminder what with work being completely bloody crazy this week. I shall get on early today! I'm going to try and shoot for 3pm central, but I won't make a promise.

Edit: Where are you, you blasted mutant sheep? I got on early for you.

[BobVosh]

What graphics card do you have? I know there were some odd problems with radeons, and maybe the fixes for multiplayer aren't working on the singleplayer.

[BobVosh]

Q – I see nothing but a black screen!
A – There have been multiple reports of black screen issues being related to the use of a Quick Cam webcam. Uninstall the software for the camera in order to resolve the problem.

Only thing I could find, I would recommend the actual tech support part of their forums. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/13438/

[Mutant Sheep]

Q – I see nothing but a black screen!
A – There have been multiple reports of black screen issues being related to the use of a Quick Cam webcam. Uninstall the software for the camera in order to resolve the problem.

Only thing I could find, I would recommend the actual tech support part of their forums. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/13438/
gaaah, THE BLIZZARD FORUMS! MY BRAIN IS MELTIIIIIIING.:smalltongue:

I had a graphics problem yesterday with a black screen! Everything but the UI was black, but the green command circles would still show up and the cursor was still there. Won with zerg swarms and the minimap. :smallbiggrin:

Editzzz:Thing today??

[Mutant Sheep]

No one else has seemed to post about this, but the Group System coming with HOTS (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7994698/First_Look_Groups_Coming_in_Heart_of_the_Swarm-12_3_2012) could be far more efficient than our current "Hope somebody is on the chat channel" thing we got going on. :smalltongue: I used to be pretty meh about HOTS, but they have me pretty excited now.

[Thiyr]

Ahem.

What the humminahuh? (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7320452320)

Those patch notes...just...wow. Fairly big stuff there. My mind just can't wrap itself around that medivac change, tbh. Opinions?

[DarkMemnarch]

Ahem.

What the humminahuh? (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7320452320)

Those patch notes...just...wow. Fairly big stuff there. My mind just can't wrap itself around that medivac change, tbh. Opinions?

I think the battle hellions are a bit op because someone did a test where 15 battle hellions were able to beat 396 cracklings.

here is the source
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7320422402

[Mutant Sheep]

I think the battle hellions are a bit op because someone did a test where 15 battle hellions were able to beat 396 cracklings.

here is the source
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7320422402Not suprising. Terran always have the best zerg killing goodies. Just imagine if there were widow mines too. :smallsigh:


Ahem.

What the humminahuh? (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7320452320)

Those patch notes...just...wow. Fairly big stuff there. My mind just can't wrap itself around that medivac change, tbh. Opinions?Yeah, now terran might make tech la... wait, they do that for raven spam. Which can now shoot down fungals. :smallannoyed:
Ultras got a damage buff against non armored, thats good... EXCEPT CHARGE IS GONE. WHY.
Reaper got more speed. I remember when you didnt need to make a depo to make a barracks... god THOSE rushes were terrible. Now we have reapers running faster than speedlings on creep.
Also terran, they no longer need to upgrade air... Ugh. Can Zerg get that? Would really ease up roach/muta.
New thor thing... doesnt really do good damage. Not really worth it, but o one used the cannons anyways.

Onto toss!
Dark Shrine cost is lowered by a dark templar's gas, how wonderful. *Dt rush 40 seconds earlier*
Voids lost the definitive charging. Lame. Slightly faster, no extra massive damage and ANOTHER researchable buff. What is with tech upgrades and this patch?
Tempest made faster. Meh. Screw the tempest in its face.

Zerg got nerfed alot and didn't get any new toys. Yay! HOW WONDERFUL.:smallmad: All we got was extra health on our idiotically vulnerable new casters. (And the wonderful "Ultras can actually o damage on large packs of small tier". Charge was helpful, there.)

[BobVosh]

I'm just glad an ultra might finally be able to beat a zealot.

Yeah as a zerg player I'm fairly disappointed with HotS. Despite being named for zerg, all the new zerg things are dull.

[Acanous]

Blizzard does seem to do most of the op things to Terran, before going back and re-balancing. Zerg seems to take more nerfs and non-intuitive changes than anyone else, making them harder to play. Toss took a few nerfs to begin with, but then just sorta...stayed the same, which is probably why the world finals were Toss V Toss.

In other news: Raven change. Why >.< Were Banshee rushes not enough? Now we have early Raven for mineral harass while freeing up minerals and some gas. So a Terran can go 2 rax->Factory(+Tech Lab)-Starport swap, and have all the benefit of Banshee harass with none of the downside! (Notably lack of tank def, less marine macro)

Eh. I've ended up playing Terran more often than not. The new change has me 14th in Diamond league right now.

I could never have gotten there without it, and I expect to be kicked back to Gold as soon as people learn to counter it.

[Thiyr]

Blizzard does seem to do most of the op things to Terran, before going back and re-balancing. Zerg seems to take more nerfs and non-intuitive changes than anyone else, making them harder to play. Toss took a few nerfs to begin with, but then just sorta...stayed the same, which is probably why the world finals were Toss V Toss.


I...don't know how to respond to this. It sounds very off before actually looking at the patch notes, which...actually makes me just want to look at said patch notes and see how changes went overall.

-looks at patch notes-

Summary of the patches for those too lazy to look.

Early patches seemed to be nerfs all around (Who remembers tanks just doing flat damage to everything and reapers not needing factory for speed?) That is to say, nerfs for everyone but zerg, who got ultras doing splash damage to buildings, stopping blink with fungal, and roach range.

From there, toss got some mixed-bag stuff, getting boosts to stuff nobody used at the time (phoenix buildtime reduced, hallucinate research time reduced) and losing void speed entirely in exchange for some damage boosting. The archon toilet was cut down in its prime, amulet was lost, and zealot charge was made far less useless. terran got more nerfin' (with the silver lining of faster cattlebruisers). Fungal got its damage boost in trade for a lower snare time (8 seconds before that. So crazy.)

Then archons became slightly more useful, getting some range and some MASSIVE, MASSIVE massiveness. Oh, and warpgate takes longer (but sentrys take less time when not warped!). Ghosts got price-shuffled a tad, bunkers stopped being completely free, and thors could be fed back again. Infestors got a movespeed nerf, and spores needed less time to re-root themselves.

Then came the great 4-gate buster. units can't see as far up ramps, immortals get range, blink takes longer to get, warp prisms aren't made of wet paper anymore, and mommaships stop lagging everything. Raxes are slower to build, seeker missiles chase faster, and hellions don't kill mineral lines quite as quick anymore. infestors stop being able to functionally solo protoss armies with neural (relegating it again to the bin of unusability), and stop having a strange percentage boost to damage on a spell that could've just had flat numbers. Ultras take less time, and overseers take less gas (but more energy to use that ability people forget it has)

Small update, toss rejoices that they don't have to sacrifice their firstborn for upgrades, terran is sad that their emp has mysteriously shrunk.

Then terran gets nerfed again, snipe becoming kinda useless, mules no longer mining out golds in one fell swoop. phoenixes get range upgrade to help toss deal with the mass muta ball of doom, obs come out faster, and queens become aMAYzinggggg. And that brings us to today, with seeker coming for free and infestors being toned back again.

In all the changes don't seem that crazy in retrospect. All the changes make sense for the most part, and no one race seems to get nerfed more than any other...well, aside from terran. Terran didn't get much of anything out of all these patches until the seeker change at the end.

In all, zerg seems to have gained some of the more notable changes, largely in relation to the infestor and ultra. Ultras are...still kinda bad as far as i can tell, but they gave it a shot. Infestors were made so good as to require reining back in, and are still I would argue one of if not the best casters in the game.

Toss gained and lost a fair chunk of stuff. The biggest "loss" is that they can no longer just 4gate every PvP ever, and they are the only race thusfar to have outright lost upgrades entirely (in that amulet and flux vanes no longer exist outright, rather than becoming standard features).

Still, overall I think they're all pretty sensible. Terran gets the shaft, which i don't necessarily see the reasoning for outside of them having the highest versatility overall. Otherwise the big changes seemed to be in response to the subject of the change being too much the unanswerable answer (infestors/4gate/uh...snipe giving terran a reason to get ghosts against zerg? Yea, I got nothin') In other words, I pretty much just disagree with you, looking back on it. Zerg's had it pretty nice all things considered, with the focus on them largely being "Infestors are still too good all the time, let's tone it back a tad and see if it's enough".

[Acanous]

Medivacs also had a speed boost. Don't forget the Medivac speed boost :p
I remember Thors getting boosted, nerfed, and rebalanced.

Toss though, yeah. They lost stuff, got other stuff. As a toss player at the time, it felt like Blizzard was saying "Don't play like that, play like THIS, you're having wrongbadfun!"

I remember when I would research the amulet, then psistorm, and counter a terran advance up my ramp with a Sentry and a hastilly warped in HT. Pinch them in, storm. If they tried a drop, warp in HT, Feedback the dropships right there. Toss could turtle better than terran, VS terran. Not so great VS other toss though.
When the amulet got taken away, I literally could not beat terran anymore. I lost so hard VS Terran that I de-leagued down to Silver, and had to change races to work my way back up.

Oddly enough, I managed Diamond, 15th at the moment in my league (War Pigs Rho) and have started playing Toss again.
Proxy 2gate Zealot Rush is my flavour of the month, and it's sooo gooood. Mostly because nobody expects a push in the first 3 minutes from Toss.

[Thiyr]

Medivacs also had a speed boost. Don't forget the Medivac speed boost :p
I remember Thors getting boosted, nerfed, and rebalanced.

I totally forgot about that...Though apparently it was a speed nerf (in 1.1.2). And thors only got the whole losing energy and getting a cooldown, then losing cooldown and getting energy. Yaaaaay liquipedia patchnotes :D

And yea, I still kinda miss amulet. The big problems, afaik, was precisely because it allowed for such (relatively) easy defenses at a moment's notice, and that it could be used to just storm an army the moment it moved out so long as you had pylons peppering the map. Granted, I kinda thought that was the _point_ of amulet, but still.

Still, I still say the colossus needs more tweaking than it's gotten, largely with it being the "get a bunch of these and win everything in every matchup unless they overcommit to the hardcounter" unit for toss.

As a side note, I've been taking the time to play a bit more terran in my normal 2v2s. Getting a fairly decent team timing down. Push when my ally has 2ish tanks and seige, by which point i normally have some combination of +1, stim, conc shells, and shield (i think i can pull off the first three by the time we hit normally). Solid enough that if we get outrushed we can hold it off, painful enough that we tend to be able to if not break their defenses, at least pin them in hard enough to ramp up production/tech/expo and push the advantage. Is quite entertaining.

[BobVosh]

I believe the nerf for the amulet was due to being too strong against drop play and harassment. That may just be me being crazy, but I could have sworn it was a stated reason.

The newest HotS patch is interesting, a faster regen for mutas (from .27 whatever to 1, so 4x faster). It looks like they want mutas for harass, but not a core army unit like it was earlier WoL.

[Karoht]

I believe the nerf for the amulet was due to being too strong against drop play and harassment. That may just be me being crazy, but I could have sworn it was a stated reason.

The newest HotS patch is interesting, a faster regen for mutas (from .27 whatever to 1, so 4x faster). It looks like they want mutas for harass, but not a core army unit like it was earlier WoL.
You are correct.
It basically made any competent Protoss player entirely immune to drops, while simultaneously making Psi-Storm a go-to assault strategy. And it made Pylons and Warp Prisms the uber dominant map control stategy as a result. The time between creation of High Templar and a Storm going off was typically under 5 seconds.
The sideline reason why the Amulet was nerfed was due to Warp In + Feedback being the dominant strategy for defending against MMM. Feedback the Medivacs and Storm the bio ball, it literally became an on-demand soft counter (bordering on hard counter) that required next to no build up and very little anticipation/investment (just research) to pull off. Used correctly it could dominate early game and was a solid mid-game strategy. And if things started to get out of hand, pull them back behind a light amount of base defenses and turn them into Archons... while warping in more High Templar to

I think a more elegant solution would have been to have a cooldown attached to those abilities upon unit creation. 15 seconds, maybe as little as 10. The amulet would have still been remarkably useful, Storms/Feedback would have seen a bit more play, and it would have reduced the on-demand aspect (which was the stated problem) of the High Templar as a base defense strategy.

[Acanous]

Thing is, Infestors still have their +Energy, and when I'm Zerg, I still use them to hard-counter drops (With HT, it was a soft-counter, if they didn't have full energy I couldn't kill them. If they dropped IN my mineral line, I had to move the probes out before storm, meaning they had time to t+move.)
Infestor Fungals, though, stop the drop as WELL as damaging the Medivacs. ALL of them. You could send 4, 8, or 12, I can fungal 'em all.

The only real difference is the Warp-in time for HT VS the morphin' time for Infestors.

Admittedly, there's a big difference in time there, but they could have just increased the warp-in by 5 seconds.

Also, in spitting distance of master league again. 2 gate Proxy Zealot Rush is amazing.

Easy for a Terran to counter, but Zerg are taking losses, and enemy Protoss on standard build are just going to die.

[BobVosh]

1 minute for an infestor vs even 10 seconds for a high templar is pretty big. Also an infestor takes 50 seconds, the upgrade gives +25 energy which is the amount an infestor would gain in 50 seconds. It basically gives energy while in the egg.
So basically 50 seconds vs ~52 seconds. Also feedback + storms can kill a drop pretty quick. Although that will be hard after boosters.

[BobVosh]

Reminder: Session starts in 12 hours from this post.

[LaughingGnoll]

Is anyone watching the Iron Squid Tournament?

I'll admit I'm a little behind, because I've been watching from Day9's site when he puts them up, and then usually a few days later anyways, but ...

HOLY COW SCARLETT BEAT THE LIVING BEJEESUS OUT OF MARINEKINGPRIME

O.O

[Karoht]

Is anyone watching the Iron Squid Tournament?

I'll admit I'm a little behind, because I've been watching from Day9's site when he puts them up, and then usually a few days later anyways, but ...

HOLY COW SCARLETT BEAT THE LIVING BEJEESUS OUT OF MARINEKINGPRIME

O.O

Heck yeah!
And that's no small feat either, MKP has a lot of clever tricks up his sleeve, don't let the name fool you into thinking he only ever uses Marines either.

[Acanous]

Speaking of things, I was just in a 3v3 against a guy called Apollo, apparently he does videos for Blizzard? Anyhow, won it, although my banshees were really only good for taking out Red and forcing the other two to spend on detection/AA. They came right for me after that, so I spent most of the last 7 minutes recovering and using a pair of Ravens to screw over the enemy stalkers while my teammates' bio ball went to town up and down the map.

I also launched a missile at a muta ball, but dude moved the one being tracked, which is the first time I've seen anyone micro a single muta out of the ball like that. (They were clustered pretty tight, *I* couldn't tell which one was being tracked.).

[Karoht]

That is some pretty sick micro.
Most people willl just scatter all the mutas, or move them all back, then scatter them, then micro the one, then move back in.
This person drew off ONE muta out of the pack without moving the others? Dang.

[Silverraptor]

Can you post that replay at all? Apollo has casted alongside Day9 before.::smallsmile:

[Acanous]

Can you post that replay at all? Apollo has casted alongside Day9 before.::smallsmile:

Why certainly, my good Raptor (http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29illupo_%28P%29Apollo_%28Z%29Tathagata_vs_%2 8P%29Noemi_%28T%29Sharif_%28T%29Acanous/21361).

[Spuddles]

I...don't know how to respond to this. It sounds very off before actually looking at the patch notes, which...actually makes me just want to look at said patch notes and see how changes went overall.

-looks at patch notes-

Summary of the patches for those too lazy to look.

Early patches seemed to be nerfs all around (Who remembers tanks just doing flat damage to everything and reapers not needing factory for speed?) That is to say, nerfs for everyone but zerg, who got ultras doing splash damage to buildings, stopping blink with fungal, and roach range.

From there, toss got some mixed-bag stuff, getting boosts to stuff nobody used at the time (phoenix buildtime reduced, hallucinate research time reduced) and losing void speed entirely in exchange for some damage boosting. The archon toilet was cut down in its prime, amulet was lost, and zealot charge was made far less useless. terran got more nerfin' (with the silver lining of faster cattlebruisers). Fungal got its damage boost in trade for a lower snare time (8 seconds before that. So crazy.)

Then archons became slightly more useful, getting some range and some MASSIVE, MASSIVE massiveness. Oh, and warpgate takes longer (but sentrys take less time when not warped!). Ghosts got price-shuffled a tad, bunkers stopped being completely free, and thors could be fed back again. Infestors got a movespeed nerf, and spores needed less time to re-root themselves.

Then came the great 4-gate buster. units can't see as far up ramps, immortals get range, blink takes longer to get, warp prisms aren't made of wet paper anymore, and mommaships stop lagging everything. Raxes are slower to build, seeker missiles chase faster, and hellions don't kill mineral lines quite as quick anymore. infestors stop being able to functionally solo protoss armies with neural (relegating it again to the bin of unusability), and stop having a strange percentage boost to damage on a spell that could've just had flat numbers. Ultras take less time, and overseers take less gas (but more energy to use that ability people forget it has)

Small update, toss rejoices that they don't have to sacrifice their firstborn for upgrades, terran is sad that their emp has mysteriously shrunk.

Then terran gets nerfed again, snipe becoming kinda useless, mules no longer mining out golds in one fell swoop. phoenixes get range upgrade to help toss deal with the mass muta ball of doom, obs come out faster, and queens become aMAYzinggggg. And that brings us to today, with seeker coming for free and infestors being toned back again.

In all the changes don't seem that crazy in retrospect. All the changes make sense for the most part, and no one race seems to get nerfed more than any other...well, aside from terran. Terran didn't get much of anything out of all these patches until the seeker change at the end.

In all, zerg seems to have gained some of the more notable changes, largely in relation to the infestor and ultra. Ultras are...still kinda bad as far as i can tell, but they gave it a shot. Infestors were made so good as to require reining back in, and are still I would argue one of if not the best casters in the game.

Toss gained and lost a fair chunk of stuff. The biggest "loss" is that they can no longer just 4gate every PvP ever, and they are the only race thusfar to have outright lost upgrades entirely (in that amulet and flux vanes no longer exist outright, rather than becoming standard features).

Still, overall I think they're all pretty sensible. Terran gets the shaft, which i don't necessarily see the reasoning for outside of them having the highest versatility overall. Otherwise the big changes seemed to be in response to the subject of the change being too much the unanswerable answer (infestors/4gate/uh...snipe giving terran a reason to get ghosts against zerg? Yea, I got nothin') In other words, I pretty much just disagree with you, looking back on it. Zerg's had it pretty nice all things considered, with the focus on them largely being "Infestors are still too good all the time, let's tone it back a tad and see if it's enough".

But that was all post-beta. Terran were hugely front loaded in WoL beta, and all the subsequent patches were basically after a year of Terrans destroying everyone at Code S level and above. Teamliquid has the stats; they've been posted in these threads before.

The no upgrades on infested terrans really, really hurts. That's just an overwhelming nerf.

Terran buffs are pretty silly. I don't get why they needed that stuff. Haven't watched too much HotS play, but it looks like zerg have a lot of trouble adapting to the new ZvT changes.

Between fast medivacs, spider mines, reapers, and two sorts of hellion, terran basically have a million ways to harass mineral lines all game. Having 1 upgrade for all mech units makes tank/viking amazing while the infestor nerfs makes responding to that sort of stuff much harder.

I'm interested to see what happens with the metagame, though. I expect many, many zerg tears, until the new infestor is discovered. Don't know what that is going to be, though.

Oh, and the new map pool makes blord infestor much harder to play, due to slowness of army. One thing I'd like to see is the collapsible rocks used offensively. You can knock those down so they block expansions, right?

Protoss again feels like it got the short end of the stick. They're still reliant on deathballing and got a handful more harassment options.

[BobVosh]

Having 1 upgrade for all mech units makes tank/viking...
It got split up a bit, the armor upgrade is the same, separate upgrades for attack.


I'm interested to see what happens with the metagame, though. I expect many, many zerg tears, until the new infestor is discovered. Don't know what that is going to be, though.
I'm surprised at how few people use swarm hosts now. It sucks they lost the ability to shoot up.


One thing I'd like to see is the collapsible rocks used offensively.
When they fall on the building it does damage to it. Same amount it takes to break them though, so I guess you can predamage it. Honestly they seem like a silly gimmick, and I dislike that the base isn't breakable making these large walls near most expansions.


Protoss again feels like it got the short end of the stick. They're still reliant on deathballing and got a handful more harassment options.
Surprisingly they play a bit like zerg did, with building tempest then protecting them. Early game has changed a lot with the addition of the MS core as well.

[BobVosh]

Session is tomorrow.

[Spuddles]

Watched a little more HotS play. It's almost painful to watch the games since the metagame is still up in the air. You can really tell how hard zerg macro mechanics are to get just right. Like terran or protoss you keep adding factory/gateway and expanding, but with zerg you over drone and you die. Zerg is much more timing based than other races, or at least times differently. like I just watched liquidsheth get cleaned up by some terran I've never heard of.

The latest version of the widow mine is really cool. It is great at controlling space, which makes mech easier to play with. I think it discourages deathballing, at least from what I have seen so far- pvt looks almost brood war-esque.

The tempest is almost the new broodlord.

It's interesting to see how bad everyone is at getting detection- widow mines and swarm hosts have so far been hilariously brutal because zerg and protoss just don't want to invest in multiple observers.

I suspect swarm host is the new infestor or broodlord or something. Endless waves of free units seems extremely exploitable and I am surprised not to see more effective use of them. But then, I think zerg players have the hardest time adapting to changes. Or at least it seems that way. Infestors in WoL used to be so good, but they sat virtually unused for like a year! Meanwhile, you see terran players show off the total badassery of virtually every unit everytime the metagame changes. BFH took a little while to find, though, and I am surprised snipe vs. infestor isn't used. Snipe buff vs. psionic makes ghosts 2shot infestor. Hydras are starting to finally show up in WoL, now. Ultras took like a year and a half to figure out.

[LaughingGnoll]

It's interesting to see how bad everyone is at getting detection- widow mines and swarm hosts have so far been hilariously brutal because zerg and protoss just don't want to invest in multiple observers.

I suspect swarm host is the new infestor or broodlord or something. Endless waves of free units seems extremely exploitable and I am surprised not to see more effective use of them. But then, I think zerg players have the hardest time adapting to changes. Or at least it seems that way. Infestors in WoL used to be so good, but they sat virtually unused for like a year! Meanwhile, you see terran players show off the total badassery of virtually every unit everytime the metagame changes. BFH took a little while to find, though, and I am surprised snipe vs. infestor isn't used. Snipe buff vs. psionic makes ghosts 2shot infestor. Hydras are starting to finally show up in WoL, now. Ultras took like a year and a half to figure out.

Usually the detection thing is rare because it's fairly rare (depending on what league your in, of course) that things with cloak actually make regular appearances in "non-cheesy serious play". I just got to Gold as Random on the European Servers before the server lock, and it was pretty easy to get an easy Protoss win from time to time by going a simple DT rush.

I would say that the reason Zerg doesn't adapt to tech well is because of the way the tech-tree works. Terran can generally instantly show off new things because all the new units fall into the baracks, factory, starport lines pretty easily, the only deciding factor may be which add-ons you decide to use, which you can always switch around later. But for Zerg you have to decide whether or not you're going to build a whole separate building which may or not then fit into your build depending on your current larva supply, unit composition, and other economic factors. Before most patches, Zergs have a build where they are spending all the larvae they can, so then we have to adjust our whole play style so we can allocate larvae differently.

I don't think the swarm host will be as devastating as the Brood Lord or Infestor. Even though it's waves of free units, the units are weak enough to not be a problem unless you have a LOT of swarm-hosts, which isn't viable because it cuts out of your offensive army supply by adding a defensive unit. Plus their total immobility while they summon Locusts makes it difficult to navigate them well, we haven't had a unit like that since the Lurker in Brood Wars, which we once again adapted to not having in WoL.

I'm pretty skeptic about the ultralisks, now that they lost burrow charge. Now they're going to return to the problems that they have in WoL, where they are stuck behing the Zerglings at best, and at the worst behind your ranged attacking units. I can see where Burrow Charge could have in OP, but I think the ultralisk as a unit itself is bound to see something change again. I think it'd satisfy most Zergs enough if Blizzard increased the Push Priority on the Ultralisks enough that they would push Zerglings out of the way without being able to move other units around. Whether this is do-able in HoTS is kind of debatable, but I think it would fit the lore well and improve the usability of ultras which sharply declined since BW.

[BobVosh]

I suspect swarm host is the new infestor or broodlord or something. Endless waves of free units seems extremely exploitable and I am surprised not to see more effective use of them.

If they could still shoot up, I know they would be a lot more plentiful. I just hate a less maneuverable brood lord in effect.


BFH took a little while to find, though, and I am surprised snipe vs. infestor isn't used. Snipe buff vs. psionic makes ghosts 2shot infestor. Hydras are starting to finally show up in WoL, now. Ultras took like a year and a half to figure out.

EMP is basically good enough vs infestors. Hydras showed up in WoL a few times, but it is so weak it is hard to use. Ultras took a ton of nerfs/buffs to get to the point they are.

[Karoht]

Infestors are important because of Fungal Growth, not the Infested Marines.
At high level play (MLG and the like) you see Infested Marines, mostly on a final base push, and usually as a 'ha ha I'm winning' sort of gesture. Occasionally you see them as harass, but not likely.

[Mutant Sheep]

Hots is getting close, and I actually tried out some of the new units yesterday. Was a few patches ago, but I think that Toss air is silly and ground zerg abusign swarm hosts is good. Works great with fungal.:smallamused: Too easy to kill though. Massing them leves you hilariously open. And they arent the best fighters. Viper is AMAZZZZING though. (Oh. Screw widow mines.)

[Acanous]

Oh yes. Zerg Vipers are going to see a LOT of play. Maybe not en mass, but enough that you'll be surprised if you don't see any in a long match.

[Spuddles]

Infestors are important because of Fungal Growth, not the Infested Marines.
At high level play (MLG and the like) you see Infested Marines, mostly on a final base push, and usually as a 'ha ha I'm winning' sort of gesture. Occasionally you see them as harass, but not likely.

Infested marines also make great AA, create a free base razing army, harass, eggs block pathing, and used to be a massive source of DPS for a roach army.

While yes, fungal is usually why you get infestors, having free units that got upgrades made them that much more powerful.


Usually the detection thing is rare because it's fairly rare (depending on what league your in, of course) that things with cloak actually make regular appearances in "non-cheesy serious play". I just got to Gold as Random on the European Servers before the server lock, and it was pretty easy to get an easy Protoss win from time to time by going a simple DT rush.

I would say that the reason Zerg doesn't adapt to tech well is because of the way the tech-tree works. Terran can generally instantly show off new things because all the new units fall into the baracks, factory, starport lines pretty easily, the only deciding factor may be which add-ons you decide to use, which you can always switch around later. But for Zerg you have to decide whether or not you're going to build a whole separate building which may or not then fit into your build depending on your current larva supply, unit composition, and other economic factors. Before most patches, Zergs have a build where they are spending all the larvae they can, so then we have to adjust our whole play style so we can allocate larvae differently.

I don't think the swarm host will be as devastating as the Brood Lord or Infestor. Even though it's waves of free units, the units are weak enough to not be a problem unless you have a LOT of swarm-hosts, which isn't viable because it cuts out of your offensive army supply by adding a defensive unit. Plus their total immobility while they summon Locusts makes it difficult to navigate them well, we haven't had a unit like that since the Lurker in Brood Wars, which we once again adapted to not having in WoL.

I'm pretty skeptic about the ultralisks, now that they lost burrow charge. Now they're going to return to the problems that they have in WoL, where they are stuck behing the Zerglings at best, and at the worst behind your ranged attacking units. I can see where Burrow Charge could have in OP, but I think the ultralisk as a unit itself is bound to see something change again. I think it'd satisfy most Zergs enough if Blizzard increased the Push Priority on the Ultralisks enough that they would push Zerglings out of the way without being able to move other units around. Whether this is do-able in HoTS is kind of debatable, but I think it would fit the lore well and improve the usability of ultras which sharply declined since BW.

I would really like to see ultras path over lings. Even a simple speed upgrade like in BW so they go as fast as lings. Early in WoL, sheth admitted he a-moved into a base with ling/ultra because he was used to them going the same speed. Instead his ultras arrived late and got wiped out.

Gold random player here, but from what I've watched, your analysis seems accurate.

There's a lot more cloaked space controlling units in HotS, which leads to just painful losses vs widow mines.


If they could still shoot up, I know they would be a lot more plentiful. I just hate a less maneuverable brood lord in effect.

EMP is basically good enough vs infestors. Hydras showed up in WoL a few times, but it is so weak it is hard to use. Ultras took a ton of nerfs/buffs to get to the point they are.

From what I have heard from the terran QQ patrol, infestors don't cluster tightly enough for their EMPs to be "efficient".

[Karoht]

From what I have heard from the terran QQ patrol, infestors don't cluster tightly enough for their EMPs to be "efficient"....
...boo hoo?

Terran QQ Patrol. I lol'd.

[Acanous]

Like Terran need a better counter to infestors. Terran Mech AND terran Air don't even care that you go infestor unless your micro is godly. Only thing that really has problems with an infestor-heavy field is 3m, or poorly micro'd air.

Edit: Is anyone else having problems with Battlenet's Public Test and/or Beta servers? I have the client downloaded, but can't seem to connect.

No, not "Can't log in", can't connect at all.

[DarkMemnarch]

Hey i visited the Bnet forums and found a really good idea for zerg

here is the link (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7811541332):

What do you guys think of it?

[Kyeudo]

Hey i visited the Bnet forums and found a really good idea for zerg

here is the link (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7811541332):

What do you guys think of it?

I want the infestor and those changes. Swarm hosts as anti-air and lurkers as anti-ground would be pretty cool.

[DarkMemnarch]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to inform you guys that Lykos created a GITP group on sc2. We all should all join it.

Just search GITP on the group finder button which is located to the left of the Menu on the new UI. When you find it just hit the "join group" button in the chat.

This is going to make communicating and organizing things and stuff a whole lot easier.

[Silverraptor]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to inform you guys that Lykos created a GITP group on sc2. We all should all join it.

Just search GITP on the group finder button which is located to the left of the Menu on the new UI. When you find it just hit the "join group" button in the chat.

This is going to make communicating and organizing things and stuff a whole lot easier.

Awesome. Will this cross over with Hots?

[Mutant Sheep]

I may or may not come back to play, my PC lost its OS and we're reinstalling windows. :smallsigh: And my dad, despite being a tech from the 90's, is having trouble. Just enough that it isn't funny.:smallsigh:

[Karoht]

Starcraft Universe is pretty awesome.
Currently the prologue is released, and it is excellent.
I'm mostly fond of the Firebat, and I haven't played any of the Protoss classes yet. Really solid skill shot that is fun to use, and a jetpack.
Medic is not at all what I expected, in a good way.
Ghost is bloody hard to play. Snipe has a very finicky range, and it is hard to maintain that range unless you are stealthed. Even then, tricky.
Marine is dirt simple to play. When bad guys are at range, grenades between shots. When bad guys are close up, spider mines between shots. When bad guys are far away but you expect them to get close very soon, Grenade first, then spider mine every chance you get.
The last boss of the prologue I spammed spider mines while waiting for him to show up, he was very not fond of having 12+ mines explode on him when he rushed me.

[DarkMemnarch]

Awesome. Will this cross over with Hots?

Yes I believe it will.

[Spuddles]

I have long held that terran is most powerful race at pro level, at least until the end of WoL. Data has supported my assertion amongst global metal players, masters and above, and code S. It's why so many post-beta patches have been aimed at terran. I've also wondered why terran in HotS beta looks ridiculously OP.

And I now know why: David Kim, lead balance guy, says Terran is his worst race:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/19sg1x/we_are_dustin_browder_alan_dabiri_and_david_kim/c8qwr2k

Whole AMA is worth a read, but my goodness do I feel vindicated. I may be playing at a gold level, but goddammit, I know data!

[Forbiddenwar]

Anyone know if the Hots multiplayer will be a free upgrade or will the community be split between those that have purchased Hots and those who haven't?

[Legoshrimp]

Not sure FW with no info my guess is it will be split but no real idea.

So when I glanced at the sc2 website it looks like there is global play(finally)!

Also we should get a session going for hots when it comes out.

[Archonic Energy]

hmmm.... kinda miffed that the DVD has only the install file the rest is downloaded from the Blizzard servers... i have 8 GB of storage HERE... you sent it to me... it's on this little plastic thing... why aren't you using it? :smallsigh:

[Karoht]

Only played through 3 missions, so far I'm enjoying the game.

[Silverraptor]

For The Swarm!

The campaign is awesome!
And it shows just how more dynamic the zerg swarm really is. There's a lot more to it than what you initially expect.

[Karoht]

Indeed. The planet Zerus was most excellent.

Funny thing happened on the mission where you get Swarm Hosts.
There was a ramp that was blocked by stones, and I thought to myself, that spot is going to get attacked later. So I built that area up a bit, and sure enough it got attacked.
So the Locusts from the Swarm Hosts say "hey we want to kill those dudes behind the rocks!" And they proceed to go the long way around, assist in killing the guys at the right hand side entrance, followed by attacking the other group from the rear.

Also, I am totally a fan of near instant Overlords.

[Komatik]

I have long held that terran is most powerful race at pro level, at least until the end of WoL. Data has supported my assertion amongst global metal players, masters and above, and code S. It's why so many post-beta patches have been aimed at terran. I've also wondered why terran in HotS beta looks ridiculously OP.

And I now know why: David Kim, lead balance guy, says Terran is his worst race:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/19sg1x/we_are_dustin_browder_alan_dabiri_and_david_kim/c8qwr2k

Whole AMA is worth a read, but my goodness do I feel vindicated. I may be playing at a gold level, but goddammit, I know data!

Terran looks OP because people don't really know optimal defenses to pushes. It's like in Magic, when in an unknown meta aggressive decks dominate, and control emerges later. You can't control the unknown properly. Quick aggression eliminates the unknown.

The second reason is that Blizzard doesn't have a goddamn clue.

[Spuddles]

Indeed. The planet Zerus was most excellent.

Funny thing happened on the mission where you get Swarm Hosts.
There was a ramp that was blocked by stones, and I thought to myself, that spot is going to get attacked later. So I built that area up a bit, and sure enough it got attacked.
So the Locusts from the Swarm Hosts say "hey we want to kill those dudes behind the rocks!" And they proceed to go the long way around, assist in killing the guys at the right hand side entrance, followed by attacking the other group from the rear.

Also, I am totally a fan of near instant Overlords.

Swarm Hosts OP. Once you get their evolution + pick the upgrade that lets locusts shoot up, you literally need no other unit. Maybe kerrigan to tank a for a few seconds. And queens/creep tumors.


Terran looks OP because people don't really know optimal defenses to pushes. It's like in Magic, when in an unknown meta aggressive decks dominate, and control emerges later. You can't control the unknown properly. Quick aggression eliminates the unknown.

The second reason is that Blizzard doesn't have a goddamn clue.

Word of God dude- Terran OP cause David Kim gave them too much.

[Karoht]

The top players in MLG and GSL and NASL are Zerg players, and the community largely considers Zerg to be the best race for competative play. Literally, just about every MLG I've seen has come down to 3 or 4 zerg players. Terrans and Protoss rarely make the top 6.
But Terrans are somehow OP.
LoLwut?

I really don't place much stock in people complaining that X race is OP. It tends to make me laugh.

[Astrella]

So when I glanced at the sc2 website it looks like there is global play(finally)!

Oh, really? That might actually renew my interest in the game.

[Silverraptor]

Indeed. The planet Zerus was most excellent.

Funny thing happened on the mission where you get Swarm Hosts.
There was a ramp that was blocked by stones, and I thought to myself, that spot is going to get attacked later. So I built that area up a bit, and sure enough it got attacked.
So the Locusts from the Swarm Hosts say "hey we want to kill those dudes behind the rocks!" And they proceed to go the long way around, assist in killing the guys at the right hand side entrance, followed by attacking the other group from the rear.

Also, I am totally a fan of near instant Overlords.

I thought the exact same thing too and built about half as many swarm hosts, spines, and hydras around there as the other 2 ramps. Turns out, the hydras by themselves killed everything before they could get through the rocks. I only had like 6 hydras, and most of them couldn't even hit the nemy hydras. Fortunately, 1 could barely stay in range with the enemy hydras. (Thank you 6 range evolution.)

[Komatik]

The top players in MLG and GSL and NASL are Zerg players, and the community largely considers Zerg to be the best race for competative play. Literally, just about every MLG I've seen has come down to 3 or 4 zerg players. Terrans and Protoss rarely make the top 6.
But Terrans are somehow OP.
LoLwut?

I really don't place much stock in people complaining that X race is OP. It tends to make me laugh.

The balance discussion culture of RTSes in general (even on a saner site like teamliquid) is pretty horrid. Gotta pretend matchup is fair always.

Zerg domination is pretty much a matter of larvae. In more words:

As far as WoL ZvT balance goes, though, apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated.

The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).

Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame.

And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy (especially less gas expenditure) allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good.

The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats.

The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player.