Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Hiro Protagonest]

But points where they're due, the secondary characters of HotS are all eminently boring, forgettable, or just irritating - even the scientist-zerg-guy takes some getting used to, though he's at least entertaining.

I never got why Abathur only had two arms. Using tools and props is inefficient.

[Gandariel]

You don't, not without breaking the game in half.

If capital ships improve to where they are good for midgame situations, you have to nerf them in some way to leave other midgame strategies as viable options. In other words, you'd no longer have a capital ship.

The capital ships are really good at what they do, but they aren't cost or time effective. Buying the time and finding the money is what balances their amazing stats.

Agreed =)
They're only meant for very late game, it's just how it works.

Actually, since SkyToss is pretty popular (or at least was a few months ago, i haven't been playing all summer), you can sort of use carriers a bit earlier. If you're already using a lot of air, you already got some stargates and upgrades; build the Fleet beacon (which lets you get regular +air upgrades too) and at some point you can begin adding Carriers, but i think it's pretty hard to understand when exactly carriers become a better choice than other stuff. And anyways we're talking about late game. You can't really pull that off without 3 mining bases.

For the BC it's a bit harder because nobody goes mass air and gets +air weapons, but it can still be done.

Then there are those stupid UnitName Rush builds that don't really work but make you giggle if you pull it off.

Try getting a Thor and two Medivacs as fast as possible. Fill one with the Thor and the other with workers. Drop, have the workers on autorepair, and watch your thor kill stuff until the next thor is ready, and win. Thors are crazy good

You can do the same with a Battlecruiser; Just rush for it, then attack with a swarm of repairing SCVs.

Day9 did some funday mondays about that, i think

[Hiro Protagonest]

Day9 did some funday mondays about that, i think

There was the "hero unit" one.

[Gandariel]

I'm pretty sure one of the first ones was "Build a carrier before expanding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12lc7jVpfUc)" and another was "BUILD THEM BATTLECRUISERS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTqznPBsus)"

And by the way, for whoever had never seen Day9, THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9i8szWLmE)is the first thing you should see. Absolutely one of the funniest dailies =)

[Thiyr]

I'm going DTs, I need gas.

[Tectonic Robot]

Vroom vroom, everyone get on the DT truck! Total gas guzzler, this thing.

[Artanis]

So, question for all you folks.

I'll make no secret of the fact that I like the capital class ships! Namely, Battlecruiser and Carrier. Neither of these really sees any professional play, because they are Actually Kinda Bad. (Not sure if it's the same with the Tempest.)

What would you change to make them more viable, while not making them broken or completely changing them?
If I wanted to make a change that would lead to more Battlecruisers, I would do to the Banshee what HotS did to the Hellion: make a version of it that's geared towards combat rather than harassment.

Why?

To use Battlecruisers, you need cash, Starports, tech labs, a Fusion Core, and air upgrades. If you're using a lot of Banshees, then you'll be getting Starports, tech labs, and air upgrades as a matter of course. So if they add a reason to use a significant number of Banshees, you'll see people use Battle-Banshees in mid-game and then, as armies max out and income rises, those people will add on a Fusion Core and start transitioning into Battlecruisers.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Tempests do seem to be the natural 'hard counter' to capital ships. Longer range, about the same speed, and all the damage bonuses. They'd probably murder BC's and Carriers.

[Thiyr]

Tempests do seem to be the natural 'hard counter' to capital ships. Longer range, about the same speed, and all the damage bonuses. They'd probably murder BC's and Carriers.

Or the long forgotten and least used capital ship ever that is never used by anyone ever, the brood lord.

[Artanis]

Or the long forgotten and least used capital ship ever that is never used by anyone ever, the brood lord.
Slivko likes Brood Lords! And they didn't even cost him his tournament life or anyth...

Oh. Right. Nevermind. :smalltongue:

[Tectonic Robot]

Broodlords were a thing, apparently, in the WoL days. That's what I hear, at least.

I had a battle with Galandriel! I learned that you should probably have something by the eight minute mark. ^^''

[Silverraptor]

Broodlord infestor is no longer a thing!? Awwwwww, yeah! Maybe I should start playing again!:smallbiggrin:

[Gandariel]

Brood lords were ALWAYS used in WoL.
In HotS, not really that much. And i really have no idea why, brood lords are really a pain in the ass to deal with.

As protoss, you either have to have an overwhelming amount of stuff, or use Void rays to defend them. LOTS of blink stalkers kind of work too, but i don't really like having too many of them, especially towards the lategame.


Oh, and to tectonicbot, as i said to you: You MUST either have units or defences. Simply wall off the 2nd ramp with your first few buildings, leaving only a small gap. Close that gap with one or two units set on Hold position (select the unit and press H) and you're set. No scouting, no zergling/hellion harass.
(Of course it's easier if you go terran, you can just wall off completely and raise depos)


In other news, anybody wanna play some games with me? I haven't played in months, and i think my level right now is around gold, maybe a little more. But i'd love to play some more.

The only person on these forums i played with is Acanous, if any of you played him. I had better macro than him (but he had better micro) and i won more than half the games, he only beat me when he did very early rushes or that damn banshee build of his :P

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or the long forgotten and least used capital ship ever that is never used by anyone ever, the brood lord.

Vikings eat them for breakfast.

[Gandariel]

Ok, after a few months of not playing i decided to play somegames between yesterday and today.

First game, i got stupidly rushed and lost to a bronze. Got placed into silver =(
(used to being gold or plat)

After that, i won 6/6 of the other games i played, with good games, and nice comebacks. I hope i'll get promoted soon!

I MASSACRED a guy who was going mass void rays using storms. they clump up SO much and have terrible acceleration :)

Some games were pretty normal.
The last i played, i'm really proud of it.

I barely held a hydra timing attack, lost my third twice, and got 20+kills on three immortals against someone who only built hydras for most of the game.
Anybody care to watch it and maybe give me some feedback? :)

http://drop.sc/359530

Considerations:
First, the cannons at the natural. Trust me, it WORKS if you scout hatch first. This time it didn't go so well, i missed a cancel and misplaced a cannon, and still i managed to delay him a lot. i didn't do my best at all, and if i look up my replays maybe i can find you some in which i do it right; And, this is a perfect example of NOT cheese. it's just punishing the enemy for going hatch first. anyways, back to the game.

The rest is pretty straightforward, i didn't harass much, i didn't build enough gateways, i didn't put forward pylons. I did well with upgrades though, and i think i got the right unit composition and decent macro and micro.

i talked to the enemy afterwards, he said he was trying to win with that first 1/1 timing push: he said it hits right before the Protoss has Colossi. too bad i didn't make any ;)

[Gandariel]

Update: after winning 9/9 i got promoted to Gold :P

[Tectonic Robot]

I downloaded your replay, will watch it later!

[Legoshrimp]

So TaeJa just build some battlecrusiers versus innovation.

[Artanis]

So TaeJa just build some battlecrusiers versus innovation.
Where? Dreamhack?

[iyaerP]

Yup, and it was awesome. That series was a joy to watch. High level TvT is the best mirror match.

[Gandariel]

Yeah, TvT is fun. Can be boring when two armies with sieged tanks stare at each other for five minutes waiting for the other to unsiege, but otherwise cool =)

Btw, i have a question about APM.
I don't really care that much for them, but i just wanted to know mine.

Point is, for the first 3-4 minutes my APM is at.. 20?
I mean, i do everything i'm supposed to do, but there's only so much you can do.. and i refuse to give useless orders over and over just to keep the apm high.
Does that affect my overall APM score in the end?

In most games i played my apm is around 70 (from the score screen).
Then i checked that game replay i uploaded a few posts back, and it says my apm is 98. (and the score screen for the same game said 70 or so)

Is that possible? which one is wrong? Should my actual apm be higher, considering that i do nothing during the beginning of the game?

EDIT: Checked again, now my "average apm" is 100something, and i still get 70 or so in the score screen. Blizzard, wtf?

[Artanis]

FINALLY got to watch the Dreamhack finals game 1. Bizarrely, the rest of the series started going up on YouTube within an hour or two of it ending, but it wasn't until this morning that those same channels put up game 1.

Some thoughts on an aspect of game 1:

Battlecruisers are badass. It looked like they kicked the crap out of Vikings cost-for-cost, supply-for-supply, and time-for-time even when you factored in Reactors. An air unit doing that to what are more or less anti-air specialists* is pretty damned impressive. However, the fact that they're countered** by something as quick and cheap as Widow Mines is a very strong entry in the list of reasons why nobody uses BCs.


*Seriously, how often do you see Vikings land? :smalltongue:

**Yeah, I know Innovation was getting desperate by that point and they didn't work that well for the most part, but if they do well enough for the WCS points leader to so much as consider them...yeah.


Btw, i have a question about APM.
I don't really care that much for them, but i just wanted to know mine.

Point is, for the first 3-4 minutes my APM is at.. 20?
I mean, i do everything i'm supposed to do, but there's only so much you can do.. and i refuse to give useless orders over and over just to keep the apm high.
Does that affect my overall APM score in the end?

In most games i played my apm is around 70 (from the score screen).
Then i checked that game replay i uploaded a few posts back, and it says my apm is 98. (and the score screen for the same game said 70 or so)

Is that possible? which one is wrong? Should my actual apm be higher, considering that i do nothing during the beginning of the game?

EDIT: Checked again, now my "average apm" is 100something, and i still get 70 or so in the score screen. Blizzard, wtf?
I figure it's probably best to look at relative APM. If somebody has double your APM, then they have double your APM, regardless of whether the "real" numbers are 1 vs. 2 or 20 vs. 40 or 150 vs. 300.

Also, they started some time ago recording "EPM", or Effective Actions per Minute to try to weed out some of the setting-a-rally-point-fifty-times stuff. You almost never see it though, since it probably came out to pretty similar ratios as "regular" APM.


On a tangentially-related note:
I saw a Scarlett game once where she briefly spiked over 700 APM for a moment. They were showing picture-in-picture of the two players' hands at the time, and hers were basically a blur :smalleek:

[Gandariel]

LOL.
Oh, and fun fact about Battlecruisers: They have 3 points of natural armor, plus whatever upgrades you have. Vikings do 2 shots for 6+4 damage.
Depending on upgrades, Vikings are actually not that good against BCs.


Well, i guess i won't care much for APM, since it's not really an indication of a player's skill.

Today i played a bit, i won several games thanks to High Templars: Apart from the usual storming enemies and killing them, I feedback'd 6 banshees and 2 ravens in a row to win a game, and a mixture of Oracles and Phoenixes to win another. SO satisfying.

High Templars are AMAZING. Plus they can morph into Archons, which are not exactly the best unit ever, but help with mutas, do decent splash damage and make the HT useful in the battle even after having spent his mana.

The only things that resist both HTs and Archons are stuff like Ultras, Thors, Carrier and Tempest. (and roaches, to a degree).

The "by the book" counter of the HT is supposedly the Ghost, but for some reason Terran players seldom use them. (a shame actually, the EMP thing is cool vs protoss, and nukes are more viable than you'd think).


To sum up, HTs are awesome. And DTs are great too, and air is very viable as well.
All protoss players should stop making robo bays and mindlessly pressing C every game. BOYCOTT THE SPACE GIRAFFES!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

High Templars are AMAZING. Plus they can morph into Archons, which are not exactly the best unit ever, but help with mutas, do decent splash damage and make the HT useful in the battle even after having spent his mana.

The only things that resist both HTs and Archons are stuff like Ultras, Thors, Carrier and Tempest. (and roaches, to a degree).

The "by the book" counter of the HT is supposedly the Ghost, but for some reason Terran players seldom use them. (a shame actually, the EMP thing is cool vs protoss, and nukes are more viable than you'd think).


To sum up, HTs are awesome. And DTs are great too, and air is very viable as well.

Eh, I dunno about nukes, it's too easy to detect these days. It's the EMP's and the Snipes that make them so good. A ghost can snipe an HT down really fast, and EMP's are good against clusters of them.

I agree, they are under-used, probably because they require a whole 'nother building to make them. Kinda the same problem as with BC's.

[Gandariel]

I think people don't give enough credit to nukes.
Imagine a random game, you have three bases, you hear NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED.
You have 20 seconds.
Check your army first, move it around a bit. Ok, it's not there.
Now check your main. is there a red dot? on the workers? the buildings?
You have to check your natural and third as well.
Ghost is likely placed just a couple squares away from the sight range of your static defense. Maybe, even when you see him, your army isn't in place to kill it and you have to make your probes escape?
Do you have any scans to use? do you want to burn scans which may or may not find a ghost?

I am pretty convinced that responding to a nuke is pretty hard.
Especially if you consider that, APM-wise, all the Terran player did was press N. In those 20 seconds the terran can drop you or try a frontal attack. How good are you at multitask?

EDIT: And of course there are those fun "whole army killed with a nuke" things, but THOSE are hard to land.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think people don't give enough credit to nukes.
Imagine a random game, you have three bases, you hear NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED.
You have 20 seconds.
Check your army first, move it around a bit. Ok, it's not there.
Now check your main. is there a red dot? on the workers? the buildings?
You have to check your natural and third as well.
Ghost is likely placed just a couple squares away from the sight range of your static defense. Maybe, even when you see him, your army isn't in place to kill it and you have to make your probes escape?
Do you have any scans to use? do you want to burn scans which may or may not find a ghost?

I am pretty convinced that responding to a nuke is pretty hard.
Especially if you consider that, APM-wise, all the Terran player did was press N. In those 20 seconds the terran can drop you or try a frontal attack. How good are you at multitask?

EDIT: And of course there are those fun "whole army killed with a nuke" things, but THOSE are hard to land.

Move your army, you don't need to look. Check whichever base a ghost CAN get to which also has enough harvesters to be worth the nuke. By the time Ghosts come out, your Main is mined out, so it's either your natural or third, and generally the defenses around your natural are enough that a ghost couldn't get through, that leaves the Third, or maybe a fourth. If you've got a full mining base up somewhere out of the way, that's probably the one.

It's not really that hard determining where the nuke is going to go, because it has to be a) immobile, so they don't just move, b) accessible by stealth, and c) painful enough that a nuke is worth the cost. It really makes it very simple to guess where it is going very rapidly.

Against protoss, you are NOT going to get away with it. By this time, he WILL have obs and blinkstalkers will murder the ghost. Against Terran, you likely won't, because he will have scans and unless he's gone mech he will have the mobility to get you. Zerg might be the only one who you might get lucky with, but only because few zerg players bother with spore colonies, so their only stealth detection are Overseers. Of course, you are only going to get away with that once before he stations detectors at every base.

[Gandariel]

But even then, one spore per base (or really, any amount of spores, turrets or cannons) isn't enough when Nukes have higher range than a Spore's sight range.

I wish i played Terran at a decent level so i could prove it to you guys. If any of you are terran, i really encourage you to try this. Also, nobody really uses nukes, so nobody is really ready to react perfectly.

And yeah, in a vacuum you can respond to a nuke. But can you do it while the enemy is dropping you? or making a frontal push? lots of people in plat and lower can't properly respond to two contemporary attacks.

It is really not that easy. Maybe pros don't use them much because other pros can respond perfectly, but us mortals? i'm pretty sure they work better

[Karoht]

Nukes are best used:
-To break/cripple a wall off and then move in with an army.
-To harass/misdirect enemy attention.
-When you can land multiple nukes back to back, in the same or different locations.
-When you can land multiple nukes at once, in the same or different locations.
-Against a Terran relying on scans.
-Against a Zerg who doesn't have any Overseers.
-Against a Protoss who for some bizarre reason doesn't have any Observers, or if you've just finished killing his only Observer/s.

Against a Terran, if all they have is scans, it is very easy to bait those scans. Send in a Ghost at a really obvious place, near his army. Scan, dead. Do it again, scan dead. Now start dropping nukes, somewhere else entirely. If that nuke lands, drop another one (same spot or elsewhere). Chances are good that if the Terran has 3 bases they probably only have enough energy for 3 scans, so the first two baits should be enough, the third might tell him where the nuke will drop but chances are won't be able to react in time, or will scan near the main army (where you have no ghosts at all) out of reflex. Be sure to factor the cost of 2 bait ghosts and 3 or more nukes into your consideration when planning to go nuke.

If you can pull off a Medivac Drop or two at the same time as you have your enemy searching for your nuke point and reacting, all the better.

IE-Enemy has 3 bases.
Position/bait with Ghosts.
Nuke A
Nuke B, Drop at A or C.
Nuke C or B, Drop at A or B.
Obviously, don't nuke ON the spot you just dropped or plan to drop.
Factor in main army as necessary.
Timing is everything.
Happy Hunting.

[Tectonic Robot]

I saw a cool LiquidTLO game where he dropped like five nukes. He did while he was attacking an enemy mining base with his army, and putting the nukes on ramps so that if the protoss tried to climb the ramp, they'd get nuked, and if they didn't, they'd lose the base to Marines and Marauders.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But even then, one spore per base (or really, any amount of spores, turrets or cannons) isn't enough when Nukes have higher range than a Spore's sight range.Yea, but unless you want to nuke the forward detector building (which I will trade ALL DAY LONG against nukes), then it doesn't matter what the range of the building's sight is vs the range of the nuke, it's a matter of the range of the building's sight vs the range to a worthwhile target.

You might get caught once with a nuke, after that they will have too many feelers out for you to get away with it again. Granted, you might be able to force a panic reaction and spend too many resources on detector buildings, but it's one of those sucker punch moves that are only effective because no one serious bothers with them.


And yeah, in a vacuum you can respond to a nuke. But can you do it while the enemy is dropping you? or making a frontal push? lots of people in plat and lower can't properly respond to two contemporary attacks.However, it is an attack that can be fended off with static defenses. Or at least, it forces you to deal with said static defenses before you can use your nuke effectively. Which means YOU are the one making a multi-prong attack, and risk defeat in detail.


It is really not that easy. Maybe pros don't use them much because other pros can respond perfectly, but us mortals? i'm pretty sure they work better

Perhaps you should play more terran and you will begin to realize why it really isn't all that good. Nukes cost a good chunk of resources *per shot*. And they take a long while to be rebuilt. They aren't as good as you think they are.

[Kyeudo]

So, decided to play some StarCraft (wow, auto-correct knows how to capitalize StarCraft) tonight after being away for so long. Got murdered twice for noob mistakes and was placed into Silver League.

I gave it another try, this time doing the current Funday Monday challenge (can't really fall any farther, right?), and ended up with this gem of a replay (http://www.mediafire.com/?ltz6oghhl84dbaz).

What happens when a worker rush prevents a Terran from building his first supply depot? Apparently crazy happens.

[Artanis]

Three totally unrelated thoughts:

One-

I know the discussion on cheese petered out a little bit ago, but I think I've come up with the start of a rough definition for it. I'd like to emphasize "start of" and "rough": this is a starting point for coming up with something, and there will never be a black-and-white definition. However, I thought it was an interesting thought exercise. Also, as long as I obey the voice in my head when it tells me to do things like think about and then post this, it doesn't start pestering me to set my co-workers on fire :smalltongue:

Cheese (cheez), n.:
A strategy that is difficult or impossible to defeat without the use of a specific response. Cheese usually (but not always) falls into two categories:
1) Strategic cheese: A strategy that gains an advantage by deviating significantly from "standard" play, thereby catching the enemy unawares.
2) Imbalance cheese: A strategy that gains an advantage by leveraging an imbalance in game mechanics, typically in the form of spamming an overpowered unit.

Problems that I already see:
A) Need to word "specific response" so as not to include general, blatantly obvious stuff like needing units that shoot up to fight air units at all.
B) "Standard play" is pretty d*** vague


Two-

Does anybody use Motherships? I don't mean Mothership Cores, which everybody and their dog uses, but the big ones that nobody (except KiWiKaKi, I think) used in WoL either. Seriously, Motherships make BC's seem as ubiquitous as Zerglings by comparison.

Maybe it's just one of those cases where Blizzard has basically said, "yeah, we can't balance this at all levels, so better to be balanced at some and weak at others than balanced at some and OP at others" (which they admit that they do, BTW).


Three-

WCS Hilarity of the Day:
15:09 - OMG SCV SO OP!!!!!!!1111ELEVEN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQx254jRWvM&list=PLhCH_nPE4JTr8eLuG_4TLDrnt2Q18Wb7o&index=2)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Mothership was used sometimes in WoL, but it got nerfed. So now it's never used.

And is that the Funday Monday?

[Kyeudo]

And is that the Funday Monday?

Apparently I only had it half right. You have to worker rush in a team game. Specifically, your first workers must go attack.

[Artanis]

And is that the Funday Monday?

Nah, it's from WCS Europe.
An SCV got the last hit on a Zealot

[Hiro Protagonest]

Nah, it's from WCS Europe.
An SCV got the last hit on a Zealot

I meant Kyeudo's game. I made the post before I put that in, so I didn't quote him.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mothership was used sometimes in WoL, but it got nerfed. So now it's never used.Yea, it was used in Archon Toilet, but that was about it. When that got nerfed, it was pretty much pointless.

[Kyeudo]

Okay, this is getting weird. Tried a drone rush in a 2v2 match and got this (http://www.mediafire.com/?koax8mqasbaa4jf). That's two in a row I've managed to win with a drone rush opening. This is supposed to be stupid and suicidal, but this one features a Terran getting his workers wrecked by poorly-microed drones.

[Gandariel]

@Mothership

Right now the only use i see for a mothership is to hide stuff and stall against Swarm Hosts.

@Cheese. How about this?

A play can be defined cheese when it has a very binary possible outcome:
A cheesy play is, in fact, a very risky play that usually delays several aspects of your build (gas, expansion, tech), but allows you to perform a very strong (or otherwise hard to counter) attack, usually very early in the game.
The outcome is very binary because the attack either wins the game, or is repelled and leaves the player with huge disadvantages because of the aforementioned delays with his macro.
Sometimes a cheesy play can lead to a normal mid and late game, such as when a bunker rush is repelled but at the cost of many enemy workers, but those are not very common scenarios.
Classic cheesy plays are the cannon rush, the 6pool, the proxy 2-rax with bunker rush, worker rushes, proxy 2-gate.

[Artanis]

@Cheese. How about this?

A play can be defined cheese when it has a very binary possible outcome:
A cheesy play is, in fact, a very risky play that usually delays several aspects of your build (gas, expansion, tech), but allows you to perform a very strong (or otherwise hard to counter) attack, usually very early in the game.
The outcome is very binary because the attack either wins the game, or is repelled and leaves the player with huge disadvantages because of the aforementioned delays with his macro.
Sometimes a cheesy play can lead to a normal mid and late game, such as when a bunker rush is repelled but at the cost of many enemy workers, but those are not very common scenarios.
Classic cheesy plays are the cannon rush, the 6pool, the proxy 2-rax with bunker rush, worker rushes, proxy 2-gate.
I thought something along those lines at first, but thought that something with a binary outcome would fall more under the term "All In". There is a LOT of overlap between the two - most cheese is an All In, and many All Ins involve cheese, but there is some stuff that is one but not the other. In particular, a player may get way behind, but then they find a window where they have a brief advantage (such as their 3/3 finishing a little ahead of their opponent's) and seize the opportunity to make a desperate all-or-nothing attack.

[Kyeudo]

I have always defined Cheese as a play which only works if your opponent does not see it coming. DT Rushes are cheese, because they don't work if your opponent gets detection at all.

[Kyeudo]

Could someone please explain the state of the metagame to me? It's kinda hard to get a solid read from down in silver league.

[Tectonic Robot]

Um, um.

I have no idea, either. I just watch Husky recaps and play with my friends.

[Mutant Sheep]

Could someone please explain the state of the metagame to me? It's kinda hard to get a solid read from down in silver league.
Zerg Meta, circa 2010
Zerg:Zerg rush.
Terran:Zerg rush.
Protoss:Zerg rush.

:smalltongue: (Yeah, I dunno.)

[Thiyr]

I have always defined Cheese as a play which only works if your opponent does not see it coming. DT Rushes are cheese, because they don't work if your opponent gets detection at all.

That's generally the definition I use as well, which is convenient for me. It means that when I cannon rush vs protoss, it isn't cheese :D.

As far as the meta goes, no clue. I know marine mine is fairly good vs zerg, and terran mech is still kinda lame, but other than that its hard to get a read from over in 2v2 land.

(also, iirc one of the devs mentioned that they actually actively dislike the mothership less as a matter of balance and more as them wanting it to be a "casual" unit, the kind of thing that isn't good. Why, I have no clue, but as it stands having the same spells between core and full momma make it a waste of space unless you're good at sniping detection.)

[Legoshrimp]

I actually thought they removed the mothership xD.

[Gandariel]

State of the game: (for what i know. I'm top gold, played a couple plats too)

Terran can do both bio and mech.

Bio works as usual, plus some mines. Mech is friggin scary (mainly hellbat/tank/viking with Thors in the end).
I can't tell you any particular timings or strategies. Most people still go bio, anyways.

Zerg: They're using a lot of mutas in general.
Muta/ling/bane is cool vs terran, i've seen it against Toss too.
As a protoss, i've seen several swarmhost centered builds.
One is an "early" thing where you make mass queen, make a path of creep tumors and go to your enemy as fast as possible with mass queen mass swarm host. Hits decently fast.
Another is just Mass swarmhost + whatever you want and lots of static defense, and uses a lot of nydus worms to attack with the locusts. They try to attack your third and fourth to starve you.

Protoss: Can't really tell you since i'm protoss myself.
PvP is a very fast matchup usually: most people go for 1base stuff: 3gate robo, 3gate blink, DT rush.
If they expand, the scariest thing is air, but protoss don't really do that often vs terran or zerg, because marines and hydras are REALLY cost effective vs protoss air.



Now, can i make a small rant about Void Rays:
FRIGGIN VOIDRAYS.

Protoss has NO way to counter Voidrays except more voidrays!

Stalkers are terrible, sentries do pitiful damage, phoenix doesn't do much and Carrier and Tempest die horribly.
The only remaining thing is storm+archons.

I've tried it with mixed success, and the idea i reached is: storm and archons only work if the enemy doesn't do anything and just a-moves towards you. And they only work if you have a LOT of storms and a LOT of archons and all enemy voids are clustered up (and you have to get a good position with your archons, since they''re really big and if you don't micro only 2 or so can shoot)
Still, the voidrays do have the advantage, and if you micro them then storm and archons have no real chance of dealing with them in a remotely cost efficient way.

So what's left? Voidrays of course. The only way to defeat void rays is more void rays.
Which means, if you scout your opponent has gone air, you're already behind, because you have to throw away whatever plans you had (except storms, which may be useful), build your stargates and start your air upgrades, and you'll have to somehow catch up to the enemy's voidray and upgrade count.

[Traab]

In the single player game, which do you guys think is the best choice? The primal zerg drop pods, the leviathan, or the apocalypse? I can see the last one being a nice way to quick nuke a base, the drop pods sound nice but I have never been a big fan of zerglings so im not sure how huge of a difference it would make outside of an emergency, "Oh crap! I am about to get creamed!" scenario. The leviathon I have usually grabbed and just sent off to attack a point by itself, but it doesnt seem to do much damage very quickly.

[Kyeudo]

In the single player game, which do you guys think is the best choice? The primal zerg drop pods, the leviathan, or the apocalypse? I can see the last one being a nice way to quick nuke a base, the drop pods sound nice but I have never been a big fan of zerglings so im not sure how huge of a difference it would make outside of an emergency, "Oh crap! I am about to get creamed!" scenario. The leviathon I have usually grabbed and just sent off to attack a point by itself, but it doesnt seem to do much damage very quickly.

Drop Pods was the way to go. It didn't give just Zerglings, it gave a nice number of hydras and roaches. Add Kerrigan and her OMG abilities and you just murdered everything in your path. When the Drop Pods finally ran out? You got new ones.

[Traab]

Drop Pods was the way to go. It didn't give just Zerglings, it gave a nice number of hydras and roaches. Add Kerrigan and her OMG abilities and you just murdered everything in your path. When the Drop Pods finally ran out? You got new ones.

Hmm, makes sense. Kerrigan can already mow through large numbers of units solo with spawn broodlings chain lightning, and banelings. Being able to drop a sizeable force right in the middle of the enemy would be a handy way to destroy all of everything. :p Seriously, that banelings and broodlings combo is hilarious. I want to give a try to the prison break in without any zerg backup (Except for the part where I have to watch her back of course) just to see how high difficulty I can go and still stomp them flat.

[Karoht]

Leviathan + Mutalisk Pack can head one direction, with your Mutalisks all using the Leviathan as your Rally point.
Kerrigan + Ground Forces can head another.
It makes for a highly successful 2-prong attack typically.

Leviathan also makes a handy "oh, snap" button should your base fall under attack and you've just freshly retreated from a fight.

[Traab]

Leviathan + Mutalisk Pack can head one direction, with your Mutalisks all using the Leviathan as your Rally point.
Kerrigan + Ground Forces can head another.
It makes for a highly successful 2-prong attack typically.

Leviathan also makes a handy "oh, snap" button should your base fall under attack and you've just freshly retreated from a fight.

Hmmm, true true. But I was thinking the drop pods could fulfill the same requirement. Send off kerrigan all by herself one way, my regular army another, and when she single handedly attacks an enemy base, drop pod, banelings and broodlings for a massive swath of destruction. That and the same "Oh crap!" use as the levi. I admit I hadnt thought of a muta swarm, thats a pretty cool idea.

[Artanis]

So I FINALLY managed to finish watching the WCS Europe Ro32, and have a few thoughts on the final standings. Keep in mind that I am a Mathematician (with a degree and everything!), so I tend to read more into numbers than most people, but some things did pique my interest.

Warning: MASSIVE spoilers ahead.


Thoughts on group competitiveness:

When you look at the actual scores, the groups' outcomes were mostly not very close in the end. There were a ton of surprises for sure (NaNiwa NOT going through? WTF?), but for the most part, #1 and #4 were clearly #1 and #4 in the standiings:

-Half of the eight #1s went through 4-0, and three more went 4-1. TitaN was the only one who went 4-2, and one of his dropped maps was to the eventual #2.
-Likewise, six of the eight #4s went 0-4 in maps. Interestingly, the 1-4s both took their single map against somebody who made it through to Ro16.


#2 vs. #3 was sometimes as clear-cut, but not always. Six of the eight deciders were rematches:

-Of those, three (B, C, and E) went to the same player both times (a combined 4-1 in B, 4-2 in C, and 4-0 in E)
-The other three were split. Interestingly, the eventual 2nd place in A and D actually won fewer total maps head-to-head vs. the eventual #3 with a combined 2-3 in maps, but winning out the all-important decider series (H was 2-2).
--I am certain that overconfidence played some sort of role in A, with NaNiwa absolutely obliterating the "lowly" TargA in their first meeting then going down 2-1 in the decider.
-The two non-rematches (F and G) were 2-0 and 2-1.


So ultimately, the #1 and #4 were about as clear-cut (albeit often quite surprising) as it gets, and only about half of the #2 vs. #3 were all that contested. If you remove group A and D, it was basically all #1 smacking down everybody, #2 smacking down everybody else, and #4 just being shooed away like a chubby asthmatic kid trying to join a dodgeball game.


Thoughts on Ro16 groups:

It is absolutely bizarre how perfectly the races matched up for the Ro16 groups, with each group having exactly:

-One #1 Protoss
-One #1 non-Protoss
-One #2 Protoss
-One #2 non-Protoss
-Exactly as many #1 Terrans as #2 Zerg, and vice versa

Hell, even the number of Koreans per group is pretty evenly distributed, with either one or two Koreans per Ro16 group.

The probability of the Ro32 results allowing them to set up a distribution even remotely that perfect is...not high. As a Mathematician, I find that sort of occurrence kinda pretty, in a way.

...and yes, we Math guys can be kinda weird :smalltongue:

[Karoht]

By default, if I have a Leviathan up, I set my Mutas to follow it. If you just want to crush a single path, set the Leviathan to follow Kerrigan and watch the fun. Leviathan will draw most of the fire, and if you have Queens on follow with Kerrigan, chances are that most things won't be able to hurt the Leviathan enough to beat the healing.
All I have to do then is micro Kerrigan then.

[Traab]

I just did the kerrigan drop pod thing. It was very amusing. I had her go out solo to take down all three of the gates and it went pretty damn smooth. My only "uh oh" moment happened when I was feeling froggy and solo attacked the final base just across the bridge from where the last bile launcher goes. Even then it was timing more than anything. My drop pod squad got taken down while in turn taking out the base itself, then the final squad of insta spawns happened to attack where the bile launcher would be. . . right on top of me. Managed to escape back to my nearby army guarding the landing zone so no big deal. If they hadnt been mainly flying units I could have handled them with my banelings and such but ah well, was still fun. I liked it better than the super slow mo leviathan because I didnt have to alter my usual battle strategy to make it work.

[Kyeudo]

...and yes, we Math guys can be kinda weird :smalltongue:

I find the idea that math guys exist kinda wierd. Something that abstract and complicated is something I leave to a computer to do.

[Zevox]

So, I finally picked up Heart of the Swarm, and just finished playing through the campaign. Fairly enjoyable, though I think I preferred Wings of Liberty's (probably because the Zerg are my least favorite faction, granted). Some of Kerrigan's powers get pretty OP though (respawning Zerglings and summoning Banelings especially, particularly combined with those units' evolutions). And on the story, I don't get the point of
turning Kerrigan human again if they were just going to change her back anyway. I guess she ends up less of a monster, but hell, even so she still needed Valerian's prodding to actually try to not kill civilians needlessly. Not exactly a good sign.

Anyway though, I plan on trying to get back into the multiplayer for a bit now. Haven't played in I think two years though, so I'm sure I'll be rusty as hell, and unfamiliar with the changes HotS made. Anybody have any tips for making that transition? Specifically for playing Protoss - I've never branched out into using either of the other factions outside campaigns.

[Gandariel]

Playing protoss hasn't changed much:

First of all, if you do anything other than a FFE, you need to get your gas (or gases) quicker, because as soon as your cyber core finishes you need the 50 gas to start warp gate, 50 gas to start a stalker, and 100 gas to start your mothership core, which is VERY useful as a unit.
(Of course you don't need all of that gas immediately, but it would be good.)
You do need to start either the stalker or the mothership core immediately vs terran in case of reaper.

Mothership Core:
Very useful unit indeed.
If you feel the enemy is going to attack soon, have it stay at home /with your army. Early game, Photon overcharge is AMAZING.
Keep it with your army usually, if there's a big counterattack you can just recall back home.
As soon as it pops out i usually send it to harass mineral lines. Even against Terran it usually gets a couple worker kills. Just have it outside marine's range, move in, kill one, then move away. Or just cast Timebomb on the worker line.

As for everything else.. Air has suddenly become viable, with the Void Ray buff (tempests are not used much).
PvP, if someone gets voidrays, you HAVE to get your own voidrays (or have a LOT of storms, archons and maybe stalkers).

Oh, Oracle is cool for harass, and more people go DT since it now costs less.
Watch out for banshees and mines. And if an enemy goes swarmhost you have to go air.

[Zevox]

Huh, looks like I ought to practice a while against the AI before going online. Just did one game of that to warm up, and wow, all my timing was a wreck after that first Gateway went down. Granted I was never all that good at the game before, but even by my standards it was sad.


Playing protoss hasn't changed much
So, Zealot/Stalker/Colossus is still standard death ball, Zealot/Archon is still a viable alternative against Zerg and Terran, other units see more situational use? Cool, that's easy to remember then.


Mothership Core:
Very useful unit indeed.
If you feel the enemy is going to attack soon, have it stay at home /with your army. Early game, Photon overcharge is AMAZING.
Keep it with your army usually, if there's a big counterattack you can just recall back home.
As soon as it pops out i usually send it to harass mineral lines. Even against Terran it usually gets a couple worker kills. Just have it outside marine's range, move in, kill one, then move away. Or just cast Timebomb on the worker line.
Oo, good-looking new unit indeed. Though it's a Nexus unit, so it'll interrupt Probe production. Guess I ought to prioritize it for Chrono Boost, then.


As for everything else.. Air has suddenly become viable, with the Void Ray buff (tempests are not used much).
PvP, if someone gets voidrays, you HAVE to get your own voidrays (or have a LOT of storms, archons and maybe stalkers).

Oh, Oracle is cool for harass, and more people go DT since it now costs less.
Good to hear - I always liked air units and Dark Templar. How did the Void Rays get buffed?


Watch out for banshees and mines. And if an enemy goes swarmhost you have to go air.
:smallconfused: Really? Granted I didn't use them much, but Swarm Hosts didn't strike me as that scary in campaign mode.

[Artanis]

:smallconfused: Really? Granted I didn't use them much, but Swarm Hosts didn't strike me as that scary in campaign mode.
I'm pretty much the exact opposite of an expert, from what I've read and seen...

Locusts can do an utterly ridiculous amount of damage. And when you consider that they're free and (when upgraded) last a surprisingly long time, Swarm Hosts wind up with a very big, very long-ranged punch. AoE and liberal application of Force Fields can work, but it's probably easiest just to send a pack of Void Rays after them.

[Kyeudo]

Good to hear - I always liked air units and Dark Templar. How did the Void Rays get buffed?


They no longer have to charge up. They just have a button that boosts their dps vs armored targets.

[Gandariel]

Voidrays now do 6+4 vs armored, period is 0.5 i think.
If you activate their ability you get an additional +6 vs Armored for 20 seconds.

Which means, 16*2 = 32 dps vs armored. Unupgraded.

Swarmhosts do a TON of damage, and if you use any ground force you most likely lose a lot every time you fight them.
i think they do 12 damage a shot, with the same period of the marine. And each swarmhost produces 2 locusts.
You CAN use storm, forcefield, and colossus, but you WILL lose stuff.
To break it without many losses you need to have an overwhelming amount of forces. And even if you do, there's a new wave just spawning.
Oh, and i forgot. Zerg use Nydus networks, so the swarmshosts might be just safely at home.

Seriously, GO AIR.


Mothership core is awesome, and takes exactly one chronoboost to finish.

And yeah, those unit composition are ok. Get immortals too though, they're one of the best units of the game.

EDIT: AND observers, people are using more and more DTs (Dark shrine costs less) Banshees (cloak costs less) and Swarm hosts!

[Tectonic Robot]

So, uh.

What arcade games are fun? I have tons of fun memories of playing SC I and WC III custom maps, but not so much with SC II. I've seen a few complaints on reddit about how the arcade didn't have much/what it has isn't advertised, and how the people in charge of SC II have made it seem very antisocial as a game and such.

Me and my few friends would enjoy kicking around on funky custom maps very much, however.

[Karoht]

So, uh.

What arcade games are fun? I have tons of fun memories of playing SC I and WC III custom maps, but not so much with SC II. I've seen a few complaints on reddit about how the arcade didn't have much/what it has isn't advertised, and how the people in charge of SC II have made it seem very antisocial as a game and such.

Me and my few friends would enjoy kicking around on funky custom maps very much, however.
Auir Chef.
Starcraft Universe-Currently just a prelude and a demo boss. They just got funded on Kickstarter after being in development for more than 2 years, so the final finished, fully voice acted, full sound track game, is soon to be released.

There is one that just came out, it looks like a combination Metal Slug and Castlevania.

There was a side scroller beat-em-up a while back, looked hilarious.

Also, you don't need to BUY a copy of starcraft 2 in order to play arcade games. You can totally take the free version and use it. Blizzard encourages this, it's not some trick. Just saying.

[Gandariel]

To play arcade games with the free version you need a friend to push you up.

Anyways, try [Day9]Monobattles, Micro Tournament and Nexus wars.

Monobattles, you should know what they are. Basically, everyone is allowed to only build one unit.
Micro tournament is actually pretty cool, all the players have to duel in a lot of (more or less) equal fights, so that the best micro wins. Stuff like Voidrays+Phoenixes vs Corruptors+Mutas, or 5 zealots vs 5 zealots, ling/bane vs ling/bane, or even huge lategame army battles.

Nexus wars (if it's the one i remember) is basically, you send your units in waves, and you have to kill the other guys' units and attack their base. No actual micro or skill involved, you just decide what to send to the enemy.

Note that for each of these there are several "copies" with same name. You recognize the original because if you mouseover it it has 100 times more reviews than the others :) Pick the right one or you'll stay in the lobby forever waiting for people to join

[Mighty_Chicken]

To play arcade games with the free version you need a friend to push you up.

Actually there's around ten maps you can play even if nobody pushed you up. They're completely free to play.

Regarding the recent balance map discussion (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10081798294#1), why was the Dark Templar speed buff dropped? I don't think it would be ineffiecient. Of course there was the possibility it could make DTs too powerful even if the defender reacted in time, but this could balanced by making DT's attack slower without reducing the DPS.

One Goal (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388155)'s idea for the DT seems nice, too:

-New upgrade: Uraj Amulet
-150/150/80, Dark Templar move 20% faster and become immune to slows, stuns, and mind control

[Zevox]

I'm pretty much the exact opposite of an expert, from what I've read and seen...

Locusts can do an utterly ridiculous amount of damage. And when you consider that they're free and (when upgraded) last a surprisingly long time, Swarm Hosts wind up with a very big, very long-ranged punch. AoE and liberal application of Force Fields can work, but it's probably easiest just to send a pack of Void Rays after them.
Huh. Their damage never seemed that great to me in the campaign, but as I said I didn't use them much, so eh. Low duration for the Locusts was definitely an issue there though - they barely lasted long enough for the next spawn - so if there's an upgrade to that, I could see it helping. Still, the need to burrow to spawn them and the fact that they don't actually go underground when burrowed seems like a pretty bad limitation.


They no longer have to charge up. They just have a button that boosts their dps vs armored targets.
Really? So they're basically at full power all the time now? Holy crap, that is quite the buff. They were already powerful before, they must be damn scary now.


Oh, and i forgot. Zerg use Nydus networks, so the swarmshosts might be just safely at home.
Ack, yeah, combined with an upgrade that boosts their duration, that could be pretty scary. Actually, I hadn't thought of it before, but you didn't get Nydus in the campaign. Kinda sucks, seems like it could be a fun ability.


And yeah, those unit composition are ok. Get immortals too though, they're one of the best units of the game.
Hm, that's higher praise than I'd have given them back when I last played. They seem like one of the more situational units - great against Zerg using a lot of Roaches or Protoss using a lot of Stalkers/Colossi, but not against other common unit compositions, nor against Terran (who always preferred to go MMM against Protoss).


EDIT: AND observers, people are using more and more DTs (Dark shrine costs less) Banshees (cloak costs less) and Swarm hosts!
Yeah, Observers are always important to get, although only a few are really necessary. I did sometimes forget to make a Robo Bay for them when going for air units, though.

[Tectonic Robot]

I'm fairly certain Swarm Hosts are perma burrowed in the multiplayer.

[Kyeudo]

I'm fairly certain Swarm Hosts are perma burrowed in the multiplayer.

They aren't automatically burrowed, but they do go completely burrowed in multiplayer. They are like Lurkers - they get to burrow for free.

[Silverraptor]

They aren't automatically burrowed, but they do go completely burrowed in multiplayer. They are like Lurkers - they get to burrow for free.

Imagine if they couldn't.:smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

Swarm hosts are burrowed (so untargetable) when spawning locusts.

I would never buy the amulet upgrade for DTs.


My thoughts on the current proposed changes (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10081798294):
Terran mech upgrades combined: HELL NO. All other races have to research air upgrades separated for a reason. Battlecruisers, banshees and vikings gain a LOT of DPS from attack upgrades.

Mine nerf, tank buff: That's ok i'd say. Tank and mine are complementary, so if they nerf the mine theye have to buff the tank.

Burrowed roach upgrade: Good upgrade for the game: Nobody uses burrowed roaches for some reason, there's potential for a lot of good stuff happening.

Oracle upgrade: Cool, but they'll only make it more used in the early game.
After a while, you WILL have a robo facility, be it for colossi, immortals, warp prism.
And if you have both a robo and a stargate, and you need something to get detection, it's a no-brainer decision to just get the observer.
Invisible, and way cheaper.

Oracle is very targetable, the detection ability has to be activated, you won't have it up at all times, and it's one more thing to do at the beginning of a battle when you already have tons of stuff to do. I'd be afraid to forget activating it before moving out and dying to mines or DTs.

Actually the speed buff means that if you a-move the army the oracle will be in the front and die first.

EDIT: And Immortals are NOT situational:
Immortals MURDER roaches, stalkers, marauders, tanks, ultras.
Immortals also murder infestors and swarmhosts, but those units are more like "if you get to hit them, they're dead already".
An immortal also kills a colossus, but Colossi with thermal lance have higher range, and so rarely immortals get to shoot colossi.

Also, no matter how, if you micro them a bit Immortals ALWAYS stay alive.
ALWAYS. In every engagement where you still have stuff left at the end, the immortals will be there.
Immortals stay in the back of the army, and deliver steady DPS.
You can build a few every game and you'll be sure that they will be cost effective

[Spuddles]

mech & sky terran are both pretty rare- bionics is very common and has reduced my favorite match up, TvZ, to a predictable and stale game to watch.

making all the upgrades the same may help with that.

as it is, terrans are the most upgrade heavy race, which makes tech switching less appealing.

[Gandariel]

Right now, all races are equally upgrade heavy.
Terran has bio, mech, air. Mech and air share armor.
Zerg has melee, ranged, air. Melee and ranged share armor.
Protoss only has ground and air, but they both have to research 2 different armor types, one of which is shared.

Terran either does pure mech, or bio with Tanks or mines. And tanks and mines are some of the units which rely less on upgrades.

[Traab]

Here is a question im curious about. If you could take any one of the single player evolutionary paths into multiplayer, which would be the most op? Im thinking the roach slow spit would be huge for any ground based combat. Suddenly all your enemy ground units are attacking and moving really really slowly. The banelings evolutionary path would be pretty scary either way. Being able to sneak your own suicide bombers along the cliffs behind the enemy base then cripple the supply line and maybe take out a few other things depending on how many you used. Without a chokepoint to seal off, banelings can cause a hell of alot of havoc. The splitters are also kinda nasty. I admit I cant tell if the 2 little guys do less damage or what, but the fact that they split into two after blowing up and keep on coming is another sizeable edge for pushing through to the enemy base.

[Gandariel]

well the 3-at-a-time, 1-second-spawn-time zerglings. Every zerg would always 6pool and win.

Also the other zergling strain, walloffs would become useless.

Also yeah, both strains of roach (especially the slowing ones)

Also those Vipers with the attack of a corruptor AND the Disabling cloud? And the Infestors which turn a unit to your side forever?

So many things in the campaign mode are really fun to use, but completely gamebreaking in actual multiplayer

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here is a question im curious about. If you could take any one of the single player evolutionary paths into multiplayer, which would be the most op? Im thinking the roach slow spit would be huge for any ground based combat. Suddenly all your enemy ground units are attacking and moving really really slowly. The banelings evolutionary path would be pretty scary either way. Being able to sneak your own suicide bombers along the cliffs behind the enemy base then cripple the supply line and maybe take out a few other things depending on how many you used. Without a chokepoint to seal off, banelings can cause a hell of alot of havoc. The splitters are also kinda nasty. I admit I cant tell if the 2 little guys do less damage or what, but the fact that they split into two after blowing up and keep on coming is another sizeable edge for pushing through to the enemy base.

Pouncelings. Wall-ins will not longer stop a 6 pool. 6 pool now wins everything ever. It's like combining a 6 pool with proxy rax reaper harass.

[Karoht]

Swarm Hosts shooting air. If I had to pick one, that might be it.
Or self healing mutas. Makes those hit and run tactics which I enjoy potentially more viable.
Those two. For sure.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Swarm Hosts shooting air. If I had to pick one, that might be it.In campaign, you had a choice between shooting air or burrow. So if you had to make that choice, it would be far more balanced, because you wouldn't need detection to kill them.
Of course, the teleporting upgrade would be totally OP. Once you push creep, you can apply pressure at every expansion they've got with maximum force.

Or self healing mutas. Makes those hit and run tactics which I enjoy potentially more viable.
Those two. For sure.Yea, self-healing mutas would be really nasty for muta harass.

[Karoht]

In campaign, you had a choice between shooting air or burrow. So if you had to make that choice, it would be far more balanced, because you wouldn't need detection to kill them.
Of course, the teleporting upgrade would be totally OP. Once you push creep, you can apply pressure at every expansion they've got with maximum force.Oh gods, I forgot about teleport creep. That. That all the way.


Yea, self-healing mutas would be really nasty for muta harass.Indeed. Fly in, do a trio of shots, fly away. Repeat. You could effectively test every angle of a given base, or hit one and quickly withdraw and immediatly hit the other.

"Okay, it took him 11 seconds to get his guys up here from his forward defenses, I can spare probably 8 seconds and then run if I hit there."
*withdraw, hit forward defenses*

So many possibilities.

[Gandariel]

Each strain of zergling wins the game. i seriously doubt that anyone could defend a 6pool (for the 3-at-a-time strain) or a 10pool(for the jumper strain).

But yeah, mutas wktn stupidly fast regen are pretty awesome too.

I'm not that afraid about teleporting swarmhosts, because you can do the same (almost) with Nydus worms.

Flying locusts, on the other hand, would be stupidly OP.

[Traab]

There was one kerrigan power I thought was freaking sweet as well as insane. The double drone ability. Can you imagine how much faster it would be to get setup if every larvae produced 2 drones instead of 1? You would be rocking a full base before your opponent got his basic barracks or whatever finished.

[Tectonic Robot]

Man, I just want to see what sort of crazy over powered things the Protoss will get.

Probably warping in units anywhere on the map or something. Dragoons, maybe. I don't even know.

No one's really mentioning Terran stuff that wouldn't be balanced! It's probably because the terran stuff is all old, eh? Most broken thing I can remember would be... hmm... I dunno, tech reactors or the automated refineries or some such.

[Artanis]

A couple of things that would be neat to see:


Tournaments using something other than Red and Blue for the players. I understand that there are a lot of very, very good reasons to stick with Red and Blue, but it'd still be kinda neat to see other colors, even if only in the group stage.

One idea would be to figure out four colors that would work and assign them to the players (like the #1 seed being Red, #2 Blue, #3 Teal, and #4 Orange or something).

*shrug*


Another would be a map where the chokes have both rocks AND a tower. So the player can choose whether to widen it or block it off.

On that note, a map where the main, natural, and rest of the map were at the same elevation. They could separate them by a trench or something to keep the basic defensibility the same (i.e. needing jumpers or fliers to bypass the choke).


On a totally unrelated note...is there anywhere to see a quick list of who all is guaranteed to get to Blizzcon, who is still alive, and who is just plain out? I know that most (if not all) of the players who haven't been knocked out of the ongoing WCS tournaments should still be alive, but still.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Huh. Their damage never seemed that great to me in the campaign, but as I said I didn't use them much, so eh. Low duration for the Locusts was definitely an issue there though - they barely lasted long enough for the next spawn - so if there's an upgrade to that, I could see it helping. Still, the need to burrow to spawn them and the fact that they don't actually go underground when burrowed seems like a pretty bad limitation.
This is utterly invalid in multiplayer unless your opponent just builds up all his defenses and then goes AFK hoping you'll surrender, but in all the assault-entrenched-position missions, Swarm Hosts are actually really, really good. The Terrans will never hunt you down, they'll just stay there and fight off the locusts until they get killed.

Ack, yeah, combined with an upgrade that boosts their duration, that could be pretty scary. Actually, I hadn't thought of it before, but you didn't get Nydus in the campaign. Kinda sucks, seems like it could be a fun ability.

The teleportation ability you can get from the SH's evo mission is nearly as good and doesn't make you build a Nydus network. Go straight from harassing the front lines to defending your base? Hell yeah.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Man, I just want to see what sort of crazy over powered things the Protoss will get.

Probably warping in units anywhere on the map or something. Dragoons, maybe. I don't even know.

No one's really mentioning Terran stuff that wouldn't be balanced! It's probably because the terran stuff is all old, eh? Most broken thing I can remember would be... hmm... I dunno, tech reactors or the automated refineries or some such.

Tech Reactors would be amazing, yea. Automated Refineries are just 3 SCV's per refinery you don't need to worry about (unless you just start dropping auto-refineries on random expos for heavy-gas builds).

The most OP thing you could possibly bring in from the Terran campaign would be the Medics. That was the only reason I built Infestors after the mission they show up... infest medics. Now my Hydra/Roach ball will NEVER die. Particularly Medics with both upgrades.

Maybe the micro-missile swarm from the missile turrets, although that would be something of a trap since it would encourage turtling.

Everything else worthwhile from the campaign is already in multiplayer.

[Tectonic Robot]

Tech Reactors would be amazing, yea. Automated Refineries are just 3 SCV's per refinery you don't need to worry about (unless you just start dropping auto-refineries on random expos for heavy-gas builds).

The most OP thing you could possibly bring in from the Terran campaign would be the Medics. That was the only reason I built Infestors after the mission they show up... infest medics. Now my Hydra/Roach ball will NEVER die. Particularly Medics with both upgrades.

Maybe the micro-missile swarm from the missile turrets, although that would be something of a trap since it would encourage turtling.

Everything else worthwhile from the campaign is already in multiplayer.

Criminy, I forgot about the medics entirely. Those would be pretty unstoppable, yeah.

[Karoht]

A couple of things that would be neat to see:
Tournaments using something other than Red and Blue for the players.

One idea would be to figure out four colors that would work and assign them to the players (like the #1 seed being Red, #2 Blue, #3 Teal, and #4 Orange or something).Again I ask, what tournaments have you been watching?
Teal and Orange come up in MLG pretty commonly. Dark Green I've seen a number of times. I'm not sure how the colors are selected or if it's random, but there have definitely been more than two colors showed off, quite commonly.


Another would be a map where the chokes have both rocks AND a tower. So the player can choose whether to widen it or block it off.Yes. Absolutely.


On a totally unrelated note...is there anywhere to see a quick list of who all is guaranteed to get to Blizzcon, who is still alive, and who is just plain out? I know that most (if not all) of the players who haven't been knocked out of the ongoing WCS tournaments should still be alive, but still.It will probably be on the blizzcon pages once the event schedule gets posted.

Who has two thumbs and is going to Blizzcon 2013?
This guy!
d :smallcool: b

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Criminy, I forgot about the medics entirely. Those would be pretty unstoppable, yeah.

It would make Terran Bio completely unstoppable, particularly if combined with tech reactors. Your basic 'squad' layout would be 2x 'rine 1x marauder 1x medic. Then just repeat with those ratios. Maybe at higher outputs, you can afford to go something like 20x rine 15x marauder 5x medic. They. Just. Won't. DIE!

[Artanis]

Again I ask, what tournaments have you been watching?
Teal and Orange come up in MLG pretty commonly. Dark Green I've seen a number of times. I'm not sure how the colors are selected or if it's random, but there have definitely been more than two colors showed off, quite commonly.


Just what I can find on YouTube, mostly, which at the moment happens to be WCS Europe.

[Karoht]

It would make Terran Bio completely unstoppable, particularly if combined with tech reactors. Your basic 'squad' layout would be 2x 'rine 1x marauder 1x medic. Then just repeat with those ratios. Maybe at higher outputs, you can afford to go something like 20x rine 15x marauder 5x medic. They. Just. Won't. DIE!
1-Medics in the campaign heal for more than the medivacs can. In multi this would probably be tweaked as a 50/50 unit matching or outhealing a 100/100 unit with more building investment doesn't seem like something that would make it to live.
2-Metagame would just switch to focus fire on the medics rather than ignoring them. No amount of medics can stop an instagib.
3-Ghosts would see MUCH more play for EMP, let alone Snipe. High Templar probably would too for Feedback. In fact I would wager that High Templar would become completely vital in a TVP. Phoenix maybe, for Graviton Beam, but it's way to easy to lose a Phoenix in a harass attempt to a squad of marines, and probably not even kill the target fast enough due to the low damage output.
Mind you I'm still lost why current metagame doesn't ever focus on medivacs in a TvT bio ball VS bio ball matchup. I've never understood that.



Just what I can find on YouTube, mostly, which at the moment happens to be WCS Europe.Odd, the last WCS highlight reel I saw had Orange and Green units.

[Traab]

Its not about how to make them work Karoht, its about what campaign creation would be most unbalancing for the game. Like the leaping or fast spawning zerglings. Its just an exercise in, "Oh man it would rock if I could do that."

[Tectonic Robot]

So, anyone have any cool predictions about what the protoss campaign-only units will be?

We've got medics/giant transports/sonic tigers/specters/science vessels for terran, the different strains and lurker/impaler/leviathan/swarm queens for Zerg... what do you think Protoss will bring to the over powered table? Some sort of robot that can regenerate the other unit's shields?

[Karoht]

Its not about how to make them work Karoht, its about what campaign creation would be most unbalancing for the game. Like the leaping or fast spawning zerglings. Its just an exercise in, "Oh man it would rock if I could do that."I'm aware. I'm just pointing out that Medics really wouldn't be as awesome as everyone thinks.


So, anyone have any cool predictions about what the protoss campaign-only units will be?
We've got medics/giant transports/sonic tigers/specters/science vessels for terran, the different strains and lurker/impaler/leviathan/swarm queens for Zerg... what do you think Protoss will bring to the over powered table? Some sort of robot that can regenerate the other unit's shields?Dark Archons, something with more Stealth, warp in to anywhere you have a unit on the map, some sort of warp gate or robo bay unit that rapidly recharges shields (Protoss Medic/Shield Battery) in an area around the unit (maybe even flying like the medivac, possibly with a stealth option even), and probably an expanded list of powers for Dark Templar and High Templar. Dark Templar get Blink and Void Prison just like Zeratul, High Templar get...stuff?
Possibly an uber Archon that takes something bizarre like 4-10 Templar (any combo of Dark and High) to fuse together.
If they bring back Dragoons, I totally expect them to have something new and shiney because Stalkers already do everything the Dragoons do an more, and Immortals are ground attack only Dragoons. So they would need something to distinguish them.
On that note, I wouldn't be surprised if Stalkers got a weak stealth, like something with a super short duration (5 seconds, 40 second CD).
Reavers and Scouts already have models in the game engine, so they'll make a return for the campaign at the very least. With new toys? I somehow doubt it.
And Pylons. I wouldn't be surprised if Pylons somehow got a defensive ability in campaign. Like an uber shield or short term cloak, or a phase out (after the shield drops, the Pylon phases out of existance for 10 seconds rendering it invincible, can only occur once every 2 minutes), or something like that.

Nerf Supply Depots! Buff Pylons!

[Tectonic Robot]

Oh gosh, I totally forgot wraiths/diamondbacks/goliaths in my terran only thing. Dang, they had a lot of units. And firebats, jeesh.

Maybe the Protoss would get cool air things, too. And cool protoss warrior dudes, maybe a zealot with lasers or something, I dunno. Now that I think about it, the Terran force has the units which are more specialized, I think, while the Protoss units are generally more general.

...Maybe. I dunno, now that I think about it again...

Your ideas are solid, Karoht, those are pretty neat.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yeah, Goliaths with that simultaneous-attack thing is pretty powerful against combined arms. Wraiths need to be brought back anyway.

Automated Refinery would be pretty good, since it lets you still get the gas even if you fly away your base to a new mineral patch.

Shockwave missiles would probably see more Banshees to counter zerg rush tactics.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, anyone have any cool predictions about what the protoss campaign-only units will be?

We've got medics/giant transports/sonic tigers/specters/science vessels for terran, the different strains and lurker/impaler/leviathan/swarm queens for Zerg... what do you think Protoss will bring to the over powered table? Some sort of robot that can regenerate the other unit's shields?

What, you mean bringing back the Shield Capacitor building? That would be fun.

Bringing back the Scout would make 'tos air nice, and would be a hard counter to muta harass. Let's face it, the Phoenix just... doesn't cut it as air-to-air. Hell, I'd give up the Phoenix for the Scout so fast that it'd take the shadows of the poor phoenixes a week to catch back up with them.

Bringing back the Dragoon would... not really be all that viable. You've already got the Stalker and the Immortal.

Bringing back the Reaver might be interesting. Something to siege turtles with. Particularly if you give them the expanded capacity upgrade to start with.

Maybe an upgrade to make warping in buildings faster? Or maybe just warping in Pylons faster?

Carriers need a boost somewhere, because as they stand, they aren't really all that viable. By the time you get to them, they aren't really all that strong, even when massed.

Maybe I've played WH40k too long, but I'm thinking something like the Eldar siege unit that can jump cliffs? Be something like a ground-based Tempest that can jump like a Reaper, and have a splash radius. Built out of Robo and requires the additional building like the Colossus.

[Tectonic Robot]

Maybe I've played WH40k too long, but I'm thinking something like the Eldar siege unit that can jump cliffs? Be something like a ground-based Tempest that can jump like a Reaper, and have a splash radius. Built out of Robo and requires the additional building like the Colossus.

That sounds kinda like the colossus, mate. =p

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That sounds kinda like the colossus, mate. =p

Only, yanno, with more building and heavy armor based damage rather than cutting swaths of lightly armored things and being useless against armored targets. ;)

[deuterio12]

Only, yanno, with more building and heavy armor based damage rather than cutting swaths of lightly armored things and being useless against armored targets. ;)

Collossus rip trough ground armored troops almost as well as light blobs. The damage of each beam is still more than high enough to laugh at pretty much any ground armor in the game. Siege tanks, roaches, thors, spine crawlers, photon cannons, they all just melt away as long as you keep a zealot screen to keep the collossus alive.

The glaring weak point of the colossus (besides needing some kind of defensive screen, even if your opponent is just spamming marines/zerglings) is that they can be shot by air. Corruptors and vikings hard counter them extremely easily.

[Zevox]

They aren't automatically burrowed, but they do go completely burrowed in multiplayer. They are like Lurkers - they get to burrow for free.
Huh. Well, that would certainly help them, yeah. Kinda odd that you need one of their special boosts to do that in the campaign if it's standard in multiplayer though. Did they start out like they are in the campaign and get changed as a balance matter or something?


EDIT: And Immortals are NOT situational:
Immortals MURDER roaches, stalkers, marauders, tanks, ultras.
Immortals also murder infestors and swarmhosts, but those units are more like "if you get to hit them, they're dead already".
An immortal also kills a colossus, but Colossi with thermal lance have higher range, and so rarely immortals get to shoot colossi.
They're effective on Marauders as well? Huh, didn't know those were considered armored. Would definitely make them more useful against Terran.

Personally though, in the 50 or so games I played back during WoL, I never once saw Ultralisks used, and Siege Tanks were a rarity (though the latter probably just because Terran preferred to go MMM on Protoss, and I always play Protoss).


Here is a question im curious about. If you could take any one of the single player evolutionary paths into multiplayer, which would be the most op?
I think most of the others hit the nail on the head. Either of the Zergling evolutions would make rushes nigh unstoppable, which I'd count as the single most OP option here. After that, both Roach evolutions would be nasty, but especially the slow effect. And Mutalisk healing would be big as well.

Perhaps the worst would be one of Kerrigan's upgrades rather than any of the unit evolutions, though. Respawning Zerglings. Suddenly you can build a squad of Zerglings, send them on a suicide mission, and not care that they all die, because they'll be back in a couple of minutes tops (30 seconds per 10). And for no cost to boot, so it won't even interrupt you building another, more normal army at the same damn time. Wouldn't help rushes as much as the evolutions would, since the dead Zerglings respawn back at your base and would need to cross the map again, but over the course of a game it'd be more devastating than anything else I think.

[Gandariel]

@Kerrigan's ability:
Respawning zergling is actually the less scary one.
They're like locusts with less damage and way less tech requirements.
What would be scary is double drones AND baneling spawning..
6-7 banelings cast in the middle of the enemy deathball and they most likely lose 30 supply of whatever they had. More, if it's mass marines or hydras.

Protoss OP buffs: they'll get for sure insta-build pylons (like every race), they Will get dark archons, they will get reavers.
What's wrong with Phoenixes? they're awesome ! and they DO cut it vs mutas.
You do need some micro, but phoenixes massacre mutas, and if you get the +range upgrade it's just very onesided.

@Medic discussion: Medics are strong also because they're not targeted. if you A-move you'll target the marines and marauders. you'd have to manually target each medic, which can be a pain in the ass.

[Zevox]

@Kerrigan's ability:
Respawning zergling is actually the less scary one.
They're like locusts with less damage and way less tech requirements.
What would be scary is double drones AND baneling spawning..
6-7 banelings cast in the middle of the enemy deathball and they most likely lose 30 supply of whatever they had. More, if it's mass marines or hydras.
I wasn't looking at ones that would require Kerrigan herself to be present, like Spawn Banelings, just the passive ones.

And the thing about respawning Zerglings vs Locusts: the latter can be cut off by killing the Swarm Hosts spawning them. The former can't, because they spawn from your bases. They'll last all game, guaranteed. (Also, they're faster, especially with their speed upgrade.)

Double drone would probably be OP too, yeah, but in a much more boring way.

[Tectonic Robot]

We should really say 'double workers' because I'm fairly sure all the races are gunna get it in the campaign.

[Zevox]

We should really say 'double workers' because I'm fairly sure all the races are gunna get it in the campaign.
Terrans didn't.

As far as things that we can guess the Protoss will get in their campaign because both of the others did, I think we have:

Double Probe production.
Automated Assimilators
Faster gas harvesting.
Instant-build Pylons
Revive-from-death Colossi. (Terrans got Immortality Protocol Thors, Zerg got Torrasque Ultralisks, so it seems the large ground units are getting this.)
Starcraft 1 units. (Almost certainly Scouts, since we've seen them in the other Campaigns as enemies. Dark Archons and Reavers seem like other decent possibilities. Arbiters maybe, though the Mothership stole most of their abilities. Dragoons and Corsairs might be an off chance, but Stalkers and Phoenixes have pretty much taken their roles wholesale.)

And I think that's it. Otherwise there wasn't any real overlap.

[Kyeudo]

Terrans didn't.


Command Center Reactor let you build SCVs two at a time.

[The Glyphstone]

Terrans didn't.
.

Protoss Research 15 let you develop Command Center Reactor, training 2 SCVs simultaneously. Or is that not what you meant?


EDIT: Dark Templar'd.

[Zevox]

Command Center Reactor let you build SCVs two at a time.

Protoss Research 15 let you develop Command Center Reactor, training 2 SCVs simultaneously. Or is that not what you meant?


EDIT: Dark Templar'd.
Huh. Okay, yeah, I completely forgot about that :smallredface: . Probably because I always took Automated Refineries instead.

So yeah, double Probe production is another one the Protoss will likely get.

[Tectonic Robot]

Huh. Okay, yeah, I completely forgot about that :smallredface: . Probably because I always took Automated Refineries instead.

So yeah, double Probe production is another one the Protoss will likely get.

*patpatpat*

'Tis cool, good sir. 'Tis cool. :smallsmile:

Some of the units present in the alpha might show up, too. Like the one which got stronger the more dudes it killed. Or the dark templar carrier thing which shot shurikens.

[Kyeudo]

Huh. Okay, yeah, I completely forgot about that :smallredface: . Probably because I always took Automated Refineries instead.

Automated Refineries was the better choice of the two. Every Automated Refinery was three supply free workers and could be dropped anywhere on the map, even if you didn't need a base there yet. Command Center Reactor only helped you until you maxed out on workers, something that wasn't really hard to do without it.

[Artanis]

Don't forget the mineral savings that Automated Refineries get as well. Three SCVs plus 3 supply worth of Depots comes to almost 200 minerals :smallsmile:

[Traab]

What were those units called that looked like robo pumas and sent off aoe shocks around them? They are NASTY versus zerg. I only recall seeing them in HotS once, in that infestor mission with the poison gas every few minutes. But even on low difficulty they manage to hurt my troops noticeably. A solid squadron of them against a ground swarm could be popping zerglings like zits.

[Tectonic Robot]

What were those units called that looked like robo pumas and sent off aoe shocks around them? They are NASTY versus zerg. I only recall seeing them in HotS once, in that infestor mission with the poison gas every few minutes. But even on low difficulty they manage to hurt my troops noticeably. A solid squadron of them against a ground swarm could be popping zerglings like zits.


A solid squadron of them against a ground swarm could be popping zerglings like zits.


popping zerglings like zits.

Thank you for that lovely mental image, Traab.

[Traab]

Thank you for that lovely mental image, Traab.

I am to please. Also for the whiteheads. /runs and hides

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What were those units called that looked like robo pumas and sent off aoe shocks around them? They are NASTY versus zerg. I only recall seeing them in HotS once, in that infestor mission with the poison gas every few minutes. But even on low difficulty they manage to hurt my troops noticeably. A solid squadron of them against a ground swarm could be popping zerglings like zits.

I never had much of a problem with them, probably because I tended to Hydra/Roach + infested tanks and infested medics.

It's a shame Hydra/Roach is not more viable in multiplayer.

[Traab]

I never had much of a problem with them, probably because I tended to Hydra/Roach + infested tanks and infested medics.

It's a shame Hydra/Roach is not more viable in multiplayer.

True, I should clarify, they didnt wipe me out or anything, but I did notice the few random zerglings I had exploded and the nearby roaches went orange or yellow, or whatever the heck the first color after green is. But then again, it was like, two of them, and they got to fire off maybe two shots each.

As for the roach/hydra thing. Yeah, that is pretty much literally the only units I ever used in the campaign unless it was one of those missions where you have to use the new one like guarding kerrigan as she hatches. Its simple, straightforward, and covers all your bases in single player. Im sure there are BETTER choices, maybe ways you could clear each mission with a little less loss of life, or to do it faster, but really, with kerrigan there to kick down the doors, I could probably take down half the missions using nothing but drones for the lulz.

[Tectonic Robot]

What counters roach-hydra in the multiplayer? Marine and Marauder? Collosi and storms?

Also: I hear Marine and Marauder and a few medics is all you need to beat practically every mission in the terran campaign.

[Thiyr]

@Traab: The unit is called the Warthog.



(In reality its called the predator. But I had to.)


As far as roach hydra counters, stalker colossus does it well, zealot-templar-archon can do it decently on the toss side. It really comes down to the splash damage to hydras. Mix in a few immortals to taste, and later on down the road archon-templar and/or a good amount of voids to deal with the inevitable corruptors. I can't say quite as much for the terran end, but if I had to guess, tanks and mines would do a decent job, marines to mop up.


As far as the WoL campaign: psh, marauders. I got through most of the missions with just marines and medics. Occasionally mix in the occasional Hercules for dropping _your entire army_ at a moment's notice as needed and you're good.

[Legoshrimp]

It's a shame Hydra/Roach is not more viable in multiplayer.

Hydra roach is pretty common, at least in ZvZ.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As far as the WoL campaign: psh, marauders. I got through most of the missions with just marines and medics. Occasionally mix in the occasional Hercules for dropping _your entire army_ at a moment's notice as needed and you're good.

Yeah, marauders are okay, but they don't get Stim in the campaign. And really, even when you have tech reactors, why would you pump out equal amounts medic-marauder when you could pump out more medics (a full third of your bioball should be medics)?

[Kyeudo]

Hydra roach is pretty common, at least in ZvZ.

If you survive the Ling/Bling openings

[Gandariel]

How to kill roach-hydra:

Basically, you gotta have A) straight out higher DPS, or B) a good source of area damage.

Terran can do both: You can just go MMM and have your marine/marauder ball stim and a-move into the enemy force. Then it's a matter of who has more units, more upgrades, better positioning, better ability to replenish your army.

Terran can also rely heavily on hellbats, tanks, mines and send out big area damage to enemies. Hydras are very frail against tanks.

Protoss doesn't really have cheap, high-DPS units like marines and marauders, so you have to focus more on area damage with Colossi, High Templars and Archons.
Keep a screen of zealots (zealots do have nice dps as well, but they're mostly there for tanking and mineral dump) and dish out that area damage. Try to focus it on the hydras, since they're the most valuable and strong unit.
Also, remember. Hydras have 80 hitpoints. Psionic storm does 80 damage. Yeah, technically a hydra standing in a storm would survive because it would gain 1 hp from natural regeneration, blah blah blah.

Also, Archons are always cool but they have bad range, they might not be able to strike at the Hydras

[Artanis]

Thoughts on the WCS standings now that the WCS EU Ro16 is done:


By my count, there are 46 players who still have a mathematical chance of getting to Blizzcon:

-Innovation is going to Blizzcon, period.
-ForGG is the only player outside the Top 16 who has been eliminated from his regional but can still get to Blizzcon.
-Everybody below ForGG who has not been eliminated from their regional is alive, but requires at least a trip to the Season Finals to get to Blizzcon.

On a side note, 13 of those 46 are non-Korean

[Zevox]

So, I finally worked up the nerve to do actual multiplayer matches today. Did my five placement matches... and wound up in bronze :smallfrown: . Considering last time (which was the first time I'd ever played an RTS in multiplayer, mind) I was placed directly into silver and wound up promoting to gold a little later, that's pretty disappointing.

Of course, it's not like I performed well at all, so I sort of deserve it. My matches mostly involved me sitting in my base trying desperately to keep building things consistently, then moving out when I had somewhere between 100-150 supply of units, only to be crushed by something that countered what I was building.

- First game I went Zealot-Archon with High Templar support, lost to mass Roaches.
- Second I won, mostly because my opponent didn't have a lot built.
- Third I went Zealot/Stalker/Colossus, threw in a lot of Immortals when I saw him massing tanks and using a few other ground mech units. Lost anyway because of the sheer number of tanks.
- Fourth I lost quickly to Terran Mine-rush cheese. Not sure how I could stop it short of going for very early Photon Cannons, honestly.
- Fifth I went for an air force of Void Rays against Zerg, supported by a mostly Zealot ground force. Lost to Roach-Hydra.

There was more to them each than that of course (well, except #4), but that's the gist of what it ended up like :smallfrown: . Very frustrating.

[Gandariel]

Eh, that happens.

a few small tips:
1) don't go pure air against zerg. They can make hydras way faster than you make your air units, and they'll just kill you.
you can switch to air if you see he's going muta/ling, or if he has swarmhost-centered builds, but air just from the beginning is pretty hard.

2) scout
I would also say harass, but quite frankly i have a hard time properly harassing, so just focus on scouting :P
Scouting is easy if you remember to do it.
- send a probe whenever you want (after the 1st pylon, after the gate, whatever you want)
-as soon as the cybercore finishes get a mothership core and/or a stalker.
Send the mothership core behind their mineral line to do some harass. Also you'll see some of his buildings and stuff like that. (if he's terran, you can see how many marines he sends after your core)
Maybe send a stalker to check out if he has a third? a natural? just run away as soon as you see what you wanted to see, he likely doesn't have anything faster than your stalker.
-Sentries have Free hallucination upgrade!
Periodically select a sentry, press C X to create a phoenix and send it in to see his army, bases and buildings =)

Also, expand more and earlier. if you have the mothership core you can hold most early pushes with photon overcharge, don't worry.

[Thiyr]

Pure air vs zerg is risky, but air openings can do nicely at times, in my experience. The trick is that voids aren't your work horse, and you need to keep making guys out of gateways. Its all about the phoenix early on. Zip around, kill a worker or two, kill some overlords, get some information. Remember that phoenixes are actually really good against hydras for a good while. Generally speaking its a good idea to drop a robo shortly after your stargate. If they go hydra, you have them colossi to roast them, start making voids after a little bit to help deal with the corruptors, and you're sittin' pretty. If they get a spire, the robo is of less use, but if you see them start getting roach later on, it'll be useful, and you've already got the stargate to punish Mutas. Get the fleet beacon for range up, upgrades, and if you're in need of some punch, make a carrier or two. Plus, you've got the robo if you need to shift tech to deal with them shifting.

[Kyeudo]

So, I finally worked up the nerve to do actual multiplayer matches today. Did my five placement matches... and wound up in bronze :smallfrown:

I'm a former diamond player currently in silver. What time zone are you in? Maybe we can do some practice together.

[Mutant Sheep]

I am with Kyeu on this. Practice with the Playgrounders. Or give us replays. It is the best way to conquer Silver.:smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, Bronze League Heroes is a good way to see some of the more common blunders found, and some pro tips from Husky how to avoid them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm currently in Silver.

I also haven't played in months... first it was Company of Heroes, now it's Awesomenauts.

[Zevox]

a few small tips:
1) don't go pure air against zerg. They can make hydras way faster than you make your air units, and they'll just kill you.
you can switch to air if you see he's going muta/ling, or if he has swarmhost-centered builds, but air just from the beginning is pretty hard.
That's a pity. I rather like early air openings for harassment against Zerg, since they tend to rely on Queens for anti-air if they can get away with it. Did Phoenix harass quite a lot in WoL, was hoping to get similar mileage out of the new Oracle unit now. But if that Stargate is probably just gonna sit there after popping out only a few units... :smallsigh:


2) scout
Yeah, that's something I'm terrible at. I can always remember to scout with a Probe after my first Pylon or Gateway, but after that, I completely forget. Always had that problem before, too.


Send the mothership core behind their mineral line to do some harass. Also you'll see some of his buildings and stuff like that. (if he's terran, you can see how many marines he sends after your core)
Eh, I played with that in my single-player testing, and I just don't like how it works. The Mothership Core is rather slow, so it takes some time getting to the enemy base, and if it gets in trouble I usually have to blow its energy on Recall to get it out, which means it won't have the energy for Photon Overcharge - and I can't afford to spend its energy on Time Warping the mineral line.


Maybe send a stalker to check out if he has a third? a natural? just run away as soon as you see what you wanted to see, he likely doesn't have anything faster than your stalker.
What about a Zerg player with Zerglings? Especially with the speed upgrade, but I think even without they're as fast as a Stalker.


-Sentries have Free hallucination upgrade!
Periodically select a sentry, press C X to create a phoenix and send it in to see his army, bases and buildings =)
Now that I wish I'd known before! I though Hallucination was still an upgrade that wasn't worth the time or money. Definitely going to need to play with that.


Also, expand more and earlier. if you have the mothership core you can hold most early pushes with photon overcharge, don't worry.
That's another thing I definitely have an issue with. I'm fine at expanding to my natural, but utterly awful at going beyond that. I never know what a good time to do it is, worry about defending it, and honestly I can't keep up with my income even off just two bases operating at full worker capacity anyway, so three seems excessive. It's certainly a big problem for games that run long though - a couple of those placement matches did see my first base run out of minerals, which caused me to scramble to put up a third so those workers had something to do, which usually just got that third picked off by my opponent just before I lost.


I'm a former diamond player currently in silver. What time zone are you in? Maybe we can do some practice together.
Eastern US.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Eh, that happens.

a few small tips:
1) don't go pure air against zerg. They can make hydras way faster than you make your air units, and they'll just kill you.
you can switch to air if you see he's going muta/ling, or if he has swarmhost-centered builds, but air just from the beginning is pretty hard.I wouldn't say that, a couple of early VR's and an oracle can really shut down expos and ruin his day before he has a chance to counter effectively.


2) scout
I would also say harass, but quite frankly i have a hard time properly harassing, so just focus on scouting :P
Scouting is easy if you remember to do it.
- send a probe whenever you want (after the 1st pylon, after the gate, whatever you want)
-as soon as the cybercore finishes get a mothership core and/or a stalker.
Send the mothership core behind their mineral line to do some harass. Also you'll see some of his buildings and stuff like that. (if he's terran, you can see how many marines he sends after your core)
Maybe send a stalker to check out if he has a third? a natural? just run away as soon as you see what you wanted to see, he likely doesn't have anything faster than your stalker.
-Sentries have Free hallucination upgrade!
Periodically select a sentry, press C X to create a phoenix and send it in to see his army, bases and buildings =)Of course, scouting is only half the battle. The other half is knowing what has been presented actually means in terms of what you should do.


Also, expand more and earlier. if you have the mothership core you can hold most early pushes with photon overcharge, don't worry.

Agreed. He who turtles, gets out-macro'd.

[Gandariel]

Just to make it clear:
early game air harassment is totally viable. very early, oracles, phoenixes, voidrays, they all work well.

The point is, if you just add stargates and keep making air units, the enemy is gonna swarm you with Hydras and kill you.
He may get air units of his own, but Hydras are cheaper, and cost-effective against all air units in the game.

Mothership core is rather slow, yes, but can work ok. I'll check if i have a replay to show you what i mean

And yes, Free hallucination is AMAZING. Get the free scouts from phoenixes, scare your opponent with a couple extra immortals or just get free meat shields: Archons have 360 life and don't get extra damage from almost anything, Immortals have that special shield thing.

Remember that hallucinations take double damage from everything (so hallucinated immortals take max 20 shield damage from an attack).

Before an engagement, if you have time, get a few hallucinations and put them in front of the army, you'll absorb the first shots for free.

EDIT: Oh, and if you Hallucinate zealots or stalkers you get two of them =)

[Artanis]

And yes, Free hallucination is AMAZING. Get the free scouts from phoenixes, scare your opponent with a couple extra immortals or just get free meat shields: Archons have 360 life and don't get extra damage from almost anything, Immortals have that special shield thing.
Also, if you ever find yourself up against IdrA, you can hallucinate a bunch of Void Rays and make him rage quit :smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

Also, Bronze League Heroes is a good way to see some of the more common blunders found, and some pro tips from Husky how to avoid them.

i watched a couple of those. The tips he gives are reeeeeally basic. like "make orbital commands" or "get warp gate" but still useful, i suppose

[Thiyr]

The point is, if you just add stargates and keep making air units, the enemy is gonna swarm you with Hydras and kill you.
He may get air units of his own, but Hydras are cheaper, and cost-effective against all air units in the game.



Not entirely true, but true enough for most practical purposes. Hydras are actually not cost-effective vs carriers. The trick there is that they're really TIME effective. Carriers take so terribly long to build that you can't get enough of them without a lot of time. But if you have time, resources, and an inability to make the swap to colossi, well, THEN carriers are a solid choice. (They're also a good unit to mix in late game if you've got to infrastructure up already. Seems like every time I make them and get into a giant army-on-army fight, I limp away with 3 carriers after both armies cancel out. Sturdy ol' boats.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just to make it clear:
early game air harassment is totally viable. very early, oracles, phoenixes, voidrays, they all work well.

The point is, if you just add stargates and keep making air units, the enemy is gonna swarm you with Hydras and kill you.
He may get air units of his own, but Hydras are cheaper, and cost-effective against all air units in the game.Yes and no. If you build four VR's and take down his expo and his main hatch/lair/hive, you've pretty much prevented him from building Hydras in the first place. Send an oracle along to snipe drones and queens, and it's pretty much GG if the zerg doesn't scout it and start bulding Hydras before those VR's come knocking.

[Karoht]

Also, if you ever find yourself up against IdrA, you can hallucinate a bunch of Void Rays and make him rage quit :smalltongue:
IdrA quit.
Like, for good.
Like, almost a year ago.
Mostly because he's been kicked off Team Liquid several times, he got kicked off another team, and without a team to support him with residual, no sponsor wanted to touch him, and he wasn't even good enough to reach qualifiers on his own.
Even with the IdrA fanclub defending his jerkwad behavior to fellow players, his streaming audience, his fanclub, his team, etc, the world eventually shrugged him off. And without the backers, he had no livelyhood, so he rage-quit StarCraft, and went and got a job. I hear he's working fast food.

TL:DR-Don't be a douchebag player or the world eventually drops you like a hot potato.

[Artanis]

IdrA quit.
Like, for good.
Like, almost a year ago.
Mostly because he's been kicked off Team Liquid several times, he got kicked off another team, and without a team to support him with residual, no sponsor wanted to touch him, and he wasn't even good enough to reach qualifiers on his own.
Even with the IdrA fanclub defending his jerkwad behavior to fellow players, his streaming audience, his fanclub, his team, etc, the world eventually shrugged him off. And without the backers, he had no livelyhood, so he rage-quit StarCraft, and went and got a job. I hear he's working fast food.

TL:DR-Don't be a douchebag player or the world eventually drops you like a hot potato.
It was supposed to be a joke :smallfrown:

[Hiro Protagonest]

IdrA quit.
Like, for good.
Like, almost a year ago.
Mostly because he's been kicked off Team Liquid several times, he got kicked off another team, and without a team to support him with residual, no sponsor wanted to touch him, and he wasn't even good enough to reach qualifiers on his own.
Even with the IdrA fanclub defending his jerkwad behavior to fellow players, his streaming audience, his fanclub, his team, etc, the world eventually shrugged him off. And without the backers, he had no livelyhood, so he rage-quit StarCraft, and went and got a job. I hear he's working fast food.

TL:DR-Don't be a douchebag player or the world eventually drops you like a hot potato.

...Not sure if sarcastic.

Isn't IdrA an analytical commentator?

[Artanis]

So Lucifron vs. Dayshi was awesome.

Just for fun, Dayshi decided to go Random instead of Terran, and kept winding up with Zerg. That went...poorly for him.

My favorite moment was in game 2 when Lucifron moved out, and one of the commentators went, "Well, Lucifron is moving out with units, which is a pretty good composition against Dayshi's no units".

[Legoshrimp]

IdrA quit.
Like, for good.
Like, almost a year ago.
Mostly because he's been kicked off Team Liquid several times, he got kicked off another team, and without a team to support him with residual, no sponsor wanted to touch him, and he wasn't even good enough to reach qualifiers on his own.
Even with the IdrA fanclub defending his jerkwad behavior to fellow players, his streaming audience, his fanclub, his team, etc, the world eventually shrugged him off. And without the backers, he had no livelyhood, so he rage-quit StarCraft, and went and got a job. I hear he's working fast food.

TL:DR-Don't be a douchebag player or the world eventually drops you like a hot potato.

Idra was never on team liquid(he has been banned from the teamliquid.net forums multiple times though). He was kicked from Evil Geniuses less than 6 months ago, he streams/and does coaching regularly getting decent view counts, and has done some commentating.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Idra was never on team liquid(he has been banned from the teamliquid.net forums multiple times though). He was kicked from Evil Geniuses less than 6 months ago, he streams/and does coaching regularly getting decent view counts, and has done some commentating.

Oh yeah, IdrA definitely still plays too. His life isn't some big disaster because he got kicked off the team he was on for bad behavior. He's still really good at this game and has a following of PewDiePie fans.

[Tectonic Robot]

Wait, people who like Pewdiepie like this IdrA fella?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wait, people who like Pewdiepie like this IdrA fella?

IdrA's main schtick as a player is for cursing at everything and calling it OP. That's a magnet for the type of people who like PDP.

[Kyeudo]

IdrA's main schtick as a player is for cursing at everything and calling it OP.

Some of the things I liked when I used to watch his games was an almost prescient ability to time things.

*Idra has nothing but drones*
*Attack moves out*
*Roaches spawn*
*Attack gets killed by roaches*

[Gandariel]

Opening SCII these days:

" Get back to school with 50% off SCII! "

... Wait, what?

[Gandariel]

Update on my part: if anyone cares

got to number 1 gold, still have a lot of bonus points pool, i have a pretty good win ratio. Expecting a promotion soon, if i manage to play these days.

I went mass voidrays against a couple Toss players who ragequitted since "they were so much better than me but voidrays are so OP" (i checked, i have better macro too :P). Still, voidrays are friggin' good.

Oh, also one time i got cannon rushed. I just rushed my mothership core and a stalker, then built a second nexus just in case i lost my first one during the cannon rush. i waited out and had some probes long distance mine for a while until i got the Photon Overcharge. When i finally got it, i was easily able to destroy every cannon. (i could attack them with MSC and stalker too, since cannons targeted my nexus due to higher DPS). AND i had an expo up.
All in all, i didn't overreact, i only lost a couple probes,a zealot, and some mining time.
Then, i scouted with an hallucinated phoenix, scouted him going for robo and then colossus, i went double stargates and killed him with voidrays.

I also played a few arcade games: Monobattles are still fun, Desert strike and Nexus wars are long but cool.

Oh, an amazing arcade game is called Micro Tournament. You challenge each other in a long series of micro battles. roaches vs stalkers, zealots vs zealots, ling/bane battles, a lot of them.
It's pretty fun, sadly not a lot of people plays that, so you might have to get some friends to play with you.

[Karoht]

@Starcraft Arcade
StarCraft Universe
Look it up!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I start off a match with glhf. He responds with 'lol n00b u r ded just qq already'. Ahh, one of those matches. Right, so early scout, because we already know where this is going.

Sure enough, forge and no gate. Right, so that means he's going to put the Pylon just outside of sight range of my command center, where he can put a couple of cannons also out of sight. By this time, my rax was already down, of course. Delayed gas an orbital command.

Oh, and apparently I must be map hacking because there is NO WAY I could've had vision where he put the pylon... despite the fact that I saw the probe head over in that direction, and my SCV spotted forge and no gate in his base.

But clearly, I must have hacked to have known he was putting a pylon down there. You know, where EVERY cannon-rusher puts their pylon.

And because I knew there was going to be a cannon rush, I had an early marine come out to deal with it, delaying my gas and orbital command. Then once I got my orbital command up, I got an engi for +1 attack, a couple more rax, and dropped a turret back behind my mineral line. Because the natural follow-up for a failed cannon rush is going to be a DT rush. Yes, I've delayed my expo, but what the heck, I mostly suck at SC2 anyways.

Right, so I start up my 3 rax, one with a reactor cranking out 'rines and the other two dedicated to marauders. Oh, and a Factory to crank out a couple of widow mines.

Here comes the DT drop. Oh, and then the conversion over to power to warpgate in more DT's. Unfortunately, the widow mines roflstomped them before the bio ball could react.

Of course, now it's PROOF! PROOF! that I was haxxing, because there's NO WAY I could've known he was going to DT rush me. Because that's such an original idea that NO ONE could have predicted it!!!

Oh, and I was resource hacking as well, because NO ONE can have 100 supply army at the mere 15 minute mark...

I mean... come on. Yes, I suck at SC2. I fail horribly. But even I know what a Cannon Rush is, and what a DT rush is, and how to defeat them both.

At that point, he ragequit, claiming he was going to report me.

Granted, if he had just gone 4gate, I could've still probably taken him simply because I had maxed out my SCV's on the one base and was going to expo after his next push, simply because terran bio-ball is just that good. I also had a couple of mines at my front ramp. But he wouldn't have been able to go Colossi and I doubt he had the micro for storming, which would've been my only two real concerns.

Maybe I should submit it to HuskyReplays for submission to Bronze League Heroes.

[The Glyphstone]

:smallwink:Doooo eeeeeeeet.

Failed cheese, twice, plus poor-sportsman raeg and accusations of hacking? That's like the perfect trifecta of fail all in one glorious match.

Or at least share the video with us.

[Karoht]

I feel bad for the Blizzard guys who have to sort through reports like that.

I mean, we all know that kid didn't report anything, but sheesh, the number of reports they probably get like that a day is probably absurd.

[Artanis]

Maybe I should submit it to HuskyReplays for submission to Bronze League Heroes.
DOITNOW DOITNOW DOITNOW DOITNOW!



I feel bad for the Blizzard guys who have to sort through reports like that.

I mean, we all know that kid didn't report anything, but sheesh, the number of reports they probably get like that a day is probably absurd.
They probably just ignore everything below Gold. If somebody hacks and is still that bad, they probably aren't much of an issue :smalltongue:

[Traab]

DOITNOW DOITNOW DOITNOW DOITNOW!



They probably just ignore everything below Gold. If somebody hacks and is still that bad, they probably aren't much of an issue :smalltongue:

Thats. . . actually a good point. I admit I dont do multiplayer so im not sure how it works, but dont you auto upgrade according to your win/loss record? So yeah, if you are doing all sorts of fun hacks and still cant get past gold, you are a very sad little man.

[Artanis]

Thats. . . actually a good point. I admit I dont do multiplayer so im not sure how it works, but dont you auto upgrade according to your win/loss record? So yeah, if you are doing all sorts of fun hacks and still cant get past gold, you are a very sad little man.
It's based on wins and losses, but not the win/loss record itself. My understanding of it is that it uses a rating that is similar in concept to Elo to match you up with people around your supposed skill level, and puts you in a league based on that rating. If you keep winning, your rating goes up, and you get promoted if your rating goes high enough. Likewise, if you keep losing, your rating goes down, and you eventually get demoted.

[Gandariel]

Yeah, i'd like to see the video too.
I almost never lose to cannon rushes anymore, but when i started playing and i lost to them, that frustrated me SO much.

Oh, also. Once, in a team game, some a**hole in my team wanted to troll us, so he took all of his workers and began attacking my bases. I couldn't block it and had a hard time killing his units because i had to manually do it.
I had randomed zerg, and i kept losing all three hatcheries, my buildings were losing health because no creep.. i just quit after a while.

[Silverraptor]

I start off a match with glhf. He responds with 'lol n00b u r ded just qq already'. Ahh, one of those matches. Right, so early scout, because we already know where this is going.

Sure enough, forge and no gate. Right, so that means he's going to put the Pylon just outside of sight range of my command center, where he can put a couple of cannons also out of sight. By this time, my rax was already down, of course. Delayed gas an orbital command.

Oh, and apparently I must be map hacking because there is NO WAY I could've had vision where he put the pylon... despite the fact that I saw the probe head over in that direction, and my SCV spotted forge and no gate in his base.

But clearly, I must have hacked to have known he was putting a pylon down there. You know, where EVERY cannon-rusher puts their pylon.

And because I knew there was going to be a cannon rush, I had an early marine come out to deal with it, delaying my gas and orbital command. Then once I got my orbital command up, I got an engi for +1 attack, a couple more rax, and dropped a turret back behind my mineral line. Because the natural follow-up for a failed cannon rush is going to be a DT rush. Yes, I've delayed my expo, but what the heck, I mostly suck at SC2 anyways.

Right, so I start up my 3 rax, one with a reactor cranking out 'rines and the other two dedicated to marauders. Oh, and a Factory to crank out a couple of widow mines.

Here comes the DT drop. Oh, and then the conversion over to power to warpgate in more DT's. Unfortunately, the widow mines roflstomped them before the bio ball could react.

Of course, now it's PROOF! PROOF! that I was haxxing, because there's NO WAY I could've known he was going to DT rush me. Because that's such an original idea that NO ONE could have predicted it!!!

Oh, and I was resource hacking as well, because NO ONE can have 100 supply army at the mere 15 minute mark...

I mean... come on. Yes, I suck at SC2. I fail horribly. But even I know what a Cannon Rush is, and what a DT rush is, and how to defeat them both.

At that point, he ragequit, claiming he was going to report me.

Granted, if he had just gone 4gate, I could've still probably taken him simply because I had maxed out my SCV's on the one base and was going to expo after his next push, simply because terran bio-ball is just that good. I also had a couple of mines at my front ramp. But he wouldn't have been able to go Colossi and I doubt he had the micro for storming, which would've been my only two real concerns.

Maybe I should submit it to HuskyReplays for submission to Bronze League Heroes.

Post the replay for us too.:smallsmile:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

DAMNIT!!!!

Okay, I run Mint15, so I use WINE and PlayOnLinux to play SC2. Apparently the game file was saved on a virtual drive which was then removed when I closed the instance. I'm searching my hard drive for traces of where that save file went to, even scouring the temp folders. I've tried .wine//dosdevices/c:/Program Files, and I've tried .PlayOnLinux/wineprefix/SC2/drive_c/SC2, but the folders there yield no game file. I even went to .PlayOnLinux/wineprefix/SC2/drive_c/users/Public/ApplicationData/SC2 and no such luck.

Perhaps if I keep sucking at SC2 long enough, I'll run into him, or one like him.

It was particularly funny because when I asked him if he was IdrA, the guy stated (and pardon if I paraphrase) that he was a big fan of IrdA. Go fig.

[Tectonic Robot]

DAMNIT!!!!

Okay, I run Mint15, so I use WINE and PlayOnLinux to play SC2. Apparently the game file was saved on a virtual drive which was then removed when I closed the instance. I'm searching my hard drive for traces of where that save file went to, even scouring the temp folders. I've tried .wine//dosdevices/c:/Program Files, and I've tried .PlayOnLinux/wineprefix/SC2/drive_c/SC2, but the folders there yield no game file. I even went to .PlayOnLinux/wineprefix/SC2/drive_c/users/Public/ApplicationData/SC2 and no such luck.

Perhaps if I keep sucking at SC2 long enough, I'll run into him, or one like him.

It was particularly funny because when I asked him if he was IdrA, the guy stated (and pardon if I paraphrase) that he was a big fan of IrdA. Go fig.

You faiiiileeeeed ussssss.

Faaaaaaaaaaiiiiiileeeeeeed ussssssss.

You must pay the great Starcraft II discussion thread a tribute of some sort, something replay-ish, maybe, I dunno, or some sort of custom map, we're flexible.

[Zevox]

:smallconfused: Wait, hold on, how does this game's matchmaking work? I just played a couple of games today, and got paired with gold players both times. I'm in bronze, shouldn't it only pair me with other bronze players? Or at most maybe silver? What the hell?

[Kyeudo]

:smallconfused: Wait, hold on, how does this game's matchmaking work? I just played a couple of games today, and got paired with gold players both times. I'm in bronze, shouldn't it only pair me with other bronze players? Or at most maybe silver? What the hell?

Your MMR is a secret value and is used to figure who you should play next. It is not the same as your ladder ranking. There is also a window around it, so you can get paired above and below your rank.

If you have been on a winning streak, your MMR may have risen, but the game does not move you to a new league until your MMR stabilizes somewhat (you start losing and winning again in roughly equal proportions). If you are playing Gold players, you may actually be being considered for getting moved to Gold league. It is theoretically possible to skip leagues, although I haven't heard of it.

[Zevox]

Your MMR is a secret value and is used to figure who you should play next. It is not the same as your ladder ranking. There is also a window around it, so you can get paired above and below your rank.

If you have been on a winning streak, your MMR may have risen, but the game does not move you to a new league until your MMR stabilizes somewhat (you start losing and winning again in roughly equal proportions). If you are playing Gold players, you may actually be being considered for getting moved to Gold league. It is theoretically possible to skip leagues, although I haven't heard of it.
:smallconfused: Then what's the point of the league ranking, if that point value is what's actually important? That's just frustrating design. Especially the part where I can't even know what mine is because it's secret. :smallannoyed:

The only reason I can think of for why my MMR would have me being paired with gold players is if my ranking from that one WoL season I participated in affects it. Back then I was in gold. Now I've played only a handful of games, and lost most of them.

And honestly, it's kind of annoying and disappointing. I haven't been able to work up the nerve to play much the past couple of days, because I worry about how I'll perform, and how I can get better. Today the thought occurred to me that since I was placed into bronze I could just goof off for fun for a little while, and worry about getting better later, when I'm more used to the game again. If I'm getting paired with people that will just stomp me if I try to do that, however... :smallfrown:

[Artanis]

Come to think of it though, Shneeky's replay might not have had enough combined FAIL to make it into Bronze League Heroes. Sure, the opponent was ten kinds of terrible, but Shneeky's competence may have balanced that out too much for Sinvicta to choose it :smallfrown:



Edit for Dark Templar posts:


:smallconfused: Then what's the point of the league ranking, if that point value is what's actually important? That's just frustrating design. Especially the part where I can't even know what mine is because it's secret. :smallannoyed:
As has been said, the MMR is secret, so the League ranking gives you something to strive for. It's a carrot dangled in front of players.

As for getting matched up with players outside your league: AFAIK, the leagues are just based on MMR percentile. The bottom 20% in MMR are Bronze, 20% through 40% in Silver, etc. If skill (and thus MMR) follows a bell curve, then people at the very edges of their league will be closer to people in the next league than they will to much of their own. It would get most extreme around the top of silver and bottom of plat: the very best Silver player would be closer in MMR to the very worst Plat than he would be to the very worst Silver :smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

Well, to put it simply, the league is where you can say your level to be.
If you say "i'm in platinum" people get that you're in that range of level.

Then, MMR, fighting people of higher rank, etc. That's all stuff to make sure that people in gold are gold-level, and so on. That's a lot of math and calculus to make sure that you go to the league where you belong

[Kyeudo]

:smallconfused: Then what's the point of the league ranking, if that point value is what's actually important? That's just frustrating design. Especially the part where I can't even know what mine is because it's secret. :smallannoyed:


If you play a lot, your visible rank will approximate your MMR. The visible rank is really more a thing to let you know how much you are winning in a given season, adjusting to activity levels using the bonus pool.



The only reason I can think of for why my MMR would have me being paired with gold players is if my ranking from that one WoL season I participated in affects it. Back then I was in gold. Now I've played only a handful of games, and lost most of them.


It does somewhat carry over. Not sure how much.



And honestly, it's kind of annoying and disappointing. I haven't been able to work up the nerve to play much the past couple of days, because I worry about how I'll perform, and how I can get better. Today the thought occurred to me that since I was placed into bronze I could just goof off for fun for a little while, and worry about getting better later, when I'm more used to the game again. If I'm getting paired with people that will just stomp me if I try to do that, however... :smallfrown:

Stop worrying. The MMR will ensure that you get matched against people roughly as good as you are, so your games are going to be fair. You can beat your opponents. If you are actively trying to learn, you might even be better than your MMR says you are.

[Artanis]

Oh hey, page 48. Guess it's time to start deciding on the next thread's title!

StarCraft 2, Thread 9: I have the HotS for Kerrigan!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Come to think of it though, Shneeky's replay might not have had enough combined FAIL to make it into Bronze League Heroes. Sure, the opponent was ten kinds of terrible, but Shneeky's competence may have balanced that out too much for Sinvicta to choose it :smallfrown:

I dunno, I mean... I overreacted when I saw the forge and sent like ALL my SCV's out until my marine could handle it, I was at the 10 minute mark before my orbital command came out, I was hovering like 1k minerals once I got my orbital command, and I never actually dropped any mules. In fact, I never once used my orbital command's energy. It might as well have been a normal command center. Oh, and a bad habit from campaign mode, I generally had one SCV running around doing building, and just sitting idle when not building anything. So yea, I had idle SCV's for a good chunk of the game.

So yea, I was definitely not being very 'pro' either. But hey... it doesn't take much to realize your opponent is going to cannon rush you. Particularly not when they practically announce it by opening leetspeek.

Right now, I'm doing some AI matches to try and work my macro and build order up. You know, not really trying to challenge anyone, I just want to be sure I can get my initial supply depot and rax down in the proper timing while still pumping SCV's and not getting supply blocked. The fact that this is a challenge for me pretty much states how badly I fail at this game right now.

[Gandariel]

Yeah, take it one step at a time.

try this one:
First, build a depo. Then build a command center next to the depo, and then a barracks. These three buildings should form a wall-in.
[never stop building SCVs, by the way]
As soon as the bartacks finishes, make both CCs into Orbitals, and start pumping out marines.
Build a Bunker in front of your natural, fill it with marines, (and keep building them!) and move the second CC into your natural.
Keep building SCVs and getting MULES. Next depos should go towards making a wall for the entrance of your natural.

After this, go with whatever you want.

This shouldn't be hard to follow, and it is a good opener which keeps you more or less safe and gives you an economic edge =)

[Zevox]

As has been said, the MMR is secret, so the League ranking gives you something to strive for. It's a carrot dangled in front of players.
That's nice for people who care about that sort of thing I suppose. Me, the only reason I actually used ranked modes in multiplayer games is because it's supposed to match me up with people around my skill level, so I don't end up just getting overwhelmed by players much better than me all the time.


Stop worrying. The MMR will ensure that you get matched against people roughly as good as you are, so your games are going to be fair. You can beat your opponents. If you are actively trying to learn, you might even be better than your MMR says you are.
That may be so normally. However, in this case:

It does somewhat carry over. Not sure how much.
This part presents something of a contradiction there. If my present MMR is partially based on my performance two years ago, which to all appearances thus far does not reflect my ability in the present, and it's causing me to get paired with players two ranks above me, I think there's a problem for me here.

[Karoht]

It was particularly funny because when I asked him if he was IdrA, the guy stated (and pardon if I paraphrase) that he was a big fan of IrdA. Go fig.
"I'm a fan of IdrA."
"Stupid Blizzard for making your army OP."
"You scouted my highly telegraphed cheese tactic? Clearly you must be cheating. Not just cheating, HACKING!"
"Reporting!"

Ah, the sounds of the fan-dumb at work.
Oh well, at least it isn't as toxic as LoL or DOTA2. If you ever want to see a toxic game community, picture 10 IdrA clones playing 5v5. Honestly, LoL and DOTA2 players make IdrA look like a boy scout.

[Artanis]

That's nice for people who care about that sort of thing I suppose. Me, the only reason I actually used ranked modes in multiplayer games is because it's supposed to match me up with people around my skill level, so I don't end up just getting overwhelmed by players much better than me all the time.
In theory, that's what the MMR is supposed to do. A lot of people don't understand the leagues very well, so they freak out when they get matched with somebody from a higher league who is actually very close to their skill level. For instance, the guys at the very top of Silver are actually going to be very close to the guys at the very bottom of Gold.


*thinks*

A similar situation would be letter grades on test scores. Somebody who scores an 80 gets a B, somebody who scores an 89 gets a B, and somebody who scores a 90 gets an A. The 80 and the 89 have the same letter on the test, but the 89 is a hell of a lot closer to the 90 than he is to the 80. So pairing the 89 with the 90 would be a much closer fit than pairing the 89 with the 80, despite what the letter grades say.

[Zevox]

In theory, that's what the MMR is supposed to do. A lot of people don't understand the leagues very well, so they freak out when they get matched with somebody from a higher league who is actually very close to their skill level. For instance, the guys at the very top of Silver are actually going to be very close to the guys at the very bottom of Gold.


*thinks*

A similar situation would be letter grades on test scores. Somebody who scores an 80 gets a B, somebody who scores an 89 gets a B, and somebody who scores a 90 gets an A. The 80 and the 89 have the same letter on the test, but the 89 is a hell of a lot closer to the 90 than he is to the 80. So pairing the 89 with the 90 would be a much closer fit than pairing the 89 with the 80, despite what the letter grades say.
Yes, I understand the concept. The problem is with the way that, despite the league resetting and all, my previous ranking is influencing who I get paired up with currently, even though it's been two years (and an expansion) since I last played and I'm clearly not doing as well as I used to anymore.

(Also, I don't understand why they make the MMR an invisible value. The whole thing actually sounds very similar to the ranking system in Street Fighter x Tekken, where you have player points you gain or lose for each fight, and your point value determines your letter rank. But there I know both what my letter ranking and my player points are, so I have a better idea where I stand overall than I do here. And I didn't need to have the system explained to me by someone online to understand it.)

[Artanis]

Yes, I understand the concept. The problem is with the way that, despite the league resetting and all, my previous ranking is influencing who I get paired up with currently, even though it's been two years (and an expansion) since I last played and I'm clearly not doing as well as I used to anymore.

(Also, I don't understand why they make the MMR an invisible value. The whole thing actually sounds very similar to the ranking system in Street Fighter x Tekken, where you have player points you gain or lose for each fight, and your point value determines your letter rank. But there I know both what my letter ranking and my player points are, so I have a better idea where I stand overall than I do here. And I didn't need to have the system explained to me by someone online to understand it.)
Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood what you were saying there :smallredface:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

"I'm a fan of IdrA."
"Stupid Blizzard for making your army OP."
"You scouted my highly telegraphed cheese tactic? Clearly you must be cheating. Not just cheating, HACKING!"
"Reporting!"

Ah, the sounds of the fan-dumb at work.
Oh well, at least it isn't as toxic as LoL or DOTA2. If you ever want to see a toxic game community, picture 10 IdrA clones playing 5v5. Honestly, LoL and DOTA2 players make IdrA look like a boy scout.

Oh, right... I forgot the 'Minez OP' comment when it took out his warp prism.

Yea, there's a reason I don't play LoL or DotA... that's one of the major reasons.

Anyways, my Terraria updated, so I'll see you guys in a week or two

[ShadowFireLance]

Huh. Looks like I've missed this one.

Quick questions for people more knowledgeable than myself;

I have a friend who's going to be joining, and is dead set on Protoss. The only problem, is that He's more than a little hyperactive, and jumps around a lot.

Would you guys have any tips for getting him used to Protoss style, Or Should I just keep pushing Zerg?

[Kyeudo]

This part presents something of a contradiction there. If my present MMR is partially based on my performance two years ago, which to all appearances thus far does not reflect my ability in the present, and it's causing me to get paired with players two ranks above me, I think there's a problem for me here.

It would be terrible if the computer automatically assumed you'd gotten worse over the break. Imagine it decided to put you into Bronze even though you've been following the metagame by watching Day9 while you improved your micro playing League of Legends or C&C or something. Some poor unsuspecting Bronze players are going to get roflstomped by someone horribly out of their league.

So it just assumes you are in the same place until it sees evidence otherwise.

[Gandariel]

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't take into account stuff that happened two years and an expo ago. Maybe you were just winning a lot of games, or they were losing a lot!

Actually, i am top gold with very high win ratio (not trying to brag, i used to be plat and i'm getting back to it) and i still got paired with a bronze guy once.

@Hyperactive friend: Nah, let him be a protoss. PvP is a VERY active matchup, with lots of very fast games.
He'll love the 3gate blink allin: you get to use a lot of fast units like stalkers, attack his base in cool angles, and then have awesome battles where your victory relies on YOUR ability to blink back wounded stalkers.

Warp prism harass, DTs, phoenix harass, there are really a lot of things in which you can be hyperactive in the good way

Terran would be good too, making drops, stutterstepping bio balls, dodging storms, microing hellions against zerglings.

[Karoht]

This part presents something of a contradiction there. If my present MMR is partially based on my performance two years ago...Except that it isn't.
Remember that between WoL and HoTS the 'ladder' was effectively reset.
Also, it ranks you based on an average of your recent plays (I remember that Blizzard stated a range but the number of games and date range escapes me at the moment, go look it up on google), otherwise you would have to win an absurd number of games (or never lose) in order to overcome your early losses.

[Zevox]

It would be terrible if the computer automatically assumed you'd gotten worse over the break. Imagine it decided to put you into Bronze even though you've been following the metagame by watching Day9 while you improved your micro playing League of Legends or C&C or something. Some poor unsuspecting Bronze players are going to get roflstomped by someone horribly out of their league.

So it just assumes you are in the same place until it sees evidence otherwise.
Which would make sense if that influence ended after my placement matches did put me into bronze. But it doesn't appear to have.


I'm pretty sure that it doesn't take into account stuff that happened two years and an expo ago. Maybe you were just winning a lot of games, or they were losing a lot!
I can assure you I wasn't winning a lot of games. I've played exactly 8 so far (counting my placement matches), and won only 2 of those (one against someone else doing his placement matches, one against a bronze player). Maybe those gold players were losing a lot in their own league, but it would be very weird for me to get two of those in a row.


Except that it isn't.
Remember that between WoL and HoTS the 'ladder' was effectively reset.
Also, it ranks you based on an average of your recent plays (I remember that Blizzard stated a range but the number of games and date range escapes me at the moment, go look it up on google), otherwise you would have to win an absurd number of games (or never lose) in order to overcome your early losses.
Alright - though that contradicts what Kyuedo has been saying. Doesn't explain me getting paired with gold players when I'm in bronze though.

[Kyeudo]

though that contradicts what Kyuedo has been saying.

And you expected me to know what I'm talking about? There's your problem.

[Tectonic Robot]

And you expected me to know what I'm talking about? There's your problem.

Weeeell, if you don't know what you're talking about, you might not want to offer explanations, mate. ^^;;

[Zevox]

And you expected me to know what I'm talking about? There's your problem.
:smallannoyed: Yes. I figured you wouldn't be answering unless you were pretty certain you were correct. Or at least that if you weren't, you would say so.

[Kyeudo]

:smallannoyed: Yes. I figured you wouldn't be answering unless you were pretty certain you were correct. Or at least that if you weren't, you would say so.

Of course I was certain I was correct! Isn't everyone?

Honestly? I was telling you what I though the state of the game is. Most of my information about MMR was good the last time I read up on it, but I haven't really looked into the differences between WoL and HotS ladder.

[Spuddles]

HotS redid some of the league/MMR stuff. Leagues are far more indicative of skill level- I believe bronze is now bottom 12% of players while gold is like middle 30-some%.

If you're playing at off-times for your server, you'll be matched with people out of your league.

If you lose a lot of games, you'll start getting paired with people ranked lower than you- these gold players you're facing probably lost a bunch of games.

AFAIK, placement matches between expansions have little affect on each other. I think they probably use that data so GM players aren't getting stuck in bronze or something silly.

Also, if you haven't played a lot of recent games, the computer probably doesn't have a lot of data to work with. Remember, there's two aspects to the algorithm- finding a player that matches your skill, and finding you a player. The program prioritizes finding you an opponent over finding you a match, especially if it doesn't really know who to match you with.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh wow, I just looked at my last playthrough against an Easy AI... ye gods, I've got a long way to go.

Supply blocked nearly half the match, never did get all 24 SCV's in minerals, never expanded, average APM 13.

I know the theories, putting them into practice is somewhat more difficult. And at this point, I'd need a nuke to knock all the rust off.

[Zevox]

I know the theories, putting them into practice is somewhat more difficult.
Story of the entire game. So much multitasking, and somehow the games manage to go on for quite a while and yet still feel like everything is happening too fast. I always feel like I'm forgetting to do something and will suffer for it after the first couple of minutes. And I'm usually right. :smallfrown:

[Gandariel]

If it's of any help, you only need 16 workers in your mineral line :P

They say 24, but 16 is perfectly ok. (from 16 on adding more SCVs gives you little advantage, so it's not really worth it when you can make workers at your expos)

And seriously, Snheekey, try the build i wrote earlier. It's really easy to follow, and it gives you just a good start for your game.

[Karoht]

Alright - though that contradicts what Kyuedo has been saying. Doesn't explain me getting paired with gold players when I'm in bronze though.
Except that it doesn't.
The system is at heart a matchmaking system so you can play the game. It is going to occasionally let slide a gold or platinum player playing against a bronze or a silver, for sake of giving you an opponent so you can actually play the game. So sayeth the mighty Blizzard.
Seriously, I have friends in Platinum who occasionally get matched up with people in Bronze. It isn't nearly all that uncommon.

The theory from Blizzard's end is that you occasionally get to see what higher play looks like. If you don't learn from your losses that is one's own problem. Also, from time to time there are people in higher/lower rankings who shouldn't be. Throwing a variance at people from time to time is a built in check.

Again, people might want to be googling... nah, you know what, here's a link instead.
https://www.google.ca/#q=starcraft+2+how+is+mmr+calculated



I know the theories, putting them into practice is somewhat more difficult.In sports it's called Boxer Syndrome.
"The boxer always goes into the fight with a plan.
Then he gets hit."
It is alarmingly difficult to teach your brain to take what you know and put it into practice during a fast paced sport or a game. This is why emergency workers and military rely on training. Drill drill drill. It needs to be muscle memory. Other games with less 'spinning plates' or variables that need to be constantly managed, that muscle memory is easier. It is much harder to develop 'brain memory' where you just know what to do, even in a panic, even with a game entirely dependant on variables which need constant management.

But hey, weren't you ranked gold or platinum in WoL? You already know this stuff better than I do.

[Zevox]

Okay, I just played two more games, and came away very discouraged. It's pretty sad when you go into a match intending to practice blink Stalker harassment, get out the Stalkers and an Observer, but don't realize until you've got the Stalkers outside the opponent's base that you completely forgot to even build a Twilight Council, much less get blink. :smallsigh: Not to mention finding that by the time you've done this, your opponent has built a big ol' force of Immortals that proceeds to roflstomp you.

Just... ugh. I'm increasingly feeling like this game has just too much multitasking for me, too many things I need to remember to be doing as the game goes on. Especially at the increased pace that multiplayer plays at. Maybe if it was at normal speed, or even just fast, but on faster it feels like there's no way I can keep up with everything. :smallfrown:

[Karoht]

1-With practice, the multitasking won't feel so intimidating.

2-Hotkeys. Learn em, love em. If you don't like the configuration, customize. Make your life easier.

[Zevox]

1-With practice, the multitasking won't feel so intimidating.
Maybe. But do I want to do the amount of practice required for that? I'm already not having fun because I see how many horrible mistakes I'm making and feel like an idiot for them.


2-Hotkeys. Learn em, love em. If you don't like the configuration, customize. Make your life easier.
I already use them. First three for units (usually 1 for my main army, 2 for my Mothership Core, 3 for whatever else I may make), 4 for Nexi, 5 for Gateways, 6 and 7 for Robo and Stargates if I have them. That's one habit I didn't lose since last time I played, at least.

[Artanis]

WCS Europe Quarterfinals Finals underway (http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_europe)


Also: iNcontroL is awesome.

iNcontroL: "So, during that match, were you...I'm sorry, I know these are really stupid questions, but they pay me to ask stupid questions, so..." *holds microphone over for MC's response while looking ashamed.*

iNcontroL: "Yes, [Kaelaris]'s my son."
Spectator: "He's a Hobbit!"
iNcontroL: "NO-ONE INSULTS MY SON! Besides, he's not a Hobbit. ...He's a Leprechaun."

iNcontroL: "Wait, you guys started a BarCraft at 9 AM?"
BarCraft participant: "Yes."
iNcontroL: "That's not a BarCraft, that's called 'Alcoholism'."

[Spuddles]

Okay, I just played two more games, and came away very discouraged. It's pretty sad when you go into a match intending to practice blink Stalker harassment, get out the Stalkers and an Observer, but don't realize until you've got the Stalkers outside the opponent's base that you completely forgot to even build a Twilight Council, much less get blink. :smallsigh: Not to mention finding that by the time you've done this, your opponent has built a big ol' force of Immortals that proceeds to roflstomp you.

Just... ugh. I'm increasingly feeling like this game has just too much multitasking for me, too many things I need to remember to be doing as the game goes on. Especially at the increased pace that multiplayer plays at. Maybe if it was at normal speed, or even just fast, but on faster it feels like there's no way I can keep up with everything. :smallfrown:

You have poor macro. That's ok; we all do. You can play at masters to grandmasters level on NA server with only 80 APM. Sheth, for instance, has APM around 80 to 100, and he used to compete at the highest (non-korean) levels.

At your level, focus on making a base and defense it.

If you have good macro, you can afford to lose an army to micro mismanagement because you'll re-produce it in 40 seconds.

Blink stalker harass is, simply, beyond your capabilities at the moment. Focus on just making more stalkers than your opponent. That should get you up to platinum or diamond league. Bronze through gold is all about outproducing your opponent, beyond that, identifying what your opponent is doing becomes important. It's only at the highest levels of play where micro (forcefield placement, fungals, stutter step) matters.

Are there some things you can do to be better? Sure- dont park your army on creep while you build pylons in your base. Don't mismanage your rallies and have space giraffes wandering all over the place. But again, at your level (and my level), building workers, expanding, not getting supply blocked, constructing more production facilities, and teching up are all critical parts of the game. You don't even have to worry about scouting in bronze- just 6 rax reactor rally marines into the enemy base. They can have space giraffe, but chances are they're one base space giraffe and you'll just drown them under a wave of blue corpses.

If you don't want to play macro games, just look up build orders for timing wins- how to 4gate, dt rush, proxy stargate, 1base blink stalker, 2gate robo, proxy gateway, cannon rush. The teamliquid forums are a great place to start. They have the most efficient builds for going certain directions- when to drop pylons, when to get gas, and when to expand.

[Zevox]

Are there some things you can do to be better? Sure- dont park your army on creep while you build pylons in your base. Don't mismanage your rallies and have space giraffes wandering all over the place.
I don't do anything that dumb to begin with. (Though I don't know what unit you're nicknaming "space giraffes." :smallconfused: )


[Stuff about macro]
That's just the thing - as it stands, I can't get to the parts of the game I do like, because the parts I don't are prerequisites for getting even that far.

The last couple of days I've tried practicing openings and general macro using a build order tester in the arcade section. I've found that while I can certainly do much better than I was previously, I just don't like doing it. Base building and getting stuff in the first place is the boring part of the game for me, but it's the part I need to learn to do well in order to do the things I want to do, which is all the various ways you can engage your opponent in combat once you have your army built. Also, the amount of focus that I need to keep up with the game and the rate at which I make money after getting a second base is pretty hard to maintain for extended periods of time - and that's without any actual fighting going on to distract me.

I understand that competitive games are of course going to have some basic things you need to learn to be any good at them. Because the main multiplayer games I play are fighting games, I find myself mentally drawing a comparison to those: my current situation is sort of like if I couldn't enjoy practicing combos and setups in training mode, or learning the basic mechanics of the individual game, and only cared about actually doing mixups and landing hits. I don't think I'd really be able to have fun in those games if that were the case. And I know I haven't been having any fun the last few times I've played multiplayer Starcraft.

So at this point, I think I'm just not going to try to play multiplayer. I'll just stick with the campaigns instead. They're fun enough, and what skill I've picked up from trying to learn the multiplayer portion has at least made me able to handle hard difficulty there. It's just too bad that my favorite faction will be the last to get theirs released.


If you don't want to play macro games, just look up build orders for timing wins- how to 4gate, dt rush, proxy stargate, 1base blink stalker, 2gate robo, proxy gateway, cannon rush.
But I don't really want to do that, either. I'd honestly feel guilty beating my opponent with some kind of rush, because I don't want to kill my opponent's fun by beating him so early that it feels to him like he didn't have the chance to fight back. That's how I feel when something like that happens to me, after all.

[Spuddles]

I don't do anything that dumb to begin with. (Though I don't know what unit you're nicknaming "space giraffes." :smallconfused: )


That's just the thing - as it stands, I can't get to the parts of the game I do like, because the parts I don't are prerequisites for getting even that far.

The last couple of days I've tried practicing openings and general macro using a build order tester in the arcade section. I've found that while I can certainly do much better than I was previously, I just don't like doing it. Base building and getting stuff in the first place is the boring part of the game for me, but it's the part I need to learn to do well in order to do the things I want to do, which is all the various ways you can engage your opponent in combat once you have your army built. Also, the amount of focus that I need to keep up with the game and the rate at which I make money after getting a second base is pretty hard to maintain for extended periods of time - and that's without any actual fighting going on to distract me.

I understand that competitive games are of course going to have some basic things you need to learn to be any good at them. Because the main multiplayer games I play are fighting games, I find myself mentally drawing a comparison to those: my current situation is sort of like if I couldn't enjoy practicing combos and setups in training mode, or learning the basic mechanics of the individual game, and only cared about actually doing mixups and landing hits. I don't think I'd really be able to have fun in those games if that were the case. And I know I haven't been having any fun the last few times I've played multiplayer Starcraft.

So at this point, I think I'm just not going to try to play multiplayer. I'll just stick with the campaigns instead. They're fun enough, and what skill I've picked up from trying to learn the multiplayer portion has at least made me able to handle hard difficulty there. It's just too bad that my favorite faction will be the last to get theirs released.


But I don't really want to do that, either. I'd honestly feel guilty beating my opponent with some kind of rush, because I don't want to kill my opponent's fun by beating him so early that it feels to him like he didn't have the chance to fight back. That's how I feel when something like that happens to me, after all.

It doesn't sound like Starcraft and similar simcity RTSs are the sort of game for you.

You could always get good macro, gain a huge lead, then toy with your opponent. That's what I do.

[Mutant Sheep]

I don't do anything that dumb to begin with. (Though I don't know what unit you're nicknaming "space giraffes." :smallconfused: )

The last couple of days I've tried practicing openings and general macro using a build order tester in the arcade section. I've found that while I can certainly do much better than I was previously, I just don't like doing it. Base building and getting stuff in the first place is the boring part of the game for me, but it's the part I need to learn to do well in order to do the things I want to do, which is all the various ways you can engage your opponent in combat once you have your army built. Also, the amount of focus that I need to keep up with the game and the rate at which I make money after getting a second base is pretty hard to maintain for extended periods of time - and that's without any actual fighting going on to distract me.

So at this point, I think I'm just not going to try to play multiplayer. I'll just stick with the campaigns instead. They're fun enough, and what skill I've picked up from trying to learn the multiplayer portion has at least made me able to handle hard difficulty there. It's just too bad that my favorite faction will be the last to get theirs released.

But I don't really want to do that, either. I'd honestly feel guilty beating my opponent with some kind of rush, because I don't want to kill my opponent's fun by beating him so early that it feels to him like he didn't have the chance to fight back. That's how I feel when something like that happens to me, after all.I'm pretty sure he means Collosus. Dunno why they're giraffes, they don't have a neck.:smalltongue:

You just expressed my pain with ladder games far more eloquently than I. It's why I stick to custom games, mostly.:smallredface::smallyuk:

I would say "At least your faction got a sidequest in Wings", but thats just me wishing I could get HOTS.:smallbiggrin:

Oh my. Someone else feels this way. They feel shame when they do cheap things. I THOUGHT I WAS ALONE.:smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

It doesn't sound like Starcraft and similar simcity RTSs are the sort of game for you.

Yeah. If you consider macro boring and cheese cheating... then you shouldn't be playing a simulation of a commander in total war where both sides are trying their best to win.

[Zevox]

It doesn't sound like Starcraft and similar simcity RTSs are the sort of game for you.
"Simcity" RTSs :smallconfused: ?


You could always get good macro, gain a huge lead, then toy with your opponent. That's what I do.
If I could get good macro, I wouldn't have a problem here in the first place.


I'm pretty sure he means Collosus. Dunno why they're giraffes, they don't have a neck.:smalltongue:
:smallconfused: Huh. Yeah, can't say I understand why you'd call a Colossus a space giraffe. Don't see any similarities there.


I would say "At least your faction got a sidequest in Wings", but thats just me wishing I could get HOTS.:smallbiggrin:
Yeah, there is that, at least. I was certainly grateful for it. Too bad one of the missions was just defending until you die. Although at least it did come with a largely pre-built base.


Yeah. If you consider macro boring and cheese cheating... then you shouldn't be playing a simulation of a commander in total war where both sides are trying their best to win.
I wouldn't say that I consider cheese cheating. But I do find it no fun at all to play against, and I wouldn't want to do that to an opponent. I've run across things like that in other multiplayer games - I stayed away from using certain characters in Marvel vs Cacpom 3 because of it, and there's a particular deck type I won't use in Scrolls for the same reason.

[Spuddles]

During the beta, no one knew what the plural of "colossus" was. Day9 called them "coloxen", though I prefer LAGTV's "space giraffe". Easier for me to spell, too. Now casters mix up colossi and colossus, as using latin to pluralze words in english is stupid.

Simcity RTS- where you have to make a gazillion production facilities. Compare that to Myth, where there are no production facilities, or CoH or Warcaft3 where you have relatively few production buildings.

I highly suggest looking up build orders if you want to get better. That's part of macro. Your resistance to looking up build orders is tantamount to not looking at the combo moves in a fighting game and relying on button mashing. Not knowing how to 4gate is like not knowing how to checkmate in 4 moves. Not knowing 3gate robo is like, not knowing how to hadoken.

[Zevox]

Simcity RTS- where you have to make a gazillion production facilities. Compare that to Myth, where there are no production facilities, or CoH or Warcaft3 where you have relatively few production buildings.
Huh, okay then. I honestly haven't played any other RTS titles in a long time (not a PC gamer), so it's hard for me to think of differences between them. Haven't played those particular ones either. I think the main other RTS titles I have experience with (ignoring SC1) are Red Alert 2 and Age of Mythology, but it's been ages since I played either of them.


I highly suggest looking up build orders if you want to get better. That's part of macro. Your resistance to looking up build orders is tantamount to not looking at the combo moves in a fighting game and relying on button mashing. Not knowing how to 4gate is like not knowing how to checkmate in 4 moves. Not knowing 3gate robo is like, not knowing how to hadoken.
I'm not resistant to looking up build orders. I did that. That's what I was practicing in that build order tester I mentioned. That's what bored me, even when I was clearly getting better at it.

(Though I'd suggest your last analogy there is rather off. Knowing how to do a particular move in a fighting game is like knowing how to build a particular unit or structure in an RTS - complete basic level stuff, whose usefulness is entirely dependent on your knowledge of how to employ it.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, it's almost time for that new thread again, my humble suggestion:

Starcraft 2: 9 Hatch

I'd make a supply block joke, but that's more appropriate for thread 10...

[Artanis]

I'm going to go ahead and repost my earlier suggestion because it's kinda been lost in the mix since then:

StarCraft 2, Thread 9: I Have The HotS for Kerrigan

[Karoht]

Maybe. But do I want to do the amount of practice required for that? I'm already not having fun because I see how many horrible mistakes I'm making and feel like an idiot for them.Ask yourself this. What makes you want to be good at anything?

Skill focus games like this aren't for everyone. Not everyone is capable of taking the knowledge that they are doing something wrong without taking it personally. Some people have too strong an ego in order to improve or progress. Some aren't even able to acknowledge that the other player managed to outplay them. "It's the game's fault, stupid Blizzard for making X so good," or other such nonsense.

Now while you clearly aren't in any of the above categories, I do see you taking your mistakes perhaps a bit too seriously. Either way, you say you are going to move away from multiplayer for a while, which is probably the best. I do think you are taking this a bit too seriously, and at the same time, giving up too easily. But that is just my opinion.



I already use them. First three for units (usually 1 for my main army, 2 for my Mothership Core, 3 for whatever else I may make), 4 for Nexi, 5 for Gateways, 6 and 7 for Robo and Stargates if I have them. That's one habit I didn't lose since last time I played, at least.Those are groups. Not hotkeys.

[Zevox]

Ask yourself this. What makes you want to be good at anything?
Enjoying it. That's why I can spend hours at a time just in training mode for a fighting game - I honestly enjoy learning the things you need to learn to be good at those. (Well, mostly. Ridiculously tight link combos are another matter, but that's why I only play SF4 very casually.)

Here though, I'm not finding it to be the case. I like the game in theory, but when the multiplayer comes down to being so macro-focused, and I'm simply finding that I don't enjoy trying to improve at that, I end up not wanting to do it.


Those are groups. Not hotkeys.
Ah. So then hotkeys are simply things like hitting "e" to make a Probe, right? I was doing that too. Though granted I don't know all of them, but I certainly know the most important ones for Protoss - Probes, all basic and some advanced structures, all Gateway units, certain Robo/Stargate units, most spells on casters (still didn't have the ones for Mothership Core or Oracle down, since they're new to HotS).

[Artanis]

No more suggestions or votes for the next thread's title? :smallfrown:

[Karoht]

No more suggestions or votes for the next thread's title? :smallfrown:
Should be fine.

Man I hope there's a Barcraft here in Calgary before Blizzcon.

[Recaiden]

I'm going to go ahead and repost my earlier suggestion because it's kinda been lost in the mix since then:

StarCraft 2, Thread 9: I Have The HotS for Kerrigan

This is a terrible pun, but it's a good thread title. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif


During the beta, no one knew what the plural of "colossus" was. Day9 called them "coloxen", though I prefer LAGTV's "space giraffe". Easier for me to spell, too. Now casters mix up colossi and colossus, as using latin to pluralze words in english is stupid.

Collossi. But Space Giraffes is good. It's just because they're tall, no?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Starcraft 2: Thread 9: Pylo shall never be forgotten

[Kyeudo]

Starcraft 2, Thread 9: Uniden, no!

[The Glyphstone]

I'll throw a vote to I Have The HotS for Kerrigan.

[Tectonic Robot]

My vote goes towards "Pylo shall not be forgotten".

[Silverraptor]

StarCraft 2: Day 9

:smalltongue:

[Kyeudo]

StarCraft 2: Day 9

:smalltongue:

Yes. Perfect.

[Mutant Sheep]

Yeah, I'm going with Day 9 too.:smalltongue:

[Recaiden]

StarCraft 2: Day 9

:smalltongue:

I take back what I said. This needs to be the title.

[Silverraptor]

How come no one else thought of it?:smalltongue:

[Karoht]

StarCraft II: Day[9] has the HotS for Kerrigan

[Gandariel]

Changeling log, Day 9: They still think i'm a Zealot

[Artanis]

StarCraft II: Day[9] has the HotS for Kerrigan

I approve of this title :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

StarCraft 2: Day 9

:smalltongue:

I withdraw my earlier submission and instead cast my vote for this.

[The Glyphstone]

I approve of this title :smallbiggrin:

As do I, as do I.

[Gandariel]

Aw, i'll keep mine for another thread then :(

so, anyone has anything interesting to say about their current games? i haven't played a lot lately because university started and i don't really have that much time, but i've played some good PvPs: my usual build is either 3gate robo or 2base voidrays.

Oh, and have you seen the latest funday monday?

[Hiro Protagonest]

StarCraft 2: 9 Days Plotting.

[Gandariel]

Stuff happening! games! go watch! =) (http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_america)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

MMA vs JD... DAYUM!!!!!

No, seriously... DAYUM!!!

[Gandariel]

oh god, that second game!!!!!

When JaeDong managed to push out 5 Ultras i thought he was going to be pretty ok, since MMA had nothing to really deal with them.
Then JD did that AMAZING COOL POWER OMG move where he killed a rock tower trapping the enemy units , while the other Ultras attacked from the back....
And JD was ahead in supply at like 130/50.

Then he didn't attack for... three minutes, and supplies were even again. And MMA got maxxed out and ultimately killed him.

Kind of stupid ending for an amazing action packed game, but showcases how strong Terran is when turtling and how fast MULEs work in lategame.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

oh god, that second game!!!!!

When JaeDong managed to push out 5 Ultras i thought he was going to be pretty ok, since MMA had nothing to really deal with them.
Then JD did that AMAZING COOL POWER OMG move where he killed a rock tower trapping the enemy units , while the other Ultras attacked from the back....
And JD was ahead in supply at like 130/50.

Then he didn't attack for... three minutes, and supplies were even again. And MMA got maxxed out and ultimately killed him.

Kind of stupid ending for an amazing action packed game, but showcases how strong Terran is when turtling and how fast MULEs work in lategame.

Yea, that was the one I was talking about.

[Gandariel]

FINALS STARTING NOW!!!! (http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_america)

[Mutant Sheep]

Auuuugh those finals! WHY KEY WHYYYY.

So many things! Soulkey keeps being ahead, he has it won, and then goodbye victory the mothership core has warped time and your failure to exploit your situation has defeated you thrice, augh augh augh.

All the phoenixes, all the zealot-on-hatchery violence, and still Key kept the same build, only altering it to actually use the speedling boost he researched. Gaaaah. I COMPLAIN ABOUT YOU, ZERG REPRESENTATIVE. YOU ONLY BEAT MOST OF THE ENDLESS PROTOSS HORDE.:smalltongue:

[Tectonic Robot]

So, someone's going to make a new thread soon, right???

[ShadowFireLance]

So I finally made it to 5th Silver, which I'm surprised at. Guess it's just luck...:smallfrown:

[Spuddles]

This came up awhile ago, not sure if it was ever addressed, but it looks like Blizzard introduced a new MMR mechanic without telling anyone- MMR decay. Basically you lose MMR if you dont play games, which apparently has been really messing up matchmaking.

[Tectonic Robot]

Does anyone else find themselves rooting for the zerg in pro multiplayer games? They just feel like the underdog race... in the main story, I like them the least, but online, it's like, gooooo zerg!

[Gandariel]

That's just because all zergs are super greedy and the others HAVE to do some early harass and attacks while the zerg defends.

Zerg simply has no way of doing effective early attacks because of terran buildings and Forcefields+zealots

[Hiro Protagonest]

Basically, Terran and Protoss play StarCraft, Zerg play Company of Heroes.

[Karoht]

Terran-Proxy Rax, Proxy Fax, 2rax pressure.
Protoss-Cannon Rush, Proxy Pylon->Gateway, Proxy Pylon->Starport
Zerg-6 Pool, 8 Pool, Queens, Roach All In.

Most of which I'm sure isn't technically harrass and falls more into the cheese/all in category, of which I neither pay attention nor care what the categories are. Your Mileage May Vary, etc.

[Tectonic Robot]

Basically, Terran and Protoss play StarCraft, Zerg play Company of Heroes.

Is that good, or bad? What is Company of Heroes? When will someone make the next thread?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Is that good, or bad? What is Company of Heroes? When will someone make the next thread?

Depends on your style.

An RTS made by Relic Entertainment. Resources are gained through capturing territory, no worker/delivery system, defensive style is dependent on sending troops to wherever you see enemies, since territory nodes have sight ranges.

It is a mystery!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Basically, Terran and Protoss play StarCraft, Zerg play Company of Heroes.

Terran and Protoss play Starcraft. Zerg plays X-COM. On Classic.

[Silverraptor]

Basically, Terran and Protoss play StarCraft, Zerg play Company of Heroes.

I found this both highly amusing and true.:smallbiggrin:

And I guess I'll make the next thread. I just need a little time before I can sit down and do it

[Tectonic Robot]

Alright, lazy bones, I'll make the new thread. Which name got most votes, anyway?

[Kyeudo]

Alright, lazy bones, I'll make the new thread. Which name got most votes, anyway?

Day9 has the Hots for Kerrigan

[Tectonic Robot]

New thread is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318364)