difficult ghost questions (do they always hit touch/ adding misschances)

[Phaederkiel]

I intend to throw a ghost upon my players.


the setup: inside a spiraling labyrinth, the ghost waits. the Players are here to get some legitimisation to one characters (false) claim as a heir to an important family. The ghost is benevolent, even if he discerns the lies of the players.

But! he will challenge them to a fight. He will even ask them how hard they want the fight to be, and offer varying prizes.

If they choose very hard, he will use his evolved undead ability to cast a cloudkill (edit).

If they choose hard, he will charge them while beeing partially covered by the stone walls.

if they choose normal, he will just charge them.

(an easy option does not exist)

his stats (aboutish)

guwein sulatt,

5 level knight,
+2 ecl ghost
+2 ecl evolved undeadx2

ghost template (makes all hd d12)

9HD, (I made his +4 by varying templates count as Hitdice, i do not want them to one-hit him, and i want him to be able to cast stinking cloud)
64 HP

AC: 15 / 20 mit protection devotion, 50 % misschance.


str 18
dex 10
con -
Int 12
wis 12
Cha 20
mounted combat (knight)
ride by attack (knight)
spirited charge (human)
weapon focus: lance (lvl1)
protection devotion (+5 ac) (lvl3)

turn protection (+4)
Ghostly Grasp (can touch this!)
quick manifesting (manifests as a free action)


lance+3

charges with +15

deals 3d8 +27, 50 % misschance.

Telekinesis (Su): A ghost with this ability can use telekinesis as a standard action (caster level 12th or equal to the ghost's HD, whichever is higher). Each time she uses this power, she must wait 1d4 rounds before doing so again.

Horrific Appearance – A victim must make a Fortitude save or immediately take 1d4 points of Strength damage, 1d4 points of Dexterity damage, and 1d4 points of Constitution when looking at the Ghost. This brutal power will rack up the ability damage until target makes a save or look away. One of three powers used by a Drainer


fast healing 3

ability to cast cloudkill and cone of cold as an lvl 9 caster


what I need to know is: does he attack the touch AC with that lance?
and: how does the cover he gets from beeing inside the walls added to his ghost misschance?
and what EL would you think are the different modes of attacking?

[Mystify]

He will attack touch AC with the lance. If it was ghosttouch, it would lose the miss chance, but go against normal AC.
Cover is a +4 AC bonus, and doesn't affect miss chance.

He is a CR 9 monster, which is what the base charging will yield. Using cover may possibly bump it to a 12, due to favorable terrain, but its iffy. It will make it somewhat harder, but +4 AC on a ghost isn't the biggest factor, esp. since his base AC is abysmal. I don't even think it would add an extra CR to the issue.
However, he could charge in total cover, then reach out to attack and have normal cover. This will require them to ready actions to attack him when he does this, which could boost the CR.

The stinking cloud is a 9th level caster with a 3rd level spell. Once. Thats not that impressive. A +1 CR at most.

Also, he shouldn't have a strength score. Ghosts gain the incorporeal subtype with takes way your strength, and has you use dex for attacks instead. Ghosts are not well suited to being melee creatures, at least not like this.

[Phaederkiel]

oops, wrote down the wrong spell.

not stinking cloud. cloudkill.


about the strenght issue:

the ghost in the manual deals 1d8+3 with its sword, having a 16 strength.
thus i assume that they do indeed, damage for their strenght.

question is: is it touch? libris mortis seems to say yes.


the ghost is anyway using ride-by-attacks to dissapear in the walls after charging. the difference between normal and hard is that he either charges openly through the corridor or charges with only his lance sticking out.

I think i will rule that damaging the lance damages him, as it is part of his ectoplasmatic body at the time. But what kind of added misschances / Ac boost does this mode of attacking give him?

[Mystify]

oops, wrote down the wrong spell.

not stinking cloud. cloudkill.

Well, that depends on what level the party is. It will either be an amazingly powerful ability, a very deadly ability, or a somewhat dangerous ability.



about the strenght issue:

the ghost in the manual deals 1d8+3 with its sword, having a 16 strength.
thus i assume that they do indeed, damage for their strenght.

question is: is it touch? libris mortis seems to say yes.


The strength on ghosts has always been kinda ambigous. Ghost doesn't say you lose strength, but incorporeal does, and its all very confusing. I played a ghost once, it was all very confusing. I mainly used my special abilities and sidestepped the issue.



the ghost is anyway using ride-by-attacks to dissapear in the walls after charging. the difference between normal and hard is that he either charges openly through the corridor or charges with only his lance sticking out.

I think i will rule that damaging the lance damages him, as it is part of his ectoplasmatic body at the time. But what kind of added misschances / Ac boost does this mode of attacking give him?
If you look at the incorporeal subtype, it specifies the rules for attacking from within objects. Basically, they do have to leave the object to make the attack, and cane be attacked then, but they have cover. This is a +4 AC. His AC is poor to start, so its not going to be that huge of an edge, except it reduces them to readying actions to attack him. That fact is what will make it harder, not the AC boost.

[Phaederkiel]

The strength on ghosts has always been kinda ambigous. Ghost doesn't say you lose strength, but incorporeal does, and its all very confusing. I played a ghost once, it was all very confusing. I mainly used my special abilities and sidestepped the issue.



this is EXCACTLY why i have come here to ask :)
If anyone nows anything clear about this, it will be the playground.

[KillianHawkeye]

He will attack touch AC with the lance. If it was ghosttouch, it would lose the miss chance, but go against normal AC.

I think he is using Ghostly Grasp to attack with a real physical lance. In that case, it should go against regular AC like any other weapon attack. It may also cause some problems for the ghost when trying to pass through solid objects.

[Mystify]

I think he is using Ghostly Grasp to attack with a real physical lance. In that case, it should go against regular AC like any other weapon attack. It may also cause some problems for the ghost when trying to pass through solid objects.

If that is the case, then yes, it would be normal attacks, and he couldn't phase the object through walls and floors.

[HeadlessMermaid]

First of all, don't be alarmed, these things are indeed confusing, and not very well thought out.

Here's how it goes. If the ghost is manifested, it doesn't have a Str score Vs corporeal creatures. It uses Dex instead of Str for attack rolls, but not damage rolls.

It DOES have a Str Vs ethereal creatures though, and uses it normally for both attack and damage. (This is what the sample ghost's attack and damage is all about. Its weapon is only masterwork, not magical, so it can't even touch corporeal creatures with it.)

Now, the attack depends very much on the weapon:

1) If your ghost's lance is ghost equipment (it became ethereal along with the dearly departed), then it's an incorporeal attack. But to hit at all, it must be a magical weapon, and to hit without a 50% miss chance, it must have the Ghost Touch property.

Either way, this attack ignores natural armor, armor and shields. (But effects that specifically work against incorporeal touch attacks, such as Mage Armor and Shield, are not ignored.)

2) If your ghost's lance is a material item that the ghost uses with the Ghostly Grasp feat, then the attack suffers no miss chance (it doesn't matter if the weapon is not magical, since it's material), and does not ignore armor, natural armor and shield bonus to AC.

3) If your ghost's lance is a material item with the Ghost Touch property, then again it strikes corporeal foes without a miss chance, and does not ignore armor, natural armor and shield bonus to AC.

Note: The property's "more beneficial to the wielder" clause may be interpreted that the ghost can actually choose whether to count the attack as corporeal (targets normal AC without a miss chance) or incorporeal (touch attack, but 50% miss chance). That's more DM discretion though, and will rarely become an issue anyway.


However, in all of those cases, without a Str score, sneak attack, maneuvers etc, the damage will only be the weapon damage roll plus the weapon's enhancement bonus. Technically, you can't power attack at all, because it's a feat with Str 13+ as a prerequisite, which makes it currently unavailable.

In short, it may sound very cool to have a noble ghost dueling in melee, but a Knight (or fighter, barbarian, ranger etc) can't really do it. You need abilities that add to melee damage regardless of strength (and not even replacing strength, because you don't use it in the first place in order to replace it).

A martial adept (crusader seems to fit your theme, and it's a very reliable class), or maybe a rogue with a lot of sneak attack dice, would be much more viable.

You can of course handwave the fact that incorporeal creatures (with Str -) can't use the Power Attack feat. You're the DM, RAW is just a suggestion, you know the drill. But normally, ghosts as CR-appropriate encounters are a threat when they use their ghost powers, not melee.

I hope that helps. :)

[Mystify]

1) If your ghost's lance is ghost equipment (it became ethereal along with the dearly departed), then it's an incorporeal attack. But to hit at all, it must be a magical weapon, and to hit without a 50% miss chance, it must have the Ghost Touch property.

Either way, this attack ignores natural armor, armor and shields. (But effects that specifically work against incorporeal touch attacks, such as Mage Armor and Shield, are not ignored.)

2) If your ghost's lance is a material item that the ghost uses with the Ghostly Grasp feat, then the attack suffers no miss chance (it doesn't matter if the weapon is not magical, since it's material), and does not ignore armor, natural armor and shield bonus to AC.

3) If your ghost's lance is a material item with the Ghost Touch property, then it strikes corporeal foes without a miss chance, and disregards armor, natural armor and shield bonus to AC. (It counts as an incorporeal attack, because that's more beneficial to the wielder.)


I think you are right about the rest, but the ghost touch seems wrong. I don't think a ghost touch weapon ignores armor. Otherwise, it would be much better than the +4 brilliant energy enchantment at a +1. In about every way. If its acting as an incorporeal weapon, and hence ignoring the armour bonuses, it will have the miss chance. If it is acting as a corporeal weapon, it looses the miss chance, but has to deal with armor. It acts as whichever one is most beneficial to the wielder, but that does not mean it gets to take the best attributes of both at once.

[HeadlessMermaid]

I think you are right about the rest, but the ghost touch seems wrong. I don't think a ghost touch weapon ignores armor. Otherwise, it would be much better than the +4 brilliant energy enchantment at a +1. In about every way. If its acting as an incorporeal weapon, and hence ignoring the armour bonuses, it will have the miss chance. If it is acting as a corporeal weapon, it looses the miss chance, but has to deal with armor. It acts as whichever one is most beneficial to the wielder, but that does not mean it gets to take the best attributes of both at once.
Whoops, you are right.
I'll go edit the post, thanks. :smallsmile:

[Phaederkiel]

oof, thats complicated. so you want to say that the ghost in the manual uses his strength score only when hitting other ghosts?

and where is written that he doesn't have a strength? He has a strength score, and he likes it...

no really, I do not see anything where ghost do not have a strength score.
Exept the dwarf from manifest on the wizard page, but even he has str 11 (-).

I think I will rule it that he is fully corporeal (or at least his weapon is) exactly when he strikes, but not before or after. So he strikes against normal ac, and becomes Incorporeal against attacks directly afterwards again. Meaning he has his 50 % protection, and does not touch attack. and he deals his big charge dmg.

[Mystify]

oof, thats complicated. so you want to say that the ghost in the manual uses his strength score only when hitting other ghosts?

and where is written that he doesn't have a strength? He has a strength score, and he likes it...

no really, I do not see anything where ghost do not have a strength score.
Exept the dwarf from manifest on the wizard page, but even he has str 11 (-).

I think I will rule it that he is fully corporeal (or at least his weapon is) exactly when he strikes, but not before or after. So he strikes against normal ac, and becomes Incorporeal against attacks directly afterwards again. Meaning he has his 50 % protection, and does not touch attack. and he deals his big charge dmg.
Incorporeal subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype)

"An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see."

and under that ruling, people who ready attacks to hit him when he attacks(which they will be doing if he is charging in the wall) will not have to deal with the miss chance, so it would make him easier to hit.

[Phaederkiel]

If they hit that exact fraction of a second where he strikes.
Which i would do with a reflex save if he misses and with a reflex and a fortitude if he hits. DC, lets say 15.

Oh by golly, in that moment he would get the benefits of his full plate, would he not? would he lose the benefits of his CHA to Ac?

[HeadlessMermaid]

Yes, no incorporeality means no Cha to AC. It also means that the ghost is subject to gravity, falling damage, grappling, sundering and all kinds of physical attacks that don't make real sense for a ghost.

I'm not saying "don't do it", I'm just warning you that it gets complicated.

[Phaederkiel]

especially since he is only corporeal with the parts that stick out of the ground...

seems like i am going to have to wing it.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Ah, yes, right: most of all, no incorporeality means no passing through walls. I thought it was evident :smalltongue:

Here's my suggestion. Messing with the already messed up rules of manifesting ghosts is very tricky. If you want "big charge dmg", just invent a Magic Ghost Lance that allows the ghost to use its str score even when incorporeal. If it's ghost equipment, it won't end up as treasure for the party anyway, and you'll never have to worry about it again. How's that?

[Phaederkiel]

yes thats probably fine.

not that that lance could be as dangerous as the lance the centaur is already wearing, but that is ok.


most importantly the ghost is ultimately benevolent; making him an ally is probably much of the treasure they can get.


now I need some really nice items he can offer as prizes. Some Knightly stuff, probably.