[3.5] Acrobatic character help

[Kalmageddon]

So recently I got the idea of playing some kind of ninja-like character (but not necessarily with the Ninja class) with an emphasis on mobility (both in and outside combat) and odd tricks.

Some ideas that came to mind are taking the "Cloak Dance" feat, maybe the tactical feat "Elusive target" and later on taking the Thief-Acrobat prestige class.

I'd like to hear your recommendations about classes, feats, equipment, etc... Since the idea is still in a very early stage.

Only requirements, it should be able to fight in melee or at most with throwing weapons, no bow or crossbow or something more "ranged oriented".
The character will be level 10.

Thanks a lot in advance! :smallsmile:

[mikau013]

Rogues make great throwers. If you use acid flasks, alchemist fire or holy water.

You'd need quick draw to draw flasks quickly, you can use the 10th lvl bonus feat to pick up greater (or perfect if allowed) two-weapon fighting since you don't need to have the previous versions as it is a bonus feat, then grab rapid shot as well.
Boots of speed & ring of blinking (make all your attacks sneak attacks, with no miss chance).

Your biggest enemies would be sneak-attack immunes, but you can quick draw some wands which will allow you to sneak attack plants or undead or golems.

That will mean you got plenty of damage, so you can start focussing on other things.
Like getting your UMD skill up to be able to use plenty of wands and scrolls.

At level 10 the costs of consumables is pretty low, and if you play with wealth by level it should compensate.


Though of course this is only one build. You can make plenty. Just put up some paramaters, like for example how much dmg, what kind of actions you'd like to do / have, rest of the party, level of optimalization etc.

[Person_Man]

If you're willing to consider homebrew, I suggest my fixed Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186505).

If you're not, you should look at Swordsage 20, or a Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja build. If you're willing to take on a (very) confusing and poorly written class (or one of the homebrew fixes), you might also want to consider the Shadowcaster (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11610), who has a variety of shadow/ninja-ish mysteries (spells). The real gem is the low level Flicker mystery, which is a Standard Action to cast but then gives you Immediate action movement for lasts rounds per level. There's also a high level Binder PrC that lets you use Flicker.

For feats, Combat Acrobat (PHBII pg 76) lets you make a Balance check to negate being knocked Prone, and/or ignore up to 4 squares of difficult terrain. If you're really small, there are a bunch of things you can do with Confound the Big Folk (Races of the Wild) like make your enemies hit each other or make them Flat Footed.

[Kalmageddon]

Some nice ideas here, unfortunately my DM has banned Tome of Battle, so anything from that book is out... Sorry I should have mentioned it earlier!

[Psyren]

Don't forget skill tricks - you can pull of some cool visuals in combat with things like Back On Your Feet, Easy/Quick Escape, Shrouded Dance, Nimble Charge, and Wall Jumper. With the right ones, you can eschew Thief-Acrobat entirely, because it really doesn't give you much.

I personally recommend skipping TA and going Psychic Rogue instead, as well as the Psionic Trickster PrC (Magical Trickster adaptation, CSCo pg. 47.) This PrC not only progresses your manifesting, it also lets you spend 2 PP to repeat your skill tricks multiple times in an encounter. The right powers also allow you to do things like run up walls or across water.

[Tr011]

Some sort of mobile ninja... I'd consider mostly dipping useful classes:
Scout, Rogue, Factotum, Monk (ACF to get the feats you want), Swordsage/Warblade, Fighter (Drow ACF from DotU), maybe Ardent (+practised manifester), maybe Warshaper, maybe Barbarian 1 for Pounce, maybe Bear Warrior 1 to qualify for Warshaper (otherwise get Whirling Frenzy from UA). Oh and make sure to get Brawler (#349 ACF for Barbarian for IUS for free).
Optimize to get your skill checks high, get as much movement speed as you can get, try to get evasion (maybe improved evasion by Master Thrower from CW) and get some feat-combos. If you manage to fly, you can dive + hide afterwards. Make sure to get a bit sneak attack (it's pretty easy to get it high).
You need insane tumble (-20 for running or charging).
You need insane pick pocket (-20 for free action, thus while running or charging).
You need insane move silently (-20 for running or charging).
You need good UMD (to use all those "I can sneak XY for one round" items).
You need that amulet from ToM that gives you the Dark template (+10 speed, +skills, hide in plain sight).

[Crasical]

Cloak dance locks you down if you want to get it's benefits, so not really that mobile, which doesn't really make sense with your 'acrobatic' idea.

Although, a rogue with a longspear, cloak dance, and Combat Reflexes can use the 'total cover' action of Cloak Dance and then sneak attack anyone moving through his threatened area as an AoO.

[Kalmageddon]

Don't forget skill tricks - you can pull of some cool visuals in combat with things like Back On Your Feet, Easy/Quick Escape, Shrouded Dance, Nimble Charge, and Wall Jumper. With the right ones, you can eschew Thief-Acrobat entirely, because it really doesn't give you much.

Skill tricks? What are they? And where can I read about them? They sound like what I'm looking for... :smallsmile:



I personally recommend skipping TA and going Psychic Rogue instead, as well as the Psionic Trickster PrC (Magical Trickster adaptation, CSCo pg. 47.)

Again, forgive my ignorance but what does "CSCo" stands for?

Yes Cloak Dance locks you into place, but it's more on the side of "cool tricks" that involve bizarre movements, so I feel it's ok for what I have in mind. Nice idea using a Longspear, it could aslo double as a jumping pole of sorts if the DM allows it.

[Tr011]

Again, forgive my ignorance but what does "CSCo" stands for?

Complete Scoundrel :smallmad:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Complete Scoundrel :smallmad:

That's CScou. Or at least CSco.

Anyway, don't take Thief-Acrobat past one level. See if you can get Ninja Spy (Oriental Adventures, 3.0) approved.

Also, I have a bone to pick with that DM of yours if he banned Tome of Battle because of fluff or power. I can respect it if he doesn't want to learn a new system on top of DMing, but otherwise...

[Tr011]

Also, I have a bone to pick with that DM of yours if he banned Tome of Battle because of fluff or power. I can respect it if he doesn't want to learn a new system on top of DMing, but otherwise...

I don't think there's a good reason to ban ToB. You better ban Polymorph+Shapechange and allow full ToB+ToM, it would be more easy to learn those two books instead of the rules for Polymorph+Shapechange.
Btw even it is was a crappy shortcut for Complete Scoundrel it is the book where skill tricks are found in.

[Curmudgeon]

Rogues make great throwers. If you use acid flasks, alchemist fire or holy water.

You'd need quick draw to draw flasks quickly, you can use the 10th lvl bonus feat to pick up greater (or perfect if allowed) two-weapon fighting since you don't need to have the previous versions as it is a bonus feat
That's not true. There's no rule which says Rogue bonus feats are excepted from the normal prerequisite requirements.
Special Abilities

On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.

Feat
A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

[Thurbane]

If you can dip enough Binder (3rd with the Improved Binding feat, 5th without) to get Paimon, he's great for any mobility based melee type.

+4 untyped Dex bonus, +4 to Tumble, Uncanny Dodge, Whirlwind Attack (without the prereqs) and best of all Dance of Death (1 attack against every opponent you go past as a move action, 1/5 rounds).

[mikau013]

That's not true. There's no rule which says Rogue bonus feats are excepted from the normal prerequisite requirements.

Yes there is, the bonus feat rule text explains it.

[Thurbane]

Yes there is, the bonus feat rule text explains it.
Care to elaborate? The Bonus Feat text in the Monster Manual says this, but that's specifically for racial bonus feats AFAIK.

In the absence of other text, I'd have to agree with Curmudgeon...

Also, I have a bone to pick with that DM of yours if he banned Tome of Battle because of fluff or power. I can respect it if he doesn't want to learn a new system on top of DMing, but otherwise...
This forum really needs a "rolls-eyes" smiley. http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Kalmageddon]

That's CScou. Or at least CSco.

Anyway, don't take Thief-Acrobat past one level. See if you can get Ninja Spy (Oriental Adventures, 3.0) approved.

Also, I have a bone to pick with that DM of yours if he banned Tome of Battle because of fluff or power. I can respect it if he doesn't want to learn a new system on top of DMing, but otherwise...

That's exactly the reason, he doesn't have much of a D&D experience and I think it's for the best if he doesn't allow such a complicated ruleset to be put into play.
But let's not make this a discussion about that! :smallwink:

So, anyone could tell me about "Skill tricks"? Are they in CSco? It's the only "Complete" book I haven't read, so sorry if I ask... :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

So, anyone could tell me about "Skill tricks"? Are they in CSco? It's the only "Complete" book I haven't read, so sorry if I ask... :smalltongue:
The basic concept is you trade in 2 skill points for a skill trick. They are like feats (and have prereqs), but are generally less powerful. You can have a maximum of one per two character levels. Also, unless you take a PrC (or feat?) that says otherwise, they are limited to 1 use per encounter.

[mikau013]

Care to elaborate? The Bonus Feat text in the Monster Manual says this, but that's specifically for racial bonus feats AFAIK.

In the absence of other text, I'd have to agree with Curmudgeon...

Sure. But first, I can't find any mention of racial feats or racial bonus feats whatsoever in the MM. So I'm not sure what you mean by that part.
Oh and how detailed an explanation do you want? I'll try to keep it short, but if you want the longer one, then I can grab examples and such too.

It all comes down to, specifics vs general sources. And the leading source for bonus feats is the MM #301. They even directly mention that in the Errata file for the MM


Some creatures that have this feat lack the +1 base attack bonus prerequisite. Since bonus feats do not require the creature to fulfill any feat prerequisites (see page 301 in the Monster Manual), make the Weapon Finesse feat a bonus feat and add an additional feat (see the table below).

And there it specifies this:


Monsters must meet the prerequisites for feats, just as characters must. If your creature concept begs for a feat for which the creature does not qualify, consider altering the creature so that it qualifies
for the feat, or assign the feat as a bonus feat. (It is acceptable for a creature to have a bonus feat for which it does not meet the prerequisites.)

There we can see that you don't need to meet requirements for bonus feats.

[Thurbane]

Perhaps I am thinking RAI or RAMS as opposed to RAW - to me, it would seem logical that the Monster Monster section on bonus feats specifically refers to, well, bonus feats for monsters (the feats in the monster descriptions marked with a superscript B) - especially, as per your quote, it keeps making mention of "creatures".

I guess you could make the argument for it applying to ALL bonus feats, regardless of source (except those that specifically say you must still qualify, like Fighter bonus feats), but that wouldn't fly at my game. YMMV, of course.

[mikau013]

Perhaps I am thinking RAI or RAMS as opposed to RAW - to me, it would seem logical that the Monster Monster section on bonus feats specifically refers to, well, bonus feats for monsters (the feats in the monster descriptions marked with a superscript B) - especially, as per your quote, it keeps making mention of "creatures".

I guess you could make the argument for it applying to ALL bonus feats, regardless of source (except those that specifically say you must still qualify, like Fighter bonus feats), but that wouldn't fly at my game. YMMV, of course.

Well then I must point out, that player chars are creatures too :smallamused:.

And you know, there is the direct example the bonus feat granted to clerics in the phb gaining a superscript B in the MM.

[Curmudgeon]

Perhaps I am thinking RAI or RAMS as opposed to RAW - to me, it would seem logical that the Monster Monster section on bonus feats specifically refers to, well, bonus feats for monsters (the feats in the monster descriptions marked with a superscript B) - especially, as per your quote, it keeps making mention of "creatures".

I guess you could make the argument for it applying to ALL bonus feats, regardless of source ...
Wizards of the Coast has a rule which prevents that application.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. The Player's Handbook gives all the rules for playing the game (including the default rules for feats) and for using base classes, including base class bonus feats. The Monster Manual isn't the primary source for either of these. If you attempt to extend the rule in the Monster Manual (incorporated via errata file) to a base class feature, the Primary Sources Errata rule says you resolve any disagreements by treating the Player's Handbook as correct, and ignore other sources.

[Gotterdammerung]

one mundane way to get a lot of mileage out of a mobility based character, is to try for creative movement in combat. Don't just move to flank. Get a running start and run up an allies back then use him as a springboard to leap over an enemy into the flanking position.

If there is anything precarious to stand on while you fight, make sure to stand on it. Nothing is more dashing than a devil may care rake casually poised on a bannister slashing down at his enemies.

The point is, if you are going to invest a lot into jump tumble balance and skills like this, then use them for flair.

Thief acrobat gets some useful movement based bonuses.

Scout can be an interesting base class for this kind of character.

Dervish gets some movement related boosts.

Blade Dancer out of Oriental Adventures is probably one of the strongest PrC for boosting generic movement.

Lasher from sword and fist actually can be exciting for this kind of character. I played a swashbuckler rogue Lasher and had a blast swinging from the rafters. The best moment was when I stepped on a pit trap midcombat. I gave up my reflex save to lash out with my whip. I caught one of the beholders eyestalks. The beholder was not strong enough to arrest my fall. So I dragged him eyefirst into the pit. He wasn't small enough to fit so I was just dangling over the spikes with the beholder stoppering the hole like a cork.