TWF with a 2-Handed Weapon and an Unarmed Strike?

[Adamantrue]

I was hoping something could be clarified for me.

An Unarmed Strike is always considered a Light Weapon, but it also can be used with Power Attack. I also can't find a specific rule concerning whether an Unarmed Strike has to be a punch (though the Monk listing does mention how many other options that class has available).

I've heard people suggest that a Two-Handed Weapon & Armor Spikes are the only viable way to use TWF. If that's true (which I've never seen disputed, though I can see how it could be), would that make using a Two-Handed Weapon & Unarmed Strike more viable, since you can get x3 Power Attack returns (albiet all attacks would still start with a -2 penalty).

I'm asking because I'm working on a Samurai-style NPC for a my game (no, not the Class...good God no), and if it is an option I'd like to quickly alter the build before the game tonight.

[Urpriest]

TWF with a 2-hander and unarmed strike is indeed legal. Unarmed strikes do not have to be punches, and should in general have no mechanical connection to handedness anyway. Be aware that once you stray into MWF with a two-or-more-hander the situation becomes considerably more confusing.

[Darrin]

An Unarmed Strike is always considered a Light Weapon, but it also can be used with Power Attack. I also can't find a specific rule concerning whether an Unarmed Strike has to be a punch (though the Monk listing does mention how many other options that class has available).


It doesn't have to be a punch. PHB page 139:

"Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon"

... with some exceptions about being considered "armed" and triggering AoOs.

What you're really asking is, if both of my hands are occupied, can I still make an unarmed strike? This isn't entirely clear in the combat section. It's quite clear that the Monk can do this in the description of its class abilities, but there's no indication that this is possible for non-Monks. Your best bet here is to not get overly precise with RAW and just use common sense, i.e., even non-Monks can use unarmed strikes when their hands are full.



I've heard people suggest that a Two-Handed Weapon & Armor Spikes are the only viable way to use TWF.


It's not the only viable way, it's just the easiest without spending any feats. Actually, Guisarme + Spiked Gauntlet might work just as well, although there are some rules headaches over whether changing your grip or letting go with the spiked gauntlet is really RAW.



If that's true (which I've never seen disputed, though I can see how it could be), would that make using a Two-Handed Weapon & Unarmed Strike more viable, since you can get x3 Power Attack returns (albiet all attacks would still start with a -2 penalty).


Still costs a feat for IUS. If you're going to spend feats on damage multipliers, you get a better payout with Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, Shock Trooper, etc.



I'm asking because I'm working on a Samurai-style NPC for a my game (no, not the Class...good God no), and if it is an option I'd like to quickly alter the build before the game tonight.

Needs more Snap Kick.

[Adamantrue]

I'm thinking just splash a single level of Monk (probably Overwhelming Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack)) for the Feats & Save bonuses, and just ignore the Unarmored stuff & Flurry of Blows. One level isn't going to ruin the build.

Gonna avoid Snap Kick though. I'm already losing 3 Points of Attack Bonus (1 for the level in Monk, 2 for TWF). Any more, and I'm gonna lose any gains with the Power Attack.

[skycycle blues]

I'm thinking just splash a single level of Monk (probably Overwhelming Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack)) for the Feats & Save bonuses, and just ignore the Unarmored stuff & Flurry of Blows. One level isn't going to ruin the build.

Gonna avoid Snap Kick though. I'm already losing 3 Points of Attack Bonus (1 for the level in Monk, 2 for TWF). Any more, and I'm gonna lose any gains with the Power Attack.

You can grab Snap Kick instead of TWF. It would let you do the same thing that you're trying to do, except that you always choose to take it, even on a standard action attack, instead of only when you get your full attack in.

[Icestorm245]

TWF with a 2-hander and unarmed strike is indeed legal. Unarmed strikes do not have to be punches, and should in general have no mechanical connection to handedness anyway. Be aware that once you stray into MWF with a two-or-more-hander the situation becomes considerably more confusing.

So you could take Multiattack as a PC and attack with your weapon, head, and both your legs in a single round?

[Urpriest]

So you could take Multiattack as a PC and attack with your weapon, head, and both your legs in a single round?

Definitely not, Multiattack is for non-iterative natural weapons.

A more interesting question is whether you can Multiweapon Fight with your various limbs. You shouldn't be able to do so, but it's interesting to discuss why. Some people argue that Multiweapon Fighting is explicitly based on the number of hands, so even if you're fighting with your head, armor spikes, and a boot blade you're still limited by the number of hands you have. Other people think this is limit doesn't make sense, and that you just can't Multiweapon Fight with unarmed strikes because allowing it would allow normal people to do so, which nobody wants. My understanding is that Curmudgeon is in the latter camp.

[Chained Birds]

Aren't the prerequisites for Multi-Weapon that you need 3 or more hands?

So a monk would need an extra hand grafted to his body before he can argue using that feat.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, you can 2wf with greatsword and unarmed strike.

Or Greatsword and Spiked Gauntlet.
Or Greatsword and Gauntlet
Or Greatsword and Armor Spikes.

Or Spiked Shield (wielded in two hands) and Unarmed Strike / Spiked Gauntlet / Gauntlet / Armor Spikes.

[Urpriest]

Aren't the prerequisites for Multi-Weapon that you need 3 or more hands?

So a monk would need an extra hand grafted to his body before he can argue using that feat.

Like I said, that's one side of the argument. Remember, though, that a creature with multiple limbs can do MWF without the feat just like a normal creature can do TWF without the feat, albeit in both cases with large penalties. As such, it's a tad murkier where the handedness limit properly comes up, and why it should apply if the weapons wielded aren't hands. As I said, this is where Curmudgeon (again I may be misremembering his position, but others at least have argued this) steps in and argues that these problems arise because we're allowing MWF with things that aren't wielded in hands, and we need to stop doing that and keep MWF from being done with non-weapons.

[Keld Denar]

I've done a lot of looking into TWFing and MWFing. My reading of it, is that no matter how many weapons you can wield at a given time, you are limited to a number of sets of offhand attacks equal to (number of hands) -1. It doesn't matter if you are a Thri-Kreen with 4 arms and a mouthpick weapon or a monk with 1800 differend striking surfaces on his body, the number of offhands you get is dependant on your number of arms.

Think about it. You could wield 2 weapons, armor spikes, boot blades, knee blades, elbow blades, a weighted cloak, your unarmed strike, and if you had a natural bite, a mouthpick weapon. That's 12 weapons. If you only have 2 arms, you get to attack only with a couple of them. If you all of a sudden install an arm graft and take Multiweapon Fighting, would it make sense that you would go from making 2 sets of attacks to 13? From a balance and logic PoV, this doesn't make sense, and its not very clearly defined btw RAW.

On the other side, you don't see any monster stat blocks across all of the MMs that wields more weapons than it has arms. So my interpretation at least conforms to RAW (or the lack there of, I guess).

My interpretation is internally consistant, balanced, and conforms to the smidgen of RAW we have defining it. That leads me to believe that it is the most correct interpretation, but there could be others out there.

[Mystify]

You can think of it this way:
The number of hand s you have is indicative of how many things you can coordiante at once. A person has 2 hands, and can use them independantly to do different tasks. They have to put in training to do them both well, but as an everyday presence in your life, your mind learns to use 2 hands independently. If you have 4 hands, then you would learn how to do 4 things at once. It doesn't matter if you are using your hands to use the weapons, that is the level of multicoordination you are suited to.