[3.5] Ok, I'm stumped (What to play?)

[Medic!]

One of our newer DMs for a tabletop group is starting a quick campaign to eat up time until another DM is ready to start the big bruhaha.

I won the lotto on stat rolls - 17, 17, 17, 17, 11, 10
We're starting at 7th lvl, standard WBL with no % restriction.
He's allowing up to 2 traits, and 2 flaws "If you want them for to RP, but no feats in return."
Bloodlines are allowed, pending individual approval.
Gestalt will be put on the table "If you all die the first night and it looks like you need the power boost." (Just going gestalt from the get-go to save heartache, rerolls, and the time and energy of those involved was shot down)

Here's the problem:
1) He's not allowing any feats. The only exception is classes that gain bonus feats from a small list contained within the class's Bonus Feat blurb under class description. Proficiencies are obtainable only as class or racial features. (He says "Sorry, I know this makes a Fighter worthless.") Some feat pre-reqs (for PrCs, etc) will be waived or "worked around." Items that grant feats are allowed and fully functional "Except for getting the feat."

2) He's restricting our massive source library to what he has hard-copies of (he prefers to read a hard copy vs a PDF and "doesn't have time" to double click mouse clickers). I don't recall what all he actually has, but I know we have

PHB 1 and 2
MM 1, 2, 3
DMG
Fiend Folio
BoVD
BoED
Unearthed Arcana
Planar Handbook
Tome of Magic
Races of the Wild
Races of Stone
Libris Mortis
Complete Adventurer
Complete Divine (or Champion, not 100% sure)
Exemplers of Evil
Magic of Incarnum
Weapons of Legacy
Spell Compendium
Magic Item Compendium
Dragon Magic
Races of Destiny (I think)
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
A bunch of 3.0 stuff that we generally accept into play like Song and Silence, A&EG, Defenders of the Faith, Tome of Blood


I've tried to get him to allow other sources that the entire group has access to via PDF, but no-go. My original character concept involved a pixie, but MM races were then shot down as a whole.

One party member has already said he will be playing a paladin, another is leaning towards a TWF ranger. Sneak attack Fighter has been approved if anyone wishes to play it, ACFs are on the table as long as they are within the sources the DM has a hard-copy of.

I don't really want to play a character that's super involved build-wise because I don't expect the campaign to last a real long time and I hate spending sleepless nights pouring over character generation just to have the sheet tucked into a folder and forgotten three days later. This has turned me away from making a caster. (I'm that guy that has to have a full-description spell list printed out to go with my sheet, wierd, I know)

My fall-back build so far is a Paladin 2, Monk 4, Risen Martyr 1 with a Monk's Belt and 6k gp to play with. Bonus points for keeping the Risen Martyr and maximizing its benefits. I'm not married to this build or concept by any means. The only thing I know about the campaign itself is that we are to expect Dragons. Railroading is a distinct possibility as well.

I don't know why, and finding out why is impossible. Likewise the options to: Find a different DM/Don't play/Convince him of X are not plausible. It's bad, we all know it's bad, we grin and bear it.

So my Ultimate Challenge to the Playground: Within the confines of these guidelines, help me think up a PC that's (moderately) effective, fun to play, and a light investment of time/energy.

[nyarlathotep]

Play a wizard pick battlefield control spells. The fighter can't really pull of battlefield control as tripper builds are impossible without feats. This means it'll be your responsibility to keep badguys from moving where you don't want them to. Grease and black tentacles are clear winners.

[DrDeth]

Your party has a tank and a tanky-skill character that can’t quite do the trapfinding stuff.
(Risen martyr is a bit cheesy and you need feats. )

You then need a healer/buffer and a controller. For funsies how about a Favored Soul, some diety with a awesome weapon? Yes, I know that’s a caster, but the spell list is short.

If you think this will be a classic dungeon crawl you’ll need a real trapfinder, ifso then elven Scout with a longbow. That also provides the parties needed ranged attacks.

[Medic!]

My only real issue with playing a battlefield control caster/debuffer is that I just did that in this DM's last campaign. It went splendidly, and I'm not opposed to doing it again. I would kind of like a change of pace though.

As far as Favored Soul goes, we only have the source on PDF, so it's out, and another player is playing one for the big bruhaha campaign, so I really don't want to "ruin" it for him.

In the aforementioned big bruhaha campaign I'll be doing a spiked chain crusader 8/warblade 2.

Playing a ranged combatant has a certain appeal to me for this campaign (been dying to whip out a force bow). I'm slightly concerned about the lack of feats making it a poor choice, I would lean towards scout in this situation.

My biggest reason for looking at Risen Martyr again and again is the cool-idea-factor. A way to incorporate a decent ranged build with a risen martyr (wru bab or continued spellcasting?) would tickle my fancy, and let me run around like one of the characters from the 2nd Vampire Hunter D movie with a chorus behind me and lazers pewpewing everything in sight.

[gbprime]

Okay, with no feats, you want to play classes with all their mojo built right in. And you're wanting to avoid casters, even ones with small spell lists?

Your best bets are probably either Duskblade or Warlock (assuming Complete Arcane is available, I've never known a group not to have a copy...). Either one can function fine without feats or prestige classes, and the extra material in Dragon Magic (which is listed) is good fodder for the Warlock.

[Need_A_Life]

One of our newer DMsMakes me nervous when that has to be specified :smalltongue:


Here's the problem:
1) He's not allowing any feats. The only exception is classes that gain bonus feats from a small list contained within the class's Bonus Feat blurb under class description. Proficiencies are obtainable only as class or racial features. (He says "Sorry, I know this makes a Fighter worthless.") If you mean what you're saying then please inform him that he's severely changing the core mechanics of the system and not in a way that makes the game better or more balanced. Heck, if archivist/sorcerer/cleric/wizard wasn't my preference list in base classes (okay, followed up by monk :smallredface: ), it certainly would here.
You may know how some classes are always considered "feat-starved?" While people tend to put Wizards on that list, this particular "fix" hurts everyone else worse (except Sorcerers). Heck, clerics would now have ZERO armour proficiency and a permanent -4 to all attacks.

Tell me I'm getting this wrong, please.


My fall-back build so far is a Paladin 2, Monk 4, Risen Martyr 1Would you consider Binder (Tome of Magic)? You'll get a lot of flexibility and a lot of vestiges come with "free weapons, armour and proficiencies" in addition to various other abilities. IIRC you'd still be able to enter Risen Martyr with a Paladin/Binder. If the Binder is reflavoured to digging within your newfound semi-ghostliness, so much the better.
Also, remember that Risen Martyr has a level 0 (unlike every other class), so you could be Whatever7/Risen Martyr 0 for (almost) the same effect.


I don't know why, and finding out why is impossible. Likewise the options to: Find a different DM/Don't play/Convince him of X are not plausible. It's bad, we all know it's bad, we grin and bear it.Would you invite him to share his views on this board. If I've understood you correctly it's a... unique perspective on the game.

[DocWoollybear]

Just out of curiosity, why are you playing without feats? That seems odd...
Anyway, a caster seems like the way to go here, as they are less bothered by the loss of feats than mundane classes. I was going to suggest warlock, but you don't have access to complete arcane :smallsigh:. I guess you could make a cleric with the domain that gives trapfinding (I think it's Kobold domain?). That way you can handle most of the buffing and support and let the melee's go to town.

[ericgrau]

How about a ranged sneak attack fighter with a composite bow? Dip two levels of ranger for rapid shot. Win initiative, pile on sneak attacks. It'll be tough without precise shot but manageable I suppose. Maybe you can find a class with precise shot as a bonus feat. From there I might dip a level of wizard, sorcerer or rogue for a wand of grease and even more sneak attacks. Build requires str 17, dex 17, con 17 and a high cha or int doesn't hurt either. Blow 12k on boots of speed for haste if allowed; it's hands down the best DMG item you could get for triple full attack bonus damage. 1d8+3 x 3, often 1d8+3+Xd6 x 3 each with a high chance of hitting. Then consider a dex item, lesser bracers of archery and later str and con. Probably some +1 AC items (armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor) too when you can fit them.

[Z3ro]

Given those restrictions, I'd go with an Incarnum class, either Totemist or Incarnate. They need little in the ways of items, are great at a number of roles, and while they're hurt by no feats, they're certainly still playable. For extra fun you could go something like totemist4/barbarian2/totem rager 1. They also dont' need long spell lists, but still have a spell-caster feel if you desire.

[Psyren]

I actually advise against Incarnum - no feats limits it considerably. You get no Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, no Split/Double Chakra, no Bonus Essentia, no Share Soulmeld, and no melds from other classes unless you dip.

I also advise against any spontaneous casters. Metamagic is their bread and butter, and now you don't have any - save from items, which provide just as much benefit to prepared casters.

[kardar233]

As you've mentioned that Favoured Soul is in a PDF for you, you must have Complete Champion rather than Complete Divine. Thus, Totem Rager is a pretty good idea as you still can get Spirit Lion Totem.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You have FRCS. Make a Human from Thay, your human bonus feat is limited to the specific list of regional feats, including Tattoo Focus. Specialize in Conjuration and get the Abrupt Jaunt ACF in PH2, probably along with Enhanced Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants) in UA. Another option would be to keep Scribe Scroll and get the Domain Power ACF from CC at 5th for the Planning domain, to get Extend Spell. Be middle-age, you can put your two low stats in any of Str, Wis, and Cha. Go Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 2 starting out, if you get high enough level you can use Simulacrum to get Circle Magic participants, just keep them in a Portable Hole until you need them.

[dspeyer]

Have you considered Beguiler? You don't need to put a lot of effort into picking spells because they're picked. It generally has something worth doing and nicely avoids your teammates' toes.

[Wings of Peace]

Long term? Half-Elf using the dual subtype rules from Races of Destiny.
Half-Elf Paragon 1/Domain (Storm) Elven Generalist 1/Human Paragon 2. Your two feats will be Magical Training (Sorcerer) and Versatile Spellcaster.

Edit: I failed to read the bit about limited blurb lists. What does he have against feats anyways out of curiosity?

[DrDeth]

Edit: I failed to read the bit about limited blurb lists. What does he have against feats anyways out of curiosity?

I have two ideas:

1. He's going to hand them out.
OR

2. He has read they can be used to make munchkin PCs.

[Dragon Star]

2. He has read they can be used to make munchkin PCs.

in that case, he should ban core books too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I agree that Beguiler would be an excellent choice.

Another option would be Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) (UA) 5/ Master of Many Forms (CV). Get a Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp (MIC) and 1st level Pearls of Power (tuck them into the belt, one function of a belt is to hold other items), and prepare nothing but Rhino's Rush (SC). Be middle-aged still and put your low stats on Str and Dex.

[Randomguy]

I second warlock and binder, since both have some versatility and power that's basically feat independent. Warlock especially would be easy to manage, since binder needs to pick new vestiges every day. Also, I think you've got access to hellfire warlock, so a one level dip in binder for Naberius and you've got some strong ranged damage dealing right there.

Duskblade is also an option if you want to go melee, but you've already got two melee characters so there might be some overlap.

Beguiler and spellthief would both work as well to fill the "sneak" role, depending on whether you want more casting or more sneak attacking.

[Medic!]

He's calling it an "experiment" because he's curious. I keep telling him it's an awful idea, but yeah...

I kicked around Binder, it's still pretty close to the top of my list.

On a brighter note I finally got him to look at Tome of Battle tonight and he's considering postponing his game to pressure the other DM into starting the bruhaha, lol

One concession he's made is that we're allowed to take a feat if we "roleplay it REALLY heavy." The example he gave was if we will practice with a weapon for a couple hours a day we can have Weapon Focus.

[Amphetryon]

Binder all the way on that list. I'd be tempted to aim for Tenebrous Apostate with the DM work-around for feats, if possible.

[Coidzor]

He's calling it an "experiment" because he's curious. I keep telling him it's an awful idea, but yeah...

Direct him to the last time this was brought up here, which was about a week ago?

[Heatwizard]

Why is everyone so afraid of the gimmick? Kind of sounds like he just wants to do something quirky, and if it's just going to be attached to a short filler campaign I don't see why it'd be a big deal. I'd be more irritated with the 'PDFs aren't enough because I don't wanna read 'em' rule. ugh

If you have Dungeonscape kicking around, you could try to go Factotum/Chameleon, an amusing build. If you don't, I think Rogue can get in pretty painlessly, too.

[Garwain]

Are ACF considered as feats? If not, make a specialist focused conjurer with the rapid summoning variant. Prepare only summon monster spells in your slots. You won't have to worry about what spells to prepare, but you'll have the flexibility to choose whatever monster that suits the situation. Great for battlefield control as well.

Here's the build:
Focused Specialist Conjurer 5/Malconvoker 2 (CS p48)

Alternate Clas Variants:
- School Specialisation (PHB p57) + Focused Specialist (CM p34): Loose 3 schools (doesn't matter) but gain 2 conjuration spellslots/lvl
- Enhanced Summoning (UA p60): loose scribe scroll, gain Augment Summoning feat
- Rapid Summoning (UA p60), loose Familiar but gain summoning as standard action

Take some Elemental languages, and have fun with Small Elementals acting as your earthgliding scouts, trapmonkeys, magehands, torches, etc...

[Gwendol]

I suggest cleric. With those stats you'll have no trouble making your presence known. Also, they work well without feats.

You can easily work out an archer cleric if needed (see if you can get Zen Archery approved), and switch to melee without really losing out in power.

[Psyren]

Without feats, I can't recommend any theurges either (including Tenebrous Apostate), as you now have no early entry or practiced X. A single-classed prepared caster or psionic character seems the best bet to me.

[Big Fau]

Why is everyone so afraid of the gimmick? Kind of sounds like he just wants to do something quirky, and if it's just going to be attached to a short filler campaign I don't see why it'd be a big deal. I'd be more irritated with the 'PDFs aren't enough because I don't wanna read 'em' rule. ugh

Feats are an utterly vital aspect of the system. Removing them not only invalidates entire classes (the Fighter), it cripples access to PrCs. Never mind setting-focused feats like Dragonmarks, which would be flat-out impossible to utilize in a game such as the OP's.


I have two ideas:

1. He's going to hand them out.
OR

2. He has read they can be used to make munchkin PCs.

In the second case, he's wrong (only a handful of feats are broken enough to be considered campaign breakers, and he's using the word "munchkin" wrong; it means trying to optimize by outright cheating or ignoring the rules).

For the first case, I just wouldn't play in that campaign. I'm all for giving out bonus feats for good RP or storyline purposes, but doing so instead of allowing players to build their own characters is A: More work for the DM and B: Removing two entire aspects of character creation from the players' hands.

[Person_Man]

Since he's a new DM, you should probably avoid Tier 1-2 play, because it will most likely result in him freaking out and bringing down the ban hammer on other rules he's not comfortable with. Similarly, you should avoid Tier 4 or lower, as they rely more heavily on Feats, and multi-classing, because it sometimes smells like cheese even when it's not.

So Beguiler, Duskblade, Dread Necromancer, and Dragonfire Adept, and Wildshape Ranger for players who want easy, useful, and fun. Totemist, Incarnate, and Binder if you're willing to delve more deeply into difficult rule sets.