Gestalt characters, PrCs and saves

[SubtypeDumb]

I'm having some trouble deciding how to count my gestalt saves when I get a PrC and another base class at the same time.

For example, let's say I'm a Fighter/Rogue. Until level 6, my saves would be 5/5/2. Then I start getting levels in Barbarian(on the Fighter line) and levels in Assassin(Rogue line). So, would I consider myself as going to seventh level in a class with good Reflex and Fortitude? Or would I add 2/2/0 to my saves?

Now, let's say I'm a Ranger/Rogue. Until level 6, my saves are 5/5/2. Now I get 1 level in Assassin(in the rogue line) and 1 more in Ranger. According to the rules, I have to pick the class with the best progression when counting saves. Now it gets really tricky to me, because I don't know if that means I have to consider myself a 7th level Ranger for Reflex(since it has the high Reflex progression aswell), or if I'd add the 2 bonus the Assassin gets in the first level. That's what bothers me, it says "best progression", not "highest save bonuses", and Assassin and Ranger have the same progressions. :S

[Suddo]

You would gain at you 6th level 1 Assassin // 6 Ranger you'd gain +1 Fort, +2 Reflex, +1 Will. This is because the Assassin give +2 and the level of ranger is +1 to all, the difference from 5th to 6th. That's how I always play it. Also you may want to look into fractional BAB for calculating that.

[DeAnno]

Really the more you think about Gestalting with multiclassing and PRCs the less it makes sense, even with fractional saves. I would maybe, for sanity's sake, add up your BAB/saves as normal on each side and simply take the best total of each (and no moving things from side to side just to get more +2s or whatever).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Really the more you think about Gestalting with multiclassing and PRCs the less it makes sense, even with fractional saves. I would maybe, for sanity's sake, add up your BAB/saves as normal on each side and simply take the best total of each (and no moving things from side to side just to get more +2s or whatever).

There is no 'side' in gestalt though, it's usually just written that way to better understand when each level is gained in a given build. There are plenty of gestalt builds in which a given class would end up on both 'sides' of the progression.

You could use fractional progressions: Good saves are 1/2 level +2, so +1/2 per level gained with +2 the first time it was a good save. Poor saves are 1/3 level, so +1/3 per level gained. In the case of the level Assassin 1//Ranger 6, you have good Fort and Reflex and poor Will for that level, so you would gain +1/2 Fort, +1/2 Reflex, and +1/3 Will. The +2 at the first level of a class is only ever gained once per save.

Otherwise, you look at what the numbers increase by at each specific class level: Ranger 5 to Ranger 6 gets +1 Fort, +1 Reflex, +1 Will; Assassin 1 gets +2 Reflex; That character level would give you +1 Fort, +2 Reflex, and +1 Will.

[DeAnno]

The +2 at the first level of a class is only ever gained once per save.

The problem is there's nothing really to support that, so you could theoretically dub-step your classes around to get a ton of those +2s. OTOH if you only give out one +2 per save period you're at a disadvantage compared to non gestalt characters who often benefit from way more than 3 +2s over 20 levels.

It's really the fault of how classes handle saving throw progressions more than anything, and I only suggested using the "fiction" of gestalt sides to try to impose some order on it.

[Gotterdammerung]

It really isn't all that complicated. At each level combine your 2 choices. Where they overlap take the best. Where they don't overlap take both.

It doesn't have sides and it doesn't need sides as long as you compare your 2 choices at each level.

[Chronos]

The way I think of it is, for any given class feature or attribute (including each save separately), you can come up with some "path" through your levels to determine that feature. So for instance, let's say your first level is fighter//wizard, your second level is barbarian//cleric, and your third level is rogue//barbarian. For your BAB, you could consider yourself a fighter 1/barbarian 2, and hence get +3. For your Will save, you could consider yourself a wizard 1/cleric 1/rogue 1 (or wizard/cleric/barbarian; it'd be the same effect), and hence have a +4. For your skill points, you could consider yourself a fighter 1/barbarian 1/rogue 1, and hence have 20 + int*6 skill points (8 from fighter at first level, then 4 from barbarian, then 8 from rogue).

This also prevents cheese with spellcasting prestige classes, where some folks try to cover over a missing level of PrC casting progression with a single level of the base class on the other side. For instance, let's say that you have a prestige class that gains spellcasting at every level except 1st, and that you can enter after 10 levels of wizard. If your build is wizard 10/PrC 10 // X 10/wizard 1/X 9 , then at 20th level, you'd cast as a wizard 11/PrC 9, and still end up with a lost level of casting progression, just losing it at 12 instead of at 11. On the other hand, if you really want that PrC and really don't want to lose any casting, you could do wizard 20 // X 10/PrC 10 , and cast as a wizard 20.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The problem is there's nothing really to support that, so you could theoretically dub-step your classes around to get a ton of those +2s. OTOH if you only give out one +2 per save period you're at a disadvantage compared to non gestalt characters who often benefit from way more than 3 +2s over 20 levels.

It's really the fault of how classes handle saving throw progressions more than anything, and I only suggested using the "fiction" of gestalt sides to try to impose some order on it.

The fractional save rules in UA specifically say you only give out the +2 once per save, regardless of multiclassing. I don't see any problem with nobody having better base saves than a single-classed Monk or Favored Soul. Part of the drawback of multiclassing is that you're often taking an undesirable number of levels in a given class, i.e. five. If those levels that otherwise would have contributed nothing to your base saves are now giving you just as much of a bonus as any other level in that class, then you don't need extra +2's to catch back up.