Star Wars EU

[Litewarior]

I was just wondering, why is there so much hate for the expanded universe? I enjoy reading the books when I get the time, so I don't get why they are considered so bad.

[Seraph]

because the majority of the EU has below-average writing, incredibly inconsistent plotting, as well as blatant rivalries/vendettas between writers which results in characters getting killed off for petty reasons.

when its a franchise going for over 30 years with constant EU production, sturgeon's law hits it hard.

[Psyren]

It's also (incorrectly) invoked many times when people have a problem with the films. "Oh, they explained that plot hole in {insert novel}," for instance - which doesn't change the fact that the movie didn't explain it.

[NinjaStylerobot]

And most of the time you need to read around 3-7 novels to make them make sense.

[bloodtide]

Well, a lot of the EU stuff is bad.

But the worst is the outright bad stuff they do just to sell a book or whatever. If you want to make some Star Wars money, you need a book about a popular character, say Boba Fett. Then you give it a cool title 'the secret of Boba Fett'. Then you find a random author to write it. And this is where it gets really, really bad. As that random author is just payed to write 300 pages. And to fill up the pages, the author just writes whatever.

So what you get in the end is a very bad story. Suddenly Boba Fett is not a cool bounty hunter, nope he is a middle management worker at Star Corp. Then when the evil bounty hunter Kull kills his family as they got in the way of a target, he tracks down Kull and has him take him on as an apprentice. And once he knows everything Kull knows he kills him! And becomes Boba Fett! Hooray!

It's worse when they try to 'fill the gaps'. So Han and Boba know each other? Oh well see they once were both dock workers and fell for the same girl. Awww. In the end the girl dies and they both blame each other and 'hate' each other. And it only gets worse if they do something like....oh, guess what Boba Fett's real name is Lan Solo! Yup, he and Han are brothers!(They ruined Transformers and Doctor Who with this crap too).

It comes down to, a lot of fans don't like seeing their beloved character done badly. Worse is when you break the fantasy the fan made in his mind. I see Han and Boba as just rivals with no connection other then they met.

And lets not forget that too many stories just add dumb stuff as they can....oh Luke's pal is a floating sponge/brain, why, because they can as it's not an expensive movie.

[Mando Knight]

It's not quite that bad...

Usually.

But then sometimes they'll kill off a few of their better characters. Sometimes that's after the authors ruined the victim's characterization. Sometimes it's because they ruined someone else's characterization.

[Comrade]

I love the Extended Universe. Lends so much more history and colour to the Star Wars universe.

[[I don't actually read any of the books/comics/etc of the Extended Universe though.

I just **** around on Wookieepedia a lot when I get bored.

:v

[An Enemy Spy]

Well, a lot of the EU stuff is bad.

But the worst is the outright bad stuff they do just to sell a book or whatever. If you want to make some Star Wars money, you need a book about a popular character, say Boba Fett. Then you give it a cool title 'the secret of Boba Fett'. Then you find a random author to write it. And this is where it gets really, really bad. As that random author is just payed to write 300 pages. And to fill up the pages, the author just writes whatever.

So what you get in the end is a very bad story. Suddenly Boba Fett is not a cool bounty hunter, nope he is a middle management worker at Star Corp. Then when the evil bounty hunter Kull kills his family as they got in the way of a target, he tracks down Kull and has him take him on as an apprentice. And once he knows everything Kull knows he kills him! And becomes Boba Fett! Hooray!

It's worse when they try to 'fill the gaps'. So Han and Boba know each other? Oh well see they once were both dock workers and fell for the same girl. Awww. In the end the girl dies and they both blame each other and 'hate' each other. And it only gets worse if they do something like....oh, guess what Boba Fett's real name is Lan Solo! Yup, he and Han are brothers!(They ruined Transformers and Doctor Who with this crap too).

It comes down to, a lot of fans don't like seeing their beloved character done badly. Worse is when you break the fantasy the fan made in his mind. I see Han and Boba as just rivals with no connection other then they met.

And lets not forget that too many stories just add dumb stuff as they can....oh Luke's pal is a floating sponge/brain, why, because they can as it's not an expensive movie.

Is all that true, or did you just make that up? I've only read like two Star Wars books.

[Comrade]

Is all that true, or did you just make that up? I've only read like two Star Wars books.

Pretty sure the majority of that was not true :v

[Beowulf DW]

Personally, I've only had good experiences with the EU thus far.

The Fate of the Jedi series is great. The characters still have the qualities that made them popular to begin with, yet they also grow and adapt, while still staying true to the original material. Han Solo is still a scoundrel with a good heart (and a granddaughter). Luke has grown into a badass Jedi master who not only outfights multiple Sith Lords at once, but outsmarts them, too. Leia is still the feisty diplomat who can fight with the best of them (she's also an awesome grandmother).

In short, I love the EU.

[TheCountAlucard]

Yes, Sturgeon's Law is in full effect with the EU; still, whether it's better than the prequel trilogy is still something about which your mileage may vary.

[Kurgan]

The problem is that the EU is of mixed quality. Some of it is fantastic, some of it boils down to "Old Man Palpy has returned with a new doomsday device! What will we do?!"

Trying to remember, how many times did they pull the "X has a new super-weapon stunt! Oh no!" There was....the world devastators, the eclipse star destroyer, sun crusher, darksaber, didn't the Correlian Crisis involve one?

Really though, the best and worst thing about the EU is its size. With 30 years of it being churned out, there is something for most people, so while book X might not be to your taste, there is a chance book Y or book Z will be.

[Weezer]

The thing is that generally the writers that write this kind of 'franchise' novel are of middling talent at best. Those writers who stand out or have some form of talent seem more likely to write their own works, while those who write under the umbrella of an existing franchise tend to have less creativity or lack the ability to get something past an editor on their own merits. I think in many ways this explains the low quality of most EU books. That being said, there are a few authors who stand out in the EU, with Timothy Zahn being the one who jumps out in my eyes. Aside from him you have maybe Stackpole as the only other good author in the EU that I've come across.

[TheThan]

The problem is that the EU is of mixed quality. Some of it is fantastic, some of it boils down to "Old Man Palpy has returned with a new doomsday device! What will we do?!"

Trying to remember, how many times did they pull the "X has a new super-weapon stunt! Oh no!" There was....the world devastators, the eclipse star destroyer, sun crusher, darksaber, didn't the Correlian Crisis involve one?

Really though, the best and worst thing about the EU is its size. With 30 years of it being churned out, there is something for most people, so while book X might not be to your taste, there is a chance book Y or book Z will be.

yeah, center point station.

As with any long running and popular series written by multiple writers, there's going to be a huge variance in quality. Some are excellent reads, others are terrible. also, a lot of it comes down to personal taste, you may like something someone else HATES. So yeah, find a series (as almost all of it is set up in 3+ book series), and hopefully enjoy it. If you want some recommended books, I'm sure we (the playground) are happy to give you plenty recommendations.

[Mando Knight]

One of the best to start with is Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy.

[tensai_oni]

The biggest problem for me is not the writing. Many EU books have bad characterisation and plots, but there is something I dislike even more.

Too many expanded universe authors use their position to push an agenda. Like how the Empire wasn't really evil and was doing the right thing all along, or bad things for good reasons that become obvious in the book (only they don't because the book is badly written). Or how the Mandalorians are so awesome and better than the Jedi. Or how the Force* sucks and people who follow it are naive in general and the Dark Side (or some kind of mix between the Force and its Dark Side, a "balance") is so much better.

It's like bad fanfiction. And yes, I suggest you read books by Timothy Zahn because he is really skilled and unbiased. It helps that he was an established science fiction writer before he made anything Star Wars.

* Like Nerdorama said a while back in a different thread, there is no Light Side of the Force. There is the Force and the Dark Side.

[Grif]

Too many expanded universe authors use their position to push an agenda. Like how the Empire wasn't really evil and was doing the right thing all along, or bad things for good reasons that become obvious in the book (only they don't because the book is badly written). Or how the Mandalorians are so awesome and better than the Jedi. Or how the Force* sucks and people who follow it are naive in general and the Dark Side (or some kind of mix between the Force and its Dark Side, a "balance") is so much better.


This. This is the main reason why EU sucks. I find the writing generally to be acceptable quality, but when authors try to push bull like this into the books, then it just outrights ruins the rest of the story.

[Jayngfet]

It's because really, it's hard nailing the feel of star wars without going over the same thing again and again. There have been at least three deathstar prototype/spinoff/sequels and about a dozen weapons approaching the same level of power. Not only has Palpatine come back to life, but when he can't be there in person he has no less than a dozen secret death squads and between him and Vader over thirty secret apprentices that all have purple lightsabers/whips for blades/super awesome death armor of their own.

Not to mention after a certain point the flaws of EVERY author shine through. Traviss loves soldier types too much(to the point where even trained Jedi act like idiots to make Mandalorians look good), Zann writes villains that are more intelligent than any movie antagonist(Palleon's purpose for half the Thrawn Trilogy seems to note how Thrawn is so much more intelligent than Vader of the Emperor or how awesome Joruus is at jedi stuff), Bioware in general enjoys ignoring whatever anyone else decides and doing their own thing(It doesn't matter what you pick for either KOTOR games, whenever they bother to acknowledge KOTOR II even exists or that anything in it is Canon).


Occasionally Lucas steps in and either makes an Arbitrary judgement call, or else tells everyone else to stop messing around and make something less dumb.


The end result is this insane mess where people try to write about how random mooks squad no. 39980 was actually full of random badasses who had many great adventures, but somehow on the one day they get shown in person their gear malfunctioned/they were drunk/they were replaced with random migrant workers and they can't shoot from three feet away.

[Kurgan]

One of the best to start with is Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy.

Seconded.

I must say, my biggest problem with the EU is the fact that it just seems the Jedi get purged once every generation or two. I mean, we have the Kotor games, where the order is mostly destroyed, then 1,000 years before the first movie, the Jedi are put as risk of extinction again, then the Empire does their thing, then a hundred years later the new Empire does it again. The destruction of the order kind of loses its meaning to me when it is a regular thing.

Then there is the fact that they keep holding onto the same handful of characters. They are getting away from that with kotor, legacy, and throwing in new characters now and then, but still, don't Luke, Han and Leia deserve a nice, peaceful retirement?

I also dislike how most threats are at a galactic scale. That is one thing I really liked about early EU, it was a fragmented Empire versus a rising New Republic, so while each warlord was a threat to several sectors maybe, they stood little chance on their own of taking the whole pie. I also enjoyed with Zahn's Hand of Thrawn books the fact that they kept the scale small and also pointed out that half of the battle wasn't fighting outside forces, but maintaining peace within, keeping member planets from waging war with each other, and curbing piracy on the space lanes.

That is probably just me though, I like smaller scaled conflicts.

[Aotrs Commander]

I just finished reading the Thrawn trilogy again, and remembering why it's still arguably the best of all the EU (sadly, the EU seemed to peak rather too soon...)

Zhan, Stackpole and Allston are the best of the EU writers by a long margin (though TIE Fighter also ranks extremely highly, doubly so for not depicting them Empire as "not so bad after all...")

Most of the other novels - and even by the aforementioned latter two, after the NJO series began - are of mediocre to poor quality. A fair chunk of the middling period (before Zhan deliberately reigned it back it in Hand of Thrawn1) focussed far too much on the Force-users, making them nearly superweapons, and often dispropotionally important to the stories. (Kevin J Anderson, despite making an apparent effort to follow the RPG source material (which I will say, fair play to) was especially bad at this.)

The apparent well-feeling between the authors has also deterioriated somewhat, as Traviss' rabidly anti-Jedi, pro-Mandolorian stance didn't seem to win her any favours with some of the other writers (or, for that matter, a modest number of the fans...)

The direction the novels have taken since the NJO, and the introduction of the Prequel Era have also been divisive issues, and the added overall complexity -as well as some of the too-retconned backstory that bloodtide alluded to (which even Zhan had succumbed to on occasion), plus greater inconsistency, has not been as favourable to the overall EU as it might have been when it was smaller and much more internally consistent.



1And also had to hit the EU with the clue-by-four about Luke and Mara, which I had suspected from day one had been the eventual intention. How KJA missed that, I'll never know...

[Yora]

One of the best to start with is Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy.

Looking back at having read almost anything done in and before the 90s, the really good stuff can be reduced to Thrawn and X-Wing. And the new Knights of the Old Republic comics and the game.
Together, they easily make up over 90% of what's good about Star Wars (and the rest is mostly The Empire Strikes Back and the Tie Fighter game. :smallamused:).

[Closet_Skeleton]

The EU is great as long as you stick to the comics. The novels just keep pushing the movie characters and killing off or under using the next generation.

[KingofMadCows]

The problem with the EU is that there's no collaboration between the different writers. They're just each doing their own thing.

One writer would establish some really cool ideas and another writer would completely misrepresent those ideas somewhere else.

[hamishspence]

1And also had to hit the EU with the clue-by-four about Luke and Mara, which I had suspected from day one had been the eventual intention. How KJA missed that, I'll never know...

It might have been the case that he simply didn't feel he had the right to do that with another author's character.

It's worth noting that KJA didn't introduce any love interests for Luke- and when another author did (Children of the Jedi) he shot it down (Darksaber).

The EU has been through a lot over the past 30+ years. Maybe it should be divided into eras for assessment?

Early era- Marvel Star Wars, the Droids TV series, the Ewoks TV series, the Han Solo Adventures trilogy, the Lando Calrissian Adventures trilogy, Splinter of the Mind's Eye

Middle era- from Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy to his Hand of Thrawn duology

Late era- the prequel movies, novels set around that period, the Vong series, and the Legacy series

Very late era- the Fate of the Jedi series, etc.

[Litewarior]

One of the best to start with is Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy.

I am very aware of that, and it was where I started (found them at a Salvation army for $5 for 5 books, the other two were Shadow of the Empire and Truce at Bakura).

So from what I can tell, the biggest complaint is that the authors have very different views on topics, and the clashes stand out. Makes sense.

[Aotrs Commander]

It might have been the case that he simply didn't feel he had the right to do that with another author's character.

It's worth noting that KJA didn't introduce any love interests for Luke- and when another author did (Children of the Jedi) he shot it down (Darksaber).


Wasn't he the one that set Mara off with Lando, though? If not, then I'm doing him a disservice with half-remembered ramblings. (Not that JKA's books were, I thought anything of a step above the rest, it's simply that he wrote a few of them, and immediatly after Zahn, so I remembered him more.)



One thing I liked about Zahn and Stackpole was that they seemed to hit it off, and apparently collaborated a fair bit in the later books (and you could tell, by the more proficient way they wrote the characters each other had introduced.)

[hamishspence]

Wasn't he the one that set Mara off with Lando, though? If not, then I'm doing him a disservice with half-remembered ramblings.

He did- but he promptly shot that down in Darksaber:


"Aren't you with Lando Calrissian? I heard something about you two being a hot item?"

"Calrissian? You've got to be kidding!" Mara actually blushed and turned away to take another drink before she could cough on her quickly swallowed mouthful. "We're still good business partners in a very profitable operation at the spice mines of Kessel right now- but I think Calrissian was more interested in chasing me than winning me ... which is fine as far as I'm concerned."

[Aotrs Commander]

He did- but he promptly shot that down in Darksaber:

Well, fair enough then. (I've not read his books more than once- even though I've got 'em sitting on my shelf, so my memory's a little foggy . Actually, the only ones I've read repeatedly are Zahn and the various X-Wings... That says something, I think!)

[hamishspence]

I've read most of the Star Wars books repeatedly (either at home or at the library)- though there's a few I have read only once or twice, more due to lack of opportunity than disapproval of their quality.

The Zahn books still tend to take first place when it's time to take a book on holiday though.

[Cikomyr]

While it had flaws (and the ending is one massively rushed boring crapfest) the the Legacy comic book line was fun, and added new takes on many concepts you would usually take for granted in the SW universe.

[bloodtide]

Is all that true, or did you just make that up? I've only read like two Star Wars books.

I was not using 'real' SW EU 's in my examples :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

There are a few gems outside the Zahn/Stackpole/Allston trinity - I'm personally quite a fan of the Death Star novel. It's not Zahn-level literature, but it is an entire novel written for the sole purpose of explaining a single throwaway line in the original movie that could have just as easily been an editing mistake, and it remains readable.

[hamishspence]

Perry & Reaves do write well together (Medstar duology, Death Star).

They've written books seperately as well (Perry's Shadows of the Empire, Reaves's Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and his Coruscant Nights trilogy).

Matt Stover's books tend to be good- the clone wars novel Shatterpoint, which focuses on Mace Windu, the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, and the New Jedi Order novel Traitor.

James Luceno seems to write quite good ones as well- Labyrinth of Evil, Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, and Darth Plagueis, among others.

[WalkingTarget]

an entire novel written for the sole purpose of explaining a single throwaway line in the original movie that could have just as easily been an editing mistake

Which line, out of curiosity?

[The Glyphstone]

Which line, out of curiosity?

The bit with the main cannon gunner when Yavin 4 is about to get blasted. He says "Standing by," then they tell him to fire. They tell him again, and he stalls by saying "Standing by" again like he hadn't heard the fire order properly. Then the death star explodes.

[Beowulf DW]

The bit with the main cannon gunner when Yavin 4 is about to get blasted. He says "Standing by," then they tell him to fire. They tell him again, and he stalls by saying "Standing by" again like he hadn't heard the fire order properly. Then the death star explodes.

Does a decent job of explaining that one fatal design flaw, too.

[hamishspence]

There's lots of little moments which it does. The blast doors suddenly closing at a critical moment in the hangar bay- the work of a Rebel sympathiser. Or Han and Chewie getting away from being pursued- one of the soldiers chose to lead them the other way.

Or Daala's lack of military skill in the later novels- in this one, she suffered brain damage.

It can be interesting to see scenes from a different point of view- Vader's use of Force Choke on Motti, from Motti's point of view. Or Vader pursuing Luke down the trench- realizing that "The Force is strong with this one".

[NinjaStylerobot]

Is there an explanation on why a stormtrooper bumped his head too?

Seriously, not everything needs an explanation.

It was an exaust port that nobody knew about (except on secret plans), that was protected by turrents and tie fighters and was very hard to hit even with targeting systems.

It does not need more explanation.

It just comes off as "We need to explain this BS FAST"

[hamishspence]

Is there an explanation on why a stormtrooper bumped his head too?

I'm told George Lucas included a scene of Jango bumping his head in Slave One during Episode II for precisely this reason- Jango being the progenitor of the clones, and many of the clones going on to become stormtroopers.

This may be wild speculation though.

[Gnoman]

turrents

This is not a word. This word does not contain an N.

More on-topic, what is explained is how such a glaring flaw could be missed, not why it was on the plans in the first place.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Personally, I've only had good experiences with the EU thus far.

The Fate of the Jedi series is great. The characters still have the qualities that made them popular to begin with, yet they also grow and adapt, while still staying true to the original material. Han Solo is still a scoundrel with a good heart (and a granddaughter). Luke has grown into a badass Jedi master who not only outfights multiple Sith Lords at once, but outsmarts them, too. Leia is still the feisty diplomat who can fight with the best of them (she's also an awesome grandmother).

In short, I love the EU.

Doesn't that series also have all the Jedi contracting some kind of "Force disease" that makes them go nuts?

[hamishspence]

Not all, just a few, most of whom spent time at the secret Jedi base in the Maw black hole cluster, during the war with the Vong. And they were children at the time.

[Mando Knight]

And then explains it as the influence of some kind of extradimensional being that was trapped within the Maw cluster. (Honestly, that cluster had to be there to do something. An astronomical anomaly of that magnitude isn't just put there without a reason... in-universe-wise, that is.)

[NinjaStylerobot]

I'm told George Lucas included a scene of Jango bumping his head in Slave One during Episode II for precisely this reason- Jango being the progenitor of the clones, and many of the clones going on to become stormtroopers.

This may be wild speculation though.

So all the Stormtroopers band thier heads against doors in his memory?:smallconfused:

Anyway Clone Troopers make little sense for many reasons, shouldn't have been there at all yadda yadda yadda.



More on-topic, what is explained is how such a glaring flaw could be missed, not why it was on the plans in the first place.

Im saying it doesn't need anymore explanation.

Oh and Turrents. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

So all the Stormtroopers band thier heads against doors in his memory?:smallconfused:

No- it's a hint that Jango is slightly klutzy- and that this is a genetic trait that got passed on to his clones.

At least, so went the theory.

[NinjaStylerobot]

*Begins to bang head against desk*

THIS is a big part of why I hate the EU. You can't JUST leave a mistake alone can't you? You have to bring more and more attention to it! Forcing me to nitpick even more, followed by more patches followed by more picking until the whole thing collapses under its own weight! :smallmad:

[Reverent-One]

*Begins to bang head against desk*

THIS is a big part of why I hate the EU. You can't JUST leave a mistake alone can't you? You have to bring more and more attention to it! Forcing me to nitpick even more, followed by more patches followed by more picking until the whole thing collapses under its own weight! :smallmad:

Given that hamishspence was talking about George Lucas, I have to ask, when did he become part of the EU?

[hamishspence]

Some fixes are better than others.

Jedi Academy trilogy fixed Han's "ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs" remark, with the Kessel Run being more dangerous the shorter it is (due to flying very close to a black hole cluster).

The Han Solo trilogy leaves open the possibility that Solo's distance gauge may have malfunctioned slightly.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Sorry I was addressing Lucas.

REALY sorry. I respect your encyclopedic level of SW Knowledge.

[Zevox]

Doesn't that series also have all the Jedi contracting some kind of "Force disease" that makes them go nuts?
It actually turns out not to be a disease at all, but the mind-controlling influence of a frankly Lovecraftian dark side entity. Who is one of the most boring villains the series has yet produced.

I've kept up with the Fate of the Jedi books, and there are some good parts - Luke and Ben's travels together and father/son bonding, for instance - but yeah, the overall plot does not impress me at all.
Zevox

[hamishspence]

I suppose there could be perspectives that "Only the first three movies are core- the prequels are EU"

With George Lucas being "just another EU writer" once he'd finished the first three movies.

[Reverent-One]

At which point, they're just using EU to refer to "anything Star Wars related that I don't like".

[NinjaStylerobot]

Well Lucas IS the biggest flaw in any movie he makes. Occasionally he spews out something decent but he needs somebody to control him.

And I meant that Lucas intentionally added the sound effect to the bump, instead of just hoping nobody notices (Or even perhaps edit it out with CG. How about that Lucas? Wouldn't THAT be a great thing to fix?)

But eh, I kno you both Like the prequels. Personally I do have a sense of nostalgia to them but as a adult I feel played. Its just a movie where somebody dangles keys in front of my face as a kid.

[Beowulf DW]

It actually turns out not to be a disease at all, but the mind-controlling influence of a frankly Lovecraftian dark side entity. Who is one of the most boring villains the series has yet produced.

I've kept up with the Fate of the Jedi books, and there are some good parts - Luke and Ben's travels together and father/son bonding, for instance - but yeah, the overall plot does not impress me at all.
Zevox

To be honest, I feel that she's one of the most disturbing villains in the Stars Wars universe. Able to reach across vast distances to affect the minds of others...Able to move around black holes with the force...Took a Jedi Grandmaster, a Jedi Knight, a Sith Highlord, several Sith Lords, a Sith Saber (equivalent to Knight) and a Sith Tyro (apprentices) all working together to defeat her at her full power. Then she got away, and everyone's spent the last several novels desperately trying to kill her, each time only managing to weaken her, and she's still able to kill the Grandlord of the Sith in single combat.

Oh, and did I mention that Centerpoint Station, Sinkhole Station and the Maw Cluster of blackholes were all designed for the single purpose of keeping her confined to that one planet?

[Zevox]

To be honest, I feel that she's one of the most disturbing villains in the Stars Wars universe. Able to reach across vast distances to affect the minds of others...Able to move around black holes with the force...Took a Jedi Grandmaster, a Jedi Knight, a Sith Highlord, several Sith Lords, a Sith Saber (equivalent to Knight) and a Sith Tyro (apprentices) all working together to defeat her at her full power. Then she got away, and everyone's spent the last several novels desperately trying to kill her, each time only managing to weaken her, and she's still able to kill the Grandlord of the Sith in single combat.

Oh, and did I mention that Centerpoint Station, Sinkhole Station and the Maw Cluster of blackholes were all designed for the single purpose of keeping her confined to that one planet?
That's not disturbing, it's just power creep. The writers are just using a super-powered force entity instead of a super-weapon this time.
Zevox

[Reverent-One]

I'm so used to not caring about spoilers or seeing spoiler boxes for formatting reasons that I'm almost instinctively clicking on those about Fate of the Jedi, but I'm still reading that (once they come out in paperback, and I'm probably even behind there), so I keep freaking out each time. Thanks guys. :smalltongue:

[Karoht]

I was just wondering, why is there so much hate for the expanded universe? I enjoy reading the books when I get the time, so I don't get why they are considered so bad.
Penny Arcade did a comic that explains this better.

My issue comes with the prevelance of Jedi everywhere post order 66, most if not all of which are Mary Sue/Harry Tru characters. It's worse with Sith however.

Then there is the logic of Sith naming conventions and how people seem to react towards Sith. Naming conventions of almost all the characters are pretty bad, but Sith take the cake. I'll do an example for you.

Councilor Couscous: But how can I be sure you are trustworthy?
Darth Eatsbabies: I swear on the name of my dead master.
~5 minutes later~
Councilor Couscous: What the? Missing baby? Who could have done this?
Darth Eatsbabies: It was I! I ate him.
Councilor Couscous: But you swore on the name of your dead master!
Darth Eatsbabies: My master's name was Lord Darth Liesallthetime. Which I told you, and it was written on my reference sheet. You fool! Bwaaaahahahahaa!
~Lightsaber noises, one dead Councilor later...~

All the betrayals tend to be from characters who you could tell were going to turn. You could see it from space.

The only EU stuff I enjoyed was the X-Wing series, but Corran Horn really struck me as a Marty Stu in most instances, but still made for a moderately entertaining read. I, Jedi on the other hand...

[Velaryon]

I think the EU often gets judged unfairly. There definitely is a lot of garbage in there, some of which is as bad as the worst moments of the prequel trilogy, but some of it is pretty good stuff. Timothy Zahn has been mentioned quite a few times already, as has Michael Stackpole and Aaron Allston (who's brilliant when he's on his game and pretty mediocre when he's not). I would add that the Han Solo trilogy and the much earlier Han Solo Adventures trilogy were both very good as well.

The early EU novels suffered heavily from inconsistent writing and the "superweapon of the week" syndrome, that's true. A lot of books like Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, The Crystal Star, and especially KJA's Jedi Academy trilogy get a lot of hate, much of it well-deserved. Frankly I think the Dark Empire comics are the worst of that era, combining the perfect storm of ridiculous superweapons, even more ridiculous Force powers, and the beginning of an awful trend in the EU - not letting movie characters stay dead.

Another point that I'm surprised I haven't seen brought up yet is that too many of the novels bring unnecessary backstories to just about every minor character you see on the screen for five seconds in the original trilogy (and maybe the prequels as well, I haven't read many of those books). Most of the aliens in the cantina scene and nearly all of the bounty hunters in Empire Strikes Back have histories that tie them to Han Solo somehow, because why the heck not?



The biggest problem for me is not the writing. Many EU books have bad characterisation and plots, but there is something I dislike even more.

Too many expanded universe authors use their position to push an agenda. Like how the Empire wasn't really evil and was doing the right thing all along, or bad things for good reasons that become obvious in the book (only they don't because the book is badly written). Or how the Mandalorians are so awesome and better than the Jedi. Or how the Force* sucks and people who follow it are naive in general and the Dark Side (or some kind of mix between the Force and its Dark Side, a "balance") is so much better.

It's like bad fanfiction. And yes, I suggest you read books by Timothy Zahn because he is really skilled and unbiased. It helps that he was an established science fiction writer before he made anything Star Wars.

* Like Nerdorama said a while back in a different thread, there is no Light Side of the Force. There is the Force and the Dark Side.

This is also a problem. Everything Karen Traviss wrote bashes on the Jedi and glorifies the Mandalorians or the clones, usually through misrepresenting characters, distorting facts or outright retconning other authors and even the movies if I'm not mistaken, all because of some irrational hatred she seems to have for a sect of fictional magic monks.

Although Traviss is the worst offender in this department, she's not the only one. A lot of the New Jedi Order books put about some nonsense about how there isn't any Dark Side to the Force, and it's the intentions of the user that matter. This directly contradicts the movies, and I think it was eventually refuted in-universe, but for awhile it was becoming commonly accepted among some of the fan base.

And of course, as mentioned above there's the persistent misunderstanding of the nature of the Force, dividing it into the Dark Side and a nonexistent Light Side, thus creating the false notion that "bringing balance to the Force" involves killing off all the Light Side users to balance the numbers on each side.



The EU is great as long as you stick to the comics. The novels just keep pushing the movie characters and killing off or under using the next generation.

I'm surprised to see you say this, as my experience runs contrary to this. While I admit many of the novels are terrible, I have never read a Star Wars comic that was any good. Can you point me in the direction of some, if they truly exist?

[Beowulf DW]

This is also a problem. Everything Karen Traviss wrote bashes on the Jedi and glorifies the Mandalorians or the clones, usually through misrepresenting characters, distorting facts or outright retconning other authors and even the movies if I'm not mistaken, all because of some irrational hatred she seems to have for a sect of fictional magic monks.

Although Traviss is the worst offender in this department, she's not the only one. A lot of the New Jedi Order books put about some nonsense about how there isn't any Dark Side to the Force, and it's the intentions of the user that matter. This directly contradicts the movies, and I think it was eventually refuted in-universe, but for awhile it was becoming commonly accepted among some of the fan base.

And of course, as mentioned above there's the persistent misunderstanding of the nature of the Force, dividing it into the Dark Side and a nonexistent Light Side, thus creating the false notion that "bringing balance to the Force" involves killing off all the Light Side users to balance the numbers on each side.

The authors of the on-going Fate of the Jedi series specifically pointed out that they didn't have any Boba Fett fan-girls working with them. They have gone out of their way to portray the Mandalorians as brutal, cruel, and inferior to the Jedi in a fight.

The nature of the Force thing was written off as Jacen Solo and a minority of Jedi making dangerous assumptions.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Another point that I'm surprised I haven't seen brought up yet is that too many of the novels bring unnecessary backstories to just about every minor character you see on the screen for five seconds in the original trilogy (and maybe the prequels as well, I haven't read many of those books). Most of the aliens in the cantina scene and nearly all of the bounty hunters in Empire Strikes Back have histories that tie them to Han Solo somehow, because why the heck not?

Most of those are from the short stories collected in Tales from Jabba's Palace/Tales of the Bounty Hunters/Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina where it was kind of the point. They don't just randomly pepper them around.


I'm surprised to see you say this, as my experience runs contrary to this. While I admit many of the novels are terrible, I have never read a Star Wars comic that was any good. Can you point me in the direction of some, if they truly exist?

Pretty much any of the recent comic series (clone wars onwards) are considered better than the novels by vocal minority of fans, with Legacy and Knights of the Old Republic being the high points to most people but some prefering Dark Times or Invasion.

More people read the novels so they're more popular, but I've never seen a forum post where someone who reads equal amounts of comics and novels prefers the novels in general, just ones where someone's favourite work is a novel but they prefer the comics over all.

[Weezer]

Most of those are from the short stories collected in Tales from Jabba's Palace/Tales of the Bounty Hunters/Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina where it was kind of the point. They don't just randomly pepper them around.


And Tales From Jabba's Palace is actually an interesting collection of short stories, it's always interesting to see how major events like this fit into all the minor character's personal stories. Also, just to be clear, I don't think any of them but Fett were shown to have had a past with Han.

[Zevox]

Although Traviss is the worst offender in this department, she's not the only one. A lot of the New Jedi Order books put about some nonsense about how there isn't any Dark Side to the Force, and it's the intentions of the user that matter. This directly contradicts the movies, and I think it was eventually refuted in-universe, but for awhile it was becoming commonly accepted among some of the fan base.
That would be Vergere's philosophy of the Force as one. Which yes, contradicts the movies, but in the best possible way - one which would eliminate to dull black-and-white morality of the setting and open the possibility of far more interesting stories.

I was personally very disappointed when that one got retconned away. That was easily the best development from the NJO series.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

And of course, as mentioned above there's the persistent misunderstanding of the nature of the Force, dividing it into the Dark Side and a nonexistent Light Side, thus creating the false notion that "bringing balance to the Force" involves killing off all the Light Side users to balance the numbers on each side.

I'm wondering where the notion that:

"The light side and the dark side both exist, both are necessary, and the two need to be in balance, for harmony"

first appeared?


I've seen it at least once- the New Jedi Order novel Edge of Victory I by Greg Keyes- Anakin Solo uses it when attempting to explain the Force to a Vong.

The idea that "the force is a tool- it's what you're doing with it that's moral, or immoral" is also voiced by Anakin Solo in the same book- well before Vergere says similar things.


Also, just to be clear, I don't think any of them but Fett were shown to have had a past with Han.

Dengar (the guy with the bandaged head) has. Fett's past with Han isn't shown much- it tends to appear more in the Han Solo trilogy (A C. Crispin).

[Beowulf DW]

Presenting the Force as a tool also undermines the idea that it has a will. "The Will of the Force" as Qui-Gon says.

[hamishspence]

There's room for a bit of both- a neutral "Unifying Force" that doesn't take sides, and a benevolent "Living Force" that lends its support to the Jedi as their ally:

"For my ally is the Force- and a powerful ally it is."
"Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor".

On the "clone numbers controversy"- many early novels by other authors, not just Traviss, used "unit" to mean "individual" so "200,000 units with a million more on the way" was "200,000 clones with a million more clones on the way".

The latest Star Wars novel,
pages 333-334, Darth Plagueis (by James Luceno) published Jan 2012:

"I believe that the Kaminoans could be induced to grow and train a cloned army."

Sifo-Dyas took a long moment to reply. "You said yourself that the Republic would never sanction an army."

"The Republic needn't know," Damask said cautiously. "Neither would the Jedi Order have to know. It would be an army that might never have to be used, and yet be available in reserve should the need ever arise."

"Who in their right mind would fund an army that would never be used?"

"I would," Damask said. "Along with some of my associates in the Banking Clan - and in conjunction with contacts in Rothana Heavy Engineering, which would supply the ships, armaments, and other material."

Sifo-Dyas fixed him with a look. "Come to the point, Magister."

"The Kaminoans will not create an army for me, but they would do so for the Jedi Order. They have been fascinated by the Jedi for millennia."

Sifo-Dyas's dark brown eyes widened. "You're not proposing cloning Jedi-"

"No. I have been assured that such a thing is impossible, in any case. But I have been assured that a human army a million strong could be ready for deployment in as few as ten years."

"You're suggesting I circumvent the High Council."

"I suppose I am. The Kaminoans need only a modest down payment, which I could provide to you through untraceable accounts I maintain in Outer Rim banks."

Again the Jedi remained silent for a long moment. "I need to consider this."

"Of course you do," Damask said. "And when you've reached a decision, you can contact me at my residence downside."

also supports it somewhat, with the phrasing "a million strong" rather than "a million units strong" or "a million divisions strong".

[TheCountAlucard]

Darth Plagueis... isn't that the one that references the necromancer-y guy, "Darth Andeddu?" :smallamused:

I can't say I'm surprised that they stuck with the "stupid number," though. Way to maintain our suspension of disbelief by outnumbering the clone army by more than a billion-to-one. :smallsigh:

[hamishspence]

Darth Plagueis... isn't that the one that references the necromancer-y guy, "Darth Andeddu?" :smallamused:

Actually, he gets mentioned a lot more in Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil though I believe his holocron appears in the Legacy comics before this.


I can't say I'm surprised that they stuck with the "stupid number," though. Way to maintain our suspension of disbelief by outnumbering the clone army by more than a billion-to-one. :smallsigh:

After the short story General Grievous: Lord of War was published, with its "quintillions of battle droids" (thus, outnumbering the entire sentient population of the galaxy by more than 10 to one) a later short story (Odds) attempted to debunk this figure- portraying it as propaganda- and the real figure as more like 100 million front line droid soldiers.

Not very well done though, by some accounts. Still, more feasible than the quintillions figure IMO.

[Mando Knight]

(thus, outnumbering the entire sentient population of the galaxy by more than 10 to one)

Those're good odds. For the Republic.

(Seriously, those droids are what you get when you develop an AI specifically to be a moron and give it a gun.)

[Karoht]

Those're good odds. For the Republic.

(Seriously, those droids are what you get when you develop an AI specifically to be a moron and give it a gun.)
So the battle droids are Wheatly from Portal 2, but with a working body and a weapon.

... yeah that sounds about right. Who thought this was a wise investment of funds/resources?

[Axolotl]

So the battle droids are Wheatly from Portal 2, but with a working body and a weapon.

... yeah that sounds about right. Who thought this was a wise investment of funds/resources?It's like they wanted to make the galaxy seem threatened while it's actully under no danger at all.

[hamishspence]

Those're good odds. For the Republic.

In Labyrinth of Evil Mace states there aren't enough battle droids in the entire galaxy to occupy Coruscant.

And Coruscant only has a population of about 3 trillion (1 trillion registered, roughly 2 trillion unregistered and visitors).

So the "quintillions" number would mean the droids outnumber the population of Coruscant about a million to one.

[Mando Knight]

In Labyrinth of Evil Mace states there aren't enough battle droids in the entire galaxy to occupy Coruscant.

And Coruscant only has a population of about 3 trillion (1 trillion registered, roughly 2 trillion unregistered and visitors).

So the "quintillions" number would mean the droids outnumber the population of Coruscant about a million to one.

1.) Mace isn't all knowing.
2.) Still good odds. :smalltongue:

[Felhammer]

Its a shared universe that has been pumping out a horde of material each and every year since the early 90's. There's bound to be good stuff, bad stuff and meh stuff.

[hamishspence]

In the novels, the clones seem to be seriously worried when they're outnumbered five to one by the droids.

[Felhammer]

In the novels, the clones seem to be seriously worried when they're outnumbered five to one by the droids.

The movies never show the war from the eyes of the Clone. The TV show is a giant propaganda film, so the clones are only worried when they are outnumbered 20 to 1. The Book clones are the most realistic clones; regardless of how dumb Battle Droids are - they are still pumping out 5 times the number of shots you are, one of them is bound to hit their mark.

[hamishspence]

The movies never show the war from the eyes of the Clone. The TV show is a giant propaganda film, so the clones are only worried when they are outnumbered 20 to 1.

The older TV show (called Clone Wars instead of The Clone Wars) was even worse in that respect- with Jedi jumping kilometres in the air, and destroying kilometre-high tanks single-handed. Canonically, one of the characters in that series later wrote propaganda films- and it's not that much of a stretch to regard the scenes in it as exaggerations.


The Book clones are the most realistic clones; regardless of how dumb Battle Droids are - they are still pumping out 5 times the number of shots you are, one of them is bound to hit their mark.

Yes. And the author of one of the books that show these clones, was the one responsible for the "NOT quintillions" estimate for number of droids.

[Weezer]

It's like they wanted to make the galaxy seem threatened while it's actully under no danger at all.

Imagine that. I wonder who would have motivations to do something of that nature...

[Karoht]

The movies never show the war from the eyes of the Clone. The TV show is a giant propaganda film, so the clones are only worried when they are outnumbered 20 to 1. The Book clones are the most realistic clones; regardless of how dumb Battle Droids are - they are still pumping out 5 times the number of shots you are, one of them is bound to hit their mark.
Rapid Fire weapons with the most advanced weapon technology.
Still haven't developed a targeting system that can hit the broad side of a barn.
It's okay, it's the same beef I have with most tabletop RPG's.
Actually, come to think of it, I'm really amazed that there was not a tie-in tabletop wargame, fighting Battledroids and Clone Troopers, etc. Oh look, Lucas wasn't a complete sell out. I'm shocked.

[Weezer]

Rapid Fire weapons with the most advanced weapon technology.
Still haven't developed a targeting system that can hit the broad side of a barn.
It's okay, it's the same beef I have with most tabletop RPG's.
Actually, come to think of it, I'm really amazed that there was not a tie-in tabletop wargame, fighting Battledroids and Clone Troopers, etc. Oh look, Lucas wasn't a complete sell out. I'm shocked.

Well there actually was a star wars collectable miniatures wargame, I even played it for a while it was pretty fun. I always used thrawn, one of the only ways to beat the incredibly overpowered sith/jedi without using one of your own.

[Mando Knight]

Well there actually was a star wars collectable miniatures wargame, I even played it for a while it was pretty fun. I always used thrawn, one of the only ways to beat the incredibly overpowered sith/jedi without using one of your own.

Other ways:

Attack spam. Mandalorian Captain grants Twin Attack to followers within 6, and the Mandalorian Quartermaster grants +4 attack to followers within 6... and these stack. The Mandalorian Scout gets Double Attack, Opportunist, and Greater Mobile Attack, meaning that by waiting, it gets 4 attacks per round at +16 to hit for 20 damage each.

Commander Effects. As detailed above, those three (point values are 23, 26, and 19, respectively) and their stacking effects makes for a deadly combination. General Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader, Imperial Commander, while themselves Force users, also provide commander effects. The former grants +4 attack and defense to followers with allies within 6, and the latter grants +6 defense to all trooper followers.

War machines. Blizzard Scout 1 gives you a hefty discount on all other AT-STs, and provides a -4 defense penalty against Mounted Weapons to anything it attacks, hit or miss. With Double Attacks at 40 damage each, that defense penalty can be a killer.

Yes, General Kenobi's Soresu mastery is a killer here (50% chance to ignore attacks completely, no Force points needed), but most Jedi don't have the ability to deflect every shot.

[Weezer]

Other ways:

Attack spam. Mandalorian Captain grants Twin Attack to followers within 6, and the Mandalorian Quartermaster grants +4 attack to followers within 6... and these stack. The Mandalorian Scout gets Double Attack, Opportunist, and Greater Mobile Attack, meaning that by waiting, it gets 4 attacks per round at +16 to hit for 20 damage each.

Commander Effects. As detailed above, those three (point values are 23, 26, and 19, respectively) and their stacking effects makes for a deadly combination. General Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader, Imperial Commander, while themselves Force users, also provide commander effects. The former grants +4 attack and defense to followers with allies within 6, and the latter grants +6 defense to all trooper followers.

War machines. Blizzard Scout 1 gives you a hefty discount on all other AT-STs, and provides a -4 defense penalty against Mounted Weapons to anything it attacks, hit or miss. With Double Attacks at 40 damage each, that defense penalty can be a killer.

Yes, General Kenobi's Soresu mastery is a killer here (50% chance to ignore attacks completely, no Force points needed), but most Jedi don't have the ability to deflect every shot.

Oh I know there are other ways, it's just that unless you plan very well the games often came down to who had the best jedi/sith. Now I want to play again. Sigh.

[Felhammer]

The older TV show (called Clone Wars instead of The Clone Wars) was even worse in that respect- with Jedi jumping kilometres in the air, and destroying kilometre-high tanks single-handed. Canonically, one of the characters in that series later wrote propaganda films- and it's not that much of a stretch to regard the scenes in it as exaggerations.

The Micro-Series was, basically, a gigantic anime-style hack and slash adventure where everyone important had protagonist' shields set to full power. Also, all of their damage (read: carnage) are greatly exaggerated if looked upon in the same light as the movies and books (and comics).




Yes. And the author of one of the books that show these clones, was the one responsible for the "NOT quintillions" estimate for number of droids.

The US had 13,000 troops in Iraq and Iraq is rather small compared to the entire size of the earth. Assuming 13,000 troops is a light occupation force for an area the size of Iraq, then you would need 4,417,397 to occupy all the land of earth with a light occupation force. If the oceans were colonized (or paved over) then you would need a force of 15,128,174 men to lightly occupy a world the size of earth.

According to a map I once saw, the Separatists controlled 40 star systems (or there abouts) before the war broke out. Assuming the fact that they would need to protect each star system from possible invasion, it is not unlikely that they had at least a minimal occupation force (enough to lightly hold the land area of earth) spread out across each star system (defense forces, forces in ships, forces in space stations, etc.). So just going off that premise, the CIS had 176,695,880 Droids. Then over the course of the war, they came to threaten a large portion of the the galaxy. So let's assume that they had a light occupation force in a hundred star systems. With that in mind, their total numbers could easily be 17,669,588,000.

Even if they had an (whole) earth-sized occupation force spread across a hundred star system, their total number would be 1,512,817,400.

I'm not sure how they can arrive at the quintillion number. Even if they used a large occupation force (10 times the light whole-earth occupation force) spread across a thousand star systems (a decent number of wholly controlled and contested areas) would still only garner 151,281,740,000 droids.

If I recall correctly it is said there are a million habitable worlds in the Star Wars Galaxy. If we take a whole-earth occupation force and put one on every planet, then we would (finally) get 15,128,174,000,000 droids.

[Karoht]

If someone said that Quintillion's of droids couldn't occupy Coruscant, how the heck did the Rebellion do it in the Xwing series, which takes place post-Endor?

Answer:
Like I've said for years regarding the SWEU, bad writing. Writers who have no sense of scale especially.

[hamishspence]

Mace said an unknown amount of battle droids (but, all of the ones the Separatists had) couldn't occupy Coruscant.

A later writer wrote a short story about Grievous which had him being told he'd command quintillions of battle droids.

Later still, another writer concluded this was ridiculous and tried to retcon it in their own short story.


If someone said that Quintillion's of droids couldn't occupy Coruscant, how the heck did the Rebellion do it in the Xwing series, which takes place post-Endor?

The Rebellion didn't need to "occupy Coruscant" because the populace wasn't wasn't hostile to them- once the Imperial leadership and their troops were defeated, the planet opened up to them.

On the number of habitable systems in the Star Wars galaxy- in the first novelization (A New Hope) it's implied to be 1 million in the Empire.

However, later this is changed to "full member systems" with more than 100 million systems in the Empire having populations "enough to qualify for representation" and close to 1 billion systems "having somebody living in them"

These nearly a billion, are what Admiral Ozzel's referring to in The Empire Strikes Back when he says "There are so many uncharted settlements"

1 quintillion is a million billion.

[Karoht]

A later writer wrote a short story about Grievous which had him being told he'd command quintillions of battle droids.
1 quintillion is a million billion.Yeup, that sounds to me like the sense of scale gone out of whack.

And a quintillion battle droids with a quintillion blasters still can't hit the broad side of a barn. That only sounds like an even MORE collossal waste of resources, no matter how vast the galaxy may be.
Though give them typewriters and they'll eventually reproduce the works of shakespear.

[hamishspence]

Yeup, that sounds to me like the sense of scale gone out of whack.

Curtis Saxton's Incredible Cross Sections series was one of the ones that first used the "several quintillion battle droids" figure (for the Revenge of the Sith cross sections book).

He's also a big advocate for "star destroyers that can melt the entire top surface of a planet within an hour" and so forth- as well as the idea that the second Death Star was more than five times the diameter of the first one.

Which does not stack up at all with later references that give the size of the Forest Moon as Mercury-sized (4900 km diameter)- far too small to make a 900 km Death Star II feasible-

quite aside from his estimate of the Forest Moon being 11.5 times the diameter of the DS2, being based on only one screenshot- and many other screenshots producing a Forest Moon much larger relative to the DS2.

[Aotrs Commander]

The US had 13,000 troops in Iraq and Iraq is rather small compared to the entire size of the earth. Assuming 13,000 troops is a light occupation force for an area the size of Iraq, then you would need 4,417,397 to occupy all the land of earth with a light occupation force. If the oceans were colonized (or paved over) then you would need a force of 15,128,174 men to lightly occupy a world the size of earth.

According to a map I once saw, the Separatists controlled 40 star systems (or there abouts) before the war broke out. Assuming the fact that they would need to protect each star system from possible invasion, it is not unlikely that they had at least a minimal occupation force (enough to lightly hold the land area of earth) spread out across each star system (defense forces, forces in ships, forces in space stations, etc.). So just going off that premise, the CIS had 176,695,880 Droids. Then over the course of the war, they came to threaten a large portion of the the galaxy. So let's assume that they had a light occupation force in a hundred star systems. With that in mind, their total numbers could easily be 17,669,588,000.

I calculated a while back from wiki's data that there are, in fact, 92 million armed forces on Earth currently, and 20.5 million of those on active service.

So your starting numbers are, in fact, a touch too low, though only by no more than about six times, so still in the right ball-park.

I treat the stated numbers of three million clone troopers with utter derision, as it shows not even the most very basic knowledge of military history or research, not even thirty seconds on google - doubly damning for Traviss, since she actually served in the TA and who should have known better.

Three million troops was not enough to take over Europe, let along fight a galactic war (especially since it was specified that clones crewed the starships). Sci-fi authors have no sense of scale indeed...Which would be fine, but I have no sympathy with modern authors who don't even bother to check easily accessable internet sources to at least get the right order of magnitude. If I'm paying for something, I expect the individuals to put at the very least the same amount of effort in as I do on a post on a freaking internet forum...!

Quadrillions of droids is probably nearly as daft, but at least it's stupidly-big number, not a stupidly small once. (And as such, it's ay least a bit easier to cover, by the time you've counted all the maintenance droids, repair droids, supply droids, the droids who make the tea for the commanders, the droid pets of the Seperatist commander's niece's sister's daughter's roomate...!)

Though I suspect "quadrillion" was chosen because it has a nice ring to it...

(And if Hamish is right - and he usually is - at least the dude has tried to do some fagpacket calculations, at some point, even if he got 'em wrong, which gives him a point in his favour.)

[Karoht]

While I applaud the clarifications regarding the usage of the word Quadrillion in it's context, the author might just as well have said bajillion. It would have made about as much sense. It's junk such as this which only reinforces my dislike of the SWEU.

[hamishspence]

Quadrillions of droids is probably nearly as daft, but at least it's stupidly-big number, not a stupidly small once. (And as such, it's ay least a bit easier to cover, by the time you've counted all the maintenance droids, repair droids, supply droids, the droids who make the tea for the commanders, the droid pets of the Seperatist commander's niece's sister's daughter's roomate...!)

Though I suspect "quadrillion" was chosen because it has a nice ring to it...


Remember "Quintillions" is "thousands of quadrillions".

Traviss, it must be remembered, didn't come up with the notion that the initial wave of clones at the start of the war was 1.2 million- she only continued it.

And it's less the EU, so much as "reference books to the prequel movies" that are responsible.

[Tavar]

Note that one method to excuse this idea is that the clones where a strike-force, and that systems would use their own defense fleets(crewed by non-clones) normally. Not a perfect fit, but if you use that logic, the number of clones needed to make sense is lower. Probably not as low as 3 million, though.

[Aotrs Commander]

Remember "Quintillions" is "thousands of quadrillions".

Quadrillions was what I'd read on wookiepedia at one point (and to be honest I'd not read close enough to notice it's now quintillions and that there was a change - it's not like I use either number in converation normally!), the latter is perhaps rather too large, one feels...


Traviss, it must be remembered, didn't come up with the notion that the initial wave of clones at the start of the war was 1.2 million- she only continued it.

And it's less the EU, so much as "reference books to the prequel movies" that are responsible.

Anyone discussion an army in terms of "units" and assuming "unit" mean "one dude" and coming from a military background gets no sympathy from me. She could quite easily have done the sensible thing and clarified that "unit" meant "unit" (which I assumed myself in the first place) and not "clone" and didn't. Because armies have never worked in anything less than units (from 6-10 man squads and contuberniums to hundreds-strong larger units) in any period in history (and not even in virtually all sci-fi)... And compounding it by stating that the clones were ship crews as well and counted under the same total... No, she doesn't get any latitude from me on that, sorry.

[TheCountAlucard]

Note that one method to excuse this idea is that the clones where a strike-force, and that systems would use their own defense fleets(crewed by non-clones) normally. Not a perfect fit, but if you use that logic, the number of clones needed to make sense is lower. Probably not as low as 3 million, though.Unfortunately, one of the reasons they used clones at all was that they had established that the Republic did not have any sort of army beforehand; planets like Naboo only had a skeletal volunteer army.

Still annoys me that if the Republic had just done a recruitment drive, one so weak that the number of people on each planet actually answered the call-to-arms was in the single digits, it would still be orders of magnitude greater than the clone army.

[Wardog]

I've read quite a few EU graphic novels (can't remember the names, I'm afraid), and most of those have been pretty decent - good Starwarsy fun, with the only real problem the absurd power-creep of the Jedi.

(The films portray Jedi as basically special forces or super-spies, with magic powers and ace sword-fightign skills. Which is good, believeable in context, and means Jedi can make a difference in galactic wars and politics without being invincible. There was absolutely no need to elevate them (or the Sith) to near-godlike abilities).


On the other hand, most of the EU novels I've read have been poor to attrocious (I have to confess I haven't that many of then, and none of the highly recommended ones).

I'd say one of their main problems (apart from plain bad writing) is the tendancy to try to explain everything that occured in the films, usually in the most banal way possible (and usually by connecting everyone in some way to the main characters).

It gets particularly bad when it ends up turning every alien race into a clone of the one member that got a minor part in the films: Greedo was a bounty hunter, therefore all his species are. Ditto for Bossk. The female Twi'lek was an enslaved dancer, and the male one was a creep, therefore female Twi'leks are dancers and often get enslaved, and the males tend to be creeps and slavers. Bothan spies acquired the Death Star plans, so Bothans culture is based around spying. And Lando's comment about hoping the plans were "worth the price we paid" was interpreted in the most literal way possible (rather than refering to the cost in lives), so the Bothans will spy for anyone provided they're paid enough. Etc.


Although the amusing thought occured to me while writing this, is that most of these complaints (bad writing, explaining everything in the most banal way possible, including things that didn't need explaining, and connecting everyone in the galaxy to the original main characters) was exactly what Lucas did in the prequal trilogy.

[Reverent-One]

Anyone discussion an army in terms of "units" and assuming "unit" mean "one dude" and coming from a military background gets no sympathy from me. She could quite easily have done the sensible thing and clarified that "unit" meant "unit" (which I assumed myself in the first place) and not "clone" and didn't. Because armies have never worked in anything less than units (from 6-10 man squads and contuberniums to hundreds-strong larger units) in any period in history (and not even in virtually all sci-fi)... And compounding it by stating that the clones were ship crews as well and counted under the same total... No, she doesn't get any latitude from me on that, sorry.

If she had done that, she would have been contradicting the official novelization as well as other, previously written, EU novels.

[hamishspence]

Yup- specifically Shatterpoint, The Cestus Deception, and Labyrinth of Evil, by the time her short story Odds was published, as I recall.

The last time this was brought up:


problem is, that in the AoTC novel, when Obi Wan mentions the "A million more on the way" figure, Mace responds "A million clone warriors?" and Obi-Wan says "Yes".

Most books published after AoTC used this- Shatterpoint, The Cestus Deception, Labyrinth of Evil.

it was explained by the clones acting in support of existing militias, rather than fighting the whole war on their own.

If new Star Wars reference books were to be published, that are supposed to take into account these sort of plot points, I'd go with something like this.

The 1.2 million clones figure refers to frontline pilots and footsoldiers.

The ship manufacturers also hired crew. Clones might be the most senior crewmembers, and some of the gunners, but the idea of everybody on the ship being a clone seems like a tremendous waste of ability.

The Kaminoans might have had offworld production facilities, which, while major, weren't activated for several months after the Kaminoan ones (way back 10 years before Episode II)- hence, we have 1.2 million clones for most of the early war, but many millions in the middle and late stages of the war.

Traviss's idea that the droids should outnumber the clones roughly 100 to 1 seems more reasonable to me than billions to one- but the clone numbers should be beefed up a little, at least in the middle stages of the war.

[Mando Knight]

I usually just chalk it up to a simple fact (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale).

[turkishproverb]

If she had done that, she would have been contradicting the official novelization as well as other, previously written, EU novels.

She'd have done that either way. Heck, Lucas wrote an intro that suggested more than a million clones died in one battle.

[hamishspence]

Which intro was that?

[Gnoman]

If she had done that, she would have been contradicting the official novelization as well as other, previously written, EU novels.

Nothing new about that. The SW canon is changed all the time, and there is official rules on how to interpret canon. Just as one example, the terminology used throughout the Correllian trilogy is wrong enough to completely confuse someone who is used to the the later works.

[hamishspence]

Specifically?

Retcons have been going on for a long time though- in the aforementioned Corellian Trilogy there's a stressing that the Empire's gone- but in Zahn's Hand of Thrawn duology it still has a thousand systems left.

[Gnoman]

The trilogy that I'm thinking of is the original centerpoint station one. When it was written, the weapons terminology was still quite loose.

All ship-to-ship energy bolts were referred to as "turbolasers," and all fighter missile weapons were "proton torpedoes." Later on, the categories of ship weapons were made much more specific, with "turbolasers" being specifically a capital-ship armament while the standard fighter weapon was the "laser" or "blaster." While a fairly minor issue, a reader used to later-written works seeing a Ugly being described as carrying a turbolaser would not get the intended image (rather than lightly-armed scrap, it would seem like an extremely dangerous opponent due to sheer firepower.)

Still not as bad as fan-made SW mods for other games using that stupid Imperator garbage Saxon started.

[hamishspence]

Some novels did have Uglies carrying heavy firepower for a fighter though. I think I, Jedi had one.

I never really got Saxton's dislike for ships not having a class name which was the same as the first ship in the line. So what if the first Super-class Star Destroyer was the Executor? That doesn't mean you have to try and force everyone else to retcon Super-class to Executor-class.

Or Star Destroyer into Star Dreadnought, for that matter, given that the novelization of The Empire Strikes Back consistantly, in the main narration rather than just the character wordings, refers to Vader's ship as a Star Destroyer- albeit the largest of the group.

These aren't the only issues I have with Saxton's influence on the EU, but they're the first that spring to mind. His insistance on interpreting everything in the novels that mentioned Endor or Ewoks, in terms of his "Endor Holocaust" theory also grated.

While the novels eventually accepted his idea of the Imperator class- they stressed that the ships of the class were renamed Imperial class very early on.

And in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, the first ship of that line was not called Imperator or Imperial, but Executrix.

Death Star also uses the term Super-class for the giant ships, though Wookieepedia insists on it being a "cover name" and the true name being Executor-class.

[Aotrs Commander]

The trilogy that I'm thinking of is the original centerpoint station one. When it was written, the weapons terminology was still quite loose.

All ship-to-ship energy bolts were referred to as "turbolasers," and all fighter missile weapons were "proton torpedoes." Later on, the categories of ship weapons were made much more specific, with "turbolasers" being specifically a capital-ship armament while the standard fighter weapon was the "laser" or "blaster." While a fairly minor issue, a reader used to later-written works seeing a Ugly being described as carrying a turbolaser would not get the intended image (rather than lightly-armed scrap, it would seem like an extremely dangerous opponent due to sheer firepower.)

It is just about possible to mount a (small) turbolaser on a fighter, though. The Empire's short-lived TIE Experiementals did just that. And conversely, starships do mount lasers, as opposed to turbolasers. (Interdictor cruisers, Lancer Frigates, for one). "Uglies" were so called because of their slapped-together design, not that they were all completely as inept as TIE-Wings. An ugly with a turbolaser would be quite dangerous - but likely to be something of a glass cannon and probably with poorer capabilities than a proper fighter. (Then again, the X-TIEs the Twi'Leks used were quite capable, so.)

Remember, "turbolaser" is a class of weapon, not a specific one, and not all turbolasers (or lasers or blasters) are created equal.

A large number of fighters do carry both proton torpedoes (mostly anti-capital starship, but quite capable of ruining a fighter's day) and well as lasers or blasters.

I read the Centrepoint trilogy quite late (long after reading the X-Wing series - and playing the games which served as a base for them) and I don't remember any discrepancies in that one. (The Black Fleet Crisis, yes. But not that one.)

[Gnoman]

I may be conflating the dogfight in question with an unrelated work, but the following scenes describe Luke blowing up said Ugly with the "turbolasers" on his X-wing. My point was simply that there was some early vaugeness in the terminology that was quietly retconned away.

EDIT: This (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian/B-wing_Ugly) is the Ugly in question. The anti-infantry turret mentioned was not present for the dogfight I'm referring to.

[Mando Knight]

Or Star Destroyer into Star Dreadnought, for that matter, given that the novelization of The Empire Strikes Back consistantly, in the main narration rather than just the character wordings, refers to Vader's ship as a Star Destroyer- albeit the largest of the group.

This is a terminology bit that I dislike in particular. Yes, it makes sense to call Super Star Destroyers Dreadnoughts, but as a kid, I never took the term "Star Destroyer" to mean "a naval destroyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer) scaled up to starship size" but "hey, this ship is really badass, let's call it a Star Destroyer, since that sounds really doom-y (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomyDoomsOfDoom)" in a similar fashion to the Death Star. It's not a star (though its power output needs to be similar to one to run that main cannon and all the systems on the ship), it's just a big round station of death.

[Velaryon]

Sorry to respond to posts that are a couple pages old, but I just now saw them.


The authors of the on-going Fate of the Jedi series specifically pointed out that they didn't have any Boba Fett fan-girls working with them. They have gone out of their way to portray the Mandalorians as brutal, cruel, and inferior to the Jedi in a fight.

The nature of the Force thing was written off as Jacen Solo and a minority of Jedi making dangerous assumptions.

All true, but it doesn't change the fact that these things happened in-universe, and are accepted as canon. With regard to the Potentium heresy, I know it was debunked eventually but it still was brought in and treated, for awhile at least, as truth, even by characters like Luke who had decades of experience that ran directly contrary to this fallacy. All in another lame attempt to make "neutral" or "gray Jedi."

With regard to the Tales books, I know and have read most if not all of them. On the whole I found them of mediocre at best quality, with stories ranging from pointless (most of the stuff in Mos Eisley Cantina) to outright terrible (the IG-88 story in Bounty Hunters). The only one I can remember that was better than mediocre was called "The Longest Fall" or something like that, and was an internal monologue by an Imperial officer who was reporting a failure to Darth Vader and knew that Vader was going to shoot the messenger.


I've read quite a few EU graphic novels (can't remember the names, I'm afraid), and most of those have been pretty decent - good Starwarsy fun, with the only real problem the absurd power-creep of the Jedi.

Personally, what bothered me most of all was how the comics seem to have treated the Sith, especially the Legacy comics. Not only do the majority of the most truly terrible Sith names come from the comics, but then you have the One Sith order - Darth Krayt, the admittedly-badass Darth Nihl, and then a bunch of other cookie-cutter Sith that seem to have been created with the formula "let's take Darth Maul's tattoos and see how they look on as many different species as we can possibly cram into one comic series."



I'd say one of their main problems (apart from plain bad writing) is the tendancy to try to explain everything that occured in the films, usually in the most banal way possible (and usually by connecting everyone in some way to the main characters).

This is definitely a problem. I've lost count of how many separate stories were written to explain exactly how the plans for the first Death Star made it to the Tantive IV. Since the EU treats everything as canon unless it's specifically ruled otherwise, you end up with the most convoluted, ridiculous, contrived timeline that involves the plans being handed off so many times it's like a game of Monkey in the Middle spanning half the galaxy.


It gets particularly bad when it ends up turning every alien race into a clone of the one member that got a minor part in the films: Greedo was a bounty hunter, therefore all his species are. Ditto for Bossk. The female Twi'lek was an enslaved dancer, and the male one was a creep, therefore female Twi'leks are dancers and often get enslaved, and the males tend to be creeps and slavers. Bothan spies acquired the Death Star plans, so Bothans culture is based around spying. And Lando's comment about hoping the plans were "worth the price we paid" was interpreted in the most literal way possible (rather than refering to the cost in lives), so the Bothans will spy for anyone provided they're paid enough. Etc.

This is also quite frustrating. Apparently all Duros are spacers because that one in the cantina was a spacer. All Hutts are gangsters because Jabba was a gangster. All Bith are musically inclined because there was a band of them in the cantina. It just goes on and on like that. Oh, and if you notice, Rodians always seem to die. Can anybody name a Rodian that played any sort of meaningful role in a Star Wars story and survived to make a second appearance? I can't.


Although the amusing thought occured to me while writing this, is that most of these complaints (bad writing, explaining everything in the most banal way possible, including things that didn't need explaining, and connecting everyone in the galaxy to the original main characters) was exactly what Lucas did in the prequal trilogy.

And all these years I thought Lucas never paid attention to the EU. Maybe he was taking inspiration from it all along, just from all the wrong parts!

[Tavar]

I did like how the 3rd x-wing book, The Kyrtos trap, or something, tried to change/reveal more about the Twi'lek. In fact, that series mentions the whole planet of hat thing, and how it isn't true, a couple of times.

But, yeah, planet of hats is annoying.

[Velaryon]

The X-Wing books are among the few that seem to avoid the trope, but sadly most EU sources still continue to do it as far as I know.

[hamishspence]

While a fairly minor issue, a reader used to later-written works seeing a Ugly being described as carrying a turbolaser would not get the intended image (rather than lightly-armed scrap, it would seem like an extremely dangerous opponent due to sheer firepower.)

The battle in Showdown At Centerpoint has an awful lot of cases where the capital ships are referred to as firing at each other with "laser cannon".

And only having very few turrets- to the extent that it becomes a case of "Shoot rear turret, shoot front turret- ship is disarmed".

But that's not a huge problem for me.

[Mando Knight]

I did like how the 3rd x-wing book, The Kyrtos trap, or something, tried to change/reveal more about the Twi'lek. In fact, that series mentions the whole planet of hat thing, and how it isn't true, a couple of times.

But, yeah, planet of hats is annoying.
Butbutbut... without racial stereotypes, how do we know how to portray them?! :smalltongue:

And only having very few turrets- to the extent that it becomes a case of "Shoot rear turret, shoot front turret- ship is disarmed".
To an extent, it's justified canon-wise... the models for the ISDs have only eight main turrets. They have additional firepower according to most sources (and the angles that they fire at do support such assessments), but those eight heavy turrets are the most apparent armament on the ship, and probably the heaviest cannon on the entire vessel.

Now, you might say, "but that limits your broadside!" since they have the command tower in the way. The answer is that the ship isn't built for broadsiding that way... it angles itself slightly downward to present its forward face to the enemy, providing a large striking surface to its enemy to be sure, but one that includes eight octuple-barrel heavy turbolaser turrets and how ever many additional smaller cannon the ship has on that whole surface. The fighters, then, are safe to disembark from the hangars, as the main hangars are on the ventral surface, meaning that the enemy cruisers have to cleave through the hull of the ISD before getting the fighters.

[hamishspence]

The fact that the ships involved weren't ISDs but "Bakura class destroyers" vs "older models" of Imperial destroyer, also helps it be a bit less implausible that hits in the right place could effectively disarm the whole ship.