[3.5] How to put a new, highly-opinionated, power-gaming wizard in his place? [Archive]

CodeRed

2012-02-09, 06:14 PM

I recently joined a 3.5 DnD group at my college. We were short on players the first week, and so one of the other players invited his newbie friend who had just recently started playing. I can already tell he's one of the "play to win" people. He believes that druids are good for nothing but healing (I'm currently playing a druid). I want to prove him wrong in the worst way. What are the most ridiculous spells possible that I can throw out to show him up?

Don't sink to his level. Ever. It is just so not worth it. Just play the game to have fun. As long as you are having fun, then you are winning more than he ever can.

That being said, if it becomes offensive or abusive, then handle it out of game. If the guy turns out to be a **** that's something you need to address as a group. Trying to solve out of game issues inside the game is much the number one way to kill a game and fast.

If you just want to optimize your character, plenty of people on this board will be able to help you. However, if it's just to show him up, I would strongly advise against it.

dsmiles

2012-02-09, 06:14 PM

I agree with Helldog, but if you're set on your course, druids can be the most amazing melee powerhouses with the right buffs and wild shape. They're probably the best melee beast in the PHB. (Well, they might be second best, but I can't remember the specifics of cleric vs. driud melee abilities.)

Zerter

2012-02-09, 06:14 PM

What? He's not only a newbie but he obviously does not understand the game on any level, you should show him by default unless you don't get the game on any level either.

Keld Denar

2012-02-09, 06:19 PM

This way madness lies. You aren't gonna convince him of anything simply by trying to beat him. Just play your character, be useful and effective, and don't gloat. Actions speak louder than words.

As far as spells, Entangle and Produce Flame are really good. Kelpstrand in Stormwrack is a 2nd level Scares Black Tentacles, and Control Winds, when cast twice, is the druidic version of a tactical nuke against anything but a solid stone dwarven fortress.

Wings of Peace

2012-02-09, 06:47 PM

Less responsible answer: Combatty animal companion (Fleshraker, MMIII) & Wildshape + Natural Spell. Venomfire is also pretty spiteful.

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-09, 06:51 PM

Well... so he's a powergaming wizard who doesn't know how to powergame, other than to choose 'wizard'?

...

Have you read the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid handbooks?

onemorelurker

2012-02-09, 07:01 PM

Another problem with trying to prove this guy wrong (in addition to all the personal stuff folks have already said) is that, because you two probably have the most powerful characters in your party, trying to show up the wizard will inevitably result in showing up the other party members too. I don't think it's worth the collateral damage, all else aside.

Hirax

2012-02-09, 07:11 PM

What level? If you can get it, blizzard (Frostburn spell) is a great way to shut down anyone that relies on vision or sound.

Gotterdammerung

2012-02-09, 07:13 PM

Grelna the Blue

2012-02-09, 07:15 PM

It goes almost without saying that if you aren't in an urban or underground environment (and sometimes even if you are) Entangle is your friend. It will stay your friend until well after his first level combat spells are relegated to the trashheap.

But given that you have better hit points, almost certainly have better AC, have an animal companion, are capable of self-healing, and can spontaneously summon allies while he can't spontaneously do anything, why would you bother competing? I mean, I have loved playing wizards since before 2nd Ed., but druids are simply stronger. He'll figure it out soon enough.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-09, 07:20 PM

Focus on summons. Augment Summoning, spontaneous SNA. And some BFC, like Entangle.

Or go full Wild Shape + buffs + animal companion (which also gets the buffs) melee/skirmish. Dire Hawk/Eagle form (Races of the Wild/Stone) with Flyby Attack is an excellent skirmisher, and if you can get Wild Armor or Wilding Clasps (or barding if it's for your animal companion), you can afford to melee as a rhino, bear, dinosaur, cat, wolf...

Endarire

2012-02-09, 07:28 PM

I think the Wizard found his place with his great power and high opinions.

D@rK-SePHiRoTH-

2012-02-09, 07:39 PM

Just play normally for a while, be supportive and useful for your party, make everyone shine and win.
Then one day just say: "today I'm gonna play for myself" and be better than the wizard.
Make sure that people understand that you could do that everyday, but you don't because you enjoy cooperative play more.

wizard player -> pwned

rmg22893

2012-02-09, 07:49 PM

Yeah, I figured the consensus would be a general "don't" :P I'll just do what I normally do, and he shall be in awe of the druidy-ness.

The reason why I want to do this is because he's already tried to meta-game me by trying to stop me from expressing what I wanted to do (tried to cover my mouth with his hand while I was speaking to a bandit while he was thirty feet away) he also regularly interrupts other players while they're speaking.

Urpriest

2012-02-09, 08:08 PM

Since we've all been lectured about this, do be sure that if you do go the Wildshape route to use some decent armor so you won't get torn up. There are a variety of decent options, including the Luminous Armor series of Sanctified spells, Wild Armor, or just using Barding, but it does take a bit of thinking about.

Namfuak

2012-02-09, 08:12 PM

rmg22893

2012-02-09, 08:13 PM

NOhara24

2012-02-09, 08:16 PM

The reason why I want to do this is because he's already tried to meta-game me by trying to stop me from expressing what I wanted to do (tried to cover my mouth with his hand while I was speaking to a bandit while he was thirty feet away) he also regularly interrupts other players while they're speaking.

Sounds like an out-of-character issue. He's just being a ****. It's up to you, out of character, to fix it then. Don't stand for him walking all over you, or other members of the party. If he interrupts someone, it's perfectly alright for you to say, in-character "I'm sorry, I believe X was trying to get a word in." and let the other person continue talking.

Common decency is mandatory at every table. He needs to learn that.

Vow of Poverty :3

NO GODS NO. Avoid this like the plague. Access to magical items will always be better than Vow of Poverty.

rmg22893

2012-02-09, 08:20 PM

Sounds like an out-of-character issue. He's just being a ****. It's up to you, out of character, to fix it then. Don't stand for him walking all over you, or other members of the party. If he interrupts someone, it's perfectly alright for you to say, in-character "I'm sorry, I believe X was trying to get a word in." and let the other person continue talking.

Common decency is mandatory at every table. He needs to learn that.

NO GODS NO. Avoid this like the plague. Access to magical items will always be better than Vow of Poverty.

Not on Druid, man.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-09, 08:24 PM

Not on Druid, man.

You can't carry any mistletoe to cast spells.

But if you are allowed to do that, yeah.

rmg22893

2012-02-09, 08:25 PM

You can't carry any mistletoe to cast spells.

But if you are allowed to do that, yeah.

Yeah, we don't do spell components lol

Dumbledore lives

2012-02-09, 08:27 PM

Not on Druid, man.

Yeah, VoP matters a lot less on druids, because then you don't have to worry about wilding clasps or anything like that, and you're already powerful enough, a little nerf is really not bad.

Coidzor

2012-02-09, 08:32 PM

Say hello to the Druid handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0)

Also, slap him with this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293). Or you could find the most up to date version, I suppose.

Entangle is fun. You've got other casting.

Get a wand of CLW for the out of combat healing and don't heal in combat.

Not on Druid, man.

Wilding Clasps, Wild Armor, Beasthide Armor.

veven

2012-02-09, 08:33 PM

Not on Druid, man.

VOP is almost always a trap, Druid or no.

I'm all for the people taking the feat if they are doing it for RP reasons but unless one is playing in a very low magic campaign with limited magic items VOP is almost always mechanically worse than the ability to use music gear.

rmg22893

2012-02-09, 08:37 PM

VOP is almost always a trap, Druid or no.

I'm all for the people taking the feat if they are doing it for RP reasons but unless one is playing in a very low magic campaign with limited magic items VOP is almost always mechanically worse than the ability to use music gear.

Well, there are three reasons why I play VoP Druid.

1. I like the roleplaying aspect
2. I hate trying to figure out gear, especially on druids.
3. I've played one several times before and I loved it.

Coidzor

2012-02-09, 08:43 PM

1. I like the roleplaying aspect
3. I've played one several times before and I loved it.

Those are reasons why one might do it, but they are not reasons why VoP would be superior.

And, really, you figure out gear about once for the two main types of druid and you've figured it out for most of them.

mregecko

2012-02-09, 08:47 PM

Wall of Thorns! God I love that spell....

danzibr

2012-02-09, 08:49 PM

Coidzor

2012-02-09, 08:53 PM

I mean, I have loved playing wizards since before 2nd Ed., but druids are simply stronger. He'll figure it out soon enough.

Stop, stop, you're busting my sides.

What level? If you can get it, blizzard (Frostburn spell) is a great way to shut down anyone that relies on vision or sound.

That reminds me, isn't there a combination of spells that 1. let you see through snowing conditions and 2. create snowing conditions in a fairly wide area, letting your entire melee contingent enjoy the equivalent of either 20% concealment or invisibility.

More party friendly than team killing and definitely not healing.

Might be cleric-only though, I don't recall.

Urpriest

2012-02-09, 09:12 PM

That reminds me, isn't there a combination of spells that 1. let you see through snowing conditions and 2. create snowing conditions in a fairly wide area, letting your entire melee contingent enjoy the equivalent of either 20% concealment or invisibility.

More party friendly than team killing and definitely not healing.

Might be cleric-only though, I don't recall.

Very simple, Snowsight and Obscuring Snow, both from Frostburn and accessible to Druids.

IP Proofing

2012-02-09, 09:31 PM

Powergamer... "play to win"... He believes that druids are good for nothing but healing (I'm currently playing a druid).

Does not compute!

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-09, 09:35 PM

Does not compute!

:smallsigh:

Just because he's a powergamer doesn't mean he has system mastery. He probably thinks Fireball is better than Fly, because it deals damage to multiple targets.

IP Proofing

2012-02-09, 09:38 PM

:smallsigh:

Just because he's a powergamer doesn't mean he has system mastery. He probably thinks Fireball is better than Fly, because it deals damage to multiple targets.

You're right. Someone can be a powergamer while lacking any and all traits that would actually make them a powergamer. This makes complete sense and is in no way a contradiction.

People like that make us powergamers look bad. You can only get away with being an elitist, sociopathic jerk if you are right.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-09, 10:04 PM

Mithril Leaf

2012-02-09, 10:17 PM

Although its highly irresponsible, I say take Planar Shepherd. Make sure to hold back until its time to shine. If you want to be able to beat him at his own game, I would recommend the fire plane, which gives you efreeti form. This is of course considered highly unsporting.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871574/The_Planar_Shepherd_Handbook
^In case you want a look see at the class.

Dragon Star

2012-02-09, 10:47 PM

You're right. Someone can be a powergamer while lacking any and all traits that would actually make them a powergamer. This makes complete sense and is in no way a contradiction.

People like that make us powergamers look bad. You can only get away with being an elitist, sociopathic jerk if you are right.

Powergaming is a personality type/play style. It has no basis on a powergamers mastery of the rules. Even when I was first playing the game and thought that monk was overpowered, I still tried to get as powerful as possible. It was just that back then I didn't understand which things were powerful.

Bloodgruve

2012-02-09, 10:49 PM

he also regularly interrupts other players while they're speaking.

I'm sorry, did the middle of my sentence interrupt the beginning of yours?

I gamed with a guy like this and it was tough. We eventually made him the DM though and it all worked out ;P

GL
Blood~

Averis Vol

2012-02-10, 04:45 AM

I agree with everyone else here. You shouldn't let him get to you. But if you absolutely must get in a war with him, and you intend to bring this war inside the game, then your best angle is to steal his spellbook and sneak off and sell it in town.

whoa whoa.......selling it implies he could get it back. feed it to your pet, and tell him if he wants it back he can have it back in a few hours. but thats incredibly hurtful and guarenteed to cause a fight.

on the goody goody be nice about it part. most times its not worth dealing with, especially if its a new group for you and you enjoy the company of the rest of the people. just play but don't be afraid to stand up for yourself, i'v played with people who would take advantage of weaker people.

mikau013

2012-02-10, 05:29 AM

Well best response would be to talk to him outside of the game of course.

But otherwise I'd advise using only the phb /mm / dmg. So he can't later claim that you're only strong because of overpowered splats! Core should be enough to well be the strongest char in your group (for most groups, especially if he's is a newbie)

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-10, 07:11 AM

Stop, stop, you're busting my sides.

Please. A bard could do it a level sooner. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm)

My recommendation would be to do things that are combative, but not destructive. If you are 8th level, for instance, Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) and give him a hug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple). When he fails his grapple roll (and he will fail his grapple roll), gets feisty and starts declaring that he wants to cast a spell, remind him that he can't cast any spell that has a somatic or material component, because he can't move his arms or reach into his spell component pouch. When he realizes that he doesn't have any prepared spells with only verbal components, smirk, and show him that the Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) allows you to escape a grapple automatically--but is only available to druids, clerics, bards and rangers (which is to say, almost every core caster that isn't a wizard), and only druids and clerics can cast it by level 7.

Don't show him Heart of Water. Let him find it on his own. You'll have gotten the better of him, and he'll try to get better so that he isn't thwarted in such a fashion again.

Then, thwart him in a completely different fashion that allows him to understand why some things are just good (such as wild shaping into a flying creature and moving out of typical spell range, and proceeding to dominate with the tactic of your choosing).

Repeat until he develops a legitimate sense of system mastery, by which point he'll know enough to make his wizard good (perhaps better than your druid), but he'll also learn to be respectful of your druid's power, as well.

mikau013

2012-02-10, 07:27 AM

When he realizes that he doesn't have any prepared spells with only verbal components, smirk, and show him that the Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) allows you to escape a grapple automatically--but is only available to druids, clerics, bards and rangers (which is to say, almost every core caster that isn't a wizard), and only druids and clerics can cast it by level 7.

Well if he's smart (guess which stat it the main stat for wizards), he'll just find a scroll of Freedom of Movement then and write it in his spellbook so he can cast it too. We're talking about wizards after all :smallmad:

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-10, 08:05 AM

Well if he's smart (guess which stat it the main stat for wizards), he'll just find a scroll of Freedom of Movement then and write it in his spellbook so he can cast it too. We're talking about wizards after all :smallmad:

You can't write a scroll of Freedom of Movement into your spellbook.

You can, however, activate a scroll of Freedom of Movement without making a Use Magic Device check, assuming the scroll was made by a bard; however, you had better be prepared to activate that scroll preemptively, because you cannot retrieve and activate a spell completion item while in a grapple. :smallbiggrin:

mikau013

2012-02-10, 08:39 AM

You can't write a scroll of Freedom of Movement into your spellbook.

By RAW you can, just read the part about writing spells in your spellbook in the PHB.

IP Proofing

2012-02-10, 08:46 AM

I'm sensing sarcasm and arrogance.

You should be sensing sarcasm and humor.

Powergaming is a personality type/play style. It has no basis on a powergamers mastery of the rules. Even when I was first playing the game and thought that monk was overpowered, I still tried to get as powerful as possible. It was just that back then I didn't understand which things were powerful.

Powergaming both describes a mindset and actions. A powergamer that has no idea what they are doing is not a powergamer.

Someone that wants to be a powergamer but lacks the ability to is called a basket weaver, particularly if they refuse to learn but try to make others Suck Like Them.

Heliomance

2012-02-10, 08:58 AM

You can't carry any mistletoe to cast spells.

But if you are allowed to do that, yeah.
Mistletoe doesn't have a gold piece value, I'm pretty sure it's fine.

By RAW you can, just read the part about writing spells in your spellbook in the PHB.

Half correct. They can write it in their spellbook:

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook.

But that doesn't give them the ability to cast it:

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

So yes, a Wizard can put any spell from any class they like into their spellbook. There's a case to be made - though it's unclear - that they can prepare any spell they like, no matter what list it's from, as long as it's in their spellbook. But regardless of whether it's in the book, and regardless of whether they've prepared it, they can't cast it unless it's a sorc/wiz spell.

mikau013

2012-02-10, 09:38 AM

So yes, a Wizard can put any spell from any class they like into their spellbook. There's a case to be made - though it's unclear - that they can prepare any spell they like, no matter what list it's from, as long as it's in their spellbook. But regardless of whether it's in the book, and regardless of whether they've prepared it, they can't cast it unless it's a sorc/wiz spell.

you left out a part of that quote though, where it gives a specific page number. I'm sure you're not arguing that you can never use splat spells on a wizard unless they specifically mention that they add to that list? (very few do).

Not to mention that if you interpret that rule like that, you can't use the creating new spells section at all anymore.

Oh and the Casting spells chapter, in the choosing a spell section, says wizards you select from all prepared spells.

Thus yeah you could theoretically make an argument that it doesn't work, but then half the rules don't actually work anymore.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-10, 10:10 AM

you left out a part of that quote though, where it gives a specific page number. I'm sure you're not arguing that you can never use splat spells on a wizard unless they specifically mention that they add to that list? (very few do).

Actually, every spell I've ever encountered in any splat book has been explicitly mentioned to be on some spell list or other, usually in a section devoted entirely to such lists. When I look at the Spell Compendium, for example, and I flip to page 261, I see the beginning of a list that says "Sorcerer/Wizard Spells" in the title, which is pretty explicit in that it mentions what they are and what class they belong to. Incidentally, the list also contains all spells that the sorcerer/wizard can cast from the Spell Compendium (and only the spells that a sorcerer/wizard can cast; the spell Lesser Vigor, for example, is not a sorcerer/wizard spell in its spell description on page 229, and thus it does not show up at all on the sorcerer/wizard spell list).

Or are you arguing that all of these spell lists are entirely meaningless? Because I'm not sure that I follow you, here.

Not to mention that if you interpret that rule like that, you can't use the creating new spells section at all anymore.

What?

There's only a page in the Dungeon Master's Guide about creating new spells, and it only addresses balance concerns. Are you telling me that you have it in your head that, because the DMG doesn't explicitly state that you can create a spell belonging to the spell list of a given class, it can't be done?

Oh and the Casting spells chapter, in the choosing a spell section, says wizards you select from all prepared spells.

Right. You know, the spells that a wizard prepares at the beginning of the day?

First you must choose which spell to cast. If you're a cleric, druid, experienced paladin, experienced ranger, or wizard, you select from among spells prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177, and Preparing Divine Spells, page 179). If you are a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.

. . .

Once you've cast a prepared spell, you can't cast it again until you prepare it again. (If you've prepared multiple copies of a single spell, you can cast each copy once. If you're a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven't reached your limit.

The bolded portions are explicit in their meaning that prepared does not mean "it's in your spellbook", but instead that "it's a spell that you spent part of your hour preparing for that day".

Heliomance

2012-02-10, 10:56 AM

you left out a part of that quote though, where it gives a specific page number. I'm sure you're not arguing that you can never use splat spells on a wizard unless they specifically mention that they add to that list? (very few do).

Not to mention that if you interpret that rule like that, you can't use the creating new spells section at all anymore.

Oh and the Casting spells chapter, in the choosing a spell section, says wizards you select from all prepared spells.

Thus yeah you could theoretically make an argument that it doesn't work, but then half the rules don't actually work anymore.

Not sure what you mean by specific page number - I pulled from the SRD, no page numbers involved. And yes, I'm saying that the only splat spells a wizard can learn are the ones explicitly called out as being sorc/wiz spells, which is most definitely not "very few" of them.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-02-10, 11:07 AM

1) Turn into a bear
2) Grapple him
3) Sit on him until his player stops being a strident jerk.

And no, wizards cannot cast Freedom of Movement as a spell (unless they take Arcane Disciple: Luck, which actually wouldn't be a bad feat choice - 9 good-to-great spells with no saves. Admittedly, only four of them aren't on Sor/Wiz anyway, but seeing as how one of those is Miracle, I'll have to remember that). He should probably invest in a ring of it once he can afford it, though.

But seriously, I would just play a melee monster druid and constantly deal the monstrous amounts of damage/eat enemies when you get to high enough level. VoP will make this harder with no Monk's Belt or Amulet of Mighty Fists, but you'll still be better at it than most of the rest of the party.

mikau013

2012-02-10, 12:42 PM

Not sure what you mean by specific page number - I pulled from the SRD, no page numbers involved. And yes, I'm saying that the only splat spells a wizard can learn are the ones explicitly called out as being sorc/wiz spells, which is most definitely not "very few" of them.

I was clearly talking about the phb not the SRD which is different and seeing as splats like spell compendium refer to the phb, the SRD rules are irrelevant for those rules.

Actually, every spell I've ever encountered in any splat book has been explicitly mentioned to be on some spell list or other, usually in a section devoted entirely to such lists. When I look at the Spell Compendium, for example, and I flip to page 261, I see the beginning of a list that says "Sorcerer/Wizard Spells" in the title, which is pretty explicit in that it mentions what they are and what class they belong to. Incidentally, the list also contains all spells that the sorcerer/wizard can cast from the Spell Compendium (and only the spells that a sorcerer/wizard can cast; the spell Lesser Vigor, for example, is not a sorcerer/wizard spell in its spell description on page 229, and thus it does not show up at all on the sorcerer/wizard spell list).

Or are you arguing that all of these spell lists are entirely meaningless? Because I'm not sure that I follow you, here.
Okay, lets look at the spell compendium. As far as I know I can't quote directly from it sadly, but read page #3 in the spell compendium. It states that for the spell compendium spells you need to use the same rules as the rules in the phb.
So lets switch to the phb wizard section for a second.

A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list (page 192).
Sadly the spell compendium spells are not on page #192, so then you can't cast them.

What?

There's only a page in the Dungeon Master's Guide about creating new spells, and it only addresses balance concerns. Are you telling me that you have it in your head that, because the DMG doesn't explicitly state that you can create a spell belonging to the spell list of a given class, it can't be done?

No, I was saying that you don't add researched spells to the classes' spell list, thus you can't technically cast it then if you believe the ruling to say that.

Right. You know, the spells that a wizard prepares at the beginning of the day?

The bolded portions are explicit in their meaning that prepared does not mean "it's in your spellbook", but instead that "it's a spell that you spent part of your hour preparing for that day".

Sorry I don't understand your point here? A wizard can prepare any spell that is in her spellbook no problem and then cast them, that was my point?

Coidzor

2012-02-10, 01:51 PM

Sadly the spell compendium spells are not on page #192, so then you can't cast them.

Opening up my PHB shows that Wizard spells cover 5 different pages. With such an asinine ruling that deliberately tries to break the game, that means there are 4 pages of wizard spells that are simply traps that they cannot cast.

Which, I suppose, is of benefit to you if you can convince the DM that the wizard loses access to most to all of his spells higher than 2nd level and most of his 2nd level spells too. Though that wouldn't really "put him in his place" so much as make him develop the opinion that you cheated.

No, I was saying that you don't add researched spells to the classes' spell list, thus you can't technically cast it then if you believe the ruling to say that.

Considering how little it's fleshed out, you really shouldn't be making such sweeping pronouncements, which are divorced from reason and the game rules. Yes, a wizard could research a version of freedom of movement, but that's entirely between him and the DM, not something he can do by default.

How, pray tell, could player and DM created content be featured in the book? Did you want a little asterisk that lead to a statement to the effect of "homebrew goes here?"

Sorry I don't understand your point here? A wizard can prepare any spell that is in her spellbook no problem and then cast them, that was my point?

Which is a horrible point that does nothing for the game except become an asinine and abusive loophole.

mikau013

2012-02-10, 01:59 PM

Opening up my PHB shows that Wizard spells cover 5 different pages. With such an asinine ruling that deliberately tries to break the game, that means there are 4 pages of wizard spells that are simply traps that they cannot cast.

Which, I suppose, is of benefit to you if you can convince the DM that the wizard loses access to most to all of his spells higher than 2nd level and most of his 2nd level spells too. Though that wouldn't really "put him in his place" so much as make him develop the opinion that you cheated.

Well you know, there was the fact that I didn't actually think that this sentence prohibited the wizard since it would make no sense.

Considering how little it's fleshed out, you really shouldn't be making such sweeping pronouncements, which are divorced from reason and the game rules. Yes, a wizard could research a version of freedom of movement, but that's entirely between him and the DM, not something he can do by default.

How, pray tell, could player and DM created content be featured in the book? Did you want a little asterisk that lead to a statement to the effect of "homebrew goes here?"

It is fleshed out just enough that you can clearly see that you don't add the spells to your spell list, thus if you're reading it like that, that then the rules break down. And no I wasn't talking about researching a version of FoM, I was stating that all research wouldn't actually work then.

Which is a horrible point that does nothing for the game except become an asinine and abusive loophole.
I'm going to have to disagree on this one. It is hardly anymore broken then the spells that are already on the wizard list.

Hirax

2012-02-10, 02:08 PM

I'm going to have to disagree on this one. It is hardly anymore broken then the spells that are already on the wizard list.

So because something is already broken, it's ok to let it become even more broken? To allow wizards to learn non-wizard spells from scrolls is nothing short of insane. Good luck finding many tables that allow that nonsense.

Snowbluff

2012-02-10, 02:18 PM

Getting Aberration Wildshape from LoM and Assume Supernatural Ability can give a bunch of nifty tricks, like extra standard actions from Choker's Quickness (Su)

Tyndmyr

2012-02-10, 02:51 PM

I recently joined a 3.5 DnD group at my college. We were short on players the first week, and so one of the other players invited his newbie friend who had just recently started playing. I can already tell he's one of the "play to win" people. He believes that druids are good for nothing but healing (I'm currently playing a druid). I want to prove him wrong in the worst way. What are the most ridiculous spells possible that I can throw out to show him up?

Wait till he gets into his neck in trouble, then save him.

It will happen. See, people like this generally get overconfident, which is hella dangerous. He can SAY whatever he wants, but if he's the one bleeding out, it doesn't mean much.

Don't get too caught up in it, and play conservatively. Entangle is great, Control Winds is great. A fleshraker or similar companion is great...there's no need to play to your limits to show that a druid can wreck face. Pack lots of power, but use it rarely. Bust it out when in a tight spot, and the wizard has clearly failed.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-02-10, 03:03 PM

Freedom of Movement is not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, therefore Sorcerer and Wizards cannot cast it. They can write it into their spellbook if you are being a grammar fetishist about the rules text, but they have absolutely no reason to do so (except, again, wizards with the Arcane Disciple feat applied to the Luck domain).

Spells from splat books that should be on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list are explicitly listed as such, and are considered appended to the Sorcerer/Wizard list that starts on page 192 of the Player's Handbook 3.5.

Spells that are not listed as Sorcerer and Wizard or "Sor/Wiz" spells cannot be cast by Sorcerers or Wizards normally. One could, however, using the spell research rules, create a spell that emulates the effect of another and does go on the Sor/Wiz list. With in-character time and effort, and DM permission, one could create a custom spell like "Mikau's Wizardly Freedom of Movement" or "O'rama's Wizardly Heal of Noonewantstoplayaclericinthiscampaign", but this would be a homebrew spell that, much like a custom magic item, exists as a set of guidelines for the DM and player to follow.

Coidzor

2012-02-10, 03:08 PM

I'm going to have to disagree on this one. It is hardly anymore broken then the spells that are already on the wizard list.

Then yes, of course your casting is useless if you're playing in a game which isn't playing by the rules but instead an ass backwards re-interpretation of them that whimsically caters to and advantages wizards and lets them get every spell ever, so that they can cherry pick any spells that it'd be worthwhile for your druid to cast. It's not like the wizard is limited by spells per day so that your spell contributions would at least let him cast other spells instead of the ones you can cover.

I mean, really, you guys took one of the best classes in the game and made it so that he can obviate everything that one can do as a druid(or indeed, any class save perhaps psionics), between stealing your spells, replicating your animal companion via dominate effects, necromancy, and planar binding/ally, replicating your wild shape with polymorph and then surpassing it with shapechange.

In such a situation, yes, the wizard is the best class in the game. You've made the Wizard into the Spell-to-Power Erudite. Congratulations, your ruling on the matter makes the objective in the OP impossible, save for taking advantage of his ignorance until he rectifies any ignorance by educating himself.

Edit: I was looking for this thread on relative class power over levels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228852) earlier, the entire thread and the resultant exhibition matches that it spawned would be of interest.

Meant to include it along with the link to the tier system.

Edit2: You're not even the OP. Why are you arguing so vehemently over how they're going to rule it in the game in question anyway?

mikau013

2012-02-10, 03:25 PM

I can't help it that RAW allows wizard to scribe and then prepare and cast spells from other spell lists.

In my home games I don't play RAW though, I doubt anyone actually does.

gallagher

2012-02-10, 03:28 PM

i say react in character. either stop healing him, or ignore his character (i assume that is what an aloof druid would do) or something along the like

or challenge his character to combat against yours in an OOG combat

Helldog

2012-02-10, 03:38 PM

I can't help it that RAW allows wizard to scribe and then prepare and cast spells from other spell lists.

In my home games I don't play RAW though, I doubt anyone actually does.
"A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."

Chronos

2012-02-10, 03:49 PM

If this guy thinks that druids are good for nothing but healing, then he's almost certainly going to play a blaster. Let him. The problem will take care of itself.

Of course, druids are better than wizards at blasting, anyway.

Coidzor

2012-02-10, 03:53 PM

I can't help it that RAW allows wizard to scribe and then prepare and cast spells from other spell lists.

That's precisely what is at dispute, and since this is not pertinent to the OP's game save as a tangent, this should probably go to a different thread to discuss the issue fully.

Sudain

2012-02-10, 04:48 PM

Druids only good for healing?

Remember unconscious targets are always considered willing. Abuse this while he's asleep. Maybe a little poison+delay poison for bonus points, a little disease. Should remind him to play more friendly. Or perhaps help 'protect' him in a wall of stone(sphere) in the middle of combat. And don't dismiss it.

Or perhaps spread lewd rumors about him with the forest animals(Speak with Animals). Find an animal willing to act on it and when he rejects(possibly with firepower) you have IC reasons to get after him for offending nature.

</mean and spiteful>

Talk to him; he may be dense and not realize what he's doing. If he does then then he's interested in a different game than you.

mikau013

2012-02-10, 04:54 PM

Remember unconscious targets are always considered willing. Abuse this while he's asleep.

Uhmmm yeah, this .... uhmmm.... yeah......
If you read this the wrong way, then it might not be appropriate for your game

nedz

2012-02-10, 04:54 PM

Take lots of battlefield control or blasty spells and outplay him as an offensive spell caster. This has the advantage of teaching him a lesson without creating inter-party strife.

Alternatively play your character exactly how you want to and just ignore him.

You could take counter measures: Having an animal companion capable of grappling would be good if he tries to man-handle you again.

Madara

2012-02-10, 05:10 PM

As long as he doesn't demand healing or claim "you're not doing your job", its fine. Depending on the reason for adventuring together(classic party doing it for money?) you might charge money for healing, saying its not part of what you were going to do for the group when you joined.

Anyways, :smallsigh: don't worry. Those types don't normally last long without changing, so just don't let him learn about true CharOp, he'll stay in blissful ignorance, and you'll live in :smallcool:"I RP a druid, because druids don't need your so-called 'power'":smallcool: land.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-10, 05:13 PM

I was clearly talking about the phb not the SRD which is different and seeing as splats like spell compendium refer to the phb, the SRD rules are irrelevant for those rules.

I...

What?

Okay, lets look at the spell compendium. As far as I know I can't quote directly from it sadly, but read page #3 in the spell compendium. It states that for the spell compendium spells you need to use the same rules as the rules in the phb.
So lets switch to the phb wizard section for a second.

Sadly the spell compendium spells are not on page #192, so then you can't cast them.

Oh, of course! Why, how could WotC have not had the foresight to put all of the splatbook spells released in future publications on page #192 of the Player's Handbook? Why, every time they released newly published content, they should have rushed to the printing press as quickly as possible and released a new version of the Player's Handbook that includes the new spells from the splatbook that they just published on page #192 of the Player's Handbook, just so we could eliminate this confusion.

(Just so we're clear here--I opened up my Spell Compendium to page #192 and saw two Wizard spells on that exact page: Slide, Greater and Slow Burn. Since they're on page #192, am I allowed to cast those?)

No, I was saying that you don't add researched spells to the classes' spell list, thus you can't technically cast it then if you believe the ruling to say that.

I don't need my clothes to have a label saying "WEAR THESE" to know that I need to put them on my body for them to be useful to me.

Sorry I don't understand your point here? A wizard can prepare any spell that is in her spellbook no problem and then cast them, that was my point?

I...

Wow.

There are just no words.

So because something is already broken, it's ok to let it become even more broken? To allow wizards to learn non-wizard spells from scrolls is nothing short of insane. Good luck finding many tables that allow that nonsense.

Fixed that nasty typo for you. :smallwink:

ShriekingDrake

2012-02-10, 05:32 PM

I would also encourage you to consider the Friendly Fire spell from EoE. Fantastic spell that will also protect you should he try to retaliate in game. What makes it so good is not only that it address attacks from a distance, but it can be cast at instantly, should you need it.

dsmiles

2012-02-10, 05:39 PM

I...

What?
Exactly.

Oh, of course! Why, how could WotC have not had the foresight to put all of the splatbook spells released in future publications on page #192 of the Player's Handbook? Why, every time they released newly published content, they should have rushed to the printing press as quickly as possible and released a new version of the Player's Handbook that includes the new spells from the splatbook that they just published on page #192 of the Player's Handbook, just so we could eliminate this confusion.LOL.

So, I'm trying to understand the whole...thing...going on here. The sorcerer/wizard spell list on page 261 of the Spell Compendium is...invalid? Or the sorcerer/wizard spell list in every splatbook that has spells? The only valid list in the one in the PHB that was written prior to all the splatbooks? (Or, at least, that's what I'm getting from the whole thing. That just seems...I don't know...um...not right?) Why are they not valid lists? Can someone explain this to me?

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-10, 06:34 PM

Exactly.

LOL.

So, I'm trying to understand the whole...thing...going on here. The sorcerer/wizard spell list on page 261 of the Spell Compendium is...invalid? Or the sorcerer/wizard spell list in every splatbook that has spells? The only valid list in the one in the PHB that was written prior to all the splatbooks? (Or, at least, that's what I'm getting from the whole thing. That just seems...I don't know...um...not right?) Why are they not valid lists? Can someone explain this to me?

They aren't valid lists because someone is smoking something they shouldn't be smoking. At least, as near as I can tell. If the Spell Compendium is in play, than of COURSE it is a valid list of sorcerer/wizard spells!

dsmiles

2012-02-10, 06:42 PM

They aren't valid lists because someone is smoking something they shouldn't be smoking. At least, as near as I can tell. If the Spell Compendium is in play, than of COURSE it is a valid list of sorcerer/wizard spells!
Sorry for the confusion. I should have added [dripping sarcasm]...[/dripping sarcasm] tags around that post. :smallwink:

Though I'm really trying to figure out why someone would think that. It's completely illogical.

Elboxo

2012-02-10, 07:00 PM

Next time he says anything, grapple him immediately after combat.

Then sit on him and make him say whatever your heart desires.

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-10, 07:04 PM

Sorry for the confusion. I should have added [dripping sarcasm]...[/dripping sarcasm] tags around that post. :smallwink:

Just make the color blue. that's the sarcasm color around here.

Coidzor

2012-02-10, 09:36 PM

As long as he doesn't demand healing or claim "you're not doing your job", its fine. Depending on the reason for adventuring together(classic party doing it for money?) you might charge money for healing, saying its not part of what you were going to do for the group when you joined.

That's just going to punish the other party members.

Unless you're talking about getting them to chip in on the party's wands of CLW, which should be purchased from party funds anyway.

The Glyphstone

2012-02-10, 09:37 PM

That's just going to punish the other party members.

Unless you're talking about getting them to chip in on the party's wands of CLW, which should be purchased from party funds anyway.

Unless you only charge him.

Snowbluff

2012-02-10, 09:57 PM

Next time he says anything, grapple him immediately after combat.

Then sit on him and make him say whatever your heart desires.

This works best in Bear form. You can't talk, but you'll find a way to get your point across.

I did this once. I had a whole conversation with someone in Bear form. Granted, he thought I was offering the sandwich I was waving around (and clumsily eating), but everything turned out fine.

Well, for me anyway. :smallcool:

Lord.Sorasen

2012-02-10, 11:43 PM

This works best in Bear form. You can't talk, but you'll find a way to get your point across.

I did this once. I had a whole conversation with someone in Bear form. Granted, he thought I was offering the sandwich I was waving around (and clumsily eating), but everything turned out fine.

Well, for me anyway. :smallcool:

You ate the party psion?

~Nye~

2012-02-11, 12:09 AM

rmg22893

2012-02-11, 12:33 AM

Cast contagion and laugh as he dies puking on his constitution points.

No but seriously, we have a power gamer like him in our group at the moment. Don't sink to his level, is he roleplaying badly? Or just not even roleplaying? I mean there is always a douchebag in any party, boromir LotR, Raistlin in Dragonlance and Citan Uzuki in Xenogears. The best thing I'd suggest is roleplaying some payback? Steal his spellbook and teach him manners? If the feeling is mutual in your group that he is ruining your game just melt his face. To be quite honest depending on the character I was playing I'd do a number of things.

If I was DMing for a wizard like that, I'd just have a bunch of cowled wizards show up and say he's been using unsanctioned magic ;D Just sayin'.

Well, we avoided an ambush by some bandits. Later on, we encountered some bandits. After subduing them, I tried to ask them if they were the ones spying on us. As I was saying it, the guy starts yelling and trying to shut me up, saying he was going to cover my mouth in game (while he was standing twenty feet away). He then proceeded to drag away one of the bandits (even though he's a gnome, and wouldn't be able to drag him anyway), and questions him to see if they were the ones whose ambush we avoided.

It's not like it was crucial or anything, I just had a passing interest as to whether they were the same bandits.

Snowbluff

2012-02-11, 01:23 AM

You ate the party psion?

Lol. Yes, but that was on a different occasion. He got to live threw the first time.

Calanon

2012-02-11, 01:23 AM

Well, we avoided an ambush by some bandits. Later on, we encountered some bandits. After subduing them, I tried to ask them if they were the ones spying on us. As I was saying it, the guy starts yelling and trying to shut me up, saying he was going to cover my mouth in game (while he was standing twenty feet away). He then proceeded to drag away one of the bandits (even though he's a gnome, and wouldn't be able to drag him anyway)

If the bandit starts raping the wizard this story is getting a little to familiar... :smallconfused:

and questions him to see if they were the ones whose ambush we avoided.

Ah nevermind...

OT: Rape the wizard... I'm not even joking i was exactly the same way towards Clerics and now I use Theurges because I learned the value of Divine casting and Arcane casting... Unfortunately i learned it the HARD way...